The BEST Tec Training Agencies?

[El Gato]

Hi Guys,

I'm a recreational diver considering my future training for Tec Diving. Thus far all training has been with PADI (with instructors who are DSAT/TDI technical diving instructors also)and now MSD/DM.

PADI are about to launch their TecRec programme and my instructors rec I do not use TDI for future training.

I need some unbiased opinion from the experts please. :confused:

Pros: PADI system should know exactly what my experience is to date based on their traing programmes and therefore their programme should plug the knowledge gaps?
Cons: PADI is Rec not Tec ~ so can I be sure of the best learning experience?

Advise would be welcomed.
Gato

[Red Sea Shadow]

PADI/DSAT TecRec has been there for a while. Now they divided it into several courses. Is there anything new other than that?

Plugging the knowledge gaps is mainly about the instructor not the agency.

[AndrewA]

I am sure that you will get lots of conflicting advice as to which agency to train with. In technical diving it is the quality of the instruction rather than the "brand name" that is important. I see you are in the UK so there are many good tech instructors like Mark Powell or Jack Ingle. I did my entry level tech training with Gary Fox at Dive Action in Cornwall during my summer holidays a few years ago and can recommend him.

[Red Sea Shadow]

In technical diving it is the quality of the instruction rather than the "brand name" that is important.
Ditto.

And it's not only in technical diving. Even in recreational diving it's the instructor not the agency.

[TSandM]

My advice would be to do some research, and figure out what it is you want to learn.

I would also talk to any prospective instructor and ask him about his background -- How long has he been diving? What kinds of dives does he do? How much technical diving has he done? Does he dive outside of teaching? And best of all, unless you are considering an instructor far from you, see if you can go for a dive either with him or with some of his technically trained students, and look at their skills and see if that's what you want.

Even in my little corner of the world, tech instruction ranges from teaching students to control their buoyancy for deco stops by hanging on the anchor line, to requiring folks to stay within a one foot buoyancy window while hovering and managing emergencies. I'm not saying one is bad and the other is good (the truth may be somewhere in the middle) but you need to decide which end of the spectrum looks better to you, and find an instructor who matches your needs.

[NWGratefulDiver]

PADI are about to launch their TecRec programme and my instructors rec I do not use TDI for future training.


Did they give you any reasons for making such a recommendation?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[netmage]

The Agency has little to do w/ the quality of instruction you receive; only the quality of instruction materials used to deliver the class, the standards to which you are evaluated, and the timeliness of issuing c-cards after the class.

PADI is to diving (publishing), what Dell is to computers (manufacturing). Certainly not innovators, or the best quality. Just the best at squeezing the almighty dollar out of the pipeline and your pocket. :)

Figure out where you want to take your diving, and find a good instructor actively doing the kind of stuff you want to do... Everything else will figure itself out.

-Tim

[halemanō]

I need some unbiased opinion from the experts please. :confused:

So those guys were busy? :confused:

[ScubaInChicago]

"How to find the best instructor for you"

YVvZgGBVtaE

[dbulmer]

El Gato,
Why don't you have a chat with Andy Hayhurst?

Dales Divers Technical Courses (http://www.dalesdivers.co.uk/Technical-Courses.htm)

Andy has a very good reputation and he's not that far away from you.

[shellbackdiver1]

The best agency will always be the one you choose.

[Meister481]

When it comes to tech instruction, it's 100% the quality of the instructor. Choose your instructor carefully, the agency they teach through will be decided for you at that point. Many Tech instructors teach through several agencies and can accommodate your need to expand your card collection.

There are nuances between agencies, but they are similar as far as limitations and equipment requirements. Your instructor will get you ready and show you what you need to have/do.

[mania]

Ditto to those whos tressed the fact that it's instructor that matters, not the agency.
Some time ago Walter published a list of questions to the instructor, but I'm completly hopeless with SB search engine. it was few years ago - still very valid post.

[AndyNZ]

PADI is to diving (publishing), what Dell is to computers (manufacturing). Certainly not innovators, or the best quality. Just the best at squeezing the almighty dollar out of the pipeline and your pocket. :)

Got any actual data to back that up? Or is it just the same old drivel that actually has no grounding in fact?

[Jim Ernst]

PADI is to diving (publishing), what Dell is to computers (manufacturing). Certainly not innovators, or the best quality. Just the best at squeezing the almighty dollar out of the pipeline and your pocket.


Here we go again,Netmage, Can you you back that up with any facts..??

It is not the Agency, It is all on the Instructor!!

[Colliam7]

I'm a recreational diver considering my future training for Tec Diving. Thus far all training has been with PADI (with instructors who are DSAT/TDI technical diving instructors also)and now MSD/DM. PADI are about to launch their TecRec programme and my instructors rec I do not use TDI for future training. Three points:
1. As several have mentioned, PADI is not at all new to technical dive training. They have offered a DSAT TecRec program for a number of years. I have taken the Tec Level 1, Tec Deep, and Tec Trimix courses, and found them to be excellent! I also believe the particular instructor made a BIG difference in the quality of my course. And, he even acknowledged that the particular PADI Tec Instructor he originally learned from was TERRIBLE. So, even a good program can be compromised by a poor instructor, and not all instructors are the same, even if they are certified by the same agency (unfortunately).
2. There ARE differences between agencies in tec training, both in terms of the actual content and the sequence in which you are introduced to content. In some cases, you will need to complete several courses to get everything you want, and in others it may be available in one course. That is neither good nor bad, just a suggestion to compare the content and sequence of whatever programs you consider.
3. The new evolution of the PADI technical training program attempts to address 3 issues. a) It makes the training more 'bite sized'. Instead of two longer courses (Level 1 and Deep), it divides the material into 3 course segments (Tec 40, Tec 45 and Tec 50), which might make it easier to complete. Yes, the cynics will say it also increases the fees charged, but that was not the primary purpose. Rather, PADI recognized that the potential time commitment of two longer courses was a negative incentive for some potential students; b) PADI realized that the 'PADI' brand had broader awareness and more appeal than the 'DSAT' brand, and elected to bring their technical training under the PADI brand going forward; c) PADI has made a conscientious effort to respond to comments, indeed criticisms, leveled at their program in the past, and address some of them in the new configuration. For example, in the DSAT Tec Deep course (still available through the first half of 2010), trimix was not allowed for either student OR instructor, which caused concern about dives to as deep as 165 feet, on air. In the new program, trimix is allowed on the last, deepest dive.

I would not necessarily agree that PADI is not innovative. But, by their own admission, they generally do not attempt to be the 'first' agency to move into a new area. Rather, they take a more conservative 'wait and see' approach before developing training opportunities in an emerging area of diving, particularly where they do not believe they have the in-house expertise required to develop a quality program. However, even in that case, they may still support individual instructors in the development of distinctive specialities (e.g. most recently, sidemount instruction).
Some time ago Walter published a list of questions to the instructor, but I'm completly hopeless with SB search engine. it was few years ago - still very valid post.Here is a link to the questions in Walter's post that I think you are referring to - this is a Sticky under the 'New Divers and Those Considering Diving' forum. They are generally oriented toward OW training, and may not be as directly applicable here - but are excellent, nonetheless. How to find an excellent SCUBA class (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/new-divers-those-considering-diving/287780-how-find-excellent-scuba-class.html)

[elan]

PADI is to diving (publishing), what Dell is to computers (manufacturing). Certainly not innovators, or the best quality. Just the best at squeezing the almighty dollar out of the pipeline and your pocket. :)


Joking aside, unlike all "innovators" like Toshiba, Compaq, Sony my DELL has been working for 4 years now w/o single hardware problem.

Compaq had few failures over 1.5 years after which the motherboard has died completely. 3 of 4 Sony comps has developed major problems within 3-8 months. 2 Toshiba were constantly having overheating problems. :)

My wife's old DELL is running as a Solaris home server 24/7 for 4 month now.

[mikemill]

PADI is to diving (publishing), what Dell is to computers (manufacturing). Certainly not innovators, or the best quality. Just the best at squeezing the almighty dollar out of the pipeline and your pocket. :)

Actually that does highlight a good point. Dells aren't the best or most powerful computers. But they produce an affordable computer that is good quality for the price. Most dives are the same way. They don't need or want to be the best diver in the world. They just want to enjoy diving. Just like most people don't need an uber computer, they just want to be able to surf the web (aka look at porn).

[netmage]

Got any actual data to back that up? Or is it just the same old drivel that actually has no grounding in fact?


Here we go again,Netmage, Can you you back that up with any facts..??

Why was PADI so late with a Technical Program....?
Why does PADI now find itself compelled to offer a Cave curriculum...?

The answer is simple - to sell more training materials...

[DCBC]

The best agency will always be the one you choose.

Unfortunately this is too often the case; unless the individual gains experience outside any one organization, stands back and opens their perspective. Time and experience is a strong defense against smoke and mirrors. :)

[mikemill]

Why was PADI so late with a Technical Program....?
Why does PADI now find itself compelled to offer a Cave curriculum...?

The answer is simple - to sell more training materials...

By that logic any new class that any agency adds is simply because they want to sell more training materials.

[JeffG]

It is not the Agency, It is all on the Instructor!!

and that’s not 100% true either.

Some agencies have clearly defined standards and classes, but little room for "creativity" (Think GUE) and others have standards that are not so clearly defined, but allow a lot of instructor flexibility. This setup allows for some very incredibly good instructors, but also for some incredibly bad instructors. (Think TDI)

Agency has something to do with it.

Mind you, it rarely matters. Usually its the first instructor the diver meets becomes the "good" instructor and any instructors that disagree with him/her are the "bad" instructors.

[carrielsal]

This year I was in the same dilemma as I decided to pursue tech training. I decided on the SSI XTR training. The number one reason for me was the instructor. Another factor, which was not an influencing decision for me, is the books. The books aren't cheap. My understanding is that with other agencies there is a separate book for every cert class. SSI has one book with several chapters that covers all certs.

[Meister481]

Got any actual data to back that up? Or is it just the same old drivel that actually has no grounding in fact?

The owner of the shop I work out of wrote a Nitrox distinctive specialty, is was forbidden immediately and they told him they would never allow the use of that Voodoo Gas. 6 months later they had their own specialty for Nitrox. Soon after they did this they were threatening his 5 star status because he taught IANTD Nitrox instead of PADI. BTW: IANTD nitrox is a much better class, but we will allow the student to choose if they want to do extra work to achieve the IANTD cert. They usually choose PADI because it is better know and it's a shorter class.


Why was PADI so late with a Technical Program....?
Why does PADI now find itself compelled to offer a Cave curriculum...?

The answer is simple - to sell more training materials...

Once PADI saw that they were losing market share they changed the curriculum and became a driving force in Nitrox. The same is true with Public Safety divers, PADI is now pushing this aspect of the market because it is a sustainable niche within the market, and will provide revenue for themselves/shops.

It's all about market share! Naui is now for profit and is looking to take market share from PADI. The rep is constantly inquiring about our shop changing over and teaching Naui as well as the the two agencies we carry currently. I'm afraid Naui is a little late, but it's good to see them reaching out when some shops are moving away from PADI.

PADI is the world largest certification agency for scuba, and they are geniuses within the field. They know how to market and administer standards to try to make a class appealing and worthwhile to everyone who takes it. Unfortunately, Tech diving isn't conducive to rigid standards since it has been taught as a fringe discipline for several years. I will say that the PADI materials for the DSAT programs are good, well written and useful. I'm not sure I like their proprietary formulas, but it works.

Once again I'm driven to make the point that the best GUE, IANTD, TDI and PADI instructors will produce excellent Technical divers, so find the instructor that is active diving and talk to some students. If a student tells you the class was an easy pass, look elsewhere. A good instructor will challenge each and every student to instill the fact that there is a continual learning process.

Hopefully this put an end to the PADI bashing, because it's futile. PADI is here to stay and they are good at what they do, so you had might as well get used to it. They may not be the perfect agency, but they do support their instructors with the best support media in the industry. Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad.

[Rhone Man]

Arguably the most knowledgeable instructor I have ever met was Scott Christopher up in Seattle (the man is a real fountain of knowledge, but don't tell him I said that).

When we finished the course, he basically said (in not so many words) - right, you have had the training; which agency would you like me to issue your card through? Much to his chagrin I chose TDI. Same piece of plastic, but with another instructor maybe I don't learn nearly as much.

I see some logic to what JeffG says - I think the really good instructors don't find themselves trammelled by standards, but weak standards can sometimes allow weak instructors to persevere.

[Rhone Man]

Why was PADI so late with a Technical Program....?
Why does PADI now find itself compelled to offer a Cave curriculum...?

I actually have huge respect for organisations who can say "you know what, we got that wrong - let's fix it." Only bloody minded people stick to decisions which are later shown to be bad calls.

As the great Dr Samuel Johnson once said: "When the facts change, sir, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

:focus:

[TSandM]

There are nuances between agencies, but they are similar as far as limitations and equipment requirements.

This actually isn't true. Having sat through an elucidation of the PADI Tec/Rec Tec program last night, I was quite struck by how much training (and how deep) the program has before it introduces any helium. This is one of the BIG differences in technical programs. Some agencies don't do any technical diving without trimix, and others don't do any trimix until the bitter end.

[mania]

Here is a link to the questions in Walter's post that I think you are referring to - this is a Sticky under the 'New Divers and Those Considering Diving' forum. They are generally oriented toward OW training, and may not be as directly applicable here - but are excellent, nonetheless. How to find an excellent SCUBA class (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/new-divers-those-considering-diving/287780-how-find-excellent-scuba-class.html)

Many thanks! That's exactly what I had in mind (meanwhile Walter send me a link as well - thanks Walter). I still think that some of these questions are also aplicable to a recreation diver looking for a technical training.
BTW - I'm looking for years for a definition what is technical diving
:D :D :D

[Rhone Man]

BTW - I'm looking for years for a definition what is technical diving

That will always inspire a pretty fruity debate on SB, but I always like the Wikipedia definition(s):

Technical diving - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_diving#Definition_of_.27technical_diving .27)

[Rainer]

Helium is very, very scary. Best to leave it for balloons.


This actually isn't true. Having sat through an elucidation of the PADI Tec/Rec Tec program last night, I was quite struck by how much training (and how deep) the program has before it introduces any helium. This is one of the BIG differences in technical programs. Some agencies don't do any technical diving without trimix, and others don't do any trimix until the bitter end.

[mania]

That will always inspire a pretty fruity debate on SB,

Yeah I know. With no clear definition so far
:D

[Meister481]

This actually isn't true. Having sat through an elucidation of the PADI Tec/Rec Tec program last night, I was quite struck by how much training (and how deep) the program has before it introduces any helium. This is one of the BIG differences in technical programs. Some agencies don't do any technical diving without trimix, and others don't do any trimix until the bitter end.

PADI, TDI and IANTD teach air and nitrox down to 165-180 feet. Seems pretty similar to me.

GUE teaches Helium earlier than the others, but that is just a nuance IMO. I like that they do that, but I'm not sure it's neccesary.

[TSandM]

Well, I don't know if it's an agency policy, but my husband's NAUI Tech class was 21/35 for 150 feet as well.

[DCBC]

Helium is very, very scary. Best to leave it for balloons.

It's only another gas; nothing scary once it's understood. :)

[Meister481]

I have no experience with NAUI, but I did look it up. They use He early as well, I still like it, but unfortunately not many divers I know use mix when they go to 150'. The availability and expense of mix is a substantial issue. In an Ideal world I think the use of He would benefit tech training, but preparing the diver for real world situations is the key to training safe divers.

If A diver is trained to dive to 150' and gets on the boat to dive a wreck at 150', the captain will let them dive regardless if they have mix or not.

I have no issue diving to 150 on Nitrox, I've done it and with the proper training and practice it's safe. Not for everyone, but it's what I know.

[Jim Ernst]

and that’s not 100% true either.

Some agencies have clearly defined standards and classes, but little room for "creativity" (Think GUE) and others have standards that are not so clearly defined, but allow a lot of instructor flexibility. This setup allows for some very incredibly good instructors, but also for some incredibly bad instructors. (Think TDI)

Agency has something to do with it.

Mind you, it rarely matters. Usually its the first instructor the diver meets becomes the "good" instructor and any instructors that disagree with him/her are the "bad" instructors.

Yup... Good Point Jeff, I didn't stop to consider the facts from that stand point!!

[LiteHedded]

Helium is very, very scary. Best to leave it for balloons.

agreed. makes you talk funny.
plus helium is for sissies.

[Rainer]

It doesn't bring the "macho".


agreed. makes you talk funny.
plus helium is for sissies.

[boulderjohn]

That will always inspire a pretty fruity debate on SB, but I always like the Wikipedia definition(s):

Technical diving - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_diving#Definition_of_.27technical_diving .27)


Yeah I know. With no clear definition so far
:D

To be honest, I am pretty satisfied with the first sentences in the PADI and NOAA definitions cited above. They elaborate, but to me this sums it up pretty well:


PADI: "diving other than conventional commercial or recreational diving that takes divers beyond recreational diving limits."

NOAA: "Technical diving is a term used to describe all diving methods that exceed the limits imposed on depth and/or immersion time for recreational scuba diving."

Both definitions rely on a scuba-specific use of the term "recreational," as opposed to a more common lay definition used elsewhere in the thread (I.E., not professional or commercial). In scuba, "recreational" usually refers to diving done within the limits defined by agencies in OW instruction.

When we teach OW divers, we tell them limits of depth and time. We tell them not to go into overhead environments. We tell them that if they wish to get into those areas, they need further training to be safe. I think that, by default, "technical diving" has come to mean all the diving done outside the limits defined for recreational diving.

I know that is not universally accepted by any means, but it works for me.

[Rhone Man]

Astonishing - several clear cut chances to lurch into the traditional Helium vs Deep Air debate, and no one grabbed any of them...

:focus:

[Peter Guy]

I must say I'm almost always amused by the people who say He is "too expensive" for "entry level tech" dives. What does that mean, "too expensive?"

This past weekend my wife and I drove 150+ miles to Vancouver to do some diving in a new place (for us). We decided to use 25/25 in 100's for the dive with the planned max depth of 130 FSW. If my math is correct, that meant we had 50 ft3 of He per set which cost us about $35 (I know that's cheap, but let's call it $50 for an average fill).

As it turned out, I came down with a cold and worried that my ears might not clear and Lynne mused whether she would do a dive anyway with some "recreational" divers because she had 25/25 and it was "so expensive." When asked how much breakfast cost.....

The point is, I really think people fixate on the cost of the gas as opposed to the whole cost of the dive/diving -- the drive (300 miles), lodging (for us, two nights), meals (for this dive, two dinners, two breakfasts), charter fees, etc. The He cost is a small % of the total cost -- and what we get for it is a very clear mind, ease of breathing and a squeaky voice!

Yes, He is more expensive than Air -- but hey, that's diving!

[mdb]

Rhone Man: No worries mate. I'm sure some squeaky voiced Helium diver will be on soon. I'm a deep air fan myself, just me.

I do like to see all the gas mixers and their comments. Something to learn every time.

[elan]

I must say I'm almost always amused by the people who say He is "too expensive" for "entry level tech" dives. What does that mean, "too expensive?"

This past weekend my wife and I drove 150+ miles to Vancouver to do some diving in a new place (for us). We decided to use 25/25 in 100's for the dive with the planned max depth of 130 FSW. If my math is correct, that meant we had 50 ft3 of He per set which cost us about $35 (I know that's cheap, but let's call it $50 for an average fill).

As it turned out, I came down with a cold and worried that my ears might not clear and Lynne mused whether she would do a dive anyway with some "recreational" divers because she had 25/25 and it was "so expensive." When asked how much breakfast cost.....

The point is, I really think people fixate on the cost of the gas as opposed to the whole cost of the dive/diving -- the drive (300 miles), lodging (for us, two nights), meals (for this dive, two dinners, two breakfasts), charter fees, etc. The He cost is a small % of the total cost -- and what we get for it is a very clear mind, ease of breathing and a squeaky voice!

Yes, He is more expensive than Air -- but hey, that's diving!


In Europe He can cost 4 times as much as it is in the US. Some resorts or areas may not even have it. Spending 200 bucks for a dive to 130 ft can be a bit overkill.

[netmage]

I have no experience with NAUI, but I did look it up. They use He early as well, I still like it, but unfortunately not many divers I know use mix when they go to 150'. The availability and expense of mix is a substantial issue. In an Ideal world I think the use of He would benefit tech training, but preparing the diver for real world situations is the key to training safe divers.

If A diver is trained to dive to 150' and gets on the boat to dive a wreck at 150', the captain will let them dive regardless if they have mix or not.

I have no issue diving to 150 on Nitrox, I've done it and with the proper training and practice it's safe. Not for everyone, but it's what I know.

NAUI's Helitrox, and the bundling of it w/ Adv Nitrox/Deco as a 'Tech 1' type offering is only a few years old.

Personally - I prefer it... I bank 21/35, and that gets me thru 99% of my diving.

[TSandM]

In Europe He can cost 4 times as much as it is in the US. Some resorts or areas may not even have it. Spending 200 bucks for a dive to 130 ft can be a bit overkill.

It's like here, where I decided against a trip to Canada last night because there's no Nitrox available there. We all make risk-benefit/comfort decisions about our diving. For me, it's clear -- I'm stupid enough in the top 100 feet, and I have no desire at all to find out how stupid I could be deeper than that :) If helium were unavailable or prohibitively expensive, I'd just limit my diving. But other people can and have made other decisions.

[Rhone Man]

In Europe He can cost 4 times as much as it is in the US. Some resorts or areas may not even have it. Spending 200 bucks for a dive to 130 ft can be a bit overkill.

And it is cheap in Europe compared to other parts of the world. Oh bugger, we are starting.

So, PADI Tec diving courses, huh?

[adamtodd]

I agree it is not the agency, but the instructor. However standards differ. I am not sure what the PADI standard is for Tech Diving. I do feel that it is a little to easy to qualify for PADI OWSI- I really hope this isn't the case for the TECH program.

Also, I think the instructor's role is only to start the training process. Teaching good practices and of coarse safety. This training should continue after the coarse is completed. Forever.

[Meister481]

Astonishing - several clear cut chances to lurch into the traditional Helium vs Deep Air debate, and no one grabbed any of them...

:focus:

Give it time.

For a garage mixer it's not bad, if you have to buy a helium mix of some sort from a reputable shop it gets quite costly. I know I'm not going to charge someone regular fill price when I have to have a Haskel and an extra bottle of he in the shop. :D

[Red Sea Shadow]

I agree it is not the agency, but the instructor. However standards differ. I am not sure what the PADI standard is for Tech Diving. I do feel that it is a little to easy to qualify for PADI OWSI- I really hope this isn't the case for the TECH program.
Actually to be a PADI/DSAT (Tech) instructor, you should be PADI MSDT (PADI OWSI + 5 specialty instructor + 25 c-cards issued) and have only the tech diver level training. There's no tech instructor training. It's just an administrative procedure.

[adamtodd]

Actually to be a PADI/DSAT (Tech) instructor, you should be PADI MSDT (PADI OWSI + 5 specialty instructor + 25 c-cards issued) and have only the tech diver level training. There's no tech instructor training. It's just an administrative procedure.

Wow. I just read the PADI Tech Intructor requirments, and your right... That's shocking.

[kanonfodr]

<begin mini rant>
We can debate standards, procedures, and gas mixes until we are blue in the face but has anyone asked the question that matters a little bit more in my mind than any of that other stuff: Does "X" program turn out quality divers?? Divers that you or I would want to dive with?? Has anybody on this thread received training from the agencies in question??

It doesn't matter if you've got the best curriculum in the world when your divers can't clear their mask without going to their knees or ballooning 15 feet in the water doing so. Has anyone dived with a PADI/DSAT/TechRec/WTFever diver?? More than one??

Case in point; an instructor at the LDS I usually get my fills from is a PADI/DSAT-trained Technical Diver. He dives a backplate/wing with a long hose regulator setup and doubled tanks. While it may or may not be Hogarthian, DIR, or anything else (haven't seen the setup personally), a hog rig is pretty much the standard kit across technical diving, AFAIK. It simply gets modified for that agency/instructor/class/diver to fit their needs.

I'm not necessarily agency-bash, or defend against such, but it seems that we are only looking at the materials used to present the information rather than how the divers getting that training ultimately perform in the water which I think is also important. Granted, the instructor is a large part of that information exchange, but there are extremes on both sides of the instructor/agency equation that can prevent one from surmounting the shortcomings of the other.

<end mini rant, hope I didn't anger anyone>

Peace,
Greg

[Rhone Man]

Actually to be a PADI/DSAT (Tech) instructor, you should be PADI MSDT (PADI OWSI + 5 specialty instructor + 25 c-cards issued) and have only the tech diver level training. There's no tech instructor training. It's just an administrative procedure.

I think you also have to have done 25 decompression dives yourself, ie. you can't whip straight from doing the Tec courses to teaching the Tec courses.

[Red Sea Shadow]

I think you also have to have done 25 decompression dives yourself, ie. you can't whip straight from doing the Tec courses to teaching the Tec courses.
As far as I remember they were 20 deco dives and that was for being a Trimix instructor. However, PADI tech program has undergone some changes so I'm not sure what the pre-requisites are now.

[Colliam7]

Actually to be a PADI/DSAT (Tech) instructor, you should be PADI MSDT (PADI OWSI + 5 specialty instructor + 25 c-cards issued) and have only the tech diver level training. There's no tech instructor training. It's just an administrative procedure.No, that's not exactly the case. It is a little more involved than that. Under the 'old' DSAT system, you could a) take a Tec Instructor training course, OR b) apply directly to PADI to become a DSAT Tech Deep Instructor, as long as you met the following requirements:
1. Be a current, renewed PADI MSDT
2. Be a PADI Enriched Air Instructor
3. Be PADI Deep Diver Specialty Instructor
4. Be certified as a DSAT Tec Deep Diver or equivalent
5. Have Assisted with at least 2 DSAT Tec Deep Diver Courses or one Tec Level One and one Tec Deep Diver Course
6. Minimum of 270 logged dives, with at least 25 stage decompression dives that had a maximum depth deeper than 130 feet
7. Certified a total of 10 or more PADI Deep Divers and or PADI EANx divers (any combination is OK)
8. Successfully complete the Tec Deep Instructor Standards Exam and Tec Deep Instructor Theory and Practical Application Exam
9. Meet the peer review waterskill requirement listed on the DSAT Tec Deep Instructor Application through the attesting signature of a DSAT Tec Deep Instructor. (Basically you have to show you can do the skills that you will be teaching tec diver students - valve shutdowns, etc.)

So, I guess that direct application could be considered an administrative procedure, once you met all the requirements, which includes assisting in the teaching of a couple of Tec courses, and completing the exams, etc.

With the implementation of the new Tec 40/45/50 system, it is a little more complicated. You can still a) take the Tec Instructor training course OR b) apply directly, in which case you must:
1. Be a current, renewed PADI MSDT
2. Be a PADI Enriched Air Instructor
3. Be PADI Deep Diver Specialty Instructor
4. Be certified as a DSAT Tec 45 Diver (or equivalent from another organization)
5. Have a certification from another training organization as a Tec Instructor or higher.
6. Have at least 20 staged decompression dives in doubles
7. Have successfully completed the Tec Instructor exam
8. Have taught or assisted with 2 courses that qualify that qualify as meeting the requirements of the DSAT Tec 40 courses, or assisted with one DSAT Tec 40 course.

So, essentially, the only way to become a Tec Instructor going forward (after June 2010) will be to take the Tec Instructor training course, or already be a Tec Instructor in another organization.
Wow. I just read the PADI Tech Intructor requirments, and your right... That's shocking.What, specifically, is 'shocking'?

Perhaps, a problem in this approach, whether it involves PADI, NAUI, TDI, whatever agency, is that no system of standards or performance criteria is perfect. There is always the chance of 'pencil whipping', not every Instructor Evaluation examiner does an equally conscientious job of evaluating whether each candidate is a capable teacher, there really isn't a formal process in place for periodic performance-based recertification of instructors (or divers), and virtually every training organization produces, and apparently tolerates the continued presence of, at least some instructors that may not be entirely effective, capable or even marginally competent, notwithstanding all of our not-altogether-objective, self-congratulatory rhetoric about 'standards', and 'quality'.
it seems that we are only looking at the materials used to present the information rather than how the divers getting that training ultimately perform in the waterA good point. We actually do 'look' at that performance but I would venture to suggest that our 'looks' are often biased, and lacking in objective criteria for assessment. In any endeavor - dive training, high school teacher preparation, undergraduate education, health care delivery - it is easiest to evaluate Structure. Sometmes, we are so bold as to evaluate Process. But, to evaluate Outcome is difficult, expensive, and seldom pursued with any degree of sophistication.

[Red Sea Shadow]

So the second option under the new system is mainly a crossover for PADI MSDT or higher (since the candidate should have a Tec Instructor certificate from another agency)?

[DCBC]

... helium is for sissies.

How can you say such things? You kinda need it past 250' :-)

[Colliam7]

So the second option under the new system is mainly a crossover for PADI MSDT or higher (since the candidate should have a Tec Instructor certificate from another agency)?Yes. And, PADI is marketing it as just such an option.

[Colliam7]

This is one of the BIG differences in technical programs. Some agencies don't do any technical diving without trimix, and others don't do any trimix until the bitter end.A very good example of differences, Lynne. And, PADI only recently changed their standards to allow helium on Dive 12 (last and deepest) of the Tec Deep course. Personally, I suspect that shift will continue to evolve, and helium will eventually be allowed in all PADI Tec courses, beginning at Tec 40. But, that will take time.
PADI, TDI and IANTD teach air and nitrox down to 165-180 feet. Seems pretty similar to me. GUE teaches Helium earlier than the others, but that is just a nuance IMO. I like that they do that, but I'm not sure it's neccesary.Well, not exactly accurate. PADI teaches air only to 165', which is deep enough, certainly. And, some would consider GUE's early inclusion of helium to be a major difference, not a subtle nuance. I do not necessarily, but it was such a contentious issue that it may have pushed PADI in the direction of incorporating the helium option in Tec Deep, on Dive 12 as noted above.

There are a number of SB threads that debate the relative conservatism of the algorithms used in different dive computers. Suunto, in particular, sems to attract more than a little criticism, some of it quite vigorous, on the basis of how conservative the algorithms used in their computers are perceived to be. In some ways, PADI is the 'Suunto' of dive training. They are conservative. They didn't move into nitrox quickly (as several posters have noted), they didn't move into technical training as early as some, they don't allow helium as early as some, only now are they moving toward Cave training. Like Suunto, they are not conspicuous risk takers. So, if someone wants truly 'cutting edge' - the absolute frontier-moving training course, they should probably look to an agency other than PADI. That is not a criticism or compliment to PADI or any other agency, and doesn't mean one agency is 'best' or 'worst', going back to the topic that strated this thread. Rather, there are some differences that divers should consider in selecting which agency to train through.

[IDS_Bill]

Actually to be a PADI/DSAT (Tech) instructor, you should be PADI MSDT (PADI OWSI + 5 specialty instructor + 25 c-cards issued) and have only the tech diver level training. There's no tech instructor training. It's just an administrative procedure.

Not TRUE - Jesus, doesn't anyone research anything before they post anymore???

[IDS_Bill]

Seriously, HOW many times do we have to go through this painful multithread collection of differing opinions? In the end, It is the INSTRUCTOR!!!!! I am about ready to crossover to TDI due to this Tec40/45/50 crap but in the end, it is the instructor who makes or breaks the training.

Case 1: You have an agency with wonderful standards and procedures but the instructor cuts corners, is sloppy, sets a poor example and essentially sells you a cert.

Case 2: You have an agency who is missing some things and could improve their procedures but the instructor says, "Hey, this is satisfying standards, but I would like to show you some additional techniques and relate some practical experience that I have picked up over the years". NOTE - you are NOT increasing the requirements to complete the cert (bad) you are increasing the amount of knowledge passed on to the student.

One of the worst things I have seen lately is instructors who stick to the minimum standards to slip their students through. Sure the minimum depth for a final dive might be 120 but is that the same as hitting 165 and really getting the effects of narcosis, decompression requirements, etc? (Just one of many examples). I'll shut up now.

Again - Instructor Instructor Instructor!!!

[Peter Guy]

IDS Bill, it is actually a little worse than what you write regarding research because the poster you quoted, after writing what you highlighted, wrote:

However, PADI tech program has undergone some changes so I'm not sure what the pre-requisites are now.
As one of my favorite political bloggers would write, "Two posters in one!" First he says one thing and then says another.

[netmage]

I rest my case.... :)

[Red Sea Shadow]

As one of my favorite political bloggers would write, "Two posters in one!" First he says one thing and then says another.
The thing he said was valid for the old system. He said another because he doesn't have more info about the new system.

[Red Sea Shadow]

Not TRUE - Jesus, doesn't anyone research anything before they post anymore???
Posted that from my memory as I did the research long time ago. Are you sure it was never like that before?

[IDS_Bill]

Posted that from my memory as I did the research long time ago. Are you sure it was never like that before?

Who knows. In the old days you could get your instructor rating from any agency for $10 and a bologna sandwich it seems. When I got mine, I followed the Instructor course, had multiple dives and classroom (7 for trimix, can't remember for tecdeep) and took the tests. I know there are people who know people who cut corners but that takes me back to the instructor quality comment. I know one guy who is bragging that he will be a tec instructor in the Spring but is not even a Tec Certified diver yet. Don't get me started on that one!

[SailNaked]

naui - heliox-~1k
trimix diver $?
Padi
Intro
tec 40
tec 45
tec 50
tec trimix 65
trimix diver
Tdi
Adv Nx/Deco ~600
(ext range if you want).
Trimix ~300+gas
Adv Trimix $?
others?

I know it is the instructor, but serioiusly 6 classes to cover the same material others cover in 3 (i did not look up cost for the series but I'll assume it is more than everyone else.)

[IDS_Bill]

naui - heliox-~1k
trimix diver $?
Padi
Intro
tec 40
tec 45
tec 50
tec trimix 65
trimix diver
Tdi
Adv Nx/Deco ~600
(ext range if you want).
Trimix ~300+gas
Adv Trimix $?
others?

I know it is the instructor, but serioiusly 6 classes to cover the same material others cover in 3 (i did not look up cost for the series but I'll assume it is more than everyone else.)

Check your TDI courses - Adv Nitrox, Ext. Range, Deco Proc, Trimix, Adv Trimix.

Also no intro class for DSAT. It's not a coincidence that DSAT is the same number of classes as TDI now. It is a PITA for the instructor now though. Tec40/45/50 are done as one class as with the old TecDeep curriculum.

[Red Sea Shadow]

Check your TDI courses - Adv Nitrox, Ext. Range, Deco Proc, Trimix, Adv Trimix.

Also no intro class for DSAT. It's not a coincidence that DSAT is the same number of classes as TDI now. It is a PITA for the instructor now though. Tec40/45/50 are done as one class as with the old TecDeep curriculum.
But you are not obligated to do both Extended Range and Trimix. Only one of them is required to begin the Advanced Trimix course.

TDI Intro to Tech is not an obligatory class either.

[SailNaked]

Adv Nitrox and Deco are usually done together, I actually had a hard time finding anyone that would teach Deco alone, and extended range is optional.

cost of Naui or TDI is about the same via a different path (early He). no idea what all 6 or 5 Padi courses are but if they are about the same and THE INSTRUCTOR IS GOOD then I see no reason not to break it up that way.

[Red Sea Shadow]

Also to participate in a PADI Tec 40 class you should be holding one more license, which is the Deep Diver Specialty.

[Red Sea Shadow]

Adv Nitrox and Deco are usually done together, I actually had a hard time finding anyone that would teach Deco alone, and extended range is optional.
I teach Advanced Nitrox alone, mainly to people not interested in changing their recreational gear setup (BCD I mean).

[IDS_Bill]

Also to participate in a PADI Tec 40 class you should be holding one more license, which is the Deep Diver Specialty.

Not sure what you mean by one or more license but you have to have your Deep and Enriched Air specialties before starting Tec40

[Red Sea Shadow]

Not sure what you mean by one or more license but you have to have your Deep and Enriched Air specialties before starting Tec40
By one more license I mean the Deep Diver Specialty. In comparison with TDI you don't need it.

[M_Bipartitus]

Nearest PADI/DSAT shop to me lists about ~$400, $500, $600 for Tec 40, 45, and 50. They also mention a small discount for the second two if the have the books already (presumably from the previous course). IIRC, their prices include gas fills, not that they would be that much pre-trimix.

[IDS_Bill]

Nearest PADI/DSAT shop to me lists about ~$400, $500, $600 for Tec 40, 45, and 50. They also mention a small discount for the second two if the have the books already (presumably from the previous course). IIRC, their prices include gas fills, not that they would be that much pre-trimix.

If you are determining your technical diving education by price then you need a priority adjustment.......

[M_Bipartitus]

I'm not, but it was a point of discussion above.

[Colliam7]

Case 2: You have an agency who is missing some things and could improve their procedures but the instructor says, "Hey, this is satisfying standards, but I would like to show you some additional techniques and relate some practical experience that I have picked up over the years". NOTE - you are NOT increasing the requirements to complete the cert (bad) you are increasing the amount of knowledge passed on to the student.In general, I would view this behavior as indicative of a very good instructor.
One of the worst things I have seen lately is instructors who stick to the minimum standards to slip their students through. Sure the minimum depth for a final dive might be 120 but is that the same as hitting 165 and really getting the effects of narcosis, decompression requirements, etc? (Just one of many examples).But, a very pertinent example in this discussion! It is valuable for a student to gain as much controlled experience as standards allow, not merely settle for the minimum, unless there truly are extentuating circumstances. When I took the Deep Specialty, we were diving a wall in Roatan and I remember descending to exactly 130 ft - the depth limit for the final dive, and hovering there. I wasn't anxious to go to 131, but I wanted to experience 130, to know how it affected me. Likewise on Dive 12 in Tec Deep, I went to 165' when I could have stopped at the top of the van (Forty Fathom) and easily met the minimum depth of 150'. But, I wanted to see what I felt like at 165'. I don't believe this is Darwin Award behavior - it was consistent with course standards, it was done in the controlled environment of the course (the instructor was the same in both cases and he knew why I was doing what I was doing and agreed). IN OW classes, I try to allow student divers to experience the maximum allowable depths, thermoclines, etc., to give them as broad an experience as is reasonable and safe. To me, that is a positive aspect of the PADI system. There are standards which must be met, but the instructor does have certain flexibility in providing an instructional offering that is safe, responsible, and valuiable to the student.

[Rhone Man]

Likewise on Dive 12 in Tec Deep, I went to 165' when I could have stopped at the top of the van (Forty Fathom) and easily met the minimum depth of 150'. But, I wanted to see what I felt like at 165'. I don't believe this is Darwin Award behavior - it was consistent with course standards, it was done in the controlled environment of the course

Agree completely. When I did my TDI Extended Range 'deep' dive, going down to about 165 feet I felt good, in control, aware. By the time we hit 180 feet I had tunnel vision and serious paranoia. Very glad I made that discovery in the controlled environment on the course with an experienced instructor.

Contrast that to my PADI Deep Diver specialty, where we hit a max depth of 78' and I didn't learn a damn thing about the effects of narcosis.

There are qualifications and educations, and they do not always overlap.

[Meister481]

A very good example of differences, Lynne. And, PADI only recently changed their standards to allow helium on Dive 12 (last and deepest) of the Tec Deep course. Personally, I suspect that shift will continue to evolve, and helium will eventually be allowed in all PADI Tec courses, beginning at Tec 40. But, that will take time.Well, not exactly accurate. PADI teaches air only to 165', which is deep enough, certainly. And, some would consider GUE's early inclusion of helium to be a major difference, not a subtle nuance. I do not necessarily, but it was such a contentious issue that it may have pushed PADI in the direction of incorporating the helium option in Tec Deep, on Dive 12 as noted above.

There are a number of SB threads that debate the relative conservatism of the algorithms used in different dive computers. Suunto, in particular, sems to attract more than a little criticism, some of it quite vigorous, on the basis of how conservative the algorithms used in their computers are perceived to be. In some ways, PADI is the 'Suunto' of dive training. They are conservative. They didn't move into nitrox quickly (as several posters have noted), they didn't move into technical training as early as some, they don't allow helium as early as some, only now are they moving toward Cave training. Like Suunto, they are not conspicuous risk takers. So, if someone wants truly 'cutting edge' - the absolute frontier-moving training course, they should probably look to an agency other than PADI. That is not a criticism or compliment to PADI or any other agency, and doesn't mean one agency is 'best' or 'worst', going back to the topic that strated this thread. Rather, there are some differences that divers should consider in selecting which agency to train through.

Thanks, looking at it in this light does show He as more than a nuance.


In general, I would view this behavior as indicative of a very good instructor.But, a very pertinent example in this discussion! It is valuable for a student to gain as much controlled experience as standards allow, not merely settle for the minimum, unless there truly are extentuating circumstances. When I took the Deep Specialty, we were diving a wall in Roatan and I remember descending to exactly 130 ft - the depth limit for the final dive, and hovering there. I wasn't anxious to go to 131, but I wanted to experience 130, to know how it affected me. Likewise on Dive 12 in Tec Deep, I went to 165' when I could have stopped at the top of the van (Forty Fathom) and easily met the minimum depth of 150'. But, I wanted to see what I felt like at 165'. I don't believe this is Darwin Award behavior - it was consistent with course standards, it was done in the controlled environment of the course (the instructor was the same in both cases and he knew why I was doing what I was doing and agreed). IN OW classes, I try to allow student divers to experience the maximum allowable depths, thermoclines, etc., to give them as broad an experience as is reasonable and safe. To me, that is a positive aspect of the PADI system. There are standards which must be met, but the instructor does have certain flexibility in providing an instructional offering that is safe, responsible, and valuiable to the student.

If the shop owner finds out you certified someone to 130 ft without taking them there, you're in for a reaming. This is the main reason I chose this shop to call home.


Agree completely. When I did my TDI Extended Range 'deep' dive, going down to about 165 feet I felt good, in control, aware. By the time we hit 180 feet I had tunnel vision and serious paranoia. Very glad I made that discovery in the controlled environment on the course with an experienced instructor.

Contrast that to my PADI Deep Diver specialty, where we hit a max depth of 78' and I didn't learn a damn thing about the effects of narcosis.

There are qualifications and educations, and they do not always overlap.

Once again, if you train to minimum standards, you can expect minimum results. I would hope the instructor would apologize to you instead of congratulating you.

[texdiveguy]

I have not read ALL these pages. But to the owner of the thread,,,,visit with differnt agencies and talk it up with the insructor. I found for my recreational through DM that PADI was good,,,then I got into technical and have found TDI to be good for me in my area. View my BIO for some course listings I have taken, I am not one to hoop around allot. It's all been quality and enjoyable.

[kanonfodr]

As an aside:

Talked to the local DSAT Tec diver I mentioned in a previous post. Asked if he'd be up for a dive. He told me that if I wanted to dive with him, I'd have to ride the boat and be a student. I politely told him to shove it ;) Looks like I'm finding a new place for air fills, too.

Peace,
Greg

[IDS_Bill]

As an aside:

Talked to the local DSAT Tec diver I mentioned in a previous post. Asked if he'd be up for a dive. He told me that if I wanted to dive with him, I'd have to ride the boat and be a student. I politely told him to shove it ;) Looks like I'm finding a new place for air fills, too.

Peace,
Greg

I'm confused - what was this about?

[JeffG]

I'm confused - what was this about?

He was just trying to get to know his local tech instructor, but was required to put another dollar in to do so.

[IDS_Bill]

He was just trying to get to know his local tech instructor, but was required to put another dollar in to do so.

That blows. I just meet in a casual setting to get to know potential students/clients so we can talk about everything. It is like a job interview afterall but I guess some instructors are pretty full of themselves...

[Meister481]

That blows. I just meet in a casual setting to get to know potential students/clients so we can talk about everything. It is like a job interview afterall but I guess some instructors are pretty full of themselves...

I was happy to see this update in the training bulletin for PADI.

General Standards and Procedures Training Standards Changed: “Prerequisites” to “Assessing Open Water Diver Readiness” In preparation for the dive and before Beginning open water dive skills, assess the diver’s skills and comfort level inwater and generally assess dive knowledge. If the diver exhibits lack of dive readiness, remediate before training progresses. Recent dive experience with the diver is acceptable as a screen if you are confident in the diver’s current knowledge level, inwater skills and comfort.

Rationale: More clearly defines preassessment and its intent. See article, Preassessment” in the Third Quarter 2009 The Undersea Journal.

Just because a person has a card doesn't mean they're ready for more training, and I for one would like to assure that they are ready for more before continuing. Especially at the Tech level, where basic skill competency is assumed.

[Rhone Man]

Grammar nazi point: is "remediate" a real word?

[IDS_Bill]

Grammar nazi point: is "remediate" a real word?

They told me it was when I was forced to repeat 3rd grade - JUST KIDDING!!! :D

[boulderjohn]

Grammar nazi point: is "remediate" a real word?

It depends upon your definition of a real word.

All languages constantly change, and they add new words regularly. Many current words were once not real words but eventually came into reality because people were using them. There is no such thing as an official regulator of language; if a word gets used enough, it will eventually appear in the dictionary. Warren G. Harding supposedly misread an election speech and gave us normalcy. Dwight Eisenhower gave us finalize. (Or so I am told.)

Remediate is a logical verb form of the noun remediation, although not formally recognized by my dictionary (or the Firefox spell check) at this time. I suspect it will be before too long. This is an example of one of the most frequent ways we get new words--people take an acceptable word (remediation) and intuitively apply common grammar principles to create a verb form.

[JeffG]

Grammar nazi point: is "remediate" a real word?

u9_kahA_wQo

[ajduplessis]

Like most responses to your question, it is all about the instructor. The better the instructor can transfer his knowledge and experience, the better for the student. I completed my training through IANTD here is South Africa, and would recommend them highly. We are blessed with some great instructors like Nuno Gomes (world deep dive record holder) Don Shirley, Buks Potgieter to name a few. These gentlemen live scuba and are extremely passionate.

It is this love for the sport that make them great instructors, and this is the bottom line. Passion, knowledge, skill and the ability to transfer this information are the key factors!