How do you secure your dive flag?

[BigAirHarper]

I was just curious to hear the many ways that people secure their dive flags at their dive sites. Let's say your doing an OW dive off the shore. I'm just wondering if you anchor it to the bottom, or tie it off elsewhere.

[Becca_007]

You drag it with you or otherwise how does it mark where you are? We do lots of shore dives in Michigan. The flag is in a float and there is a rope around a plastic handle. Let out rope as you go deeper and reel it in if you ascend. Keeping the flag right above you lets others know where you are. There is one lake that we tie the flag off to a platform. There is a rope course below and dragging a flag through there is more hassle than it's worth when we are guaranteed to be deeper than 30ft. However, we carry our surface markers and spools in case we need to ascend from a different location.

[GrumpyOldGuy]

In certain sites, where I must have a flag but don't want to drag it around, I just use a spare weight (5lbs) on a bolt snap. If you are going to do this, make sure you have a SMB in case you have to surface away from the flag.

[imwright1985]

for marking a wreck were diving i take a loop of rope pass it under a rail or through a cleat and clip my reel off on that with the flag, takes literally a second to undo, for OW drift you gotta drag the flag, and for an anchor dive its on the boat

[drdaddy]

When jetty diving, we throw it in by the finger that we will be diving around - sometimes we might even drag it out a ways and drop down the very lightweight anchor. This lets the jetty fishermen, and hopefully the sportboaters, that we are diving around this finger of the jetty.

This is in Oregon where we are not required to have a flag, but it's a good idea. However, when jetty diving, you really can't drag it around as the surge would pull it in and around the rocks and hang you up/be dangerous.

[Deep South Divers]

We secure ours to the walls of our shop. There's a couple on the ceiling, too. Both of them are secured with thumbtacks. :)

When diving, we have found that displaying a dive flag attracts a lot of unwanted attention. More people are curious or interested in using the flag as a ski bouy - many of them have no idea it's illegal to be within 50 feet of the buoy in most places. Those who realize it's a "diver down" flag will often tie up to it in order to see the divers when they come out of the water. Diving, is, after all, viewed by the general public as a very cool and unusual sport!

Granted, in some places, having a dive flag is a legal obligation - but that's really a rare instance. Check your local laws regarding dive flags - many people believe that they're a legal requirement when they actually aren't.

I also encourage everyone to adopt the philosophy to be responsible for what you do and say. That is, if you don't want to get hit by a boat, take actions to not get hit by a boat - e.g. don't be in the path of an oncoming boat, and/or stay at depth until you know for sure it's safe to surface. Another method of being responsible for your own tail is to always ascend and descend on your anchor line so that you always surface in the relative safety of the shadow of your own boat.

To me, a diver toting a dive flag - unless legally required to do so - shows a bit of sidestepping their own obligation of personal responsibility - instead, they expect others to avoid any kind of catastrophe FOR them. I find the mindset a bit unsettling and indicative of other issues.

Dive flags also give away our best dive sites... :) No thanks. :)

[SkimFisher]

We secure ours to the walls of our shop. There's a couple on the ceiling, too. Both of them are secured with thumbtacks. :)

When diving, we have found that displaying a dive flag attracts a lot of unwanted attention. More people are curious or interested in using the flag as a ski bouy - many of them have no idea it's illegal to be within 50 feet of the buoy in most places. Those who realize it's a "diver down" flag will often tie up to it in order to see the divers when they come out of the water. Diving, is, after all, viewed by the general public as a very cool and unusual sport!

Granted, in some places, having a dive flag is a legal obligation - but that's really a rare instance. Check your local laws regarding dive flags - many people believe that they're a legal requirement when they actually aren't.

I also encourage everyone to adopt the philosophy to be responsible for what you do and say. That is, if you don't want to get hit by a boat, take actions to not get hit by a boat - e.g. don't be in the path of an oncoming boat, and/or stay at depth until you know for sure it's safe to surface. Another method of being responsible for your own tail is to always ascend and descend on your anchor line so that you always surface in the relative safety of the shadow of your own boat.

To me, a diver toting a dive flag - unless legally required to do so - shows a bit of sidestepping their own obligation of personal responsibility - instead, they expect others to avoid any kind of catastrophe FOR them. I find the mindset a bit unsettling and indicative of other issues.

Dive flags also give away our best dive sites... :) No thanks. :)

What happens in bad viz? Do I just feel around for the hull? I've personally dived in a few spots where boat engines cannot always be heard over the ambient noise until they are right on you. Hoods don't help with that either.

Not all diving situations facilitate that type of approach. What happens if you or another diver MUST get to the surface? There's no time to follow the bottom or come up another structure or take your time.

I do agree with a few points - just because I use a flag I don't trust it to keep me safe - a diver always needs to be thinking. But I find it's better to be safe than sorry. Lets also stop to consider the insurance liability of not towing a flag - you are immediately at fault. The day you get hit by a boat and you're not towing a flag you had better hope it kills you because you won't want to deal with the aftermath. (not you personally, I'm just speaking figuratively)

I don't do much shore diving, but when we boat dive in high-traffic areas we have the boat follow us with the flag displayed - this does two things: it alleviates the need for us tow a flag, and it also leaves someone topside to give hell to anyone that comes within 100 feet and an education on Florida dive flag laws. If we are staying in one area, then we stay near the boat but there is ALWAYS someone topside.

PS - where I live a dive flag is required by law.

[SkimFisher]

...and to answer the OP's question: If ever I do have to tow a flag I use my cavern/safety reel.

[Deep South Divers]

What happens in bad viz? Do I just feel around for the hull? I've personally dived in a few spots where boat engines cannot always be heard over the ambient noise until they are right on you. Hoods don't help with that either.

Not all diving situations facilitate that type of approach. What happens if you or another diver MUST get to the surface? There's no time to follow the bottom or come up another structure or take your time.


What happens if YOU or another diver MUST get to the surface? Do you trust everyone else in the river (who probably is past their legal limit in alcohol consumption and watching the children play in the stern of their speeding boat) to avoid you?

Why do you feel that it's somehow someone else's responsibility to keep you safe?



But I find it's better to be safe than sorry.


I agree, which is why I believe that a proactive stance on keeping your body out of the oncoming propeller is a better approach than flying a dive flag and assuming that someone else is going to do it for you.



Lets also stop to consider the insurance liability of not towing a flag - you are immediately at fault. The day you get hit by a boat and you're not towing a flag you had better hope it kills you because you won't want to deal with the aftermath. (not you personally, I'm just speaking figuratively)


You know, I may seem out of line on this one, but when I'm underwater and diving, "insurance liability" is the last thing on my mind. :)

With regards to the laws, any time a motor vehicle hits a pedestrian, whether it's on the street or in the water, the law assumes that it is the motor vehicle operator's fault. Insurance liability follows the law.

...But that's not the point. If I walk out into the street and am hit by a car and paralyzed for life, does it really matter whose fault it was?

As such, I generally don't walk down the middle of the road... Or park my truck on train tracks. Or surface in front of a speeding boat.

Whatever steps I need to take to accomplish that, I do. It's pretty simple.



I don't do much shore diving, but when we boat dive in high-traffic areas we have the boat follow us with the flag displayed


Really? Well, when I walk in high traffic highways, I generally have the car follow me while displaying a sign that has a symbol, "Pedestrian Walking." I expect everyone else to not hit me, for I am very concerned about insurance liability. :)

C'mon, man... What are you doing diving in high-traffic areas in the first place? Is there a lack of open water where you are?



PS - where I live a dive flag is required by law.


Well, then, I guess you've got to dive with a flag or face being fined. Personally, I wouldn't concern myself with the dive police, but if you really can get a ticket for not flying a dive flag, then I guess you'll have to fly a dive flag.

...Or dive somewhere else. :)

[SkimFisher]

What happens if YOU or another diver MUST get to the surface? Do you trust everyone else in the river (who probably is past their legal limit in alcohol consumption and watching the children play in the stern of their speeding boat) to avoid you?

Why do you feel that it's somehow someone else's responsibility to keep you safe?

I've found that the commonly practiced methods work pretty well for not just me, but the other few hundred/thousand diver's in the area. And where did I say that it's someone else's responsibility to keep me safe?

What I can't stand about the old "Do you use a flag or not" argument is that most often the guys that say "oh, it's just a magnet for boats, no one knows what it means, etc, etc" have usually had ONE bad experience where a boater rolled up on their flag. They usually have ONE picture of a boater doing something stupid around a flag. And then they use this ONE experience to make an over-dramatic generalization and then pass this on as defense for NOT using a flag to new and inexperienced divers. If YOU don't want to use a flag - then don't use a flag. At the end of the day it's all on you if you get hit.

Nothing is fool proof - I'm not disagreeing there. But it just seems to be an unnecessary risk. What is the harm in towing or setting a flag?



You know, I may seem out of line on this one, but when I'm underwater and diving, "insurance liability" is the last thing on my mind. :)

Nor I. That's why I take the necessary precautions BEFORE I get in the water.


With regards to the laws, any time a motor vehicle hits a pedestrian, whether it's on the street or in the water, the law assumes that it is the motor vehicle operator's fault. Insurance liability follows the law.

No, it doesn't. I've been in the situation first hand and I can tell you that it absolutely does not. You can't stop a pedestrian from jumping out in front of your car.


...But that's not the point. If I walk out into the street and am hit by a car and paralyzed for life, does it really matter whose fault it was?

As such, I generally don't walk down the middle of the road... Or park my truck on train tracks. Or surface in front of a speeding boat.

Whatever steps I need to take to accomplish that, I do. It's pretty simple.

...and people that do get hit by boats are doing it intentionally? Accidents happen. Even to those who think they are taking the necessary steps to avoid them. That's the chance we all take.


Really? Well, when I walk in high traffic highways, I generally have the car follow me while displaying a sign that has a symbol, "Pedestrian Walking." I expect everyone else to not hit me, for I am very concerned about insurance liability. :)

C'mon, man... What are you doing diving in high-traffic areas in the first place? Is there a lack of open water where you are?

When you're looking for critters you go where the critters are. That means bridges when it's too rough offshore. It's a common practice and it works quite well actually. But I appreciate the condescension.

[Deep South Divers]

I've found that the commonly practiced methods work pretty well for not just me, but the other few hundred/thousand diver's in the area.

And every one of them flies a dive flag?

The few hundred thousand divers here don't. And that works for them. :)



What I can't stand about the old "Do you use a flag or not" argument is that most often the guys that say "oh, it's just a magnet for boats, no one knows what it means, etc, etc" have usually had ONE bad experience where a boater rolled up on their flag.


Well, I've had several - and that's several more situations where the dive flag has been a detriment than a positive.



If YOU don't want to use a flag - then don't use a flag. At the end of the day it's all on you if you get hit.


It's "on you if you get hit" anyway. The only difference is - one way, you accept the risk and take proper steps to mitigate it. When you fly a dive flag, the assumption tends to be that that IS the mitigation, which makes a whole bunch of assumptions about the other party (the boater) - that he knows what the flag means, that he's aware of what his responsibility is, and that he's capable of handling that responsibility, both in terms of maturity and cohesiveness (eg - not intoxicated). These assumptions may not be correct, and it's not going to matter whose fault (liability) it is when you get hit and lose a hand.

For me, what works is accepting my risk completely myself and assuming that nobody else is going to do it for me.



Nothing is fool proof - I'm not disagreeing there. But it just seems to be an unnecessary risk. What is the harm in towing or setting a flag?


Well, for one it's accepting of a philosophy which I disagree with - that someone else is responsible for what you do. This philosophy is harmful in that it can impregnate your entire life... And I think that most people here will agree that the philosophy is a problem today in the US - people tend to not accept responsibility for their own actions.

Two, flying a dive flag is an announcement, "Hey, I'm diving over here." To you, that's a good thing, because you're assuming that the other person's intentions are wholesome and legal. To me, it attracts unwanted attention and announces to other divers where my dive spots are. I don't know how it is in Florida, but here, many dive spots yield artifacts and fossils that can be worth thousands.

Three, a dive flag and float is yet one more piece of gear to have to buy, clean, maintain and rinse at the end of the day. Like the "accept responsibility" mentality, a "minimizing gear" mentality is a great one when it comes to diving - minimalist divers use less gas, can afford to dive more, are more streamlined in the water, and generally less issue-prone. A dive flag is the antithesis of this philosophy.



No, it doesn't. I've been in the situation first hand and I can tell you that it absolutely does not. You can't stop a pedestrian from jumping out in front of your car.


Please cite a reference. I have never seen a situation where the driver of a motor vehicle that struck a pedestrian was not found at fault.

That includes all kinds of motor vehicles, including boats.



...and people that do get hit by boats are doing it intentionally? Accidents happen. Even to those who think they are taking the necessary steps to avoid them. That's the chance we all take.


It's not a "chance," and it's offensive that you imply otherwise... Again, a thought process that comes from a "sidestepping of responsibility" philosophy.

There is no physical way that I can be hit by a boat if I'm just a couple of feet below the water's surface. And yes, boats are very easy to hear, even with hoods and ambient noise going on. Even if the engines don't make noise (they do), their propellers make a tremendous amount of noise. And water is a fantastic medium for sound.

When a boat is barreling down the river (presumably the most possibility for injury to a diver), it makes a tremendous amount of noise. It can be heard from very far away.

If you're diving in an area where there is so much boat traffic that you can't tell the difference between those that are passing by and those that are putting you at risk, then you need to dive elsewhere - or ascend and descend on a line, rode, or piling so that you're not in the way.

Placing a dive flag in a heavily traffiked area does not improve the situation - or mitigate the risks.

...Which is why, philosophically, the diver that doesn't fly a dive flag is probably safer - because he'll take the steps necessary (ascending and descending in a safer area) to stay safe under his own control than fly a dive flag and assume that that will keep him safe.



When you're looking for critters you go where the critters are. That means bridges when it's too rough offshore. It's a common practice and it works quite well actually. But I appreciate the condescension.

I'm not trying to be condescending. We just have differing opinions, that's all. :)

If you like the bridges, then ascend and descend on the pilings until your head is above the surface and you can see that the coast is clear on your own. They are your "safe harbor" as a diver - no boater is going to come anywhere close to them, for fear of damaging his boat.

...And THAT is much more "bankable" than flying a flag and assuming that they have the understanding and capacity to stay away from it.

[SkimFisher]

Please cite a reference. I have never seen a situation where the driver of a motor vehicle that struck a pedestrian was not found at fault.

That includes all kinds of motor vehicles, including boats.

You're talking to one.


If you like the bridges, then ascend and descend on the pilings until your head is above the surface and you can see that the coast is clear on your own. They are your "safe harbor" as a diver - no boater is going to come anywhere close to them, for fear of damaging his boat.

...and we do. Still doesn't mean I won't fly a flag though. My POV on this matter may be fueled by the fact that we are *required* to fly a flag - thus it's second nature. But I like to think that regardless of the law, I'd still do it. The way I look at - if a boater does get too close, they'll never make the same mistake again or at the very least be able to claim ignorance.

[Deep South Divers]

You're talking to one.

You've been hit by a boater? What happened? How did they not find the boater at fault?



...and we do. Still doesn't mean I won't fly a flag though. My POV on this matter may be fueled by the fact that we are *required* to fly a flag - thus it's second nature. But I like to think that regardless of the law, I'd still do it. The way I look at - if a boater does get too close, they'll never make the same mistake again or at the very least be able to claim ignorance.

Fair enough. Different points of view, I guess. :)

I sincerely hope that neither of us are wrong and that the unthinkable never happens. Obviously, we're both after the same idea - safety for divers below. I understand your points, I just happen to have a different opinion on how to get to the same objective.

Our conversation has been enlightening. Hopefully we can both appreciate each other's point of views.

I'm interested in your story.

[SkimFisher]

No, I was not hit by a boat. I was involved in an accident in which a pedestrian was struck though. Turns out there is very little you can do to keep someone from throwing themselves in front of a moving vehicle.

[Deep South Divers]

...So you were the driver? Obviously you weren't the pedestrian, else you'd say so.

How'd that go down with the authorities? Inquiring minds want to know... And want to know how in the world they found you not at fault.

I agree that there's not much you can do - but nonetheless, the law is written to generally favor the pedestrian.

[SkimFisher]

Everyone has to pay attention. Even pedestrians. I'll leave it there.

[Deep South Divers]

Why? You wanted to cite your own case, but won't give any details?

Okay, if you don't want to cite your own case, then what other case do you know of where the motor vehicle operator was not found at fault when his motor vehicle struck a pedestrian?

I agree that logically, the pedestrian should "watch where he's going." Unfortunately, the law generally does not see it that way. Generally speaking, the law favors the pedestrian over the motor vehicle operator.

...Which is why, as a diver, I'm not worried about "insurance liability" or "getting sued" by a boat operator when he hits me. :)

...That said, and having control over myself and only myself, I choose to avoid getting hit rather than choose to fly a flag and leaving the decision up to someone else.