80/80 WWW contemplates BP/W; foolishly requests advice

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lairdb

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Somebody wrote that there's about 3000 conflicting opinions on this topic on this board. I think over the last couple of weeks, I've read every one. (Particular respect, by the way, to NetDoc and FredT, who always seem to be both intelligent and considerate. Not the only ones, but hey really stuck)

Lets see if we can make that even worse, by asking for advice on the particulars of my situation.

Context:

Last time I was close to properly weighted, it was 10 pounds total (4 in rear trim pockets and 6 integrated ditchable) with an AL80, wearing a one-piece 3mm neoprene. I might have been able to lose a couple more pounds, but I wouldn't put serious money on it. At the time, I was using a SeaQuest Pro QD jacket-style.

I'm mostly an 80/80, but seriously comtemplating getting back into regular local diving (San Diego, CA), which is 65 degrees down to 55 in the winter and 70 down to 60 when it's nicer. In that environment, it's a 5m FJ with 3mm hood. I'd *like* to have one rig that suits both local and travel diving. I don't expect to go beyond single-tank diving, or to do anything more tek than very basic wreck penetration in the near future, and am willing to invest again then if I change my mind.

Price isn't the be-all-end-all; I'm cheap, but willing to buy value.

If I start diving here, it'll be with local charter boats, who often have ST90s rather than AL80s.

Rentable/borrow-able gear is in pretty short variety hereabouts, so my ability to try a wide variety of things before buying is limited.


Things I've concluded after reading a LOT and thinking some:

The DIR folks have some things figured out pretty well. Not everything in every situation for every person, and some of those whose enthusiasm outweigh their sense get a little overbearing, but there's a great deal of sense to much of it. (We'll talk about whether 7 foot hoses make sense in rough open-water, as well as the general logic of looping a cord around your neck, another time.)

I think I would like back-inflation; it just makes a lot of sense.

I like (from a design simplicity point-of-view) the BP and one-long-strap concept; it just appeals. I also like that it packs smaller (though not necessarily lighter.)

Zero ditchable weight just doesn't feel right. (Okay, it might actually "feel" really good, but I don't think I'm ready to go there.)

I don't think plastic shoulder buckles are Instant Death; in fact, they're pretty convenient when the boat crew wants you to hand your rig up first. As I said, there's a lot of appeal to the simplicity of the one-long-strap, but I genuinely don't know how concerned to be about being able to struggle into and out of it, both on the boat's bench and in the water.



Net of all this, I would seem to be somewhere between:

Aluminum BP and Halcyon Pioneer 27 or 36, with ACB20 pockets and maybe trim pockets

Steel BP and Halcyon Pioneer 27 or 36, with ACB20 pockets

TransPac II and TravelWings (add pockets?)

DeepOutdoors Matrix and 34# bladder (add pockets?)

"conventional" integrated jacket with back inflation (e.g. AquaLung Black Diamond, Zeagle Ranger)


What have I missed, what should I reconsider... help!

Thanks.

--Laird
 
...that you're a BC kinda guy.

Get the best back inflate weight integrated BC that you can afford. I like the Oceanic Chute or the Seaquest Balance but there are alot of good BCs.



SA
 
Charlie99 once bubbled...
1. What's wrong with your existing SeaQuest Pro QD?

Nothing -- except that it was rental gear, not mine.

Stephen Ash once bubbled...
(I think)...that you're a BC kinda guy.

Get the best back inflate weight integrated BC that you can afford. I like the Oceanic Chute or the Seaquest Balance but there are alot of good BCs.

I'm willing to hear that, but help me through the reasoning just a little. There's no small number of people here convinced that BP/W is the best for all situations, people, places, conditions... so what makes somebody "a BC kinda guy"?

Thanks.

--L
 
lairdb once bubbled...

Net of all this, I would seem to be somewhere between:

Aluminum BP and Halcyon Pioneer 27 or 36, with ACB20 pockets and maybe trim pockets

Steel BP and Halcyon Pioneer 27 or 36, with ACB20 pockets

TransPac II and TravelWings (add pockets?)

DeepOutdoors Matrix and 34# bladder (add pockets?)

"conventional" integrated jacket with back inflation (e.g. AquaLung Black Diamond, Zeagle Ranger)


What have I missed, what should I reconsider... help!

Thanks.

--Laird

I would go with Steel Halcyon BP/27lbs wing setup. This is what I use for diving single AL80s and it works great. I personally hate the ACB pockets. They stick out too far and get in the way. The rig is much cleaner without them. A steel BP weighs 6lbs so, this will help with the weighting issues. You don't really need ditchable weight as long as the rig is balanced.
 
lairdb once bubbled...


I'm willing to hear that, but help me through the reasoning just a little. There's no small number of people here convinced that BP/W is the best for all situations, people, places, conditions... so what makes somebody "a BC kinda guy"?

Thanks.

--L

I am very pro BP/wing. But while I believe a BP/wing is great for all occasions, I do not believe it is great for all divers.

What makes somebody a BC kinda guy?

Well...

If you hand up your gear to the boat crew...you're a BC kinda guy.

If you like the convenience of plastic buckles...then you're a BC kinda guy.

If you're looking for a simple, one-rig-for-all solution...then you're a BC kinda guy.*

If you're worried about diving without ditchable weights...then you might be a BC kinda guy.

If you're skeptical about the logic of a long hose and a bungied backup...then you might be a BC kinda guy.

I'm not crackin' on ya...really. It's just a vibe I get that you would be happier with a BC. If you're excited or curious about a BP/wing then go test dive one. You might be surprised...one way or the other.

SA

* I think that a BP/wing can be made perfect for any condition. But to do so requires some tweaking. For instance, I have three different weight BPs, two different weight STAs, and two different wings just for diving with a single Al 80 using various exposure suits. I suppose one could use a single BP/wing combo for different environments (and many folks do) but the result is...hmmm... less than optimal.
 
Here is my suggestion for a single BP/wing combo that might work well for both warm and cold water...
You may need to recalculate...
Even though I believe this setup might work well for a variety of conditions, there are still some things about it that you might not like.

Again...go try one. I wish you were here...I'd let you use one of my rigs.
 
Stephen Ash once bubbled...


I am very pro BP/wing. But while I believe a BP/wing is great for all occasions, I do not believe it is great for all divers.

Okay, fair distinction; thanks.


If you hand up your gear to the boat crew...you're a BC kinda guy.

Actually, I prefer climbing out (as long as the ladders are fishbones, or it's straight onto the swim platform.) but it's up to the boat crew; I've been more places than not where "you WILL hand up your gear".


If you like the convenience of plastic buckles...then you're a BC kinda guy.

See previous answer.

If you're skeptical about the logic of a long hose and a bungied backup...then you might be a BC kinda guy.

Only the 7-foot-ness, which I strongly suspect evolved in tight environment situations (e.g. caves) where you might need the recipient to be a full body length behind in order to successfully extricate, and has then been religiously carried forward. In both non-training situations where I've donated to another diver, if they were on the end of a 7 foot hose (as shown so nicely on the 5D videos) they would have had the reg ripped out of their mouth before they got their first breath.

I'm not crackin' on ya...really. It's just a vibe I get that you would be happier with a BC. If you're excited or curious about a BP/wing then go test dive one. You might be surprised...one way or the other.

No, no -- that's the feedback I was looking for...

If you're looking for a simple, one-rig-for-all solution...then you're a BC kinda guy.*

If you're worried about diving without ditchable weights...then you might be a BC kinda guy.

* I think that a BP/wing can be made perfect for any condition. But to do so requires some tweaking. For instance, I have three different weight BPs, two different weight STAs, and two different wings just for diving with a single Al 80 using various exposure suits. I suppose one could use a single BP/wing combo for different environments (and many folks do) but the result is...hmmm... less than optimal.

...or, more precisely, that's the feedback I was looking for. In essence, what I believe you're saying is that the BP/wing setup can be made perfect in any condition, but that a (i.e. a single) BP/wing can't; the additions (weight pockets) and/or compromises are "...hmmm... less than optimal." The BP/wing-er needs a quiver of different BPs/STAs/channel weights/etc. to cover a variety of situations.

Here is my suggestion for a single BP/wing combo that might work well for both warm and cold water...
You may need to recalculate...
Even though I believe this setup might work well for a variety of conditions, there are still some things about it that you might not like.

Yes; I'd seen that post before. Sounds like a "less than optimal" compromise.


Again...go try one. I wish you were here...I'd let you use one of my rigs.

Yep; thanks. Thanks for the counsel.

--L
 
Actually, I prefer climbing out (as long as the ladders are fishbones, or it's straight onto the swim platform.) but it's up to the boat crew; I've been more places than not where "you WILL hand up your gear".

A BP/wing rig isn't nearly as easy to get out of on the surface as a BC with quick release buckles. Some around here may say that it is - and it might be for them - but that's not my experience. It's not so bad in a shortie but it gets more difficult as your layering increases...like in a drysuit. Add wrist guages to the mix and...well... it can be done, of course, but it'll never be as easy as poppin' loose a BC.

I ALWAYS climb out with my rig on...not only because it's no fun to get out of but more importantly because I WILL NOT allow the boat crew to handle my gear. If they try to tell me otherwise I just ignore 'em. It's really not a big deal unless someone is not physically able to climb out safely.

...or, more precisely, that's the feedback I was looking for. In essence, what I believe you're saying is that the BP/wing setup can be made perfect in any condition, but that a (i.e. a single) BP/wing can't; the additions (weight pockets) and/or compromises are "...hmmm... less than optimal." The BP/wing-er needs a quiver of different BPs/STAs/channel weights/etc. to cover a variety of situations.

Yah...I guess. I think what I'm tryin' to say is that a BP/wing - though simple in design - is not actually simple...at least not when compared to a BC. Geez, it's not even easy figuring out just what kinda BP and wing to purchase...and that's just the start. I guess if you just did one kinda diving then it would be pretty easy. But if one day you dive cold Catalina and the next day you're in balmy Mexico then there's some piddlin' to do ...if you want things just right. With a BC, what ya got is what ya got...no tweaking options except for moving weight around a little bit. But that's the cool thing with the BP/wing...if you're willing you can really dial it in...so to speak.

Ya know what I think a BP/wing kinda guy is? A BP/wing kinda guy is a kinda guy that likes messin' with his gear...he's equipment focused...he likes things just so...I don't mean this in a bad way...not at all. I think the BP/wing guy enjoys the gear as much as the dive..appreciates it for what it offers...and doesn't miss the ease and functionality of the BC one bit.

I don't know if I'm being clear. BP and wings are really great but they're not for everybody...nor should they be for everybody. I don't know if a BP/wing is right for you. I don't know what makes you tick. I was just takin' a guess.

SA
 
Stephen Ash once bubbled...


A BP/wing rig isn't nearly as easy to get out of on the surface as a BC with quick release buckles. Some around here may say that it is - and it might be for them - but that's not my experience.

It's been my experience that a bp/wing is actually EASIER to get out of than a "regular" BC. Simply inflate the bp/wing, and duck out of it. That is, dunk under the surface while holding your arms up and it comes right off, without any mess or fuss.

And when I put it back on, I simply swam up to it from underneath... Much easier than trying to clip together some plastic buckles while floating on the surface.

To each his own, I guess.


It's not so bad in a shortie but it gets more difficult as your layering increases...like in a drysuit. Add wrist guages to the mix and...well... it can be done, of course, but it'll never be as easy as poppin' loose a BC.

I've had a different experience than you. <shrugs>


I ALWAYS climb out with my rig on...not only because it's no fun to get out of but more importantly because I WILL NOT allow the boat crew to handle my gear. If they try to tell me otherwise I just ignore 'em.

Great point! I feel the same way. Why is it that people don't look at gear as "life support?" After all, that's what it is! I certainly would not allow someone else to pack my parachute... Why would I allow them to handle my gear anyway?


Yah...I guess. I think what I'm tryin' to say is that a BP/wing - though simple in design - is not actually simple...at least not when compared to a BC. Geez, it's not even easy figuring out just what kinda BP and wing to purchase...and that's just the start.

I'm a bit confused over this point... What makes a bp/wing any more or less complicated than any other BC?


I guess if you just did one kinda diving then it would be pretty easy. But if one day you dive cold Catalina and the next day you're in balmy Mexico then there's some piddlin' to do ...if you want things just right. With a BC, what ya got is what ya got...no tweaking options except for moving weight around a little bit. But that's the cool thing with the BP/wing...if you're willing you can really dial it in...so to speak.

In my humble experience, what you say is true, but is not untrue for bp's and wings. If you want to dive the same way (AL80 and a 5 mil, maybe?) in cold water as you do in warm, there's nothing to stop any "regular" BC diver from changing their rig - the same as a bp/wing diver.

The bottom line is that if you're diving different places, you'll likely want to change your gear a bit. If you're diving with a "regular" BC, you'll want to change your exposure protection and your weighting accordingly... If you're diving with a bp/wing, you'll also want to change your exposure protection and your weighting accordingly. I don't see much difference there one way or the other.


Ya know what I think a BP/wing kinda guy is? A BP/wing kinda guy is a kinda guy that likes messin' with his gear...he's equipment focused...

I can see where you're going with this thought... And I understand how you came to that conclusion. I once felt the same way.

But the truth is that every diver I've found who is a bp/wing diver is specifically NOT "equipment focused," but rather "skill focused." Whereas the "regular BC" diver might purchase a new BC every couple of years (according to the "latest and greatest"), a bp/wing diver focuses instead on skills and cares little about the gear. It's also been my experience that the people most concerned about BC's are those who are the "regular BC" owners... Those who dive with bp/wings appear to not really care who dives what sort of BC.

I'm not saying your wrong... I'm saying that in my humble experience, I've found the oppostite to be true. Most of the bp/wing divers couldn't care less about what sort of gear you dive with.


I think the BP/wing guy enjoys the gear as much as the dive..appreciates it for what it offers...and doesn't miss the ease and functionality of the BC one bit.

I once felt that way too.
 

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