Weekend Courses

[TMHeimer]

We just did our first OW course with real students. Great experience. They will be shocked when we hit the N.S. ocean next weekend for their checkout dives. But it confirmed my opinion that there is way too much stuff to learn in 2 days. We spent 6 hours straight in the pool Sat. I'm so glad I took OW in 6 night sessions-- I would've been going nuts trying to remember all the skills all at once--not to mention the 5 straight hours of classroom they had before the pool. I guess I'm just slow. Any opinions?

[scubadiver888]

I believe it was Confucius who said:


What I hear, I forget. What I see, I remember. What I do, I understand.

The more classes you attend the better you will become at it. Even more important is actually doing the exercises. You don't have to do them with the students. Find a certified diver who wants to practice. Do the demonstration skills with them. See if they have any criticisms. Practice with your fellow DM candidates. Even better, practice with an actual DM. A good DM will work with you because the practice will help them as much as it will help you.

Personally, I also like to envision teaching the material to someone else as I study it. Teaching is a great way of learning something.

[TMHeimer]

Thanks,- I did OK myself demonstrating the skills, but what I really meant was it's a ton of material all at once for the OW students to absorb in 2 days as opposed to the 6 nights (with days in between) I had when taking OW myself. Would've seemed real hard to me to have my instructor doing skill after skill in a row and me trying to remember all of it (as well after 5 hours of classroom). Would you agree?

[scubadiver888]

I would agree. Doing it all in two days (I'm assuming this does not include open water; i.e. class and pool) without providing opportunity to practice more after certification would be a lot for many students.

My shop likes to have the accelerated class as: Friday night is a class, Saturday morning is a class, Saturday afternoon is pool, Sunday morning is class and Sunday afternoon is pool. After that the open water portion is two full days at an outdoor training facility. In addition to this we let students use the pool after they are certified just for a place to practice. Even that seems a little rushed for some students.

The most important thing we do is have the students get the book well before the class and tell them to read ahead. The idea is that they should have read the section we are covering in class before the class.

For most students this is more than enough.

[TraceMalin]

One of "tools" that I was able to employ as a student when I started my open water training back in 1982 was the technique of visualization. My PDIC instructors conducted 6 - 8 class and pool sessions in the Fall. I was invited to come to every open water class that was conducted after mine to keep my skills sharp for the open water dives that were conducted in the summer.

Classes began Tuesday evenings and ran 3 to 3.5 hours. The first thing we did upon arrival in class was to view a 20 - 30 minute video related to the skills we would be doing in the pool and the information related to the diving science we would be covering in class. Next, we would go over the homework from the previous class and hear the lecture from our instructor which lasted about an hour including Q & A.

Finally, we would go into the pool, have class for about an hour and get 20 minutes of practice time on our own to work on weaknesses with our buddies.

On the days in between classes, I ha a week to read my Jeppesen Open Water Manual and a week to visualize all the skills that we had up until that point. During the process of visualization, I spent a good many hours each week thinking about the videos I had seen, thinking about our classroom discussion, and thinking about what I learned in the pool. While I may have only had about an hour and a half in the actual water each week, I'd probably spend that much time, if not much more, daydreaming about scuba class while in high school classes, thinking about it on the school bus ride home and in all my free time. I could go back in my mind to mistakes I had made and craft the scenario over again substituting the correct procedures for tank valve breathing, buddy-breathing by sharing a stage, performing buddy breathing BCD-assisted ascents, removing and replacing my cylinder and scuba unit, and other such procedures that required a little more finesse than just sharing an additional second stage or achieving neutral buoyancy.

In addition, we were expected to return to class and do things independently with proficiency. For example, our first pool class was snorkeling and our second was the first night with scuba. We were taught to float our tanks on over our heads without touching the bottom as if we were dressing in deep water. We wopuld have to manually inflate our horsecollar BCD's, float our tanks on over our heads, clear our snorkels away from the shoulder straps as we did so, blast our snorkels clear of water and connect all of your hoses, regs, etc., in the water by touch. We weren't coddled and more could be expected of us because we had the time to think about class between classes. It was hard. There were times I would come home frustrated that a skill like buddy breathing from a single regulator with no mask while swimming didn't go well because our ascent was poor or someone swallowed water and broke into an emergency ascent to escape the mishap. But, we went back in and did iot the next week and did it better or did it well because we were thinking about it between practices.

Skill development is the result of muscle memory in the myelin created by practice honed by great coaching. This is all benefitted by time. When it is said that divers cannot perform to the level of the "old salts" it is simply because no one is giving them the time to become good in the pool and in open water, because no one believes in them ("Open water diver's are capable of ..." Or, "At the open water level, they don't need to know ...")

To this day, as a 41 year-old cave and tech instructor, I still draw from those first experiences when it comes time to choke on water, vomit, or be without gas. When those things happen now, it takes me right back to my teen years. Ah, memories!

The mind is a terrible tool to waste.

Just as we teach students, "Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast," instructors, and more importantly training agencies, shops, resorts, and the RSTC, would do well to remember that the same applies to the learning process.

[scubadiver888]

That was an excellent post Trace. Today students seem to want to slip diving in between the other things in there life. Shops still do the 6 week course but many students seem to want to get it done over one weekend. There is also a push to do the e-learning and doing the work online. My shop is really resistant to this. To us, diving is a social activity. The questions students ask and the general chitchat adds to the learning. Doing it alone, at home via a computer just seems wrong.

If you try and convince them that it is not a race and they'll do better if they just take their time, they go to the next dive shop. The approach now is to get students hooked. Some shops stop at that point. I glad that my shop will give them the weekend course but encourages them to come back after being certified to 'practice'.

[Scott]

We spent 6 hours straight in the pool Sat. I'm so glad I took OW in 6 night sessions-- I would've been going nuts trying to remember all the skills all at once--not to mention the 5 straight hours of classroom they had before the pool.
Am I understanding correctly that they had an 11 hour day? That is nuts.

[oly5050user]

I have done many of the weekend classes and yes there is alot going on in those 3 days.Our schedule is Friday night 7 to 11pm ( 1 session classroom and pool)--Saturday 9-5pm( 2 classroom sessions and 2 pool sessions) and Sunday 9 to 5 (2 classroom sessions and 2 pool) ...usually enough to get everything done IF students are prepared before class.By prepared I mean having watched video-read text and completed all knowledge reviews before class.Class is kept small -anywhere from 2 to 6 people.Pool is the next room from the classroom so no time is wasted getting to it.For those students who do not "get it" we offer for them to come in another time and work with them
I do not hold up the class for those that are slow to learn.That is a total of 20 hours of training.Almost 1/2 of that time is in the pool.Not much different time wise if this was a 6 week course.Comes out to the same total hrs.Only difference is that the student has to apply themselves and get their part done before coming to class..

[scubadiver888]

I guess the other thing to factor into this discussion is how many students are in a class. I know the maximum numbers are much higher than my shop uses. I don't have my manuals here but I think PADI says 8 students to one instructor and you can toss on 4 more students if there is a DM.

We typically have 4 students with an instructor or 6 students with an instructor and a DM.

[TraceMalin]

Years ago, the president of PDIC International, Frank Murphy, was mowing his lawn when his son, Mel, the training director at the time, walked out into the back yard. Frank shut off the lawnmower and said, "Son, don't think. Just answer. What's wrong with the diving industry?" Mel answered, "We used to be the pimps and the divers were the Johns. Today, the divers have become the pimps, and we are the Johns."

I remember when the option existed for divers to become trained in resort areas. Rather than the classes that took 10 - 12 weeks or longer, training was reduced to a week so that resorts could cater to the needs of the traveling divers. Then, the complaint was that the traveler would not be able to enjoy himself or herself and do any fun dives in that time period. So, to allow for this training was reduced even further.

PDIC's minimum course standards for open water training still lists 30 hours of instruction as the minimum which would be a minimum of 10 hours in the class, 10 hours in the pool and 10 hours of open water dives since the course is supposed to be equally divided and if an instructor follows the guidelines it would take that much. But, that's minimum. Most PDIC instructors I know run a class that exceeds 40 hours.

Last week when I was in Bermuda, the dive shop wouldn't rent tanks to me and my girlfriend (another PDIC instructor) so that we could do a shore dive right in front of the hotel in a shallow area popular for swimming and snorkeling. They said it was illegal to rent tanks to individuals and to dive without a guide. Not true. So, basically, our industry is at the point where a PADI dive center will not rent tanks to a trimix instructor trainer who is a cave instructor and to an instructor who is a cave diver to putz around in the shallows. They also wouldn't due night dives due to the added liability. The more places I travel, the more I find that diving is becoming less and less adventurous. I saw some pretty horrible diving too. How about a diver who doggy paddles rather than add gas to his BCD as he helplessly sinks into the depths? As an open water student, I needed to control my buoyancy in a buddy breathing air share without hanging on to my buddy. Two divers had to fine tune their ascent rate together. Now, I get dive masters and open water instructors in tech class who cannot do that, nor can they maintain a safety stop while sharing gas.

As we decrease our standards, we decrease the level of proficient divers. As the number of proficient divers decreases, resorts and dive boat operators will prevent divers from engaging in more exciting diving opportunities. At least the resort in Bermuda allowed penetration. (As an advanced wreck penetration instructor, I've even had tech boats on real wreck dives tell us that they have a no penetration policy!) As diving excitement becomes dulled, we will lose divers who have developed skills and paid their dues to learning the sport. What it is turning into is the quality that you get when you pick up a crack ho from the street rather than investing the time and energy into courting a potential life-long partner.

[DCBC]

As we decrease our standards, we decrease the level of proficient divers. As the number of proficient divers decreases, resorts and dive boat operators will prevent divers from engaging in more exciting diving opportunities.

I agree Trace. Much of the industry seems only interested in revenue generation. The standards of the 60's and 70's were broken-up into so many pieces by PADI that once a diver completes their first program, they are only 20% trained.

They are dependent on DMs and Instructors to hold their hand in the shallows. I have seen DMs and Instructors that I wouldn't give an OW card to. If these Instructors don't have the knowledge, how can they hope to pass it on to their students? The circle keeps getting smaller...

[Armymutt25A]

I just got back into diving this year. I got certified in 8th grade back in 1990. If I recall correctly, the course was 6 weeks long, one night a week with an hour or so of classroom and an hour or so in the pool. It finished off with two days in a local lake. I didn't dive again until 2009. I did a refresher course last March, which consisted of answering a few questions and a table review, followed by all of the under water skills learned in OW. I didn't have any issues and realized that I had only forgot a small amount of information. I've since been on a few boat dives where there were people who had done the one week course or a weekend course much more recently than my training. They didn't seem to be very comfortable or proficient. I'm wondering if these weekend courses are really doing a disservice to divers by not allowing them to develop their skills to the point where they will stay with them after years of non-use.

[oly5050user]

I just got back into diving this year. I got certified in 8th grade back in 1990. If I recall correctly, the course was 6 weeks long, one night a week with an hour or so of classroom and an hour or so in the pool. It finished off with two days in a local lake. I didn't dive again until 2009. I did a refresher course last March, which consisted of answering a few questions and a table review, followed by all of the under water skills learned in OW. I didn't have any issues and realized that I had only forgot a small amount of information. I've since been on a few boat dives where there were people who had done the one week course or a weekend course much more recently than my training. They didn't seem to be very comfortable or proficient. I'm wondering if these weekend courses are really doing a disservice to divers by not allowing them to develop their skills to the point where they will stay with them after years of non-use.

So the 6 week course you took back in 1990 was a total of 12 hours.It was "an hour of class room and a hour of pool" that comes out to 12 hours.
A weekend course usually runs from 7 to 11 on Friday night (4 hrs) Saturday is 9am to 4 pm and Sunday is 9 am to 4 pm..Total time is 18 hrs.Then there are the 4 ow training dives to be done next. How is this shorter than what you did in 1990? It comes down to the individual ,wheter it was a 40 hour course or an 18 hour course.Everyone has different abilities and skill sets.I have seen people do a discover scuba ,which can take as little as 1 1/2-2 hrs and be better divers than people who say they have been diving for 10 years.

[RU4SKUBA]

Perhaps it would be wiser to consider requirements for Staff Instructors and Course Directors to take education/instruction courses and learn to teach the teachers?

That way the instructors begin to develop actual teaching ability, become more efficient, and create a better product within the current framework. Then it puts the onus on the upper levels to take continuing education courses rather than just dumping a new standard on the already-over burdened OW instructors and there's an eventual payoff to the students.

Ever had a computer genius try to teach you how to do something? Better to ask their partner or roommate the same question, since the expert is rarely capable of relating since their skill sets are usually so much more specific and complicated.

I've been relatively fortunate on the quality of my previous instructors, but if there's an alternative to increasing the duration and cost of the OW program I'd say its making the instructors a more credible teacher.

[TMHeimer]

Am I understanding correctly that they had an 11 hour day? That is nuts.

Yes. The 6 hours in the pool were broken up by a pee break or two. Everything was completed, and rather thoroughly, as we had two instructors, a divemaster and the 3 of us DMs in training. Nevertheless, if I were taking the course I think I would've been overwhelmed. We had 11 students.

[SubMariner]

Perhaps it would be wiser to consider requirements for Staff Instructors and Course Directors to take education/instruction courses and learn to teach the teachers?

That way the instructors begin to develop actual teaching ability, become more efficient, and create a better product within the current framework. Then it puts the onus on the upper levels to take continuing education courses rather than just dumping a new standard on the already-over burdened OW instructors and there's an eventual payoff to the students.

Ever had a computer genius try to teach you how to do something? Better to ask their partner or roommate the same question, since the expert is rarely capable of relating since their skill sets are usually so much more specific and complicated.

I've been relatively fortunate on the quality of my previous instructors, but if there's an alternative to increasing the duration and cost of the OW program I'd say its making the instructors a more credible teacher.

I can assure you that any time there is a standards change at OW, it impacts EVERY level of Instructor, up to/including CDs, IDCSs, and MIs. We are ALL required to keep abreast of any new standards that apply to PADI Recreational diving.

ANY Instructor who wants to better themselves through Con Ed will be faced with having to update their knowledge base, depending on what Specialties they teach. Frankly, OW is just a fraction of what is out there.

In this context I would submit that "overburdened" is inaccurate when referring to OWSIs & OW classes. "Burned out", yes... "overburdened", no.

[halemanō]

I for one wish the term Weekend Course would go away. The Open Water Certification Course includes the Open Water Dives! Pretty much none of the courses discussed in this and other Weekend Course threads or posts are actually Weekend Certification Courses. All these courses sound like 2-weekend courses to me; you folks are spoiled!

I have never heard the term Weekend Course used by any real operator here in Hawaii. There are con people with instructor certs who false advertise and I'm sure some big wave surfers/freedive hunters have have been certified in a weekend with their instructor ('cause I've done it), BUT the most typical advertised cert course here in Hawaii is the 3-day Course.

I consider it a 4-day course as the book/dvd takes one day (~8 hours). The first day is as described above; morning academics, afternoon pool (10 hours minimum). Second and third days are easier; just 2 Open Water shore dives (~7 hours). That is ~24 hours instruction. If you have lunch together and do happy hours together the instructor/student interaction approaches 30 hours and no tipping is required; just pick up the tabs :)

A reputable dive instructor working with the 3-day schedule should also have 4 and 5-day options, 'cause only people who are very comfortable snorkeling/freediving are likely to get it in 3 days. Most modern humans spend too much time in the cubicle or on the couch so 3-day courses should not be the norm. Most modern humans are cheap and impatient so 3-day courses are the norm. Luckily scuba is not really that hard and most half wit, half fit 10 year olds can manage a 3-day course. :shakehead:

[RU4SKUBA]

We are ALL required to keep abreast of any new standards that apply to PADI Recreational diving. ANY Instructor who wants to better themselves through Con Ed will be faced with having to update their knowledge base, depending on what Specialties they teach.

The point that you missed was that if many of the complaints regarding inferior students can be directly linked to inferior teachers, then why not ask the Staff and Course Directors to get some authentic education credentials?

Otherwise the only continuing education they're going to get is within the dive agencies specific to diving.

Sure it's very important, but it doesn't address the issue of quality of teachers in the instruction ranks. The people teaching the instructors should really possess some of this knowledge base or all they really are is a teacher with more knotches on the belt and the funds to pay for the title... so to speak.

Not bashing the Staff Instructors or Course Directors, just saying the issue of quality need not be necessarily always directed at the OW course and always suggest more dives and more hours in classrooms. Its obtuse thinking. Why not develop the teaching skills and make them more efficient?

A good teacher usually accomplishes their instructional goals because they're well-trained in documentation, follow strict lesson plans with logistics planning, use educational system design, are fully prepared for the lesson, and are excellent at paperwork.

Let's be honest here, these are not the strengths of the typical dive instructor.

[TMHeimer]

I've had 8 Instructors so far and they all seemed pretty good to me. But I guess what you're saying could be true. It took me 5 years of college to get my public school teaching certificate. Then again, there are 20 basic scuba skills, so the subject matter to be learned isn't comparable. How one presents the work and rapport with students is the key.

[TraceMalin]

I've had 8 Instructors so far and they all seemed pretty good to me. But I guess what you're saying could be true. It took me 5 years of college to get my public school teaching certificate. Then again, there are 20 basic scuba skills, so the subject matter to be learned isn't comparable. How one presents the work and rapport with students is the key.

Basic Scuba Skills:
1. Swimming Ability (strong swimming ability) - seldom required
2. Water treading (no longer required in steel tanks or even full gear with no BCD inflation) - often only required in swimsuit no gear and not always required. Note: My students have to do this in full equipment no BCD inflation. Rescue divers have to do this without fins.
3. Resting position - face down in water breathing properly through a snorkel (most instructors teaching snorkeling cannot teach proper breathing)
4. Surface dives in snorkeling equipment - one-legged, two-legged, feet first or "dirty water/kelp dive"
5. Snorkel clearing - expansion and blast methods
6. Propulsion - flutter kick, frog kick, modified frog, modified flutter, helicopter turns left and right, backward frog kick, rescue kick (inverted scissors), dolphin kick
7. Removal and replacement of scuba unit - at surface, on bottom,hovering over bottom, mid-water or blue water like during a safety stop
8. Removal and replacement of all scuba gear and equipment - at surface, on bottom, hovering over bottom, and mid-water/blue water
9. Removal and replacement of weight belt or weight system
10. Underwater breath hold swimming
11. Ditch, surface, return and don equipment
12. Mask flood & clear, mask removal and clear, no-mask swimming
13. Regulator clearing - 3 ways - hum/exhale into it, purge button, swish/tongue piston
14. Air sharing with additional second stage
15. Buddy breathing with primary
16. Buddy breathing with octo
17. Breathing from the corrugated BCD inflate/deflate hose using auto-inflator
18. Tank valve breathing
19. Creating a face mask with an air pocket
20. Proper ascent rate - kicking
21. Emergency ascent - kicking
22. Air sharing ascent - kicking
23. Buddy breathing ascent - kicking
24. Proper ascent rate - BCD (oral & auto control)
25. Emergency ascent - BCD (oral and auto control)
26. Air sharing ascent - BCD (oral and auto control donor, oral receiver)
27. Buddy breathing ascent - BCD (oral and auto control, donor, oral receiver)
28. Proper ascent rate - breath control
29. Air sharing ascent - breath control
30. Buddy breathing ascent - breath control
31. Repeat all ascents with 1 diver missing mask
32. Repeat all ascents with both divers missing masks
33. Safety stop - maintain normally, air sharing, buddy breathing, no mask and two divers no mask (all skills with and without up line)
34. Buoyancy - no more than a 3 - 5 foot shift in any skill
35. Trim - no more than 20 to 30 degrees from horizontal
36. Trim 'round the world - vertical, horizontal, right side down, suppine, left side down, inverted
37. Regulator breathing while inverted and suppine
38. Breathing through a free-flowing second stage
39. BCD inflation at surface (bobbing)
40. Controlled descents - feet-first, head-first, horizontal
41. Valve drill - one of the worst crimes in diving education is to not perform valve shutdowns and openings. No diver should die because he or she jumps into the water with the air off and cannot turn it on. Proper weighting, strong swimming and water treading abilities, and ability and skill at valve drills will prevent many of these deaths.
42. Rescue - simple self-rescue and simple buddy rescue and assist techniques should be part of all open water training
43. Compass navigation - outbound and reciprocal courses
44. Stuck BCD auto-inflator - kick against buoyant force, vent gas from rear dump, disconnect auto-inflator, and neutralize buoyancy orally
45. Air-gun first stage - understanding how to manage the noise, bubbles, confusion, and ascent or air-share ascent related to a first stage malfunction in class will reduce stress later
46. Gas management - being able to plan and conduct dives working in PSI, RMV, and SPG calculations on the fly, i.e., reading gauge psi and knowing one's remaining volume and time at a glance
47. Being able to use decompression tables in case of accidental overstays, adjust for altitude, and understanding what to do for omitted deco and treat DCS and AGE
48. Properly plan a dive to include sequence and responsibility of team members, whether to use all air, 1/2 air or thirds as it pertains to recreational diving, planned and max depths, duration, distance, direction, safety stops, etc.
49. In water check for: Deployable additional second stage, octo, long hose primary, bubble check, ability to reach valve, and equipment inventory
50. Reserving enough gas to get two divers to the surface at max depth in an air share slowly, safely to include safety stops.
51. Entries - giant stride, entry from height, forward & backward rolls, seated, beach/wave entry
52. Exits - Ladder, "California Crawl", beach/wave, kick/pull up into inflatable or pool deck

All skills but, backward frog, helicopter turns (using 2 feet), air gun of first stage, and rule of thirds, and planning in rmv and spg pressure to volume on the fly were part of my open water course as a student. I added the backward and heli kicks, air gunning and SPG time/psi/volume on the fly relationship to my PDIC OW course when I teach it.

Some of the older guys have done even more. I may have left a skill or two out accidentally, but if I missed something or you older guys have a good OW skill aside from advanced navigation, Search & Recovery, line/reel work, etc., that is better suited for AOW let me know.

Compared to nearly 30 years ago and earlier, today's open water diver is really only getting a Resort Course - Plus. In fact, PDIC's "Resort Course" has similar training to other agencies' open water courses. It hasn't been changed since it was first created around 1980, and now, as standards have dropped, full open water programs read like an old resort program. Sometimes NEW does not mean IMPROVED.

[TMHeimer]

Hmm. I had no idea of such a difference. Thanks for the education.

[scubadiver888]

Compared to nearly 30 years ago and earlier, today's open water diver is really only getting a Resort Course - Plus. In fact, PDIC's "Resort Course" has similar training to other agencies' open water courses. It hasn't been changed since it was first created around 1980, and now, as standards have dropped, full open water programs read like an old resort program. Sometimes NEW does not mean IMPROVED.

Excuse me for being skeptical but I've talked with people who are ACUC, NAUI, SSI, etc. and they all claim their training is far more extensive then everyone else. I have seen some difference but mostly it has been in the instructor and not the REQUIRED course material.

I had a look at the PDIC site to see what is required to be certified but could not find anything posted on the site. I did find the following, "Every course is taught by trained, certified instructors licensed by PDIC and meeting the high standards of the Recreational SCUBA Training Council (RSTC)."

This is the same standards used by YScuba, SSI, PADI, IDEA, SDI and PDIC.

If the Open Water certification of other agencies is comparable to PDIC's "Resort Course" then shouldn't the PDIC site claim to "EXCEED the high standards of the Recreational SCUBA Training Council (RSTC)"?

[TraceMalin]

Excuse me for being skeptical but I've talked with people who are ACUC, NAUI, SSI, etc. and they all claim their training is far more extensive then everyone else. I have seen some difference but mostly it has been in the instructor and not the REQUIRED course material.

I had a look at the PDIC site to see what is required to be certified but could not find anything posted on the site. I did find the following, "Every course is taught by trained, certified instructors licensed by PDIC and meeting the high standards of the Recreational SCUBA Training Council (RSTC)."

This is the same standards used by YScuba, SSI, PADI, IDEA, SDI and PDIC.

If the Open Water certification of other agencies is comparable to PDIC's "Resort Course" then shouldn't the PDIC site claim to "EXCEED the high standards of the Recreational SCUBA Training Council (RSTC)"?

PDIC Standards for the Resort & Scuba Review & Update Courses:

The PDIC Scuba Review and Update Course may be used to:
a) Encourage inactive divers regardless of training agency affiliation to get back into diving
b) Upgrade PDIC Apprentice or Junior OW divers who have reached their 15th birthday
c) Crossover divers to PDIC OW from another agency
d) Qualify OW scuba divers for participation in AOW or specialty training
e) Qualifying divers in areas unfamiliar from which they were trained
f) Identitify divers whose lack of diving skills, knowledge, or physical condition precludes safe diving
g) Introduce non-trained and non-certified divers to scuba diving through PDIC's Resort Diver course

Skills to be demonstrated and performed in pool or confined water prior to participation in open water dives:

A. Suiting up
- with buddy
B. Equipment Check
- head to toe
C. Entries & Exits
- giant stride - ladder climb
- forward roll - California crawl
- backward roll - pool/small boat
- seated
- shore/beach
- height
D. Buoyancy check
- neutral eye level in empty tank
E. Snorkel swim full scuba
- blast
- "popping"
F. Resting position
- snorkel clearing and recovery
- cramp removal
- weight system removal and replace
G. Controlled descents (stop hover drill)
H. Equalizing air spaces
I. Moving underwater
- flutter kick
- frog kick
- dolphin kick
- lost fin dolphin kick
J. Breathing properly underwater
K. Gauge Monitoring
- time
- depth
- pressure
- direction
- consumption rate
L. Neutralizing buoyancy
- mechanical BCD inflation/Deflation
- oral BCD inflation/deflation
M. Regulator Clearing, Recovery & Freeflow Control
- hum
- purge
- swish
- breathe through freeflowing reg
- recover two ways: arm sweep, tank valve
N. Mask clearing (3 steps)
- partial flood and clear
- full flood and clear
- mask remove, replace and clear
O. Sharing Air
- additional second stage
- buddy breathing
- sharing air kicking ascent
- buddy breathing kicking ascent
- sharing air BCD asisted ascent
- buddy breathing BCD assisted ascent
P. Emergency ascent
Q. Inflate BCD at surface
- bobbing/oral
- mechanical
R. Remove and replace tank at surface

What is added in OW training for PDIC divers is:

Lifesaving & Rescue
Snorkeling & Skin Diving Skills
Remove and Replace tank underwater
Navigation
Remove and Replace weight system underwater
No mask snorkel & scuba swims
No mask air sharing, buddy breathing and no mask air sharing & buddy breathing ascents
Water treading in full equipment
Donning & Doffing (shallow/deep)
Additional propulsion techniques & turns
Stress testing
No-Deco, Decompression, Dive computer & Altitude planning

[Jim Lapenta]

Excuse me for being skeptical but I've talked with people who are ACUC, NAUI, SSI, etc. and they all claim their training is far more extensive then everyone else. I have seen some difference but mostly it has been in the instructor and not the REQUIRED course material.

I had a look at the PDIC site to see what is required to be certified but could not find anything posted on the site. I did find the following, "Every course is taught by trained, certified instructors licensed by PDIC and meeting the high standards of the Recreational SCUBA Training Council (RSTC)."

This is the same standards used by YScuba, SSI, PADI, IDEA, SDI and PDIC.

If the Open Water certification of other agencies is comparable to PDIC's "Resort Course" then shouldn't the PDIC site claim to "EXCEED the high standards of the Recreational SCUBA Training Council (RSTC)"?

What you don't understand is that RSTC standards are not really "standards". They are recommendations that member agencies must use as a minimum to retain membership in the RSTC. Where the confusion and many problems come in is that those minimums are barely sufficient for a diver to survive under water. They do not address comfort levels, safety, rescue skills, or even that the person know how to swim. They were set up for one reason. To keep the government off the backs of the industry. A good idea but the problem is that when these "standards" were adopted there were agencies who wanted to keep many of the skills that truly insured a diver would be competent. They were over ridden by ones that wanted to make a lot of money. The quicker the better.

These guidelines ( that's what they really are) are used by some as minimums. Others try to stay way above them and introduce skills and knowledge that produce divers, not underwater tourists. Any certified diver who needs a DM in the water with them should not have an OW card. If the diver wants one that's a different story. But that would be a decision made based on good judgment developed in OW class. Not because they did not get the education they should have.

I teach a 40 hour class. 16 pool, 16 classroom, and 8 hours min on checkouts. Except for a couple of Trace's added skills and a couple differences in classroom content, our courses are not much different. Tonite I'm doing bailout, buddy breathing swim-w &w/o mask, CESA, and horizontal ascents. We will also try to get in an equipment exchange while buddy breathing. This is an OW class. 6th night in pool. If we don't get everything done we'll do another session next week. All sessions are 2-3 hours. We are planning on checkouts in Puerto Rico in January so we'll do a refresher session the week before.

All skills on checkouts will be done hovering, in midwater, horizontal just like they have been done for the last 4 sessions on scuba. I got certed in a fast course. 4 one and one half hour pool sessions. I picked up the required skills fairly easy. But it was not until dive 12 or 13 that I realized I didn't know squat about diving. The book work I went thru in 2 days. All the knowledge reviews, quizzes, etc. I retained very little of it a month later. Cramming all that in 8 hours? The average person has an attention span of 20 minutes before the mind starts to wander. It needs to be broken up and other things injected to hold attention. Yes the student may retain enough to pass the test but how much will they retain a month from now if they do not dive. My boss has not been able to dive since his checkouts in July. But because of the way I taught the class I can quiz him on any material we covered and it's still there. It was not only learned, it was absorbed and retained. How many weekend certified divers can do that?

Finally exceeding the standards of the RSTC is easy. They are by no definition "high" standards.

[scubadiver888]

Trace,

Does PDIC actually have a 'resort' course? I had a look at the PDIC website and it lists the "Class and Pool Diver" or the "Open Water Diver". To me, a 'resort' course is more than the "Class and Pool Diver" but less than the "Open Water Diver".

I guess I find it misleading to say that PDIC's 'resort' course is more than other agencies Open Water course if PDIC doesn't have a 'resort' course. It would be more accurate to say that PDIC's Open Water Review course has more than other agencies Open Water Diver course.

Basically, when I think of courses, I expect the higher the level of course, the more time/information given. In other words:


resort course < scuba review < open water

When you said,



PDIC's "Resort Course" has similar training to other agencies' open water courses.


I read this as (let's pick on PADI)


PADI Discover Scuba < PADI Scuba Review < PADI Open Water = PDIC Resort Course < PDIC Scuba Review < PDIC Open Water

This lead me to believe you were saying that most other agencies are three steps below PDIC. Your most recent post makes me realize that PDIC doesn't seem to have a traditional 'resort' course and really the PDIC Open Water course is more like one step above what other agencies call an Open Water course.

For PADI I was not taught the following:

K. Gauge Monitoring
- consumption rate
O. Sharing Air
- buddy breathing
- buddy breathing kicking ascent
- buddy breathing BCD assisted ascent

I was taught about buddy breathing but was told in a real life emergency it tends not to work and is really a non-option. More things tend to go wrong when you attempt buddy breathing. If you and your buddy practice a lot it MIGHT be a viable option but in most cases it does not work out and someone tends to panic. I think this is open for debate but PADI does not see it as a lacking in their training.

I do feel consumption rate is something which should be taught and is not. I did not learn about this until after I was certified and from sources such as ScubaBoard.com.

You list the following as required for Open Water Diver as well:

OW: Remove and Replace tank underwater
OW: Remove and Replace weight system underwater
OW: Snorkeling & Skin Diving Skills
OW: No mask snorkel & scuba swims
OW: No mask air sharing and no mask air sharing ascents
OW: Water treading in full equipment
OW: Donning & Doffing (shallow/deep)
AOW: Navigation
RD: Lifesaving & Rescue
??: Additional propulsion techniques & turns
??: Stress testing
??: No-Deco, Decompression, Dive computer & Altitude planning

For the things I prefixed with OW, I learned as part of my Open Water training. We learned basic navigation in OW but full navigation was not until Advanced Open Water training. RD stands for Rescue Diver. I don't think the material introduced for Rescue Diver should be included in Open Water. This is too much information for someone who is still mastering Open Water.

I'm not sure what 'stress testing' is so I cannot say I learned that. We learned the basics of no-decompression and decompression diving. It was very dumbed down from what I've been learning as a Dive Master. Dive Computer is an optional course for most agencies. This is slowly changing. I dove for 5 years before I used a dive computer.

Altitude Planning is optional or can be part of AOW. There is nothing over 1000 feet in my area; I'd have to drive for a few days to be considered altitude diving.

The big question is was I taught more than PADI requires? I don't have a copy of the Instructor's Manual handy so I cannot be sure.

My other question still stands, why does the PDIC web site indicate it MEETS the high standards of RTSC? If all instructors are REQUIRED to EXCEED the minimal standards of RTSC then why not say so on the web site?

I still believe the quality of instruction is more about the instructor and less about the agency. Passionate instructors will interpret the training material differently than other instructors. If you get a good instructor from agency A you will learn more than from an adequate instructor at agency B.

[scubadiver888]

Jim,

I am always searching for a better agency. Better would include, training material, standards, support, etc.. So went Trace led me to believe PDIC is steps above all other agencies. I went to check out the PDIC website and found:


Every course is taught by trained, certified instructors licensed by PDIC and meeting the high standards of the Recreational SCUBA Training Council (RSTC).

I understand that RSTC is really a minimum set of requirements. My OW instructor exceeded these. I was expecting the PDIC website to say it exceeds the RSTC standards.

Basically, if individual instructors are claiming to exceed other agencies and/or the RSTC standards then that instructor exceeds the minimum requirements of other agencies, the RSTC standards and possible their own agency requirements. If the agency makes the claim that it exceeds the RSTC that makes me believe ALL instructors of that agency exceed RSTC standards.

I believe that you and Trace are good instructors regardless of the agency you work with.

I do not believe I can assume an instructor is a good instructor just because they meet the standards of PDIC or NAUI. It is still all about the instructor and not the agency.

[halemanō]

To simplify; When the first RST Council meeting happened they compared OW Course Standards and each Agency had some individual skill standards set lower than the others. They then adopted ALL the lowest Standards as the RSTC Standards, so immediately ALL Agencies do exceed the RSTC Standards in their overall OW Course Standards.

I do not believe there is an Agency that has adopted all the RSTC Minimum Standards as their own Standards. That means a course taught to the RSTC Minimum Standards would not be up to the required OW Course Standards of any of the Member Agencies.

[scubadiver888]

So, PDIC should say it exceeds the RSTC standards and really the only statement that holds any weight would be: "exceeds all RSTC standards".