No air left. Unable to do controlled ascent!

[scubette]

Hi Everyone -
I'm new to this site and well I guess you can say diving as well, of which I just love!

Had a very horrifying experience this past weekend and was wondering if someone could explain to me what to do should this ever happen again.

I was with a group testing out new drysuits for drysuit cert. My buddy and I was swimming toward the back of the group. Well, while diving, my buoyancy was out of control, as some may know, a diver cannot use their BCD for buoyancy control underwater while diving with a drysuit. Low and behold, I was at 47 feet depth with 550 psi left in my tank. I signaled to my instructor and buddy and we started to ascend slowly.

This is what happened next. When I reached 43 feet, all of a sudden all of my air was gone. Within seconds!!! Couldn't believe it. My buddy was approx 7ft below me as I was ascending just above him. I had already exhaled just prior to my air running out and could not inhale any air. There was no air in my BCD. I was stuck, stuck with no air in my lungs to slowly exhale or "aahhh" on the controlled ascent. My airway was closed. Actually, there was no controlled emergency ascent. I kept ascending, was at 32 feet, looked up to the surface and knew I could not make it. I felt like I was going to choke or fight for a last breath from somewhere, but knew it would be water. Didn't know what to do. My gut took over and I made a last ditch effort and swam down about 8ft to my buddy and grabbed his alternate air. I know I wasn't suppose to swim back down, but I had to, to essentially save my own life.

To run out of air is one scary moment, but to run out of air and have NO air in your lungs to exhale to make a controlled emergency ascent is TOTALLY different.

Besides from purchasing a pony bottle or 3cft spare tank, are there other skills or what could I have done when I had absolutely no air left in my lungs to exhale to make an ascent quicker than my buddy was ascending?? Very, very unsettling.

[Wookie]

Ummm. Welcome to Scubaboard. You'll get lots of opinions from divers, here. Please don't think any one is yelling at you, but some of us have pretty strong feelings about this.

First off, of course you can use your BC for buoyancy control while diving a drysuit. You are equipped with many tools to use while diving, the best one is your brain. Inflate your drysuit so it is comfortable, then use your BC to control buoyancy.

Next, if you run out of air at depth, go to where the air is. If it is 7 feet below you in your buddy's mouth, have at it. I'm sure you were taught in open water class not to panic and never hold your breath. Well, those are the only rules to scuba. Everything else is open to interpretation.

I think you did exactly the right thing when confronted with this emergency. After all, you were able to type tonight. I also believe that a completely redundant air source (pony bottle) is a must when diving. Self rescue is the most important skill any instructor can pass on to you. I know it's scary to run out of air. Keep at it, invest in a rescue course, and get that pony.

Again, welcome,
Frank

[Rick Murchison]

Well... you certainly strung together a few good lessons learned here!
1. Know your own consumption rate; monitor your gas supply & head for the surface with enough to make it without having to do a CESA.
2. Stay with your buddy (your buddy must stay with you, too).
3. The idea that you "must" exhale during a CESA is a bit of a red herring - the kicker is to keep the airway open, which it is during both inhalation and exhalation. Attempting to inhale while doing a CESA works just fine... so you could have proceded to the surface - however... as you had air 8' down or 30+' up, I can't fault you for going for the 8' solution - especially since it worked.
4. You absolutely can use your BC with a drysuit.
See #1 again :)
Rick

[fisheater]

You did VERY well to not panic and decide to get air from your buddy.

I'm quite curious as to why you "suddenly" lost air. Was this rental gear or yours? Has anyone checked the reg and the SPG post dive? Could be as simple as a SPG that reads about 500 psi high, or a reg malfunction.

Was your air turned fully on? If not all the way on, then it may no have delivered air flow at very low pressures.

BTW, there are multiple schools of thought on using the drysuit, BCD or both for buoyancy control.

[Valhalla]

Well it wasn't the prettiest of dives but your survival instints pervailed. You will get lots of responses in quick sucession with posters yapping about staying close to your dive partners. In the event of another OOA situation I am sure you will look to their assistance before ascending alone. Sounds like your dive buddy made a quick ascent to follow you and they should be commended. As far as expending air out of your lungs you need only have your airway open to allow expanding air to escape such as blowing bubbles instead of a full blown exhale. I would certainly have your gauge checked for accuracy...

[sea nmf]

The suddenly losing air has me puzzled as well. Could you have been inflating your drysuit accidently, using up air?

Here is what I think. You asked what to do if it happened again. My guess is that it will not happen again, once you figure out why the air you had ran out within 10' of your ascent. That should have been enough air to get you safely up to the surface or to the side of your buddy.

[Rick Murchison]

BTW, there are multiple schools of thought on using the drysuit, BCD or both for buoyancy control.
Here's mine:
The dry suit is for exposure protection. It should be kept inflated only enough to maintain sufficient loft in the underwear to provide that protection.
The BC is for buoyancy compensation/control. It should be used for that.
If you have a BC failure then the dry suit can be used as a backup BC to control buoyancy during an ascent and for flotation on the surface.
Rick

[fppf]

There is a reason they say to be on the surface with at least 500 PSI in your tank, not at 47 feet. Have your gauge checked out and see if it reads correctly.

Even though your lungs where "empty" from 47 feet to the surface the gas left in your lungs will expand by a factor of almost 1.5 times. More than enough expansion to cause Baro trauma.

I also think over all you handled the issue ok. First, don't run out of air. Know that your air consumption rate will increase when your doing new tasks. Stress increases, so does breathing. Second, stay with your buddy, 8 feet is not a lot, until you have no air. You did the correct choice of bolting to your buddy rather then the surface.

I don't think the dry suit played any other role in this other than increasing your stress and air consumption. It is recommended that new dry suit divers only use the suit for control. This reduces task loading, think of doing a CESA and having to vent air from 2 devices. Most experienced dry suit divers at some point start using there BC for control and only put enough air in the suit for warmth. However, this increases task loading when the stuff hits, make sure you can handle it.

[scubette]

Thank you so much for all of your replies. They mean alot to me!! Regarding the drysuit, it was a rental from the manufacturer at their demonstration day. The rest of the gear is mine which was purchased new four months ago. My instructor taught us to use the drysuit for buoyancy control, not the BCD. That's probably why my buoyancy was out of control and used up alot of air. But I do not recall inflating the drysuit once after I saw my air was at 550. I was just shocked and will take y'all's advice to have my SPG checked out as well. My instructor told me 5 times after this happened that I should have went to the surface regardless, never to dive back down. I guess that's why it's still unsettling to me.

[Wookie]

It is recommended that new dry suit divers only use the suit for control. This reduces task loading, think of doing a CESA and having to vent air from 2 devices. Most experienced dry suit divers at some point start using there BC for control and only put enough air in the suit for warmth. However, this increases task loading when the stuff hits, make sure you can handle it.

I don't get this. I would think that a relatively new diver that knows how to use their BC for buoyancy control would be better off using their BC for buoyancy control. I understand that whole task loading thing, but I set my shoulder purge to hold the right amount of air while diving, and the drysuit burps itself on ascent.

I'm not that experienced a drysuit diver, I only have a couple of hundred dives on it, and I'm self taught. What did I miss?

[Wookie]

My instructor told me 5 times after this happened that I should have went to the surface regardless, never to dive back down. I guess that's why it's still unsettling to me.

I won't say your instructor is wrong. He (she) must have a reason for freaking you out. I just say that you did good.

[Valhalla]

Thank for all of your replies. They mean alot to me!! Regarding the drysuit, it was a rental from the manufacturer at their demonstration day. My instructor taught us to use the drysuit for buoyancy control, not the BCD. That's probably why my buoyancy was out of control and used up alot of air. But I do not recall inflating the drysuit once after I saw my air was at 550. I was just shocked and will take y'all's advice to have my SPG checked out as well. My instructor told me 5 times after this happened that I should have went to the surface regardless, never to dive back down. I guess that's why it's still unsettling to me.

I read your profile and see you use a Oceanic Pro Plus integrated computer. Myself and many dive buddies have used in the past. They varied wildly in reading cylinder pressure. Consider replacing IMO...

[Valhalla]

My instructor told me 5 times after this happened that I should have went to the surface regardless, never to dive back down. I guess that's why it's still unsettling to me.

I would love to hear the instructor's argument for a 43ft CESA as opposed to descending 7' to meet dive partner although I must say I am not a drysuit diver....

[fppf]

I read your profile and see you use a Oceanic Pro Plus integrated computer. Myself and many dive buddies have used in the past. They varied wildly in reading cylinder pressure. Consider replacing IMO...

Mine reads dead nuts.


As far as task loading, anytime something new is thrown into the mix people tend to obsess on that new item. Often they can over look the usual's and fixate on the new item thinking its the problem.

I personally use my wing as well. But the dry suit only school is what is taught by most agencies. I did it for my first few dry dives.

[Wookie]

I would love to hear the instructor's argument for a 43ft CESA as opposed to descending 7' to meet dive partner although I must say I am not a drysuit diver....

I liked the first response better. I had to look up egregious. You made me learn something today.

[Valhalla]

I liked the first response better. I had to look up egregious. You made me learn something today.

My lack of drysuit knowledge led me to back away from the more dramatic comment but I am sure I will get to use it again soon. :D

[Valhalla]

Mine reads dead nuts.


Can they be calibrated? If not, she can have mine...

[drdaddy]

Thank you so much for all of your replies. They mean alot to me!! Regarding the drysuit, it was a rental from the manufacturer at their demonstration day. The rest of the gear is mine which was purchased new four months ago. My instructor taught us to use the drysuit for buoyancy control, not the BCD. That's probably why my buoyancy was out of control and used up alot of air. But I do not recall inflating the drysuit once after I saw my air was at 550. I was just shocked and will take y'all's advice to have my SPG checked out as well. My instructor told me 5 times after this happened that I should have went to the surface regardless, never to dive back down. I guess that's why it's still unsettling to me.

Scubette,

First of all, I'm very glad that you went for the closest air and all turned out alright.

Had you had a way to go up, you would have found air being released from your lungs as you came up. But the only way I can think of you really making it up before you passed out or took an unwanted "breath" of water, is if you released your weights and then ascended faster than a controlled ascent. But you knew you wouldn't make it, so I'm wondering why your instructor believes the way they do. Out of principal, I can understand the reason to "go up", but I'm glad you went the very short distance down to your buddy for air - good choice.

From 45 feet, I would suggest a minimum of 800 psi when you begin your ascent - that's what I do - you never know whether it will be kelp or some old fishing line between you and the surface and I want that extra margin. And as a newer diver in a demo wetsuit - I'd recommend 1000. Better too much air when you reach the surface, than not enough!!!

Also, remember that when you reach the surface without any air, you will not be able to inflate your wetsuit or bcd to keep you afloat, and it's hard to orally inflate your bcd when you out of breath and struggling to keep your head above the water and waves. Be ready to release your weights, if need be.

I always dive with a pony - usually a 19 cuft - how you attach it, etc. is a debate you'll read about here on SB. But, even with a pony, in an out of air situation, the pony does not inflate your bcd. I even do my shallow dives with a pony - not because I need it, but because I try to dive with the same equipment configuration every time so that it becomes second nature.

Rescue Diver (RD) is a very useful and highly recommended course. The RD course begins with recognizing and avoiding problems and then self rescue. Rescuing others is the rest of the course. Redundant air, while not covered in the RD course, is first of all for self rescue, second of all for the other diver.

I love ScubaBoard - it really allows you to learn from others, learn from yourself as you share with others and they reflect back to you, and share your knowledge and experience with others as well.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

[graywhale]

My instructor told me 5 times after this happened that I should have went to the surface regardless, never to dive back down. I guess that's why it's still unsettling to me.

Why the heck not? There is no reason I can think of not to dice down if you are sure you can make it better than going up. DCS is not an issue either by going back down. However, rocketing up may cause a problem. You're instructor is wrong. You knew where your buddy way a mere 7 feet down and you went there. You made OK too. Your instincts and reaction are better than what your instructor is telling, you in my opinion.

[Teamcasa]

Ummm. Welcome to Scubaboard. You'll get lots of opinions from divers, here. Please don't think any one is yelling at you, but some of us have pretty strong feelings about this.

First off, of course you can use your BC for buoyancy control while diving a drysuit. You are equipped with many tools to use while diving, the best one is your brain. Inflate your drysuit so it is comfortable, then use your BC to control buoyancy.

Next, if you run out of air at depth, go to where the air is. If it is 7 feet below you in your buddy's mouth, have at it. I'm sure you were taught in open water class not to panic and never hold your breath. Well, those are the only rules to scuba. Everything else is open to interpretation.

I think you did exactly the right thing when confronted with this emergency. After all, you were able to type tonight. I also believe that a completely redundant air source (pony bottle) is a must when diving. Self rescue is the most important skill any instructor can pass on to you. I know it's scary to run out of air. Keep at it, invest in a rescue course, and get that pony.

Again, welcome,
Frank

Well said Frank. Id just add that good dive planing and air management must be at the top of your lessons learned. But you know that very well now.


I read your profile and see you use a Oceanic Pro Plus integrated computer. Myself and many dive buddies have used in the past. They varied wildly in reading cylinder pressure. Consider replacing IMO...

My ProPlus is an excellent pressure gauge and is very accurate. But you do have to look at it a little more often.;)

[RonFrank]

I (and most dry divers I know) use their BC for buoyancy control, and the drysuit to keep things from getting too squeezed at depth, and as a backup bag so to speak. I understand this is not how most agencies teach, but this is how a lot of divers handle dry diving.

You handled the emergency well. If you are not comfortable and practiced with your equipment (in this case your Pressure gauge) always give yourself plenty of room for error. Ascending from 50' at 550psi is not all that horrible. Doing so without knowing your equipment is. Either your pressure gauge is WAY off, or you sucked down 500psi of air while ascending 5 feet.

So there is the first thing to figure out, how far off is your spg, and can you adjust it if that needs to occur. You can dive it as is, you just need to understand the variance. Did it read 3500 psi at the beginning, assuming a good fill? I'd calibrate it against a shop SPG.

A second thing to realize is that had you kept the airway open, and ascended 10 feet, you likely would have found some air in that tank. This assumes it was not a first, or second stage failure, so was it? I assume no, but....

Valhalla, I'd be happy to take that worthless AI computer off your hands! :D

[fppf]

Can they be calibrated? If not, she can have mine...

They can be factory calibrated, but I'm not aware of a way for the end user or LDS to do it. Most LDS don't have gauges accurate enough anyway. I just happen to have a 0.5% 5000 PSI pressure transducer laying around ;)


Swimming down to the buddy would be a better choice than a CESA with a dry suit on. Fast accents in dry suits are VERY tough to control because its tough to get that much gas to move to the vent and get out of the suit. You basically end up spread eagle to create the most drag and slow down.

[Valhalla]

In fairness to the good folks at Oceanic who produces great computers the units that were off erred in the other direction by 300-500 PSI...

[TSandM]

It seems fairly clear that the unfamiliar suit raised your gas consumption, and you ran through a lot of gas on ascent.

I believe, as others have written, that your instructor is wrong. Your buddy is carrying your spare gas, and should be the FIRST place you go if you are in distress. Diving 7 feet down to get your buddy's gas is MUCH safer than bolting to the surface, assuming that your buddy is not in the same circumstance you are, which is why we are taught what the minimum gas reserve is that we should carry. You might find THIS (http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/articles/gas.html) article by NW Grateful Diver to be of interest.

There are a lot of lessons here: Simple dives are best when trying new gear. Conservative gas management beats trying to figure out where your next breath is coming from. Your buddy should never be more than a breath away. And both of you should have enough gas to get the other to the surface from any point in the dive.

[Valhalla]

Valhalla, I'd be happy to take that worthless AI computer off your hands! :D


That's my female only price. Mine is accurate, or darn close. I still dive with a AI by the way. Wrist mount...

[Tigerman]

Well done not bolting to the surface. *** the instructor is thinking telling you to go to the surface instead of your buddy for is beyond me and any training Ive heard of anyone receiveing.

As far as the use of the bc for bouyancy, the suit for boyancy or both I pretty much use "neither".
If youre properly weighted youll only need to offset the squeeze to be neutral or very near neutral.
The times I do dive in a manner that require me to compensate with air to be neutral I use the BC primarilly, but I find it easier to "fine tune" with the suit. This however I just need to do if I for some reason dive with more weight than needed. Some tasks just get easier with a pound or two extra weight.

[bleeb]

You've already had some good advice, but I'll throw another thought. You may already know some of this, but I'll assume not for the sake of the discussion.

Although it felt like you couldn't have made the ascent, you probably could have. With just a little bit of practice, most people can empty their lungs and go without breathing for 60-90 sec, and 2-3 minutes are not unusual. First, your blood is almost always completely saturated with all the oxygen it can carry, which is actually enough for quite a while. Second, although the average person can inhale or exhale about 1 liter of air, most sets of lungs still hold several liters even when you exhale completely. In other words, there's several more breaths right there. Thirdly, at 43', those several litres of lung space hold roughly 2.25x as much oxygen as they would on the surface. That's several more breaths worth. How many are we up to?

The challenge is controlling the desire to breathe, which is one of our stronger reflexes. As you may have been told in your OW class, the desire to breathe is driven mainly by the buildup of CO2. We can actually tolerate for short periods quite a bit more CO2 than what our internal triggers are normally set to and part of practicing holding your breath is actually reprogramming your internal set points. In a crisis, just knowing you have the oxygen already inside you may also help make this easier.

I say all this partly so that if anything similar ever happens to you again, you have a few more tools to fix the situation and hopefully the confidence that you can use them successfully.

[gcbryan]

Hi Everyone -
I'm new to this site and well I guess you can say diving as well, of which I just love!

Had a very horrifying experience this past weekend and was wondering if someone could explain to me what to do should this ever happen again.

I was with a group testing out new drysuits for drysuit cert. My buddy and I was swimming toward the back of the group. Well, while diving, my buoyancy was out of control, as some may know, a diver cannot use their BCD for buoyancy control underwater while diving with a drysuit. Low and behold, I was at 47 feet depth with 550 psi left in my tank. I signaled to my instructor and buddy and we started to ascend slowly.

As others have mentioned you can use your BC for buoyancy control but that's not an issue here one way or the other.

You shouldn't "suddenly discover" your remaining air at whatever depth you are at. You should be looking at it often enough so that it is no surprise.


This is what happened next. When I reached 43 feet, all of a sudden all of my air was gone. Within seconds!!! Couldn't believe it. My buddy was approx 7ft below me as I was ascending just above him. I had already exhaled just prior to my air running out and could not inhale any air. There was no air in my BCD. I was stuck, stuck with no air in my lungs to slowly exhale or "aahhh" on the controlled ascent. My airway was closed. Actually, there was no controlled emergency ascent. I kept ascending, was at 32 feet, looked up to the surface and knew I could not make it. I felt like I was going to choke or fight for a last breath from somewhere, but knew it would be water. Didn't know what to do. My gut took over and I made a last ditch effort and swam down about 8ft to my buddy and grabbed his alternate air. I know I wasn't suppose to swim back down, but I had to, to essentially save my own life.

To run out of air is one scary moment, but to run out of air and have NO air in your lungs to exhale to make a controlled emergency ascent is TOTALLY different.

Besides from purchasing a pony bottle or 3cft spare tank, are there other skills or what could I have done when I had absolutely no air left in my lungs to exhale to make an ascent quicker than my buddy was ascending?? Very, very unsettling.

You can't run out of 500 psi in a few seconds without free flow or some other obvious leak. When you got out of the water did your spg say that you were out of air or did it still show air?

Regarding running out of air with empty lungs this is generally how it would happen. You wouldn't know until you needed more air and then discovered that you couldn't get any.

You can do a CESA from that depth. You would have some air in your lungs and it would expand as you ascended. In your case it is better to go a few feet down to your buddy for air however.

I would check the gauge/computer to see if it is accurate but otherwise you just need to check your air more often and begin your ascent with much more air in the first place.

Good job handling this situation though!

[Thalassamania]

Hi Everyone -
I'm new to this site and well I guess you can say diving as well, of which I just love!

Had a very horrifying experience this past weekend and was wondering if someone could explain to me what to do should this ever happen again.

I was with a group testing out new drysuits for drysuit cert. My buddy and I was swimming toward the back of the group. Well, while diving, my buoyancy was out of control, as some may know, a diver cannot use their BCD for buoyancy control underwater while diving with a drysuit. Low and behold, I was at 47 feet depth with 550 psi left in my tank. I signaled to my instructor and buddy and we started to ascend slowly.

This is what happened next. When I reached 43 feet, all of a sudden all of my air was gone. Within seconds!!! Couldn't believe it. My buddy was approx 7ft below me as I was ascending just above him. I had already exhaled just prior to my air running out and could not inhale any air. There was no air in my BCD. I was stuck, stuck with no air in my lungs to slowly exhale or "aahhh" on the controlled ascent. My airway was closed. Actually, there was no controlled emergency ascent. I kept ascending, was at 32 feet, looked up to the surface and knew I could not make it. I felt like I was going to choke or fight for a last breath from somewhere, but knew it would be water. Didn't know what to do. My gut took over and I made a last ditch effort and swam down about 8ft to my buddy and grabbed his alternate air. I know I wasn't suppose to swim back down, but I had to, to essentially save my own life.

To run out of air is one scary moment, but to run out of air and have NO air in your lungs to exhale to make a controlled emergency ascent is TOTALLY different.

Besides from purchasing a pony bottle or 3cft spare tank, are there other skills or what could I have done when I had absolutely no air left in my lungs to exhale to make an ascent quicker than my buddy was ascending?? Very, very unsettling.
You did good well, and learned an important lesson ... much of the nonsense that you are taught makes no sense what-so-ever in the real world. You did exactly the right thing.
I don't get this. I would think that a relatively new diver that knows how to use their BC for buoyancy control would be better off using their BC for buoyancy control. I understand that whole task loading thing, but I set my shoulder purge to hold the right amount of air while diving, and the drysuit burps itself on ascent.

I'm not that experienced a drysuit diver, I only have a couple of hundred dives on it, and I'm self taught. What did I miss?
Nothing, nothing at all.

[AfterDark]

What the heck is wrong with her instructor?!?!?!?! Don't use a BC for bouyancy control with a dry suit? Go 30'+ instead of 8' to get air? What the heck do they require a octopus for another sale? Then not giving her thumbs up for controlling herself in OOA sit.?
Where's the handcuffs? Sounds like this instructor is trying to get her killed.

[DevonDiver]

Anyone can make a mistake. The low air and possible spg error meant that you were caught out. However, as a general rule of thumb.... as air starts to get lower.... then it is time to get tighter with your buddy.

Most people start their dive cautiously, and then relax (and get sloppy) as time underwater passes and, eventually, even allow themselves to get distracted from their 'core dive management'.

In reality, the opposite should happen. Having made a safe descent, your awareness and team (buddy) work should get stricter over the course of the dive - as air gets lower, NDLs get closer and our attention is most liable to wander....

Any time you get close to the 'red zone' on your spg (500psi/50bar)...or anytime you start to worry, in any way, about your gas supply (or any other problem)... you should make sure you are damn close to your buddy...and that you have their attention.

Also... there is a lesson to be learned about signalling your buddy if you have a potential problem.

500psi or less is low on air. There is a standard hand signal taught for this situation in every OW class. USE IT. If you had... then maybe your buddy would have been closer and waiting to assist once you ran out of air.

[bacaruda]

You made the correct decision to go for your buddys octo.
You asked what you could have done differently.
In a situation where a second air-source isn't an option (buddy missing or to far away) there is one thing that is essential: establish positive bouyancy!
With no air left there is only one way: drop your weightbelt.
Me and my daughter practice this quite frequently (in wery shallow water) so that in an emergency, there will be no hesitation in where the hands will go to release the integrated weights.
The small amount of air still in your tank will expand on the way up, giving you the possibility to inhale maybe once or twice.
Haven't been forced to try it out my self, but a friend of mine run dry at 60 ft (manometer malfunction), No air in the lungs he ditched the belt as a reflex and headed for the surface. He got one breath on the way and came out ok, but shocked. We both purchased pony bottles after that incident. I'm trying to convince my daughter to use ponybottle as well, but she claims that her type of diving doesn't call for a pony.
I don't care if a dive is "easy" or not. You never plan for "running out of air", so the pony goes with me all the time.

[Rick Murchison]

... It is recommended that new dry suit divers only use the suit for control... Who's "it?"
It sure ain't me!
I say again, use the drysuit inflator only to maintain loft in the underwear; use the BC for buoyancy compensation.
Do it from the very first time you don the drysuit and you won't have to unlearn a bad habit later.
Rick

[Rick Murchison]

... My instructor taught us to use the drysuit for buoyancy control, not the BCD... My instructor told me 5 times after this happened that I should have went to the surface regardless...Instructors are just folks too, not beyond improving their knowledge and skills. Refer your instructor to this thread.
Have him/her join the instructor-to-instructor forum on Scubaboard and we'll discuss this stuff - and maybe we'll all learn something.
:)
Rick

[Rick Murchison]

... Fast accents in dry suits are VERY tough to control because its tough to get that much gas to move to the vent and get out of the suit. You basically end up spread eagle to create the most drag and slow down. Maybe it's suit dependent... I've used a Dive-Rite 905 for the past 6 or 7 years, but had an Oceanic 7 mil for years before that which added expanding neoprene to the problem. On a training weekend I may do 16 or more CESA's and I've yet to have a problem venting enough air to control ascent rate.
Rick

[fppf]

Rick
The major training agency's all teach to only use the dry suit.
And I would expect an instructor to be able to do CESA with a dry suit. I can, but never had to. I would not expect a new dry suit user to be able to pull it off in a real situation.
I'm not saying using the BC is wrong. I use my wing every dive. I'm just saying how the training agency teach people.

As for dropping your weight belt, this is the absolute worst thing you can do IMHO, especially in a dry suit or thick wet suit. Going 20+ lbs positive will take any control of your accent rate away from you. If your diving correctly and are close to neutral when you run out of air you can just start to swim up. Once you ascend a few feet the air in your BC and suit will start to expand to the point of needing to vent it to keep your accent rate under control.

[Wookie]

As for dropping your weight belt, this is the absolute worst thing you can do IMHO, especially in a dry suit or thick wet suit. Going 20+ lbs positive will take any control of your accent rate away from you. If your diving correctly and are close to neutral when you run out of air you can just start to swim up. Once you ascend a few feet the air in your BC and suit will start to expand to the point of needing to vent it to keep your accent rate under control.
Wow! In 20 years of operating 2 liveaboards, the crew of these liveaboards have recovered 4 weightbelts. That were firmly attached to 4 dead bodies. I only saw one of them. I saw him die. I saw him surface, put up his safety sausage, signal the boat that he needed a ride, and by the time the Divemaster got to him, he was gone. As sunk back down. This is a man who should have lived, but he traded his life for a $25 weightbelt.

I've watched the rescue of countless divers. Nothing was wrong with those divers that experience wouldn't have fixed. For the first few years I was the captain of this boat, I watched as 90% of those rescued divers got back on the boat with their weightbelt on. Sometimes I'm a little slow. Now, I beat my divemasters into submission regarding rescues. Like we were all taught in rescue class, drop the friggin' weightbelt. Panic over. That fast in most cases.

I can fix an embolism. They aren't that scary. I can fix bent, I've had to do it a bunch. My lovely wife can fix dead, she's done it once (he had his weight belt on, too). I can't do it, I can't fix dead, so drop the damn weightbelt. It's not worth your life.

[fppf]

You are talking two different situations.
I'm more than happy to drop my weights on the surface. But at 100 feet I know if I swim up a few feet I get a free, controlled ride to the surface anyway. Its not a money thing, I have more lead here than I know what to do with. Its shooting to the surface 20+ lbs positive with no hope of slowing down and popping out of the water like a breaching whale. That's if the boat is not over me, which in that case I break my neck.

You can't fix an air embolism, most people that embolism are dead before they hit the surface. You can fix bent, but if your doing a CESA your last worry is bent.

[scubette]

I've read all the replies about what my instructor has said to me. His reasoning why is that PADI has done away with "buddy breathing" and he told me that since I swam back down to get air, I had put my buddy at risk and in harms way and I shouldn't have done that. I beg to differ as I needed air because I had no air to exhale while ascending and he had enough air for the both of us. I know when we made it to the surface, my buddy attempted to inflate my bcd by way of my octo but there was nothing left in the tank.

Last night I was thinking that since the drysuit inflator button was in the middle of my chest it could have been accidently pushed by my Zeagle Zena BCD which zips up the front. I did have to unzip the BCD about 2" to clear the drysuit inflator button....maybe that could have been the cause of my losing the air so quickly?!??

Thank you all for your suggestions and comments and I will definitely look into the rescue course as that will be very beneficial in all regards !

[Wookie]

You are talking two different situations.
I'm more than happy to drop my weights on the surface. But at 100 feet I know if I swim up a few feet I get a free, controlled ride to the surface anyway. Its not a money thing, I have more lead here than I know what to do with. Its shooting to the surface 20+ lbs positive with no hope of slowing down and popping out of the water like a breaching whale. That's if the boat is not over me, which in that case I break my neck.

You can't fix an air embolism, most people that embolism are dead before they hit the surface. You can fix bent, but if your doing a CESA your last worry is bent.

Respectfully, you're wrong. Exactly how many embolized divers have you seen and allowed to die? And I'm not talking two different situations. Drop your weights from your drysuit at the bottom sometime. You don't breach, you don't come up feet-first (unless you started that way), you don't bust the surface and pop half-way out. You don't break your neck. In a shell type drysuit (I wear a CLX-450) from 40 feet to the surface, I estimate ascent rate at about 100 FPM, between two and three times what is recommended. I didn't die.

You've read way too many accounts in the "scare the new diver" manual, and need to go out and get some life experience. The highest diving embolism mortality rate I could find as related to scuba was 23%. I may be beating the odds.

Obviously, you have some strong opinions about drysuit diving. It's all good, there is room in the ocean for both of our theories. Remember, your brain is the very best tool you'll ever use while diving. Don't discount what you know until you prove it one way or the other. :D

Frank

[scubette]

Hi Rick, thanks for the info - but since I'm new to this site, how do I refer my instructor to this thread? Thanks again!

[openmindOW]

This is a man who should have lived, but he traded his life for a $25 weightbelt.

I doubt it. Most likely, he panicked.

I am convinced that most Instructors should get their students to spend more time drilling the skill of dropping the weights while on the surface.

[BabyDuck]

Hi Rick, thanks for the info - but since I'm new to this site, how do I refer my instructor to this thread? Thanks again!
tell him 'hey, i found this great site to talk about diving called 'scubaboard'. i told the board about my ooa and wonder if you'd like to come online & talk about it, too.'

you did great. and padi may not emphasize buddy breathing (both people sharing one second stage) but they usually sure do emphasize breathing off someone's octo, so boo on your instructor. it doesn't put your buddy in harm's way to have you both breathing off his gas unless he's that low, too, in which case that's two people who should be paying better attention & i'm sure will be from now on. :)

[Valhalla]

I've read all the replies about what my instructor has said to me. His reasoning why is that PADI has done away with "buddy breathing" and he told me that since I swam back down to get air, I had put my buddy at risk and in harms way and I shouldn't have done that. I beg to differ as I needed air because I had no air to exhale while ascending and he had enough air for the both of us. I know when we made it to the surface, my buddy attempted to inflate my bcd by way of my octo but there was nothing left in the tank.

Last night I was thinking that since the drysuit inflator button was in the middle of my chest it could have been accidently pushed by my Zeagle Zena BCD which zips up the front. I did have to unzip the BCD about 2" to clear the drysuit inflator button....maybe that could have been the cause of my losing the air so quickly?!??

Thank you all for your suggestions and comments and I will definitely look into the rescue course as that will be very beneficial in all regards !

I wonder if PADI monitors SB? That faulty logic with regards to an underwater OOA situation should be corrected quickly...:shakehead:

[Wookie]

I doubt it. Most likely, he panicked.

I am convinced that most Instructors should get their students to spend more time drilling the skill of dropping the weights while on the surface.

Actually, I watched him die. I was standing on the top of the wheelhouse when he surfaced and signaled. He was probably out of air (we never recovered his gear. When we stripped it off of him, it sank immediately), and kicking like a duck to stay at the surface. Autopsy showed a tunnelled coronary artery. Since that time, doctors have told me that a person with a tunnelled coronary artery could die in the emergency room and there wouldn't be anything anyone could do for him.

This man was 6'8" tall, and weighed in excess of 450 lbs. He was one of the biggest, strongest men I've ever seen. His sons were with him on the trip. The boys were in their 20's, so I'd guess he was in his late 40's, early 50's.

I agree, I think instructors should at least demonstrate droping weights from the surface starting in OW class. Then, I think we should bring back ditch and don, too. But that's a subject for another thread.

[Valhalla]

I doubt it. Most likely, he panicked.

I am convinced that most Instructors should get their students to spend more time drilling the skill of dropping the weights while on the surface.

That mind set is prevalent in all facets of life, not just scuba diving. It exsists!

[Valhalla]

Hi Rick, thanks for the info - but since I'm new to this site, how do I refer my instructor to this thread? Thanks again!

Scubette,
Simply copy and paste this link onto an e-mail to him then suggest he contact Rick for information how to enter the instructor to instructor forum. Please keep us posted. Thanks!

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/near-misses-lessons-learned/309650-no-air-left-unable-do-controlled-ascent.html

[TSandM]

Scubette, PADI is no longer teaching "buddy breathing". Buddy breathing is a procedure where two people share ONE second stage regulator, passing it back and forth to take turns breathing from it.

PADI has most certainly NOT done away with sharing gas with your buddy via an alternate air source! It is still the first choice in the event that you are entirely out of gas.

The absolute first imperative in a situation like this is that the diver not drown. Being in the water with no source of breathing gas is the highest risk situation you can be in. It takes a few moments to realize that you are actually OUT of gas, and to make a decision about your options. If you decide to go to the surface, you have to initiate that, and assuming you were more or less neutral before you ran out of air, you are now NEGATIVE because your lungs are empty. You have to overcome that with kicking, so your ascent rate is going to be slow at the beginning. My guess is that it would probably take 30 to 45 seconds to get to the surface, at a minimum, with CO2 building up the whole time, and tremendous anxiety. Far better to swim the few feet to your buddy, acquire an air source, and execute a controlled, air-sharing ascent.

You should not be 7 feet above your buddy, though! There is definitely a lesson here.

[scubette]

My dive started at 2875 psi. My spg showed 000 while still somewhat deep. When my buddy and I surfaced, he tried to inflate my bcd to see if there was any air left, there was none. That's why I'm thinking my BCD that zips up the front and had to be unzipped about 2" to make room for the drysuit inflator button was maybe depressed from my diving movements without my knowing. I don't know. I couldn't hear it as I had a hood on as well. I did attempt to inhale on the way up 2x, but could not and could not exhale either and that's when I bolted back down to my buddy.

I am just very, very thankful and I want to give my sincere thanks to everyone for their replies because I could not make sense or justify what I was told more than several times.

[AfterDark]

I've read all the replies about what my instructor has said to me. His reasoning why is that PADI has done away with "buddy breathing" and he told me that since I swam back down to get air, I had put my buddy at risk and in harms way and I shouldn't have done that. I beg to differ as I needed air because I had no air to exhale while ascending and he had enough air for the both of us. I know when we made it to the surface, my buddy attempted to inflate my bcd by way of my octo but there was nothing left in the tank.

Last night I was thinking that since the drysuit inflator button was in the middle of my chest it could have been accidently pushed by my Zeagle Zena BCD which zips up the front. I did have to unzip the BCD about 2" to clear the drysuit inflator button....maybe that could have been the cause of my losing the air so quickly?!??

Thank you all for your suggestions and comments and I will definitely look into the rescue course as that will be very beneficial in all regards !


You did the right thing. I'll say this, if you had continued the ascent the air left in your lungs(there's always some left) would have expanded and you could begin to exhale. I did it long ago from 70' after a exhale. It wasn't fun, scared the crap a of out me but, it can be done. Question for PADI has the requreiment to have a octp. been dropped since BB has been dropped?

[Damselfish]

Question for PADI has the requreiment to have a octp. been dropped since BB has been dropped?

Buddy breathing does not use the octopus - it involves passing one divers primary second stage back and forth. The octopus is what allows air sharing rather than buddy breathing.

[Wookie]

Question for PADI has the requreiment to have a octp. been dropped since BB has been dropped?

Buddy Breathing was dropped. With an octopus (alternate air source) you might perform a alternate air source ascent, which the OP accomplished in fine fashon. If PADI were to drop the requirement for an alternate air source, then they would have to start teaching buddy breathing. Just sayin'.

[Web Monkey]

Thank you so much for all of your replies. They mean alot to me!! Regarding the drysuit, it was a rental from the manufacturer at their demonstration day. The rest of the gear is mine which was purchased new four months ago. My instructor taught us to use the drysuit for buoyancy control, not the BCD. That's probably why my buoyancy was out of control and used up alot of air. But I do not recall inflating the drysuit once after I saw my air was at 550. I was just shocked and will take y'all's advice to have my SPG checked out as well. My instructor told me 5 times after this happened that I should have went to the surface regardless, never to dive back down. I guess that's why it's still unsettling to me.

This is a great lesson as to what "buddy distance" really is. When you're Out of Air, every foot counts. You might want to stick closer to your buddy (which will also help if he runs out of air).

Also, pressure gauges stick. I've seen some that read several hundred PSI even after being tossed into the trash can. Tank valves can clog, there are all sorts of non-obvious ways to not have any air left (including the obvious "not checking your gauge"). However the solution to all of these is the same. Develop good buddy skills.

As long as you can reach over and poke your buddy in the ribs, you always have an alternate air supply within easy reach.

Anyway, congrats on surviving, and don't let it freak you out too much. All divers have a few "Oh S***T!" moments in their lives. You just got yours earlier than most. 8-)

Terry

[scubette]

I wonder if PADI monitors SB? That faulty logic with regards to an underwater OOA situation should be corrected quickly...:shakehead:

------

[D_B]

SB ... Scuba Board

You did wonderful, you went to the closest air source (which should always be your buddy) and did not bolt for the surface

Buddy breathing is no longer taught by PADI (both off the same regulator)
Air sharing with your buddies alternate regulator is

A quick rule of thumb, multiply your depth by 10 and add 300 psi to that ... this is what you should start your ascent with , IE ... 50ft is 500psi + 300psi = 800psi .. This is from Lamonts post here ... Rock Bottom and Gas Management for Recreational Divers (http://www.scriptkiddie.org/diving/rockbottom.html)


If you do decide to dive a drysuit, get some good training, by an instructor, or by a good mentor that will stress you .. drysuits can have some dangerous failure modes
Here is what my class was like ... http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/advanced-scuba-discussions/260824-padi-dry-suit-class.html and what I learned

[fppf]

Wookie
We can agree to disagree. And I have dropped 26 lbs of weight at 15 feet. I will NEVER do it at 100 feet. I went up a hell of a lot faster than 100 FPM, and that was fully flared. How much weight did you drop at 40 feet?

Our instructors do teach OW students how to remove all gear and replace all gear at the surface. They also still teach ditch and don. I also have more diving in a dry suit than a wet suit. I'm by no means a "new diver"

[MichScubaMike]

I question whether there was truly a better decision. Ignoring the root cause of the problem (where the air went), when faced with the decision of doing a CESA or scramble to a buddy that isn't exactly close....

CESA... Your training should have taken you through this and you should be comfortable with this. The ascent would have expanded the air in your lungs. You would have been able to "blow bubbles" on the ascent. Assuming this wasn't a deep dive and were within NDL, then there is a very, very small risk of diver injury due to decompression issues. I think this is a viable decision from the depth discussed by the OP.

Dive down to the buddy... Although this worked, I think some have missed a few potential problems. First, the buddy wasn't right there. That is the first breakdown in the buddy system. That would leave questions in my head about how good of a buddy that is. If the OP descended to the "buddy", would that buddy be good enough to not panic and allow for shared breathing? How would the buddy react when the frantic diver approaches? Could they unclip the octo? Does the octo work? Did they go over sharing procedures prior to the dive?

Second, if the OP and the buddy had the same dive profiles and same basic starting pressures, is the buddy extremely low on air as well? (since we still haven't determined that there was a loss of gas at some point in the dive!). Starting a buddy breathe in this situation could have endangered both divers as they could both be now 7 feet deeper and both out of air and in panic.

I am glad that everything worked out. When considering this decision, I don't see one option necessarily better than the other. Either was an option. Both had risks. Any small change in the events could have been disastrous.

Im all for the buddy system. However, I also believe that every diver needs to be self sufficient. You may be comfortable with how you will react in an emergency, but you have no idea how a "buddy" will react. You must be ready for this.

I think it is very important for the OP to find out what it was the caused the OOA situation and remedy that. Assumptions on what the cause was don't work. I don't see how a pushed drysuit inflator valve by the BC would not be noticed by the diver. The OP should have noticed a huge change in bouyancy as well as air blowing out the vent at a considerable rate. Both, good indications that there could be a problem. Just to all of a sudden realize you have no air just doesn't make sense (unless it was a gauge issue, and thus questioning whether the buddy was the right choice as they would be low on air as well.)

[NWGratefulDiver]

Respectfully, you're wrong. Exactly how many embolized divers have you seen and allowed to die? And I'm not talking two different situations. Drop your weights from your drysuit at the bottom sometime. You don't breach, you don't come up feet-first (unless you started that way), you don't bust the surface and pop half-way out. You don't break your neck. In a shell type drysuit (I wear a CLX-450) from 40 feet to the surface, I estimate ascent rate at about 100 FPM, between two and three times what is recommended. I didn't die.

Depends entirely on what you're wearing for an undergarment, and how much weight you have to wear in order to offset the undergarment's inherent buoyancy.

You live in Florida ... what sort of undergarment do you use under that CLX-450? The person you responded to lives in Buffalo, NY. I'd be willing to bet he wears a much heavier one, and correspondingly more weight.

There's a huge difference between dropping a 10 lb belt and a 25 lb belt ... and in my area it's not uncommon for newer divers, especially, to be wearing much more than 25 lbs. I have seen people drop weights and rocket to the surface ... it's not pretty.


You've read way too many accounts in the "scare the new diver" manual, and need to go out and get some life experience. The highest diving embolism mortality rate I could find as related to scuba was 23%. I may be beating the odds.

In the time I've been diving I've known three people who embolized ... they all died.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Valhalla]

In fairness to the instructor there has to be a cut-off point (depth) at which point a diver may choose a CESA as opposed to testing the rescue skills of the nearest diver. 47ft, although deep enough for all manner of trouble is within striking distance of most divers ability to effect a safe return to the surface unaided IMO. I am predicting this defense along with miss-communication from the instuctor. Instructor opionions?

[NWGratefulDiver]

I've read all the replies about what my instructor has said to me. His reasoning why is that PADI has done away with "buddy breathing" and he told me that since I swam back down to get air, I had put my buddy at risk and in harms way and I shouldn't have done that. I beg to differ as I needed air because I had no air to exhale while ascending and he had enough air for the both of us. I know when we made it to the surface, my buddy attempted to inflate my bcd by way of my octo but there was nothing left in the tank.


Scubette, I am concerned about some of the things your instructor is telling you.

Buddy breathing has nothing to do with what is going on, as you described it. You need to ask your dive instructor why you are diving with a buddy in the first place. You should ask how, since you and your buddy were supposed to be trained in air sharing, that doing so in a moment of need is putting either of you at risk. If your instructor is training you according to the mandates of his or her agency, then sharing air with your dive buddy is what you SHOULD have done under the circumstances ... and the instructor erred in telling you otherwise.

An emergency swimming ascent is called that for a reason ... it's intended to be a LAST resort, not a first one.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[NWGratefulDiver]

In fairness to the instructor there has to be a cut-off point (depth) at which point a diver may choose a CESA as opposed to testing the rescue skills of the nearest diver. 47ft, although deep enough for all manner of trouble is within striking distance of most divers ability to effect a safe return to the surface unaided IMO. I am predicting this defense along with miss-communication from the instuctor. Instructor opionions?

This instructor disagrees. You follow your training. Your training was to dive with a buddy. The primary reason you dive with a buddy is so that you can be there to assist each other if one of you has a problem that requires assistance. Every agency trains their OW divers how to share air. All agencies also teach CESA ... but they do so at shallower depths than 47 ft. A new diver pushing those limits not only doesn't know if she can make it ... but the attempt is likely to induce a level of stress that can easily lead to panic ... which could lead to a much more serious situation.

So which is better ... to do something that you were trained to do under the circumstances, or to do something that pushes the limits of your training, and presents inherent hazards beyond what you have been trained to deal with?

I know, for certain, which I'm going to advise my students to do.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Valhalla]

This instructor disagrees. You follow your training. Your training was to dive with a buddy. The primary reason you dive with a buddy is so that you can be there to assist each other if one of you has a problem that requires assistance. Every agency trains their OW divers how to share air. All agencies also teach CESA ... but they do so at shallower depths than 47 ft. A new diver pushing those limits not only doesn't know if she can make it ... but the attempt is likely to induce a level of stress that can easily lead to panic ... which could lead to a much more serious situation.

So which is better ... to do something that you were trained to do under the circumstances, or to do something that pushes the limits of your training, and presents inherent hazards beyond what you have been trained to deal with?

I know, for certain, which I'm going to advise my students to do.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,
That all makes perfect sence to me. The playing out of all senarios is what is so benefical from regular particiation on this and other boards. I know I am a much better and safer diver now having been so active on the boards the past year. If the buddy system were foolproof there would be no need for CESA training. I am just saying...

[paddler3d]

A lot of good info on here.

A question for the OP which I couldn't find in any of the follow up posts. Well, it didn't jump out and bite me.

Did you have any ditchable weight? You mention an Zena BC, which isn't a BP. If you're properly weighted, you should have no air in your BC around 500psi and be neutral for your safety stop.

This is to anyone with a hose less AI computer. I'm not sure if your computer is hose less or not. My wife's rig is an Aeries Atmos AI hose less computer. For my sanity sake, she doesn't dive frequently, I put an SPG on her rig and it is clipped to her BC. It is faced away from her so I can easily see it. Also, it verifies what the computer is telling her. It is +/- 50psi.

Another way to verify you computer vs. tank pressure is to ask, or watch the gauges, when you get your tanks filled. I do it all the time with mine. If I ended the dive with 1100psi, I see what the pressure is when they are getting filled. If it is close to 1100psi, my gauge is working just fine.

About pony bottles. A 3cuft is real small. Frankly I'd look at something a wee bit larger, 19-40cutft.

[Brewski]

as some may know, a diver cannot use their BCD for buoyancy control underwater while diving with a drysuit.
This is not true, while it is common for instructors to teach using your suit for bouyancy control to minimize mistakes new DS users can make trying to manage two air sources, it is prefered to only add enough air to the suit to loft your undergarment for warmth and use the BCD for control


Low and behold, I was at 47 feet depth with 550 psi left in my tank. I signaled to my instructor and buddy and we started to ascend slowly.550 is much to low to begin your ascent, why didn't you start your ascent at 1000PSI?

This is what happened next. When I reached 43 feet, all of a sudden all of my air was gone. Within seconds!!! Couldn't believe it. My buddy was approx 7ft below me as I was ascending just above him. I had already exhaled just prior to my air running out and could not inhale any air. There was no air in my BCD. I was stuck, stuck with no air in my lungs to slowly exhale or "aahhh" on the controlled ascent. My airway was closed. Actually, there was no controlled emergency ascent. I kept ascending, was at 32 feet, looked up to the surface and knew I could not make it. I felt like I was going to choke or fight for a last breath from somewhere, but knew it would be water. Didn't know what to do. My gut took over and I made a last ditch effort and swam down about 8ft to my buddy and grabbed his alternate air. I know I wasn't suppose to swim back down, but I had to, to essentially save my own life.The greatest lesson you can learn from this part is to stay with your buddy! I stress this point to my students constantly. you should not have been separated by 7 - 8 feet, if you were ascending together looking at each other, you could have simply signaled out of oar taken your buddy's octo and continued to ascend in control.

To run out of air is one scary moment, but to run out of air and have NO air in your lungs to exhale to make a controlled emergency ascent is TOTALLY different. Indeed it is, gladly your safe and able to post your experience here. Not only did you learn some valuable lessons, but others who read this will as well.

Besides from purchasing a pony bottle or 3cft spare tank, are there other skills or what could I have done when I had absolutely no air left in my lungs to exhale to make an ascent quicker than my buddy was ascending?? Very, very unsettling.You really don't need a pony bottle, you need to monitor your air closer, and learn to ascend sooner. Don't push the limits like that. Your instructor really should have stressed some gas management. The simplest method is to use a rule of thirds. use one third your gas to start your dive, use the second third to return to the ascent point, and the final third is for travel to the surface and possible emergency use. had you followed this simple technique you would not have experienced that very frightening ascent.

[Brewski]

Scubette
From the post you have made I would recommend you re-watch the open water DVD if you own it. Read your open water manual again. And forget some of the bad information you say your instructor taught you.
You should be able to maintain a safe distance with your buddy. You need to understand that the first course of action in an out of air situation is to signal OOA, then secure your buddies octopus, only when you have your buddy's octopus in hand are you to remove your regulator. Then when you have calmed down the two of you safely ascend to the surface.

Please review your open water materials and understand them completely. for your own safety.

[Lead_carrier]

Thank you so much for all of your replies. They mean alot to me!! Regarding the drysuit, it was a rental from the manufacturer at their demonstration day. The rest of the gear is mine which was purchased new four months ago. My instructor taught us to use the drysuit for buoyancy control, not the BCD. That's probably why my buoyancy was out of control and used up alot of air. But I do not recall inflating the drysuit once after I saw my air was at 550. I was just shocked and will take y'all's advice to have my SPG checked out as well. My instructor told me 5 times after this happened that I should have went to the surface regardless, never to dive back down. I guess that's why it's still unsettling to me.

Just my opinion, Change instructors. Sounds as if some of his judgements could be a bit questionable.

[BabyDuck]

The simplest method is to use a rule of thirds. use one third your gas to start your dive, use the second third to return to the ascent point, and the final third is for travel to the surface and possible emergency use. had you followed this simple technique you would not have experienced that very frightening ascent.

this may or may not be a viable rule (not gonna argue that point), but it is *not* the rule of thirds. the rule of thirds is one third to the farthest point, one third back out from the farthest point, and one third for emergencies. by rule of thirds, you are getting back on the boat with 1000psi if you started with 3000 and didn't have any emergencies.

[geokr]

Think the smartest thing you did was 'fess up and ask for advice on this - you sure got it! I learned a lot reading rather than living the experiences of others as I'm sure we all did. Thanks for your post.

[Thalassamania]

A buddy who is 7 feet away (too far away, but that's another tale) is a superior choice to an OOA ascet of 47 feet. You made the right decision, you've got the right instinctls.

As far as an ascent is concerned, if you had your dry suit valve set properly it should have been relatively easy to make a fairly controlled ascent, however, at 60 FPM that'd take 3/4 of a minute, longer than you might be comfortable with.

With respect to a 26lb positive ascent, with proper flare and shoulder valve settings it is not a big deal. In a full flare with dry suit and my shoulder valve set to just the comfortable side of shrink wrap I can drop a 30 odd lbs belt and still hold my ascent under 60 fpm; it's a matter of flaring back enough that you rise through the water much like a fluttering leaf falls through the air.

[NWGratefulDiver]

With respect to a 26lb positive ascent, with proper flare and shoulder valve settings it is not a big deal. In a full flare with dry suit and my shoulder valve set to just the comfortable side of shrink wrap I can drop a 30 odd lbs belt and still hold my ascent under 60 fpm; it's a matter of flaring back enough that you rise through the water much like a fluttering leaf falls through the air.


It's also a matter of having the background, skill and mindset to pull it off.

There are lots of things I can do now that I could not as a newly certified diver ... and would not recommend to any newly certified diver. Notwithstanding their physical ability to do it, self-confidence can play a huge part in the success or failure of any unplanned maneuver ... which is why I believe your first option should almost always be to follow your training. As your experience grows, so do your options for dealing with emergencies. Of course, as your experience grows, you should be learning how to avoid those situations in the first place.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Thalassamania]

I agree with you Bob, I further believe that training should include items like how to properly conduct a buoyant ascent so that you're not trying it blind.

[scubette]

Think the smartest thing you did was 'fess up and ask for advice on this - you sure got it! I learned a lot reading rather than living the experiences of others as I'm sure we all did. Thanks for your post.

You're welcome. I purposely posted it because I am not afraid of or shy away from being critiqued. I made my post for that reason. And while I am receptive to the constructive feedback, I am also glad to hear all of the positive comments as well.

[Lj82]

I agree with you Bob, I further believe that training should include items like how to properly conduct a buoyant ascent so that you're not trying it blind.

We did this in our NAUI advance scuba diver class, was it not part of the syllabus? I am not sure if our instructor added this skill to teach us or if it is part of the syllabus.

He made us use our BCD to initiate an ascent and flaring open to slow down the ascent. Is this the "bouyant ascent" you are talking about? :confused:

[Thalassamania]

I mean full, flat out, drop of weight belt while wearing either a full wet suit or a dry suit.

[Lj82]

I mean full, flat out, drop of weight belt while wearing either a full wet suit or a dry suit.

Ok, we didn't drop the weight belt. Thanks for the clarification.

[Buzoferoz]

Does your instructor facilitate a manual for that course??

[edm81363]

If you do end up having your computer tested for accuracy, make sure they check it at both 3000psi and 500psi. I'm much more interested in having my gauge read correctly at the end of a dive...

[AbyssalPlains]

My instructor taught us to use the drysuit for buoyancy control, not the BCD. That's probably why my buoyancy was out of control and used up alot of air.

Basic misunderstanding here. For your buoyancy, it doesn't matter whether the air you are using to increase your volume underwater is in your BC or in your drysuit. Therefore, whether you use your suit or your BC for buoyancy control, the amount of air you spend on that is exactly the same.

Second, while some people (including me) believe in using the drysuit as the sole means of buoyancy control and the BC for backup only, that does not mean you CAN'T use your BC AND your drysuit if that works better for you.

Third, if your buoyancy was out of control when using the drysuit for buoyancy control and not the BC, you were most likely overweighted. When weighted right, adjusting your buoyancy should feel the same regardless of whether you are using your drysuit or your BC.

[AfterDark]

Buddy Breathing was dropped. With an octopus (alternate air source) you might perform a alternate air source ascent, which the OP accomplished in fine fashon. If PADI were to drop the requirement for an alternate air source, then they would have to start teaching buddy breathing. Just sayin'.

OK I guess a few of us didn't read or retain all of what was in her postings. Here's is what I was responding to concerning buddy breathing and octp.:
SCUBETTE wrote in her original post: Didn't know what to do. My gut took over and I made a last ditch effort and swam down about 8ft to my buddy and grabbed his alternate air. I know I wasn't suppose to swim back down, but I had to, to essentially save my own life.
She didn't buddy breathe
In another post she wrote: I've read all the replies about what my instructor has said to me. His reasoning why is that PADI has done away with "buddy breathing" and he told me that since I swam back down to get air, I had put my buddy at risk and in harms way and I shouldn't have done that. I beg to differ as I needed air because I had no air to exhale while ascending and he had enough air for the both of us. I know when we made it to the surface, my buddy attempted to inflate my bcd by way of my octo but there was nothing left in the tank.

So if her PADI instructor told her PADI dropped buddy breathing and she was breathing from her buddies ocpt. I put 2 + 2 together and surmised that
PADI must consider using your buddies octp "buddy breathing". Hence, I asked if PADI was going to drop the octp requirement. I know what buddy breathing is I've done it for real once in a OOA situation. I said it mostly tongue in cheek and to show that her instructor probably doesn't know what he's talking about, but I guess it was too subtle. Just thought I'd clear that up.
One more thought alternate air supply the way I understand the word alternate would be another tank and reg. An octp. is a alternate 2nd stage.

[Wookie]

OK I guess a few of us didn't read or retain all of what was in her postings. Here's is what I was responding to concerning buddy breathing and octp.:
SCUBETTE wrote in her original post: Didn't know what to do. My gut took over and I made a last ditch effort and swam down about 8ft to my buddy and grabbed his alternate air. I know I wasn't suppose to swim back down, but I had to, to essentially save my own life.
She didn't buddy breathe
In another post she wrote: I've read all the replies about what my instructor has said to me. His reasoning why is that PADI has done away with "buddy breathing" and he told me that since I swam back down to get air, I had put my buddy at risk and in harms way and I shouldn't have done that. I beg to differ as I needed air because I had no air to exhale while ascending and he had enough air for the both of us. I know when we made it to the surface, my buddy attempted to inflate my bcd by way of my octo but there was nothing left in the tank.

So if her PADI instructor told her PADI dropped buddy breathing and she was breathing from her buddies ocpt. I put 2 + 2 together and surmised that
PADI must consider using your buddies octp "buddy breathing". Hence, I asked if PADI was going to drop the octp requirement. I know what buddy breathing is I've done it for real once in a OOA situation. I said it mostly tongue in cheek and to show that her instructor probably doesn't know what he's talking about, but I guess it was too subtle. Just thought I'd clear that up.
One more thought alternate air supply the way I understand the word alternate would be another tank and reg. An octp. is a alternate 2nd stage.

I've found that on website chatboards, communication is very limited because tone, emphasis, and inflection of voice are missing. Emoticons can help with that. Bost board members know that if you are being sarcastic, a wink ( ;) ) works well to convey the sarcasm, a grin ( :D ) when you aren't really conveying that you think the poster is stupid, and raised eyebrows ( :eyebrow: ) for conveying tongue-in-cheek statements. Sorry for assuming you didn't know what a BB ascent was.

Frank

[AfterDark]

Wookie, No sorry requried my friend:D I just wanted to clear up what my intent was with the wiseguy octp. dig.;) Her instructor is how do I put this......full of what makes the grass go green:eyebrow: and that was another thing that he told her that was of such stuff:shocked2:and since nobody else picked up on it I thought I would:D
I guess at heart I'm just a vintage diver, I don't much care for ocpt.,PDC,reef sticks,or another manner of new and improved. I'd rather buddy breathe with someone, you can hold their arm, look them right in the eyes and see if they are about to panic and maybe give'm;)and a:kiss2:to calm em down.:cool2:

How'd I do?:mooner::D

[JimLap]

You're welcome. I purposely posted it because I am not afraid of or shy away from being critiqued. I made my post for that reason. And while I am receptive to the constructive feedback, I am also glad to hear all of the positive comments as well.

Having read thru the whole thread I'm going to make some guesses as to your OW training.
1. You did all skills kneeling in the pool and on checkouts
2. The extent of gas management covered in your course was be back at the surface/on the boat with 500psi
3. When in the pool you were told about the buddy system but not required to maintain a constant distance from your buddy (if you had one assigned) no matter what was going on. I require students to maintain buddy distance of no more than an arm's length at all times unless I specifically tell them otherwise
4. On checkout dives you may have had a buddy assigned but most of the time you were not really paying attention to them and when swimming you ended up in single file formation
5. On your ascents and descents you were not in position at all times to look in your buddy's eyes to see how they were doing, nor did you communicate with them.

There are other items I could surmise but that;s enough for now. If these are correct you were very lucky that you did not get hurt and you absolutely handled the situation the correct way. Also as others have said it's time to get a new instructor. What kind of orientation to the suit did you get from the manufacturers rep or did they leave it up to wonder boy to describe how the suit works?

I said this in another thread but I'll repeat it here. PADI and other agencies as well seem to think that controlling two buoyancy devices is too much task loading when first trying a drysuit. And to be honest with the dumbing down of training and shortened courses it is easy to see how this could be said. However if one has had good training to begin with and can already control their buoyancy with two sources (remember those things called lungs?) adding a drysuit inflator and dump valve is not an issue for someone of reasonable intelligence. All it takes is a willingness to learn on the part of the student and an instructor who knows what he/she is talking about. Yours does not.

[Wookie]

Wookie, No sorry requried my friend:D I just wanted to clear up what my intent was with the wiseguy octp. dig.;) Her instructor is how do I put this......full of what makes the grass go green:eyebrow: and that was another thing that he told her that was of such stuff:shocked2:and since nobody else picked up on it I thought I would:D
I guess at heart I'm just a vintage diver, I don't much care for ocpt.,PDC,reef sticks,or another manner of new and improved. I'd rather buddy breathe with someone, you can hold their arm, look them right in the eyes and see if they are about to panic and maybe give'm;)and a:kiss2:to calm em down.:cool2:

How'd I do?:mooner::D

Nice!:mooner:

[Splitlip]

Sorry. I read troll.

[AfterDark]

Sorry. I read troll.

Hey Tim, I really like your signature! :cool2: There is/was an outfit out of I think NJ that used the name Gorilla Divers. I had their T-Shirt for years. It had a picture Magilla Gorilla with a mask and a reg holding up a porthole. That was my "official" diving T-shirt for years.:D

[Splitlip]

Hey Tim, I really like your signature! :cool2: There is/was an outfit out of I think NJ that used the name Gorilla Divers. I had their T-Shirt for years. It had a picture Magilla Gorilla with a mask and a reg holding up a porthole. That was my "official" diving T-shirt for years.:D

Thanks!

I cannot take credit.
Dan Volker, a forum member, wrote the story.
DEEP DIVE (http://www.sfdj.com/dive/deep.html)
Frank Hammet was my instructor in 1973.

Guerrilla, however. :D

[ae3753]

Besides from purchasing a pony bottle or 3cft spare tank, are there other skills or what could I have done when I had absolutely no air left in my lungs to exhale to make an ascent quicker than my buddy was ascending?? Very, very unsettling.

Welcome to ScubaBoard, it's great to have you here even under a stressful and dangerous situation.

There is absolutely no need or benefit of a pony bottle or a spare air system.

My list of skills:
1. Gas Management. Bob's gas management article (http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/articles/gas.html), Brian's rock bottom discussion (http://www.frogkickdiving.com/Rock_Bottom.php), and Lamont's gas management and rock bottom for recreational divers (http://www.scriptkiddie.org/diving/rockbottom.html) article are all great resources. Learning the whys and hows of proper gas management will reduce the likelihood of running out of air.

2. Buddy skills. Learn proper positioning and communication and be an active buddy. Swim at the same horizontal level and communicate with each other during the dive. If there is an issue underwater, then getting to your buddy for assistance will less effort.

3. S-Drills or OOA drills. Practice a safety-drill or out-of-air drill with your buddies. Be comfortable donating and receiving and doing ascents. So if there is a real OOA situation, then you know it can easily be management.

[Wookie]

Dan Volker, a forum member, wrote the story.
DEEP DIVE (http://www.sfdj.com/dive/deep.html)




Awesome story. How would it be to run a charter boat with divers like that now?

[Splitlip]

Not so many do them now.

Emerald does I believe.

[AfterDark]

They called themselves Guerrilla Divers.
Composed of elite divers with Macho mentalities, back when men were men, and FEAR was a lispy companion of the common Man. It was a time before insurance liabilities, lawsuits or beauracratic regulation of the "sport". Guerrilla divers didn't need "Buoyancy Compensator Vests". In fact, "Anyone who needs a BC deserves to drown" was a popular adage. Exploration and the Hunt came first, excitement and fun followed. Safety was the stepchild of fitness, good reflexes and a cool head.
This was a time of great Adventure

It describes to a tee the era in which I started diving and the guys I used to dive with. Before BCD's,SPG's,and PDC's. We started out a little positive fought our way down to a depth that we weren't and coped with it when we became negitive. I was the 1st to dare wear a UDT horsecollar with an oral inflator! What a rasing I took, but after seeing how effortly I swam along and seeing how much my gas I wasn't using. I miss those days,some of diving is better today and some isn't.

[Abaco24]

Dear Scuba Gods.............

Thank you for being with our OP on his first dive, God Bless Him for not feeling the need to feel the power of rising to your sea surface with the many products offered to divers, but rather yielding to our well deserved training of our almighty dive instructors.

Also wish him the best for finding his big yellow diver buddies Octo to avoid a repeat situation. If he should find himself in another similar situation we pray Oh Mighty scuba Gods that you protect him with the many search capabilities here on SB, so that he may be healed with the knowledge of 25 years of senior divers .

May he be healed in your graces on all future dives....In Divers Scuba Board Members we agree,

Amen

[Brewski]

What kind of orientation to the suit did you get from the manufacturers rep or did they leave it up to wonder boy to describe how the suit works?


Having recently volunteered to be one of the instructors for a dry suit demo day, I can tell you the pre event briefing basically has the instructors give the testers an orientation, check for weighting, and then lead a tour. we were told that this is not a dry suit class but rather an experience dive.

Now we were all given some good advice from the mfg rep to make our job easier, add that to our own experience diving dry suits, I believe we performed a safe experience for the participants.

I assume Scubettes experience may have been similar.

[AfterDark]

Having recently volunteered to be one of the instructors for a dry suit demo day, I can tell you the pre event briefing basically has the instructors give the testers an orientation, check for weighting, and then lead a tour. we were told that this is not a dry suit class but rather an experience dive.

Now we were all given some good advice from the mfg rep to make our job easier, add that to our own experience diving dry suits, I believe we performed a safe experience for the participants.

I assume Scubettes experience may have been similar.

Scubette, version did sound quite as rosy as yours.:shakehead:

[AfterDark]

Dear Scuba Gods.............

Thank you for being with our OP on his first dive, God Bless Him for not feeling the need to feel the power of rising to your sea surface with the many products offered to divers, but rather yielding to our well deserved training of our almighty dive instructors.

Also wish him the best for finding his big yellow diver buddies Octo to avoid a repeat situation. If he should find himself in another similar situation we pray Oh Mighty scuba Gods that you protect him with the many search capabilities here on SB, so that he may be healed with the knowledge of 25 years of senior divers .

May he be healed in your graces on all future dives....In Divers Scuba Board Members we agree,

Amen

It's her/she not him/he and the instructor gave her heck for going for the octp.

[Splitlip]

:troll:
Don't feed 'em.

[Valhalla]

Not so many do them now.

Emerald does I believe.

Hypnautical Charters as well...

[djinnah]

I'm a new divemaster as of 8/2009 and was on the dive with Scubette. I'd like to add additional details that may offer more insight.

I feel the instructors knowledge that her dive buddy is legally visually handicapped is critical in this scenario.

1. She's diving with her buddy who is "legally blind" with limited visual capabiltiy but I used to be his dive buddy and can say he is VERY capable and has enough vision to safely dive as well as assist. He does require the use of a magnifier to read his gadges.
2. She is a new open water certified diver as of only a few months ago.
3. She was trying demo DUI drysuits for the first time.
4. The dive group was probably too large. I believe but not positive the group was 10people and 1 instructor. If that's accurate then I believe the instructors had to many students.

Knowing these add'l details is reason enough to expect an instructor to provide special considerations when training students. I'm not blaming the instructor however he should have insured they were both close to his side and quickly assist in getting her teamed up with her buddy or to personally assist in a low air situation. When he was told she had only 550 PSI there was time for the instructor to insure that she and her dive buddy were partnered up and assending.

In short, instructors need to evaluate their student before entering the water and then train and assist based on good judgement especially when dealing with a visually impaired diver.

New students need to be able to safely rely on instructors and there ability to assist based on the divers experience and physical capabilities.

If I were the instructor, I would have made the group no more than 6 students to account for these add'l concerns. Unfortunately, I was teamed up with a dive buddy I did not know and he could not decent below 30 feet because of ear pressue issues.

My 2 cents.
Divemaster D

[AfterDark]

I sounds to me like the her instructor was in over his head, made some incorrect conclusions and then gave some equally incorrect advice. She should have been debriefed after the dive and then been given the correct advice based on her answers during the debriefing. Also a pat on the back for being in a OOA situation after a exhale and keeping her head enough to do go in the opposite direction that nature intended and reach for her buddies octp and not his for certain working primary 2nd stage! Credit should be given where due to build confidence in a student. IMO from what I've read here that wasn't done.

[JimLap]

I'm a new divemaster as of 8/2009 and was on the dive with Scubette. I'd like to add additional details that may offer more insight.

I feel the instructors knowledge that her dive buddy is legally visually handicapped is critical in this scenario.

1. She's diving with her buddy who is "legally blind" with limited visual capabiltiy but I used to be his dive buddy and can say he is VERY capable and has enough vision to safely dive as well as assist. He does require the use of a magnifier to read his gadges.
2. She is a new open water certified diver as of only a few months ago.
3. She was trying demo DUI drysuits for the first time.
4. The dive group was probably too large. I believe but not positive the group was 10people and 1 instructor. If that's accurate then I believe the instructors had to many students.

Knowing these add'l details is reason enough to expect an instructor to provide special considerations when training students. I'm not blaming the instructor however he should have insured they were both close to his side and quickly assist in getting her teamed up with her buddy or to personally assist in a low air situation. When he was told she had only 550 PSI there was time for the instructor to insure that she and her dive buddy were partnered up and assending.

In short, instructors need to evaluate their student before entering the water and then train and assist based on good judgement especially when dealing with a visually impaired diver.

New students need to be able to safely rely on instructors and there ability to assist based on the divers experience and physical capabilities.

If I were the instructor, I would have made the group no more than 6 students to account for these add'l concerns. Unfortunately, I was teamed up with a dive buddy I did not know and he could not decent below 30 feet because of ear pressue issues.

My 2 cents.
Divemaster D

You do know that with this added info had she actually been injured you would have been required to file a report outlining what had happened? In fact in the conditions you describe this could be called a serious lapse in judgment and, if scubette wished to persue it, grounds for a quality report to the agency. I have personally seen a similar one filed for less. The instructor seriously needs to reevaluate their training methods and get current on standards as well as standard practices. Before they get someone hurt or their instructor card pulled.

[Tom Holmes]

I read this post with great interest as I have recently purchased a Dry Suit and am going to do the PADI class in the pool (to begin with) next week. The comments on buoyancy between BCD and suit are well received and will become part of my psyque in the coming weeks.

I am curious. . . . . . I have read the PADI book which tends to spend way too much time on materials and how to purchase rather than diving safely. My dive shop didn't have the DVD for the crew pack when I bought the book. Has anyone seen the DVD and if so did it help?

Thanks for the information from all of you

[carrielsal]

My dive started at 2875 psi. My spg showed 000 while still somewhat deep. When my buddy and I surfaced, he tried to inflate my bcd to see if there was any air left, there was none. That's why I'm thinking my BCD that zips up the front and had to be unzipped about 2" to make room for the drysuit inflator button was maybe depressed from my diving movements without my knowing. I don't know. I couldn't hear it as I had a hood on as well. I did attempt to inhale on the way up 2x, but could not and could not exhale either and that's when I bolted back down to my buddy.

I am just very, very thankful and I want to give my sincere thanks to everyone for their replies because I could not make sense or justify what I was told more than several times.

It does sound like your bd could have been hitting the inflator button. Have you thought about going to a bp/w?

Carrie

[Web Monkey]

It does sound like your bd could have been hitting the inflator button. Have you thought about going to a bp/w?

Carrie

A hardware solution to a skills problem?

Terry