Punctured wings [Archive]

Charlie99

June 25th, 2003, 05:30 PM

Josh Levinson once bubbled...
Hi everyone,

With respect to the whole issue of single vs. double bladder wings, how often do wing punctures occur? How many of you guys have had them or heard of them happening? I know the bladders in the new Halcyon wings are made of ballistic nylon and are super tough and all that, but what about punctures in the inflator hose? How many of you have had that happen or heard of it happening? Thanks a lot.

Josh Is the problem punctures or seam leaks? IIRC, Halcyon has had seam sealing problems and a super tough outer cover doesn't solve that problem. In real life, I believe seam leaks are much more common than punctures. Diving a nasty wreck might change that ratio, though.

If it is puncture you are worried about, consider that anything that what pokes through one bladder will probably go through the second one also (the dual bladders I'm familiar with just have two bladders in the same outer cover).

Yet another consideration is that, if you connect inflators to both bladders, you have doubled your risk of inadvertant inflation and runaway ascent.

Scubaroo

June 25th, 2003, 05:44 PM

Charlie99 once bubbled...
Yet another consideration is that, if you connect inflators to both bladders, you have doubled your risk of inadvertant inflation and runaway ascent. I believe most dual-bladder divers leave the backup disconnected for this very reason.

NetDoc

June 25th, 2003, 06:20 PM

bungeed wing. Never needed to hook up the second (even with bungees). I only hook up one inflator hose at a time so I never have the run away issue refered to. For that fact, I didn't have the run away deflation that everyone is so worried about either.

padiscubapro

June 25th, 2003, 06:39 PM

Josh Levinson once bubbled...
Hi everyone,

With respect to the whole issue of single vs. double bladder wings, how often do wing punctures occur? How many of you guys have had them or heard of them happening? I know the bladders in the new Halcyon wings are made of ballistic nylon and are super tough and all that, but what about punctures in the inflator hose? How many of you have had that happen or heard of it happening? Thanks a lot.

Josh

a more likely scenario is the inflator becomming disconnected from the bladder.. I HAVE seen this happen.. the person went to dump some gas and all the gas dumped (the seal internally was broken at the connecton point) all gas he tried to put in the bladder came right out.. it was a "h" product that many swear by..

I also had a bladder fail several years back with a pull dump, I pulled and it came right off... I could have swam my rig up it was only an al80, but I was already in the habit of backup bladders (back to back) and just moved the inflator hose and finished the dive...

BigJetDriver

June 25th, 2003, 07:13 PM

Charlie99 once bubbled...
If it is puncture you are worried about, consider that anything that what pokes through one bladder will probably go through the second one also (the dual bladders I'm familiar with just have two bladders in the same outer cover).

Yet another consideration is that, if you connect inflators to both bladders, you have doubled your risk of inadvertant inflation and runaway ascent.

I would have to agree with the first part. Anything sharp enough to puncture the ballistic nylon cover will probably keep right on going. Hopefully you can then dump some of your weights, or use your drysuit as an emergency back-up.

I have never seen an inflator just take off all by itself, with no activation at all. If anyone knows of an actual case of this happening, I would like to know! Even if connected, if you don't use it, it is still just a back-up.;)

Scubaroo

June 25th, 2003, 07:15 PM

BigJetDriver69 once bubbled...
I have never seen an inflator just take off all by itself, with no activation at all. If anyone knows of an actual case of this happening, I would like to know! Even if connected, if you don't use it, it is still just a back-up.;) I've seen a former buddy's Air2 leak air into the wing throughout a dive. Certainly wasn't in danger of "runaway inflation" though - just an annoyance that he had to keep dumping.

metaldector

June 25th, 2003, 10:25 PM

A few weeks ago we let a guy from out of state join us for a dive. He said that three days previously he had been diving. When we got into the water he couldn't submerge because his wing was full of air. He dumped it and started down only to pop back to the surface with a full wing. After two more trys we aborted the dive and inspected his Octoplus and could hear the air inflating the wing. He disassembled and reassembled the unit four times but it wouldn't stop. After leaving him on shore, we continued our dive. I don't know what caused this problem, I never saw the guy again, but a runaway inflator does happen.:hmmm:

globaldiver

June 25th, 2003, 10:58 PM

I have never had a punctured BC bladder, but once had a failing dump valve on a DiveRite Rec wing.

Luckily I was diving in my dry suit, which at that time worked fine as a redundand boyancy device, and enabled me to safely abort the dive.

That is one of the reasons I like to dive dry.

Anders

Genesis

June 26th, 2003, 07:04 AM

had a leaking BC bladder on his dive a couple of days ago...

He didn't realize it was leaking, but I could see the bubble trail clearly.... told him about it on the boat and he said "hmmmm... now that you mention it I did need to add air a couple of times down there." :wacko:

It does happen.....

tyrell

June 26th, 2003, 07:10 AM

Several weeks ago during a deep dive, the inflator got sucked in a way that if the inflator hose was connected it was in constant flow and when disconnected the wing could not hold the air inside, and all the air got leaked out. :wacko:

I switched to the second blade and completed the dive as planned.

It was possible to complete the dive without using the second wing but since it was a Trimix dive with no bottom actually it was there somewhere very deep, and I was not planning to visit it in this dive. My first thought after i disconnected the hose from the inflator after it went into free flow and got out the extra air from the wing was 'thank god i have the second wing so i don’t have to worry balancing myself ' this dive was complex enough without adding the equipment problems.

The second wing is a backup, u can do without it but its a safety item that its important to take. What i have learned during the years that u don’t play with the backup and the safety, eventually u will need them and it will happen when its mostly unexpected.

cheers
mark

DA Aquamaster

June 26th, 2003, 08:43 AM

I have never punctured a wing but did have a faulty dump valve/OPV that stuck on itself (turns out it was the subject of a recall). It was placed low on the wing however and still allowed a normal ascent. Similarly the location of the puncture is a factor and often a little body positioning to keep the leak at the low side will allow some semblance of a normal ascent.

Doppler

June 26th, 2003, 09:00 AM

I am not sure that there is any real data out there to prove or disprove arguements about wing failure.

I have approximately 2100 dives on wings... three pairs... and have never had a puncture, tear or seam failure. Among a peer group (my dive buddies) I recently conducted a survey (it's one of the things my company does) and discovered that in more than 15,000 "technical dives" there had only been two cases of inwater wing failure... both due to bad storage practices and both discovered during surface SDrill pre-dive procedures.

Based on this data (which I admit is far from complete) wing failure simply is not a priority issue and double bladders are -- IMHO -- are a waste of space, time and money. As well, they over complicate the issue of redundant floatation.

However, I am facinated by the circumstances of the dive cited a couple of post previously... Mark can you please explain why the air leaked after you had disconnected the free-flowing inflator?

Thanks

***PROVISO... I dive dry***

NetDoc

June 26th, 2003, 09:38 AM

Please eludidate... especially on the first two. How can it be a "waste of space" when they both fit fine in the same wing? I have even less of an idea how you get the notion that they will "waste time". How? Then you might compare prices of dual bladder wings with single bladder as well. Probably not that great of a difference. But then, price should never be the sole issue that determines your gear set-up.

Just because you don't dive them, doesn't mean you shouldn't. Just because you don't understand them, doesn't invalidate their use by those who do. If you learn how to configure and dive a dual bladder correctly then all of these "negatives" are non-issues, and the second bladder brings redundancy (a good thing) into your diving. But of course, if you have never dove one or dove with someone who really knew how to configure them, then I can see why you guys have all of the mis-conceptions about them. I get the same treatment from dive operators who see my long hose... they just don't understand it, because they have never opened their eyes to the possibility.

That being said... most of my diving does not require dual bladders. But when the need is there (wreck penetration, etc) I use them.

Doppler

June 26th, 2003, 11:47 AM

NetDoc once bubbled...
Please eludidate... especially on the first two. How can it be a "waste of space" when they both fit fine in the same wing? I have even less of an idea how you get the notion that they will "waste time". How? Then you might compare prices of dual bladder wings with single bladder as well. Probably not that great of a difference. But then, price should never be the sole issue that determines your gear set-up.

Just because you don't dive them, doesn't mean you shouldn't. Just because you don't understand them, doesn't invalidate their use by those who do. If you learn how to configure and dive a dual bladder correctly then all of these "negatives" are non-issues, and the second bladder brings redundancy (a good thing) into your diving. But of course, if you have never dove one or dove with someone who really knew how to configure them, then I can see why you guys have all of the mis-conceptions about them. I get the same treatment from dive operators who see my long hose... they just don't understand it, because they have never opened their eyes to the possibility.

That being said... most of my diving does not require dual bladders. But when the need is there (wreck penetration, etc) I use them.

Jeez: what did I say to deserve this?
I certainly DID NOT say "you shouldn't dive them." I don't know who you are or where you dive. How can I presume to know what you should and should not dive. I DID say IMHO they're a waste...

I also would like to to explain what you mean by "YOU GUYS" since I'm not sure what guys I am part of in your world... do you mean guys who dive a single bladder or what?

And as far as your comment about never trying it, the opinions I have and that I teach and that I promote are based on experience my friend... experience and a desire to make the passage of others through the quagmire of learning a little more straighforward.

Many years of diving all over the globe has opened my eyes to more than you can image. I wish you enlightenment DOC and suggest a little less caffine

Doppler

Charlie99

June 26th, 2003, 11:48 AM

Doppler once bubbled...
... Mark can you please explain why the air leaked after you had disconnected the free-flowing inflator?Without LPI hose disconnected, hold down the button of the inflator to simulate a free-flowing inflator. Does air trickle back out of the male end of the LPI connection? It does on mine.

The quick disconnects automatically close the female end (the one on the hose), but leaves the male end (the one on the BC) open.

This means that, if you have a stuck inflator button and continue the dive after disconnecting the LPI hose, you will have to periodically add air to your BC because it will trickle out backwards through the stuck inflator.

Doppler

June 26th, 2003, 12:12 PM

Charlie99 once bubbled...
Without LPI hose disconnected, hold down the button of the inflator to simulate a free-flowing inflator. Does air trickle back out of the male end of the LPI connection? It does on mine.

The quick disconnects automatically close the female end (the one on the hose), but leaves the male end (the one on the BC) open.

This means that, if you have a stuck inflator button and continue the dive after disconnecting the LPI hose, you will have to periodically add air to your BC because it will trickle out backwards through the stuck inflator.

OK: I think I understand the situation you were in... (Later note: no, you're not Mark!!!) And I think trickle is the correct verb to use. I would have to simulate the situation over a long dive to find out the full effect. I do practice the "drill" of uncoupling the LP hose from my wings -- dealing with the free-flowing inflator -- and then orally inflating the wings 'til NBuoyancy is attained.... or course during the disconnect I'm purging gas from the inflator to make the simulation "more realistic" and the oral inflation is usually a needed step :(

I have swum around with the hose disconnected for a while and haven't noticed much air loss... but as I said, I'm gonna have to try this one in situ with the mechanism in "free-flow" open mode... (wonder if duct tape would work?)

I've had stuck inflators before.... oh, lordy... I have had a stuck inflator... usually due to service issues. I found "purcussive maintainence" worked as a temporary fix!

OK, so if I understand it, in the situation you described, you were then able to go over to your "back-up" wing system... new wing, new inflator, new situation?

Did you drain the first wing or did it drain itself?

Still have me doubts -- :D -- but if we all dove exactly the same gear, what the H**L would we talk about?

Oh, I know... wrecks and caves and critters... but that's another forum isn't it!

Take care Mark

Doppler

cornfed

June 26th, 2003, 02:05 PM

Doppler once bubbled...

Jeez: what did I say to deserve this?

And from a "Senior Regulator" none the less...

NetDoc

June 26th, 2003, 04:35 PM

if you do that, then we might as well ALL stop posting!!! Your post seems to indicate that I have called you some horrendous name or insinuated some level of incompetence, when all I am asking for is clarification. Please don't ask me to merely accept your opinion as valid without any corroborating logic and/or proof.

You made a statement I have heard numerous times, and still no one will "splain it to me". I.E.
IMHO -- are a waste of space, time and money.
You did a great job pointing out how unfair my question is and how I have dumped all over you... but you never did answer me. IMHO's are great... and humility is a quality sadly lacking in our sport, but I would like to believe that you have some reasoning behind your stance. Please tell us what that reasoning is so I won't assume that you are merely regurgitating what another has said.

Now go back and re-read the second paragraph. I never said you haven't dove a double bladder wing. I said... that I could understand you (or anyone) having many misconceptions if you had not dove with one, or if you had not been taught how to configure one properly. I don't know your level of experience is, and frankly do not care, but if the shoe fits wear it. You have chosen to take exception with someone who has merely asked you to explain yourself... and just what am I to deduce from that???

In the immortal words of an infamous former Georgian Governor: "Quit pussy-footin' around and answer the dang questions!"

And no, I won't make any condescending statements like "a little less caffeine", and I will try to NOT assume what you meant ( I will ask), and I will do my level best to not read more into your post than warranted.

BTW your response has brought two more questions to mind...
1) Have you ever dove a dual bladder wing? (Be honest)
2) Has anyone shown you how to configure it properly, or did you just assume there was only one way to do it? (If yes, who was it?)

And don’t forget these three standing questions…
3) How (in your opinion) are “dual bladder” wings a waste of space?
4) How (in your opinion) are “dual bladder” wings a waste of time?
5) How (in your opinion) are “dual bladder” wings a waste of money?

I am waiting your humble yet cogent reply.

ScoobieDooo

June 26th, 2003, 05:06 PM

Talk about nickpicking...

Doppler

June 26th, 2003, 05:34 PM

NetDoc once bubbled...

SNIPPY BITS SNIPPED

BTW your response has brought two more questions to mind...
1) Have you ever dove a dual bladder wing? (Be honest)
2) Has anyone shown you how to configure it properly, or did you just assume there was only one way to do it? (If yes, who was it?)

And don’t forget these three standing questions…
3) How (in your opinion) are “dual bladder” wings a waste of space?
4) How (in your opinion) are “dual bladder” wings a waste of time?
5) How (in your opinion) are “dual bladder” wings a waste of money?

I am waiting your humble yet cogent reply.

OK I really have to get back to cleaning the garage, so this'll be fast

Yes I have dove a double bladder... it made it harder to get into small spaces on wrecks and hurt the back of my neck.

Yes several people have shown me different ways to configure it. They all seemed overly complex because I had a spare ****ing inflator in the way. AND in any event, it doesn't offer a solution to a common problem... or even one that's likely. I stand a better chance of winning the lottery... Hummmmmm.

Space. All the models I have seen are bigger than my 55# wing. IF there's a smaller one and it only has one inflator then the space issue is taken care of and I'll withdraw my objection.

Time... well, I'm wasting it now when I should be working on the garage. Other than that, the process of deploying a second bc in an emergency is what... please describe it and I will see how your method compares with my perception of it and I'll try to point out where the time is wasted.

Money. Double wings are more expensive and a cost benefit analysis does npt come out favorably.

did I miss anything.

By the way. I am a practicing Buddhist. I like wishing people enlightenment!

OH, and experience... didn't you ask about that... well, I have a little. Read my earlier posting... I do think my past and varied experiences both in water and buying unnecessarily complicated equipment qualifies me to have an opinion. Could be wrong and maybe I should keep quite. But of course, that's against one of the fundemental precepts of my belief.

Doppler

Not GUE. Not DIR. But Hogathian and beginning to understand. :rolleyes:

DA Aquamaster

June 26th, 2003, 06:45 PM

I understand the concern about air leaking out of an LPI fitting with no hose attached. This depends on the inflator. Some of the better designs include a seat that closes the fitting off when the inflator button is not pushed which effectivley prevents any air from leaking back out of the inflator. It's easy to check by filling your BC just short of activating the overpressure relief valve and disconnecting the PL hose. If there are no leaks the BC or wing will stay firmly inflated. If it does not stay inflated you have leak somewhere and if it is where the LP hose attaches - buy a better inflator.

If you dive a drysuit, a dual bladder BC arrangement is doubly redundant as the drysuit is the primary source of lift and the BC itself is a backup.

Most leaks are going to be very small and of no real consequence during the dive. Again, the only serious problem I have ever had was a malfunctioning dump/overpressure valve. And then it only leaked in a horizontal position so moving to a vertical position placed the valve at the bottom of the BC where it no longere mattered if it was water tight and allowed a safe ascent.

The only exception to this that I can think of was the Watergill AT PAK which was essentially a late 70's vintage wing and backpack with weight integration. (pretty cutting edge for the time) It incorporated an OPV the inflator hose that really was inadequate to the point that in a rapid ascent you could potentially blow the seams on the wing. Still despite it's limits, I dove one for years and it was a welcome relief when back inflation and wings came back into style.

Braunbehrens

June 26th, 2003, 06:56 PM

Well, I understand now why this happened to you. You have heard of Karma, right?

LOL!

Hope you don't take this comment the wrong way. People keep pigeonholing me...and well, let's move on to the actual discussion.

Wing failures.

I am aware (having witnessed, been told or read about) several wing failures.

2 spontaneous wing inflations due to 1st stage hp seat failure. In one or both (don't remember) this also blew the 2nd out of the guys mouth.

1 spontaneous wing inflation due to junk getting stuck in the valve. I wasn't there, I was told about it. I asked a couple times, "did you touch the inflator" and the guy said, "NO, the bc just inflated by itself". Don't ask me how this is possible, but please take note if you have dual bladders and hook them both up.

A few seam failures...but we're talking a trickling of gas which didn't even warrant aborting the dive. These were on Halcyon wings, and AFAIK they have dealt with the problem. Note that these were all on the single tank wings, which are a different design (just one bladder, no outer covering).

One pull dump coming off in the guys hand. This was on a rental BC, and I was in the store when the guy brough it in. The owner made him pay for the repair!!!

I personally dive a single wing Halcyon. I had a bungy wing but it creates too much drag, a smooth surface is much better. I don't like dual wings, because they are unnecessary. A balanced rig will allow you to easily deal with a wing failure, especially if you dive dry.

Another issue with a hooked up second wing is that it may inflate very slowly, and you may not realize it's happening until you start to be too light...then you have to figure out WHICH of the two is causing the problem etc.

IMO, this falls under the KISS rule.

....and no, I"m not trying to tell anyone how to dive....y'all can do whatever you want, including horse collars and J valves.;)

PS Most inflator hoses don't have a big flange. If anyone knows of a place where one can get custom size hoses with big flanges on the connector I'd be greatful for the info. When that thing inflates, you don't want to fiddle around.

padiscubapro

June 26th, 2003, 07:17 PM

DA Aquamaster once bubbled...

If you dive a drysuit, a dual bladder BC arrangement is doubly redundant as the drysuit is the primary source of lift and the BC itself is a backup.

The drysuit buoyancy thing is taught to OW divers (who cant manage multiple auir spaces), its generally not the preferred method for tech divers..

The amount of gas necessary in many (not all cases) make diving the drysuit as the primary buoyancy (even emergency buoyancy) unconfortable , unsafe (those who dive this way usually get gators).. Personally I don't think a drysuit is a good backup bouyancy device period.. I would use it as a 3rd backup (before I used a liftbag).. the reason being the amount of gas thats generally necessary for heavier configs especially on shell type suits has a big gas bubble moving around.. in many cases if the diver goes head up, the neck seal vents and the diver gets wet and loses alot of buoyancy.. this is especially true on dives that going up an anchor line is necessary (and to be head up at times) so you can pay attention what is above you..

Doppler.. the only inflator attachment I have seen that could give you a head ache is halycon, everyone else puts the attachment off to the side so you just put the two bladders on opposite each other a stow the second inflator somewhere.. even along the tank is ok...

NetDoc

June 26th, 2003, 07:26 PM

We have more in common than you think... (and probably less than I think)

I am not DIR/GUE, but also dive a Hogarthian rig when I dive doubles.

I have a garage that needs attention, but am wasting time here!

As for space... my 100# OMS is the infamous bungeed style, so it has never stopped me from entering a hole or doorway. They have never snagged my either. The inflator and hose are always bungeed on the right side when this wing is used. It has never gotten in my way. For most of my doubles diving though, I use a 55# non-bungeed wing.

The "deployment" of the second bladder is pretty simple. First, off if there is any issue with the left bladder (including a run-away valve) it is quickly disconnected. The right inflator is simply bungeed to the wing in such a fashion that a quick pull gets it free and then I either inflate it orally or plug it in (with a hose running from the left regulator). After neutrality has been established, I will stick the left inlator under a bungee to keep it out of the way and to reduce confusion. Once redundancy has been violated, the dive is ended in the safest possible manner.

Most scuba "emergencies" need thought more than time. If you remain clear headed enough, you can think your way out of just about any predicament. Panic is your worst enemy under water. I will agree with you that it's not gonna happen very often. I punctured my bladder once, and it was anything but catastrophic (even with them thar dangerous bungees). Sure I had to add air here and there, but I had figured it was my error until I surfaced and my buddy showed me where I was leaking. A wing is a wing. I would not stop diving a particular wing because it had a double bladder. Other issues like age and integrity are far more important.

Oh yeah... thanks for answering! I hope I answered yours fairly.

Doppler

June 27th, 2003, 06:46 AM

NetDoc once bubbled...
SNIPPED

As for space... my 100# OMS is the infamous bungeed style, so it has never stopped me from entering a hole or doorway. They have never snagged my either. The inflator and hose are always bungeed on the right side when this wing is used. It has never gotten in my way. For most of my doubles diving though, I use a 55# non-bungeed wing.

MORE SNIPPING

My issue concerning space IS based on experience and has to do with wing profile I guess. Here's what happened.

There's a wreck in Lake Ontario I used for wreck penetration classes. The forward compartments where good for initial practice. One year, wearing a newly purchased pair of bungee 100# wings, I found passage through doorways that with a single wing was easy, were now a struggle. And in fact I had to turn sideways to achieve entry.

The mention of neck strain with regard to the bungee was that the pair I owned bunched up behind the head making it very hard to look forward when horizontal.

Coupled with the space thing, I realised that the design and function of this style of wing, didn't suit MY needs, and a benefit analysis (conducted using MY criteria) came out negative. I sold them and got another set of single bladder... I think that pair were original OMS... whatever, pre Halcyon Days (I have always wanted to use that phrase in a diving context!!)

Couple of years later I was teaching a student from Michigan -- who's on this board -- and she suffered from the same "ailment." I lent her a single bladder (it was the original Halcyon with the offset flange PadiScubaPro) and her pain disappeared.

More recently, I've noticed students with bungeed wings have a bit more of a challenge with some of the buoyancy and attidude skills compared to how they do when lent a single bladder. Of course that's a subjective assessment.

However, that said. I do not "forbid" a student from using a bungeed wings in a class... I do sometimes find that by the end of it though, they're buying something else. :D ... AND I do not understand the "Wings of Death" comments. As previously stated, I think their a waste of space, time and money, but fail to see how they cause death... I can see how they might contribute to confusion.

COUPLE of COMMENTS

Braunbehrens: Of course I've heard about Karma... that's why I'm still here dealing with other people's suffering:rolleyes:

PadiScubaPro: good catch on the drysuit as primary buoyancy thing. I am getting more and more people turning up for training who start off using this technique. Man they have trouble with the basic techniques sessions!

Dive safe... and remember, I don't care what wings you use, just dive safe.

Doppler

DA Aquamaster

June 27th, 2003, 09:12 AM

padiscubapro once bubbled...

The drysuit buoyancy thing is taught to OW divers (who cant manage multiple auir spaces), its generally not the preferred method for tech divers..

I think my statement has been taken to mean more than was meant. If you have a dry suit you have a fixed amount of bouyancy from the air required in the suit to keep it warm and you will need to maintain this throughout the dive. You are going to have to manage this air volume regardless and unless you ahve avery heavy set up, most of the bouancy is still going to come from the suit..

Now I agree completely that too much air in the suit hard to manage and will vent out the neck seal at what is normally the most inopportune times. Obviously with heavier configurations such a stage bottles, and in particular steel stage bottles if you use them, you will have to augment the lift in the suit with air in the wing.

I don't agree that a drysuit does not make a good backup under any circumstances. Yes, you have to watch the vertical positioning to keep from venting air out the neck, but it is better than some of the other options and in my opinion better than carrying a redundant aircell on all of your dives that will in all likelyhood never be used.

Doppler

June 27th, 2003, 11:37 AM

DA Aquamaster once bubbled...

I think my statement has been taken to mean more than was meant.

Happens all the time around here... don't worry about it=-)

Braunbehrens

June 27th, 2003, 01:04 PM

Someone mentioned new drysuit divers having trouble with controllign multiple air spaces. The easiest way to dive a drysuit is with the shoulder dump open all the way. Simply shrug once in a while if gas accumulates around the shoulders, but other than that, and occasionally adding a squirt of gas, it's not much different from wetsuit diving.

IMO that's actually easier than using the drysuit for buoyancy even for people just learning with a drysuit.

Just my opinion, of course....

DA Aquamaster

June 27th, 2003, 05:34 PM

Doppler once bubbled...

Happens all the time around here... don't worry about it=-)

Actually, I am rather impressed with scuba board as a whole. Even with the diverse opinions that float around, it stays remarkably civil in here. That says a lot about the quality and charactor of the members.

Braunbehrens

June 27th, 2003, 07:48 PM

DA Aquamaster once bubbled...

Actually, I am rather impressed with scuba board as a whole. Even with the diverse opinions that float around, it stays remarkably civil in here. That says a lot about the quality and charactor of the members.

Speak for yourself!

;)

cornfed

June 27th, 2003, 07:53 PM

padiscubapro

June 27th, 2003, 10:38 PM

DA Aquamaster once bubbled...

I think my statement has been taken to mean more than was meant. If you have a dry suit you have a fixed amount of bouyancy from the air required in the suit to keep it warm and you will need to maintain this throughout the dive. You are going to have to manage this air volume regardless and unless you ahve avery heavy set up, most of the bouancy is still going to come from the suit..

Now I agree completely that too much air in the suit hard to manage and will vent out the neck seal at what is normally the most inopportune times. Obviously with heavier configurations such a stage bottles, and in particular steel stage bottles if you use them, you will have to augment the lift in the suit with air in the wing.

I don't agree that a drysuit does not make a good backup under any circumstances. Yes, you have to watch the vertical positioning to keep from venting air out the neck, but it is better than some of the other options and in my opinion better than carrying a redundant aircell on all of your dives that will in all likelyhood never be used.

I guess its how you are taught and what type of drysuit you have..

I dive with a dui, and use absolute minimum volume of gas in it.. I just add enough to stop squeeze so I have very little lif and very little issues to deal with on ascent.. In my case its a good thing.. I normaly dive an inspiration where you must manage the lung volume or you get very buoyant very quickly, plus the bladder/wing the last thing I want to manage is my drysuit..

BYW with a stock inspiration I only dive with 6lbs of lead behind my head to offset the pos buoyancy of the lungs... This is with TWO layers of polartec, and hood, gloves...

People who learned to dive with their drysuit for buoyancy and go on to tech diving generally have to learn their skills all over.. They generally do terrible on the skill drills... especially removing and replacing the entire rig underwater..

tyrell

June 30th, 2003, 06:09 AM

Doppler

What happened is like this.When u press the inflator button it got stuck ( doesnt go in or out) in a way that it constantly adds air to the wind.
when u disconnect the hose , the button still remains stucked. and there is a clear passage of air from the wing to the male connector.
If u try to inflate the wing by mouth, all the air will go out from the male connector since there is less pressure in there.

U can simulate this whole situation by pushing the inflator button half way and and hold it while trying to use the mouth inflator.

btw, the wing is Zeagle. and this is the first problem with the inflator after something like 1000 hours of diving.

regards
Mark

kingprawn

June 30th, 2003, 07:02 AM

My wing has never leaked. I did develop a large hole in my corogated hose. At the time I was diving in Cozumel, and did not need air in the wing at all. I only noticed the problem when waiting at the surface.

OK, here is my question to you all. If you only need enough lift to counter negative bouyancy due to:

1) weight of compressed air
2) compression of the suit (wet only)

How much do you really need?

And another question:
Rather than use a double bladder wing, couldn't you just deploy a lift bag in the event of a puncture? Since you already have one (and practice with it regularly).

For NetDoc: no, I have never dived a double bladder wing, and don't know anyone that does. The lift bag is my backup plan. I was just wondering if it made sense to others.

cornfed

June 30th, 2003, 07:24 AM

kingprawn once bubbled...

Rather than use a double bladder wing, couldn't you just deploy a lift bag in the event of a puncture? Since you already have one (and practice with it regularly).

I know IANTD teaches this. I've never done it but I image it can be a chaotic ride and one of those skills which if you don't practice regularly won't help when you need it.

Cornfed

DA Aquamaster

June 30th, 2003, 09:30 AM

kingprawn once bubbled...
OK, here is my question to you all. If you only need enough lift to counter negative bouyancy due to:

1) weight of compressed air
2) compression of the suit (wet only)

How much do you really need?

I agree entirely and that has pretty much the point I have been pursuing. I think in many respects the issue of using the suit versus the wing is one of semantics if not outright dogma given that with proper weighting and no extra weight from stage tanks, deco bottles etc, there is just no need for air in the wing. If their is, you are over weighted.

Sure, if you need more lift for your configuration than a normally inflated suit can provide, use the wing - and this is a reality of technical diving. But if you don't need the extra lift, then don't use the wing. I cannot see the purpose of imposing technical techniques on open water divers who don't need them and worse, that may encourage or accomodate overweighting that is already a poor technique that is endemic among dry suit divers. Just because it is right for tech diver does not make it appropriate for the rest of the diving community. (or even for a tech diver on an non-technical dive.)

I am not opposed to good ideas, evolution in technique, or changing how I do things, but it's important to remember that while good change is good, change for the sake of change isn't.

If a new idea or technique does not offer any advantage over what is already standard and only increases task loading, why make the change?

kingprawn once bubbled...
The lift bag is my backup plan. I was just wondering if it made sense to others.

I carry alift bag on every dive and backup bouyancy is one of the reasons, but not the primary or even secondary reason I do so. It really is in my opinion though a last ditch backup for bouyancy.

The good news is that a total failure of a wing would be rare. With a little thought to positioning, most of the time the wing would be capable of trapping some air somewhere even with a gaping hole. And with a small leak, a normal ascent is possible with the lift bag being coming in handy for hanging during deco.

padiscubapro

June 30th, 2003, 10:25 AM

kingprawn once bubbled...
My wing has never leaked. I did develop a large hole in my corogated hose. At the time I was diving in Cozumel, and did not need air in the wing at all. I only noticed the problem when waiting at the surface.

OK, here is my question to you all. If you only need enough lift to counter negative bouyancy due to:

1) weight of compressed air
2) compression of the suit (wet only)

How much do you really need?

And another question:
Rather than use a double bladder wing, couldn't you just deploy a lift bag in the event of a puncture? Since you already have one (and practice with it regularly).

For NetDoc: no, I have never dived a double bladder wing, and don't know anyone that does. The lift bag is my backup plan. I was just wondering if it made sense to others.

Using a lift bag for backup buoyancy is a difficult skill. it has to be practiced regularly, and the deeper you start the greater potential for disaster.. An important point is that the lift bag must have some form of manual dump.. Without it even dumping an open bottom bag is difficult without chancing dumping all your buoyancy..

for someone "rusty" at the skill they are probably better off shooting the bag to the surface and reeling themselves up the line (assuming your line is heavy enough).. Its not easy but a much less likely chance of a run away ascent, plus it can alert the boat where you are and something "may" be abnormal. I would prefer send up a bag to create an upline (which you secure) and use another bag to go up.. at worse case you can let go of the bag you are using and still have something to hang onto..