Over the years I have taught the procedure hundreds of times to as many students, but until a few weeks ago I had never actually experienced a actual event that necessitated doing it for real myself. Here's the story... I had put on a swivel connecting my second stage to my regulator hose in an attempt to make my regulator more comfortable in my mouth. Over the course of a couple of months and a dozen or so dives it was becoming a little stiff and on this particular dive it was really bothering me. I was at about 65 feet and took a breath, took the reg out of my mouth and began to twist the swivel around in its range of motion. It seemed to be getting looser and then suddenly it separated from the second stage. Then I had a little mini air fire hose and the bubbles obliterated my vision. I immediately put my AIR II into my mouth, cleared it and started heading to the surface. Luckily this little event had started when I had 1500 pounds left in a 80 and my biggest challenge was trying to watch my ascent rate and see my gauges. I made it to the surface, a little fast, but no side effects. The boat captain was on top of me when I hit the surface, he said the bubbles were pretty dramatic. I was diving with my girl friend and my daughter, both of which followed me to the surface. So, the moral to this story has three parts for me: #1: I don't think too much of swivels on air hoses... don't think I'll ever get another... I got a little longer hose and it seemed to do the trick without all the moving parts... #2: When something like that happens it is up to you to save you... or at least give it the ole college try... I like diving with a buddy because I'm a social kind of guy :<}... but I don't rely on people to save me. I am fortunate in that I've been diving long enough that it really was second nature, but newer divers should think about what they would do in air emergencies and at least practice using their secondary air supplies... Now if I'd been at 120 feet instead of 65 feet things might have turned out differently, but I think I still would have made it to the surface, but it would have probably turned into a real emergency ascent before I got there instead of the controlled bubble fest this last one was. Conversely, as a buddy it is your responsibility to "participate in the event" and render assistance if required, i.e., if I was ascending and the bubbles stopped, be there to offer to share your air... Oh yeah, #3: Don't try to loosen things underwater! That was really stupid. Dive safe? Aloha.
jridg
November 24th, 2009, 06:06 PM
Did the swivel fail? Did you accidentally unscrew it? Just wondering what the failure point was.
Peter_C
November 24th, 2009, 06:22 PM
When I read up on swivels there seemed to be a huge failure rate. They are an item that should not be used. Some of the swivels have even been recalled due to repetitive failures. Now I do understand that a ball swivel that one reg manufacturer uses is captured and not prone to failure.
A long hose has many benefits including keeping the reg from pulling. A 5-7 foot hose works great in all circumstances, and makes air shares very comfortable.
We train to utilize our buddies and practice air share drills often. Most likely I would have headed to a buddy for air and then shut my own post down. The hose could have also been bent back on itself to pinch it off thus slowing the loss of air.
Oh and welcome to Scubaboard :)
Scott L
November 24th, 2009, 06:38 PM
Troconn, very nice post. Hope you stay active....
InTheDrink
November 24th, 2009, 07:37 PM
When I read up on swivels there seemed to be a huge failure rate. They are an item that should not be used. Some of the swivels have even been recalled due to repetitive failures. Now I do understand that a ball swivel that one reg manufacturer uses is captured and not prone to failure.
A long hose has many benefits including keeping the reg from pulling. A 5-7 foot hose works great in all circumstances, and makes air shares very comfortable.
We train to utilize our buddies and practice air share drills often. Most likely I would have headed to a buddy for air and then shut my own post down. The hose could have also been bent back on itself to pinch it off thus slowing the loss of air.
Oh and welcome to Scubaboard :)
No hijack intended.
I just came back from first trip (10 days) with long hose and bungied back up. And wouldn't you guess - it was my first time I needed to share my air. It was a dream, easy relaxed and could have continued dive easily. Miflex hoses too - they rock for all things diving apart from hanging them up - they're very 'slippy' so the normal rubber friction doesn't keep them in situ. However, given the choice between a reg with yet another moveable part (i.e. point of failure) and a flexible hose, the answer to me is clear - get your ass a miflex hose - they are truly lovely. If I could afford it I'd wrap my Christmas tree with them :)
J
Tim.
November 24th, 2009, 07:54 PM
Interesting post, thanks for the experience.
Folding the hose sharply at 180 deg will staunch the majority of the flow.
Spd 135
November 24th, 2009, 08:48 PM
Interesting post, thanks for the experience.
Folding the hose sharply at 180 deg will staunch the majority of the flow.
And then you could attach it back to the second stage. Hand tight works, but wrench tight is better.
Scott L
November 24th, 2009, 08:59 PM
Many months ago there was a video clip of 2 pool dives whereas a LP hose was cut when AL 80 was full with the gas emptying out in I am guessing at 1.3 minutes and the same senario with the HP hose taking 3-4 times longer (small hole)....perhaps someone will post...
Peter_C
November 24th, 2009, 09:29 PM
And then you could attach it back to the second stage. Hand tight works, but wrench tight is better.
I doubt you are going to do that. The allen set screw is tiny, and probably lost. I remember reading the o-ring blows out sometimes too.
Personally my second stage regs are only hand tightened onto my hoses. Makes it easy to switch them around and if an adjustment on the second stage is needed it can be done in a few seconds. Plus they could be swapped around if using a stage bottle underwater.
fisheater
November 24th, 2009, 09:35 PM
Many months ago there was a video clip of 2 pool dives whereas a LP hose was cut when AL 80 was full with the gas emptying out in I am guessing at 1.3 minutes and the same senario with the HP hose taking 3-4 times longer (small hole)....perhaps someone will post...
Those are on the ScubaToys website.
Lee Taylor
November 24th, 2009, 09:45 PM
Hello Trocon,
I have heard that the swivels come apart. Thanks for posting a validation. My personal philosophy is similiar to yours in regards to saving yourself. When I go diving I am always prepared to save myself. I am strickly a recreation diver and I want a straight, un-obstructed, immediate, controlled ascent, to the surface. Its just a personal choice.
Thanks for the posting. It will be helpful to others considering using a swivel.
Spd 135
November 24th, 2009, 10:54 PM
I doubt you are going to do that. The allen set screw is tiny, and probably lost. I remember reading the o-ring blows out sometimes too.
Personally my second stage regs are only hand tightened onto my hoses. Makes it easy to switch them around and if an adjustment on the second stage is needed it can be done in a few seconds. Plus they could be swapped around if using a stage bottle underwater.
I didn't see where, he said, the swivel came apart. He just said it separated from the second stage, as if it come loose. If that was the case he could have just re-attached it and continued the dive. I have had that happen when I used to hand tighten mine. I have recently changed to a 360 degree swivel after orings extruded two separate times on the old 90's I was using. The 360's seem to be solid.
troconn
November 25th, 2009, 12:01 AM
The swivel unscrewed... it looks like it has a set screw that is supposed to stay tight and allow the swivel to swivel... but in this case it came apart...
troconn
November 25th, 2009, 01:15 AM
Did the swivel fail? Did you accidentally unscrew it? Just wondering what the failure point was.
I would say a bit of both... the swivel is essentially a hollow ball that is cut in half... one half has a connector for the low pressure hose and the other half the connector for the second stage. The two halves are held together by an axis screw that free wheels through one half and threads into the inside of the other. The half that has the threaded hole... well that hole goes all the way through and an opposing set screw goes in from the other side, pressing against the axis screw to hold it tight and allow the swivel to swivel presumably without unscrewing. There is an o-ring in a channel around the inside diameter of the ball halves as well. I think it failed because the axis screw stopped free wheeling and seized up thereby allowing it to unscrew.
I do appreciate the responses and the friendly discussion. Strangely enough the idea of crimping the hose never occurred to me... great idea... the most obvious solutions sometimes never occur to me. That would have really made it easier to see too ;<}
Chuck Tribolet
November 25th, 2009, 09:15 AM
Many months ago there was a video clip of 2 pool dives whereas a LP hose was cut when AL 80 was full with the gas emptying out in I am guessing at 1.3 minutes and the same senario with the HP hose taking 3-4 times longer (small hole)....perhaps someone will post...
That's consistent with an experiment I ran several years ago. Not
being into wanton destruction of hoses, I unscrewed the HP hose'
and cracked the valve. I'd have had plenty of time to get to the
surface. Then I put the HP hose back in and unscrewed the LP
hose. The tank would have been empty in a couple of minutes.
I'd say the difference between HP and LP is 10x not 3-4x.
Those who post about the long hose being great for sharing gas
are 1000% (no typo) right on. I've been there four times, first
time on a traditional octo, the last three on a long hose. LONG
HOSE IS BETTER. When is PADI, etc., going to start teaching the
long hose?????
On the subject of hand-tightened second stages: Several years ago
I found a second stage (no hose, no nothing) at the Great Pinnacle
at Pt. Lobos. I can only presume that it was hand-tightened. I
did a good deal of work trying to reunite it with its owner, and
it ended up in Mike Guardinio's teach kids to dive program. MMM,
maybe the right answer is a wrench in your drysuit pocket.
Peter didn't mention that you needed to HAVE an Allen wrench to tighten
things up on the swivel.
Kevrumbo
November 25th, 2009, 10:55 AM
I had a similar catastrophic unfixable free-flow from my primary long hose 2nd stage; the cracking adjustment knob blew-out when I rotated it. Switched to my bungied back-up reg around my neck, controlled the deflator with my left hand on the CESA from 6m deep, and feathered/modulated the single tank valve behind my head with my right hand --opening and shutting the valve when I needed to take a breath.
The motivation in this situation, is to never let your precious breathing gas just simply "hemorrhage away". Shut down the tank valve, conserve what you've got left and look for your buddy. If he's not there anywhere in sight, then do the modified CESA described above by feathering the tank valve, taking breaths as needed. IMHO, this should be a skill regularly taught in all BOW courses and routinely practiced. . .
Steve50
November 25th, 2009, 11:00 AM
+1 for the comfort of Miflex hoses
OldNSalty
November 25th, 2009, 11:50 AM
Hold up! You used an Air II to save your life and it worked?!? You may want to disappear for a bit, there are a lot of people here who will want you silenced.
:)
diablonyc2
November 25th, 2009, 04:12 PM
Thanks for sharing troconn....Being a new diver, I look for all the stories from the experienced folk to assist me in my equipment decisions and situational issues. I was considering a swivel connector, but will rethink it now from your story.
I had a slight emergency a few months back, but not from equipment failure. A new buddy let too much of his wreck reel out at 110ft. I thank my lucky stars I had a knife and sheers that day (and remained calm).
Granny Scuba
November 28th, 2009, 12:27 AM
Hold up! You used an Air II to save your life and it worked?!? You may want to disappear for a bit, there are a lot of people here who will want you silenced.
:)
Whats an AirII?
What is the controversy surrounding it?
OldNSalty
November 28th, 2009, 09:20 AM
Whats an AirII?
What is the controversy surrounding it?
An octo that is integrated with the inflator on your BCD. Some people like them, some people hate them to the point of trying to push their gear choice onto others. Most people, I suspect, don't care either way.
Like any gear, you should train with it so you know how to use it.
scubafanatic
November 28th, 2009, 11:46 AM
...I won't use the swivels that are held together by those little screws....however, I have happily used the Atomic Aquatics swivel hoses on a bunch of regs for years and have absolutely no worries about using them....other scuba reg manufacturers also offer them (Apeks/Oceanic/Tusa) The OEM ones are designed/assembled differently such that it's all one piece instead of the little clamshell held together by a screw design....way too many stories of that type failing !
Lee Taylor
November 28th, 2009, 01:02 PM
I didn't see where, he said, the swivel came apart. He just said it separated from the second stage, as if it come loose. If that was the case he could have just re-attached it and continued the dive.
Interesting assessment. It seems everyone re-acts differently to an emergency, perceived emergency, or potential emergency. I am a recreational diver. I realise we have all types of divers and levels of training out there, including military training, which I imagine includes repetitive emergency proceedures.
I found, in a recent scuba emergency, my "analytical mind" wanted to immediately address the problem. Fortunately, the "survival" part of my mind, literally over-rode my analytical mind, and expressed a definite forget it Mr. Fix-it, the dive is over. My survival mind instructed me to immediately start my ascent straight to the surface. My thought process was that I am going to the surface one way or another, with or without weights, and with or without gear. In hind sight, it was somewhat pandemonius, yet controlled.
Looking back I find 3 things of interest. My survival instinct literally took over my mind, forcing calmness (this I find interesting), and forcing an immediate controlled behavior (ascent).
I am sure that addressing and fixing a problem, at depth, is in some cases, is the correct thing to do, but not in all cases.
Butchbs1985
December 5th, 2009, 10:25 PM
I would love to get an airII but as of yet have no spare cash. Interesting about the swivel though. A couple of guys I dive with use them but I have a fairly long 2nd stage hose so have never really felt the need. I'll be sure to direct them to this thread just as an FYI.
BKP
December 5th, 2009, 11:32 PM
Another +1 for Miflex.
I've been diving an Atomic B2 primary for years, and still wasn't convinced the swivel did much good. Once the standard hose was charged, the swivel tightened up, and created the same jaw fatigue you get on a standard length non-swivel hose.
I replaced the swivel with a Miflex (yes, you can do it on an Atomic -- if you do a search, I posted instructions, and pictures for what you'll need sometime last year) and jaw fatigue is no longer an issue... Have since replaced all my hoses with Miflex... well worth the price.
dazle
December 8th, 2009, 05:11 AM
Well handled!
I'm not sure if I agree with some of the posts doing equipment maintenance at depth after a failure! I suppose if you are with Chuck Norris about to do an amphibious assault then that's a different story.
I consider myself to be on my own pretty much too. Buddies I've had are usually to busy following a DM's fins or are doing a handstand on 1 finger whilst trying to give fish their air.
If something goes wrong yeah a buddy is a lifeline but I always think of how I can get out of a situation on my own without drowning, getting bent or getting a propeller impaled in my scalp.
D
Jerzi
December 8th, 2009, 03:25 PM
The first thing I thought about was to reach back to first stage and grab the hose from there and work my way down so I could at least get it out of my face or kink it. Are the hoses hard to control in this type of scenario?
Scubahagel
December 13th, 2009, 03:30 PM
I use an Aeris Ion regulator, it has a swivel connection onto my second stage. So far I haven't had any problems, quite the opposite in fact. However it is good to know some of the problems that can arise with my equipment.
I was thinking of having a longer air hose installed onto my regulator, maybe an extra foot just to see how well it works and to truly fine tune my equipment specs.
My alternate air doesn't have a swivel attachment, just a rotator that turns 360 degrees, any known problems anyone can think of with those connections?
Nylorac
December 14th, 2009, 01:03 AM
swivel connecting my second stage to my regulator hose
I have to say I have no idea what a swivel is -based on the comments it seems questionable but I would like to know what it is.
BKP
December 14th, 2009, 01:15 AM
A swivel is basically a ball-joint connecting the reg hose to the second stage. Theoretically, it allows for greater comfort since you can move your head and have the reg swivel rather than take the hose along with the movement.
Personally, I found once by B2 hose was charged (tank valve opened), the swivel didn't swivel terribly easily... I prefer Miflex hoses for accomplishing that comfort level with greater success.
couv
December 14th, 2009, 06:45 PM
I realize the swivels mentioned in this post are the type that allow movement of the second stage at angles other than in line with the hose. For sure there have been problems with these and in some cases recalls issued. However, it is important to know that ALL second stage hoses have swivels. There is a swivel that allows the regulator to rotate about the axis of the hose. This is accomplished by using a dynamic o-ring inside the hose fitting that mates with the second stage. The reason it is important to know this is because one can be easily fooled into believing everything is normal when in fact the fitting at the second stage (or the first stage) could be deceptively loose. We are all used to seeing our second stages rotate about the hose so we become complacent. ALL hose fittings should be checked to make sure they are AT LEAST hand tight.
