My near-miss in the Galapagos

[Leejnd]

I’m posting about an incident that happened to me a few days ago in the Galapagos Islands. Let me just say that I’m extremely grateful to be posting this myself, and in the “near misses” forum rather than the accidents forum! And I’m not posting this in the “mishap analysis” forum because I think all the lessons to be learned are pretty self-evident. I’m really doing it more as a reminder to other divers not to make the same mistakes I did…and yes, I realize where my mistakes are. I also want to call out the dive op, Sub-Aqua in Puerto Ayorta, on Santa Cruz Island, Galapagos, Ecuador. Based on my experience with them, they are ripe to lose someone, and soon, if they don’t change their practices and upgrade their gear.

My husband, Charlie, and I were on a three week small-group adventure tour to Machu Picchu and Galapagos. This tour does not include any diving, but the final two days of the tour were at a hotel in the Galapagos (after spending several days on a small ship around the islands), so we chose to forgo the land-based group activities on those two days and go diving on our own.

We booked these dives with a woman who is active on SB in the South America forum, who leads land and dive tours in the Galapagos, and has numerous contacts there. She recommended this particular dive operator, and acted as booking agent. We paid her, she booked with the dive op. I will not identify her here, but she is welcome to jump in and identify herself if she wants. I will say that I am absolutely thrilled with her response to this…I emailed her the story yesterday from my Blackberry while in between flights home, and before I even landed, she’d emailed me her horror at my experience, and paypalled me the total amount of refund that I requested, from her own pocket, not even knowing yet if the dive op will refund it to her (and they damn well better). She has promised to immediately address this with the dive op, and not send any more divers their way until she feels the situation has been adequately resolved. So kudos to her!

Anyway, to get on with the story:

On the first day (Fri) we arrived at the dive shop before the specified time of 1 pm, and were fitted for equipment. We were concerned to see how old and worn out the equipment was, but since we'd already paid for the dives we went ahead.

Now, some are going to say that these were mistakes #1 & 2: never pay for dives before you’ve gone on them, and never go with a dive op with old-looking equipment. That is unrealistic. I have been diving all over the world, and many LDSs, particularly in third-world countries, are just not up to the gear standards those of us in the US are accustomed to. And FEW dive ops will take you diving unless you pay first. The vast majority also have rigid no-refund policies…if you book the dives, and choose not to do them for any reason, you lose your money, end of story. I believe this is a dangerous policy, and can too often lead divers to choose to go ahead with dives in spite of misgivings because they just don’t want to throw away hundreds of dollars due to a bad gut feeling.

As for bringing our own gear, that was not an option. Our tour group had very limited luggage allowances, and had we brought our gear, we basically wouldn’t have been able to bring CLOTHES!

So moving along: it took them hours to get organized, and we didn't actually get underway on the boat until 3:30pm. Note that at the equator, sunset comes at 6pm all year round, so that didn’t leave us a lot of time to get two dives and a decent surface interval in before dark. The boat itself was very unpleasant to be on...it was heavily burning oil and filling with noxious fumes, making us all nauseous even in the calm bay. Then they couldn't find the promised dive site, which was supposed to be an underwater pinnacle in Academy Bay called El Bajo...the DM told us the boat’s sonar was broken so they tried to find it by the archaic method of dropping a line with a dive weight on the end. Finally, unable to find it after several tries, they took us to a rocky site at the mouth of the bay where there was very little life. Already this outfit was beginning to look like the Three Stooges of Ecuador.

We had two DMs with us: one named Luis, whose English was rudimentary at best, and one named Walter who spoke no English. Divers included the two of us, a couple from Florida, and three guys from Spain.

Once we got to the dive site, they had us do buoyancy checks since we were all using different gear than we’re used to, and kilos instead of pounds. But strangely, they insisted we do them without our gear on – just weight belts over our wetsuits, which we thought was very bizarre. But then once gearing up they didn't even pay attention to the amount of weight we were supposed to have – they just haphazardly started throwing weight belts at us, and even gave my husband the wrong one – which we didn’t catch because they all looked the same.

Mistake #1: don’t trust the DMs to keep track of your weights/gear. Make sure you know which is yours, and even mark them in some way so they don’t get mixed up with others.

Once it was time to go in, they must have finally realized how late it was as they suddenly started rushing like madmen, making us gear up so quickly and jump in that we didn't have a chance to do a proper buddy check with this unfamiliar gear. Then, Charlie couldn't descend because they’d given him the wrong weight belt without enough weight. And for some incomprehensible reason they put the non-English speaking DM with the 4 Americans, and Luis with the 3 Spanish guys! So Charlie couldn't get our DM to understand that he needed more weight. He finally was able to signal the skipper to hand him another weight block from the boat, which he slipped into his BCD pocket.

Mistake #2: don’t be sheep, even when on a DM-led dive in a foreign country. MAKE the damn DM wait until YOU are comfortable with your gear, and feel ready to go in.

The dive was utterly boring. We saw nothing more than the same surgeonfish we'd been seeing snorkeling all week. Worse, my BCD was malfunctioning...it wouldn't hold air! Because it was such a shallow dive (40 ft max) I didn't discover this until the end of the dive at the surface, when it wouldn't inflate to keep me afloat. Fortunately I'm a strong swimmer and it was very calm in the Bay so it wasn't a problem, I was able to fin myself to the boat and get out. But it ticked me off.

Everyone was unhappy with the dive. Initially we all decided not to even bother doing a second dive. My husband was livid over the fact that they'd given malfunctioning gear to his wife, and we were all disappointed in the dive site. We were also dismayed at how they sloppily tossed around the gear, walked all over it, didn't pay attention to which belonged to whom.

After a little while, the couple from Florida decided to do the second dive because it was their last day in the Galapagos. I decided to go ahead with them and DM Walter, using my husband's working BCD (he was not interested in doing another dive with these clowns). It was a shallow and easy dive, so as long as my gear worked, I knew I’d be fine. This dive was slightly better only because we saw one big ol’ Galapagos shark in the distance, but it was getting dark so the vis was bad. And when we surfaced, no one was even watching for us! Charlie saw us pop up some distance away, but it took him many minutes to get the attention of the skipper, and the chase dinghy wasn't even available...the other DM had taken the Spanish guys out to photograph sea lions on the rocks! The skipper couldn’t be bothered to move the boat closer to us. It was a very long surface swim back to the boat, and by the time we got there it was dark, and we had no lights.

The next day we were scheduled to go to an advanced site out in the open ocean, known as Gordon Rocks. After such a bad experience, Charlie chose not to go at all. He has only about 50 dives, to my 150, and he was just not comfortable with them. I made the difficult decision to go ahead with it, which I realize now was a mistake...one that could have been disastrous. But I kept thinking that I doubt I will ever get to the Galapagos again, and these were very expensive dives ($170 for two tanks) so I chose to take the risk.

Mistake #3: Trust your gut. If the dive op seems unsafe, DON’T GO WITH THEM! What’s more important, your money or your life?

The next morning at the shop, I was very insistent that I NOT be given the same BCD as the day before. This time we had different DMs, all of whom spoke at least some English, and they promised me it was different equipment. I couldn't tell because frankly all the gear was pretty crappy, but they kept assuring me it was different. Okay then.

Fortunately it was a different boat which didn't blow oil. I will also say that these DMs were a bit more professional than the others, and they gave a good briefing of what to expect at the site, so I felt better about my choice to go ahead.

Gordon Rocks is one of the most advanced, challenging dive sites I have ever dived. It’s an old volcanic caldera, with three big rocks in a circle, and three inlets into the crater, all of which let in competing ocean currents. No matter how calm it might be in the open ocean, inside the caldera it is a veritable washing machine, with churning, slapping waves at the surface. When entering, you cannot linger at the surface – you have to immediately descend. Things calm down once below 10 ft, but you still have to be cautious of down-drafts due to inbound currents hitting the rocks. It’s all doable, however, as long as you can quickly descend beneath the churn, and then pay close attention to your depth and buoyancy. And at the end of the dive, it’s imperative that you finish with enough air to be able to leave your reg in, because you can NOT remove your reg and mask until you are in the boat, due to the violently turbulent surface.

We had 7 divers and three DMs. I was buddying with one of the DMs, who was also responsible for a couple of newbies from the UK (with less than 7 dives before this trip), so we had a team of 4. The other two DMs were with the other four divers, but we all stayed pretty close together. I checked my BCD on the boat, and it seemed to be working…it inflated and vented.

Entry went as planned, and we dropped to 95 ft along the rim. My BCD was functioning, as I was able to pump air in to achieve neutral buoyancy at 95 ft and then vent some out when we rose to about 60 ft. We saw some cool fish, and one hammerhead in the distance, and then when I was at about 900 psi we ascended to do a blue-water safety stop in the center of the caldera, which went fine.

Safety stop done, I surfaced in the wild wash with 700 psi, and went to inflate my BCD, only to hear a little *pop* and discover that it wouldn't hold air - it was obviously the same faulty one! Now understand that in the bay this was no big deal, but in the washing machine of Gordon Rocks this could have been deadly. I was already slightly overweighted due to the bizarre and unscientific buoyancy check of the day before, and with 4-ft churning waves splashing me hard in the face I couldn't remove my reg to get breaths. It wasn't long before my exertion to keep from sinking, and ongoing efforts to inflate my BCD, left my tank at 0...my first (and I hope only) OOA experience.

I considered ditching my weights, but I was reluctant to do so knowing that other divers were below us still doing their safety stops (we’d been the first group out, and so were the first group to surface). Fortunately I was able to get the attention of my DM buddy, who swam over. Due to his limited English I don't think he really understood my dilemma, but at least I was able to make myself understood that I was OOA – yeah, that hand signal is pretty unmistakable – and he gave me his octopus while the other DM swam over and held me aloft. I suspect they thought I was just panicky in the waves, but I assure you I was not...in fact I was well aware of my dangerous situation, and was thinking more clearly than ever. I firmly believe that had I panicked, either I would not be here to tell you this tale, or one of the other divers might not be here due to having 20 lbs of lead blocks dropped on his head.

Once aboard, I was finally able to explain the situation to the DMs. Turns out this WAS in fact the very same faulty BCD that I'd had before, which had a leak in the inflator tube that they said had been "repaired". Clearly not well enough! Naturally I was mad as hell that they gave me malfunctioning equipment at such an advanced dive site, especially when I was so adamant earlier that I get different gear. What the hell were they thinking?

I did go ahead and do the second dive, but only after making sure that they give me the extra BCD that was onboard (which would have been my husbands, had he come, and I knew his worked). Please, don’t anybody give me any lip over doing the second dive, okay? I am quite sure I will never get to the Galapagos Islands again in my life, and at that point I knew what to expect, and knew that BCD worked. I'm glad I did the second dive, as we saw a bunch more hammerheads, some sea turtles, a pod of huge eagle rays and other cool stuff -- but knowing how bad this dive op is overall, I do realize it was probably a foolhardy thing to do. I'm not proud of this, but my desire to get in one decent dive at one of the greatest dive sites on the planet won out over my misgivings with the dive op.

In the end, it was by far the worst dive op I have ever experienced. I have been diving in many places, including third world countries - Bali, Belize, Costa Rica, Mexico, French Polynesia, and more. Nothing has come close to the level of ineptitude and unprofessionalism we experienced with Sub-Aqua.

I can assure you I have related these events with rigorous honesty, so while I will brook no challenges to the integrity of my story, I am certainly open to comments, suggestions and insights. And if the owners of Sub-Aqua hear of this thread, I encourage them to come in and tell us what they are doing to improve their operation, and prevent this from happening to someone else. The Galapagos are a very remote site, with limited options for rescue/treatment should there be an accident - as we sadly know from a recent fatality there. This is NOT the place for a dive op to be sloppy with safety, or rent out malfunctioning gear.

[Kevrumbo]

LeeAnne, glad to see ya & Charlie back safe and sound. . .

Makes my complaint aboard PH Skydancer last May a trivial minor inconvenience in comparison.
(Not a good year for ScubaBoard Members traveling to Galapagos). . .

[Valhalla]

LeeAnne, an interesting story in that the booking agent responded so professionally yet her go-to dive operator performed so poorly. Either the dive operator's booking fee is so high as to make a good person go bad or there is no better operation from which she could have chosen. Whenever I have heard of dive reports from Galapagoes in the past they always involved live-aboards which may leave too few well-heeled travelers to grease the wheels of the land based operations. As far as diving without my own gear(Regulator/BCD/Computer) I am lucky to have been able to avoid that thus far in my travels but you were placed in a tough predicament with the remoteness of your destination. By the way, you write beatifully!

[sea nmf]

Wow. Glad you are OK.

[Shasta_man]

Thanks for the info and glad to hear you have survived.

As you've said, you've learned a lot from this. However, it doesn't seem that you have heeded one of the most important lessons you've pointed out yourself, which is not letting "I'm never going to be here again" syndrome determine your decisions. Multiple times you made risky decisions based on that. You did point out multiple issues but not this central one and that, I fear, will lead to potential situations in the future since, you're not bringing your own gear (perhaps just this trip but I can't tell from your story), and you go to such locations. From the list of locations you have and having more than vacation diver number of dives, it seems inconsistent that you wouldn't make the specific effort to go back to a place as famed as the Galapagos if you didn't get to dive it on this trip. Judging by my understanding of the area, this is about as tame an "incident" as you could have had.

This isn't meant to be the typical beat you up Scubaboard comment, but a thought provoker. You must have one heck of a relationship because getting hurt on the dive would be my last problem because my wife would have KILLED me for trying to go get on another rickety boat with the gang to now go to an ADVANCED site! :-)

And the newbies with 7 dives.......

[nikwho]

I'm glad you guys made it through the trip! It's hard to call off dives in a place like that. I can't say that I would not have done the same thing. It would be interesting to hear from sub-aqua on here!

[Bubbletrubble]

LeeAnne,

We are all very happy to hear that you survived the experience. Thanks for sharing your story. It also sounds like you've spent some time thinking about what could have been done differently.

I thought of a few questions that might add to the discussion:

Could you please describe in detail how you checked the functionality of the BCD during your pre-dive checks?
Do you have a systematic method of checking the functionality of a rental regulator? If so, what is it?
What kind of tank were you using?
How thick of a wetsuit did you use?
(Questions 3 and 4 are related to the 20 lbs. of ditchable weight that you mentioned in your story.)

It sounds like the newbies on your boat did quite well considering the dive conditions. I shudder to think what might have happened if one of them had pulled the short straw and gotten the faulty BCD.

[D_B]

So glad that your OK :)
and thank you for your post

Yeah, I'm not sure what I would have done on checking the gear with the DM's rushing you, but I think that with old used up equipment, I would have tried to be thorough in my checks, but then I don't know, never had to contend with any of that

Wow, it all sounds incredible, and taking newbies with only 7 dives to that 95ft, washing machine, advanced dive :shakehead:

Shasta ... I think she mentioned about not letting trip pressure you into having to make the dive
I made the difficult decision to go ahead with it, which I realize now was a mistake...one that could have been disastrous but knowing how bad this dive op is overall, I do realize it was probably a foolhardy thing to do. I'm not proud of this, Mistake #3: Trust your gut. If the dive op seems unsafe, DON’T GO WITH THEM! What’s more important, your money or your life?

[Leejnd]

I knew this post would generate some interesting discussion. That's good. But I'm also aware of that common SB scourge whereby posters of dive incidents get eviscerated and nitpicked to death, their every move being analyzed and criticized, to the point where they are sorry they ever admitted they've ever blown a bubble. I'm hoping to avoid the latter. I do want to answer any and all questions that come up in here, but I can't help but sense a couple of potential land mines. So forgive me if I seem a little wary. I'll answer as best I can, without opening myself up to a classic Scubaboard flogging.

LeeAnne, an interesting story in that the booking agent responded so professionally yet her go-to dive operator performed so poorly. Either the dive operator's booking fee is so high as to make a good person go bad or there is no better operation from which she could have chosen.

There are other dive ops that she works with, but as I understand it, the way land-based diving works in the Galapagos is, each dive op has a rotating schedule of where they can dive that day, which is dictated by, or at least approved by, the Natl. Park Service. I wanted to do Gordon Rocks (short boat ride from Puerto Ayorta, supposedly lots of hammerheads), and this was the dive op going there that day, which is why we ended up with them. But the booking agent HAS used this dive op before, and swears this is the first problem she's had with them. However, there may be at at least some truth to your comment that there was "no better" LDS she could have chosen: I was told by multiple people familiar with land-based diving there that it is relatively new in the Galapagos, and still rather behind-the-times.

Still, that doesn't excuse any of what happened. You don't give failed gear to a diver, especially at an advanced dive site...and especially when you KNOW it failed once, and she specifically asked you NOT to give the same crap to her.

Whenever I have heard of dive reports from Galapagoes in the past they always involved live-aboards which may leave too few well-heeled travelers to grease the wheels of the land based operations.

There's probably also some truth to this. The majority of diving in the Galapagos is not from land. Unfortunately, we didn't have the option of going on a live-aboard. The only reason we were there at all was because we'd been invited to go on this three-week small-group tour with some friends of ours, and it happened to include the Galapagos. We didn't do this trip FOR the diving...but being divers, how could be find ourselves in one of the top dive sites on the planet and NOT dive?

As far as diving without my own gear(Regulator/BCD/Computer) I am lucky to have been able to avoid that thus far in my travels but you were placed in a tough predicament with the remoteness of your destination.

We're pretty frequent travelers. While this trip wasn't specifically for the diving, I have done other trips that WERE exclusively for diving...e.g. Belize, Mexico, Bali. On those trips, I brought my own gear. We have also done trips in which we were there for other reasons, but were able to squeeze in some diving. Examples: French Polynesia, Costa Rica, and Galapagos. In those cases, we rented. I certainly prefer NOT to rent, but there are times when you just don't have a choice. This was one of them. But it definitely has made me question whether I EVER want to rent again. Right now, I'm thinking no.

By the way, you write beatifully! Garsh, thanks! :blinking: I'm actually a writer, so that means a lot to me.

As you've said, you've learned a lot from this. However, it doesn't seem that you have heeded one of the most important lessons you've pointed out yourself, which is not letting "I'm never going to be here again" syndrome determine your decisions.

While I appreciate your comment that your post isn't meant to be a typical SB beat-you-up comment, there are a few landmines here, which I will attempt to avoid stepping on.

Let me just say that I am quite sure that I will not get to the Galapagos again. While I am pretty well-traveled, I am still a working stiff and only have so much vacation time...and there are many other places around the globe that I haven't seen yet, that are higher up on the bucket list than a return trip to the Galapagos. We spent a week there...I saw all that I wanted to see.

That being said, you show me one person who finds it easy to walk away from literally hundreds of dollars, and a chance to dive one of the top dive sites on the planet. If they do, they are probably in a much higher tax bracket than I am, and can easily walk away from those dollar figures, as well as plan a return trip. That, sadly, is not me. I work hard for every dollar, and every vacation hour. It was NOT an easy decision...and I did already acknowledge that I am aware that it wasn't necessarily the right one. BUT...some of us are more risk averse than others. My husband, for one (obviously). Others of us consider all the factors, and are willing to accept some degree of risk. I weighed what I knew, and went for it. And hey...I did live to tell, right? In fact, you yourself even claim this was a MILD incident! So do I really deserve your comment that you feel I haven't learned the central lesson? I think I have...and I think I knew it at the time. But I made my decision to go ahead anyway. That was my choice, and I don't regret it. I'm PISSED OFF at the dive op, but hey...I got to see my hammerhead sharks!

From the list of locations you have and having more than vacation diver number of dives, it seems inconsistent that you wouldn't make the specific effort to go back to a place as famed as the Galapagos if you didn't get to dive it on this trip. Judging by my understanding of the area, this is about as tame an "incident" as you could have had.

Yes, I do more than vacation dive. I have only been certified for three years, and I have about 150 dives. Besides occasional dive travel, I actively dive at home, both on our local dive boats, and from the beach. We also own a sailboat, and have done some diving from that. As for making the effort to get back to the Galapagos...see my comments about that above. Too many other places I want to see, and not enough time to see them all.

You must have one heck of a relationship because getting hurt on the dive would be my last problem because my wife would have KILLED me for trying to go get on another rickety boat with the gang to now go to an ADVANCED site! :-)

We had a lengthy discussion about this. But after 28 years together, we both know our personal risk tolerance. I tend to be the more adventurous; he tends to be more risk-averse. Hey, we are adults...we allow each other to make our own decisions. I wasn't upset at him for choosing not to go...I understood. And he was fine with my decision to go.

And the newbies with 7 dives....... Yeah...ya like how I dropped that in there? I was wondering if anyone caught that. I was stunned to learn that they were taking out such noobs to one of the most challenging dive sites in Galapagos. Most of the stuff I read online about Gordon Rocks makes it clear that this is a site ONLY for advanced divers. I didn't learn how new they were till we were almost at the site, and we started chatting. Yeesh.

It's hard to call off dives in a place like that. I can't say that I would not have done the same thing. It would be interesting to hear from sub-aqua on here! Thanks...that's kinda the point I was trying to make. It's NOT easy to walk away...and I chose not to. Others would make other choices.

As for Sub-Aqua, I'd love to hear from them too. I haven't yet told them, or the booking agent, about this thread. I just got back last night, and banged out this post this afternoon. I'm going to tell the booking agent tomorrow that this thread is here. I didn't name her because I have no complaint with her at all...in fact, she behaved admirably...so I want to leave it to her whether or not she wants to identify herself.


I thought of a few questions that might add to the discussion:

Could you please describe in detail how you checked the functionality of the BCD during your pre-dive checks?
Do you have a systematic method of checking the functionality of a rental regulator? If so, what is it?
What kind of tank were you using?
How thick of a wetsuit did you use?
(Questions 3 and 4 are related to the 20 lbs. of ditchable weight that you mentioned in your story.)


1. My method of checking the functionality of my BCD was pretty unscientific: once I was geared up, I pumped in some air. It seemed to hold it. Then I pressed the button to vent it. It seemed to come out. Simple as that. Clearly not a good ENOUGH test...the damn thing didn't work, did it?

2. Systematic? No. I breathed on it, and breathed on the octopus, several times before I went in, while checking to make sure the needle on my pressure gauge didn't wabble. Air came out, went in to my lungs, needle didn't wabble. Must be working. What else can I do? If there is a systematic method, please share...I will be sure to use it the next time I use rental gear. Which, after this incident, may be never.

3. They were aluminum 80's.

4. I was wearing a full 5-mil suit, but no hood. This differed from what I usually wear here at home, which is a full 7-mil with hood, and sometimes a vest if it's particularly chilly that day.

I have to apologize here...20 lbs was just a number I threw out, but wasn't actually what I was wearing. To be honest, I don't remember what I was wearing! It was in kilos, and I'm just not remembering how many kilos were on that weight belt. Sorry. I'll blame the jet lag. ;)

It sounds like the newbies on your boat did quite well considering the dive conditions. I shudder to think what might have happened if one of them had pulled the short straw and gotten the faulty BCD.

They did VERY well, considering! The current was dicey, but they held their buoyancy, and followed the DM's instructions very well. I was impressed. But I have to agree...I have no idea what would have happened if one of them had gotten the bad gear. I do NOT want to sound too cocky, but I will say that I have been pleased to discover about myself that I am not the panicking type, at least not in the water. But part of that is my own comfort with diving due to some level of experience. What would I have done if I was a noob? I'm not sure! Would I have even thought to look below me before I ditched my weight belt? Hell, would I have even remembered that I had the OPTION of ditching my weight belt? A few recent threads in the accidents forum shows that ditching weights isn't something that everyone remembers when they should.

Shasta ... I think she mentioned about not letting trip pressure you into having to make the dive Thanks. That's what I was trying to say. You just said it more succinctly. :D

[openmindOW]

Thank you very much, Leeann, for posting your acount here on this Board.

And, yes, you do write well. Thanks for that also.

But I'm also aware of that common SB scourge whereby posters of dive incidents get eviscerated and nitpicked to death, their every move being analyzed and criticized, to the point where they are sorry they ever admitted they've ever blown a bubble.

Yes, that is a problem with this Thread. People are unlikely to admit mistakes if they attacked for making them. We have some jerks on ScubaBoard who attack newbies for making mistakes, and that should stop.


We have also done trips in which we were there for other reasons, but were able to squeeze in some diving. Examples: French Polynesia, Costa Rica, and Galapagos. In those cases, we rented. I certainly prefer NOT to rent, but there are times when you just don't have a choice.

You are spot-on, Leeann. Sometimes you may not have a realistic choice. The reality is that some divers will rent. That may more common as airlines raise fees for weight and luggage.

Our industry fails when it rents bad rental gear to divers. It's unacceptable.

Based on what you wrote, it sounds like you may have had 2 different problems with the BCD. Problem #1 might have been a corrugated hose with a leak - common. The hose probably got replaced; it held air the next dive.

Then you had problem #2. You heard a "pop." That sounds like a valve might have blown. Anyway, we'll never know.

That being said, you show me one person who finds it easy to walk away from literally hundreds of dollars, and a chance to dive one of the top dive sites on the planet.

That's a very good point. Let's stop blaming the customer who pays to go diving. Dive Ops have a responsibility. They took money.

Most of the stuff I read online about Gordon Rocks makes it clear that this is a site ONLY for advanced divers. I didn't learn how new they were till we were almost at the site, and we started chatting.

This is what most scares me about your story.

What if one of the Newbies had been wearing your malfunctioning BCD? You handled yourself very well. Someone with less experience might have handled things less well.


As for Sub-Aqua, I'd love to hear from them too.


Me too. Expect defensiveness and excuses. Maybe they'll blame the customers.

I'm going to tell the booking agent tomorrow that this thread is here. I didn't name her because I have no complaint with her at all...in fact, she behaved admirably...so I want to leave it to her whether or not she wants to identify herself.

Your agent deserves some praise for having the integrity to give you a refund.

A few recent threads in the accidents forum shows that ditching weights isn't something that everyone remembers when they should.

I have commented on that issue in a number of Threads. As an Instructor, I am getting more and more concerned about it.

Under stress (panic), people can lose fine motor skills.

I am having my students spend more time on practicing weight-ditching. It annoys them. Some students say, "We did this already; I know how to do it."

I respond, "Do it again, please."

Thank you again, Leeann, for your post.

[AfterDark]

I don't blame you or judge you THE Galapagos Islands? I'd dive with bag of cement blocks tied around my waist, a goat stomach full of air and a pair goggles if I had too.:D
Glad your OK.

[Leejnd]

Just a quick clarification on the refund issue. I've had a few people ask me how much I got back, and why I didn't ask for the whole amount back. What I asked for, and received from the booking agent within minutes of asking, was the cost of my husband's second day - the one he didn't go on - which was $170. I did not ask for more, and do not feel I should have. Hey, I did all four of MY dives! Yes, I got bum gear, and a good scare to boot, but I did the dives.

Some of my friends feel I should have asked for at least a partial refund for my dives as well, due to the defective equipment - I certainly didn't get what I paid for! And that's true, I didn't. Perhaps there's some justification for asking for more. But I'm not going to. Main reason? Because I wanted to post my account in here, and call out the dive op for their bad gear and sloppy practices. If I was to ask for more of a refund, that would call into question the integrity of my story. This dive op is putting divers at risk, and I would rather put out a warning to the dive community than get back a little money.

[AfterDark]

Just a quick clarification on the refund issue. I've had a few people ask me how much I got back, and why I didn't ask for the whole amount back. What I asked for, and received from the booking agent within minutes of asking, was the cost of my husband's second day - the one he didn't go on - which was $170. I did not ask for more, and do not feel I should have. Hey, I did all four of MY dives! Yes, I got bum gear, and a good scare to boot, but I did the dives.

Some of my friends feel I should have asked for at least a partial refund for my dives as well, due to the defective equipment - I certainly didn't get what I paid for! And that's true, I didn't. Perhaps there's some justification for asking for more. But I'm not going to. Main reason? Because I wanted to post my account in here, and call out the dive op for their bad gear and sloppy practices. If I was to ask for more of a refund, that would call into question the integrity of my story. This dive op is putting divers at risk, and I would rather put out a warning to the dive community than get back a little money.

This is called doing the Lords work. Hope people take heed.

[Valhalla]

"1. My method of checking the functionality of my BCD was pretty unscientific: once I was geared up, I pumped in some air. It seemed to hold it. Then I pressed the button to vent it. It seemed to come out. Simple as that. Clearly not a good ENOUGH test...the damn thing didn't work, did it?"

Well I learn something everyday from my particitaion on SB. My BCD pre-dive inspection consisted of excatly your rountine with fortunately perfect results since being certified since 1983. I just read my Halcyon BCD owner's manual that indicates one is supposed to connect the LP quick connection hose then depress and release the inflator button to ensure that the airflow is unobstructed, and that the airflow stops completely when the button is released. Then manually operate the overpressure (OP) valve by pulling on the attached string to test spring and valve integreity. Fully inflate the bouyancy wing until the OP valve opens. Examine the operation of the OP valve by reapeatedly inflating the wing to ensure that the valve opens to relieve excess pressure, yet closes immediately afterward to allow the bladder to remain taunt and fully inflated. Listen closely for any leakage with the wing fully inflated but not connected to a low pressure air source...

These are the same folks who accomplish world record cave dives 19,000 linear feet into systems in 300ft of depth so their pre-dive check may be more extensive than most. Keeping my dive buddies from talking my ear off during this process would be my greatest challenge. I normally do not post such long-winded messages but I took today off from the office. :banana:

[Leejnd]

"1. My method of checking the functionality of my BCD was pretty unscientific: once I was geared up, I pumped in some air. It seemed to hold it. Then I pressed the button to vent it. It seemed to come out. Simple as that. Clearly not a good ENOUGH test...the damn thing didn't work, did it?"

Well I learn something everyday from my particitaion on SB. My BCD pre-dive inspection consisted of excatly your rountine with fortunately perfect results since being certified since 1983. I just read my Halcyon BCD owner's manual that indicates one is supposed to connect the LP quick connection hose then depress and release the inflator button to ensure that the airflow is unobstructed, and that the airflow stops completely when the button is released. Then manually operate the overpressure (OP) valve by pulling on the attached string to test spring and valve integreity. Fully inflate the bouyancy wing until the OP valve opens. Examine the operation of the OP valve by reapeatedly inflating the wing to ensure that the valve opens to relieve excess pressure, yet closes immediately afterward to allow the bladder to remain taunt and fully inflated. Listen closely for any leakage with the wing fully inflated but not connected to a low pressure air source...

These are the same folks who accomplish world record cave dives 19,000 linear feet into systems in 300ft of depth so their pre-dive check may be more extensive than most. Keeping my dive buddies from talking my ear off during this process would be my greatest challenge. I normally do not post such long-winded messages but I took today off from the office. :banana:

Valhalla, their description of how to do a BCD pre-dive inspection more or less amounts to what I did...which was, pump air in it and see if it holds. Although they recommend doing it with a bit more rigor...and using more air than I did. That's all fine and good when you are not on a boat, testing with the tank that you are about to dive to 95 ft with. In the real world, we don't always have the option of blowing out a quarter of your tank for testing purposes. But in this case, I sure wish I had!

And you think your post was long winded??? Yeesh...let's not go there...:hehheh:

[AfterDark]

Valhalla, their description of how to do a BCD pre-dive inspection more or less amounts to what I did...which was, pump air in it and see if it holds. Although they recommend doing it with a bit more rigor...and using more air than I did. That's all fine and good when you are not on a boat, testing with the tank that you are about to dive to 95 ft with. In the real world, we don't always have the option of blowing out a quarter of your tank for testing purposes. But in this case, I sure wish I had!

And you think your post was long winded??? Yeesh...let's not go there...:hehheh:

After your sure the inflator works you can blow it up orally as much as you want then squezze it HARD!

[Leejnd]

After your sure the inflator works you can blow it up orally as much as you want then squezze it HARD!

True...and good point. In the end, I should include NOT testing my BCD thoroughly enough as one of my mistakes.

[Valhalla]

Valhalla, their description of how to do a BCD pre-dive inspection more or less amounts to what I did...which was, pump air in it and see if it holds. Although they recommend doing it with a bit more rigor...and using more air than I did. That's all fine and good when you are not on a boat, testing with the tank that you are about to dive to 95 ft with. In the real world, we don't always have the option of blowing out a quarter of your tank for testing purposes. But in this case, I sure wish I had!

And you think your post was long winded??? Yeesh...let's not go there...:hehheh:

I hear you. I have always filled my BCD's orally top-side to save gas. As I say they are fanantical which is fine and they are also starting out with 4000psi in their LP cylinders before dives. A quick blast or two of the power inflator to check on it's functionality is all that I would do with cylinder gas then orally inflate for the remaining checks...Good practice for surface power inflation problems. Used to use LP inflator hose for underwater SMB inflation. What a CF operation that can be with line entanglement issues galore. Could not reconnect LP hose one time as well and had to orally inflate at surface last year for first time...

[robint]

I am glad everything turned out okay and glad you posted it here. Thanks.

[TSandM]

I routinely fill my wing until the OPV releases (because I'm paranoid, and like to float). I have never noticed ANY drop in tank pressure from doing this. It's a tiny, tiny fraction of the gas in the tank, even in an AL80.

[*dave*]

Filling my wing to the point that the OPV kicks in has always been part of my pre-dive check. I've heard of several incidents where the OPV was faulty and resulted in a rupture of the bladder. Definitely something to discover and resolve prior to diving as opposed to finding out at the end of the dive as you are looking for max buoyancy on the surface.

I routinely fill my wing until the OPV releases (because I'm paranoid, and like to float). I have never noticed ANY drop in tank pressure from doing this. It's a tiny, tiny fraction of the gas in the tank, even in an AL80.

[snepdiver]

Thanks for sharing your story with us. It was written in such a way I could not stop reading. That is rare for me after 5 or 6 sentences. Unless its a book.

I routinely fill my wing until the OPV releases (because I'm paranoid, and like to float). I have never noticed ANY drop in tank pressure from doing this. It's a tiny, tiny fraction of the gas in the tank, even in an AL80.I do that also. I use the inflator and oral to test it. Well, Mine is not a wing, But you get the point.

[Valhalla]

Thanks for sharing your story with us. It was written in such a way I could not stop reading. That is rare for me after 5 or 6 sentences. Unless its a book.

I do that also. I use the inflator and oral to test it. Well, Mine is not a wing, But you get the point.

Side mounts don't have wings? I know nothing of them...:dontknow:

[snepdiver]

Side mounts don't have wings? I know nothing of them...:dontknow:Who said anything about side mounts?

[Valhalla]

Who said anything about side mounts?

Thought you dived that way until I realized it was Kevin C. Sorry Cheif!

[Bubbletrubble]

When I read the OP's account about how the BCD "popped," I immediately thought of one possible cause. On both dives with the BCD in question, she found out that it didn't hold air at the end of the dive upon surfacing. In her pre-dive check, she inflated and deflated, but she probably didn't inflate the BCD fully. (Correct me if I'm wrong here.) As others have pointed out, what she experienced is consistent with a leak caused by full inflation of the BCD...and the likely part involved is a malfunctioning over-pressure valve (OPV). As its name implies, the OPV is designed to vent the bladder when a certain pressure inside is achieved. Essentially, the OPV protects the bladder from exploding. Since you heard the "pop" while at the surface, I'd guess that the malfunctioning OPV was located high on the BCD (part above water while you are vertical). In my experience, the two most likely locations would be the point of attachment of the corrugated hose on the back upper left (elbow with integrated OPV) OR a shoulder dump valve with OPV on the back upper right of the BCD. There is usually a "butt" dump valve/OPV positioned lower on the BCD beneath the water, but it wouldn't sound like a "pop" when activated...probably more like a gurgling/barking sound. Sorry, that's the best way I can describe it.

Rental BCDs are notorious for being used and abused. Here's a checklist that I use when I'm renting a BCD:

Does the BCD fit me? This is kind of an obvious first step. This includes adjustment of the cummerband and cinching down all the adjustment straps.
Does the BCD have weight-integration? If so, how secure are all of the ditchable weight pockets? How secure are the non-ditchable trim weight pockets? I fill up both ditchable pockets with my estimated amount of lead and ensure that the pockets slide in, lock, and don't slide out unexpectedly. It goes without saying that you should learn how to operate the quick-ditch mechanism, which may vary from velcro to a positive audible click (plastic on plastic) to a ripcord design. BTW, your buddy should know how to operate the quick-ditch mechanism, too.
Are there any obvious tears that might compromise BCD integrity? I look over the entire inside and outside of the BCD. I inspect the corrugated hose in particular since this piece can crack over time and the corrugations can easily hide an imperfection. This is just a visual check and should be done while not wearing the BCD. In fact, the rest of the check should be done without you wearing the BCD at all.
Is the corrugated hose attached securely to the BCD? I tug on the elbow attachment. Sometimes these elbows get cracked. Sometimes they get unscrewed.
Do the pockets work? I look for any tears in the pockets. I operate the zippers. I feel around inside each pocket for any hidden holes. I don't want to lose something of value during the dive.
Are all of the dump valves screwed in/tightened down properly? I just check for a snug fit. This step is important since it also helps me identify all of my options for dumping air.
Does the BCD hold the tank securely? I mount a tank with the camband(s) and then grab a firm hold of the tank positioning/carry strap (if one exists) and lift up the BCD + attached tank. I notice whether the tank slides or shifts position. I also check the integrity of the cambands. Plastic camband buckles are common. They can and will break.
Does the oral inflation mechanism work? I take a look at the mouthpiece to see if it has any cracks. I blow several breaths into the mouthpiece until the wing is fully inflated. I squeeze the sides of it with a reasonable amount of force, but not enough to activate any OPVs.
Does the exhaust button on the power inflater assembly work? I depress this to see if it dumps air. When I let go of the button, it should stop dumping.
Does every dump valve work? Once again, I pull on each dump cord one after the other. Air dumping should start/stop appropriately.
Can air be dumped by pulling down on the whole power inflater/corrugated hose assembly (without pushing any buttons)? You have to ask the guys at the rental shop if this is the case. This feature is a pretty common one on a lot of conventional jacket BCDs; it requires connection of a metal cable that runs inside the corrugated hose. Some rental departments opt to not install the metal cable, and some do. If it is installed, then I'll pull gently down on the power inflater assembly to see if it works as it should. As a side note, I generally avoid using this dump valve while I'm in the water. I once had a dive buddy who separated the entire corrugate hose from the BCD by yanking on it.
Did all of the dump valves reset? Sometimes the springs wear out or the seating mechanism becomes faulty. I re-inflate the BCD orally and then give the BCD another good squeeze. I should feel a good amount of resistance, and the air should be held nicely inside the bladder.
Does the power inflater work? I mount my assigned rental reg setup to the tank valve, and then connect the inflator hose to the power inflater of the BCD. To save tank air, I'll first inflate the BCD most of the way orally. I then activate the power inflator button for a short burst just shy of full inflation. Air should flow when the button is depressed and should stop when it is released. Whenever the inflator hose is attached to the BCD and the reg system is pressurized, I listen for any hissing which would indicate the presence of a leak.
Does the OPV work? I orally inflate the bladder until it's full. And then I activate the power inflater button until one of the OPVs cracks open. Be forewarned: when operated above water, OPV activation can be quite loud. The OPV should stay open only for as long as I hold down the power inflater button. Yes, I've gotten some funny/annoyed looks from the guys in the rental shop, but frankly I could care less.
Does the BCD hold air for a period of several minutes? Although the BCD should be able to maintain it's fully inflated state indefinitely, it's not practical to make this check for more than a few minutes. I leave the BCD fully inflated with inflator hose connected while I check other rental gear (reg, mask, fins, wetsuit, etc.). A malfunctioning power inflater button/inflator hose will usually reveal itself at this time. If there's a leak, you'll hear a hiss. If the inflater is stuck open, then you'll hear the OPV activate. It should be pretty obvious.
For a weight-integrated BCD, can the fully loaded weight pockets be loaded while the BCD is fully inflated? More importantly, can they be ditched easily while the BCD is fully inflated?
Does the inflator hose disconnect easily from the power inflater assembly? If the power inflater gets stuck open, then I would have to make this disconnection during a dive. Some older inflator hoses have a sticky quick-disconnect (especially those with visible corrosion). Better to find out about this during the pre-dive check than on a rocking boat...or under water.

Despite the number of items inspected, it's worth mentioning that the checklist only takes a few minutes to complete and requires very little tank air.

After I've gone through my checklist, I'll break the gear down and be sure to deflate the BCD fully. I do this to prevent the BCD from getting in the way (while it is tranported from rental shop to dive boat) and also to decrease the possibility of something sharp piercing the bladder.

After doing these checks on the rental BCD, I'll attach a ziptie onto one of the D-rings. This is my way of marking my BCD.

Bear in mind that this checklist was designed to help assess what is and what is not working on the BCD. Certain defects are allowable, and others are not. For instance, a ripped pocket doesn't affect buoyancy compensation, whereas a faulty OPV does. I'm willing to let faulty weight-integrated pockets slide if I can wear a weight belt instead. YMMV.

I hope that someone out there finds this list helpful. Have fun and dive safe...

[Valhalla]

Bubble Trouble, thoughtful post! With regard to traveling with your regulator and BCD rigs. First, Milflex hoses are considerably lighter than conventional hoses and much more flexiable. Why would a diver traveling not carry-on the reg rig and place the BCD in checked luggage. Even if you went over the airlines weight allowance you probally end up fairly even finacially in that you no longer have to rent. Personally, I can handle rented reg's much more than a rented BCD. A diffirent style BCD than I am used to throws me off my game big time. Scott

[Leejnd]

To those of you who are still interested in this incident, I heard from the Booking Agent today and got some interesting information. It seems that Sub-Aqua OUTSOURCED us on that first day in Academy Bay - that wasn't even Sub-Aqua's boat, or their DMs! And, to make matters worse, one of the DMs they subbed us out to is someone with whom she had a VERY bad dive experience some years ago...and with whom she says she NEVER would have sent one of her clients. All this, without running it by her. She is furious.

Apparently, there was some problem with Sub-Aqua's boat on Friday - it wasn't ready to go out that day, or it was with other divers, or some such thing. In any event, the dive op they outsourced us to is called Sharks Friends, which is NOT even one of the licensed LDSs in Galapagos. Apparently from what I can gather, since they don't have their own license, they only operate as a sub-contractor to Sub-Aqua or one of the licensed dive boats in the area.

None of this was authorized or approved by my booking agent. And we certainly weren't expecting to be pawned off on an unlicensed dive op. As for the DM they sent us with, according to her, it sounds like he's known to be, shall we say, not the most professional or safety-concious. In fact, she claims that it was his poor attitude and lack of concern when leading her in a dive that, years ago, caused her to have ear problems that still affect her today. So when she realized that was who they'd sent us to...well, she's on her way to the Galapagos right now, and once she gets there, I would love to be a fly on the wall in the dive shops along main street in Puerto Ayora.

The second day, it appears it was in fact Sub-Aqua - their boat, their DMs. And there was definitely a marked difference between the two operators...as I noted in my original post, the boat was better and more comfortable, the DMs were more professional, and overall they were a better operation. However, that doesn't take away the fact that they gave me that malfunctioning BCD, AND took inexperienced divers to an advanced site. But it does explain some things. I suspect that there was a lack of communication between Sharks Friends and Sub-Aqua about what happened to me that first day, and with our language barrier, they may not have understood that the BCD they were giving me the second day was broken. Who knows...I'm just speculating...but clearly the whole thing was pretty much a cluster-f ***.

Anyway, I wanted to touch on the whole testing-the-BCD thing. If there is one area in which I expected I would get the classic Scubaboard Flogging, it was that one. Yes, I realize now I should have done a better job of testing it. I generally don't like to rent gear, and don't have a lot of experience with it...we prefer our own, which we keep serviced, and check it thoroughly on a regular basis. The few times I've rented gear in the past, while it may have looked old, it appeared to be well-maintained and was treated carefully by the dive op. I always did basic checks for essential operation, but expected that the owners of the gear would keep it serviced and assure it was in good working order before they would let one of their paying customers dive in it, so I didn't do a full-on by-the-book manufacturer-recommended scientific testing process.

Do I regret that now? Yeah, uh huh. And if I ever do rent gear again, I will make sure I print out Bubbletrouble's list (and any other lists of gear testing procedures I can find) and spend the entire ride out to the dive site, however long it may be, checking for every possible point of failure in all of the gear I am renting.

Another factor to consider is that, unlike the way our dive boats out here in SoCal operate, these boats functioned like typical tourist-destination boats: the DMs took care of everything. This is not what I'm accustomed to at home, although I have experienced this during vacation travel, at destination dive locations such as Belize and Bali. On our local boats, divers are expected to be self-sufficient - you bring your own stuff, you put your own gear together, you bring your own buddy, you make your own dive plan, and you dive on your own. The DMs usually don't even get IN the water, unless there's an emergency. This is in contrast to destination/resort dive boats, where the DMs do it all - they put the gear together, they lead the dive, and you are expected to do what they tell you. So maybe what I'm really guilty of is expecting them to be competent at what they do. Mea culpa.

Lesson: don't let the fact that they do everything stop you from doing all of your own gear testing anyway.

[D_B]

Wow .. It's hearting to hear that she's going out there herself to see what's going on

BC checks ... I was taught to fully inflate the BC till the overpressure valve releases, then check for wing and valve integrity .. but I notice that I have been lax at doing so since then , my gear, so I know it's condition , but that's no excuse ... I will be more observant for any other acts of complacency creeping in on me

[monkeyfish69]

UGH using rental equipment, have had so many problems in past, but luckily nothing as a complete bcd burst, drop the weights it's their crap that got you into the incident! I usually assemble the kit before leaving harbour, inflating until it pops and leaving reg turned off until time to don, then if any leaks on reg side picked up on an empty spg prior to bwraf. Great that your buddy is risk adverse, usually the other way like me and my wife! Crazy that we always want to get our moneys worth despite all the signs telling us to forget the dive. Glad you came through and reminded us all why we pay excess baggage to bring our own kit. Sometimes you can bring it disguised in a golf bag and avoid paying excess baggage. Why can golfers get away free and not divers?

[drdaddy]

I don't blame you or judge you THE Galapagos Islands? I'd dive with bag of cement blocks tied around my waist, a goat stomach full of air and a pair goggles if I had too.:D
Glad your OK.

I don't blame or judge you either. It was that "one more crab" and "one more dive" thing that brought me to a near fatal dive incident.

I hope and pray I have learned and I hope you have learned - listen to your gut!!! Don't do it!!!

I am glad you are "here" reporting to us and letting us all share your experience. Especially since many of us want to dive the Galapagos Islands (and many other exotic and wonderful places).

Thank you.

[InTheDrink]

I've had a faulty rental BCD and regs on an advanced dive in the Maldives a few years back. I now have my own and I would not travel without either anymore. Underpants be damned. Well done for making it back - but you must take some responsibility for proceeding with what you knew were potentially unsafe dives. I'd have likely done the same myself but that doesn't change the fact that you knowingly took the chance.

J

[Leejnd]

I've had a faulty rental BCD and regs on an advanced dive in the Maldives a few years back. I now have my own and I would not travel without either anymore. Underpants be damned. Well done for making it back - but you must take some responsibility for proceeding with what you knew were potentially unsafe dives. I'd have likely done the same myself but that doesn't change the fact that you knowingly took the chance.

J

I appreciate your response, and respect your decision to pack your BCD instead of undergarments when you travel. Me, I like my underwear...so for future dive travel, I think I might just take the suggestion above and stuff my gear in a golf bag.

But I have to say I'm a little perplexed by your comment that I "must take some responsibility" for proceeding with the dives.

Is there anything in any of my posts that gives you the impression that I HAVEN'T taken responsibility? Is there some ambiguity in the numerous statements I've made in this thread indicating that I am well aware it was a mistake to proceed? Do the following statements of mine somehow lack conviction in conveying my sense of responsibility for my decisions?

I made the difficult decision to go ahead with it, which I realize now was a mistake...one that could have been disastrous

Mistake #3: Trust your gut. If the dive op seems unsafe, DON’T GO WITH THEM! What’s more important, your money or your life?

knowing how bad this dive op is overall, I do realize it was probably a foolhardy thing to do. I'm not proud of this

Personally, I think I've done a perfectly adequate job in assuming responsibility for my role in this debacle. What else would you have me do? Should I take out an ad? At this point, it seems to me that any further drubbings directed at me would fall into the category of yer classic unnecessary Scubaboard evisceration...which really doesn't help anyone, least of all someone who has already publicly, openly and quite long-windedly taken responsibility for her mistakes. But thanks anyway.

[Valhalla]

Checking back to the thread I quickly reread the problem dive. A better course of action may have been to submerge face down in the water to check for other divers then jettison the weight belt. If that didn't make things better jettison the whole rig. It's a rental! :)

[Leejnd]

Checking back to the thread I quickly reread the problem dive. A better course of action may have been to submerge face down in the water to check for other divers then jettison the weight belt. If that didn't make things better jettison the whole rig. It's a rental! :)

LOL! This is so funny to me right now because I just overheard my husband on the phone telling someone my story, and when he got to the part about how I was reluctant to ditch my weights because I knew divers were below me, he said, "Now if it'd been me I wouldn't have given it a second thought. Them or me? I pick me!" ;)

As it actually transpired, it all happened pretty quickly (as these things usually do) and I had the DM's octo in my mouth before I got to the point where I had to seriously consider ditching. There WERE divers very close beneath me, but you can bet if I hadn't had that octo in my mouth in the next 10 seconds, that weight belt would now be resting at the bottom of the caldera. :cool2:

[Valhalla]

LOL! This is so funny to me right now because I just overheard my husband on the phone telling someone my story, and when he got to the part about how I was reluctant to ditch my weights because I knew divers were below me, he said, "Now if it'd been me I wouldn't have given it a second thought. Them or me? I pick me!" ;)

As it actually transpired, it all happened pretty quickly (as these things usually do) and I had the DM's octo in my mouth before I got to the point where I had to seriously consider ditching. There WERE divers very close beneath me, but you can bet if I hadn't had that octo in my mouth in the next 10 seconds, that weight belt would now be resting at the bottom of the caldera. :cool2:

Well, before I finished reading your post for the first time I thought for the first time if a dropped weights has ever stuck a diver with consequences. I will start a thread today in order to ask that question of our brethern. Before that question a few days ago I would never have thought to look before dropping which would decrease the opportunity of hitting someone but certainly not rule it out for various reasons. Final conclusion though is to let'er drop as you said. GUE is the only training agency that seems to instruct it's students to rotate on their horizonal axis 180 degrees in order to look above for other divers before deploying SMB's...

[AfterDark]

I don't know how practical it would be for international trips but, it might be worth looking into what it would cost to ship your gear to your destination before you leave.

[Valhalla]

I don't know how practical it would be for international trips but, it might be worth looking into what it would cost to ship your gear to your destination before you leave.

I mentioned earlier in the thread but what about the idea of carry-on reg and computer then throwing the BCD in checked baggage? My BCD with AL plate wieghs 4 pounds tops...

[Leejnd]

Well, before I finished reading your post for the first time I thought for the first time if a dropped weights has ever stuck a diver with consequences. I will start a thread today in order to ask that question of our brethern. Before that question a few days ago I would never have thought to look before dropping which would decrease the opportunity of hitting someone but certainly not rule it out for various reasons. Final conclusion though is to let'er drop as you said. GUE is the only training agency that seems to instruct it's students to rotate on their horizonal axis 180 degrees in order to look above for other divers before deploying SMB's...

Y'know, strangely enough, the only reason I even thought about the divers beneath me is because of some recent threads in the Accidents forum! There were several comments about a dive fatality in which the recovered diver still had on his weight belt. (I believe it was the San Diego diver, who appears to have gotten caught in kelp.) There were discussions about why he didn't ditch his weights, and how oftentimes recovered divers still have on their weights, and why don't they ditch them? And several people mentioned that there are hazards to ditching weights when divers may be below them. This was actually the first time I'd heard that - I don't recall that coming up in my OW or AOW classes - but it stuck in my head enough so that it flashed across my mind before I reached for that belt. The other team of divers really were right beneath me - we all did our blue-water safety stops together, and I would have felt horrible if I KILLED somebody by dropping lead on their heads! And then I had air and was getting help to remain afloat, so it became a non-issue.

I mentioned earlier in the thread but what about the idea of carry-on reg and computer then throwing the BCD in checked baggage? My BCD with AL plate wieghs 4 pounds tops...

That's what I've usually done. I've never actually checked my reg & computer - I carry them in their nice padded carrying case. The problem for this trip was that it was a 3-week tour to Machu Picchu and the Galapagos with multiple stops (Lima, Cusco, Aqua Caliente, Quito, Galapagos), which included train trips and small-plane rides and four days on a small ship with very limited luggage allowances. Plus, there were two climates I had to pack for - up at 12,000 ft in the Andes is COLD, and then we had our week at the equator, which was HOT! AND we wanted to leave at least SOME room for souvenirs! All in all it was a very challenging trip to pack for, and as it was I had a large and heavy carry-on (in addition to my at-the-limit checked luggage). The rental gear was included in the quoted price of the dives - we didn't save any money by bringing our own - so we elected to take the chance and rent.

But after this experience, I will be bringing my own stuff wherever I go.

Shipping could be an option, if it's not somewhere remote and off-the-beaten-path, like Galapagos! I'd hate to ship it out and have it not arrive in time. And then what...ship it back? How long would all that take? I'd rather keep my gear with me, and just pay the luggage overage fee, if necessary.

In any case, this was an odd confluence of situations that I hope to not encounter again. Frankly I'm thinking of staying home for a while!

[Valhalla]

Y'know, strangely enough, the only reason I even thought about the divers beneath me is because of some recent threads in the Accidents forum! There were several comments about a dive fatality in which the recovered diver still had on his weight belt. (I believe it was the San Diego diver, who appears to have gotten caught in kelp.) There were discussions about why he didn't ditch his weights, and how oftentimes recovered divers still have on their weights, and why don't they ditch them? And several people mentioned that there are hazards to ditching weights when divers may be below them. This was actually the first time I'd heard that - I don't recall that coming up in my OW or AOW classes - but it stuck in my head enough so that it flashed across my mind before I reached for that belt. The other team of divers really were right beneath me - we all did our blue-water safety stops together, and I would have felt horrible if I KILLED somebody by dropping lead on their heads! And then I had air and was getting help to remain afloat, so it became a non-issue.



That's what I've usually done. I've never actually checked my reg & computer - I carry them in their nice padded carrying case. The problem for this trip was that it was a 3-week tour to Machu Picchu and the Galapagos with multiple stops (Lima, Cusco, Aqua Caliente, Quito, Galapagos), which included train trips and small-plane rides and four days on a small ship with very limited luggage allowances. Plus, there were two climates I had to pack for - up at 12,000 ft in the Andes is COLD, and then we had our week at the equator, which was HOT! AND we wanted to leave at least SOME room for souvenirs! All in all it was a very challenging trip to pack for, and as it was I had a large and heavy carry-on (in addition to my at-the-limit checked luggage). The rental gear was included in the quoted price of the dives - we didn't save any money by bringing our own - so we elected to take the chance and rent.

But after this experience, I will be bringing my own stuff wherever I go.

Shipping could be an option, if it's not somewhere remote and off-the-beaten-path, like Galapagos! I'd hate to ship it out and have it not arrive in time. And then what...ship it back? How long would all that take? I'd rather keep my gear with me, and just pay the luggage overage fee, if necessary.

In any case, this was an odd confluence of situations that I hope to not encounter again. Frankly I'm thinking of staying home for a while!


Reminds me of an old George Carlin monologue where he traveled from CA to Hawaii then island hopped and discussed the pitfalls of supply lines being longer and longer and harder to maintain. :D That's my digression of the day. :)

[TSandM]

My first "exotic" dive trip was to Australia, where we spent 5 days in Sydney, toured the wine country, and then went up to Byron Bay to dive. It was, for sure, a challenge to pack everything and have enough for all the activities.

Maybe (and I have no intention of being critical) you just tried to do too much in a single trip? If diving is in the offing, I take all my gear -- I then have to calculate how much else I can do on a trip with the remaining luggage allowance. Our recent trip to Egypt was a case in point. Diving was the focus, so we had three bags full of dive gear and one to split between the two of us for clothes. Needless to say, my wardrobe was limited, and composed largely of things I could hand wash and hang out. And one time during the trip, we swallowed the outrageous fees and had laundry done.

[jridg]

Good read - and good warning. I can't say what I would have done in your situation - although being an 'arm-chair' diver, I would like to think I would have never got on the first boat. I have seen some old gear, but a good op will keep old gear in good repair. Sure, it might be faded, but if it properly maintained, it should still be OK.

I am very loathe to rent gear when I travel. If I do, I look it over very thoroughly. This is the case in point. Sounds like you have learned a lot from this trip - and you still got to do some dives in a must dive location - so, it's kind of a win for you - but then again, what if ............

Glad you're OK and that you learned from the experience.

[Leejnd]

Maybe (and I have no intention of being critical) you just tried to do too much in a single trip?

Thanks for not being critical. But I just gotta ask you...if you were going to be on a trip that included the Galapagos Islands - arguably one of the top dive destinations on the planet - and you knew you had two free days in which you COULD get in a few dives -- wouldn't you? Can you imagine the flak I'd take from all my dive friends if I went to the freaking Galapagos Islands and didn't dive?

Also, please remember that this was a packaged, guided group tour. Up until the last two days, we were led by the noses everywhere we went. All activities planned, all meals and travel and accommodations and tours included. That is NOT the way I normally travel - I tend to be a very independent traveler, and generally like to make all my own arrangements and be in control of my own destiny. This is the first one of these packaged tours I've ever gone on. But we were invited to participate with some friends of ours, and it was going to places we wanted to see, so we went along. Frankly I was glad to get away from all the scheduled activities on those last two days and do something on our OWN.

Hindsight being 20/20 and all that, yeah maybe we should have brought our gear, or not even tried to squeeze in the diving...and of course checked the gear better, and bailed on the second day, etc etc etc. But I'm sorry, I just don't know a single person who is as passionate about diving as I am who could find themselves in the Galapagos and not try to squeeze in some diving, somehow.

I appreciate everyone's efforts to find the flaw in my behavior that led to this. But I think that questioning whether I should even have tried to go diving to begin with is going a little overboard. I have many talents, but prognostication is not among them.

If diving is in the offing, I take all my gear -- I then have to calculate how much else I can do on a trip with the remaining luggage allowance. Our recent trip to Egypt was a case in point. Diving was the focus, so we had three bags full of dive gear and one to split between the two of us for clothes. Needless to say, my wardrobe was limited, and composed largely of things I could hand wash and hang out. And one time during the trip, we swallowed the outrageous fees and had laundry done.

That's the thing - diving wasn't the focus of this trip. It was tacked on at the end. Further, with all the travel, transfers, and destination-hopping - we stayed at no fewer than six different hotels, as well as a small-ship for 4 days - I'm not so sure it would have been a good idea to try to bring our gear anyway. So is the lesson that, if diving isn't the focus of your trip, don't go diving? That's rather limiting. Or perhaps the lesson is just to NEVER EVER EVER rent equipment. Now that one I'll buy! :D

[Bubbletrubble]

Or perhaps the lesson is just to NEVER EVER EVER rent equipment. Now that one I'll buy! :D
I didn't draw that conclusion from your story, but if it prevents you from ever placing yourself in a dangerous situation like that again...then I don't think it's a bad lesson. Using rental stuff is like blindly selecting a piece of chocolate from one of those assorted boxes. You never know what you're going to get. (Apologies to the screenwriters of Forrest Gump.)

Heck, we all love to dive. I don't think any of us blame you for doing a couple of dives in the Galapagos. You see stuff there that you can't see anywhere else! :D

Thanks for sharing your story and allowing us to learn from your experience.

[Valhalla]

My first "exotic" dive trip was to Australia, where we spent 5 days in Sydney, toured the wine country, and then went up to Byron Bay to dive. It was, for sure, a challenge to pack everything and have enough for all the activities.

Maybe (and I have no intention of being critical) you just tried to do too much in a single trip? If diving is in the offing, I take all my gear -- I then have to calculate how much else I can do on a trip with the remaining luggage allowance. Our recent trip to Egypt was a case in point. Diving was the focus, so we had three bags full of dive gear and one to split between the two of us for clothes. Needless to say, my wardrobe was limited, and composed largely of things I could hand wash and hang out. And one time during the trip, we swallowed the outrageous fees and had laundry done.

TSandM, your logic and wisdom are infalliable. Yeah, especially after reading this thread I cannot envision a senario where I would not dive without my own equipment sans fins, weights, etc. Either plan the trip with one less day or days or postpone until the added expense can be justified. :)

[Leejnd]

TSandM, your logic and wisdom is infalliable. Yeah, especially after reading this thread I cannot envision a senario where I would not dive without my own equipment sans fins, weights, etc. Either plan the trip with one less day or days or postpone until the added expense can be justified. :)

I'm not so sure I agree. Not saying I disagree that TSandM is wise - I always learn something from her posts! I'm just saying that I'm not so sure that renting dive gear should be completely ruled out as an option for any diver who wants to stay alive. Should we really be eliminating that entire market segment of the dive industry? What about newer divers who haven't yet bought their own gear? Do we really need to state unequivocably that divers should NEVER RENT GEAR? That's a pretty strong statement.

I'm sure there are many dive ops around the world who would also disagree.

Yes, I had a bad experience with rental gear. But I think we've established pretty well that there are things I could have done to better check the gear I was issued. (And I don't think we need to poke anymore holes in me for that...I've already acknowledged it ad infinitum.)

If anything, this should be a lesson to both divers AND dive ops: for divers, if you do rent, CHECK YOUR GEAR thoroughly...certainly more thoroughly than I did. And for dive ops, for petes sake, don't issue crappy gear! Do a better job of maintaining your rental gear, check it thoroughly before you issue it to a customer, and please remember that your customer is putting his/her life in your hands...please take that seriously.

Given what happened to me, I'm pretty much done with renting gear for myself...I think I will be bringing my own from now on. But I think it would be going overboard to say that NOBODY should EVER rent gear ANYWHERE.

[Valhalla]

I'm not so sure I agree. Not saying I disagree that TSandM is wise - I always learn something from her posts! I'm just saying that I'm not so sure that renting dive gear should be completely ruled out as an option for any diver who wants to stay alive. Should we really be eliminating that entire market segment of the dive industry? What about newer divers who haven't yet bought their own gear? Do we really need to state unequivocably that divers should NEVER RENT GEAR? That's a pretty strong statement.

I'm sure there are many dive ops around the world who would also disagree.

Yes, I had a bad experience with rental gear. But I think we've established pretty well that there are things I could have done to better check the gear I was issued. (And I don't think we need to poke anymore holes in me for that...I've already acknowledged it ad infinitum.)

If anything, this should be a lesson to both divers AND dive ops: for divers, if you do rent, CHECK YOUR GEAR thoroughly...certainly more thoroughly than I did. And for dive ops, for petes sake, don't issue crappy gear! Do a better job of maintaining your rental gear, check it thoroughly before you issue it to a customer, and please remember that your customer is putting his/her life in your hands...please take that seriously.

Given what happened to me, I'm pretty much done with renting gear for myself...I think I will be bringing my own from now on. But I think it would be going overboard to say that NOBODY should EVER rent gear ANYWHERE.

I cannot speak for TSandM but the point made is that traveling with own gear is doable. Like anything else it is a function of $$$. I tried to word my last post such to not invoke your ire but I do not have your gifts. The highly benefical aspect of SB is to play out all senarios and learn from other's experiences to avoid all manner of mishaps and injury. Thanks to you sharing your experiences my policy on equipment rental is now iron clad...;)

[TSandM]

Well, I think if I were going to the Galapagos, myself, it would be a dive-centered trip :)

I don't think it is horrible to rent gear, although I won't do it, because I love my equipment and the way it fits and works for me, and if I'm going to spend megabucks doing an irreplaceable dive, I want to do it in an optimal fashion.

But if I were going to contemplate renting gear, I would at the very least do a bunch of research about the dive operation. There's lot of information on line (including here on SB!) to get a sense for whether anyone has ever dived with the folks, and what their experience is. And I would suspect that an operator in a very remote location, if their prices weren't steep, might well have to cut some corners.

Lee, I don't know what I would have done in your situation. You were presented with an opportunity, and it sounds as though you knew about it beforehand, but maybe not so much. You had a dive op about whom you knew nothing, gear about which you knew nothing on the first day and bad things on the second, and a site you knew would be advanced and challenging. We all make risk/value assessments in our diving, and you made one. You sort of lost the toss -- You accepted the (known) poor operator and the (known) poor equipment in the face of (known) challenging conditions, and you ended up with a successful but stressful dive. I think you just have to shrug and say you paid your money and you took your choice. I don't think dive operators should offer dives to advanced sites without good boats, good captains, and emergency equipment, but it's my personal opinion that people diving advanced sites should either have their own gear, or have ascertained the quality and condition of the equipment before they dive it. I'm very current-averse, so there is no way I'd get in the water in the Galapagos without equipment about which I felt one hundred percent sure. But that's me.

[Leejnd]

:::sigh::: Ya gotta love Scubaboard! If there is one place you can be SURE that your snout is going to rubbed deep into every false move you made ten times more than you need to actually learn your lesson, this is the place. ;)

TSandM, you made an erroneous assumption above: that I knew nothing about the dive op. That is not true. I actually DID do my research. I read everything I could find on the internet, going years back, on this dive op. Unfortunately there wasn't a whole lot out there about them, other than a few blog posts and positive reviews from satisfied divers, and one years-old post here on SB from a diver who got sick the day before his trip and tried to cancel that morning, and was mad that the dive op wouldn't refund their money. (And I was on the side of the dive op on that one.) I also scoured the dive op's website, and read details about the dive sites so I'd know what to expect. I even read detailed reviews of the specific dive sites that were done with other dive ops. I posted numerous questions in the South America forum (go look - you'll see at least a couple dozen of my posts in there, and at least one or two threads that I myself started.) I think I did my due dilligence, and I kinda resent the implication that I didn't.

I also told the booking agent that I wanted a dive op that uses ScubaPro gear (because that's what my husband has, and he is less open to change than I am ;)), and she assured me they do (and they did...it was just really OLD and crappy ScubaPro gear.)

Your point seems to be, in the end, that I shouldn't have even planned on diving if a) the trip wasn't focused on diving, and b) I couldn't bring my gear. I accept that that is your opinion. I personally couldn't pass up the opportnity to dive in Galapagos while on a non-dive-focused trip, and it seems there are plenty of others in here who can understand. But you are right: as I've stated before, I assessed the risks, and made my choices. And look what I got out of it: some memories of hammerhead shark sightings, one very adrenaline-inducing experience, and this awesome thread in which I can keep all of you guys entertained as you continue to throw spit-balls at me! What more could an intrepid diver ask for! :D

[austriandiveress]

LeeAnn, I would have done what you did, for sure. We once ended up in Montenegro, had our own regs etc but of course no tanks. You've never seen such rusty old things in your life! I couldnt dive that day due to an ear problem, but my BF jumped in the water with a local dive guide who smoked in the boat as well as while floating around in the water in full gear (never seen that either, before or since), and he had no computer. (my BF did) It wasnt nearly as adventurous or challenging a dive as the one you describe, but still seemed worth a 3 hour boat ride, simply to have the experience of diving where not too many people get to go. Smart? Not so smart? Who's to say? We often involve ourselves in riskier behaviour on land ............ just my €2.

[Leejnd]

Sorry for the double post, but I just had to add that I REALLY agree with you on one point:

I don't think dive operators should offer dives to advanced sites without good boats, good captains, and emergency equipment.

YES YES YES! If this had in fact been the case, this thread wouldn't even exist.

[Shasta_man]

Lee, you're just not getting it. We're telling you there's diving and then everything else. :-) That's satire since you can't see my smile.

I think you're forgetting that you've posted this as learning for everyone. The posts aren't just talking to you but those who read this. You decided to do what you valued and that was your decision, and that's fine, but since we're talking to others perhaps less experienced, we have to still point out our concerns with this decision.

I have to still stand by my comment but I've said it and your responses are clear you still disagree. That's OK, but I think I can clarify my point by saying this: Would someone go to the Galapagos and not dive based on what could be sketchy gear/op? No probably unreasonable to expect that. So yes, you do dive one. My comment came because after day one's experience, you went day two. Yes, you recognized the danger, thought about it and agonized over it, but my comment came because you still went. In stark analysis, you're judged by your decision, not by how much you agonized over it.

My angle is really TSandMs. At this point in my interests, I tend to plan diving trips which include sightseeing. I dive until I'm done diving, then I sightsee or anything else. That's partly so I have time to adjust if diving is delayed (sightseeing has to go!) and partly so I'm not exposed to illness in the foreign land I'm in any more than absolutely necessary because if you're sick, you can't dive (Read that too newbies!).

We can see how you went on this trip because it was an opportunity and why you dove, but I felt diving day two was where you made a decision that concerned me. Like TSandM said, in a place like the Galapagos, my own gear is a must. So, after day one, I would have had to say, hey, I've got to do something else and doggone it, we HAVE to come back to DIVE! We're only talking a day. You had to have seen amazing things already. I mean, now you know the place, you can be comfortable coming and what to expect. Recon where you want to go so you can come back easily. That's an advantage we don't usually have.

So I'm glad you survived. I'm sure the next decision point will be just as difficult.

Thank you to everyone's comments and tips. I'll try to remember them on my upcoming trip. I'm going all the way to Raja Ampat and don't have enough vacation time to visit the land too. ARGH!! But a land only trip will be peanuts compared to paying for the liveaboard. :-)

[Valhalla]

Leejnd,
I beleive the best lesson learned from your mishap is the need for more research. It is nearly imposiable to discern whether a operation is good or bad without direct testimonials from those whom you trust and respect. It is perhaps much easier for some more heavily involved in diving such as TSandM and others (perhaps myself) who have training agencies, friends, etc, from which to inquire. In this case that conduit was someone whom you knew of quite loosely, if at all. Take advantage of other's due dilgence and experience. This point and mistake #3 are the only things I would beat myself up over. You know the old saying, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Well, you are a bit stronger and more knowledgable now. When the thread dies out drink a glass of wine or two and get back out diving! Scott :)

[Bubbletrubble]

Leejnd,
I beleive the best lesson learned from your mishap is the need for more research. It is nearly imposiable to discern whether a operation is good or bad without direct testimonials from those whom you trust and respect. It is perhaps much easier for some more heavily involved in diving such as TSandM and others (perhaps myself) who have training agencies, friends, etc, from which to inquire. In this case that conduit was someone whom you knew of quite loosely, if at all. Take advantage of other's due dilgence and experience. This point and mistake #3 are the only things I would beat myself up over. You know the old saying, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Well, you are a bit stronger and more knowledgable now. When the thread dies out drink a glass of wine or two and get back out diving! Scott :)
Scott, I'm going to provide another view here. Your point regarding "due diligence" research is a good one, but I have to disagree about that being the best lesson learned here. To be sure, there was a great deal to digest...with lots of issues contributing to a dangerous situation. In my opinion, one of the most important (if not the most important) lesson from this adventure is that a diver must assess that his/her gear is in functional condition before the dive begins, regardless of whether the diver owns that gear or if it is rented from a dive shop halfway around the world. As soon as this responsibility is abdicated, the diver introduces an unacceptable level of uncertainty into the whole equation. I think that LeeAnne recognizes this as evidenced in Post #46. Good for her. I hope that even when she's at home and using her well-cared for, well-maintained dive gear that she'll still do a comprehensive pre-dive check for functionality. Maybe her pre-dive routine will change as a result of her recent experience. If it does, it can only make her a safer diver.

For all of the newbies out there, please understand that it is your responsibility to check your gear before a dive. It is not the responsibility of the DM, your spouse, your dive instructor friend, your buddy who has 1,000+ dives, or even the captain of the dive boat. Airplane pilots don't just trust that the maintenance/repair crew has everything on the plane in good working order. Pilots go over each critical instrument in a pre-flight check themselves. Perhaps this is the kind of accountable behavior we all should seek to emulate. Develop a solid pre-dive routine or checklist and stick to it no matter what gear you are using.

Diving is a lot of fun...but it can also be dangerous. Let's all act accordingly.

Now where's that glass of wine that Scott mentioned? :D

[Valhalla]

Scott, I'm going to provide another view here. Your point regarding "due diligence" research is a good one, but I have to disagree about that being the best lesson learned here. To be sure, there was a great deal to digest...with lots of issues contributing to a dangerous situation. In my opinion, one of the most important (if not the most important) lesson from this adventure is that a diver must assess that his/her gear is in functional condition before the dive begins, regardless of whether the diver owns that gear or if it is rented from a dive shop halfway around the world. As soon as this responsibility is abdicated, the diver introduces an unacceptable level of uncertainty into the whole equation. I think that LeeAnne recognizes this as evidenced in Post #46. Good for her. I hope that even when she's at home and using her well-cared for, well-maintained dive gear that she'll still do a comprehensive pre-dive check for functionality. Maybe her pre-dive routine will change as a result of her recent experience. If it does, it can only make her a safer diver.

For all of the newbies out there, please understand that it is your responsibility to check your gear before a dive. It is not the responsibility of the DM, your spouse, your dive instructor friend, your buddy who has 1,000+ dives, or even the captain of the dive boat. Airplane pilots don't just trust that the maintenance/repair crew has everything on the plane in good working order. Pilots go over each critical instrument in a pre-flight check themselves. Perhaps this is the kind of accountable behavior we all should seek to emulate. Develop a solid pre-dive routine or checklist and stick to it no matter what gear you are using.

Diving is a lot of fun...but it can also be dangerous. Let's all act accordingly.

Now where's that glass of wine that Scott mentioned? :D

Fair point although the BCD was just one facet of the picture here which we beat to death already. From the Op's orginal post this was a slipshod operation from start to finish. When I travel I always gravitate towards technical diving operations, if any, that are inherently smaller (no cattle boats) and generally much more professional. As I mentioned before, if I cannot pack my 4 pound BCD I am staying home....One exception, Extreme Exposure Aquatic Center, High Springs, FL. They have my BP/Wings for rent and you could eat your dinner off their floor it's that clean...:)

[Leejnd]

You know the old saying, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Well, you are a bit stronger and more knowledgable now. When the thread dies out drink a glass of wine or two and get back out diving! Scott :)

Actually I think I'll have that glass of wine now! Although I'm a little worried it may come spouting out of me like a sprinkler through the many holes that have been poked-and-poked-and-poked in me in this thread... :cool2:

I do understand that this thread is to help others learn from the things that happened to me. And I think the lessons are clear, and have been repeated and clarified and scrutinized and taken apart down to their most basic level. And I still think y'all are being a wee bit hard on me...how many times do I have to acknowledge that I shouldn't have gone the second day? And after acknowledging that a certain number of times, do repeated reminders that I shouldn't have gone the second day really serve any purpose, other than to leave more holes in me for my wine to come spouting out of? But anyway, I get it. Really, I do. I said it before, and I'll say it again, and I will probably have to say it yet again in this thread when someone else comes along and feels I still haven't learned my lesson: MEA CULPA. I should have tested the BCD better. And I shouldn't have gone the 2nd day at all. There, I said it again. :)

I also agree that it's probably easier for people who somehow work within the dive industry to get good referrals to dive ops. Unfortunately, that doesn't help those of us who are just divers. What are my options? What COULD I have done differently? I don't know anyone in the Galapagos! I researched and read and posted and asked questions. I found a booking agent that I thought I could trust. We emailed back and forth quite a bit...and then we started talking on the phone. I didn't just blindly follow the first thing I found...I did my due dilligence to the best of my ability. Short of moving to the Galapagos for a few months in advance, how else can yer everyday average dive traveler choose a dive op there? Or are we back to...I just shouldn't have gone at all? Because that I reject.

In the end, I think we need to remember where the BIGGEST failure was here...the dive op. I shouldn't have to worry that when I go diving with a dive op, they might give me bad DMs and bum gear. I should be able to trust that I will GET WHAT I PAID FOR. And not put my life in jeopardy.

What I would REALLY like to see is for all dive ops to take their jobs seriously, and give divers good service, good equipment, and good safety practices. And I'm doing my part to help that. Now, the next diver looking to dive in the Galapagos, when they do a search on Sub-Aqua, will see my thread and think twice. And, what would be even BETTER, would be if Sub-Aqua hears about this (which they will, from the booking agent) and makes a concerted effort to improve their operation so the next brave soul who takes their life in their hands by renting gear and diving with them won't have to go through what I did. THAT would be the best outcome, IMO.

Now where's that wine?

[Leejnd]

Scott, I'm going to provide another view here. Your point regarding "due diligence" research is a good one, but I have to disagree about that being the best lesson learned here. To be sure, there was a great deal to digest...with lots of issues contributing to a dangerous situation. In my opinion, one of the most important (if not the most important) lesson from this adventure is that a diver must assess that his/her gear is in functional condition before the dive begins, regardless of whether the diver owns that gear or if it is rented from a dive shop halfway around the world. As soon as this responsibility is abdicated, the diver introduces an unacceptable level of uncertainty into the whole equation. I think that LeeAnne recognizes this as evidenced in Post #46. Good for her. I hope that even when she's at home and using her well-cared for, well-maintained dive gear that she'll still do a comprehensive pre-dive check for functionality. Maybe her pre-dive routine will change as a result of her recent experience. If it does, it can only make her a safer diver.

For all of the newbies out there, please understand that it is your responsibility to check your gear before a dive. It is not the responsibility of the DM, your spouse, your dive instructor friend, your buddy who has 1,000+ dives, or even the captain of the dive boat. Airplane pilots don't just trust that the maintenance/repair crew has everything on the plane in good working order. Pilots go over each critical instrument in a pre-flight check themselves. Perhaps this is the kind of accountable behavior we all should seek to emulate. Develop a solid pre-dive routine or checklist and stick to it no matter what gear you are using.

Diving is a lot of fun...but it can also be dangerous. Let's all act accordingly.

Now where's that glass of wine that Scott mentioned? :D

I'm quoting this entire post, because I think it's all just so accurate and on-point. YES I have learned a really good lesson about checking my gear. And I have saved your list of pre-dive check for BCDs. It's a reminder of why I read the Accidents and Near Misses forums to begin with - I swear I have learned more about being a safe diver from these forums than anywhere else other than my original OW/AOW classes. I always tell every newbie that they should read these forums if they want to become safer divers.

In fact, it was in the Accidents forum that I first read a caution about ditching weights if there are divers below you. So if you think about it, if not for this forum, there may very well be a thread in that forum right now about some poor diver who got killed by having a weight belt dropped on his head at Gordon Rocks in the Galapagos!

Which brings up a point that is kind of off-topic, but it occurred to me at some point so I thought I'd mention it...My own gear has integrated weight pouches, whereas the rental gear involved one of those old-fashioned weight belts with lead blocks. It occurred to me that if I was wearing my own gear, my concern about ditching my weights would have been less, because I use those soft weights (made out of, I think, little lead beads in a packet?) and they are in two separate pouches, which I imagine would be less dangerous, and easier to dodge (or at least survive getting bonked in the head by) than one of those long weight belts with hard lead blocks that might crash into someone's head and even get wrapped around their neck. So if I'd had my own gear, I probably would have immediately ditched my weights.

But that's all academic, since I didn't have my gear. Anyway, just food for thought.

[Valhalla]

In waters over 78 degress I have no need for weights with my .5mm skin and AL BP/Wings...:D

Having my glass(s) of wine. Have a good weekend all!

[Valhalla]

I'm quoting this entire post, because I think it's all just so accurate and on-point. YES I have learned a really good lesson about checking my gear. And I have saved your list of pre-dive check for BCDs. It's a reminder of why I read the Accidents and Near Misses forums to begin with - I swear I have learned more about being a safe diver from these forums than anywhere else other than my original OW/AOW classes. I always tell every newbie that they should read these forums if they want to become safer divers.

In fact, it was in the Accidents forum that I first read a caution about ditching weights if there are divers below you. So if you think about it, if not for this forum, there may very well be a thread in that forum right now about some poor diver who got killed by having a weight belt dropped on his head at Gordon Rocks in the Galapagos!

Which brings up a point that is kind of off-topic, but it occurred to me at some point so I thought I'd mention it...My own gear has integrated weight pouches, whereas the rental gear involved one of those old-fashioned weight belts with lead blocks. It occurred to me that if I was wearing my own gear, my concern about ditching my weights would have been less, because I use those soft weights (made out of, I think, little lead beads in a packet?) and they are in two separate pouches, which I imagine would be less dangerous, and easier to dodge (or at least survive getting bonked in the head by) than one of those long weight belts with hard lead blocks that might crash into someone's head and even get wrapped around their neck. So if I'd had my own gear, I probably would have immediately ditched my weights.

But that's all academic, since I didn't have my gear. Anyway, just food for thought.


I don't think anyone was hard on you. Your original post indicated you were posting for others to avoid similar mistakes. Who knows how many trips you will have made safer as a consequence (1076 views)! To be honest, with your intellgence and experience you were never in much danger it seems. Only the divers who are ignorant of the practice of dropping weight at the surface when negatively bouyant would have been in any real harm. With regard to soft weights they are filled with lead shot...

Quick story about near misses. One of the larger dive charter operators (also an instructor) in Palm Beach County many years ago (still in business) quickly assembled his gear (doubles) on his boat one afternoon and rolled off the side on a solo dive. When nearing the bottom (75') he realized to his horror that he had forgotten to affix his wing (bouyancy) to his rig and was now virtually anchored to the bottom. He took a couple of deep long breaths and contemplated his predicament then doff'd his rig and made a seccessful emergency swimming ascent to the surface...If he could make such a mistake I think you are in good shape for the future...

[TSandM]

Lee, any time you post something here, it's going to get discussed to death -- that's what bulletin boards are FOR :) I've taken my fair share of drubbings, I'll tell you. But it's still good to have these stories to read, and it's good to have input from a variety of people, because these are painless learning experiences for the people who read them without having made the mistakes. Your ego will heal, but you may well have kept some much more novice diver from ending up on a rough surface with a nonfunctional BC some day.

[Bubbletrubble]

Which brings up a point that is kind of off-topic, but it occurred to me at some point so I thought I'd mention it...My own gear has integrated weight pouches, whereas the rental gear involved one of those old-fashioned weight belts with lead blocks. It occurred to me that if I was wearing my own gear, my concern about ditching my weights would have been less, because I use those soft weights (made out of, I think, little lead beads in a packet?) and they are in two separate pouches, which I imagine would be less dangerous, and easier to dodge (or at least survive getting bonked in the head by) than one of those long weight belts with hard lead blocks that might crash into someone's head and even get wrapped around their neck. So if I'd had my own gear, I probably would have immediately ditched my weights.

But that's all academic, since I didn't have my gear. Anyway, just food for thought.
LeeAnne,

It's downright considerate of you to think of those beneath you in an emergency situation. Next time, however, if you're in a similar situation, let 'er rip. Ditch that weight without hesitation! I practice the golden rule when it comes to diving. If I were doing a safety stop and someone above me was in a life-or-death emergency situation at the surface, I would welcome whatever weight belt they wanted to throw down at me. At least they'd be alive...and I might have a bruise or two, but I'd be OK with that. I suspect you'd feel the same way if you were that person underneath the struggling diver at the surface.

Just thinking out loud here (again), but you were negatively buoyant at the surface with an empty AL80, a 5mm wetsuit, and wearing a BCD that likely had a couple of pounds of inherent positive buoyancy. Yup, that's over-weighted. I'm baffled as to how doing a weight check (without your BCD+tank, like the DM had you do) could ever result in over-weighting anyone. If anything, it will under-weight you, right? Probably caused by them giving you the wrong weight belt like you said. :D

Quick story about near misses. One of the larger dive charter operators (also an instructor) in Palm Beach County many years ago (still in business) quickly assembled his gear (doubles) on his boat one afternoon and rolled off the side on a solo dive. When nearing the bottom (75') he realized to his horror that he had forgotten to affix his wing (bouyancy) to his rig and was now virtually anchored to the bottom.
Now that's what I call a dirt dart!

Enjoy the wine, everyone. :happyjazz:

[Valhalla]

"Now that's what I call a dirt dart!"


I have it filed under Wile E Coyote - Canyon Floor/Cloud of Dust in my twisted mind...:D

[Bubbletrubble]

I have it filed under Wile E Coyote - Canyon Floor/Cloud of Dust in my twisted mind...:D
Yeah. Can you imagine the letters "A-C-M-E" plastered on the tanks? :D

[Leejnd]

Lee, any time you post something here, it's going to get discussed to death -- that's what bulletin boards are FOR :)

Oh, I know...I did expect some lively conversation, and at least some degree of dart-throwing. I guess I just got a little weary of so MANY reminders of my mistakes and suggestions that I hadn't learned my lessons, even though I (repeatedly) stated that I had. But no worries - it's all to be expected. Just like my getting my feathers a bit ruffled over it is to be expected. I'm a normal person with a normal ego, so enough dart-throwing and I start to feel a little prickly myself, ya know? ;)

Your ego will heal, but you may well have kept some much more novice diver from ending up on a rough surface with a nonfunctional BC some day. I'd certainly like to think so! At the very least, I might warn away some divers from a dive op that is currently operating unsafely.

[Leejnd]

LeeAnne,

It's downright considerate of you to think of those beneath you in an emergency situation. Next time, however, if you're in a similar situation, let 'er rip. Ditch that weight without hesitation!

That's what my husband keeps telling me!

The fact that I hesitated and thought about the divers below me at all is kind of an interesting study on the impact of these forums, and how we gather info and learn. I had JUST read several posts about this, in which people theorized that another diver in trouble hadn't ditched weights due to concerns about the divers below him. I had never even had that thought before. So suddenly I find myself in a situation in which I am considering ditching my weights, and that was the first thing that crossed my mind! Interesting, huh?

[Abaco24]

I wouldn't have made it to #3, since you can afford to dive around the world, screw the $170 and head to the cabana next time.

Actually I would have stopped after the 1st dive.

[drdaddy]

Thanks for not being critical. But I just gotta ask you...if you were going to be on a trip that included the Galapagos Islands - arguably one of the top dive destinations on the planet - and you knew you had two free days in which you COULD get in a few dives -- wouldn't you? Can you imagine the flak I'd take from all my dive friends if I went to the freaking Galapagos Islands and didn't dive?

Also, please remember that this was a packaged, guided group tour. Up until the last two days, we were led by the noses everywhere we went. All activities planned, all meals and travel and accommodations and tours included. That is NOT the way I normally travel - I tend to be a very independent traveler, and generally like to make all my own arrangements and be in control of my own destiny. This is the first one of these packaged tours I've ever gone on. But we were invited to participate with some friends of ours, and it was going to places we wanted to see, so we went along. Frankly I was glad to get away from all the scheduled activities on those last two days and do something on our OWN.

Hindsight being 20/20 and all that, yeah maybe we should have brought our gear, or not even tried to squeeze in the diving...and of course checked the gear better, and bailed on the second day, etc etc etc. But I'm sorry, I just don't know a single person who is as passionate about diving as I am who could find themselves in the Galapagos and not try to squeeze in some diving, somehow.

I appreciate everyone's efforts to find the flaw in my behavior that led to this. But I think that questioning whether I should even have tried to go diving to begin with is going a little overboard. I have many talents, but prognostication is not among them.



That's the thing - diving wasn't the focus of this trip. It was tacked on at the end. Further, with all the travel, transfers, and destination-hopping - we stayed at no fewer than six different hotels, as well as a small-ship for 4 days - I'm not so sure it would have been a good idea to try to bring our gear anyway. So is the lesson that, if diving isn't the focus of your trip, don't go diving? That's rather limiting. Or perhaps the lesson is just to NEVER EVER EVER rent equipment. Now that one I'll buy! :D

I'm just thinking, "What if I just happened to end up at some incredible dive place?" I would rent gear. And I would use my credit card. But, I hope that if a wreck came along (with junk for dive gear) to take me out, I would have the wisdom to "just say no". I would then dispute the charges on the credit card. However, regardless of the financial outcome, you have helped me and others to think this through - and we'd be more likely to walk away from the situation.

I do wonder, now (since we all want to go), how does one find a great (and safe) dive operator in the Galapagos?

[Abaco24]

Darwin and his theory would be the best dive outfit and hope you don't end up in the annual "Darwin Awards"

[Valhalla]

I'm just thinking, "What if I just happened to end up at some incredible dive place?" I would rent gear. And I would use my credit card. But, I hope that if a wreck came along (with junk for dive gear) to take me out, I would have the wisdom to "just say no". I would then dispute the charges on the credit card. However, regardless of the financial outcome, you have helped me and others to think this through - and we'd be more likely to walk away from the situation.

I do wonder, now (since we all want to go), how does one find a great (and safe) dive operator in the Galapagos?

For starters I would post thread inquiries right here on SB in the appropriate forums paying close attention to divers and not those with conflicts of interest. How bout Googling and making several phone calls as well. As discuused earlier live-aboards appear to be the way to go down there....

[D_B]

LeeAnne .... you certainly have a good attitude about flak given you here , you can readily tell that you have learned much from this, I have, and so can many others that come along later and read this thread

All your research into the dives, the area, the operators, all that work that you did would have seemed to be enough to know in advance what to expect .. the fact that it was not is .. not your fault, and not very encouraging ether

[cloudswinger]

For starters I would post thread inquiries right here SB on the appropriate forums paying attention to divers and not those with conflicts of interest. How bout Googling and making several phone calls as well. As discuused earlier live-aboards appear to be the way to go down there....

Well, her agent was a SB member. And all the research on the primary op doesn't help if they subcontract out. It's not like the subcontractor announced that they weren't the primary dive op. The second day was the primary op and apparently better run. Although I don't understand why both ops are sharing rental equipment, if that one rental bc was on both boats. Unless it was two different bcs, and two different problems. Or, I suppose, the one op supplied all the gear and was just contracting out the boat. I would ask for my rental fee back. I probably would have made the same decisions regarding continuing the dives, especially since I probably would only be going to the Galapagos once too. Although I'd go there when the water is warm, not in their winter like you did.

I don't think I would let them give me the wrong weight belt, or at least would have adjusted the weights. Those lead blocks are pretty easy to add up. Even if it is metric.

I have seen other threads talking about how bcs aren't super critical to diving, since for a long time they were not used in diving. Is that still the case here? And in the washing machine surface, I wonder if a snorkel would have helped, especially since you were out of air. OTOH, the DM was right there, unlike other dive ops where the DM was on the boat or nowhere near.

If the valve popped at the top, you fully inflated the bc. Which I don't, since generally if I'm at the top, I'm floating. Is that something I should be doing, fully inflating at the surface? The only time my OPV valve pops is when I'm testing it, I've never had it pop in the water.

And then the novices had no problems. So although it partially was luck of the draw, since they probably were renting gear also, but also I think that the intermediate levels have more to think about and do so too much sometimes. I'm pretty sure they'd all say that had a great time, and the dive op was great, at least for the second day.

I agree about the packaged tours, I've been on one, and while it was enjoyable, that one was enough. Did you do a loop tour with a side trip or an open jaw tour(where you fly in one city and out another)? If you did a loop, you could have stashed some gear to be picked up later. I was thinking about doing that for a trip I was planning. It was for both a snow area and a tropical area, so would have some of the same clothing/gear packing challenges. Although clothes are cheap, so I tend to pack less clothes and wash or buy along the way.

[hudson]

Since I haven't seen this addressed: the regulator inspection steps posted below can be (and should be) performed quickly in the field with the exception of steps 9-11, and maybe 7, for various reasons:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/4320058-post14.html

In the end, I think we need to remember where the BIGGEST failure was here...the dive op. I shouldn't have to worry that when I go diving with a dive op, they might give me bad DMs and bum gear. I should be able to trust that I will GET WHAT I PAID FOR. And not put my life in jeopardy.

I'd just like to add that while that's true, if we want to be realistic about it, our focus should be what us divers can do about it, because bad ops will always be out there.

[Valhalla]

Well, her agent was a SB member. And all the research on the primary op doesn't help if they subcontract out. It's not like the subcontractor announced that they weren't the primary dive op. The second day was the primary op and apparently better run. Although I don't understand why both ops are sharing rental equipment, if that one rental bc was on both boats. Unless it was two different bcs, and two different problems. Or, I suppose, the one op supplied all the gear and was just contracting out the boat. I would ask for my rental fee back. I probably would have made the same decisions regarding continuing the dives, especially since I probably would only be going to the Galapagos once too. Although I'd go there when the water is warm, not in their winter like you did.

I don't think I would let them give me the wrong weight belt, or at least would have adjusted the weights. Those lead blocks are pretty easy to add up. Even if it is metric.

I have seen other threads talking about how bcs aren't super critical to diving, since for a long time they were not used in diving. Is that still the case here? And in the washing machine surface, I wonder if a snorkel would have helped, especially since you were out of air. OTOH, the DM was right there, unlike other dive ops where the DM was on the boat or nowhere near.

If the valve popped at the top, you fully inflated the bc. Which I don't, since generally if I'm at the top, I'm floating. Is that something I should be doing, fully inflating at the surface? The only time my OPV valve pops is when I'm testing it, I've never had it pop in the water.

And then the novices had no problems. So although it partially was luck of the draw, since they probably were renting gear also, but also I think that the intermediate levels have more to think about and do so too much sometimes. I'm pretty sure they'd all say that had a great time, and the dive op was great, at least for the second day.

I agree about the packaged tours, I've been on one, and while it was enjoyable, that one was enough. Did you do a loop tour with a side trip or an open jaw tour(where you fly in one city and out another)? If you did a loop, you could have stashed some gear to be picked up later. I was thinking about doing that for a trip I was planning. It was for both a snow area and a tropical area, so would have some of the same clothing/gear packing challenges. Although clothes are cheap, so I tend to pack less clothes and wash or buy along the way.

The SB member obviously had a conflict of interest. There is a tremendous body of knowledge and experience from which to draw from on SB and other scuba forums without having to rely on someone's opionion who has a financial interest at stake. Hey, I am not second guessing anyone. I am engaging in post trip analysis for which I have learned a great deal thanks to the OP putting her head on the perverbial SB cutting block. Good point about the DM's performance. As I stated earlier with her knowledge of scuba skills and the assistance from others she was never in grave danger IMO. Also good point about the use of a snorkel on such dives. I may have to acquire one agian. My last snorkel was made a fast moving projectile into Florida's Gulfstream current many years ago after my last PADI AOW dive. :D If this happened to be a tec dive (doubles rig) results could have been worse but as TSandMan indicates such divers do not rent equipment normally.

[Leejnd]

LeeAnne .... you certainly have a good attitude about flak given you here , you can readily tell that you have learned much from this, I have, and so can many others that come along later and read this thread

All your research into the dives, the area, the operators, all that work that you did would have seemed to be enough to know in advance what to expect .. the fact that it was not is .. not your fault, and not very encouraging ether

THANK YOU! It's awfully nice to have at least someone recognize that I HAVE been dealt a lot of flak in here. Some people seem to think that I haven't...or that I've been overreacting. Trust me, I have bitten my tongue from jumping in to defend myself more times than I can count. I knew my every action would get shredded when I posted this thread, and I thought I was prepared for it, but I have to admit it's been rather tougher to deal with than I thought. Hey, I have an ego like everyone else, and when divers jump in here and say "Oh I would NEVER let that happen to me!" they might as well just come right out and say "Well aren't you a moron, I'm so much better than you." At least that's what it feels like. I'm just trying to remind myself that allowing myself to be a dart board for everyone who thinks they are so much better able to handle things in the heat of the moment than I was, is ultimately for the greater good of the dive community.

But to all those people who have self-righteously posted that they would never allow this to happen to them...yeah, I might have said that too. Until it happened to me. Things often happen very fast - such as the DM's throwing a weight belt on me and then shoving me into my BC before I had a chance to count the weights, because the surface is such a roiling washing machine in Gordon Rocks that they don't gear you up until right before you are supposed to back-roll in and everyone has to roll in simultaneously and you find yourself in a situation where you just have to trust the guys you paid the big money to, that they are going to do the right thing to keep you alive.

And it's awfully nice to have someone acknowledge that I really did do quite a bit of research, and went with the option that seemed the best. I didn't just throw a dart at the phone book and pick the first dive op I saw. I researched. I read. I posted questions. I made phone calls and talked at length to people. I could not have predicted that this is what would have happened. But hopefully the next diver who is doing their own research will encounter this thread and make a different (hopefully better) choice.

[Leejnd]

Well, her agent was a SB member. And all the research on the primary op doesn't help if they subcontract out. It's not like the subcontractor announced that they weren't the primary dive op.

Thank you for pointing that out.

The second day was the primary op and apparently better run. Although I don't understand why both ops are sharing rental equipment, if that one rental bc was on both boats. Unless it was two different bcs, and two different problems.

It was the same gear. The DMs on the first day met us at the Sub-Aqua shop, and geared us up from their gear. We then proceeded to, evidently go and get on the Sharks Friends boat. The second day I again went to the Sub-Aqua shop, and from there they actually drove us to the other side of the island to board the Sub-Aqua boat.

I probably would have made the same decisions regarding continuing the dives, especially since I probably would only be going to the Galapagos once too. Although I'd go there when the water is warm, not in their winter like you did.

Thanks for saying this. As for the timing, we didn't choose the timing - that's when the tour was going. But I think I still would have gone at this time...the colder currents bring more life! As for the water temp, remember, I live in SoCal, where it's c-c-c-cold water diving all year round. That water in Galapagos was downright balmy to me! ;)

I don't think I would let them give me the wrong weight belt, or at least would have adjusted the weights. Those lead blocks are pretty easy to add up. Even if it is metric.

That's easy to say in hindsight, but like I mentioned earlier, they were throwing gear on us so fast that we just didn't catch it. And not being familiar with calculating weight in metrics, it was just one more failure point. But...lesson learned.

I have seen other threads talking about how bcs aren't super critical to diving, since for a long time they were not used in diving. Is that still the case here? And in the washing machine surface, I wonder if a snorkel would have helped, especially since you were out of air. OTOH, the DM was right there, unlike other dive ops where the DM was on the boat or nowhere near.

I always inflate my BC to the max once I'm on the surface, just because then I don't have to work to stay afloat. Why not just bob on the surface and let the BC do the work? In this case, a snorkel probably wouldn't have helped because of the wild washing machine surface...the waves were slapping me in the face and were way higher than my snorkel would have been. I think a snorkel would have just filled up with water and made it worse. I did have my own mask with me...and it had no snorkel attached. I stopped diving with a snorkel because I do a lot of beach dives at home, and surf entries can cause a snorkel to rip your mask off your face.

I am definitely fortunate that the DM was there. If he hadn't have been, I do think I would have survived, though - I would have ditched my weights and possibly even my whole rig and then I would have been buoyant just by virtue of my 5 mil wetsuit, and I'm a strong enough swimmer that I'm sure I could have been able to keep myself from drowning on the surface, even though it was really rough. At least, that's what I'd like to think! :D

If the valve popped at the top, you fully inflated the bc. Which I don't, since generally if I'm at the top, I'm floating. Is that something I should be doing, fully inflating at the surface? The only time my OPV valve pops is when I'm testing it, I've never had it pop in the water.

I'm not so sure it was the OPV valve, which I believe is at the bottom of the BC. I believe it was the inflator tube. But this is pure speculation. I never did go back to look at the BC to see what was actually wrong with it.

I agree about the packaged tours, I've been on one, and while it was enjoyable, that one was enough. Did you do a loop tour with a side trip or an open jaw tour(where you fly in one city and out another)? If you did a loop, you could have stashed some gear to be picked up later.


It was not a loop. We started in Lima, Peru, and flew home from Quito, Ecuador.

[Leejnd]

since you can afford to dive around the world, screw the $170 and head to the cabana next time.

You know nothing about my financial situation. I work very hard for my money, pay for all of my travel with my own hard-earned money, and I sacrifice a lot of other things I could be spending my money on. I don't have unlimited funds, nor do I have unlimited vacation time. Every trip is hard-won, and every dive I do in an exotic location is precious and irreplaceable. Oh, and btw it wasn't just $170, it was twice that (if I'd bailed on the second day as well as my hubby, I had to assume we'd forfeit the whole thing.) But thanks for making assumptions about me.

Actually I would have stopped after the 1st dive.

So you say. You clearly are so much better and smarter than me, of course. :cool2:



(Sorry, but I'm starting to feel a little beaten down at this point.)

[Leejnd]

The SB member obviously had a conflict of interest. There is a tremendous body of knowledge and experience from which to draw from on SB and other scuba forums without having to relay on someone's opionion who has a financial interest at stake.

Not true. This person works with all the dive ops on the island, and did not have to send me to this one. She chose this one because they were going where I wanted to go that day, and because she has worked with them before and they did a good job for her. Since she learned of this, she has pulled several clients from them that she was planning on sending with them in the next few days.

I did rely on her opinion, because she is well versed in Galapagos diving and knows all the operators there. And I did take advantage of the tremendous body of knowledge on SB. After doing lots of reading, research, posting of questions in the South America forum, and talking to several people in IMs here on SB, I decided to work with her. So, I was already going to give her my business...she was going to get the commission anyway...it's certainly in her best interest to have a happy (and safe) client, don't you think? So where's the conflict of interest? She doesn't get any more of a commission if she sends me with one dove op over the other.

By the way, I should mention that I heard from her today (she's there now) that Sub-Aqua did, in fact, reimburse her for the amount she reimbursed me. So good for Sub-Aqua. I still would love to have them come in here, accept responsibility for their mistakes, and share with the dive community what they plan on doing to ensure this never happens to anyone else.

[annasea]

I've read the first post, and skimmed through the rest of the thread. A few thoughts...

Thank you, LeeAnne, for being brave enough to post your experiences, and moreso for continuing to post in this thread. Many times people post their negative experiences and wind up abandoning their threads due to the holier than thou, self-righteous, armchair quarterbacks.

Speaking of which, as has been mentioned before on SB, it is so easy to type from the comfort of your home or workplace what you would or wouldn't have done in similar circumstances. Logic (generally) prevails when one has time to think about the situation.

To those of you who know better than and relentlessly criticize the OPs of these types of threads, I hope you fare just as well in a real-life situation as you do onscreen. :)

[D_B]

Sub-Aqua ... I hope they do too

Your Trip Person .. Kudos to her and her forthright actions

LeeAnne ... for posting

(ps .. sometimes do you wonder if people read the first post at all? )

[cloudswinger]

I'd just like to add that while that's true, if we want to be realistic about it, our focus should be what us divers can do about it, because bad ops will always be out there.

Well is it really a bad op, or just not up to US standards? Regarding safety, other countries may be a bit more casual about safety than the US. Most don't have seat belt laws, or child seats, or drunk driving laws, or even smoking laws. I went to Vietnam and brought a booster seat for my 4yo daughter, but couldn't use it because there were no seat belts! It did help her see out the windows, but there was no safety feature involved. And they all wear helmets, but those helmets look pretty flimsy. OTOH, the speed limit is a lot lower than in the US, and they never really drive more than about 50 mph on the highway, and it probably maxes out around 35 mph in town. What's acceptable there may be completely unacceptable here, and they may not know better.

[Leejnd]

I've read the first post, and skimmed through the rest of the thread. A few thoughts...

Thank you, LeeAnne, for being brave enough to post your experiences, and moreso for continuing to post in this thread. Many times people post their negative experiences and wind up abandoning their threads due to the holier than thou, self-righteous, armchair quarterbacks.

Speaking of which, as has been mentioned before on SB, it is so easy to type from the comfort of your home or workplace what you would or wouldn't have done in similar circumstances. Logic (generally) prevails when one has time to think about the situation.

To those of you who know better than and relentlessly criticize the OPs of these types of threads, I hope you fare just as well in a real-life situation as you do onscreen. :)

Thank you SO MUCH for this post! It really made me feel better, and helped me to see that not everyone out there on SB is going to go for the "easy kill" and dump on the folks who take the risk of putting ourselves out there. This tendency for people who post their incidents to get eviscerated by armchair-quarterbacks is really dangerous, and I know for a fact has prevented many other people from posting their own incidents and lessons-learned. Nobody enjoys having others, especially strangers (who are often anonymous) pick them apart.

And really, what I've been subjected to in here is MILD compared to what I've seen happen to some others!

Of course, some of it is necessary...meaning, the whole point of these threads is to learn, so we DO have to bring to light the mistakes, and ensure that the lessons are clear. But what is completely of no value are the posters who pop in, skim the thread, and then post a "well that would NEVER happen to me" comment.

Which brings up some final thoughts on this whole episode, and what may, in fact, be the most important lesson to be learned of all!

To those who read these stories and immediately think "that would never happen to me" or "I wouldn't make that mistake" or "what an idiot, this is what she/he should have done" or "I would have done this instead", here is what I want you to realize:

The mistakes I made could be made by you too. If you think you are above making mistakes, even these SAME mistakes, you are wrong, and that could be your undoing.

I consider myself a reasonably intelligent, quality person. I'm no kid - I'm about to turn 50 (aack! that's hard to admit!), I've been married for 25 years (to my first husband!), I've raised two good kids. I used to be a telecommunications engineer, then I had a good run as a freelance writer (I've even been published), and now have reached a decent level of success in my third career in Biotech. I've never been in trouble (other than a few traffic tickets) and consider myself a moral, ethical person. I even do jury duty when called upon. I took my dive training very seriously, and make a point of keeping up with my skills.

I'm not saying all of this to have anyone say "oh she thinks she's better than me". I'm saying all of this so you will say to yourself, "She IS me! I'm just LIKE her!" The vast majority of divers that I know are also intelligent, high-quality people. So if you read my story and really, truly think to yourself, "I would never make those mistakes!" then you are making a mistake right there.

I too have read many threads in this forum, and often, my initial reaction was "what a boneheaded move! I would never do that!" But then I stop myself, and try to remember that I could have done it too -- faced with the same exact scenario, I might very well have made the same decisions. And so might you. I have been in a few scary situations in other parts of my life, and I realize that you just can't predict how you are going to react when faced with an emergency...especially one that requires immediate action. We'd all LIKE to think that we would do the right and smart thing. But trust me - you don't know that you would until it happens to you. Nobody's infallible.

The key is to keep up your knowledge. Read these threads, and absorb the lessons. And keep on reading them, because over time they slip to the back. If you don't dive frequently, then don't just go diving without somehow refreshing your knowledge on the basics. The last things that you learned are going to be the first things you remember.

I made some questionable decisions, and did some things wrong. I also made some RIGHT decisions. I learned a few things. And I think the most IMPORTANT thing that I learned is that I can never again read someone else's story and self-righteously think to myself: Oh, I would NEVER do that! Because when yer in the thick of it, guess what: you could.

End of lecture. :D

[openmindOW]

Darwin and his theory would be the best dive outfit and hope you don't end up in the annual "Darwin Awards"

That's a rude comment.

I notice from your profile, Abaco, that Florida appears to be your state of residence. Yet, based on your writing, it's obvious that English is a second or third language for you. Where are you from?

[openmindOW]

To those who read these stories and immediately think "that would never happen to me" or "I wouldn't make that mistake" or "what an idiot, this is what she/he should have done" or "I would have done this instead", here is what I want you to realize:

The mistakes I made could be made by you too. If you think you are above making mistakes, even these SAME mistakes, you are wrong, and that could be your undoing. . . .

I too have read many threads in this forum, and often, my initial reaction was "what a boneheaded move! I would never do that!" But then I stop myself, and try to remember that I could have done it too -- faced with the same exact scenario, I might very well have made the same decisions. And so might you. I have been in a few scary situations in other parts of my life, and I realize that you just can't predict how you are going to react when faced with an emergency...especially one that requires immediate action. We'd all LIKE to think that we would do the right and smart thing. But trust me - you don't know that you would until it happens to you. Nobody's infallible.

Exactly. Anyone can make mistakes.

It's the foolish who think otherwise.

[Valhalla]

That's a rude comment.

I notice from your profile, Abaco, that Florida appears to be your state of residence. Yet, based on your writing, it's obvious that English is a second or third language for you. Where are you from?


It's ironic that you researched abaco24's profile and tried to discern their perspective. I see only that abaco24 has dived in Florida before. Very limited information from which to draw conclusions for sure but 100% more than you have offered. Fugitive? Go ahead and play ball like the rest of us and give us some information to discern your perspective....:)

[Leejnd]

It's ironic that you researched abaco24's profile and tried to discern their perspective. I see only that abaco24 has dived in Florida before. Very limited information from which to draw conclusions for sure but 100% more than you have offered. Fugitive? Go ahead and play ball like the rest of us and give us some information to discern your perspective....:)

Y'know what? Abaco24 made a couple of disrespectful and completely useless comments in this thread. While most people in here have at least made an ATTEMPT to maintain basic decorum and respect the intent of this forum, this person dropped in, made a couple of snarky and insulting comments, and offered nothing of value.

As far as I'm concerned, I give OpenmindOW a pass for questioning this person's perspective and motives.

[Valhalla]

Y'know what? Abaco24 made a couple of disrespectful and completely useless comments in this thread. While most people in here have at least made an ATTEMPT to maintain basic decorum and respect the intent of this forum, this person dropped in, made a couple of snarky and insulting comments, and offered nothing of value.

As far as I'm concerned, I give OpenmindOW a pass for questioning this person's perspective and motives.

Yeah, in early here on the east coast getting ready for a full day of diving tomorrow in 80 degree clear waters. Just a good natured side-bar question of a poster who offers less information then anyother that I have seen in my SB tenure. Let's start anew. Openminded, where are you from? :popcorn:

[Leejnd]

getting ready for a full day of diving tomorrow in 80 degree clear waters. Ya had to tell me that, huh? No fair! I'm jealous! ;)

No diving in the near future for me - I got back from Ecuador and immediately got hit with a nasty headcold, which is still keeping me down. I won't be able to get out there for quite a while, at least until my sinuses clear up. :depressed:

[InTheDrink]

To dip back in briefly.

1. Aside from Abaco24's comments I didn't see one single comment that was having digs at you. I think you're being way over defensive on this point. In fact I may now have created dig #2 :). This is an internet bulletin board so you're going to get a variety of opinion and a fairly thick skin is advisable.

2. My take-away from this initially is that if you rent gear you take your chances. I've stayed at many fancy resorts and nice liveaboards and rental kit has been dubious on many occasions. You take your chances when renting and whether that risk is worth it is a personal question. However I have re-thought my opinion and what I think BubbleTrouble said was spot on - you cannot abdicate the functionality of your dive kit rented or otherwise. Being able to confidently say that 'this kit works' - or 'doesn't work' is key.

Again, glad you're back safely and please don't think that anyone was taking shots at you. They weren't - we're just all trying to learn as best we can and impart whatever bits of knowledge or experience as best we can (which is also frequently flawed, at least in my case).

Happy diving Lee,

J

[Leejnd]

1. Aside from Abaco24's comments I didn't see one single comment that was having digs at you. I think you're being way over defensive on this point. In fact I may now have created dig #2 :). This is an internet bulletin board so you're going to get a variety of opinion and a fairly thick skin is advisable.

Well, first let me point out that even I acknowledged (in a post yesterday) that the drubbing I took in here was mild, comparatively. But that doesn't mean it didn't exist at all. You might think I've been overly defensive, but when I look back through this thread, I see a number of posts which, loosely translated, essentially said "I would never do that." And others in which I, or someone else jumping in on my behalf, had to point out to posters that I DID ALREADY RECOGNIZE MY MISTAKES AND ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEM. In fact, in no fewer than three separate posts, I or someone else even re-quoted my statements from my original post in which I openly stated that I knew what my mistakes were, and had learned the lessons. And yet, people still felt they had to post comments like this one...which, whadaya know, I just realized came from YOU:

Well done for making it back - but you must take some responsibility for proceeding with what you knew were potentially unsafe dives. I'd have likely done the same myself but that doesn't change the fact that you knowingly took the chance.

Like I said at the time...what do you want me to do, take out an ad???

Anyway, I do agree with your take-away that renting gear doesn't mean we abdicate our responsibility to check out our gear. And I have heartily agreed with this more times now than I can count. But if posting it one more time helps you, then I'm happy to say it again. Someone else even posted some very detailed instructions on exactly HOW to check out your rental gear, which I intend to save and review in the unlikely event that I ever rent gear again.

I will say this, tho: responsible dive operators keep their gear serviced and well-maintained…and it’s certainly in their best interest to give only working gear to their clients. Defective gear will lead to dead clients – which is not a good business model. But yes, I agree that it is up to us to not assume that dive operators will do the right thing, especially when it's our hides that are on the line. So, I will repeat...lesson learned. And in the meantime, I think it's important for anyone who does end up with an irresponsible dive op, to post publicly of their experience. If I'd read one bad review of Sub-Aqua before I went, I wouldn't have gone with them.

Again, glad you're back safely and please don't think that anyone was taking shots at you. They weren't - we're just all trying to learn as best we can and impart whatever bits of knowledge or experience as best we can (which is also frequently flawed, at least in my case). Thanks, and I agree that it's a good idea to take these incidents apart and learn from them. I did try to have a thick skin...but that damn ego thing keeps getting in the way. ;) It also doesn't help that I've been hit with a nasty cold which is making me VERY cranky, and preventing me from getting out and doing some local dives! I feel like I need to get back up on that horse, so to speak, because I keep flashing back on that moment when I went to suck air from my reg...and nuthin came out. I need to get myself underwater again!

[InTheDrink]

Hey LeeAnne,

Thanks for your response. I'm not sure if it's the same one but I've got my regs testing checklist printed out myself and have an IP tester now so I can test my kit myself. I'm a lot happier doing this that having my regs serviced as from what I've read on this board it seems to be a common denominator for regs failure. Don't get them serviced unless they are in need of servicing. Establish this by knowing how to test them for yourself. Here's the link - it might be the same one as yours... http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/regulators/260452-regulator-checklist-inspection.html

Anyhow, I just wanted you to realise that people aren't necessarily being snipey with their comments. They're not going to be as emotionally involved in the incident as your are and people's hind sight is always to infinity. I think people frequently say they'd back out of dives under x y and z circumstance but in reality I don't believe people do (this is just my opinion). I went on a sister boat in the Maldives a couple years back after they'd just had 11 injuries and one death from bad air. We knew about it as we set off but we stayed on the boat anyhow. I mitigated that particular risk post trip by getting a CO tester.

Anyhow, save diving and if you've any particular thoughts or questions re diving and travelling or equipment feel free to PM me.

And hope that cold clears up - I recommend hot whiskey with lemon and honey :)

J

[Leejnd]

...people's hind sight is always to infinity.


I love this line! I never heard this before. I'm going to have to steal it and find a use for it. ;)

I think people frequently say they'd back out of dives under x y and z circumstance but in reality I don't believe people do (this is just my opinion). Yeah...I would wholeheartedly agree that there is a lot of truth to this. That was the point I was trying to make in my "lecture" post - don't assume that you won't make the same choices that others make in similar circumstances, or behave in the same manner that, with our always perfect hindsight, seems not-so-smart after the fact.

As for the hot whiskey...I don't happen to have any whiskey around here, but I do have a bottle of Pisco that I managed to bring back from Peru! I absolutely fell in love with their national drink, the Pisco Sour. Think that might help? :D

[Jax]

Yeah...I would wholeheartedly agree that there is a lot of truth to this. That was the point I was trying to make in my "lecture" post - don't assume that you won't make the same choices that others make in similar circumstances, or behave in the same manner that, with our always perfect hindsight, seems not-so-smart after the fact.

Leejnd, I have read though your thread serveral times . . . . including the armchair quarterbacks' lectures . . . truly, I am not sure I would not have done exactly what you did. You balanced the dive of a lifetime against 'flakey' equipment. Wow -- what choices. Especially when one might consider that they might have had different equipment the second time.

I know I learned that if I do have a bad piece of gear, I will thoroughly note any issues with it (like a fray spot here, and a mark there) so if the dive op tried to 'foist' it on me again, I would know.

Thanks so much for sharing your story.

[TSandM]

All of us who post our near misses and lessons learned get beat on a bit. I've taken some horrendous drubbings in the past. Took a big one on DMX recently over my Cave 2 class. I still post because a) I learn some things from doing so and b) as a very lovely note from a friend told me this morning, OTHER people learn from my mistakes, and avoid my bad experiences that way.

Lee, just shrug it off. Take the information that is useful to you, and ignore what you don't like or what is redundant. The thread isn't primarily for your benefit, anyway -- it's for the benefit of the 65,900 lurkers who never post but read all this stuff :)

[InTheDrink]

As for the hot whiskey...I don't happen to have any whiskey around here, but I do have a bottle of Pisco that I managed to bring back from Peru! I absolutely fell in love with their national drink, the Pisco Sour. Think that might help? :D

Yes, in my esteemed medical opinion I believe that will work also. Oh, and have one for me too - my throat is feeling a little raw and one can't be too careful with these things :)

J

[Valhalla]

Leejnd, I have read though your thread serveral times . . . . including the armchair quarterbacks' lectures . . . truly, I am not sure I would not have done exactly what you did.

Is there are any other kind with regard to post accident/trip discussions? (just in case I was included)

I know I learned that if I do have a bad piece of gear, I will thoroughly note any issues with it (like a fray spot here, and a mark there) so if the dive op tried to 'foist' it on me again, I would know.

A couple of knife notches in plastic (Scubapro BCD's have a lot:D) will differentiate quite nicely...:)

[Jax]

A couple of knife notches in plastic (ScubaPro BCD have alot:D) will differentiate quite nicely...:)

:rofl3: :eyebrow:

[Valhalla]

Leejnd, I have read though your thread serveral times . . . . including the armchair quarterbacks' lectures . . . truly, I am not sure I would not have done exactly what you did.

Most all posters other than abaco24 appeared to be experienced divers...

I know I learned that if I do have a bad piece of gear, I will thoroughly note any issues with it (like a fray spot here, and a mark there) so if the dive op tried to 'foist' it on me again, I would know.

A couple of knife notches in plactic (scubaPro BCD have alot:D) will differentiate quite nicely...:)

[Jax]

Most all posters other than abaco24 appeared to be experienced divers...

Hmm . . . please don't take the "armchair quarterback" as a slight . . . it was meant that 'opinions are given by those who were not there, not under the pressure of the moment, and without the various inputs the individual in question had'.

Something I learned from being stationed with a bunch of pilots -- when the cuss & discuss after an incident occurs comes down to "A's" judgment versus "B's" judgement, the rose goes to the guy that was there, because no one else had experienced that situation.

Better?

[Leejnd]

Is there are any other kind with regard to post accident/trip discussions? (just in case I was included)

There is a difference between discussing lessons learned with the focus on seeking to understand, vs. the type of "armchair quarterbacking" in which people simply say "well I never would have done that," with the hidden (or sometimes not so hidden) message being "I'm too smart to have made the same mistakes you did." The former is the reason this forum exists, and is a value to the dive community. The latter does nothing but make the person who told their story feel attacked and dumped-on...and results in fewer divers reporting their incidents.

Over the course of this thread there have been both types of comments. Honestly I can't remember where your comments fit in. If you're not sure which category your comments fell under, you might go back and review them. If they offered info of value to others seeking to learn and understand (and I'm sure they did), then great - thanks! But if you tossed out little barbs that served no purpose other than to highlight how a) I must be a moron for having done what I did, and/or b) you personally are too smart or well trained or superior in your diving skills and decision-making abilities to have made such mistakes, then...well, I guess that speaks for itself.

A couple of knife notches in plastic (Scubapro BCD's have a lot:D) will differentiate quite nicely...:)

I have to assume this is a dig at ScubaPro, because I mentioned that the dive op rented out ScubaPro gear, and my husband's gear is ScubaPro? If so, I'm not sure this thread is the place to engage in such discussions. I know there are many differing opinions about gear configurations, manufacturers, etc...and people can be quite passionate and vociferous about their choices. There are other forums for these types of discussions...which really aren't relevent in the context of this incident.

[Leejnd]

Hmm . . . please don't take the "armchair quarterback" as a slight . . . it was meant that 'opinions are given by those who were not there, not under the pressure of the moment, and without the various inputs the individual in question had'.

Something I learned from being stationed with a bunch of pilots -- when the cuss & discuss after an incident occurs comes down to "A's" judgment versus "B's" judgement, the rose goes to the guy that was there, because no one else had experienced that situation.

Better?

Excellent description of why incident analysis is of great value...but questioning and criticizing the judgement of the person is not.

I agree that not all armchair quarterbacking is negative. Basically, that's what everyone who wasn't there is doing when they discuss the incident at all. Which I have no problem with. My issue, as I described above, is with the type of armchair quarterbacking that can be interpreted as criticizing the person to whom the incident occurred, suggesting that you personally would never have made such choices. Even if that may be true, it is simply wrong to do that, and offers nothing of value to the discussion.

I understand that this can be a fine line, however, because faulty judgements are often the reason incidents happen at all. In fact, it is usually a series of faulty judgements...by more than one person. So how do you point out the flawed decisions without making the person feel dumped-on? It's a challenge!

This is all an academic discussion, though, because we all know that NOBODY in this thread did that to ME...right? :D:D:D

[Valhalla]

There is a difference between discussing lessons learned with the focus on seeking to understand, vs. the type of "armchair quarterbacking" in which people simply say "well I never would have done that," with the hidden (or sometimes not so hidden) message being "I'm too smart to have made the same mistakes you did." The former is the reason this forum exists, and is a value to the dive community. The latter does nothing but make the person who told their story feel attacked and dumped-on...and results in fewer divers reporting their incidents.

Over the course of this thread there have been both types of comments. Honestly I can't remember where your comments fit in. If you're not sure which category your comments fell under, you might go back and review them. If they offered info of value to others seeking to learn and understand (and I'm sure at least some of them did), then great - thanks! But if you tossed out little barbs that served no purpose other than to highlight how a) I must be a moron for having done what I did, and/or b) you personally are too smart or well trained or superior in your diving skills and decision-making abilities to have made such mistakes, then...well, I guess that speaks for itself.



I have to assume this is a dig at ScubaPro, because I mentioned that the dive op rented out ScubaPro gear, and my husband's gear is ScubaPro? If so, I'm not sure this thread is the place to engage in such discussions. I know there are many differing opinions about gear configurations, manufacturers, etc...and people can be quite passionate and vociferous about their choices. (And something tells me you are a proponent of DIR - could be the Halcyon gear.) There are other forums for these types of discussions...which really aren't relevent in the context of this incident.

The problem was the ambigous nature of the phrase armchair quarterback. I googled six sources for definitions and received six definitions with a combination of elements from the sum total of all. I have linked one which boils most of them into one definition that depicts the truly ambigous nature of the term. I took his usage to mean those who do not know what they are talking about or the first portion of the definition linked, when in fact his usage and understanding is the latter portion of the definition. In that you are a writer I will let you take over this subject as if I do not get back to work my dismissal will be the next armchair quarterback discussion. Lol

Armchair quarterback Definition | Definition of Armchair quarterback at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/armchair+quarterback)

[Jax]

The problem was the ambigous nature of the phrase armchair quarterback. I googled six sources for definitions and received six definitions with a combination of elements from the sum total of all. I have linked one which boils most of them into one definition which depicts the truly ambigous nature of the term. I took his usage to mean those who do not know what they are talking about or the first portion of the definition linked when in fact his usage and understanding is the latter portion of the definition. In that you are a writer I will let you take over this subject as if I do not get back to work my dismissal will be the next armchair quarterback discussion. Lol

Wow -- I learned something new! I had always know it as "someone who is not there who is second-guessing the quarterback's decision as happened on the field". It never had any connotation's about one's expertise.

[Valhalla]

Yeah, if Lee keeps this thread going we might close the gap on TSandM in thirty years or so. :)

[Jax]

Yeah, if Lee keeps this thread going I may close the gap on TSandM in thirty years or so. :)

Hey, aren't you supposed to be working?!? :rofl3:
:popcorn:

[Valhalla]

Hey, aren't you supposed to be working?!? :rofl3:
:popcorn:

I even had time to edit as you can see. I changed I to we in our Kumbaya moment. I do like to think I can walk and chew gum at the same time but if I do not reduce my Scubaboard participation somewhat I will be doing beach based dives instead of charter very soon. :D

[Valhalla]

Hey Lee, if you want your thread back just holler! :scream:

[Leejnd]

Hey Lee, if you want your thread back just holler! :scream:

Hell no! This is great! ;) :popcorn:

And hey...got a problem with Kumbaya moments?

And while we're at it...

Definition of a Kumbaya moment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumbaya)

[Valhalla]

Hell no! This is great! ;) :popcorn:

And hey...got a problem with Kumbaya moments?

And while we're at it...

Definition of a Kumbaya moment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumbaya)

You gotta love Wiki...:love:

[openmindOW]

I'm just back to reading this thread. My comment's criticized Abaco's vicous and rude remarks to Anna. If you don't approve of my criticisms, Valhalla, that's fine. I stand by my statement.

[Valhalla]

I'm just back to reading this thread. My comment's criticized Abaco's vicous and rude remarks to Anna. If you don't approve of my criticisms, Valhalla, that's fine. I stand by my statement.

Your comments were very constructive and thoughtfull. I was just razzing you for the lack of profile information but choose my words poorly. You are Ok with me...So can you at least give us your region? Below the 38th parallel? :D

[openmindOW]

If we criticize divers who post onthis Thread, we can create a disincentive, a disincentive to admit errors or to post with complete truthfulness. This is particualrly true with new divers who post.

I have seen new divers get attacked on this Thread. They admit admit errors and then they're criticized. Some of it is just bullying.

[openmindOW]

Your comments were very constructive and thoughtfull. I was just razzing you for the lack of profile information but choose my words poorly. You are Ok with me...So can you at least give us your region? Below the 38th parallel? :D

No problem, D.

Mid-Atlantic East Coast. I dive Maryland and Virginia.

I'm not sure where the 38th parallel in the US is, although I have heard that the 38th parallel in Korea is the Demilitarized Zone.

[Leejnd]

If we criticize divers who post onthis Thread, we can create a disincentive, a disincentive to admit errors or to post with complete truthfulness. This is particualrly true with new divers who post.

I have seen new divers get attacked on this Thread. They admit admit errors and then they're criticized. Some of it is just bullying.

If this didn't happen, it wouldn't be Scubaboard! :cool2: This place is famous for vicious eviscerations (methinks I'm over-using that word) of new divers - or any diver that has the cajones to actually describe anything that he does in relation to diving. Any time a diver is feeling a bit overconfident and needs to be knocked down a peg or two, and reminded that he is doing everything wrong and is inevitably going to DIE, this is the right place to come.


I'm not sure where the 38th parallel in the US is, although I have heard that the 38th parallel in Korea is the demilitarized Zone.

A disambiguation of the term "38th parallel." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/38th_parallel)

(Sorry...getting carried away with wiki...) ;)

Editing to add...HEY! Wouldn't the term "Vicious Eviscerations" be a great name for a rock band???

[Valhalla]

If we criticize divers who post onthis Thread, we can create a disincentive, a disincentive to admit errors or to post with complete truthfulness. This is particualrly true with new divers who post.

I have seen new divers get attacked on this Thread. They admit admit errors and then they're criticized. Some of it is just bullying.

True. The treatment of new posters on this forum I think you were saying is borderline criminal in my opionion. It was good of you to admonish abaco24. I did not criticize that effort. I just thought it funny you were accessing and using his profile information when you do not offer any in return. I will not lose any sleep over the subject, I can promise you!

[openmindOW]

Thank you, Valhalla.

[Valhalla]

A disambiguation of the term "38th parallel." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/38th_parallel)

I actually looked up the latitudes in the USA for Virginia and had the choice of 36-39 parallel and being a student of history had to choose the 38th.

Editing to add...HEY! Wouldn't the term "Vicious Eviscerations" be a great name for a rock band???

Not if today's youth had to spell it. The rock band would starve! :D

[scubafanatic]

If this didn't happen, it wouldn't be Scubaboard! :cool2: This place is famous for vicious eviscerations (methinks I'm over-using that word) of new divers - or any diver that has the cajones to actually describe anything that he does in relation to diving. Any time a diver is feeling a bit overconfident and needs to be knocked down a peg or two, and reminded that he is doing everything wrong and is inevitably going to DIE, this is the right place to come.



A disambiguation of the term "38th parallel." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/38th_parallel)

(Sorry...getting carried away with wiki...) ;)

Editing to add...HEY! Wouldn't the term "Vicious Eviscerations" be a great name for a rock band???

...Lee Anne, you're not quite correct about SB being 'THE' place to come to be knocked down a peg or too.....thank your lucky stars you haven't posted this over on any of the 'tech' diving oriented boards (thedecostop.com plus some other ones I can think of) ......trust me on this, if you'd posted over there, you'd be off whimpering over in a corner somewhere and we'd never get you out of your shell ever again! :)

.....I'm on your side here, I support your decision, it was a tough judgement call that any serious diver would have struggled with...you pushed the envelope a bit, perhaps trusted the dive op a bit too much, and it bit you, unfortunately....but I could certainly see myself rolling those very same dice given your specific circumstances.

...now about rental gear, (and yes, I know you weren't on a dedicated dive trip and faced severe weight limits) I actually design/custom build a lot of my own scuba gear...'cause I'm an extreme perfectionist and WAY anal about my gear...and I will NOT go to a dive location where I HAVE to rent the local gear....I value my life too highly to rely on flea-bag 3rd-world thrashed gear....and I know there are some remote places I will NEVER see because the weight restrictions are too severe for me to bring my own stuff....so be it!!!

...I've taken some ribbing, both here on SB and while diving about being 'Gadget Guy' and going overboard with spares and having really nice gear ...but then again, I'm usually the guy people approach with gear questions...to do field repairs on broken gear...supply spare parts/reg sets/etc. ....so I'm vindicated pretty frequently! :D

Karl

[Valhalla]

No problem, D.

Mid-Atlantic East Coast. I dive Maryland and Virginia.

I'm not sure where the 38th parallel in the US is, although I have heard that the 38th parallel in Korea is the Demilitarized Zone.

I missed this post. Yeah, as my prior post indicates I checked the latitude for Virginia due to its mid-country status and the fact that I have family there. Check out your hometown latitude. For all you/we know you can walk half way (straight) around the world in either direction and be smack-dab in the middle of the world's largest mine field (Demilitarized Zone). :D

[Abaco24]

I would like to offer my sincere apologies to the OP. My attempt to tie the miserable dive shop that put you at risk with Darwin and the Galapagos Islands failed miserably. As we never mix drinking and diving, so should I have not mixed martinis with the SB forum. I meant no malace and hope you will accept my apology for my wayward errors and comments. AB

[Leejnd]

Thank you. Apology accepted. Sometimes the things we post in message boards don't come out the way we mean them...sounds like that's what happened here. As they used to say on "Ally McBeal"...bygones. :)

[Valhalla]

I would like to offer my sincere apologies to the OP. My attempt to tie the miserable dive shop that put you at risk with Darwin and the Galapagos Islands failed miserably. As we never mix drinking and diving, so should I have not mixed martinis with the SB forum. I meant no malace and hope you will accept my apology for my wayward errors and comments. AB


:thumb:

[Leejnd]

I saw this line posted on another message board once, and it stuck with me:

Friends don't let friends post drunk.

:D

(Just kidding around, Abaco...thanks for coming back and straightening things out!)

[lemon]

Hey Leeanne, Thanks for posting and i'm very glad to hear that you escaped to tell the tale.

By any chance did you have a snorkel with you or do you think it might have helped? (i didn't read the whole thread so apologies if this was covered.) I never dive with mine but I guess it's a thought.

I was in the galapagos earlier last month and a diver on-board my liveaboard had multiple gear related issues with his rental gear. One dive the tank cam strap buckle completely failed on him with no way to fix underwater. On the very next dive he realized the replacement BCD he was given also had an air leak and wouldn't hold air. Both of those dives were at Darwin. He handled them well but I was beginning to wonder when his next failure was going to occur.

[Leejnd]

Lemon - I did address the snorkel issue earlier....here's the post:


In this case, a snorkel probably wouldn't have helped because of the wild washing machine surface...the waves were slapping me in the face and were way higher than my snorkel would have been. I think a snorkel would have just filled up with water and made it worse. I did have my own mask with me...and it had no snorkel attached. I stopped diving with a snorkel because I do a lot of beach dives at home, and surf entries can cause a snorkel to rip your mask off your face.

[openmindOW]

I would like to offer my sincere apologies to the OP. My attempt to tie the miserable dive shop that put you at risk with Darwin and the Galapagos Islands failed miserably. As we never mix drinking and diving, so should I have not mixed martinis with the SB forum. I meant no malace and hope you will accept my apology for my wayward errors and comments. AB

That is a decent and honorable thing to say, Abaco. Thank you.

[Abaco24]

As I have aged, I've learned you have to face your demons, learn from the mistake and make amends to those you offended. I'm glad Ann has been so gracious.

Now before I start singing Kum ba ya can we get back to her post!!!

PS - I also "turned myself RED" since this site has provided a wealth of information for me as a diver of the 70's. It has provided me in a short amount of time friends, connections, and dive site/equipment information from actual divers worldwide.

Better feedback than trip advisor since we're all divers here.

So I challenge you............(click on your name, look to the left margin)

Turn yourself red for $40 a year or $3.33 cents per month, if this site has helped you in any capacity. Isn't one question answered worth $3.33 cents a month at our sports actual rates? That's not even a plastic safety whistle!!

[Abaco24]

It's OK if you post after this, I don't work for SB. Just thought you could spare some change for SB and support them for all the answers they provide.

Please no more mobs for me:angrymob:and the French :guillotine: again.

AB - "I am not an animal........."

[Valhalla]

It's OK if you post after this, I don't work for SB. Just thought you could spare some change for SB and support them for all the answers they provide.

Please no more mobs for me:angrymob:and the French :guillotine: again.

AB - "I am not an animal........."

With all the knowledge that I have gained from participating on SB I came to the same conclusion many months with regard to making a contribution. Psssst, actually I was just hoping NetDoc (alumni) would buy another UF Gator shirt with the money...:D

[EvaL]

LeeAnn,
Thanks for posting in such detail and answering and updating with so many posts after that.
I'm very thankful your BCD didn't blow out while you were at depth at Gordon Rocks and you didn't panic when you were OOA.
I know you've learned your lesson (I've learned mine from just reading this thread). From now on, I will bring my own gear, otherwise it's no diving. Another point to note: many dive magazines and liveaboards indicate the diving in the Galapagos is advanced - all the more important to have your own, reliable gear.
Regarding imperial to metric weight conversion - this might be something to put in your dive log book if you can't remember. If you'll be traveling a lot, especially to Asia, Australia, Europe or Mideast to dive, you'll soon need to figure this out again. For example, I use 12 pounds or 5 kg in 1mm fullsuit, 16 pounds (or 7kg) in 3mm. These go into my log book which I bring to the dive.
The only thing I would have decided to do differently might be the 2nd day. Given I wasn't there to experience what happened, but for diving on the second day (Gordon Rocks), the facts you wrote are: it's a new, advanced dive + questionable gear (which appeared unchanged from previous day) + divemaster who was looking after several newbies, and your buddy/hubby sitting it out. And after the previous day's experience, I think I would have sat that one out, maybe just snorkel (if there's much to see on the surface).
I look at it this way - Diving is inherently a dangerous sport (the diver is basically relying on a foreign life support), so it is important we analyze our actions and try to come up with solutions or things which could have been done better, if the unexpected happens (which you did very well). Hence, thank you, thank you for sharing this. Happy diving!

[Leejnd]

Well garsh, EvaL, thanks for all the thanks! :) Just to clarify a couple things: no, there is no snorkeling at Gordon Rocks. It's a deep dive location, and the whole point really is to see the hammerhead sharks that hang out there. You can't snorkel anyway, because of the washing machine surface. As was discussed in detail earlier in this thread, clearly my decision to go on day 2 was a questionable one...which, well, to be perfectly honest, I kinda regret...and kinda don't. I mean, I got to see hammerhead sharks! But I'm sure I would regret it a LOT more (or my loved ones would anyway!) if I hadn't had a good outcome from that bad BCD.

I know I should come out and say that I regret doing it. I should say that. I know it. But dammit, I saw hammerhead sharks! Still, I shouldn't have done the dives. (But I saw hammerhead sharks!) ;) Ahhh, it's a dilemma.

Anyway, re the logbook and noting my weight...funny you should mention that, which is actually a great lesson-learned from this incident - probably the LAST lesson to be learned from it! ;) I did actually note my weight in kilos during my dives in Bali, in which I was wearing similar gear (5 mil wetsuit etc). But wouldn't you know it, I lost the log book! I have a new one, starting with dive #120 (I'm now up in the 150's) but I don't have any dives logged in which I was wearing kilos. And I didn't note it from my Galapagos dives either -- there was so much going on, I never did get the number of kilos I was wearing clarified...which annoys me.

Guess I'll have to take another trip somewhere where they use the metric system! :D

[Herk_Man]

Editing to add...HEY! Wouldn't the term "Vicious Eviscerations" be a great name for a rock band???

I like "Sucking Chest Wound" or "Protruding Eye Injury"

Things we learn to treat in military survival training. But really just awesome rock band names.

[Herk_Man]

With all the knowledge that I have gained from participating on SB I came to the same conclusion many months with regard to making a contribution. Psssst, actually I was just hoping NetDoc (alumni) would buy another UF Gator shirt with the money...:D

I will do so at some point but first I have to recover from the sticker shock of my Bonaire trip for my family. Ouch!

[Herk_Man]

Guess I'll have to take another trip somewhere where they use the metric system! :D

It's easy. 2.2lb/Kg

U really only have 2 remember 1 number, 2, and use it 2 times. 2.2

U rn't going 2 forget now, r u?

:crafty: