Is lowering the age of Scouts for SCUBA Diving a good idea?

[KJackson60]

It has been reported on this web site that the BSA is going to lower the age that Boy Scouts can participate in SCUBA Diving as part of Troop programing. The current age is 14 and will be lowered to 12 or 11 depending on when a youth joins a Troop. The reason for this is to bring the age requirement for earning the new SCUBA Merit Badge in line with all of the other Merit Badges.

I am very happy that we have a SCUBA Merit Badge and I will be signing up as a counselor. My question is the advisability of opening up what has been up to now a "High Adventure" activity to anyone who thinks they want to try this. When it was classified as "High Adventure" there where limiting factors as to who could participate. A youth needed to be First Class, of the proper age, pass a Class 3 medical check and demonstrate an adequate level of physical and emotional development to be allowed to participate in this activity.

With the changes as I understand them they will no longer have to meet any of these requirements. This puts the adult leaders who are responsible for these youth on these outings in a difficult position. They could possibly have a group of 12-13 year old Tenderfoot scouts that they are trying to keep tabs on through out the entire dive process. So we will need more adult assistance on the surface with gearing up, additional adult divers to help keep track of these kids underwater, etc.

I am not saying that children of this age can not dive. There a certainly many out there that do, and do well, with mom or dad. My concern is the fact that up to now each youth was expected to have the ability to participate in a self contained manner eg. handle equipment, focus on briefings/instruction, and be a fully capable dive buddy, even in an emergency involving an adult. Not all 14 year olds can do this, how many 12 year olds can?

OK, I have rambled long enough. Please respond with your thoughts on this.

[T23]

Purportedly there are revisions to the GTSS coming in terms of the existing language as pertains to SCUBA. If those revisions have been published I haven't heard about them to date nor have I had an opportunity to read them. So to a certain extent the only thing we can focus on tangibly for discussion purposes at this point are the merit badge pamphle, what it states, and the scope of "C" card.

For purposes of BSA advancement policy ANY registered Boy Scout can work on ANY merit badge at any time. Boys can be a Boy Scout if they meet the other criteria as young as age 10, though I fully recognize most join at age 11. So we really do have to look at this issue within the context of 10-14 year olds in terms of any changes.

One of the requirements to earn the SCUBA merit badge is to also earn the Swimming merit badge. Not all 10 year old scouts can pass the Swimming merit badge and may not also be able to pass the swimming test given at the start of an open water course. If they do pass both then they have demonstrated surface swimming abilities that are acceptable to both BSA and the certifying agency.

SCUBA skill evaluations are left to the judgment of the certifying agency instructor. Neither the BSA nor the SCUBA Merit Badge counselor (assuming the counselor is not also the SCUBA instructor) have a direct role in certifying scouts as open water divers.

The buddy system used widely throughout scouting in many activities, including aquatics, extends into SCUBA diving. All SCUBA divers, regardless of age, when diving within the BSA program need to follow the buddy system. Certified SCUBA divers age 15 and older have full open water credentials and can be each others buddy. However Scouts 15 or older can not be a buddy to a Scout who is younger than 15. Certified SCUBA divers age 10-14, regardless of certification level, are certified as Junior divers and have restrictions in terms of depth and supervision. Each Junior diver is required to dive with either a certified parent or instructor. That means each buddy pair that involves a 10-14 year old must be matched up with either a certified parent or a certified instructor during regular, non-training dive activities.

At this point in time it appears from what I have seen reported that the vast majority of SCUBA diving within the BSA program takes place in Venturing units. It is hard to say at this point what kind of changes we will see in terms of interest with SCUBA in Boy Scout troops with these changes. In general, because of the cost, time, training, equipment, etc IMO there will probably be some pockets of dedicated scouts and scouters who band together around common interest and love for diving. In units where leaders are not divers themselves it might be somewhat of an uphill struggle for scouts to get something going and I don't think we are going to see someone suggesting SCUBA in the same manner as some other forms of new high adventure activities are suggested mostly because of the logistics involved.

[mmmeenehan]

Per the revised BSA scuba policy (see previous thread for the revised policy) all scout scuba activities must be still done under the direct supervision of a dive professional (Divemaster or higher). So the adult scout leaders are not the ones who must "keep tabs on [the scouts] through out the entire dive process". As T23 points out, the restrictions on junior divers also means that they must dive with an adult.

Just because the scouts are allowed to enroll in the (Junior) OW certification course doesn't mean that they have the skills (or maturity) to complete the course (a req of the MB).

[Diver Lori]

My dive buddy and co-instructor has been a high adventure advisor for a local BSA troop for a very long time......decades. He is a highly experienced outdoorsman and is the primary instructor for the boys with regards to outdoor skills at the high adventure age group level.

Due to his experience over the years with taking scouts into the wilderness, he has set a minimum age level for specific trips; along with a certain rank and badge requirement for those specific trips.

Based on all of his experience, his feeling is the underwater world is also wilderness and has set 15 as the minimum age limit for his acceptance of scuba students in the past. Now, we haven't had a change to discuss the new BSA merit badge for scuba, but my best guess that I would wager in Vegas is.....his criteria would not change.

If his troop actively pursues the BSA Scuba merit badge, they will most likely do so without his assistance or blessing.

[Chugwhump]

This is such an obvious answer in my very humble opinion.

I will use myself as an example.
I got my BASIC YMCA Certification when I was 12 (1977).
Back then you had to actually work equations with Boyle's law, Dalton's law, Martini's law...and other blah blah blah gas laws.
It was tough for a regular kid and some adults also.
I grew up in SE Florida, pretty close to the beach.
We snorkled like maniacs for years before we were allowed to do Scuba training.
I was then and am still now, an excellent swimmer.
All that being said, not every 10 year old is ready for the Scuba merit badge.
Not every 40 year old is either.
I am glad to see here that there are some preliminay quals before we let the kids into the pool, so to speak.
I like the whole mandatory DM/Pro supervision.
My son will be 10 this December.
As he grew up around divers, the ocean, boats, and is a fish, gets good grades, (but sucks at keeping his room clean) and is a good kid that listens to directions, and is level headed, I am going to let him take his dive lessons with a "Kid SCUBA Training Specialist".
I figure that diving next to me and my regular buddies on shorter duration "Baby Dives" meaning 30' or less....well after he figures out 6' in the pool, and 12' off of the beach on a calm day, he will be fine.
But he still needs to do the book work, dedicate himself, and try to keep his room clean.
I think it really depends on the kid, and I think just about everyone else does also.

Chug

[lowviz]

..........I think it really depends on the kid, and I think just about everyone else does also.

Chug

-don't remove the opportunity, make it strict, but don't remove it.

Stay safe.

[mmmeenehan]

Purportedly there are revisions to the GTSS coming in terms of the existing language as pertains to SCUBA. If those revisions have been published I haven't heard about them to date nor have I had an opportunity to read them.

The revised BSA Scuba has been incorporated into the online version of the GTSS (available at Guide to Safe Scouting (http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/gss.aspx)) Who knows when it will make it into printed versions...

[TwoBitTxn]

You all keep talking about 10 y/o kids taking the class. In order to join you must be 10 1/2 AND through the fifth grade or 11 y/o. I don't see much difference between a 10 y/o and a 11 y/o but that's just me.

I also think the troop leaders need to exercise judgement. Maybe that's asking alot, but the younger kids need to be working on other stuff first. I would like to see a series of minimum requirements like swimming and possibly lifesaving merit badges before earning SCUBA.

[mmmeenehan]

I would like to see a series of minimum requirements like swimming

Having the swimming merit badge IS a requirement for new scuba merit badge. Not a prereq, but is required before working on scuba mb reqs 3-6 "Before completing requirements 3 through 6, earn the Swimming merit badge."

[TxIceDiver]

I am scuba instructor and now also a scuba MB counselor. I have been teaching kids and adults to dive for several years ago and here are some of my personal observations and opinions.

My certification agency allows me to certify kids as young as 10 to dive. Personally, I find it hit or miss if the 10-12 year old kids are actually mature enough and ready for dive classes, most 10-11 year old's aren't, though I have had a few do really well. Usually, between the swim test, the book work and the first pool session, I can tell pretty quickly who is ready and who isn't. I personally would have preferred that the minimum certification age would have been left at 12. I find that the 12-13+ kids rarely have problems that we can't overcome and many times perform better than the adults in the water. (mask clearing can be a challenge) I taught both of my kids to dive when they were 13 and both did very well. (my son could jump in the pool with just a mask, i.e. no scuba, only breath hold, and clear his mask and then surface on a single breath, and this was before I taught him to dive at 13)

The junior certifications (under 15) do have depth limitations and they must dive with an adult. Preferably their parent or a dive professional.

As far as the BSA goes, they have written the Scuba MB requirements well enough that I think that you will find in practice that most of the younger kids won't be able to meet the requirements easily, and those that can will actually be well behaved, up for the challenge and ready to dive. (I know if I am their instructor, they will be well prepared, cause I am cranky old hardtail). And the older boys will do really well.


If we are planning a dive/camping outing. I would be very careful on picking the location and activities to make sure that they were age and skill level appropriate. I would also very keenly evaluate the dive conditions and know the diving abilities of each scout before deciding what the ratios of kids to adults would be (I would prefer to have DM's, though an experienced adult will work, I have non-professional dive buddies that have 500+ dives) In TX we have a lot of mud hole diving, so conditions and visibility can really vary. Ideally, there would be 1 adult per scout buddy team. Especially if the group is younger. As the boy get older (14+) or have more experience, the ratio can go up. (say 4-6 per DM depending upon conditions).

One other thing to consider in the whole scheme of things is the cost and the logistics of diving. The amount of gear that is required is outstanding. I think that a lot of troops probably won't be able afford to go. When I teach a class of six, i generally haul most of the gear for the class to the pool and the lake, it takes up most of the room in my trailer, and if we camp, then my SUV is full too. I have bent several trailer axles by hauling to much dive gear.

Well, I could ramble on for hours about this, but i would probably bore everyone. So thank you for your time.

[KJackson60]

There have been some great responses to this question and I would like to thank everyone for their input.:D

It seems the only changes made to the guide lines for participation in a SCUBA program as outlined in the Guide To Safe Scouting (revised) is the dropping of the age and rank requirements needed for a youth to participate in a troop conducted scuba outing. They no longer need to be 14 and First Class. Other than some amplification of the old guide lines I don't see much different. The dropping of these two qualifications IMO has made it more difficult to determine the suitability of a youth to successfully participate in this program. As an adult leader you have fewer opportunities to observe the youth in group situations and observe them as they "problem solve" if they are allowed to do SCUBA at a younger age.

I agree that the instructors will probably help weed out the scouts incapable of safely participating in this sport. However, just because a youth can pass the tests and do the skills to the instructors satisfaction does not mean the youth is mature enough to follow through with those skills on actual dives. A case in point. I have a youth who did wonderfully with the academics and in the dive portions of the class. He however is not a good diver as he does not stay with his buddy or group, tends to ascend to fast and is not attentive during briefings. He is not diving with the group any more as he takes so much watching that I can not keep an eye on the rest of them.

We do use Dive Masters as this is required in the Guide Lines For Safe Scouting and it is prudent to have someone present on the dive that has better emergency training than I do. But, just because we have a Dive Master does not lessen the Scouters responsibility for the youth. I would feel very negligent in my duties if I did not accompany my boys on their dives. By accompanying them I act as the second and sometimes third set of of adult eyes. I am also the buddy for any Jr. OW divers we may have on the outing. I also tend to act as "sweeper", that is I follow the group and "sweep up" anyone who is lagging behind or gets separated from the group. The Dive Masters can not see everything. Especially in the limited viz we have here in the mid-west. Nor can I expect them to be aware of each boys idiosyncrasies. He/she just does not have the time to get to know them.

I do have a complaint of sorts with Dive Masters. All of them to date want to act as underwater tour guides and not as underwater mentors. What I mean by this is that I would like the Dive Masters to actively engage the scouts in conducting the dive, not just following along. Encourage them to do the navigation, have them plan the depth(s), length and the surface interval of the dive(s). If they make a mistake correct them certainly but allow them the practice of the skills they learned in their OW/AOW courses. Otherwise they will never progress beyond entry level divers, and that would be a shame.

I just don't think it is appropriate to add a youth or youths into a diving situation until they have demonstrated the maturity and physical capabilities needed to dive with a buddy safely. A youth needs to participate in a Troops program over an extended period of time and attain a measurable level of self reliance and confidence. This allows Scouters ample time to observe and council them. It is only through this relationship that an accurate assessment of the youths readiness for diving can be formed.

That's my opinion for what it is worth.:cool2:

[mmmeenehan]

From the PADI Divemaster duties list:
8. Generally supervise both training and nontraining-related activities by assisting divers and student divers in the planning, organizing and direction of dives.

Sounds like your DMs are DOING rather than ASSISTING.

Most OWC divers are used to being pampered by their DMs. At most dive resort locations the DMs are working for tips so the more they do for divers, the better the tips. I'd think that a few words to your DMs before your dives might help them realize that your scouts want to practice what they learned in their course rather than have the DM do it for them (which is what they are used to).

[T23]

You all keep talking about 10 y/o kids taking the class. In order to join you must be 10 1/2 AND through the fifth grade or 11 y/o.

Just to clarify there are currently three different criteria for Boy Scout membership:
1. be at least 10 years old and have completed the 5th grade, or
2. be at least 11 years old, or
3. be at least 10 years old and have earned Arrow of Light.

Granted it is kind of rare, but there are some situations where a boy who is barely 10 years old may have completed 5th grade by having been pushed ahead a grade or where they may have worked hard and fast in 4th grade and earned their Arrow of Light.

So, if a boy is at least 10 and has earned his Arrow of Light he is eligible to immediately bridge over to Boy Scouts... yep, right there, on the spot, on the very day he is signed off on the last requirement if he chooses. Clearly many boys do not do this nor is this widely advertised in terms of Blue and Gold ceremonies and Arrow of Light ceremonies which tend to be the more traditional venues and time of year most Cub Scouts bridge over to Boy Scouts.

Per national advancement policy any scout is eligible to work on any merit badge. Clearly scout age had to be at least one of the topics of discussion in terms of the SCUBA merit badge being approved, not to mention the past history of SCUBA policy within the BSA.

The SCUBA merit badge isn't something that is going to be easily or quickly earned for most scouts. This is probably going to end up being one of the more difficult merit badges for many boys. Sure, some will have what it takes to earn it at age 10 and others might not be able to do it until several years later. In general, I don't think this is going to be much different from what most SCUBA instructors are seeing in terms of 10 year old boys who want to dive. Some boys take to it like a fish and some have to keep working at it. In the end though it really is going to be up to the SCUBA instructor to determine when or if a boy has been able to complete the certification requirements.

Those that are good enough or persistent enough to receive certification hopefully will then have enough opportunities to keep on diving that it will become a favorite past time. Hopefully some of those opportunities will be through scouting!

[rligon]

I'm not sure about the other agencies, but here are the PADI rules:
Junior Open Water Divers ages 10-11 years old must dive with a PADI Professional or certified parent/guardian. Dives must not exceed 12 metres /40 feet.
Junior Open Water Divers ages 12-14 years old must dive with a certified adult.
Maybe I'm just optimistic, but I had always regarded this (and will continue to do so) as EACH youth must be accompanied by an adult meeting the requirements, who will serve as the buddy for that individual youth. Maybe the PADI instructor manuals spell this out more clearly?

[rligon]

Just reread the new GSS policy, a one-to-one ratio is mandated for scouts under 15:

Each diver under 15 years of age must have an adult buddy certified as an open-water diver who is either the junior diver's parent or an adult approved by the parent
Additional divemasters or instructors are present to maintain a ratio of one trained supervisor to four buddy pairs (eight divers) containing one to four divers under 15 years of age.

[NetDoc]

I can live with those rules.

[GNX Guy]

We have 2 SCUBA MB counslors in our council as of now. Myself and the dive instructor that is the Chartered Org Rep for the SCUBA Ship that I am the Skipper for.

I'm happy to say that we have 2 scouts in our council that have completed the SCUBA MB this past week. Both were already Jr. OWC. My son (now 12 years old) was the 1st by completing the few extra requirements with the dive insturctor (mentioned above) that he needed to complete beyond the swimming MB and SCUBA Cert requirements listed in the MB book. I, this past Sunday finished up the requirements with a scout from my troop.

Joe

[rligon]

Congrats to both of them! :D

[tight rope walker]

I can only use myself as an example. I started air breathing in 1967. I was 13 at the time and about 5' 9'' tall. Yep I was a big kid. We touched very breifly on gas theorys, and I personally believe, that at that age that was a good call. Don't get me wrong, we were taught safety, but at 13, I could have cared less about Boyle, Bert, Haldane, and the like. Butttttttttt there was a tremendous effort placed on physical conditioning. In my time I did not have a bc of any type, nor did I have a spg. My white stagg reg, as the pressure decreased became impossible to breath on. I was not restricted to depth, But I had to always dive with an adult. As I got older, I learned more about theorys, and to be honest, at that point I was interested in them.

But diving equipment has come along way, and in reality it has made diving alot easier and safer. But no matter the gear, I believe you still have to be mentally and physically compotent. And we all know, this happens to differant people at differant ages. So if after an assesment, the potental candidate passess, that's all that should matter regardless of age.

Now, the bigger question to me is, given the state of this crazy world we live in....what's going to happen when little Johnny runs home to his folks, Mr. and Mrs. important, crying that he, unlike his buddys, can't be a diver.

I wouldn't want to be that divemaster/instuctor when that mercedes pulls up your driveway.

[KJackson60]

After some consideration and conversation with the other diving adults in our Troop here is what we decided. For a youth to participate in the Troops SCUBA program they must be First Class. Have Scoutmaster approval. Have the dive outing leaders approval. Have earned the Swimming Merit Badge or the Life Saving Merit Badge. We will of course conform to the regulations in the Guide to Safe Scouting and PADI's guidelines regarding Jr. Open Water/Jr. Advanced Open Water divers.

We decided on these guidelines as our program goes beyond earning the SCUBA Merit Badge or Open Water Cert. We wanted to make sure that the youth who are participating in our program are ready physically, mentally and emotionally.

By mandating First Class and one of the two Merit Badges named above we feel that we will have had adequate opportunities to observe and counsel the interested youth. While we we don't want to exclude anyone it is important that everyone who is participating is able to dive safely and be a good dive buddy.

[KJackson60]

[/QUOTE]Now, the bigger question to me is, given the state of this crazy world we live in....what's going to happen when little Johnny runs home to his folks, Mr. and Mrs. important, crying that he, unlike his buddys, can't be a diver.

I wouldn't want to be that divemaster/instuctor when that mercedes pulls up your driveway.[/QUOTE]

Being a Scoutmaster, I have had to turn scouts down who wanted to participate in certain High Adventure activities that they were not ready for. The parents in all of these instances have been very understanding and almost all have agreed with the assessments regarding their sons.

[tight rope walker]

I would like to see the scouts incorporate a tendors badge. Perhaps if a child is interested in diving, but for one reason or another he can't, he could always be a dive tendor. Atleast in this way, he could still be involved in the diving process. He could accompany the divers to a meet and help them with thier gear. Atleast he could still belong. This could also be a childs first exposure to diving.

I am not going to tell you the importance of a tender in diving, as when I need one, he has my life in his hands. I am sure it could be toned down for a childs perspective.

Maybe after earning his tender badge, and if he meets the requirements, he can go on to being a diver. But if not, he can still remain a tender.

I hope you do not mind me making a suggestion.

[KJackson60]

tight rope walker
I absolutely don't mind your input! I would be the last person to suggest that I have all of the answers! We do offer the non diver scouts the option of going with us on our outings to assist with the lugging of gear and equipping the divers. They also have the option of snorkeling while we dive. Because they see this as "boring" or as something less than what the divers are doing we don't get any takers on our offers.

We do have a LDS that offers a group Introduction to SCUBA experience for a very affordable price. It has always been very well attended. The scouts have a blast with it whether certified or not.

[tight rope walker]

Thank you for your reply. I quess what I am suggesting is the badge process. It would be worn like a badge of honor. This would be the starting point for a young person. The apprentice who accompanies the journeyman on these adventures would atleast get some recognition. I'm probaly saying this the wrong way, and it's more than likely I am in the wrong forum.

But the young candidate would start his career as a diving tendor, and after a simple test, would be issued a tendor badge, in recognition of his achievement.

Believe me, I carried alot of gear for my dad and his partner, and all I got was," What's taking you so long???!!!". HA HA HA!

[Twistedarts]

It has been reported on this web site that the BSA is going to lower the age that Boy Scouts <snip>

this may or may not help but, i was 12 in 1977 when i first certed under NASDS. at that time there was little to no safety equipment and tanks were as big as me. the logic being at the time I guess that I could do the swim stuff and I had a grasp of the "science" behind it. A horse collar and hard pack, ahh the good ole' days... But I digress...

I guess my point is, if it was allright then, what has changed? Other than better gear, a better understanding of the dynamics involved, and more people willing to mentor or train, if the youth is up to it, then why not?

[tight rope walker]

this may or may not help but, i was 12 in 1977 when i first certed under NASDS. at that time there was little to no safety equipment and tanks were as big as me. the logic being at the time I guess that I could do the swim stuff and I had a grasp of the "science" behind it. A horse collar and hard pack, ahh the good ole' days... But I digress...

I guess my point is, if it was allright then, what has changed? Other than better gear, a better understanding of the dynamics involved, and more people willing to mentor or train, if the youth is up to it, then why not?

I agree whole heartedly. What I am proposing is something prior to actually diving. And what happens say, for one reason or another, the child cannot dive. One of the biggest heart breaks in my life was finding out, that due to an ear problem, my son could not dive. Much to the dismay of his mother, I'm working on my grandson now. He's only five, and the time I have spent with him I know this would encourage him towards diving.:)

[Twistedarts]

I agree whole heartedly. What I am proposing is something prior to actually diving. And what happens say, for one reason or another, the child cannot dive. One of the biggest heart breaks in my life was finding out, that due to an ear problem, my son could not dive. Much to the dismay of his mother, I'm working on my grandson now. He's only five, and the time I have spent with him I know this would encourage him towards diving.:)

Sorry to hear about the ear. depending on the problem, it may not be a dealbreaker. as to the scout badge, there are the padi seals, maybe some sort of badge where the child demonstrates a familiarity with the gear and has basic snorkeling skills. but it would also be kinda tough on the little guys being around all the gear and such and not being able to use it. would frustrate the heck out of me.

[tight rope walker]

Once again, I agree, I quess at that point you would have to somehow focus on how very important being a tender is. I know in my case, under certain circumstances, my life is in my tenders hands. I know kids like badges ( hell seems like alot of adults nowadays like them too ), and maybe it would keep thier interest. One thing is for certain, it wouldn't hurt.

Also, thanks for clarifying about the cement shoes. I belong to a very large labor organization, and they were always asking me about my foot size. Now I find out, that, they were just trying to help. HA HA HA!

Happy holidays

[KJackson60]

Some of the posts to this thread seem to think my objection to eliminating an age limit for scout participation in scuba diving was due to the idea that I didn't think they could do it. I know that there are many young people who do dive at an early age and are very successful at it. I have two concerns. 1) Having enough time to evaluate a youth through other activities to see where they are as far as their capabilities. 2) Due to the type of program we run the scouts have to be pretty self sufficient. We do not have the luxury, at least at this time, of one on one adult supervision for each scout. So, they need to be old enough and capable enough to dive with another scout. In addition, our initial open water certification outing is a week long camping experience with dive training. I want boys who will not have home sickness issues and can be a functioning member of the patrol. This takes experience as a scout with the other activities we do.

There is also the "problem" that most of the scouts currently in our dive program do not have a parent who dives. So for them to go diving at all means they are diving with us. And to dive with us means for the most part having a youth buddy. The PADI and GSS guidelines actually make it very difficult for a younger diver to participate in a scout program so some of my concern is really over blown.

Young people, as young as 10, do dive and do so very successfully. But can they dive with out their parent(s)? As a buddy to another 10-11 year old? How about 13-14 year old? I don't know. Depends on the youth. I would just like the time to be able evaluate that youth on camp outs and other outings to see where they are developmentally.

[moneysavr]

Young people, as young as 10, do dive and do so very successfully. But can they dive with out their parent(s)?
( No) 10 YO neeeds a qualified dive instuctor or parent to dive with PADI Jr. diver C card

[KJackson60]

That is correct although I believe the exact wording is "Dive Professional" so it includes Dive Masters. 12-14 YO only need to be accompanied by a certified adult and may go to 60'. I have not seen what age they consider an adult. I would assume 18.

[KJackson60]

this may or may not help but, i was 12 in 1977 when i first certed under NASDS. at that time there was little to no safety equipment and tanks were as big as me. the logic being at the time I guess that I could do the swim stuff and I had a grasp of the "science" behind it. A horse collar and hard pack, ahh the good ole' days... But I digress...

I guess my point is, if it was allright then, what has changed? Other than better gear, a better understanding of the dynamics involved, and more people willing to mentor or train, if the youth is up to it, then why not?

Well, the biggest change is the liability issues. Don't cross your T's and dot your I's and something happens, the Tour Leader is in a world of hurt.:bash:

[tight rope walker]

I would humbly like to ask the following, what would be wrong, given the criteria, of the scouts addopting a tender badge program? This would be implemented prior to a scout becoming a diver, and would be a scouts initial involvement ( participant ) in diving.

I believe it could be easily implemented, easily taught, and easily adhered to.

I mean if a scout accompanies the dive master and the other diver/scouts, helps with the gear and such, why not make that very involvement something to regognise ?

And, it has no age limit.

I thank all involved for the chanch to offer a suggestion.

[KJackson60]

In regards to tight rope walkers' idea about a "Scuba Tender" program. My understanding of your suggestion is that someone other than the divers buddy assist the scout with kitting up. The divers would still do a pre-dive BWRAF check with each other and would still do their own dive planning. But having a "tender" to help with the actual kitting up would allow both divers to concentrate on their own gear preparation and not be distracted by helping their buddy with their gear.

I can see merit to this approach as long as it does not interfer with the very needed communications between dive buddies. And the diver is not allowed to become dependent on his tender for proper gear placement/installation. In other words, the diver should be directing the tender on how the diver wants his equipment arranged and not going with what ever arrangement the tender comes up with .

tight rope walker. Is this what you are thinking?:hm:

[tight rope walker]

Yes. I am not suggesting that the tender interfere between dive teams, that is not his place. What I am suggesting that, perhaps this could spark an interest in a child. He would help in carrying gear, help the divers suit up, and maybe, just maybe, his opinion would be asked once in a while. But that is it. Once my tender has rendered me ready to dive, at that point it is all me, or all me and my partner. I was just thinking this would give a child alittle regognition for his efforts. And in the event a child cannot dive, for one reason or another, he could still be involved in the diving process, providing that involvement does not interfere with the dive teams operations.

I sincerely believe that this would be an excellent starting point.

Now he starts his career as a dive tender, that carrys a badge,

What is better than to learn a hoby/career from the ground up.

I just think that those people on the groung level, go unnoticed nowadays.

So, it is for them that I speak.

Happy holidays.

[tight rope walker]

And yes ofcourse, the diver would be responsible for gearing up at best. Or personally directing hie tender at least. Remember, this is in no way shape or form reflective of a commercial relationship. To me this is more of an apprentice/journeyman relationship.

Let me ask one more question.

Who do you think would be easier to teach scuba to, A child who just entered the program, or a graduate of a tender program?

Who has more exposure to the gear, begginner or tender?

Who has atleast a basic understanding of what's going on, begginer or tendor?

I appologise as I am getting carried away.

Once again thanks to all for this oppurtunity.

[KJackson60]

This "tender" idea is definitely growing on me. I think I will propose this at our next Dive Patrol meeting to see what the diving scouts think. I don't know that the BSA would be up for a formal "tender" program as it is very few Troops/Crews that dive on a regular basis. But, you are correct, it would be easier to teach diving to an experienced tender than someone with no contact with diving at all.

I think we will use the scouts who have expressed an interest in our OW Certification outing which we do the end of July or beginning of August. They could assist with our Fun Dive outing in June. See how it goes.

[azchipka]

That is correct although I believe the exact wording is "Dive Professional" so it includes Dive Masters. 12-14 YO only need to be accompanied by a certified adult and may go to 60'. I have not seen what age they consider an adult. I would assume 18.

Max depth for Junior Open Water is 40 feet. Advanced Jr Open Water is 80'.

Divers are considered to be adult at 16 years of age.

The lowering of the BSA scuba age is in conjunction with recreational dive training standards which allow Diving Certifications at the age of 12. If the recreational dive community feels 12 is ok then there is no reason for BSA to do differently.

Note that the maturaity of the child is to be considered by the instructor to determine if the person is ready for diving.

Junior Open Water Divers must be accompanied by a Parent or Gaurdian or a Dive Professional not just any adult.

[azchipka]

As an additional note those scouts interested in getting the Merit Badge do not need to do the entire Open Water course. The Scuba Diver course meets the requirements for the BSA Merit Badge.

[DiveNav]

..... But, you are correct, it would be easier to teach diving to an experienced tender than someone with no contact with diving at all....

What about using our simulator to give them an idea of what it looks like ?

We have lot of non divers - from all over the world - playing with the sim and familiarizing themselves with physics, physiology and real gear - including dive computers - before taking the real plunge. (some of them are Boy Scouts too ;))

Just an idea

Alberto (aka eDiver)

[tight rope walker]

The scouts to me have always been a hands on organization, that's why the tender program. The potential diver is already exposed to diving within the troop.

Would you issue a badge for simulator time?

I know I am very old fashioned, and although a simulator would provide you with a visual experience, I donot believe it is the same as being able to hold something in your hand.

Now if the potential candidate wants to pursue farther, then by all means, bring in the simulator.
But this is just a dream of mine, and that is my only motivation as I am looking for nothing to gain.

Tenders have played an important role in our nations history, and in this small way we could keeep the tradiction alive.

That's another thing the scouts have taught me, like every time I go by my local post ofice and watch the postal employee take down our flag, roll it in a ball, and throw it in a bag.

One day after watching this for the last time I got out of my truck, and proceed to show this person how to fold a flag.....as was taught to me by a scout.

[KJackson60]

Max depth for Junior Open Water is 40 feet. Advanced Jr Open Water is 80'.

Divers are considered to be adult at 16 years of age.

The lowering of the BSA scuba age is in conjunction with recreational dive training standards which allow Diving Certifications at the age of 12. If the recreational dive community feels 12 is ok then there is no reason for BSA to do differently.

Note that the maturaity of the child is to be considered by the instructor to determine if the person is ready for diving.

Junior Open Water Divers must be accompanied by a Parent or Gaurdian or a Dive Professional not just any adult.

I was looking on the PADI web site and found their restrictions for Junior Open Water Divers:
"10-11 year olds must dive with a PADI Professional OR certified parent/guardian. They must not exceed 40'."
"12-14 year olds must dive with a Certified adult."

The only depth restrictions that I could find were 40' for the 10-11 year olds, 60' for Junior Open Water Divers or 100' for repetitive deep dives/130' single deep dive for Jr. AOW.

We need to have a "Dive Professional" with us when we dive as a scout group regardless of age per The Guide to safe Scouting, that does not appear to be the case for Jr. Divers outside of scouts. Your statement above seems to indicate that Jr. Divers DO need to be escorted by a Dive Professional even if not involved with Scouts. I am a little confused here. Could you please clarify?:dontknow:

[mmmeenehan]

As an additional note those scouts interested in getting the Merit Badge do not need to do the entire Open Water course. The Scuba Diver course meets the requirements for the BSA Merit Badge.

Why do you think the Scuba Diver course meets the requirements for the merit badge given the "Minimum Course Content for Open Water Diver Certification" listing on pages 5-7 of the Scuba Merit Badge book? For example, underwater navigation is listed as being part of the minimum OW course required in the merit badge book, but uw nav is not part of the PADI scuba diver course.

[T23]

azchipka,

Requirement 4 in the Scuba Merit Badge booklet states: "4. Earn an Open Water Diver Certification from a scuba organization recognized by the Boy Scouts of America scuba policy."

Regardless of any similarities in course content between Scuba Diver and Open Water Diver the requirement hasn't been met by a scout who has earning a Scuba Diver rating.