Diving in Japan is #$%% frustrating...

[Antarctic-Adventurer]

Unfortunately a slight rant follows. But I feel it is very justified. (For the record I have lived in Japan for 6 years, speak good Japanese (日本語能力試験1級) and have experience dealing with the Japanese so I am not a fresh, clueless gaijin).

I have long avoiding diving in Japan because of all the negative stories I heard. But finally I took the plunge a couple of weeks ago and went diving in Wakayama Prefecture in Kansai.

Unfortunately diving in Japan is ridiculous. Somehow the Japanese have managed to kill the whole spirit of diving as only they could. Not only is it over-priced, but almost all diving shops never dive longer than 40 minutes. (If you ask why, they will tell you it is dangerous to do so.. "We don't do decompression diving, longer than 40 minutes is dangerous. Do you even have a licence?"). I eventually found a place that would let me do 50-60 minute dives after phoning over 15 dive shops. Most just said "muri" (impossible).


To make matters worse, unfortunately in my experience the Japanese make some of the worst divers I have ever seen as well. I headed out in Wakayama with a group of ten Japanese divers in two groups.
All the Japaneses divers had very little awareness. It was really sad. Clambering all over the reef, lying on it, touching it, breaking it with no clue. Even the instructor with 5000 dives wasn't much better. It really annoyed me. They had no buoyancy control whatsoever but all had DSLR cameras and cases. (many $000's worth of gear). They silted up the bottom and kicked half the things that they'd photographed when moving onto the next thing to see. It may be a cultural difference but it didn't impress me to say the least. I was saddened. Please tell me that this isn't common?? I haven't dived with that many Japanese but so far has all been this way...:shakehead: Anyone with more experience care to comment?

I should add that as individuals all these people were really friendly and nice people. Afterwards we all had a good time filling in the logs and joking around, so it was nothing personal at all. But their diving....omg.

(I have heard that Okinawa is different though and much more laid back. Don't know if it is true or not... )

I really hope my experiences are an exception rather than a rule, but I was taken aback frankly... :depressed:

It has taken the enthusiasm out of diving here for me a little. There is some good news though...
I am flying to the Philippines on Saturday for two weeks of diving. ;)

[japan-diver]

I have been diving in Japan for over 15 years along with diving all over the world. The Japanese are no worse divers than anyone else. Now some of the practices you see in Japan are a bit frustrating- shorter dives, only guided diving. You can avoid some of this by coming to Okinawa - we do longer dives, shore diving without a guide is common and for the most part we are a bit more relaxed. If your guide was unskilled then I would say that is uncommon as most of the dive guides I have dove with in Japan are highly skilled divers. Don't let one bad experience in Japan turn you off from diving here as Japan has some of the best diving in the world. Come visit us down south or I can recommend some great shops up in Tokyo area to dive with.

[Antarctic-Adventurer]

I have been diving in Japan for over 15 years along with diving all over the world. The Japanese are no worse divers than anyone else. Now some of the practices you see in Japan are a bit frustrating- shorter dives, only guided diving. You can avoid some of this by coming to Okinawa - we do longer dives, shore diving without a guide is common and for the most part we are a bit more relaxed. If your guide was unskilled then I would say that is uncommon as most of the dive guides I have dove with in Japan are highly skilled divers. Don't let one bad experience in Japan turn you off from diving here as Japan has some of the best diving in the world. Come visit us down south or I can recommend some great shops up in Tokyo area to dive with.

Thanks for your input. I will give it another try perhaps..

You say that Japan has some of the "best diving in the world". Where exactly are you referring too? That is quite a claim to make.

I do hope that the level of individual diving really is better than what I saw as you say. It was not good trust me, ;)

I will try a different group and see what I find. Still, being told by most people I have encountered that diving more than 40 minutes is "dangerous" and "decompression diving" is bizarre and sums up for me what the attitude seems to be here.
I even heard it is illegal to own your own compressor in Japan without a licence. Is that really true?

[japan-diver]

The list of spots is very long- the Keramas has some of the most diverse reefs and marine life found anywhere. Ishigaki- manta rays galore, Yonaguni- schooling hammerheads, whalesharks, awesome reefs. Okinawa main island WW II wrecks and reefs to match anywhere else the list goes on.

Owning a portable personal compressor does not require a license but for anything that is used for selling air does need a license. There are tech diving shops in Japan but it is a new thing here so decompression diving is still relatively new but it is done. The shorter dive times are not exclusive to Japan as I have run into them in other areas where shops are more concerned about money than customer satisfaction.

Up north you have more problems diving as the fishing co-ops exert a huge amount of control over access to the ocean- we do not have that problem down south.

[Antarctic-Adventurer]

The list of spots is very long- the Keramas has some of the most diverse reefs and marine life found anywhere. Ishigaki- manta rays galore, Yonaguni- schooling hammerheads, whalesharks, awesome reefs. Okinawa main island WW II wrecks and reefs to match anywhere else the list goes on.

Owning a portable personal compressor does not require a license but for anything that is used for selling air does need a license. There are tech diving shops in Japan but it is a new thing here so decompression diving is still relatively new but it is done. The shorter dive times are not exclusive to Japan as I have run into them in other areas where shops are more concerned about money than customer satisfaction.

Up north you have more problems diving as the fishing co-ops exert a huge amount of control over access to the ocean- we do not have that problem down south.

Thanks for the info. Basically what you are saying is come to Okinawa! OK, I shall put it on the list and get myself down to Ishigaki and Yonaguni. Although we are heading into winter now, is it still possible to dive between now and April next year? Which operation are you associated with? (I have snorkelled Zamami a few years ago and that was impressive I'll be honest).

Yeah the fisherman exacting a tribute out of everyone as though they are sea-pirates gets tiring real fast... Glad to hear Okinawa is a lot better.

[japan-diver]

We dive year round down here- the coldest the water temps get here in the winter is usually 21-22C in Okinawa and a bit warmer in Yonaguni. In Jan-Mar we have migrating whales off Okinawa/Kerama and schooling hammerheads in Yonaguni. Follow the link in my sig line to see the shop and info. We are based on the main island of Okinawa.

[Jax]

When we dove in Cozumel in Mar 2009, the dive crew and others in the boat echoed japan-diver. They said the Japanese were really careless with the marine environment. The guide said they give a special briefing to the Japanese, often with a translater, explaining they would have to report the tourists' carelessness if they were careless. I liked hearing it.

[Antarctic-Adventurer]

We dive year round down here- the coldest the water temps get here in the winter is usually 21-22C in Okinawa and a bit warmer in Yonaguni. In Jan-Mar we have migrating whales off Okinawa/Kerama and schooling hammerheads in Yonaguni. Follow the link in my sig line to see the shop and info. We are based on the main island of Okinawa.

OK Thanks. I will check it out. Maybe I can come diving early next year.

When we dove in Cozumel in Mar 2009, the dive crew and others in the boat echoed japan-diver. They said the Japanese were really careless with the marine environment. The guide said they give a special briefing to the Japanese, often with a translater, explaining they would have to report the tourists' carelessness if they were careless. I liked hearing it.

Don't you mean they echoed Antarctic-Adventurer? ;)

[jagfish]

Next time you're planning to be up in the Tokyo area, drop us a line...

Jim

[Kevrumbo]

Thanks for your input. I will give it another try perhaps..

You say that Japan has some of the "best diving in the world". Where exactly are you referring too? That is quite a claim to make. <snip>


The Ogasawara Islands (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/zen-divers/190145-ogasawara-trip-report.html)

[japan-diver]

Forgot to list those - amazing diving, especially when the sperm whales are in. Just a pain to get there 20+ hour ferry from Tokyo

[RikRaeder]

Japan-Diver; just curious...are you Japanese?

Antarctic-Adventurer; I usually dive with Japanese shops (here and in Saipan) and must say I'm not impressed either. I've been to Okinawa twice, and had the misfortune to get stuck with two of the worst shops I've ever dived with. I'm sure that there must be SOME good shops down there, but I won't be returning to find out.
The shop I use in Saipan gives me more leeway than they do with most of their (Japanese) clientel so no complaints about that shop. It's actually cheaper for me to fly down there for a week, stay in a hotel and dive then to do 15 dives up here.
As to deco diving, I'm fortunate enough to have a tech-oriented shop about twenty-minutes walk from my apartment. The staff are pretty on-the-ball with the exception of one non-tech guide who had to spy hop three times to get our group back to the exit point.
Overall I've been underwhelmed myself (although Jagfish's training looks pretty neat...just way too inconvenient for me down here in Nagoya with no car).

[japan-diver]

Not Japanese just lived here for 19 years.

Missing out on some good diving by skipping Okinawa- wrecks, reefs, drift dives. Lots of great stuff.

[RikRaeder]

I know, but I won't make it back down before I pull out of here and if I do I WON'T go with a J-Shop. Haven't been in the neighborhood of any non-J shops.

[moose_grunt]

I hear you about it being frustrating! I started a thread (how to dive the non japanese way) about trying to get around these frustrations, and it seems rather difficult if you're not in Tokyo (seems there are a few foreign-run shops there, including at least one tech diving outfit), or Okinawa. I'm stuck with max 25 m or max 40min dives as well, and trying to rent a tank (or get your own filled) is the same as trying to rent their grandmother for the night....

Best advice I've gotten about it all is to treat diving here as practice, and take a nice long vacation once or twice a year. I have been a lot less frustrated since--diving here has become like diving in the quarries at home...

[japan-diver]

I have dove all over Japan and in places I see your frustration and understand it. But with a little research you can find the shops that will allow you to dive the way you want. If you come down to Okinawa we are located in Chatan just a few minutes from the airport.

[okiraku_diver]

but almost all diving shops never dive longer than 40 minutes. (If you ask why, they will tell you it is dangerous to do so.. "We don't do decompression diving, longer than 40 minutes is dangerous. Do you even have a licence?"). I eventually found a place that would let me do 50-60 minute dives after phoning over 15 dive shops. Most just said "muri" (impossible).

I do not know why most of diving shop said "muri"(impossible). However if you have dive computer, you can dive computer profile, that means you can dive more than 1 hour. I always dive more than 1 hour with divers from outside Japan in Okinawa. I hope you can find nice diving shop in Japan. Please do not be disappointed.

Regarding taking camera of novice divers, NOT only Japanese, but same in everywhere. I took photo of American girl at -30ft who had camera during open water training.

When we dove in Cozumel in Mar 2009, the dive crew and others in the boat echoed japan-diver. They said the Japanese were really careless with the marine environment. The guide said they give a special briefing to the Japanese, often with a translater, explaining they would have to report the tourists' carelessness if they were careless. I liked hearing it.

NOT ONLY Japanese diver who are careless, but same in everywhere. I am a frequent traveler to Cozumel and took DM and AI training at Aqua Safari, Cozumel, and dove with so many nice U.S. divers there. At pre diving briefing on DM training, I told "This is a national marine park, please do not touch, catch, take anything in water!" However I was disappointed with a U.S. diver who sit on, break, kick soft coral at Paradise Reef.

And most of Japanese divers can not understand English, but this is same for U.S. divers coming to Japan. I translate and make briefing in English even though dive as a guest.

[Antarctic-Adventurer]

I do not know why most of diving shop said "muri"(impossible).

Well I would like to know too but it is what they said and I tried many different dive shops in the Kansai area. I even got a Japanese friend to phone for me in the end in case it was a "gaijin" thing but the answers were exactly the same. Very few dive shops that I have seen even entertained the idea, although I have found one. Worse still, most implied to me that doing longer dives was "dangerous" which is obviously not true. If you stay within your limits and are not very deep for long you can easily spend over an hour underwater and be within ND limits.

However if you have dive computer, you can dive computer profile, that means you can dive more than 1 hour. I always dive more than 1 hour with divers from outside Japan in Okinawa. I hope you can find nice diving shop in Japan. Please do not be disappointed.

Where are you located? I will come and dive with you... I am trying to be positive about it, but just when I started inquiring about diving here, everything just seemed to be made a lot harder than it needed to be. I haven't dived in Okinawa though, so maybe that will chance my mind. I hope so. Most of my negative impressions have been in the Kansai region where I live.


Regarding taking camera of novice divers, NOT only Japanese, but same in everywhere. I took photo of American girl at -30ft who had camera during open water training.



NOT ONLY Japanese diver who are careless, but same in everywhere. I am a frequent traveler to Cozumel and took DM and AI training at Aqua Safari, Cozumel, and dove with so many nice U.S. divers there. At pre diving briefing on DM training, I told "This is a national marine park, please do not touch, catch, take anything in water!" However I was disappointed with a U.S. diver who sit on, break, kick soft coral at Paradise Reef.

And most of Japanese divers can not understand English, but this is same for U.S. divers coming to Japan. I translate and make briefing in English even though dive as a guest.

You are of course correct that there are unaware divers in many places, I am not just saying it is Japan, sure. But I have noticed that there seems to be less environmental awareness here in Japan than where I am used to. (I have never dived in the US, I am not from there so can't comment on Caribbean tour divers).

Anyway thanks for your input. Let's hope I can get some great experiences diving here while I am still living in Japan! :cool2:

[Robert Gillcash]

Wow. After reading this thread I am amazed! I know that the majority of Japanese go to Okinawa to dive, now I know why. I guess I picked the right wife when I married my Okinawan Wonder woman!
As a Canadian I am kind of in between the Japanese 'natives' and the American Forces divers (not in a negative way...). It seems I get great service no matter where I go in Okinawa. The dive shops all have treated me great, wehter Japanese owned or American owned. Everybody is super friendly.
Just so you know, I have been to Okinawa 6 times now and have dived as much as possible each time. The Kerema Island are dream dives. When I owned a boat (former city) I named it the "Kerema Isle". Wow they are great.
My last visit was in December 2008 thru to Jan 2009. I dove in a 3mm diveskin with a hood and boots - the water was an incredibly cold (HAH) 19C. (Recently spent 73 minutes in 8C water here in B.C. during my IDC.)
I guess what I am trying to say is this: Get to Okinawa, you will NOT regret it. If you are primarily English speaking there are several dive shops on the island that can help you. Most, if not all, shops have someone who can speak english.
Two trips ago I did an boat dive with SeaSir, they treated me like a King. I had my own English speaking DM and everybody on the boat, staff and guest, were happy to meet me.
Yeah, go Oki. You'll never go back.

[okiraku_diver]

Well I would like to know too but it is what they said and I tried many different dive shops in the Kansai area. I even got a Japanese friend to phone for me in the end in case it was a "gaijin" thing but the answers were exactly the same.

I am sorry to response so late. I have spent holidays in Maldive and dive with German and U.K. divers there.

Well, I guess diving shop denied just because language problem and safety reason. A lot of Japanese divemasters can not speak foreign language, so it is difficult to make briefing before diving. However,I as a guest, have dove with so many divers from foreign countries in Okinawa area.

Anyway thanks for your input. Let's hope I can get some great experiences diving here while I am still living in Japan!

I am so glad if you know that Japanese divers welcome you.
Happy diving in Japan.

[Antarctic-Adventurer]

I am sorry to response so late. I have spent holidays in Maldive and dive with German and U.K. divers there.

Well, I guess diving shop denied just because language problem and safety reason. A lot of Japanese divemasters can not speak foreign language, so it is difficult to make briefing before diving. However,I as a guest, have dove with so many divers from foreign countries in Okinawa area.



I am so glad if you know that Japanese divers welcome you.
Happy diving in Japan.

Well actually I got my Japanese friend to phone up so they didn't even know that it wasn't a Japanese who wasn't diving with them. But anyway I am sure I will find some good people to dive with. Thanks!

[Geoff_H]

I've dived with a dozen or more dive shops around Japan, and didn't have anything like the problems you've had Antarctic-Adventurer. Most dives have been 45 minutes to an hour, depending on depth/nitrogen loading and conditions (temperature, current etc)... although I have seen poorly skilled divers here, I've also seen them everywhere else I have dived too.

Could be a Kansai specific problem I guess, I have never dived in that region - I think I have about 200 dives in Japanese waters - mostly Kanto and Kyushu/Okinawa as well as two a couple of trips out to Ogasawara (technically Kanto I believe!!)

[Jonnyspecial]

Sorry, replying to this string a bit after the fact:

I've been living in and diving in Japan for 12 years - I started diving after getting here.
I've gone from OW to 2Star Instructor [CMAS], with a lot of diving - fun and work-related - in Japan or with Japanese tourists when I was travelling in Asia-Pacific or where ever.

I'm very fluent in Japanese, have permanent residency here, and my wife is Japanese, so I clearly don't have a racist bone in my body. Really, I don't!!! :->

As a result, I read all the previous posts on this topic with interest.

I have found Japanese to be both very risk-adverse and very groupist - as a result, one finds them in closer groups, close to the guide, and behind the curve when it comes to developments that _might_ [or should! :->] be considered risky, like nitrox, tech, cave, deco, etc.

Risk-adverse means a greater use of guides and greater dependence on the guide than I've found diving in other Asian countries or Canada. Perhaps this is why AA found some shops offered shorter dives, the thinking being "why dive to the dive table's margins?"

To be clear, I've never experience a shop that preferred a 40 minute dive for the reasons AA explained. I'm just suggesting another take on the subject.

When you have a group in which the members are gathered too closely together, coral gets bumped or stepped on, heads get bumped with tanks, masks get finned off, and so on.
That I _have_ experienced/observed [I had my mask finned off in Palau when diving with a large group of Japanese...] when diving as a tourist.

As a result, I've found it best to get off the boat first to put a bit of space between myself and the group and hang a bit off to either side, or enter last, again hanging off to either side. Entering with the group is not the best thing.

So I share AA's frustration with a bad dive experience.

I've also found a generation gap - a lot of the ol'timers still set up their gear like it was 20,30 years ago, with gauges dangling, cigarettes in their mouths until putting on their fins on the transom/beach, and a little less ecoawareness than is currently the norm.
Conversely, I've found younger divers to be "on par" with current norms.

Concerning commercial supply of air, I think I prefer knowing that the person filling my tanks passed a standardized set exam in order to pump what is going into my body.

Finally, as an instructor and while guiding, I feel I've helped my clients, of any nationality, to learn good eco-friendly dive practices, and I hope that when I'm travelling as a tourist, my hopefully ecofriendly actions speak louder than words.

Cheers,
Jonathan

[Jonnyspecial]

One more point, this about dive times:

During the couple of years I was instructing/diving in Tanegashima, Kagoshima Pref [where the rocket launch center is located] we often dove at Urata Beach, one of the top 88 in Japan.
It is a beautiful, sheltered bay with 100s of varieties of flora/fauna after a white sand entry, and relatively shallow - 6-9m in most parts - so our dive times were often 80-90 minutes.
An amazing place to dive long, relaxed dives.

At one point, AA wrote: "If you stay within your limits and are not very deep for long you can easily spend over an hour underwater and be within ND limits."

I suggest you hit the books and review your dive tables - you'll never have enough air [on a single tank, certainly] to last long enough to exceed NDL on shallow dives.

Anyway, if anyone dives with me, they get as long in the water as they want as long as they have enough air, they won't exceed NDLs, and their training meets conditions which are, in turn, acceptable.

Cheers

[Antarctic-Adventurer]

One more point, this about dive times:


At one point, AA wrote: "If you stay within your limits and are not very deep for long you can easily spend over an hour underwater and be within ND limits."

I suggest you hit the books and review your dive tables - you'll never have enough air [on a single tank, certainly] to last long enough to exceed NDL on shallow dives.



Hi Jonny,

thanks for your reply. Good to hear another's take on diving here.

One thing though, you picked me up for something I said and then said the same exact thing! Perhaps you misread my statement. I said "and be WITHIN limits". I.e. I realise that you don't have enough air to exceed the limits on a shallow dive with a single tank. I can get around 100 minutes out of a 12 litre tank with a normal profile down to 25m with the final 30 minutes around 10m on a good day. But once you come shallower than 10m, naturally you have a long, long time down there ;)

[Jonnyspecial]

AA,

Sorry for the misread.
I hope you get the great dives your looking for.:cool2: