BC Failure Mode

[aquaregia]

I recently came across a 30 year old BC that I don't quite trust. I'd like to test it out, but I'm curious about how it's likely to fail. The most catastrophic thing I can imagine is the bladder rupturing under higher pressures. Can I check for something like this by diving the pool a bunch, checking for wear, diving 20' a bunch, checking for wear, etc? Or is it likely to just blow up on me without warning @ 60'?

Followup question: In my OW classes we were taught to ditch weight pretty much any time it occurred to us. However, if I consider ditching 25# of weight @ 40' with a 7mm and an AL80, I'm not sure I could flare hard enough to not shoot to the surface. Would it be stupid to wear two weight belts so I could ditch 10# separately? I can come up with a bunch of reasons it's a bad idea, but I can't come up with something better.

[miketsp]

Inflate it until the dump valve(s) pop then leave it inflated for a couple of days to see if it's leaking and goes soft. You may well need to replace the rubber sealing disks in the dump valves.
I have 2 BCs that have 10 years of use and one with 15 years of use. I replaced various disks with pieces cut from car inner tubes - work perfectly.

At depth the situation is no worse. The springs on the dump valves mean it can only be inflated to a fixed absolute pressure above ambient pressure. Although the internal pressure will increase as you descend so does the external pressure on the bladder.

As for dumping weight, unless you're grossly overweighted the only time you should ever actually need to dump weight would be at the surface.

[herman]

First off, you are placing too much emphasis on the importance of a BC. It is a buoyancy COMPENSATOR, its purpose is to compensate for buoyancy changes during the dive which should be the compression of your wetsuit and the slight changes in the buoyancy of your tanks. If you are inflating it more than a little then you are likely way overweighed unless you are doing some serious technical diving, at which point it really becomes a neutral buoyancy achieving device with a secondary function of a BC. Even with a thick wetsuit it's unlikely you can't swim yourself to the surface with a total BC failure to hold air. The real failure you should worry about is the inflator valve sticking open, inflating the BC to the point you cannot control your accent.
More to your question, I would first inflate it fully and inspect it for leaks and signs of damage or excessive wear. If it holds air for an hour or so, then I would dissemble, clean and reassemble all of the inflate and deflate valves. If it does not hold air, look for the source of the leak before assuming it's bad, leaking dump valves and minor seam leaks are common and can be repaired. Often the problem is nothing more than a grain of sand or salt in the wrong spot. Once everything was back together I would again inflate it to its max and make sure the overinflate dumps work. If all goes well and it will hold most of it's air for an hour or 2, dive it.

[awap]

A 30 year old BCD, if it holds air at all, is likely to have "pin-hole" leaks where the waterproofing material has degraded and is failing. While you might patch a few such leaks with aquaseal, the degraded material will not miraculously heal. Seams and creases will be the first to go. It will look like a fish tank aerator.

I would not expect much more use from that BCD. Eventually you will probably end up harvesting a tank strap, inflator, hoses and maybe some accessories and trash the rest.

Good luck.

[aquaregia]

Awesome, thanks.

[aquaregia]

Right on the money awap. I inflated it, and within two hours it was noticeably lower. I assume that means I shouldn't even bother testing it in the pool as even if it doesn't create more bubbles that my lungs do, I'll end up pumping more air into the BC than I do into my lungs?

Is there likely to be any vintage freaks that would want this? It's an old Seatec. Or should I just dumpster it?

[roturner]

Right on the money awap. I inflated it, and within two hours it was noticeably lower. I assume that means I shouldn't even bother testing it in the pool as even if it doesn't create more bubbles that my lungs do, I'll end up pumping more air into the BC than I do into my lungs?


Well you're right about one thing. You shouldn't use it if it's leaking.

But you still might want to try it out in the pool to see *where* it's leaking. If the bladder has (pin) holes in it, then there isn't a lot you can do. However, it might be leaking from a valve, and that can be fixed.

R..

[Zung]

Actually 2 hours is not that bad: there's not a lot of people who do recreational diving that's 2 hours long!

I'd throw it in a pool or a bath tub to see where it leaks; I wouldn't be surprised if it's the inflator or the valve: hopefully a little cleaning'll do.

I still dive a SP jacket style BC that's 20 years old. Last October in Egypt, on the day before the last dive day, there were some big big bubbles (what's the english word for bubbles that's bigger than bubbles?), more like a burst, coming out of the lower inside of my BC. I shifted it a bit and it stopped and I didn't pay further attention, finished the dive and the following day's dives; didn't even bother to tell the wife and the kids. Only when I was back home did I realize the CO2 inflator has broken off and there's a hole the size of a dime! A bit of Aquaseal and it's good to go.

[herman]

Right on the money awap. I inflated it, and within two hours it was noticeably lower. I assume that means I shouldn't even bother testing it in the pool as even if it doesn't create more bubbles that my lungs do, I'll end up pumping more air into the BC than I do into my lungs?

Is there likely to be any vintage freaks that would want this? It's an old Seatec. Or should I just dumpster it?

Check to see where it's leaking, may be just a loose connection or a bit of junk in a valve. An old Seatec most likely had an internal bladder that you can get to, if so and it's a small pinhole leak (very common) or a little tear in a seam, Aquaseal will fix it. If it's a standard jacket type, not too many vintage divers want/use them. If on the other hand it's a horse collar....where do I send money for shipping ?

Wait a minute.......freak.....who you calling a freak....I prefer weird old dude in that old junk, thank you very much. :mooner:

[awap]

If not repairable, I harvest any usable or interesting parts and trash the rest.

[dave4868]

Wait a minute.......freak.....who you calling a freak....I prefer weird old dude in that old junk, thank you very much. :mooner:

:rofl3: My vintage friends will appreciate that one! Thanks for the chuckle! :)

Dave C

[aquaregia]

What is the deal with this CO2 canister anyway? In case they find my corpse at the bottom and want to send it back up to mom? It seems like AGE waiting to happen.

[mksmith713]

That thing would make a nice conversation piece.
Maybe find an old mannequin and outfit it in vintage gear and keep it in your living room.
I was considering that when I found this vintage 60's wetsuit.
The only problem is........I'm still using my old ScubaPro regs.....:)

[awap]

What is the deal with this CO2 canister anyway? In case they find my corpse at the bottom and want to send it back up to mom? It seems like AGE waiting to happen.

The little cylinder makes a good handle for use in a 1st stage LP port. But you will want to use the mechanism to discharge it before using it for a reg handle. I count those among the interesting parts.

I believe is was meant for use only on the surface.

[aquaregia]

I found some hissing at the CO2 port. I'm gonna aquaseal the join and see what it does.

I took the bladder off the tank-mounting plate for this, and the backplate seems to have all the attachments I'd need on a hog harness, seems like I could just strap the tank on my back with it... I don't really *need* a BC do I? :)

[herman]

Nope, a lot of us dive without a bladder fairly often...another time I get comments and stange looks.

[Zung]

What is the deal with this CO2 canister anyway? In case they find my corpse at the bottom and want to send it back up to mom? It seems like AGE waiting to happen.

The only real true truth: they designed the inflator for the sole purpose of annoying me. I was glad it broke off finally, but I suffered 20 years before that.

[BuoyantC]

One more thing to check on an old BC is the male threaded connection for the inflator and dump valves. I have an old Seaquest around somewhere on which the plastic degraded. The jacket was fine, but the threaded connector just crumbled. (it was a cream color and looked like nylon). I'd suggest unscrewing the dump valve and check out the integrity of the BC part . It could be possible to find repair parts, but probably not worth it.

[moneysavr]

I recently came across a 30 year old BC that I don't quite trust. I'd like to test it out, but I'm curious about how it's likely to fail. The most catastrophic thing I can imagine is the bladder rupturing under higher pressures. Can I check for something like this by diving the pool a bunch, checking for wear, diving 20' a bunch, checking for wear, etc? Or is it likely to just blow up on me without warning @ 60'?

Followup question: In my OW classes we were taught to ditch weight pretty much any time it occurred to us. However, if I consider ditching 25# of weight @ 40' with a 7mm and an AL80, I'm not sure I could flare hard enough to not shoot to the surface. Would it be stupid to wear two weight belts so I could ditch 10# separately? I can come up with a bunch of reasons it's a bad idea, but I can't come up with something better.

Hey I got the best Idea yet put it back on E-BAY and let the next sucker buy it,

Ok all kidding aside TOSS IT! its junk that's why you got a great deal!I think the average eBay dive junk gets circulated till the US post office finaly loses it!

As I see you are a newer diver,and diving cooler waters with a 7mm wet suit so to get all that positive buoyancy you need a bit of lead to get down and this you will loose =LEAD as you gain more skills diving,
now go to your local LDS and look into a pool dived BCD weight integrated pockets as most shops blow this equipment out as the chlorine begins to fade or turn black BCD's to orange on EBAY! you will get a great deal on a CLEAN BCD and it will stay inflated!
Next lets teach you a trick split your lead put lets say put 8lbs in each pocket=16lbs in your BCD then put a couple of 4lbs on a weight belt and if you need that 1lbs after you learn how to get all the air out of your wet suit throw a 1lb on too,9lbs on a weight belt is not much at all and even most guys with no hips can keep that amount on their butt! then when you do skills like equipment remove & replace you will look like a pro not shooting to the surface at depth!
Hey dive safe and enjoy this some times expensive sport, but remember not to nag you all dive equipment is life support equipment!!! and your life is important to all !!so saving a buck just is not worth losing your life!!!! as a new diver you just don't need any failures as you proceed down the dive learning cure,
Brad

[awap]

Hey I got the best Idea yet put it back on E-BAY and let the next sucker buy it,

Ok all kidding aside TOSS IT! its junk that's why you got a great deal!I think the average eBay dive junk gets circulated till the US post office finaly loses it!

As I see you are a newer diver,and diving cooler waters with a 7mm wet suit so to get all that positive buoyancy you need a bit of lead to get down and this you will loose =LEAD as you gain more skills diving,
now go to your local LDS and look into a pool dived BCD weight integrated pockets as most shops blow this equipment out as the chlorine begins to fade or turn black BCD's to orange on EBAY! you will get a great deal on a CLEAN BCD and it will stay inflated!
Next lets teach you a trick split your lead put lets say put 8lbs in each pocket=16lbs in your BCD then put a couple of 4lbs on a weight belt and if you need that 1lbs after you learn how to get all the air out of your wet suit throw a 1lb on too,9lbs on a weight belt is not much at all and even most guys with no hips can keep that amount on their butt! then when you do skills like equipment remove & replace you will look like a pro not shooting to the surface at depth!
Hey dive safe and enjoy this some times expensive sport, but remember not to nag you all dive equipment is life support equipment!!! and your life is important to all !!so saving a buck just is not worth losing your life!!!! as a new diver you just don't need any failures as you proceed down the dive learning cure,
Brad

It really is funny how phrases like "go to your local LDS" and "all dive equipment is life support equipment" seem to turn up so often in the same post. I guess the "average ebay dive junk" is just the cherry on the top of this BS.

I have bought lots of dive gear on ebay including some unusable BCDs. But the unusable one were always advertised as such. I have never been surprised by a piece of crap from ebay.

That said, I do agree that it is worth checking with you LDS to see what they have. But I suspect the price at the LDS will be much higher than ebay, at least until the LDS gives up on selling their used gear locally and puts it on ebay. But it is worth a try.

[aquaregia]

What's the point of the weight integrated BC? Does it make a big difference to trim? I find myself not able to keep my feet as high as I would like. If it's just comfort, I can't really be bothered. I'm wearing around 23lbs right now, but even 30lbs wasn't uncomfortable.

Although saving money is a large part of it, I do like to reduce waste and gain experience by repairing old stuff. People gave me a lot of heat when I redid my own brake lines, claiming that they were important to stop the car; however, I don't really think that brakes are the solution to most problems on the road. I'm primarily curious about failure modes because if a BC were to fail catastrophically when I'm midwater, I'd have a problem I'd need to solve quickly. If it just means that my buoyancy is crappy and I keep having to top it up, it doesn't seem as dangerous.

[moneysavr]

awap,
It really is funny how phrases like "go to your local LDS" and "all dive equipment is life support equipment" seem to turn up so often in the same post. I guess the "average ebay dive junk" is just the cherry on the top of this BS.

I have bought lots of dive gear on ebay including some unusable BCDs. But the unusable one were always advertised as such. I have never been surprised by a piece of crap from ebay.



Great job on your ebay skill's! REALLY!!!!!! No JOKE!:D
IMO=ebay has its place, some times a diamond in the rough can be found most often unless your timing and know how on what your looking bidding on,and repair skills to service said purchase are A#1 make it as safe as it was manufactured and NEW!!!
it can be no real big savings,based on whats your life worth Dude??????? and some times you pay more.IMO its the auction mentality, with winners and losers and some=most folks like to win!:D

In my post I am stating some fact's that as in a new diver purchasing online equipment ,some ones junk,un tested,are they taking it in for service or not??
Now read this link as the bodies of these two were recovered by a fellow SB and pal,
NOTICE EQUIPMENT FAILURE<<<<<<<<<
CDNN :: Equipment Malfunction, Diver Error to Blame for Scuba Diving Deaths (http://www.cdnn.info/news/safety/s060417.html)

Using "SCUBA" Breathing copmpressed gas in a enviroment that can not sustain a human being, are you saying that dive euipment is not life support?:shocked2:
if so you will just be a statistic among the ebay diving deaths yearly,Lets see I have dove with personaly (2) seperate divers from SB's that are now in the big pond in the sky! Not refering to ebay purchased equipment but both were equipment / diver fatalities and both had more dives than you.
not to stir up a hornet nest I just think newer divers/any should be wear,take any,ALL purchases to a authorized dealer for a look over before even hitting any body of water with questionable equipment! and IMO lots of Ebay stuff is questionable!
This is just MY OPPINION! and last with out a LDS
you going to use your local gas staion to fill your tanks?:dontknow:
Dive safe,
Brad

[scubafanatic]

What's the point of the weight integrated BC? Does it make a big difference to trim? I find myself not able to keep my feet as high as I would like. If it's just comfort, I can't really be bothered. I'm wearing around 23lbs right now, but even 30lbs wasn't uncomfortable.

Although saving money is a large part of it, I do like to reduce waste and gain experience by repairing old stuff. People gave me a lot of heat when I redid my own brake lines, claiming that they were important to stop the car; however, I don't really think that brakes are the solution to most problems on the road. I'm primarily curious about failure modes because if a BC were to fail catastrophically when I'm midwater, I'd have a problem I'd need to solve quickly. If it just means that my buoyancy is crappy and I keep having to top it up, it doesn't seem as dangerous.

Saving $ = good (within reason!) , recycling/refurbishing = good (again within reason), however, in my book, a 30-something 'BC' so prehistoric it's got a CO2 cartridge is $ saving that's out of control! Honestly, scuba ain't the world's cheapest sport, so maybe it's time for a rethink? Most of the dive ops/boats I use wouldn't let you into the water with anything remotely like that, too dangerous/obsolete, and they wouldn't let you risk hurting yourself or messing up the trip for all the other divers if a trip got canned to whisk you back to hospital/morgue. Also, don't look to be included with the divers who go get to do the fun dives (deep/current/challenging) as your survival gear (which is what scuba gear really is) isn't up to remotely modern standards....that gear will label you hopeless/clueless newbie and you will sterotyped as non-serious/totally inexperienced. Also, if something happened to you, would you leave behind a widow/orphans that would be devastated ? Yeah, you could probably get away with sneaking it to a local lake/quarry and diving it, not out in the real world though.

[herman]

If that is the same accident I read about a while back, you need to read the actual report. Equipment failure was the initiating event but played a minor role in both deaths. Inexperience and poor training did the rest. The minor equipment failure- a torn BC, should have been nothing more than a PITA. The series of events that followed are what got them into trouble and all can be attributed to poor training and lack of experience.
BCs are not life support, they are a creature comfort device, nothing more. For many years in the early days of diving they did not exist and some of us to this day do not use them when they are not needed. Unless you are diving a lot of tech gear there is rarely a need for them if you are properly weighted...more training is needed by many divers in the art of proper weighting rather than teaching them to rely on equipment to cover for their poor training and skills. When you start depending on them as life support is when you get into trouble.

[scubafanatic]

If that is the same accident I read about a while back, you need to read the actual report. Equipment failure was the initiating event but played a minor role in both deaths. Inexperience and poor training did the rest. The minor equipment failure- a torn BC, should have been nothing more than a PITA. The series of events that followed are what got them into trouble and all can be attributed to poor training and lack of experience.
BCs are not life support, they are a creature comfort device, nothing more. For many years in the early days of diving they did not exist and some of us to this day do not use them when they are not needed. Unless you are diving a lot of tech gear there is rarely a need for them if you are properly weighted...more training is needed by many divers in the art of proper weighting rather than teaching them to rely on equipment to cover for their poor training and skills. When you start depending on them as life support is when you get into trouble.

Herman, I appreciate your position, but the reality is that the world (dive ops operating in the year 2010) really couldn't care less about what worked for Lloyd Bridges/Sea Hunt back in the day, so yeah, knock yourself out at the lake on your own where nobody will see/spot ya, no problem, but it's just not gonna fly out in the real world, where the dive boats/ops set the rules, not the divers.

[aquaregia]

For what it's worth, I would really only intend to be diving easy shore dives in 30' with this BC (Monterey Breakwater and Lover's Cove, likely). My buddy and I can borrow club BCs for dives we do with the club, but we'd like to be able to go out without the rest of the guys sometimes.

[awap]

awap,
It really is funny how phrases like "go to your local LDS" and "all dive equipment is life support equipment" seem to turn up so often in the same post. I guess the "average ebay dive junk" is just the cherry on the top of this BS.

I have bought lots of dive gear on ebay including some unusable BCDs. But the unusable one were always advertised as such. I have never been surprised by a piece of crap from ebay.



Great job on your ebay skill's! REALLY!!!!!! No JOKE!:D
IMO=ebay has its place, some times a diamond in the rough can be found most often unless your timing and know how on what your looking bidding on,and repair skills to service said purchase are A#1 make it as safe as it was manufactured and NEW!!!
it can be no real big savings,based on whats your life worth Dude??????? and some times you pay more.IMO its the auction mentality, with winners and losers and some=most folks like to win!:D

In my post I am stating some fact's that as in a new diver purchasing online equipment ,some ones junk,un tested,are they taking it in for service or not??
Now read this link as the bodies of these two were recovered by a fellow SB and pal,
NOTICE EQUIPMENT FAILURE<<<<<<<<<
CDNN :: Equipment Malfunction, Diver Error to Blame for Scuba Diving Deaths (http://www.cdnn.info/news/safety/s060417.html)

Using "SCUBA" Breathing copmpressed gas in a enviroment that can not sustain a human being, are you saying that dive euipment is not life support?:shocked2:
if so you will just be a statistic among the ebay diving deaths yearly,Lets see I have dove with personaly (2) seperate divers from SB's that are now in the big pond in the sky! Not refering to ebay purchased equipment but both were equipment / diver fatalities and both had more dives than you.
not to stir up a hornet nest I just think newer divers/any should be wear,take any,ALL purchases to a authorized dealer for a look over before even hitting any body of water with questionable equipment! and IMO lots of Ebay stuff is questionable!
This is just MY OPPINION! and last with out a LDS
you going to use your local gas staion to fill your tanks?:dontknow:
Dive safe,
Brad

You keep coming back to the scare tactics, "...whats your life worth Dude???????", as though spending more $$$ (in and LDS) somehow makes you safer. It does not. The accident you cite is interesting as it does appear to involve equipment failure but the article does go on to indicate, "They were either inexperienced or they were complacent."

Let's face it, while scuba gear may be very reliable, it includes some relatively inexpensive (pennies, not dollars) critical components that will occasionally and eventually fail. My life has never been dependent on one of those $0.02 critical o-rings because of training, procedures, and redundancies. Equipments failures never need to result in death for well trained and practiced recreational divers. We do agree on some points. I agree the new diver (actually, all divers) should conduct competent inspections (or have such inspections conducted) frequently on their scuba gear. I just don't necessarily have the faith in "authorized dealers" that you seem to have. I have seen too many half-assed jobs done by "authorized dealers" to put any special trust in that moniker.

[aquaregia]

Lets see I have dove with personaly (2) seperate divers from SB's that are now in the big pond in the sky! Not refering to ebay purchased equipment but both were equipment / diver fatalities and both had more dives than you.

It feels sort of rude to ask, but is there a thread or something I can read on those? I try to read as many incident threads as I can, hoping that I can learn something. If this is in incredibly poor taste I apologize in advance.

At this point, regarding BC failure, I am concerned about stuck inflators, but I am not concerned about a ruptured bladder on a dive where I'm along the bottom for the entire dive and I can do a gradual ascent rather than a midwater safety stop. If either of those incidents indicate that I should be otherwise concerned, that would be helpful to me.

And yeah, I know I'm a male in my twenties (actually, it's my 28th birthday today) with basically zero dives, and therefore in one of the higher risk groups. I'm actually finding it fairly informative to get both the "make it your fault" vs "don't let it be your fault" opinions here.

[Zung]

I wouldn't worry too much about equipment malfunction. Underwater, everything happens in slow motion: if for any unlikely reasons your inflator gets stuck open, you disconnect it; if your BC leaks, you'll be kicking a lot of sand; if your reg stops giving air, grab your buddy's octo, or go up. That's all there is.

Btw, I wouldn't call California beach diving "easy": I chickened out of Huntingdon beach in LA last summer when I saw that heavy surf pounding:D.

Happy birthday!

[herman]

Herman, I appreciate your position, but the reality is that the world (dive ops operating in the year 2010) really couldn't care less about what worked for Lloyd Bridges/Sea Hunt back in the day, so yeah, knock yourself out at the lake on your own where nobody will see/spot ya, no problem, but it's just not gonna fly out in the real world, where the dive boats/ops set the rules, not the divers.

We are not talking about rules or dive op procedures, we are talking about the BCs being "life support equipment" which they are not. My point is, while they are nice to have, they are not critical to the safety of the dive, as is well demonstrated by the many years in which they did not exist and if anything, they detract from proper training and weighting...which if that is the couple I am thinking about, are dead mainly because of poor training, not because of failure of "life support equipment". If anything, they are dead because they treated it as such.
I wear one when a dive op requires it but I almost never touch my inflator except to dump ALL of the air out at the beginning of the dive. I do not need it for buoyancy compensation (it is a buoyancy compensator after all)because my weighting is spot on and I rarely dive a lot of wetsuit so I have little changing buoyancy to compensate for. Because I am properly weighted I don't need it at the surface either and if things get bad I drop my weights- instant positive buoyancy that will not fail.

[moneysavr]

You keep coming back to the scare tactics, "...whats your life . I agree the new diver (actually, all divers) should conduct competent inspections (or have such inspections conducted) frequently on their scuba gear. I just don't necessarily have the faith in "authorized dealers" that you seem to have. I have seen too many half-assed jobs done by "authorized dealers" to put any special trust in that moniker.

Ok We are close to the same page!Yes some dealers can be bad,half ass ed! that's why its important and I leave this up to each diver to make sure its a authorized dealer especially with regulators,I dive vintage regs to modern stuff & cold water and yearly run thru everything,I was about to drop some Aqua Lung regs off at local shop that was a servicing dealer at one time, when I asked if he was authorized service dealer, "not "this means he may or may not have the training,manuals and tools so I had to change course.

And yes I dive vintage and don't need a BCD for warm water dives-like Florida springs,less the wet suit and just a back plate its great,but the way new diving techniques are taught with thick wet suits in cold waters,over leading to get a diver down a BCD well is needed and is a life jacket on the surface to hold a diver up.

not going to kick old ghosts around both were sad occasions,both had equipment failures with diver error thrown in! both I believe could of been prevented, and that's my 2 cents all I have are reports,hearsay,news articles and scared **** less dive partners that disappear after these sad unforeseen,untimely death's!