When is bad vis a problem?

[SailNaked]

when is low vis a problem and why? what is the fear? I have been diving the local mud pit a lot lately for DM course and there are times when I say to myself, wow this 6ft vis is great today, and then there are times when I feel like my underwater world is very small and long for the open ocean. last weekend we were cleaning the trash from the lake and I was looking for trash or a numbered golf ball in about zero vis, seemed ok but I was a little nervous that I would stick my reg in the mud and gunk it up, I guess the only fear at that would be a free flow and end of the dive. when I did my wreck course we went into a wreck with a line and about 3ft of vis, seemed a lot tight in there and I did not want to hang about. I had a line and was somewhat comforted by that but if I had gotten tied up in something I might have had to take quite a few calming breaths. so what about low vis bothers you? Sharks? alligators? accidentally swimming into a cave? bumping your head?

[Leejnd]

Well, I don't do overhead environments, so I don't dive in wrecks or caves. But I have done my share of zero-vis dives, and the main reason I dislike them is because there's nothing to see! What fun is diving if all I can do is stare at the sand on the bottom, or if I'm lucky enough to find a reef, just the few inches of reef in front of my face? I dive so I can look at cool stuff underwater, and if I can't see anything, that kinda takes all the fun out of it.

As for what scares me about low-vis diving, for me it would be losing my buddy, or inadvertantly swimming into a clump of kelp and getting wrapped up in it. But mainly, it's just the fact that there doesn't seem to be much point in diving if all I'm doing is finning around blindly. Sorta like doing a night dive without a light.

[roturner]

It depends on what you're doing. If I'm giving lessons I need to be able to see the whole group. Sometimes that means that the group has to be 2 divers..... and sometimes I can't see my own flippers and have to ca'ncel the dive.

Same applies to buddy contact. If the viz is so bad that the team can't stay together then it's an issue. I've occasionally scrubbed dives before getting in the water too based on just looking in the water and saying OMG! ... LOL fortunately that does'nt happen very often.

Other than that nothing about bad viz in and of itself bothers me. If I close my eyes I don't freak out so why should limited viz bother me?

R..

[SailNaked]

Bad vis can be relative, like for me if i was diving in Shark water about 20ft of vis would probably make me nervous, I could see the reef ok but it would be easy for a shark to surprise me and I might think about that while diving. (I am not generally afraid of sharks but sharks and low vis would be concerning). 6 ft vis might be fine for a checkout dive for open water students but would not be ok for a new part of a cave exploration.

[ligersandtions]

I did a dive in a couple feet of vis last weekend. Vis ranged from about two to five feet....it was amazing how "clear" the water seemed when we were getting five feet of vis :rofl3:

We spent 40 minutes or so diving. Bad vis isn't so much an issue, but when you're not seeing much, it just doesn't make sense to keep diving (for the sake of adding a logged dive to your count or whatever). In socal, the vis is often bad because the surge is bad....when it's really surge-y, particulates get stirred up. When this happens, it can be very disorienting and makes me feel seasick....so I don't particularly enjoy myself. If I'm not enjoying myself, I don't see the point...

[Leejnd]

In socal, the vis is often bad because the surge is bad....when it's really surge-y, particulates get stirred up. When this happens, it can be very disorienting and makes me feel seasick....so I don't particularly enjoy myself. If I'm not enjoying myself, I don't see the point...

Yeah, that's another thing that bothers me when we end up in those murky dives - the surge, and the accompanying nausea. The last time I did an almost-zero-vis dive was a couple months ago - a beach dive in Malibu (as most of my bad-vis dives have been) and you're right - the surge, coupled with not being able to see anything, had me feeling rather punk in the stomach.

Diving just ain't fun if 1) you can't see anything, and 2) you feel like hurling into your reg. That pretty much describes that dive to a T.

[NWGratefulDiver]

When is bad vis a problem? Well, I recall a dive where we had to make a free ascent from 205 fsw because we couldn't find the upline (vis was maybe 3 feet). Even that wouldn't have been much of a problem except we were in a shipping lane, and at our 60-foot stop we could feel a tug passing by above us (towing a barge, it turned out). It still wasn't a problem, in reality ... but it did make for some stressful moments as we had a significant (25 minute) shallow obligation ahead of us ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Leejnd]

Bob - :homealone:

Okay, your story of nearly being decapitated by a barge in a shipping lane WAY supercedes my minor little hurling-in-my-reg story!

[overkillphil]

What kind of draft are those barges/ tugs running? Scary stuff!!

[Robert Phillips]

Surge>Visibility=Bad dive

[Papa_Bear]

It is only a problem if you make it one! It is like a "Lights out drill" in Cave diving a matter of training and self control! As a public safety diver I have been on many dives with "NO viz" and you use the feel method! Everyone who will dive bad viz should have blackout training so they don't panic! Try running into a body at 80ft with zero viz! That will get the heart pounding real quick!!!!!!

So the answer is it becomes a problem when YOU make it one!

[Blackwood]

Try running into a body at 80ft with zero viz! That will get the heart pounding real quick!!!!!!

Maybe if you aren't looking for one...

[Leejnd]

Papa Bear - I agree that it's good to know that you won't panic in a zero-vis condition. We don't always know how we will react to different situations, and I will say that I was happy to learn that it didn't bother me, at least in terms of maintaining my self-control and remembering my training. I have been on dives that started out with decent vis, but dropped to zero at some point, due to something like finning up next to a reef with surge, or getting stuck behind a team of noobs who silted up the place. I never felt the slightest bit uncomfortable - I just calmly did what I had to do.

However, I guess for me, I just don't see the point in doing a zero-vis dive. I know others, though, who consider EVERY dive of value, even if all they do is skills-and-drills in a blackout. Not me...not anymore, anyway. I used to be more rabid about diving - as long as I was underwater, I was happy. These days it's just not worth it to me. No vis = let's go have breakfast instead!

Same thing with surf. I used to have a much higher tolerance for doing surf entries, and if I went to all the trouble to load up my gear and head to the beach, then I was going in unless the surf looked downright unmanageable. These days, if it's much above ankle-slappers, I'm outa there.

[Papa_Bear]

Maybe if you aren't looking for one...

Even if you know what your looking for and you find it, it is still a rush! :(

[ChainSaw0069]

Bad or No Vis is a problem when it makes you uncomfortable.

[gbray]

I was diving a quarry with a buddy I had dived with quite a few times.We decided to decend a line into a very large hole just to see what was there. After all the line must have went to something. At about 55 feet the lights went out. Even though I could feel my buddy's hand on the rope I could not see it or him. We hung there for a moment and then both ascended. It felt so good when we got to 5' of visibility. Never did know how far off the bottom we were. We both agreed later it was just creepy. I can see where it would be easy to freak out in a situation like this if something went wrong.

I think the thing that I disliked the most was not knowing what was around us. We were relatively safe from critters or monsters but the imagination just runs rampant. probably the greatest danger comes from not being able to see your buddy or yours or his equipment in case anything malfunctions. I realized later if you know you are entering an environment like this you and your buddy need to agree on a few basic touch signals so you can communicate.

The value in it is if I had not experienced it I would not have been able to write about it here on scubaboard.

[Sas]

Bad vis isn't so much an issue, but when you're not seeing much, it just doesn't make sense to keep diving (for the sake of adding a logged dive to your count or whatever).

Do you know people who do this??

It depends on what you like... I am still happy enough to do a dive just on sand ;) I guess the novelty of just being in the water hasn't worn off yet. I've done a few very low viz and a few zero viz dives, and I found it really fascinating actually. The reason why I have commented on your post in particular is because I had a friend accuse me of doing low viz dives over winter locally just to 'add dives to my log'. :confused: He is one of those people that if he doesn't like it (he doesn't like bad viz, no critters and cold water), he expects that anyone else who says they enjoy it is lying.

[Texasdivechick]

I'm okay with zero viz in rivers and quarries and other bodies of water where I'm pretty sure there aren't any fish that will bump up against me. Zero to very low viz in Lake Travis creeps me out BIG TIME. It has nothing to do with not being able to see my gauges or my buddy but has everything to do with fish touching me. In the smaller training lakes around Houston, the fish are very small. For some reason even night diving in the vast ocean doesn't bother me in the least. Once I start cave training, I think I will handle it well because there aren't too many man-sized cave fish. LOL! Now that I'm thinking about it, I would much prefer to see a shark approaching in 10fsw than a catfish in the same visibility. Yeah, I've got issues.

[Blackwood]

Even if you know what your looking for and you find it, it is still a rush! :(


Yah, I guess I can imagine that :D

[RonFrank]

I've grown used to low vis diving in CO Lakes, but honestly, I'll take 100' vis in a minute. We recently did the Channel islands on a live aboard, and had some great vis, and some lower vis. Both sets of conditions define the dive to some degree, or at least the mood of the dive.

I don't mind low vis, and sometimes it adds atmosphere, but zero vis sucks, and anything under 5' IMO makes the dive less enjoyable. I've done plenty of sites in both 0~5 feet vis, and in 10~20ft. vis, and I'll take the better vis every time IF I had a choice.

Seeing well is a good thing! :D

[carrielsal]

Low to almost no vis can be common in our local mud hole when the lake starts turning over. I know for many divers it's creepy. If I'm with an experienced dive buddy, it's a good time to practice skills. Occasionally it will be so bad I can't see the glow of my computer. For me that can be disorienting, since I can't tell if I'm swimming down toward the riverbed. When that happens I stop for a moment to take a couple of deep breaths, then slowly start fingerwalking until I can see my computer and compass.

Carrie

[carrielsal]

I'm okay with zero viz in rivers and quarries and other bodies of water where I'm pretty sure there aren't any fish that will bump up against me. Zero to very low viz in Lake Travis creeps me out BIG TIME. It has nothing to do with not being able to see my gauges or my buddy but has everything to do with fish touching me. In the smaller training lakes around Houston, the fish are very small. For some reason even night diving in the vast ocean doesn't bother me in the least. Once I start cave training, I think I will handle it well because there aren't too many man-sized cave fish. LOL! Now that I'm thinking about it, I would much prefer to see a shark approaching in 10fsw than a catfish in the same visibility. Yeah, I've got issues.

I still jump a bit if a fish swims into my light in the deeper depths where you don't expect to see fish. I have yet to see any monster size catfish in the riverbed, but it's bound to happen.

[ZKY]

Well, I can tell you that low vis in Northern California is quite common. Combine that with larger swells and surge, cold water in the 45 to 50 degree range, urchins, rocky structure that can come out of nowhere when your getting jetisoned by the surge, and yes the always present thought of sharks. This makes for some adrenaline filled dives.
It really hits home when out of the gloom you come across a headless seal rolling around on the ocean floor.
Low vis always contributes to the drama and mystery.

[carrielsal]

I might feel a little differently if there was the possibility of coming across a headless sealion! At least in the local mudpit I know I'm not going to bump into a shark.

[roturner]

What kind of draft are those barges/ tugs running? Scary stuff!!

Probably not more than 2-3 metres. Large container ships probably draw on the order of 13-14 metres. The largest/deepest ship I know about draws 24.

Nevertheless I've been in that situation where a ship passes over head and it's a lot of noise. At one of the local divespots is adjacent to a shipping lane in a narrow straight and when ships go through there you can feel your flippers vibrate... LOL

R..

[pittyyofool]

for me bad vis is only a problem if I cant see my gauges in front of my face. I did a great dive in 1-2 feet of visibility the other week and had a great time limited on lobster in 25min. I got so many I was trading small ones in my bag for large ones. 2ft= can't see your hand with a straight arm

[bowlofpetunias]

I like the comment about bad viz only being a problem when you make it one!

Like others I dive to enjoy the sights and the fish.. if I can't see them there isn't really a lot of joy in it for me. That said.. I like to do things that extend my skills and comfort levels.

I would add that my attitude to the viz depends on who I will be diving with. I wouldn't want to be responsible for someone with poor skills or poor buddy skills in terrible viz.

My willingness to dive in lousey viz would also depend on how long it has been since my last dive... 3 or 4 weeks of no diving and I might be tempted by a mud puddle:lol:

Roturner.. our regular dive site borders on a shipping channel... man those Container Ships passing within metres can make you vibrate!

[NWGratefulDiver]

Bob - :homealone:

Okay, your story of nearly being decapitated by a barge in a shipping lane WAY supercedes my minor little hurling-in-my-reg story!

No, it turned out that it was never an issue. The tug and barge were a couple hundred yards away from us. But we didn't know that ... from the sound and vibration it felt like it was right on top of us. And as a result, stress was the issue ... and stress is never your friend underwater.

Another time we were doing a dive in Lake Washington on an old mine sweeper we'd picked up on our side-scan. We always attempt to drop a line near, but not on, these wrecks as they can be fragile and you don't want to damage them. Lake Washington is typically quite dark, especially down in the 190-200 ffw range. As we were descending down the line I suddenly noticed structure a couple feet behind the line. I turned to my right, to get eye contact with my buddy and noticed structure a couple feet to his right as well. Uh oh ... turning a complete circle I could see structure all around us.

We had dropped the down line right through an opening on the deck of the sweeper, and were inside of it. Vis was poor enough that we hadn't even seen the ship as we had descended down to (and into) it. Of course, it was simple enough to just follow the line up a few feet and get out the same we we got in.

A few of our lake dives were in very low vis conditions. Here (http://www.pugetsounddivers.com/journal/category/boom-boat) is a write-up on one of our lowest vis dives to date ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[ligersandtions]

Do you know people who do this??

It depends on what you like... I am still happy enough to do a dive just on sand ;) I guess the novelty of just being in the water hasn't worn off yet. I've done a few very low viz and a few zero viz dives, and I found it really fascinating actually. The reason why I have commented on your post in particular is because I had a friend accuse me of doing low viz dives over winter locally just to 'add dives to my log'. :confused: He is one of those people that if he doesn't like it (he doesn't like bad viz, no critters and cold water), he expects that anyone else who says they enjoy it is lying.

I know of people who do this....I don't dive with people like that though. I suspect a decent number of people who do that are preparing for a Divemaster course or something that requires X number of dives...

Either way, a buddy of mine and I once went out. The vis was no more than 2 feet (maybe less)....it was fairly surge-y out there. He was leading and I was trying to follow. After getting separated for the second time, we met on the surface and he said to me, "I don't really want to keep diving....what do you think? I've been doing this long enough that I don't do 'throw away' dives anymore." I thought it was the perfect term....I don't do 'throw away' dives (those that just add to your count). If I'm not enjoying myself, it's time to do something different for the day....like grab lunch with your buddy and talk about good dives!

[AfterDark]

Bad vis can be relative, like for me if i was diving in Shark water about 20ft of vis would probably make me nervous, I could see the reef ok but it would be easy for a shark to surprise me and I might think about that while diving. (I am not generally afraid of sharks but sharks and low vis would be concerning). 6 ft vis might be fine for a checkout dive for open water students but would not be ok for a new part of a cave exploration.

Don't worry about sharks in low vis you never see the one that gets you anyway:shocked2::D

Here in Rhode Island low vis is a way of life. I'm fond of saying 10' is good 20' is great 30' your not in Rhode Island!

[fisheater]

Well, I can tell you that low vis in Northern California is quite common. Combine that with larger swells and surge, cold water in the 45 to 50 degree range, urchins, rocky structure that can come out of nowhere when your getting jetisoned by the surge, and yes the always present thought of sharks. This makes for some adrenaline filled dives.
It really hits home when out of the gloom you come across a headless seal rolling around on the ocean floor.
Low vis always contributes to the drama and mystery.

How true!

I've found that I often see MORE in low vis. It forces me to go slow and pay attention to the little things that I would otherwise swim and look past without ever noticing. There's such a density of life that one can spend an enjoyable dive just exploring a single boulder.

Low vis diving involves both a skillset and a mindset.

[DOkie]

My favorite dive site consists of the following: 135' wreck, 40 degree water and ZERO viz. In the spring this wreck usually runs 25 ft viz for about a week but after that it's lights out (literally - you can't see your light). I love closing my eyes and running the layout through my mind to find where I'm going...

I actually love low viz dives. Don't get me wrong, I like actually seeing the wreck that I'm diving, but there is just something about using your other senses to complete a dive, staying in contact with your buddy, etc. When that buddy is someone you've spent an awful lot of time with (in my case, my husband of 20 years) it's almost as if you simply know what the other person is going to do. So in saying that, for me the problems arise when I don't trust the person I'm diving with.

[AfterDark]

My favorite dive site consists of the following: 135' wreck, 40 degree water and ZERO viz. In the spring this wreck usually runs 25 ft viz for about a week but after that it's lights out (literally - you can't see your light). I love closing my eyes and running the layout through my mind to find where I'm going...

I actually love low viz dives. Don't get me wrong, I like actually seeing the wreck that I'm diving, but there is just something about using your other senses to complete a dive, staying in contact with your buddy, etc. When that buddy is someone you've spent an awful lot of time with (in my case, my husband of 20 years) it's almost as if you simply know what the other person is going to do. So in saying that, for me the problems arise when I don't trust the person I'm diving with.

DON'T EVER DIVE WITH SOME YOU DON'T TRUST, NEVER.:no::no:
If someone you dive with gives you reason to doubt them be very careful. Dive like your diving solo, which IMO is far better than diving with someone you don't trust.

[AfterDark]

Everyone who will dive bad viz should have blackout training so they don't panic!

That was a standard part of a scuba diving course in 1968. It isn't today? Why not?

[BLUESEASONBALI]

when you can't see your mask!!!!!! haha:D

[james croft]

If I only have a foot or less of viz I find I tend to close my eyes. Usually I am searching for an object and using the touch and feel method of locating it. I close my eyes as I don't like things looming up at me. It seems less creepy that way and I can be more methodical..

[Jim Lapenta]

That was a standard part of a scuba diving course in 1968. It isn't today? Why not?

Same reason other basic skills have been eliminated. Shorten course means more divers thru in less time. Reduce education and they have to come back for more training. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ The student I have now plans on diving locally that means he will run into low vis conditions. Just like my other OW students they will get some no mask/low vis skill work in the pool. Mostly along the lines of keeping in contact with a buddy.

[AfterDark]

Same reason other basic skills have been eliminated. Shorten course means more divers thru in less time. Reduce education and they have to come back for more training. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ The student I have now plans on diving locally that means he will run into low vis conditions. Just like my other OW students they will get some no mask/low vis skill work in the pool. Mostly along the lines of keeping in contact with a buddy.

Thanks JimLap, I try to never miss a chance to tweak the box full of certs crowd. They can't believe one cert would cover so much.:D

[DOkie]

I always dive as if I am diving solo (even with someone I trust).

[Walter]

WOW! Apparently lots of people, some of whom I respect, are limiting themselves to what they experience visually. I love diving. I love diving in 200 feet visibility. I enjoy the experience of seeing the beauty of the underwater world. I love the feeling of weightlessness. I enjoy that feeling when I'm diving in 200 ft visibility, but I also enjoy that feeling when I'm diving in black water. I think I may even enjoy it more in black water because the sights aren't distracting me from other sensations. Cruising along slowly, feeling the caress of water, looking at tiny creatures 3 inches away is a wonderful experience. If you've made throw away dives, it's because you've thrown away a beautiful experience without appreciating the beauty to be found. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but it's also found through senses other than sight. Experience the feel of diving, not just the vision. You'll be happier as a result.

[bcellreceptor]

In Northern Cali (Monterey), I've had a few dives where there was essentially zero vis, but only for part of the dive. At about 30' things tend to clear up. Therefore, I'll often descend to a 20' bottom and then swim along the bottom away from shore towards deeper water. Between 20' and 30' the vis commonly will clear up, making for an awesome dive.

[1_T_Submariner]

I have had my buddy hold on to my tank so he knew where I was. Low vis but we were breathing "Canned Air" underwater so it was all good!