Dive Tables. A thing of the past?

[BlueKnight]

Hi everyone.
Had a very interesting converstion with my dive instructor a few weeks ago. Apparently he was asked to take part in a servey about abolishing teaching dive tables in PADI open water and teaching how to use dive computers instead :shocked2:

I dont know about you guys but both myself and the instructor were gobsmacked as we certainly dont want to stop learning tables or how to plan dives with tables no matter how good or reliable computers may become. I am a gadget freak and you realy dont want to know how many ascent alarms I have in my kit:D but I still make a point of working my pressure group out after each dive just to keep in practice. As a newb I dont want to get caught out when a shark eats my computer and I cant do a second dive to get my arm back:rofl3:

Not sure if this has been brought up before but it would be interesting to see what everyone thinks and if this is true that PADI may change their training.

Kind Regards BK

[ZapDiver]

:popcorn:

[AfterDark]

You want to know what people think about this go here:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/advanced-scuba-discussions/298925-padi-tables-finally-going-away.html

[Crush]

Please refer to Willar's original post http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/308934-padi-dropping-dive-tables.html followed by the (less relevant) post http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/309421-two-dive-computers-vs-dive-tables.html which it spawned.

Postscript: AfterDark, you must have beaten me by a few milliseconds!

[BlueKnight]

Thanks for that guys. I had a feeling that this would have already been discussed somwhere but it looks like we may soon wave bye bye:surrender: to RDPs

Still it is nice to know your tables just in case.

[Kevrumbo]

Not even an issue: You must know how to use this table (http://wrigley.usc.edu/hyperbaric/hugi.pdf) and a few others, if you ever want to volunteer here: Welcome to the University of Southern California Catalina Hyperbaric Chamber (http://wrigley.usc.edu/hyperbaric/TOP.HTM)

There is no digital computer controlling the hyperbaric chamber, nor is there one tracking the Nitrogen loading of patient, tender & physician here --it's all manual control valves, analog gauges, base 60 arithmetic, and dive & treatment tables.

The point is: A good grounding in fundamental dive tables will always serve you. . .

[BlueKnight]

I agree Kev. I belive you need to understand the principles involved with diving. Even if you never use tables again after the inital training at least it would give you an understanding into what is happening to your body when diving.

Still I am always looking for an excuse to buy another gadget :)

[BlueKnight]

Just had a realy scary thought. Hope they never make a dive computer that runs on windows :errrr:

[ScubaSteve]

Another thread on this? Really? Maybe a MOD can blend this with one of the others which have been active for the last two or more weeks.

[ScubaSteve]

Just had a realy scary thought. Hope they never make a dive computer that runs on windows :errrr:


eNqPTOb31S8

[zaberman1]

the 'table' will not go away and the training standard your instructor referred to did not say the tables are being phased out, they are just adding another avenue to teach dive planning and assessment. They are doing these to keep up with the trends in the diving community, not unlike other agencies will/have. I meet many divers post-certification that do not use the tables, have no idea how to use them, barely understand the mechanics of it (scary).

That being said, you will ALWAYS need a grounded understanding of tables whether or not the RDP is the teaching tool.

[BlueKnight]

Great vid Steve thanks. Had major problems with PC's at work this week so this gave me a lift. Have a virtual drink of your choice on me :)

[llqwyd]

PADI is dumbing down diving (DDD). They will have their way at some point and will probably get rid of the tables. This is one of the reasons our entire store converted to NAUI.

;)

[TSandM]

Honestly, this thread reminds me of my Chem 101 class, where we all had slide rules, and one cool guy had a calculator . . . (Yes, I'm dating myself by saying that.)

Almost no one dives tables. Tables are perhaps useful teaching devices, but most people will either buy a computer and use it, or will find, as I did, that terrain-based diving does not lend itself to tables at all. From the very beginning, the dives I did from shore just didn't fit -- If we swam down to 70 feet and back up from 70 feet and it took an hour, an hour at 70 feet put us WAY into deco. I tried to chart pressure groups, and the results were meaningless. And they ARE.

What people learning to dive need to know is the concept of nitrogen absorption, that different parts of the body probably absorb and release nitrogen at different rates, and that the dive is not over from the nitrogen point of view when your head breaks the water. I'm quite sure those concepts can be taught without the use of tables. I'm quite sure you can dive safely without the use of tables. I don't use tables (I don't use a computer, either, but that's another story.)

I may jump on the bandwagon about the dumbing down of diving instruction when it comes to skills, but I think abandoning the use of tables is no big loss. I'm not at all sure, from watching my husband's students, that people take away any "big picture" lesson from working the table problems in OW, anyway.

[gcbryan]

I agree that it's no big loss to eliminate the table problems. I think it's a loss to not even be exposed to a single dive table with NDL times by depth. After you look at that a few times the info stays in your head.

True, it can't be used literally if you're not doing a square profile but it does suggest certain parameters. There are other ways of fine tuning this as one gets more experience but I think at least that basic NDL time at depth info needs to be covered rather than just look at your computer.

[Paladin]

The following multi-level dive was planned, as an experiment, using the PADI RDP. Would somebody check it against a dive computer to see how close (or not) it comes to what a computer says.

90 ft.....................10 min.
70 ft.....................21 min.
50ft......................20 min.
15 ft.....................safety stop

[AfterDark]

Not even an issue: You must know how to use this table (http://wrigley.usc.edu/hyperbaric/hugi.pdf) and a few others, if you ever want to volunteer here: Welcome to the University of Southern California Catalina Hyperbaric Chamber (http://wrigley.usc.edu/hyperbaric/TOP.HTM)

There is no digital computer controlling the hyperbaric chamber, nor is there one tracking the Nitrogen loading of patient, tender & physician here --it's all manual control valves, analog gauges, base 60 arithmetic, and dive & treatment tables.

The point is: A good grounding in fundamental dive tables will always serve you. . .

What? No computer? Do cavemen operate the chamber?:D

[DiveNav]

What? No computer? Do cavemen operate the chamber?:D

Nope.

Our friend Karl (http://www.lacountyscuba.com/speakers/khuggins.htm) is running the show there .... he is "only" an expert in decompression theory and one of the co-designer of the EDGE dive computer.

AM

[AfterDark]

Nope.

Our friend Karl (http://www.lacountyscuba.com/speakers/khuggins.htm) is running the show there .... he is "only" an expert in decompression theory and one of the co-designer of the EDGE dive computer.

AM

WOW! He must be if he can do decompression / recompression without a computer.:eyebrow: Do you know attemped humor through sarcasism when you read?

[DiveNav]

..... Do you know attemped humor through sarcasism when you read?...

Sure :D

Sarcasm is my second name ;)

Alberto

[gcbryan]

The following multi-level dive was planned, as an experiment, using the PADI RDP. Would somebody check it against a dive computer to see how close (or not) it comes to what a computer says.

90 ft.....................10 min.
70 ft.....................21 min.
50ft......................20 min.
15 ft.....................safety stop

Using V-Planner at nominal using that schedule (air) would require a 25 minute (deco) stop at 20 fsw.

Of course it depends on what computer you are referencing. Most dive computers don't have that degree of pre-planning in them. One of mine would allow 35 minutes at 70 fsw. The RDP would allow more like 40 minutes I believe.

You could drop either the stay at 90 fsw or the stay at 70 fsw and you would be fine or just stay 10 minutes at each of those 3 depths.

Or in generic terms go deepish (100 fsw) for 15 minutes or so, come up at least one atmosphere to 65 fsw or so for 5 minutes and check things out and then get shallow (30 fsw) and stay there until you are cold or bored. This is assuming a multi-level dive where there is plenty to see at all depths.

If you stay a little longer at 100 fsw then stay a little longer above 30 fsw.

[Kern]

Using V-Planner at nominal using that schedule (air) would require a 25 minute (deco) stop at 20 fsw.

Of course it depends on what computer you are referencing. Most dive computers don't have that degree of pre-planning in them. One of mine would allow 35 minutes at 70 fsw. The RDP would allow more like 40 minutes I believe.

You could drop either the stay at 90 fsw or the stay at 70 fsw and you would be fine or just stay 10 minutes at each of those 3 depths.

Or in generic terms go deepish (100 fsw) for 15 minutes or so, come up at least one atmosphere to 65 fsw or so for 5 minutes and check things out and then get shallow (30 fsw) and stay there until you are cold or bored. This is assuming a multi-level dive where there is plenty to see at all depths.

If you stay a little longer at 100 fsw then stay a little longer above 30 fsw.

You don't need a computer but misusing a table isn't any better.;)

Where did the 25 minute deco come from; I used a 3 minute safety stop & got an extra 2:13 at 3 mt. So basically a 5 minute SS.

DIVE PLAN
Surface interval = 1 day 0 hr 0 min.
Elevation = 0m
Conservatism = Nominal

Dec to 28m (1) Air 15m/min descent.
Level 28m 8:08 (10) Air 0.79 ppO2, 28m ead
Asc to 21m (10) Air -9m/min ascent.
Level 21m 21:00 (31) Air 0.65 ppO2, 21m ead
Asc to 15m (32) Air -9m/min ascent.
Level 15m 20:00 (52) Air 0.52 ppO2, 15m ead
Asc to 6m (53) Air -9m/min ascent.
Asc to 5m (53) Air -9m/min ascent.
Level 5m 3:00 (56) Air 0.31 ppO2, 5m ead
Asc to 3m (56) Air -9m/min ascent.
Stop at 3m 2:13 (59) Air 0.27 ppO2, 3m ead
Surface (59) Air -9m/min ascent.

OTU's this dive: 16
CNS Total: 8.0%

2960.6 ltr Air
2960.6 ltr TOTAL

[ZKY]

eNqPTOb31S8

OMG!!! I'm still LOL (histerically)
(wiping laugh tears from my eyes!)

[gcbryan]

You're right. Who knows what I plugged in...it was late at night.;)
It's not a profile I'd be all that comfortable with but it is within the NDL's.


Where did the 25 minute deco come from; I used a 3 minute safety stop & got an extra 2:13 at 3 mt. So basically a 5 minute SS.

DIVE PLAN
Surface interval = 1 day 0 hr 0 min.
Elevation = 0m
Conservatism = Nominal

Dec to 28m (1) Air 15m/min descent.
Level 28m 8:08 (10) Air 0.79 ppO2, 28m ead
Asc to 21m (10) Air -9m/min ascent.
Level 21m 21:00 (31) Air 0.65 ppO2, 21m ead
Asc to 15m (32) Air -9m/min ascent.
Level 15m 20:00 (52) Air 0.52 ppO2, 15m ead
Asc to 6m (53) Air -9m/min ascent.
Asc to 5m (53) Air -9m/min ascent.
Level 5m 3:00 (56) Air 0.31 ppO2, 5m ead
Asc to 3m (56) Air -9m/min ascent.
Stop at 3m 2:13 (59) Air 0.27 ppO2, 3m ead
Surface (59) Air -9m/min ascent.

OTU's this dive: 16
CNS Total: 8.0%

2960.6 ltr Air
2960.6 ltr TOTAL

[sgl308]

I see the same discussions in the aviation field. They have slide rules to plan flights and also flight computers. They also have charts for maps and GPS in the plane. My thought logic is that electronics will fail. I don't care if it's PC or MAC or whatever. I'll take my trusty pen and paper and the knowledge in my head.

[Kevrumbo]

From the wealthiest warm water recreation/vacation diver with all the computer electronic wiz-bang gadgetry, to the poorest Honduran commercial lobster diver; and the Oil Rig professional diver to the Navy UDT & SEAL teams --dive tables will always be of service and available to all.

[Don't let Pete (NetDoc) bedazzle you with his bullscat rhetoric tell you otherwise. . .]