I see many people strugling or not with the range of diving style between DIR or not.
Some people call non-DIR divers "Stroke", now this does sound derogatory but that's not the reason I write, but I can understand that when diving caves, if you are not geared right , thinking right then you don't go in the water. or you don't dive with that person.
Many people are not 100%, but they are working towards it or have found the place that works for them, not every body dives caves but for ocean diving in recational depths some elements of DIR are not essential, yes yes I know some of you believe that all dives should be DIR.
So I'm wondering where the term "Stroke" came from, and what it actual means or refers too.
Is it meant to refer to any diver that is not using 100% DIR approved gear, ie if you are using everything (BP, long hoses etc) but do not use a jet fins are you a stroke?
=-)
Dryglove
July 16th, 2003, 12:35 AM
blackice once bubbled...
So I'm wondering where the term "Stroke" came from, and what it actual means or refers too.
Is it meant to refer to any diver that is not using 100% DIR approved gear, ie if you are using everything (BP, long hoses etc) but do not use a jet fins are you a stroke?
=-)
"stroke" basically means an unsafe diver wether it be his gear or his attitude or his diving style. I think the saying came from George Irvine although i may be wrong on that.
You will hardly ever hear that word on this board or a dir diver calling a non dir diver a stroke from this board. I have met several DIR divers in person and not once have i ever heard them call someone a stroke. That word seems to fly around like crazy on other boards though.
blackice
July 16th, 2003, 12:52 AM
Nod thanks, was just listening to George I, Bill M and Dan V and they used the term a few times , so was wonder where it came from .... not that it affects anything
Cheers,
=-)
drbill
July 16th, 2003, 12:57 AM
While I can certainly see some of the benefits of DIR diving, I tend to react very strongly to all "true believers" whether the belief be in a diving technique, a religion or anything else. Too rigid a mode of thinking to be truly adaptive IMHO.
I dive with DIR divers, but they are practical folks rather than true believers. I may buy a Halcyon backplate and wings, but will not buy into everything associated with the DIR philosophy unless it makes sense to my particular diving practices as a videographer and research scientist.
So any of you DIR folks that want to call me a stroke, ho right ahead. You've got some excellent ideas (as I understand them) but not any right to criticize other divers who choose different techniques that work for their particular diving needs.
Dr. Bill
cast55
July 16th, 2003, 01:02 AM
Parker Turner coined the term, which derives from "stroking" ones ego - essentially applying to someone who refuses to implement change despite logical reasoning leading to the conclusion that such change should be effected.
This has nothing to do with DIR or non-DIR, apart from the fact that, as used by divers, the term is indicative of an attitude which is contraindicated in DIR.
Dryglove
July 16th, 2003, 01:02 AM
blackice once bubbled...
Nod thanks, was just listening to George I, Bill M and Dan V and they used the term a few times , so was wonder where it came from .... not that it affects anything
Cheers,
=-)
Yea george seems to use it quite a bit especially on the boards he participates on but i have never met him in person so i have no idea what he is really like. But he is very vocal on his thoughts and straight to the point on the boards. A lot of the stuff he says makes a whole lot of sense. Maybe thats why he is president of the WKPP. :D
blackice
July 16th, 2003, 01:09 AM
lal7176 once bubbled...
Yea george seems to use it quite a bit especially on the boards he participates on but i have never met him in person so i have no idea what he is really like. But he is very vocal on his thoughts and straight to the point on the boards. A lot of the stuff he says makes a whole lot of sense. Maybe thats why he is president of the WKPP. :D
Too right, George has sure a rich history in the sport that I (a new-ish diver) would not have any issues with his use of the word.
In his game a stroke is something to watch out for and avoid at all costs, his game is high risk.
I too have never met him, was listening to audio of him speaking..
Scubaroo
July 16th, 2003, 01:10 AM
lal7176's definition is basically the same as mine - unsafe diver yada yada yada.
DIR and stroke are not mutually exclusive....
* People who claim to be DIR, yet do solo ice dives, are strokes
* People who claim to be DIR, and bash other people's equipment choices simply because it's not made by Apeks, DUI, Halcyon or is a JetFin clone, are wankers, which makes them strokes
* People who claim to be non-DIR, yet dive with well-thought out configurations, within the bounds of their training, and with a safety conscious attitude, are not strokes
that's my jar of pennies worth
Dryglove
July 16th, 2003, 01:11 AM
http://www.smiley.cy.net/cytech/stroke.html
Jonathan
July 16th, 2003, 01:18 AM
rower nearest the cox - or is it furthest? :D
Dryglove
July 16th, 2003, 01:24 AM
drbill once bubbled...
So any of you DIR folks that want to call me a stroke, ho right ahead.
Well im not a dir diver but ill give it a go
Well.....from one stroke(me) to another.......aghhhh i cant do it :D
blackice
July 16th, 2003, 02:49 AM
Scubaroo once bubbled...
lal7176's definition is basically the same as mine - unsafe diver yada yada yada.
DIR and stroke are not mutually exclusive....
* People who claim to be DIR, yet do solo ice dives, are strokes
* People who claim to be DIR, and bash other people's equipment choices simply because it's not made by Apeks, DUI, Halcyon or is a JetFin clone, are wankers, which makes them strokes
* People who claim to be non-DIR, yet dive with well-thought out configurations, within the bounds of their training, and with a safety conscious attitude, are not strokes
that's my jar of pennies worth
Fantasticly said, this I think was the best definition I have seen.
And I love the last point :
* People who claim to be non-DIR, yet dive with well-thought out configurations, within the bounds of their training, and with a safety conscious attitude, are not strokes
That is the main message that we need to spread.
Great
=-)
BigJetDriver
July 16th, 2003, 08:45 AM
Scubaroo once bubbled...
.......are wankers, which makes them strokes.......
Okay, Scubaroo, it is not fair that you include "wankers" as part of your definition of "stroke"! After all, it is a time-honored tradition. As you know, and any other guy over the age of puberty knows, your mother was wrong when she said you'd go blind if you did that. Besides, it's the only sure way of getting a date at the last minute. You don't have to dress up, and you sometimes meet a better class of people!:D :D :D
ElectricZombie
July 16th, 2003, 11:01 AM
I think that "Stroke" is not necesarily a deragatory term. It is just a label like anything else. Instead of saying "I don't feel comfortable diving with that guy.", you just say he's a stroke.
It is a funny term but I try not to call anyone a stroke because it might be misinterpreted as some sort of "elitist" comment. That is really not how it is intended.
A stroke is someone who has been show a more logical method but refuses to listen to reason. The person knows better but, is unwilling to improve. Strokes are unsafe and are not commited to safe diving. People that do unsafe and stupid things without proper thought and training are strokes. Guys who don't practice skills are strokes. Instructors who insist on teaching such nonsense to their students, despite knowing better, are King Strokes. Strokes are guys that your average diver would not feel comfortable diving with. Strokes are illogical and/or poorly skilled.
I don't think someone is a stroke as long as they are always trying to improve and are open to reason.
Jonathan
July 16th, 2003, 08:26 PM
shouldn't the DIR people be the strokes? After all they have to stroke GI's ego.....
ElectricZombie
July 16th, 2003, 09:46 PM
No one needs to stroke GI's ego...I think he is pretty self assured...
blackice
July 16th, 2003, 10:55 PM
Jonathan once bubbled...
rower nearest the cox - or is it furthest? :D
Ha ha ha .. only got it the second time round .. think it's the closest to the cox...
Jonathan once bubbled...
rower nearest the cox - or is it furthest? :D
Nearest.
jamiei
July 21st, 2003, 02:14 PM
I've seen "stroke" used by people that like to think their way is better than someone elses way, not necessarily that their way is better. I never have and never will use the term... nor will I ever call myself a DIR diver... I'm a diver, period... no matter what gear I use, how I use it, or how I dive. At best its childish. Thats like calling someone a carpetmuncher... It's just a simple way for someone to say they're better than someone else or thats someone is different and therefore better or lessor instead of just sharing knowledge and ideas. Thats what this board is about and thats why you won't hear it a lot here. Why even comment on someone else's dive style or ability? Why waste your time? Cause it separates the "cool" divers from the "not cool" divers. Thats a big part of DIR no matter how you cut it unfortunately. Many of the principles of DIR are absolutely great, but the jist of it being some elite group is not. A lot that consider themselfes DIR will say that those people that feel that the "cool because i'm DIR" divers aren't DIR at all. Why do we have to label everything? You're a stroke... thats DIR... thats not DIR... Does DIR have ownership of certain skills or methods? No, not at all...
I listened to some DIR audio's the other day that happily poked fun at PADI and used the term stroke a lot. No one can deny that PADI has done more positive for the dive industry as a whole than any other single group. If there was never a PADI, the dive industry, tech diving included, wouldn't be where its at today, technoligically or otherwise. I heard a lot of BS, but nothing really about diving techniques other than whats wrong with certain gear setups... more than anything it was a commentary on how those guys felt they were better divers than anyone else. Guys, who gives a flying f@#k about what anyone else thinks is best for them? Take the info thats available and make the decision for yourself and let other divers do the same...
Charlie99
July 21st, 2003, 02:25 PM
jamiei once bubbled...
I listened to some DIR audio's the other day that happily poked fun at PADI and used the term stroke a lot. Who was speaking?
Big-t-2538
July 21st, 2003, 02:31 PM
Not being able to spell the word "Definition" would qualify you as a stroke..;)
Well, I had a heart attack while diving, so while not quite a stroke diver, I guess I'm the closest to it. :D
ElectricZombie
July 21st, 2003, 03:00 PM
jamiei once bubbled...
It's just a simple way for someone to say they're better than someone else or thats someone is different and therefore better or lessor instead of just sharing knowledge and ideas.
I disagree. It's not about "I'm better than you." at all. "Stroke" is just a label that implies that the diver in question has some problems that need resolving...they know that they are not doing things very effectively and don't care to change. It's just like saying that the guy with his tank mounted upside down is unsafe.
Why even comment on someone else's dive style or ability? Why waste your time? Cause it separates the "cool" divers from the "not cool" divers.
Because their style and ability directly effects my safety if I am diving with them. If they are not diving with me, I could care less what they do.
Thats a big part of DIR no matter how you cut it unfortunately. Many of the principles of DIR are absolutely great, but the jist of it being some elite group is not.
DIR isn't trying to make people feel bad or push them away, it seems to be quite the opposite actually. They do have high levels of skill but it is not some sort of exclusive club or anything.
Why do we have to label everything? You're a stroke... thats DIR... thats not DIR...
Labels are needed to distinguish between differences. It's important to know what you are dealing with and these labels provide some info.
Does DIR have ownership of certain skills or methods? No, not at all...
Maybe not but, I have yet to see any other agency even mention the skills/methods taught in a DIR-F class.
I listened to some DIR audio's the other day that happily poked fun at PADI and used the term stroke a lot. No one can deny that PADI has done more positive for the dive industry as a whole than any other single group. If there was never a PADI, the dive industry, tech diving included, wouldn't be where its at today, technoligically or otherwise.
I guess you heard one of the George audio files. Again, stroke is just a label, no need to get offended. This is just my opinion but, I think PADI deserves to be poked fun at. A lot of the stuff they do and condone needs to be questioned.
I heard a lot of BS, but nothing really about diving techniques other than whats wrong with certain gear setups... more than anything it was a commentary on how those guys felt they were better divers than anyone else.
The focus of that file is only gear...that's why nothing else was mentioned. They talk about other stuff in other files. I didn't get the impression that they were just bragging, etc.
Guys, who gives a flying f@#k about what anyone else thinks is best for them? Take the info thats available and make the decision for yourself and let other divers do the same...
There are guys out there who know a hell of a lot more about diving than I do. I'm willing to look at their suggestions and see what makes sense. DIR makes sense to me...maybe not to you...and that's ok. The main point is to make people aware of DIR and let them choose for themselves.
jamiei
July 21st, 2003, 03:29 PM
Labels such as these inherently come with a negative connotation which is neither effective or productive. DIR, as I said has a lot of great aspects about it.
Why would a DIR diver dive with a non DIR diver or rather a diver that is considered unsafe anyway? Stroke isn't used solely for those that refuse to dive safely. Its used to poke fun at those that don't do things the way the person using the label does them. There is no wrong and right way to dive... Thats like saying that one type of car is the only way to go... DIRF (Doing It Right- Ford... that wouldn't fly with everyone either) There's never only one right way to do anything.
DIR itself is a misnomer... their opinions and methods change... so really what was DIR at one time is now Doing It Wrong... Thats how everything in diving is. We see problems with something that we once thought was the way to go and change it. DIR is nothing new... It's just as much hype and about selling something as anything else is in this industry. Either you're DIR are you're doing it wrong, right? Thats a powerful statement... and not really a true one.
Labels are meant to separate one thing from another, not bring them together. Who wants to hang out with the "dork" at school? Same deal here... Maybe hard to admit or swallow... but the psychology is the same. It's the same attitude that kept a lot of people from becoming divers many years ago... Dive instructors belittling someone because they weren't oddly enough, doing it right... Anybody remember those times? Diving got away from that, but just like the DIR tapes say that we're getting back to older style diving equipment some seem to be getting back to that "You shouldn't be a diver because you aren't as good as me" attitude.
jamiei
July 21st, 2003, 03:58 PM
[QUOTE]ElectricZombie once bubbled...
[B]
[B]
I guess you heard one of the George audio files. Again, stroke is just a label, no need to get offended. This is just my opinion but, I think PADI deserves to be poked fun at. A lot of the stuff they do and condone needs to be questioned.
[B]
Do you make fun of your grandparents when they get old and don't remember things or do embarresing things? No... without the people that put us where we are, where would we be? Padi does some stupid stuff just like everybody else does... I think at the very least, you respect Padi for the number of divers that they have got into diving which has a direct affect on the quality and safety of the gear and training we have today. Few divers=no money=no research and development=crappy gear and diver knowledge=diver accidents... If you don't have fans coming to Braves games, you won't have a good team. Simple as that. Padi brings the fans to the game to spend their money. Knock it if you want to, but if you're smart you realize you need it to survive. With no crime, there's no need for the police... no divers, there's no need for equipment manufacturers or dive shops.
I'm not against DIR at all and I'm not a big fan of Padi either, but my views don't keep me from seeing the big picture.
kalvyn
July 21st, 2003, 04:17 PM
I really like the band The Strokes (http://www.thestrokes.com/). This is what I think of every time I hear the term stroke...
Jimmie
MHK
July 21st, 2003, 06:42 PM
I want to emphisis that I have no desire, intention or willingness to engage, defend or parse words respecting this issue. However, for those that care and for those that feel the term is derogatory let me provide context and then I'll bow out of this thread and allow everyone to arrive at there own conclusions.
Initially the term "stroke" was coined by Parker Turner and George Irvine [ both of whom at one time or another headed the WKPP]. Early on the WKPP was mostly known only within the Florida cave diving community and many within that circle really wanted to be part of the WKPP. Parker and George, for good reason, run a tight ship and you just don't "sign up" and become a member of the team. Alot of hard work and substantial skill is involved in becoming a team member. However, early on many prospective members would cojole Parker and George by "stroking" their ego's and "stroking" them with their impressive diving credentials.. Resume's mean little in the WKPP, what counts is skill in the water.. Accordingly, the original derivation was amongst the team referring to someone who had little skill, but nonetheless wanted to be part of the team.. As word of the success of the WKPP accomplishements spread throughout the cave and general diving population the definition of the term "stroke" became to be generically associated with simply divers with an unsafe attitude..
I don't worry too much about labels, I spend my efforts worrying about skill, but for those that worry about substance over form that is the derivation of the term, so please do with it as you may.. I was asked to comment on this thread, those are my thoughts so bear in mind I will NOT engage in a debate over a term that was coined well before I became affiliated with GUE..
Regards
Snowbear
July 21st, 2003, 08:20 PM
ElectricZombie once bubbled...
I disagree. It's not about "I'm better than you." at all. "Stroke" is just a label that implies that the diver in question has some problems that need resolving...they know that they are not doing things very effectively and don't care to change. It's just like saying that the guy with his tank mounted upside down is unsafe.
That sure isn't how it "sounds" when it is being applied
ElectricZombie once bubbled...
Maybe not but, I have yet to see any other agency even mention the skills/methods taught in a DIR-F class.
How about The National Association of Cave Divers? I have met and dove with a couple of Full Cave certified (NACD) divers that are not "DIR" certified, know they are good divers and have good skills. Does this make them Strokes? Funny - they can do helicopter turns, skills while horizontal and neutral, valve drills, swim backwards, frog kicks, long hose around the neck, bungied backup, streamlined gear. Huh.
Albion
July 21st, 2003, 11:52 PM
Clothes do not maketh the man
[QUOTE]ElectricZombie once bubbled...
[B]
I disagree. It's not about "I'm better than you." at all. "Stroke" is just a label that implies that the diver in question has some problems that need resolving...they know that they are not doing things very effectively and don't care to change. It's just like saying that the guy with his tank mounted upside down is unsafe.
[B]
I was diving with a definite stroke the other weekend then.
Backplate and 27# pioneer
Long hose, bungied backup
Jet fins.
- so far so good.
But he had a dirty great canister light which went on every dive, he did not look steamlined in it, what with the long hose and canister lead he looked a mess. Considiring we were diving tropical reefs with a minimum 8m viz what was the need.
I made damm sure i was no where near him for the night dive, last thing i wanted was my night vision screwed up and the fishes scared off.
Thats a stroke IMHO
Whirling Girl
July 22nd, 2003, 01:45 AM
In rowing, fyi, it's actually:
cox, stroke, 7,6,5,4,3,2,bow.
I kind of disagree with ElectricZombie (sorry dude!) because I think that 'stroke' is a derogatory term. But I have no problem with it. George and the WKPP crew have earned the right to say whatever they want about divers who are not, in their opinion, worthy of diving with them, though it's a bit obnoxious for the rest of us.
I actually really liked the post by cast55:
essentially applying to someone who refuses to implement change despite logical reasoning leading to the conclusion that such change should be effected.
I think this is true about alot of divers, and people in general, and there's nothing wrong with not wanting to dive (or otherwise deal with) someone who demonstrates this attitude. And thank you MHK for kindly providing us with such a cool historical background on the term.
I would only use the word 'stroke' to refer to myself, as in 'dude, I was a total stroke on that dive, my buoyancy sucked six ways during that ascent, sorry, dang.'
Margaret
Jonathan
July 22nd, 2003, 02:21 AM
there is a lot of debate about whether gaijin is a derogatory term or not. Kind of upsets the locals who think it is when we refer to ourselves as gaijin....
sticks and stones etc
Looks like I almost got the definition right earlier!!
Albion
July 22nd, 2003, 03:18 AM
Jonathan once bubbled...
there is a lot of debate about whether gaijin is a derogatory term or not. Kind of upsets the locals who think it is when we refer to ourselves as gaijin....
Jonathan, going off topic here, but have you seen the Gaijin kit in Tokyu Hands fancy dress section, it comprises a Red Hair Wig and large plastic nose. Wear that to the next karaoke session your japanese friends organise!!!!!!!
more japanese faux pas
I used to live in Japan, and my family name is 'Barker', this is not a great thing to have, the translation into english will get blocked here.
PhotoTJ
July 24th, 2003, 07:01 AM
I posted this in another thread, I feel it bears repeating here...
So, let me get this straight, DIR is great, unless someone finds a flaw, then it's not DIR, because their DIR is not your DIR.
So, the only way to be truly DIR is to dive the way you do. Anyone else's set up won't be DIR, because what is Doing It Right for them would not be DIR for you.
Ergo, everyone who is diving with their gear set up the way they like it is DIR!
:DTa-daaah!!!:D
There are those who'll no doubt say, 'You just don't get it!'
To which I'll respond, no, you don't.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whirling Girl once bubbled...
George and the WKPP crew have earned the right to say whatever they want about divers who are not, in their opinion, worthy of diving with them, though it's a bit obnoxious for the rest of us.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Earned the right? No, the US Constitution gives them that right, but it also gives me the right to decry them as elitest, obnoxious, wanna-be cult leaders/gurus.
It never ceases to amaze me how, if someone takes the time to write something down, and print it in a reasonable professional manner, a hoard will accept it as gospel. (Look at the diet fads, every year a new one comes out, contradicting the one that was all the rage last year. And people buy it.)
I don't require someone else to validate how I configure my gear. I'm the one diving it, not them. Do I think I'm the Second Coming of Cousteau or Exley? NO. Nor do I think there is nothing I can learn from any diver. If I see you doing something that is neat, whether technique or configuration, I'll ask you about it, and, if it works for me, apply it and/or use it. Someone fresh out of OW may have learned a new trick that I don't know, and I'm happy to learn from him or her.
But don't insult me with a label. (Whether you admit it or not, stroke is used as an insult. Look at the context every time you see it on this board.)
DIR indeed.
The very name reeks of elitism and snobbery at best; a dive cult, in the bad sense of the word, at worst.
I'm a diver. Period. :angry:
After review...
Damn, this is reading like an attack on DIR, it's not intended to be. It's an attack on the mindset that there is no other way to dive, and that any one or two divers has all the answers. Think for yourself, it's refreshing.
DA Aquamaster
July 24th, 2003, 08:28 AM
MHK once bubbled...
Accordingly, the original derivation was amongst the team referring to someone who had little skill, but nonetheless wanted to be part of the team.. As word of the success of the WKPP accomplishements spread throughout the cave and general diving population the definition of the term "stroke" became to be generically associated with simply divers with an unsafe attitude..
I can certainly accept the original definition of the word and Thanks MHK for pointing out the roots of the term. However I do have problems with how the term is misused today.
I have seen at least two posts implying that a stroke is someone who refuses to accept logical reasoning and change their configuration accordingly. As someone trained in the ceintific method and who does research, I am familiar with the strenghts and weaknessnes of the four general ways of "knowing".
One of these ways is of course logic (the others being Authority, Intuition, and what has become known as the Scientific Method). But one of the fallacies I see in many of the people that appeal to logic is that they do not understand the problem of the logical paradox - that there may in fact be two or more solutions that are logically correct despite the logical assertion that there is only one true answer. Many DIR advocates fall into this trap and then when they encounter a potentially valid argument that is counter to their belief systems will fall back on the Authority argument to assert that their brand of logic is correct and everyone else's is flawed. (ie, It's right just because DIR, or some really cool diver a lot of people respect says it is.)
Another DIR related post provides the reality based solution to this paradox by admitting that what is considered DIR changes over time as new problems are developed or resolved. This also implies that DIR at least accepts the tenents of the scientific method and agree that one can often learn more from a failed experiment than from a successful one. (of course this ironically requires folks who do it different who can then be considered strokes if they screw it up and front running DIR innnovators if they succeed.) So in my opinon DIR is, at best, a well thought out, but constantly changing, best guess at what works for a broad range of situations rather than the ultimate answer for each and every unique and individual diving situation.
I also find it ironic that if you accept the more contemporary definition of stroke that MHK presents as someone with an unsafe attitude, then you have to accept that there are many DIR wannabees out there who dive and expound on the DIR configuration but who are in fact clearly strokes in both the old and new sense of the word. Diving DIR in essence becomes a way for many crappy divers to become what they perceive as part of the elite and to use a belief in DIR as a crutch for a lack of experience, judgement and maturity. So in that sense perhaps it's better if "stroke" is a term that is left to be applied only within the DIR community by those attmepting to police their own DIR community. And the need to police these indiviudals in the DIR community is great as their willingness to spout a dogmatic and elitist approach in situations where it is not appropriate and the controversy that this ferments takes away from the more valuable contributions DIR has to offer.
I like and apply many of the DIR ideas but am way too eclectic and individualistic in my approach to diving and my ever evolving gear configuration to ever be considered DIR. And that's ok. I don't plan on forcing my philospophy on any DIR divers. If a DIR diver ever attempts to convert me while on my boat, I will kindly return them to the dock and facilitate his or her wish not to dive with non DIR divers. However if they call me a stroke, I probably won't wait until we get back to the dock to boot 'em off my boat.
