Dive Flags and Boat Diving

[Scuba Duffer]

I did a search for this info nut I have come up empty. 2 questions:

1. Does anyone know what the minimum size requirement for a dive flag flown from a boat in Ontario is?

2. What do people think about diving from a boat as a buddy team with no one onboard. Is there a law that prohibits this.

The reason I ask is that my wife and I want to do some local dives this summer in Georgian Bay and Lake Simcoe. We have both been certified for 1 year and are both AOW. Certainly nothing technical but we want to keep our skills current and practice our emergency drills. We have a 24ft Doral that we spend a few weeks on each summer.

[Butch103]

.......I can't answer most of your question , but only add this.....we routinely dive and leave the boat unattended. We fly a dive flag on the boat and tow another with us......

[seahunter]

There is no stipulated minimum size for the divers flag. Obviously there is a practical minimum size - there's no point having one if it's not visible. As a guideline, the most common size or standard size is 20" square.

It is illegal to leave a anchored boat unattended. This is an MOT regulation not a diving rule.
It wouldn't be the first time if you came back to the surface and found your boat missing - stolen, confiscated or drifted away.

[SneakyB'tard]

Power Boat Flag chart

Boat Length Size of Club Signal, Marine flag
up to 18' 10x15" flag
19 to 24' 10x15" flag
25 to 30' 12x18" flag
31 to 36' 16x24" flag
37 to 48' 20x30" flag
49 to 60' 24x36" flag
61 to 72' 30x48" flag

I can't remember the source, I think it may be USCG...may be wrong

[DivingGal]

One boating course info (http://www.boaterexam.com/Training/manual1.html) In this course, they mention the size of a dive flag on a bouy but not a boat.

Coast Guard Office of Boating Safety (http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/obs-bsn/main_e.htm)

and here's the SAR Seamanship Manual (http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/sar/nsm-msn/pdf/SAR_Manual_e.pdf) which also has info.

[Groundhog246]

seahunter once bubbled...
It is illegal to leave a anchored boat unattended. This is an MOT regulation not a diving rule.
It wouldn't be the first time if you came back to the surface and found your boat missing - stolen, confiscated or drifted away.

Since when? I've been boating a long time and have never heard of any such law. I was also not aware that MOT (provincial gov't dept) had any authority over boats, especially on the great lakes. There's little difference between a mooring and an anchor, except the weight (moorings are generally much heavier than anchors) and the scope of the rode (anchors usually have a lot more scope) and there are lots of boats that spend most of the summer hanging on a mooring, including one that belongs to a friend who moors in front of his cottage near Beausoleil Island. We have anchored and swam or gone ashore numerous times and have been observered doing so by OPP patrols (including the one that stopped us to check that we had the required safety equipment aboard the dinghy) but no mention was ever made about leaving an anchored vessel unmanned.

On the other hand, leaving a boat unattended at anchor, is not always a good idea either. It does leave it open to loss or theft. Anchors can drag if not set correctly. Visitors may steal the entire boat, or just strip valuables such as the electronics and any wallets left aboard. And a 24 foot boat can be towed away with a 10 foot dinghy with an outboard.

[GTADiver]

In the legislation there is a difference between a mooring and anchoring. An unattended vessel in US waters is allowed to be salvaged.

From a safety perspective it makes sense to have someone on the boat while your in the water that can operate the boat and knows how to use a radio. Maybe Tom R can expand on this but I recall an incident a couple of years ago near Ducks where a father and son were doing a dive (with Mom on board) only to come back up the line to find their boat was gone. Mom did not know how to start the boat or even which wreck her husband and son were on when she was picked up by a freighter. It was hours before these two were plucked up by another boat.

From a customer's perspective on a charter boat it is frustrating to arrive at a dive site and find a zodiac tied up to a wreck's mooring line with no one in the boat. You have to sit there and wait for them to finish their dive whereas if there was someone on the boat then you could have them tie off to the larger boat.

[Bubble Boy]

Scuba Duffer once bubbled...
I did a search for this info nut I have come up empty. 2 questions:

1. Does anyone know what the minimum size requirement for a dive flag flown from a boat in Ontario is?



A rigid replica of the International Code flag "A" not less than 1 metre in height is the minimum size for an alpha flag under the collission regs which state:

Rule 27

Vessels not under Command or Restricted in their
Ability to Manoeuvre

(a) A vessel not under command shall exhibit:

(i) two all-round red lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen,

(ii) two balls or similar shapes in a vertical line where they can best be seen,

(iii) when making way through the water, in addition to the lights prescribed in this paragraph, sidelights and a sternlight.

(b) A vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre, except a vessel engaged in mineclearance operations, shall exhibit:

(i) three all-round lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these lights shall be red and the middle light shall be white,

(ii) three shapes in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these shapes shall be balls and the middle one a diamond,

(iii) when making way through the water, a masthead light or lights, sidelights and a sternlight, in addition to the lights prescribed in subparagraph (i),

(iv) when at anchor, in addition to the lights or shapes prescribed in subparagraphs (i) and (ii), the light, lights or shape prescribed in Rule 30.

(c) A power-driven vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course shall, in addition to the lights or shapes prescribed in Rule 24(a), exhibit the lights or shapes prescribed in subparagraphs (b)(i) and (ii) of this Rule.

(d) A vessel engaged in dredging or underwater operations, when restricted in her ability to manoeuvre, shall exhibit the lights and shapes prescribed in subparagraph (b)(i), (ii) and (iii) of this Rule and shall in addition, when an obstruction exists, exhibit:

(i) two all-round red lights or two balls in a vertical line to indicate the side on which the obstruction exists,

(ii) two all-round green lights or two diamonds in a vertical line to indicate the side on which another vessel may pass,

(iii) when at anchor the lights or shapes prescribed in this paragraph instead of the lights or shape prescribed in Rule 30.

(e) Whenever the size of a vessel engaged in diving operations makes it impracticable to exhibit all lights and shapes prescribed in paragraph (d) of this Rule, the following shall be exhibited:

(i) three all-round lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these lights shall be red and the middle light shall be white,

(ii) a rigid replica of the International Code flag "A" not less than 1 metre in height. Measures shall be taken to ensure its all-round visibility.

(f) A vessel engaged in mineclearance operations shall, in addition to the lights prescribed for a power-driven vessel in Rule 23 or to the lights or shape prescribed for a vessel at anchor in Rule 30 as appropriate, exhibit three all-round green lights or three balls. One of these lights or shapes shall be exhibited near the foremast head and one at each end of the fore yard. These lights or shapes indicate that it is dangerous for another vessel to approach within 1 000 metres of the mineclearance vessel.

(g) Vessels of less than 12 metres in length, except those engaged in diving operations, shall not be required to exhibit the lights and shapes prescribed in this Rule.

(h) The signals prescribed in this Rule are not signals of vessels in distress and requiring assistance. Such signals are contained in Annex IV.

[Scuba Duffer]

And all we wanted to do was some recreational diving in very quiet remote spots around Georgian Bay.

Makes you realize that sometimes your better off just doing what you want to do. We have often left our boat unattended while we canoe to other areas - never had a problem - never lost my anchorage.

Thanks for the info!!

[Butch103]

But don't think there was a clear answer, other than I know that it is Transport Canada that sets the rules........

[Scuba Duffer]

Bubble Boy once bubbled...


A rigid replica of the International Code flag "A" not less than 1 metre in height

Can you imagine - 1 metre in height?? that would make the standard flag about 3 x 6 feet! Guess I'm gonna need a bigger flag pole!:rolleyes:

[Groundhog246]

Found this addendum:

A vessel engaged in diving operations may or may not be restricted in her ability to maneuver. A salvage vessel with "hard hat" divers down - supplied with air from pumps on the surface - is definitely restricted in her ability to maneuver and should show the lights of Rule 27(d) or (e). On the other hand, a dive boat with free-swimming SCUBA divers in the water is definitely not restricted and should not show the signals of Rule 27(e). Such a craft should fly the "diver's flag" (red with one white diagonal stripe) that signifies "Divers in the water - keep clear." This flag is not a part of the Navigation Rules, but is widely used and is legally required by many state and local authorities.

Note that Rule 27(e) specifically requires "a rigid replica" of the International Code flag "A"; preferably, this would be two or more in a cruciform configuration so that it could be seen from any direction. All too often, vessels are seen flying the cloth flag - this does not meet the requirement of the Rules.

So you you don't need the lights. And you may not require rigid 1M code A flag. (hands up those that know what an "Alpha" flag looks like.

And this:

Any vessel at anchor may, and vessels of 100 or more meters in length must, show deck or working lights to increase her visibility to other vessels. A vessel made fast to a mooring is "at anchor." A vessel dragging its anchor is not "made fast to the bottom" and, therefore, is not a vessel at anchor, but rather a vessel underway.

So an anchor and a mooring are the same under Canadian and International regulations.

And I found this too at http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/n-22/ :

Abandoned vessel
20. When any vessel or other thing is wrecked, sunk, partially sunk, lying ashore or grounded in any navigable water in Canada, the vessel and its cargo and every part thereof or other thing shall be deemed to be abandoned at the expiration of two years after the date of the casualty and, thereupon, the Minister may, under such restrictions as seem fit to the Minister, authorize any person to take possession of and remove the vessel or other thing for that person's own benefit, on giving to the owner, if known, one month's notice and, if the owner is unknown, public notice for a similar period in a local paper published nearest to the place of the vessel or other thing.

If you can't touch a grounded or sunk vessel for 2 years, I hardly think a vessel at anchor is fair game. I vessel abandoned and afloat IS fair game for salvage, so make sure your anchor/mooring is secure.

[Scuba Duffer]

Thanks a lot Groundhog - that's exactly what I was looking for. So, basically common sense prevails. I'll fly my little 18" flag and go for a swim!!

We just bought our tanks yesterday and after a year of diving and about 30 trpoical dives, hopefully this afternoon will be our first foray into the fresh stuff. Just a quick dip in Lake Simcoe for a fresh water boyancy check and to brush the dust of the skills!

[DivingGal]

I sent a quick note off to the Ontario Government, and this is the response I got (the answers in italics):

If a boat is used for scuba diving, can all the people on the boat go diving - leaving the boat unattended? Or is one person required by law to stay on board?
A boat should never be left unattended.

When using the diver down flag (the red with white diagonal), is there a minimal size?
There is no minimum size mentioned, but the flag must be visible.

Should both the Alpha flag (blue & white) and the diver down flag be used when divers are in the water?
Generally the diver down flag alone is accepted.


For more information you should be contacting:

ACUC (American Canadian Underwater Certifications) International
Bob Cronkwight, President
379 West Street
Brantford ON N3R 3V9
Tel: (519) 750-5767
Fax: (519) 750-5771
E-mail: bob@acuc.ca
Web: http://www.acuc.es/indicee.htm [/i]

[Groundhog246]

DivingGal once bubbled...
If a boat is used for scuba diving, can all the people on the boat go diving - leaving the boat unattended? Or is one person required by law to stay on board?
A boat should never be left unattended.

Most boaters will agree that a boat "shouldn't" be left unattended, but they don't appear to quote any law against it.
I think there may be some rules against anchoring in a marked channel and certainly if you anchor where you're not allowed, it may be removed.

[wetman]

I've always gone by the common sense that if i can tie it to shore i'll leave it, but i wouldnt leave it in open water. People leave their boats tied to docks or land all the time and its usually quite secure. However, I've always thought that out in the open a large wave could dislodge things much more easily and potentially set the boat adrift where it becomes a hazard to others not to mention the potential for not having a boat to come up to.

steve

[DivingGal]

Groundhog246 once bubbled...
Most boaters will agree that a boat "shouldn't" be left unattended, but they don't appear to quote any law against it.

I caught that too. But as I don't have a boat and not about to do this, for those interested should contact Bob Cronkwight for clarification.

I agree with both you and Tinman, I think leaving a boat unattended in "open water" is asking for trouble if the boat is set adrift accidentally or on purpose as I've heard from some -- though that could be an "urban legend".

[Butch103]

............I do leave my boat unattended. It is however in a small lake, securily anchored with two anchors, usually very close to shore. I can understand being far more cautious in larger bodies of water and/or rivers and/or heavy current situations.

Caution and care are always best.

[thomas4r]

I'm new to the board, but here's my two cents worth. I've been diving since 1989, and I do not leave any boat unattended at anchor. Here in Texas, we only go off shore or to a couple of lakes near Austin to dive, so it is rather dangerous to leave the boat without supervision.

Anyway, if you are diving in a small to medium sized lake, and plan to do so regularly, maybe a small diving kayak is in order. You can get one that has paddle power, or upgrade to one with a small outboard. Either way, you can both dive from it, and use it as your dive float as you drag it with you. No laws bent, no real risk of theft (even a dumb thief can see your bubbles and notice the flag), and you will never have to swim back to your boat when you surface. Just a thought.

thomas4r

[D M I]

k

[jrg]

How do you figure a boat is "unattended" when the owner is diving below it? If that makes it unattended, and if doing so is somehow illegal, does this mean I can't jump in to remove a rope tangled in the prop unless someone else is on board?

[Doppler]

jrg once bubbled...
How do you figure a boat is "unattended" when the owner is diving below it? If that makes it unattended, and if doing so is somehow illegal, does this mean I can't jump in to remove a rope tangled in the prop unless someone else is on board?

No, I don't think anyone would suggest that you would be leaving a boat unattended if you were engaged in freeing the prop.

I think the regulations read leaving a boat unattended in a navigable channel... which of course makes sense.

The issue to do with diving is probably more likely to be the one where a boat is tied to a mooring buoy and left unattended. This is NOT a sound practice since other boats may come along -- perhaps charter boats whose captains help finance the placement of siad buoy -- and have to 1/ wait a distance of 100 feet off until divers return from the boat... there would be a dive flag flying, correct? Or 2/ navigate to the buoy, and tie in without disturbing the abandoned vessel... not easy and I have seen charter operators simply untie small boats take them in hand and call the coast guard. Not saying that's neighbourly, but one can see their point, I think.

[D M I]

I know for a fact that in the Caribbean dive destinations, leaving about un attended while down for a dive with a dive flag flying is the norm and has been so for 65 years, and this should be just common sense amongst you divers, but I find you Canadians very anal about such things always trying to improve the situation only to find out you just screwed it up even more. "DON'T TOUCH WHAT YOU DON'T OWN" especially if its tied off, you may end up with a bloody nose if you do.

D M I

[Kevin R]

At the Alexandria Bay SCUBA expo last winter, the USCG rep said that if a boat was moored, flying a dive flag and unattended they would leave it alone unless it posed a hazzard to shipping. Of course that doesn't say what the CCG or anyone not of sound conscience will do.

Anyone else know what the CCG regs are on this?

Kevin