Surface Marker Buoy Needed in Prescott Divers Playground?

[Fat_Tony]

Is a Surface Marker Buoy Needed in Prescott Divers Playground?

[JimC]

By law you must fly a dive flag when your in the water, and you must be within I think 30 feet of it. My experince has been in many cases flying a dive flag is unsafe or down right foolhardy. One particular ocasion a jetski forced me to abandon the flag as he was doing circles around it. I carry an SMB and shoot it prior to comeing up in most cases now.

[DivingGal]

If you're heading out on the "rope" course, you should have a float with you, boats (some very large ones) have come in to use the dock to the west of the "diver entry" dock. If they don't know you're in the water, they won't know to avoid you.

If you're in the water with the OW classes, and they have floats, you "could" probably not take one, as with their floats boat traffic will know there are divers in the water.

Prescott docks is known as an OW location (they get classes from all over the area -- Ottawa, Prescott, Ogdensburg, Montreal....), so floats are common, and recognized for what they are.

I have never had a problem with water craft operators at Prescott. At other locations I have -- from the slalom racers, to someone who gave me a tow (until he must have realized the float had something attached to the other end).

[Kevin R]

By law you must fly a dive flag when your in the water, and you must be within I think 30 feet of it.

Jim, You wouldn't happen to know where this law is written would you? I ask because I have heard so many people state that it is or is not law, and I would like to find out if it actually is or if those quoting it do not know their facts. I actually do not know of a written provincial or local law refering to dive flags on the St. Lawrence. The Prescott police once threatened to charge me for diving wilthout a flag, but I never received a summons, possibly because they could not find this law. I never found out why.

Kevin

[Kevin R]

Sorry Jim, after rereading that, it sounded rather terse. I am not trying to stir up debate, I am giving you the benefit of doubt that you know of a law in trying to asertain weather or not there is a law.

Please don't take offence to the unintentional tone of my previous post.

Kevin

[Fat_Tony]

Erm ... So is it a law or not?

[JimC]

Interesting.
Very interesting.


I did some searched on http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/index.html or http://192.75.156.68 and aperently there are only a few laws regarding recreational scuba. Mostly about not diveing near damns, locks and shipping channels.

None of which mention anything about a dive flag.

Unfortunatly the coast guard web page search function is broken. But it apears that there are no dive flag laws.


Seems you only need to fly a flag if your running an operation, charter, doing research, etc.

[Groundhog246]

Even with the commercial operations, there's confusion over what flag(s) to fly. It's almsot always a good idea to fly the largest practical diver down (red/white) flag. Collision regs call for flying an Alpha flag (blue/white with a triangle out of the blue end) which means a vessel with restricted manueverability, ie divers in the water, on a vessel with divers in the water. However, they mean surface supplied air and it does not necessarily apply when scuba divers are in the water. :confused: Since the boat can still maneuver (leave?). I don't think there's anything quite as confusing as Maritime Law.

I think some of the notion on Dive Flag laws comes from Tobermorry, where "Park" regulations require a dive flag.

[Brockvegas]

Why don't they just put up a white buoy or a keep out buoy and post it?

[Groundhog246]

Brockvegas once bubbled...
Why don't they just put up a white buoy or a keep out buoy and post it?

It would be a good idea, if you could get approval. A private party can't just mark part of a navigable waterway as "private". You'd have to get government approval (CCG?) and possible pay the CCG to install maintain the buoys.

[Brockvegas]

Which would take longer than the second coming of J.C.
Good point.

[artw]

I found something about deploying bouys at the SOS website
and how it relates to CCG

http://www.saveontarioshipwrecks.on.ca/Buoys/buoy%20resp.htm

Perhaps I'll contact them about getting a bouy at Lock 21. If they can put one at the Conny, they can surely put one at Lock 21.

[Kevin R]

I mark several sites each year in the St. Lawrence and Ottawa Rivers for SOS Ottawa.

The coast guard will not install buoys for you. With their permission, you can mark a site, however, the buoy must be built to CCG standards and the CCG must be notified so they can issue a notice to shipping.

Kevin

[Fat_Tony]

So is a marker law or just good practice?

[artw]

Good practice. Unless you are doing a drift with a strong surface current/wind, then shooting a smb before surfacing would be safer. (IMO)

[Groundhog246]

artw once bubbled...
Perhaps I'll contact them about getting a buoy at Lock 21. If they can put one at the Conny, they can surely put one at Lock 21.

Excuse my ignorance, but I'm not from that area. Is Lock 21 a boat dive and in need of a mooring buoy? That is what SOS is placing and the CCG is not so too difficult about those. If you mean a permanent diver below or a keep out, for that you would need an extremely good reason. The safety of divers is not likely to be enough. CCG's primary concern is keeping boats out of trouble. To that end, a known/charted mooring at a location that vessels may regularly anchor (such a regularly dived wreck) is safer as vessels can plan a course well away from it, thus SOS buoys are "good".

[Kevin R]

Lock 21 is a shore dive in the Long Sault area. There are a couple of reasons that it is not moored by SOS. One is that the guidelines that are already on it are constantly breaking under the strain from the weeds that collect on the lines from the current and a buoy would only stay afloat for a few days unless constantly cleared. Another is that SOS is a charitable volunteer organization which must be careful with what little money it has. Buoys are expensive and volunteers to maintain them are hard to find, therefore shore sites such as lock 21 and prescott docks are not moored. Although it is largely a shore dive, the connestoga was moored because there is an issue with boating traffic from the fishing community over-running the site at high speed and creating a hazard to the divers below.

IMHO if you are diving Prescott and feel the need for a flag, take your own. Instructors should be teaching their students to take and use a flag or float, not teaching them to expect one to be there. I always carry a marker and spool in my backplate so if I need to I can deploy it, otherwise I am unhindered by it.

Kevin

[DivingGal]

Thanks Kevin for an excellent response to this request for information.

Sharing valuable, accurate information is important in our sport.

[Diver Joe]

I don't believe that the Diver Down flag is an officially recognized flag... At least I don't believe it's in the International Code of Signals. I don't have a copy here and am just using my rusty memory. I believe that the Internationally recognized flag is the Blue and White Flag Alpha which means Divers down or Friendly Demolitions work in progress. Vessels should give a wide berth but there is no real Regulations stating that they must...

Should there be an accident, well the fact that the Ship was flying Code Alpha would not reflect well upon the Offending Ship in a Maritime Court. But fault would likely be shared all round...As the Captain of the ship flying the Alpha Flag has a responsibility to ensure safety. The actions of the Dive Supervisor would also come into question and utlimately the Diver himself...as the unwritten rule goes something like "once your head goes under the surface - your in charge of the Dive"

I think the Red/White flag that we are all fimiliar with came into use in the late 60's and is generally recognized and accepted by to mean Recreational Diving in Progress, give wide berth. I don't believe that there is any official law that states that a ship or boat must adhere to the flag....and I also don't think that there is any requirement/law stating that a Flag / Float must be used by recreational divers.

Oh and back to Alpha again...two flags are actually flown...
A long Pennant type flag that alternates Red White Red White...This means Code.... and then the Blue and White Alpha flag is flown just under the Code Flag... This indicates that the Signal comes from the International Code of Signals. Maybe it is a coincidence but interesting none the less, that Our Divers down Flag is Red and White..... Oh and a Ship that is conducting dive Operations at night, Runs Three Lights that Run Vertically and you guessed it... They are Red for top light...White for middle...and Red again on the bottom. Take a look at the Boat's mast the next time your out on a Charter.....

In summary... It's all a matter of Courtesy and it works both ways....

Happy and safe diving to All

Cliff Crayven
ahhh I mean

[DPVDiver]

Perhaps Quebec is different, but I have heard of a few groups being fined for no flag diving in various lakes on the quebec side, Lac Leamy is one. Having never personally seen a ticket though, maybe it is only rumor.

[Groundhog246]

Kevin Ripley once bubbled...
Lock 21 is a shore dive in the Long Sault area. There are a couple of reasons that it is not moored by SOS. One is that the guidelines that are already on it are constantly breaking under the strain from the weeds that collect on the lines from the current and a buoy would only stay afloat for a few days unless constantly cleared.

We did Lock 21 last week. I can't comment on the ropes breaking under the strain. The remains of the 1/2" white poly entry rope tied around the tree were very obviously cut with a sharp knife. The piece left at the buoyed end was just long enough to reach the surface. The yellow exit rope looked to have broken under strain. However, it might have been caused by the shore end being attached to the winch on a boat trailer backed up against the tree it was tied up too, with a length of 1/2" white poly rope used as the link. If there had been any contact info for S.O.S., I'd have tried calling/reporting my suspicions.

Aside from a surface swim to the upstream buoy and a shorter surface swim back, it was quite an interesting dive.

[Kevin R]

You cannot trust any of the lines on that site to end upo where the map on shore says they will. Most of the posts on the east railing are now laying on the bottom with the lines still attached. On the west side (opposite sid of the canal from the weir) the lines start and end up broken and flapping in the current.

I wouldn't use any of the lines to pull myself against the current. as I posted before, many of them are about to break. Also, much of the concrete has deteriorated and the posts and rails on the site could go at any time under diver impact as well.

Kevin Ripley