Underwater fighting

[Ze_Abron]

Silly hypothetical question:

Say a blue country went to war with a red country. And two navy divers from opposing sides met each other underwater; how do they fight each other?

Do they even do so? Is the fabulous 'Thunderball' scene just fantasy?

[awap]

Silly hypothetical question:

Say a blue country went to war with a red country. And two navy divers from opposing sides met each other underwater; how do they fight each other?

Do they even do so? Is the fabulous 'Thunderball' scene just fantasy?

Quite a few military forces have developed underwater pistols.
underwater pistols - Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?q=underwater+pistols&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGIC_en___US358)

[under water]

kSIg7etAkQw

[USCScubaboy]

i suppose whoever put up with all the ragging about rambo knives would have the upper hand ;)

[Fatterboy]

If one could cup both palms over the opponents ears and apply pressure I would wager the resulting squeeze with probable rupture of tympanic membranes would be excrutiating.

[Guba]

I imagine that a Navy SEAL would be able to answer this one. The few that I've talked to sounded pretty confident that they could take out an enemy underwater, although they didn't go into detail.

[Dirty-Dog]

It is said (though of questionable veracity) that during the early days of WWI, a British and German plane, each returning from a patrol, passed each other. The pilots waved. When asked why he didn't try to shoot the german, the British pilot is alleged to have said something along the lines of "Are you out of your mind? It's dangerous enough up here without shooting at each other."

Something similar may well apply to your scenario.

[Sas]

Silly hypothetical question:

Say a blue country went to war with a red country. And two navy divers from opposing sides met each other underwater; how do they fight each other?

Do they even do so? Is the fabulous 'Thunderball' scene just fantasy?

When I was playing a computer game the other night I had to sneak onto an oil rig to rescue some hostages. I had flippers, rebreather and a gun. The gun could be fired from underwater as I used it to shoot some guards near my exit point.

It was in a computer game so it must be true.

[under water]

It actually looks like they are developing underwater weaponry.
"Perhaps the most intriguing hint of where the underwater arms race is headed comes from a 2005 U.S. patent granted to Thomas J. Gieseke, a Navy scientist at the Naval Undersea Warfare Center. The patent proposes a "high-velocity underwater jet weapon" that fires a stream of high-velocity liquid "bullets" -- fine grains of metal or sand that form a cavity more efficiently than solid rounds"

Splash, Splash, You're Dead: The Military's Next-Gen Water Gun (http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/06/underwater_guns)

[Token]

I suspect that 'fighting' wouldn't really be an issue. The first diver to see the other one would simply approach from behind and murder him by whatever means handy. One of those shark bangstick gadgets would serve...

[ZKY]

Ever watch Sea Hunt?

[Atomic_Diver]

How does it work in space's 0 gravity? Probabley same way?..

[fnfalman]

Hmmm...time to invest into a big dive knife???

[mikemill]

How does it work in space's 0 gravity? Probabley same way?..

Not really. In 0 gravity a bullet could fly through space for nearly forever (since there are some forces that would slow it down) but underwater it'd stop pretty quick.

[themagni]

Grenades.

[Atomic_Diver]

Grenades. Torpedos..ijs

[Atomic_Diver]

Not really. In 0 gravity a bullet could fly through space for nearly forever (since there are some forces that would slow it down) but underwater it'd stop pretty quick. yet how would a combustion occur, or the powder ignite with no oxygen, and the vaccum of space, it can't happen. I don't think...?

[fstbttms]

yet how would a combustion occur, or the powder ignite with no oxygen, and the vaccum of space, it can't happen. I don't think...?
Who said anything about combustion? There are other ways to get a projectile moving.

[covediver]

Hawaii JuJitsu KoDenKai - MizuJitsu - Scuba & Water Safety Course (http://www.pixi.com/~mcjitsu/mizujitsu/mizujitsu.html)

http://www.aquathlon-int.org/

[USCScubaboy]

Hawaii JuJitsu KoDenKai - MizuJitsu - Scuba & Water Safety Course (http://www.pixi.com/~mcjitsu/mizujitsu/mizujitsu.html)

http://www.aquathlon-int.org/

Hmmm. Maybe I'll start the first underwater fight club. Anyone interested in joining? :eyebrow:

The first rule of Underwater Fight Club is you do not pee in your wetsuit.:rofl3:

[EGad]

G2TQLqrCrdw

[kanonfodr]

Meh, most military divers are of the working class variety (ie. building things, fixing things, looking at things) and while they do have some training in combatives both above and below water, they aren't an underwater infantry.

Also, military divers don't generally work too far from their home ship. This means that if two antagonistic countries have divers in the water near each other, more than likely the guns are already blazing.

As far as SEALs and other special forces are concerned, those guys are in their own little world full of all kinds of crazy toys. I know that Heckler & Koch invented the world's first underwater pistol (The P11) which looks like a crazy revolver and fires metal spikes, but I don't know of any actual underwater engagements involving it's use. I really don't even know much about it's use period underwater, seeing as it's the size of a soup can and has a range not much further than the average speargun. Most teams would likely scoff at carrying it as they prefer equipment that can perform many functions while maintaining a small form factor on the body.

But with all that not withstanding, I'm sure that if two dive teams from mutually unfriendly countries just blundered into each other and actually figured out "Oh Crap, that's the enemy!!" without their topside support knowing first, a fight could possibly ensue. It would likely be very vicious, think Gladiator or 300, as the lack of ranged weapons would mean that everyone's going to be getting really close to each other. Lots of mask and regulator removals, kinda like diving a cattle boat except it's all on purpose.

Peace,
Greg

[CRM 114]

The red country has a nifty gadget called the ASM-DT. I don't have the post count to put up a link, but a google search will turn up info.

[mikemill]

yet how would a combustion occur, or the powder ignite with no oxygen, and the vaccum of space, it can't happen. I don't think...?

Not a ballistics expert but I believe a bullet is self contained for the ignition and burn sources.

[Atomic_Diver]

Not a ballistics expert but I believe a bullet is self contained for the ignition and burn sources. vaccum?.. No this is going to drive me nuts.. Hold on while I contact NASA

[TJF]

When I was playing a computer game the other night I had to sneak onto an oil rig to rescue some hostages. I had flippers, rebreather and a gun. The gun could be fired from underwater as I used it to shoot some guards near my exit point.

It was in a computer game so it must be true.

LMAO too true!

[CRM 114]

vaccum?.. No this is going to drive me nuts.. Hold on while I contact NASA

Bullets contain a propellant and an oxidizer, so you could potentially fire one on the Moon.

[jmasin]

Bullets contain a propellant and an oxidizer, so you could potentially fire one on the Moon.

As well as underwater. Guns fire underwater, charges can be detonated underwater, there are underwater flares...

None of these is pulling oxygen out of the water for their ignition/combustion/burn.

[djtimmy77]

speargun?

[ONESPEED]

I imagine that a Navy SEAL would be able to answer this one. The few that I've talked to sounded pretty confident that they could take out an enemy underwater, although they didn't go into detail.

Wouldn't surprise me the way they train.

XqqQFpIwe2Q

[Nemrod]

Silly hypothetical question:

Say a blue country went to war with a red country. And two navy divers from opposing sides met each other underwater; how do they fight each other?

Do they even do so? Is the fabulous 'Thunderball' scene just fantasy?

Well, I cannot speak for red vs blue but if a fellow with DIR scissors and a butter knife attacked me underwater with my vintage 14 inch long razor sharp Sea Hawk, his time would be limited on this earth, just saying, game over :rofl3:. It is not a tool, it is a weapon.

N

[ZKY]

Well, I cannot speak for red vs blue but if a fellow with DIR scissors and a butter knife attacked me underwater with my vintage 14 inch long razor sharp Sea Hawk, his time would be limited on this earth, just saying, game over :rofl3:. It is not a tool, it is a weapon.

N

In addition to a small knife, I might add for all you Hog loopers out there, that hose wrapped around your neck sure makes for a great weapon to be used against yourself.

[awap]

yet how would a combustion occur, or the powder ignite with no oxygen, and the vaccum of space, it can't happen. I don't think...?

Just like rocket motors in space, the fuel (powder) does not need an outside source of oxygen to support combustion.

[Rhone Man]

I can't recall its name, but someone published a book recently about early Navy frogmen, particularly from the WW2 era.

I seem to recall that their main tactic was to lure the other frogmen deeper, where they would black out due to O2 toxicity (British used a 50% O2 mix, whereas the Axis frogmen used 100% O2).

[Guba]

Wouldn't surprise me the way they train.
(see the video link in post #30)

And I don't think it would be wise to hassle that drill sergeant about his split fins, either.

[Herk_Man]

I find myself curiously drawn into this ridiculous topic. I can't believe I'm even taking the time to type this. But it has to be said because nobody else has pointed out the obvious answer. Anyone that has seen the documentary, Austin Powers, knows that the solution to underwater combat is...









Sharks, with laser beams on their heads! :lurk2:

[Nemrod]

In addition to a small knife, I might add for all you Hog loopers out there, that hose wrapped around your neck sure makes for a great weapon to be used against yourself.

Yeah, grab'm by the Hog loop and unsheathe the blade. N

[covediver]

Hmmm. Maybe I'll start the first underwater fight club. Anyone interested in joining? :eyebrow:

The first rule of Underwater Fight Club is you do not pee in your wetsuit.:rofl3:

you don't have to start an underwater fight club...Southern California already has a couple, aka underwater hockey (not really, it just looks like it sometimes).

[Nemrod]

yet how would a combustion occur, or the powder ignite with no oxygen, and the vacuum of space, it can't happen. I don't think...?

Gunpowder is a mixture of sulfur, potassium nitrate (saltpeter) and charcoal. Of course modern firearm propellants are not black powder but the reason we call it a "propellant" is that the mixture contains both a fuel and an oxidizer. A propellant mixture will burn in a vacuum, otherwise a rocket engine would be in big trouble. A Saturn V engine burned liquid hydrogen (fuel) and LOX (liquid oxygen as the oxidizer) to provide the initial boost for our trip to the moon. Last time I checked, there is no oxygen on the moon. N

[Guba]

Gunpowder is a mixture of sulfur, potassium nitrate (saltpeter) and charcoal. Of course modern firearm propellants are not black powder but the reason we call it a "propellant" is that the mixture contains both a fuel and an oxidizer.


Black powder is, indeed, made up of the three ingredients listed. However, if you specify that a "propellent" is one that contains a "fuel" and an oxidizer, then black powder is most definitely one. Potassium nitrate (KNO3) is a strong oxidizer and, therefore, black powder will burn quite nicely both in a vacuum and underwater (provided you keep your powder dry!).

[<*)))><]

Hmmm. Maybe I'll start the first underwater fight club. Anyone interested in joining? :eyebrow:

The first rule of Underwater Fight Club is you do not pee in your wetsuit.:rofl3:

Then whose wetsuit can you pee in?:

[DCBC]

The situation isn't likely as a Navy Diver at war is primarily involved with explosives ordinance disposal. If he screws up, he's his own worst enemy (you can drop the knife) ;). Alternatively, he's repairing underwater damage to vessels in port. SEALs are used in combat, but as a special ops unit, often they've failed if they are discovered. They don't possess the firepower to be an effective fighting force.

[fnfalman]

Let's get it on!!!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f308/fnfalman/Guns/2011.jpg

[divinlion]

This knife might make quick work of an enemy

YouTube - WASP Injection Knife vs. Watermelon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa_NC-_fvKs)

[Guba]

Works on a shark...since that's essentially what it is, a shark stick.

[rcs9250]

I would definitely have Chuck Norris on my team.

[covediver]

C'mon folks. Every diver who has ever seen Mike Nelson fighting bad guys, the SEAL battle in Thunderball, or the fight scene in Into the Blue has wondered how they would do in an underwater fight against the evil (fill in the blank)... It kind of goes with the territory

see my dormant blog...underwater combat, what in the world.

Covediver's Underwater World: May 2006 (http://covediver.blogspot.com/2006_05_01_archive.html)

[captain]

yet how would a combustion occur, or the powder ignite with no oxygen, and the vaccum of space, it can't happen. I don't think...?

The powder in a cartridge has it own oxidizer. Primer or detonator cord will burn underwater.

[LeadTurn_SD]

Underwater fighting

Silly me.

When I read the title of this thread, I assumed it had to do with married couples diving together (and bickering underwater). :D

I'm a "pacifist" by nature.... I wear 2-3 knives (one large ;) ) to help promote pacifism in others :D

Best wishes.

[USCScubaboy]

Then whose wetsuit can you pee in?:

good question... might have to go back and amend that rule.

[MBD0607]

Regarding the link for Post #30; That's not BUD/S. That is part of the SCUBA Course at Panama City. What you are seeing is "Pool Week", also known as "Problem Solving", which every Student in the Diving Program has to pass before he or she moves on.
BUD/S has the same practice, but they use double hose regulators, as the Drager has that set up, and that is what they move to after passing Pool Week.

[farsidefan1]

Bad guys got no chance. I'll sic Flipper on them.

[USCScubaboy]

Can't believe no one's brought up Aquaman yet...

[Sas]

Hmm have been searching around, I kinda hope it looks something like this

2uoX9roH3uo

[themagni]

Torpedos..ijs

Flamethrowers.

:flame:

[Deep South Divers]

It would likely be very vicious, think Gladiator or 300, as the lack of ranged weapons would mean that everyone's going to be getting really close to each other. Lots of mask and regulator removals, kinda like diving a cattle boat except it's all on purpose.

Peace,
Greg

OMG, some of the funniest posts I've read in a long time. I 'bout died laughing with this one. :)

The question, "Well, then, whose wetsuit CAN I pee in?" dropped me to the floor. :D

[Diver Tim]

Then whose wetsuit can you pee in?:

Why, your vanquished enemy's wetsuit, of course. :shocked2:

[Guba]

Well, if he wasn't your enemy before, he certainly will be after that!

[Nemrod]

Gunpowder is a mixture of sulfur, potassium nitrate (saltpeter) and charcoal. Of course modern firearm propellants are not black powder but the reason we call it a "propellant" is that the mixture contains both a fuel and an oxidizer.


Black powder is, indeed, made up of the three ingredients listed. However, if you specify that a "propellant" is one that contains a "fuel" and an oxidizer, then black powder is most definitely one. Potassium nitrate (KNO3) is a strong oxidizer and, therefore, black powder will burn quite nicely both in a vacuum and underwater (provided you keep your powder dry!).

Yeah, exactly and while I probably should not give away to many formulas, table sugar and saltpeter burn impressively also. N

[kanonfodr]

The situation isn't likely as a Navy Diver at war is primarily involved with explosives ordinance disposal. If he screws up, he's his own worst enemy (you can drop the knife) ;). Alternatively, he's repairing underwater damage to vessels in port. SEALs are used in combat, but as a special ops unit, often they've failed if they are discovered. They don't possess the firepower to be an effective fighting force.

During my last deployment to Iraq we had US Navy EOD on our base and they walked around wearing shirts that said "Navy EOD Diver...PADI My A$$". They are apparently trained in rebreather EOD procedures in addition to all the surface-side stuff every other govt. EOD tech gets. My last landlord (recently retired Navy Diver) never spoke of EOD stuff, but his last deployment was almost to Korea and Vietnam to fish bodies and wreckage out of those waters.

Crazy stories.

Peace,
Greg

[captain]

Navy diver covers a number of specialties, construction and salvage, Seabee's, SEAL's, EOD, etc and there is limited cross over from one to the other. In my avator photo I am wearing a set of twin 90 cu/ft non magnetic tanks used by EOD in the
1960's

Navy Diving | We Dive The World Over (http://www.necc.navy.mil/diver/index.htm)

Navy Explosive Ordnance Disposal (http://www.eod.navy.mil/)

Naval Special Warfare :: Official U.S. Navy Web Site (http://www.sealchallenge.navy.mil/)

https://www.seabee.navy.mil/index.cfm/7268

[tarponchik]

I've read that such hand-to-hand fighting took place in 1986 between South African and Soviet underwater commandos in Angola. Supposedly, the SAfricans damaged some Soviet ships but after underwater skirmishes with the Soviets they made no further attempts.

[40Fathoms]

From diving with military divers, I know that there are various techniques to take an enemy underwater. However, they are generally reserved for the off-chance that you run into an enemy diver while approaching your goal underwater, not for big underwater battles, like the one in "Tunderball". Generally, military divers view diving as a was of approaching the enemy's fortifications or ships in a stealthy manner, not as a battleground. Do love the scene from "Thunderball" though. :-)