Depth Limits for SSI OW Cert?

[SULLIVAN2049]

Hi All,

I have a question concerning depth limits for the different certifications and agencies. I had gone into this thinking that 40' for SSI and 60' for PADI was the initial dive limits from research on the internet although it wasn't very clear. I had really been stressing about this because I was taking SSI OW and thought I would really be limited on my depth. I just finished my classroom work and test for the Open Water certification and the question was about depth and that SSI was good to 130' but recommended staying at 100' for recreational divers. SO after I pass my open water class and get my SSI OW card, does that mean I can dive 60, 80, 90, feet as far as my certification goes? Thanks in advance for everyones input. John

[izibo]

Hi All,

I have a question concerning depth limits for the different certifications and agencies. I had gone into this thinking that 40' for SSI and 60' for PADI was the initial dive limits from research on the internet although it wasn't very clear. I had really been stressing about this because I was taking SSI OW and thought I would really be limited on my depth. I just finished my classroom work and test for the Open Water certification and the question was about depth and that SSI was good to 130' but recommended staying at 100' for recreational divers. SO after I pass my open water class and get my SSI OW card, does that mean I can dive 60, 80, 90, feet as far as my certification goes? Thanks in advance for everyones input. John

There really aren't limits, per say. More strong "suggestions." Even the PADI open water 60' limit is a suggestion for OW divers, with the only limitations being placed on training dives (go figure).

It will really depend on the comfort level of the dive op and you.

[SULLIVAN2049]

Thanks for the input izibo. What I am concerned about is paying for a dive trip in Florida where the ship they are diving on is 80'. I don't want to get there and they say, no you can't go that deep with only the SSI OW Certification,you know?

[Skooter]

It's possible that the dive operator may require additional training, especially if you don't have very much dive experience. The best thing to do is call the dive operator you are planning on using and ask them. That way there will be no surprises when you get there.

[FFPEREZ]

You could always take the SSI Deep Diver class.

The dive shop I am taking my class through recomended that we stay around 60', even though we could go deeper by the certification, til we get some dives under our belts. They had also metioned the deep diver training to us, if we wanted to dive deeper sooner.

[Sas]

Hi All,

I have a question concerning depth limits for the different certifications and agencies. I had gone into this thinking that 40' for SSI and 60' for PADI was the initial dive limits from research on the internet although it wasn't very clear. I had really been stressing about this because I was taking SSI OW and thought I would really be limited on my depth. I just finished my classroom work and test for the Open Water certification and the question was about depth and that SSI was good to 130' but recommended staying at 100' for recreational divers. SO after I pass my open water class and get my SSI OW card, does that mean I can dive 60, 80, 90, feet as far as my certification goes? Thanks in advance for everyones input. John

SSI recommends 60' for OW.

[scubadada]

Thanks for the input izibo. What I am concerned about is paying for a dive trip in Florida where the ship they are diving on is 80'. I don't want to get there and they say, no you can't go that deep with only the SSI OW Certification,you know?

Hey John,

Several Key Largo operators require AOW or recent deep dive experience (2 or more dives deeper than 80 feet in the last year or similar) in order to dive on the Spiegel Grove or the Duane. I would imagine other Florida operators may have similar criteria for deeper dives. I would call ahead to avoid disappointment.

These 2 dives in Key Largo are a piece of cake with little current and good vis, under other circumstances, these dives can be quite challenging, even for the reasonably experienced. I'd seriously consider whether dives like this are right for someone directly out of intitial certification.

Good diving, Craig

[emoreira]

Hi, when I finished my SSI OWD course, there was a question in the theoretical exam regarding the max depth an OWD may dive. The correct answer was 15 mts (50 '). I thought it was 18 mts (60 ').
After ending the exam, I went to the SSI OWD Manual trying to find out the right answer and I could not find any mention in the book to the max allowed depth for an OWD.

The Deep Diving course starts telling that a deep dive is when you dive deeper than 18 mts (60 ') and up to 40 mts (130 ').

[Bappelt]

These are the recommended depths by certification by the SSI standards. They are recommendations, it does not dictate your depth. Your depth should be dictated by the conditions and your skill level.

Recommended Depth Limits: All students, after
certification, should be advised to dive within depth
limits taught during class.
Recommended depth limits, based on the certification
levels, are as follows:
Scuba Diver - 40 feet (12 metres)
Junior Scuba Diver - 40 feet (12 metres, only with a
Dive Professional)
Open Water Diver – 60 feet (18 metres)
Junior Open Water Diver – 60 feet (18 metres, after
certification with no additional training)
Advanced Adventurer – 100 feet (30 metres, when a
Deep Dive was used in the program)
Junior Advanced Adventurer - 70 feet (21 metres)
Deep Diving Specialty Diver –130 feet (40 metres)

[jscott099]

Your OW cert allows you to dive to whatever depth you choose to (the bottom of the ocean if you survive). You are a grown up, you have to make the decision. Now to reality. You are also told that you should be diving in conditions similar to those you were trained in until you gain more experience and/or additional training. One of the primary reasons for initially limiting your maximum depth is the potential for nitrogen narcosis. Dive operators have a right to require whatever they please for diving with them. The last thing they want is an inexperienced diver, with no wreck diving experience, nor deep diving experience causing some sort of problem and offing themselves and a possibly a buddy as well. There is no guarantee that on the NC coast, where I have taught and dove for years, that requiring an AOW cert, deep and wreck specialties, and at least a few deep dives experiences will prevent a catastrophe, but it does lessen the likelihood some. Give yourself some time to have fun with your new cert and gain some experience so when you do go into the deep end, it will also be fun and less stressful.

[Mike Boswell]

... I have a question concerning depth limits ... after I pass my open water class and get my SSI OW card, does that mean I can dive 60, 80, 90, feet ... John


Hi John,

As others point out, the 60' OW depth limit is a recommendation and there are no scuba police out there...yet.

But here is a thought for you to consider: Your actions have consequences for others. The reason there are no scuba police is that we divers have established a reasonably good track record of safety and self-regulation. You can help us to keep it that way by heeding your instructors and following your training.

[SULLIVAN2049]

I want to thank everyone for their imput and research! I am not wanting to just jump off the deep end,no pun intended, but instead would like to stay safe, in the gidelines, and progessivly build up my comfort, experience, and training, while at the same time trying to figure out just how to accomplish this. Additional training is a must in my eyes, but I was really unsure on the path to take. If I have to have deep dives, but I adhear to the 60' standard I didn't see how I could accomplish the requirment for "having deep dive experinece" I guess I will look into the Deep Diver training that SSI provides. I know this is a sport where not only your enjoyment, but your life, depends on your actions and your actions may even have adverse reactions to those you dive with. I am new, eager, and full of questions and you guys have been very helpful. Any additional imput would still be appreciated, especialy on the best way to get Deep Dive experience so I can actually be prepared for a wreck dive in Florida or Caymans,,Thx again.

[DUI_Diver]

Hi All,

I have a question concerning depth limits for the different certifications and agencies. I had gone into this thinking that 40' for SSI and 60' for PADI was the initial dive limits from research on the internet although it wasn't very clear. I had really been stressing about this because I was taking SSI OW and thought I would really be limited on my depth. I just finished my classroom work and test for the Open Water certification and the question was about depth and that SSI was good to 130' but recommended staying at 100' for recreational divers. SO after I pass my open water class and get my SSI OW card, does that mean I can dive 60, 80, 90, feet as far as my certification goes? Thanks in advance for everyones input. John

I did most of my certs through SSI and I was always taught that with just open water training SSI recommends you not go deeper than 60 feet and with the Deep Diver cert they recommend you not go past 100 feet. My opinion is there is no Scuba Police. Dive within your own comfort level but at the same time dive with in the limits of your training.

[KY_BOB]

John, let me throw in one more thing. There is a big difference in going deep in the Caribbean and in the quarry at Hopkinsville. The quarry is MUCH more challenging at any given depth than the Caribbean sea due to lack of visibility and water temp.

A 70' dive in warm water with 100' visibility isn't a real risky dive. In the quarry, the temp at 70' will be in the low 40's year round. It's a different beast.

As mentioned, all anyone can do, including the training agencies, is make recommendations.

[Scottyboy86]

But a wreck dive at 80' off the Yucatan Pen. with a really strong current is a bit tougher for a first dive after OW Cert. You had to be in well shape for that dive. Crawling on the ocean floor and all to make it to the wreck. But it was an awesome dive and well worth the work to do it but I don't recommend to those first diving.

I don't recall ever hearing a number other than you really shouldn't go below 100' for higher possible Narcing.

[tstormdiver]

John, let me throw in one more thing. There is a big difference in going deep in the Caribbean and in the quarry at Hopkinsville. The quarry is MUCH more challenging at any given depth than the Caribbean sea due to lack of visibility and water temp.

A 70' dive in warm water with 100' visibility isn't a real risky dive. In the quarry, the temp at 70' will be in the low 40's year round. It's a different beast.

As mentioned, all anyone can do, including the training agencies, is make recommendations.

While I agree with most you have stated, Bob, I will disagree with your statement about a 70' dive in warm water with 100' vis not being very risky. There are times it can be. It all depends on the local conditions. If you do that dive in a very swift current, down currents or even multiple shifting currents, & you as a diver, are not prepared for it, it can be VERY risky. When I was in Sipadan Malaysia, last year, we encountered some fairly strong currents on our dives. It took me about 2-3 days of diving it to fully adjust. During that time, my air consumption was nothing like it normally is (it sucked, big time:shakehead:). It took me that time to learn to use the current to my advantage, relax, instead of fighting it. Having mostly dove the same quarry & the Caribbean, my exposure to strong currents was extremely limited. Now, one advantage I did have was general experience. I knew when to call a dive because it was too much for me. That is the reason, a diver, with training, mentoring or in very tiny increments, should expose themselves to as many different diving situations as possible. Know SULLIVAN2049, that there is no bad reason to call a dive, & do not be ashamed to end it, if a dive is not going well for you. It is any diver's prerogative to be able to end any dive at any time, for any reason, with no risk of ridicule. If your buddy gives you a hard time about aborting a dive, then they are no buddy that you really want to dive with. Some situations require or highly recommend add'l training before attempting. I will be interning to teach deep diving at the quarry this summer, as Bob mentioned it is a very different environment. The vis usually isn't too bad, in fact it's usually clearer, deep on the bottom than in the shallows (not so many people stirring it up), however it IS cold. Hope to see you at the quarry this summer & get a chance to dive with you..

[KY_BOB]

No disagreements and I should have explained myself better. Thanks Tammy and Scotty.

There can be a VERY dangerous dive in 25' of 80 degree water be it current or lack of vis. That said, there can be 60-70' dives that are safer than the typical dip to 30' in the rock quarry.

Take in the whole picture (all of the circumstances) before making a decision on a dive.




...you guys pretty much agree with that? Depth is only one of a number of factors as to safety. There are a lot and you only have to break one for a dive to become dangerous.

[SULLIVAN2049]

I think everyone has made great points. I think what I am hearing is that all things must be taken into account. I think depth within itself is only a measure of distance, and perhaps not the most important factor in some situations. Being a newbie, things such as current have not really crossed my mind much. I have the "pool" mentality right now and that of a boater in enclosed bodies of water. I can remember once while fishing on the White River though when the dam was releasing water that current did come into play:dork2:

I have been doing what I guess all new divers do, read, read, read, and as Tammy can attest, ask questions, ask questions, ask questions. (Thanks for your patience Tammy) I can see there is alot more to diving than just the dive tables. Bottom time within itself can be drastically different when a current, low visability, poor diver conditioning and lack of training are factored in. Let it be known just for the record that I think 60' is more than I would even consider attempting now just starting out. I am not sure that I would feel comfortable deeper than what I could push off the bottom and reach the surface,lol

Thanks again for all of the experience shared and thinking points that you all have brought out.

[Scottyboy86]

Try holding onto a rope for your dear life doing a safety stop :D You get tired reallllllyyyy quick on that and those 3 minutes feels like the 20-30 minutes you were on the bottom swimming around freely. Heh. Your average dive will probably be 30-60ft, at least mine have been. But yes the ocean adds a lot more variables than an enclosed body of water.

[SULLIVAN2049]

I think you have made a valid point Scotty. There are so any additional factors that would come into play a deeper dive that doesn't just jump out at me when I think about just "pure depth." Ithought you were going to say when I first started reading your thread that perhaps I should just hold onto a piece of rope while I was diving!!:D

[AfterDark]

deleted.

[Web Monkey]

I have a question concerning depth limits for the different certifications and agencies. I had gone into this thinking that 40' for SSI and 60' for PADI was the initial dive limits from research on the internet although it wasn't very clear. I had really been stressing about this because I was taking SSI OW and thought I would really be limited on my depth. I just finished my classroom work and test for the Open Water certification and the question was about depth and that SSI was good to 130' but recommended staying at 100' for recreational divers. SO after I pass my open water class and get my SSI OW card, does that mean I can dive 60, 80, 90, feet as far as my certification goes? Thanks in advance for everyones input. John

A particular agency's "limit" isn't what you should be looking at right now.

The important thing to know is that as you go deeper, you get dumber (narcosis), your air is used up faster (less time to fix problems), CO2 retention may become a problem if you're anxious or your equipment doesn't fit/work like it should and cause panic, and an Emergency Ascent becomes riskier.

I would suggest diving well within your training limits, preferably with a good buddy, and building up to deeper dives gradually (and hopefully with more training). Just because someone will "let" you do a dive doesn't mean that you should or that it's safe for you.

Terry

[BobinNC]

This is a pretty interesting thread and I just finished my SSI Deep class and I remember last year in my OW class the depth limits being very vague, it was even something I questioned on the OW written exam. Right now my wife is taking her OW classes and she just did the exam last week and knows the correct answer for the recreational limit there is 100'.

In the Deep class you are told that 0-60' is the recommended limits for the student and new diver and that anything below 100' (100'-130') requires special training such as the SSI Deep class. I am working on my AOW right now and plan on diving the U-352 and off the NC coast over the memorial weekend and the U-352 sits at 110' fsw and figured it was the prefect time to take a Deep class.

My first Ocean dives were the reefs off of West Palm Beach, FL last year and out of the week of dives I think all but one or two were deeper than 60'. The amaryllis wreck was close to 100' if I remember correctly and that was my deepest dive (about 90'). On that dive I never felt uncomfortable except about not being able to stay in one place because of the current, so you had to quickly see what you wanted to see and move on.

I have to admit having only done the reefs off of Florida and the local quarry I am nervous about NC coast diving and at those depths, but I want to keep moving forward with my training and do the SSI Dive Master and Dive Con courses so I have to keep advancing my experience level. For me I gain confidence by taking on a new challenge, but I have to be careful and not bite off more than I can chew so to speak, and realize if I may need to call my dive if I am too uncomfortable. My biggest fear is current and coming up where there is no boat!

I know for my wife she has absolutely no interest in diving off the NC coast, she wants to dive the reefs off of Florida and the Keys and will be completely content in her diving if that is all she ever does. I think a lot boils down to training and personal preference. I think Tammy Storm's reply said it best as far as calling a dive if you are uncomfortable.

[VGdiver]

I think everyone has made great points. I think what I am hearing is that all things must be taken into account. I think depth within itself is only a measure of distance, and perhaps not the most important factor in some situations. Being a newbie, things such as current have not really crossed my mind much. I have the "pool" mentality right now and that of a boater in enclosed bodies of water. I can remember once while fishing on the White River though when the dam was releasing water that current did come into play:dork2:

I have been doing what I guess all new divers do, read, read, read, and as Tammy can attest, ask questions, ask questions, ask questions. (Thanks for your patience Tammy) I can see there is alot more to diving than just the dive tables. Bottom time within itself can be drastically different when a current, low visability, poor diver conditioning and lack of training are factored in. Let it be known just for the record that I think 60' is more than I would even consider attempting now just starting out. I am not sure that I would feel comfortable deeper than what I could push off the bottom and reach the surface,lol

Thanks again for all of the experience shared and thinking points that you all have brought out.

I think you are beginning to understand the whole point of Continuing Education as it relates to diving. Contrary to what the Old Contrarians say, Con Ed is about getting the opportunity to focus on a specific part of diving (Deep for example in your case) and learning more about it (notice that I didn't say EVERYTHING about it), figuring out what types of equipment are better suited for that specific dive experience, etc. That is the basic premise of it. On the plus side, you are working with an instructor who will not only help you in that discipline but also give you real world applications to help you further your understanding of diving in general. Learning how to spot potential hazards, figuring how the currents work for your area, and which areas to avoid are things that can be learned in any course you take. Con Ed is, for me, an appetizer plate, it gives me the ability to sample parts of diving that I find interesting and allows me to determine if I want to continue on or move to something else.

Here in the BVI, our dives average about 60 ft max. I can do most of these dives with a stopwatch only. No compass, no computer, just based on how long our average divers can breathe at that depth and come back to the boat with a safe reserve left in their tanks (NOTE: I do have all of the above, I'm just trying to make a point). I've been here for 8 years, watching and learning every single dive trip. When I go over to St. Croix and dive the wall, I go with someone down there who knows what they are doing as I don't get to go that deep (120 plus) here. Each person is an expert in their area of expertise. When they want to come up and dive on great shipwrecks and maximize their bottom time, see neat critters and fish, they come see me.

Diving is a great activity and a lot of fun. Some of us are lucky enough to get to do it for a living. My main point is to get the most out of diving - you need to get out there and dive. Deep, shallow, ocean, quarry, just dive. You can't learn too much and I hope you have a heckuva time doing it!


Jeff
SSI DSCI #21761

[KY_BOB]

I think you are beginning to understand the whole point of Continuing Education as it relates to diving. Contrary to what the Old Contrarians say, Con Ed is about getting the opportunity to focus on a specific part of diving (Deep for example in your case) and learning more about it (notice that I didn't say EVERYTHING about it), figuring out what types of equipment are better suited for that specific dive experience, etc. That is the basic premise of it. On the plus side, you are working with an instructor who will not only help you in that discipline but also give you real world applications to help you further your understanding of diving in general. Learning how to spot potential hazards, figuring how the currents work for your area, and which areas to avoid are things that can be learned in any course you take. Con Ed is, for me, an appetizer plate, it gives me the ability to sample parts of diving that I find interesting and allows me to determine if I want to continue on or move to something else.

Here in the BVI, our dives average about 60 ft max. I can do most of these dives with a stopwatch only. No compass, no computer, just based on how long our average divers can breathe at that depth and come back to the boat with a safe reserve left in their tanks (NOTE: I do have all of the above, I'm just trying to make a point). I've been here for 8 years, watching and learning every single dive trip. When I go over to St. Croix and dive the wall, I go with someone down there who knows what they are doing as I don't get to go that deep (120 plus) here. Each person is an expert in their area of expertise. When they want to come up and dive on great shipwrecks and maximize their bottom time, see neat critters and fish, they come see me.

Diving is a great activity and a lot of fun. Some of us are lucky enough to get to do it for a living. My main point is to get the most out of diving - you need to get out there and dive. Deep, shallow, ocean, quarry, just dive. You can't learn too much and I hope you have a heckuva time doing it!


Jeff
SSI DSCI #21761\

I couldn't agree more. There is no substitute but the proper training and experience and don't rush it. The quarry is a great place to train, take classes, and gain experience. It's less than ideal conditions but makes vacation diving seem easy.

If you learn to dive well there, you'll be a good diver. FWIW, schedule permitting,
I'll dive with you any time.

[AfterDark]

I'm NASDS certified (now SSI). I generally go all the way to the bottom. Depth limits are an individual choice. If you don't feel comfortable about going to X depth don't.

[DaZtheSquiD]

HEy Dudes!!

I just joined here today :D cracking forum!!!

I would like to add my two pennies worth , but start by saying I agree with all the comments so far,

BUT! I have just read this whole thread and I have noticed not one mention of insurance( apologies if i missed any) Im from the UK and have just completed my SSI DEEP DIVER course to 40 meters,

and one of the reasons i took it after doing my PADI OW course is the intructor pointed out to me that if you have a problem/accident under water your insurance will generally only cover you to the depth you are CERTIFIED! to dive to which is why i wanted to go to 40M so i can dive to depths abovethat and have that extra buffer to 40m if needed, not sure how your insurance works in the USA etc but just thought it worh mentioning,,,


p.s I am new to recreational diving but am an Ex Royal Navy Diver, so have afar bit of experience despite my junior certifications:crafty:

[SULLIVAN2049]

Good point DaZtheSquiD,

I am looking into my life insurance right now. I think I have to take a special "rider" out to cover diving and there may be some fine print there about depth and coverage. I will post again in a couple of days when I find out.

[tstormdiver]

Good point DaZtheSquiD,

I am looking into my life insurance right now. I think I have to take a special "rider" out to cover diving and there may be some fine print there about depth and coverage. I will post again in a couple of days when I find out.

You also might look at DAN's life insurance. No riders there. It's included on it.

[Marek K]

have just completed my SSI DEEP DIVER course to 40 meters, and one of the reasons i took it after doing my PADI OW course is the intructor pointed out to me that if you have a problem/accident under water your insurance will generally only cover you to the depth you are CERTIFIED!

But... PADI (at least in my son's copyright-1999 OWD Go Dive book) says that "Divers with appropriate experience and/or training may dive as deep as 40 metres/130 feet." That's the only reference I can find to any "maximum" depth for OW divers. Doesn't give any specific experience/training requirements for that depth.

As others have said, the PADI recommendation is 18m/60 ft, implying that's for a novice diver. And a limit of 30m/100 ft is what a diver with "greater" training and experience should limit themselves to -- that's generally recognized as a "deep dive" by PADI and I think SSI. Wise guidance.

But 40m/130 ft is the generally-accepted "recreational" depth limit.

For what it's worth, things have gotten more conservative over the past decades, and that's a good thing. When my wife and I were first PADI OWD certified in 1985, the limit was explicitly 40m/130 ft, period. No mention of shallower recommendations for inexperienced divers.

So if an insurance company is concerned with what depth you're "certified" to, as a recreational diver on any sort it should be 40m/130 ft. By the way, I've queried my health insurance provider about this -- Blue Cross/Blue Shield, one of the largest health insurance networks in the U.S. They couldn't, or wouldn't, tell me. (Yes, I know -- DAN.)


:D cracking forum!!!

Um, "cracking" means "good?" ;)

Just kidding. I knew that... We've got all the Wallace and Gromit videos... :D

[SC_Hoaty]

Hey John,

Several Key Largo operators require AOW or recent deep dive experience (2 or more dives deeper than 80 feet in the last year or similar) in order to dive on the Spiegel Grove or the Duane. I would imagine other Florida operators may have similar criteria for deeper dives. I would call ahead to avoid disappointment.

These 2 dives in Key Largo are a piece of cake with little current and good vis, under other circumstances, these dives can be quite challenging, even for the reasonably experienced. I'd seriously consider whether dives like this are right for someone directly out of intitial certification.

Good diving, Craig

Some of them require AOW AND recent deep dive experience. If not, you need to hire an instructor. I went with a group organized by an instructor, so he signed on my form as my instructor. I have since completed the AOW, including Deep Diving as one of the specialties. Another shop on the SC coast looked at my SSI OW card and was happy to let me join them on a dive to 88 feet. Thus, the advice to call ahead is right on.

If you choose to dive the Keys, there is an awful lot to see in less that 40 feet of water. Lots of fun, and a great way to build experience.

Have fun, keep learning, and stay safe!

[scubawheels]

Deep diving is considered 60 and below, but the recreational dive limits are 130 feet. As far as I've ever understood, that is our limit. I'm not saying you can jump in and hit 130' as a new diver, but that is the true limit in my opinion. Take specialty classes and dive whenever you get a chance. The more experiences the better the diver, typically.

As for trips and dive charters' requirements, why not make the phone call? Then you can ready for the dive with less stress and the entire experince will be better.

[Piccola]

I actually contacted BC/BS to get a better explaination on coverage in the event of a dive accident a few years ago. You are covered for accidents BUT dive accidents more often than not would requir different medical care, primarily the need for a DCS chamber. I do not think BC/BS will cover the cost of it but DAN will. I have BC/BS but opted to get additional dive specific coverage through DAN as I wanted the best possible outcome in the event that I needed it (hopefully I will never).

[OkByMe]

I've been diving safely since 1967, on all kinds of dives, wreck, cave - cavern, wall and spear fishing - from boats and from shore. I did not do any of it until I was ready, had the proper equipment and knew how to use it. I dove with people who were more experienced, who looked out for me, I dove with people who were less experienced and I looked out for them. That is the way it is done. If you follow this safe, progressive method, you should be fine.

I did not need a dive from a boat certification, or a deep (130'AIR) dive certification, or a wreck dive certification, or a cavern dive certification and so on. All I needed was the money. NITROX is about the only thing they can justify since it changes the dive parameters.

I had to finally get a C card to buy air, because they eventually locked that up. (SSI OW certification in 1988), then Nitrox certification to buy better air, because they locked that up. That is all I need from a LDS or dive operator besides the occasional VIP. I have had a problem or 2 with some boats, I at least have a log book to throw around. You may have a problem until you accumulate some extended dives or pay the LDS to take you diving for AOW. Make sure your best dives are documented or your ability to dive will be in the hands of Mom.

But the way the business is becoming all "lawyer-ed up" and the LDS is positioned to benefit by it, I would not be surprised to find them all staging dive certifications - dive shops trying to lockup a revenue source by creating a multi-level tier, is already being done. I'm an adult, In fact an old adult, I make my decisions - know my limits and understand the responsibility. Anyone who does not know that, 4 or 5 hours in a classroom and 5 dives from a boat won't keep'em safe.

Changing the rules in the middle of the game.

[jscott099]

I agree with you OkByMe. Then again we live in a litigious society and part of the cost of doing business is protecting oneself against claims by those who felt you were negligent.

As far as the training tiers. Yep, they are. I don't blame them. As long as folks are willing to pay for it, then they will offer them and market them. The consumer has a choice to opt out.

For me, the wise spending was OW then AOW and Nitrox. It was years later before I ever opted for any additional training and that was not until I was going down the instructor path.

[Piccola]

I just went around on this very issue. I am planning a dive where the site 'requires' deep diver certification, yes the cert card-no console or logbook proof of experience . I assumed that being a OW, AOW, Rescue, and now Master Diver I could go to depths within recreation limits (130'). I actually called Padi and asked them. To my surprise with the training I have noted, the limit is 100'. I looked through all of my course books again and it is a grey area which is why I called Padi. I mistakedly always assumed I was certified to recreation limits (130') assuming I feel comfortable going there.
The deep diver certification can be demanded for any sites below 100'. And I know when I was in florida, they wanted to see the AOW for sites like the Duane/Speigal grove.

[OkByMe]

I have been watching this happen for years. Marketing has taken over the industry, tightening the screws until they get deeper into your wallet. I have managed to avoid the issue by private charter. Now governments are getting into the act like the Bahamas, they are severely limiting private diving, The US park service is doing the same. So now I see on public boats, people who seem to be confused about what they can do by decree rather than what they can do by skill and experience.

[milkmood]

Your OW cert allows you to dive to whatever depth you choose to (the bottom of the ocean if you survive). You are a grown up, you have to make the decision. Now to reality. You are also told that you should be diving in conditions similar to those you were trained in until you gain more experience and/or additional training. One of the primary reasons for initially limiting your maximum depth is the potential for nitrogen narcosis. Dive operators have a right to require whatever they please for diving with them. The last thing they want is an inexperienced diver, with no wreck diving experience, nor deep diving experience causing some sort of problem and offing themselves and a possibly a buddy as well. There is no guarantee that on the NC coast, where I have taught and dove for years, that requiring an AOW cert, deep and wreck specialties, and at least a few deep dives experiences will prevent a catastrophe, but it does lessen the likelihood some. Give yourself some time to have fun with your new cert and gain some experience so when you do go into the deep end, it will also be fun and less stressful.

I think jscott pretty much sums it up here. There really is no hard limit set by any certification that I know of, but if you want to live to dive another day:

:clapping:always always always dive within your comfort zone and common sense
:no:never never never let anybody pressure you into going beyond that
:clapping:always always always mind the mathematics of diving with regard to gas consumption, nitrogen absorption, and time limitations and requirements.

Take a minute or two to practice a skill from your certifications on every dive. And have fun!

[Piccola]

I hate to be the voice of disagreement BUT, I disagree that your OW cert allows you to dive wherever you want in certain situations. You will find many dive operators will want to see cert levels in addidion to proof of experience. You may be a very experienced deep diver who has been refused boarding on a boat heading to a deep site while an AOW diver with little experience will be waved through. I am not saying that I agree with this but it is a fact. I have done a considerable amount of research for dive planning and these are the rules I have found and wanted to pass on here.

[OkByMe]

I misquoted myself in a previous post... SSI OW 1978, not 88. Maybe there is some justification for changing the rules of instruction after all these years other than trying to create additional revenue for the LDS. The only one I can think of is that maybe people were smarter back then and I know were a little more ballsy. The equipment was somewhat primitive compared to that used today and all the while the conditions remain the same, so that has to be it! Big, big safety margin. Smart and ballsy - opportunity... dumb and ballsy - funeral procession... smart and timid - not much fun... dumb and timid - sell your gear and take up golf.

Seriously... are some people so overwhelmed with trying to manage just 4 things while in the drink, that they have to have all the hand holding? All that aside, I have some pertinent info..

I just came back from a 2 week stay in the keys - Largo and West. At Largo, I dove with Ocean Divers and they were great. 2 big boats, dive shop and boats at the marina, a parking lot with plenty of parking next to the boats. A safe operation and you can dive your profile - but no decompression. They don't provide safety stop stage, so if you want the extra margin, you'll have to pony. They rig a surface granny and tag for the little bit of current. All I had to do to dive on the 2 deep wrecks was show them my computer log and OW C-card. The deepest I went was about 95' for a short to swim to the weather deck where a few big honkin Groupers were hanging out in a hatch-less passageway. Both the Spiegle Grove and Duane can be interesting 60' dives. Visibility was good enough to see the sand from time to time. Big Bulls come and go around the Duane. For the reefs - ask to go to the south end of molasses. That is where all the livestock swim through the coral finger banks. French had too much silt and further North, like Christ of the deep, is pretty beat up.

Key West Divers had me fill out a 10 dive log sheet along with the OW SSI C-card. They don't rig stage ether and run a sub surface 15' granny from the anchor line. it is needed because of the current - pretty bad on the Vandenburg, it will blow you off the wreck if you don't tether or hold. No decompression. The dive is guided and in teams of 4, boat carries about 12-15. The guide carries a pony. Not a novice dive. Most of the upper structure is pretty close to the surface... it also can be a good 60'- 80' dive. I did not have much fun with it since I spent the dive ducking behind bulkheads and holding on. I came up the smokestack down-current and when I cleared the top, it almost blew my mask off. If you want to hang around in the Antennas, you will have to go to about 80' swimming along a bulkhead and ascend to the framework and pull yourself along. The dive is an air-burner, so you might want to pony up that one too. Good swim throughs. Safety stop on the anchor line had me flapping like a flag in the wind! The reefs are pretty good, lots of coral finger, but the visibility could have been better. The only problem with Key West divers is that they are inconvenient. You setup your gear in front of the shop and they pack it in a pickup to the boat, then you drive to the marina. Kind of messed up my pre-dive ritual I have established over the years. After the dive, you can pack your gear, but no place to rinse it, unless you go back to their shop.

I don't like that. I also don't like having my gear out of sight or handled by someone else. I still have in use, a US Divers calypso 4 and Aquarius regulators on 2 of my stages. These dudes are over 30 years old and work flawlessly because I re-build them and take care of them. Don't ask to borrow my Rods or tackle ether.

[DevonDiver]

Glad to see the OP asking this; with a view to checking those recommendations and considering further appropriate training for the potential dive site. It's certainly better than the alternative approach taken some divers...

Always makes me chuckle when some people graduate from scuba courses, knowing full well what their recommended limitations are.... and then immediately seek consent to break those recommendations.

The agency spells it out. The instructor spells it out. So why not seek the approval of random, anonymous internet folks to over-ride what has just been taught?? ;)

[Thalassamania]

By way of acknowledging bias, I come from a diving community that is, one hand, far more restrictive concerning depth, we start with a restriction of 30 feet; but we also provide a clear and well defined path to deeper diving, all the way down to 190 feet.

I think that many people have questions about the various limits and recommendations of the recreational diving agencies because they see them for what they are, recommendations more designed the agency's well being than for the diver's well being.

[DevonDiver]

I think that many people have questions about the various limits and recommendations of the recreational diving agencies because they see them for what they are, recommendations more designed the agency's well being than for the diver's well being.


The only benefit for the agency/industry is that those courses are charged for, rather than free or inclusive. Having a progressive system of training, designed to allow a progressive development of diving seems entirely logical.

How does that actually detract the safety benefit to the student?

It boils down to the requirement for X training and Y experience, needed to safely complete Zdive.

[SC_Hoaty]

It boils down to the requirement for X training and Y experience, needed to safely complete Zdive.

Or is it a recommendation, not a requirement, from the agencies' points of view? The only way the "requirement" is enforced is by the various charter operations, who each have slightly different practices. No charter (shore dive, for example), no "requirement" being enforced.



How does that actually detract the safety benefit to the student?

By failing to inform them of what they do NOT know about exceeding the "recommendation." As an example, that gas consumption increases with depth.

[boulderjohn]

By failing to inform them of what they do NOT know about exceeding the "recommendation." As an example, that gas consumption increases with depth.

There are agencies that don't teach this? I'm surprised.

I only know what PADI teaches in this regard. Students are required to calculate the degree to which gas consumption increases with depth on the final exam, so it has to be taught during the course.

Which agencies do not teach this?

[SC_Hoaty]

Fair question, Boulderjohn - and maybe a poor example on my part. I was not PADI trained, so I'm not sure what knowledge necessary for safe diving below 60 feet is omitted from their OW course, and only provided during AOW. Perhaps you can provide a better example?

[Thalassamania]

The only benefit for the agency/industry is that those courses are charged for, rather than free or inclusive. Having a progressive system of training, designed to allow a progressive development of diving seems entirely logical.

How does that actually detract the safety benefit to the student?

It boils down to the requirement for X training and Y experience, needed to safely complete Zdive.You're missing the point, I guess that comes from working in a less litigious experiment.

As far as a progressive development of diving with respect to depth and conditions, I could not agree more, but I don't really see that from any of the agencies except as what I would consider "lip service."

[boulderjohn]

Fair question, Boulderjohn - and maybe a poor example on my part. I was not PADI trained, so I'm not sure what knowledge necessary for safe diving below 60 feet is omitted from their OW course, and only provided during AOW. Perhaps you can provide a better example?

Sorry--can't think of anything, really.

I think the real bone of contention is that we don't do enough with gas planning in general. At the OW level, students are taught to check with their gauges frequently to make sure they don't run out of air. I wish there were more in the regular course, so I include more in my course--specifically, some guidelines as to when to begin an ascent in terms of remaining air. And, even, though they are supposed to be limited to 60 feet, I include ascents from deeper depths.

[SC_Hoaty]

Sorry--can't think of anything, really.

I think the real bone of contention is that we don't do enough with gas planning in general. At the OW level, students are taught to check with their gauges frequently to make sure they don't run out of air. I wish there were more in the regular course, so I include more in my course--specifically, some guidelines as to when to begin an ascent in terms of remaining air. And, even, though they are supposed to be limited to 60 feet, I include ascents from deeper depths.

Sounds like it must be only about money then!

Can you rationalize why PADI doesn't require additional diving experience beyond OW certification dives before admitting a student to the AOW course? DevonDiver was advocating for combined experience and training before increasing depth.

[Thalassamania]

Here are the issues as I see it:

1) Gas management is gas management. The concept is the same regardless of depth and all divers should have a good working knowledge of how to plan gas usage for a dive. One ATA or Seven ATA, it's all the same in terms of planning. There just less actual room for error as you get deeper, but I don't see that there should be any permissible error in gas planning regardless of depth.

2) There is a clear interactive term between conditions and depth. 130 feet in warm, clear, tropical waters is rather different than 100 feet in the North Atlantic or North Pacific.

3) While there is a clear body of knowledge that all divers should master, experience is a whole 'nother story. Some divers are virtually narc-proof others are in trouble at 60 feet. There seems to be almost universal agreement that slowly increasing depth with each dive is a good approach, but there is no policy anywhere (except through AAUS) that actually addresses how to conduct such dives, the qualifications of proper buddies, etc.

[boulderjohn]

Sounds like it must be only about money then!

Can you rationalize why PADI doesn't require additional diving experience beyond OW certification dives before admitting a student to the AOW course? DevonDiver was advocating for combined experience and training before increasing depth.

I'm sorry, but I can't see any connection between what I wrote and your conclusions. I took my AOW immediately after my OW class, and I'm glad I did. It gave me the extra knowledge and training that was helpful to me as I increased my depth experiences. If I had just started going deeper without any training, how would that have benefited me?

[SC_Hoaty]

If I had just started going deeper without any training, how would that have benefited me?

I was thinking more along the lines of progressive dives to the OW recommended depth before getting a card with a deeper recommended depth. I was not advocating exceeding the OW recommended depth without training.

Just trying to understand if there are agencies that require divers follow DevonDiver's statement:

It boils down to the requirement for X training and Y experience, needed to safely complete Z dive.

I gather from Thal's statements that his students have depth limits more stringently controlled than the rec agencies do for their students/graduates.

[Thalassamania]

...
I gather from Thal's statements that his students have depth limits more stringently controlled than the rec agencies do for their students/graduates.
Here's how we work: Depth Certifications are: 30, 60, 90, 130, 150, 190. Each depth bracket requires 12 dives with an approved buddy (for a minimum bottom time sum). A diver may exceed his or her depth Certification by one step when diving a buddy who is Certified to a deeper depth. In most cases this means that the average diver is making twenty to thirty dives in each bracket prior to applying for a new depth certification.

In addition, a 60 foot Certification requires taking a rather rigorous written exam composed of decompression theory, decompression problems, decompression planning and gas management issues. Passing on the exam is 100%, no errors. You do not get a pass by "remediation" of wrong answers, you come back another time and retake the entire exam.

Changes in depth certification requires a recommendation of the Diving Safety Officer a vote of the Diving Control Board (whose members, in the case of deeper certs have likely dove with the candidate) and the signature of the Chairman of the Diving Control Board (he gets what amounts to a veto).

[DevonDiver]

Here's how we work: Depth Certifications are: 30, 60, 90, 130, 150, 190. Each depth bracket requires 12 dives with an approved buddy (for a minimum bottom time sum)..

Can't argue with that. BSAC used to have a simular (but not as robust) system at Sports Diver level, where students needed to be 'signed off' with (5, I think) dives at increasing depth levels.

Of course, there is no reason why any individual dive shop/instructor could not run a policy like this. However, it would likely bring them a significant business disadvantage compared to other shops who allowed students more leeway to set their own limits.

The key solution is to instil students with a responsible mindset- then it doesn't matter which system/agency they use. It doesn't matter whether the novice diver adheres to a formal, agency implemented, 'layered depth' approach that links depths with dives... or whether they choose to adopt a personal progressive development plan.

I always believe it is best if the student chooses this approach for themselves... that they believe and understand the need for it. Otherwise, despite any regulations, restrictions or recommendations that might be made to them, they will always have the right and opportunity to dive irresponsibly..


Can you rationalize why PADI doesn't require additional diving experience beyond OW certification dives before admitting a student to the AOW course? DevonDiver was advocating for combined experience and training before increasing depth.

Because AOW is a course, where an instructor supervises students and keeps them safe. To withhold training, after OW, until the student had completed more dives would create a training void at the precise time in their diving development when they were most vulnerable...and most in need of that extra training.

5 additional supervised dives on AOW...leading to increased depth at the end of the course. It is 'lite', but there is a correlation between increased (supervised) experience and training...with the depth progression from 18m to 30m.

It could, however, be argued that more training/experience is needed for independant diving at 30m. Either that or the AOW recommended max could be reduced to 25m.

That said, PADI do emphasis that students should gain experience progressively. They are also repeatedly advised to plan their dives within the limits of their training and experience.

A problem arises when divers see their c-card as a 'ticket' to dive to a certain depth. "I am AOW, I can dive to 30m". This sort of mentality should be better addressed within the scope of course materials...and guidelines to the teaching instructors.... but it isn't.

[blake7]

Here's how we work: Depth Certifications are: 30, 60, 90, 130, 150, 190. Each depth bracket requires 12 dives with an approved buddy (for a minimum bottom time sum). A diver may exceed his or her depth Certification by one step when diving a buddy who is Certified to a deeper depth. In most cases this means that the average diver is making twenty to thirty dives in each bracket prior to applying for a new depth certification.

In addition, a 60 foot Certification requires taking a rather rigorous written exam composed of decompression theory, decompression problems, decompression planning and gas management issues. Passing on the exam is 100%, no errors. You do not get a pass by "remediation" of wrong answers, you come back another time and retake the entire exam.

Changes in depth certification requires a recommendation of the Diving Safety Officer a vote of the Diving Control Board (whose members, in the case of deeper certs have likely dove with the candidate) and the signature of the Chairman of the Diving Control Board (he gets what amounts to a veto).

Thal, who is "we" in the above quote?

Thanks!

[Thalassamania]

We is generically the Scientific Diving Community or more specifically the Research Diving Safety Programs that I have worked with/under.

[Piccola]

This is lots of good commentary but we may have drifted from the OP's question regarding certification levels. Interestingly (for OkbyMe) I am in Key Largo Florida diving with Rainbow reef and they did want to see my AOW/Deep Diver C-Card before allowing me passage to Spiegal Grove. I admittedly have also been out with other boats who have not asked but, in my experience, most have wanted to see the divers appropriate skill level via their C-Card. I will also state that actual dive experience, to me, is paramount in accessing your own skills and demonstrating safe diver practices.

[ScoobaSam]

Bappelt has it mostly right... Even though this post is dated, I would like to reiterate that the SSI standards dictate a maximum openwater depth of 60 feet. Deep diver certification is required to be certified to deeper depths up to 100 feet. Anything beyond that depth is now considered technical diving... Don't be surprised if the depth limits continue to decrease. When I got certified the Open water limit was 100 feet and the deep limit was 130... I would highly recommend to anyone interested in diving to depths greater than ~80 feet, to take a deep diver course and to progress carefully and deliberatly. There is always the next dive, don't take any chances on this one.

[DevonDiver]

We is generically the Scientific Diving Community or more specifically the Research Diving Safety Programs that I have worked with/under.

I'm not trying to be flippant... this is a genuine question....

Your posts illustrate that the scientific diving community has an exceptionally high level of diving tuition, with ample time for above-average skill and knowledge development etc

So how come that all the 'scientists/biologists/researchers' etc that I see on TV documentaries exhibit a very low standard of diving skill? (bad trim, dangling SPGs and Octos, kicking up the reef etc). It's a trend that I've noticed often when watching dive related programmes on Nat Geo and Discovery channel.... :dontknow:

[dpaustex]

As an Instructor up to AOW, I want to throw in a couple of comments.

A "card" does not a diver make. You can take a class, get a "card" for this or that, but that doesn't necessarily qualify you for a particular dive. Let me explain.

The original question was OW "depth" and talk of diving the Spiegel Grove.

Generally, the recommendation is that an OW card has given you adequate training for OW diving to 60 feet. Anything beyond 60 feet is considered "deep" (all you techies, I'm talking recreational diving, by defintion, so don't flame me, 'k?).

The reason anything over 60 is considered "deep" is that different things generally start happening beyond 60 feet. The incidence of narcosis goes up. Your gas consumption is occuring at a faster rate (psi/min), due to depth. You combine these two, and you can have issues (not will, but can).

The original post was diving Spiegel Grove (SG). Most of the operators require AOW (which includes a deep certification in most agencies) or 2 logged dives to at least 90 feet in the past year (or similar). But that isn't the whole story.

First time I tried to dive the SG, we went out and couldn't see the mooring buoy, as the current was so strong, it pushed in underwater. No divers went in the water. Next day, only half of the buoy was out, but they put us in the water, anyway. The current was 3-4 knots, and we had to swim to the next bouy, while the deckhands yelled at us which way to swim, then we had to grab it as we flew past. As we were "wind-socked", we had to make our way down the line in a ripping current. Current lessened at about 70 feet, but still there. So now you're worrying about getting blown off the wreck (which impacts your air consumption). Those few stressors take a toll on your air-supply, especially if you're a newer diver, in a totally new dive environment (current).

So, you could have your AOW card, or your 2 requisite dives, but those stressors can really suck up your air. Even on that dive, experieced divers blew through a tank in under 10 mins, due the stressor added by the current.

Folks, there is no hurry to learn this stuff. Add one new thing at a time, learn the experience, enjoy the dive, then come back and add something else. Please don't try and add too many new things at once, as you are adding stressors, which can lead to a bad situation. The ocean isn't going anywhere, and will be there to enjoy.

[ScoobaSam]

dpaustex... Amen brother... A C-Card is nothing more than a license to learn.

devondiver... I too have noticed that discovery show hosts get certified to dive for a show or two. This does not make them divers... I actually have seen a couple of shows where the Shows host was diving extremely deep... You could tell the host had no experience and that the support crew was all over him... That's hollywood, man. It don't mean that they are truly divers.

[tstormdiver]

Bappelt has it mostly right... Even though this post is dated, I would like to reiterate that the SSI standards dictate a maximum openwater depth of 60 feet. Deep diver certification is required to be certified to deeper depths up to 100 feet. Anything beyond that depth is now considered technical diving... Don't be surprised if the depth limits continue to decrease. When I got certified the Open water limit was 100 feet and the deep limit was 130... I would highly recommend to anyone interested in diving to depths greater than ~80 feet, to take a deep diver course and to progress carefully and deliberatly. There is always the next dive, don't take any chances on this one.

I'm curious where you got this information. I was just reading over SSI's newest revisions (2011) of its standards, SSI's recomendations for depth is: OWD is a recommended maximum depth of 60 ft. (40 ft for Jr. OWD), Advanced Adventurer, who has done a deep dive as part of the course, has a recomended maximum depth of 100 ft & a diver with deep specialty training is a maximum of 130 ft (maximum recreational limit). The minimum depth for deep is considered at 60 ft. Going to 130 ft is still concidered recreational.

[DevonDiver]

devondiver... I too have noticed that discovery show hosts get certified to dive for a show or two. This does not make them divers... I actually have seen a couple of shows where the Shows host was diving extremely deep... You could tell the host had no experience and that the support crew was all over him... That's hollywood, man. It don't mean that they are truly divers.

I mean the scientists themselves...not the tv show hosts.

[BurhanMuntasser]

DevonDiver,

What you are describing concerning "scientific" divers inattention to their diving skills is a common observation I had myself in person. The worst types are the archeologists who seem to be oblivious to what's around them and so focused on their work only. Some scientists are so consumed and focused on their science, they forget about safety and proper diving techniques. They have to have a DM chasing them U/W just to make sure that they don't hurt themselves.

What I said above is a generalization but it is a first hand observation based on my working with some "scientific" divers in the past as a DM/Safety Diver. Many of these folks were trained through recreational training centers not through Scientific Diving programs. BTW, the worst ones are the older "Professor" types who, in their mind, can't possibly be wrong in whatever they are doing.

[ScoobaSam]

Thanks for the catch there TSTORMDIVER
I get my info the same place as you... Only I am prone to typos, especially when I try to use the 10 key pad on my crappy keyboard.

My statement earlier
"Deep diver certification is required to be certified to deeper depths up to 100 feet."
was incorrect...

I really was thinking '130' when I mistyped '100'. I don't need to be typing 3 AM.
So to be perfectly precise, here it is in list format:

Scuba Diver – 40 feet (12 metres)
Junior Scuba Diver – 40 feet (12 metres, only with a Dive Professional)
Open Water Diver – 60 feet (18 metres)
Junior Open Water Diver – 60 feet (18 metres, after certification with no additional training)
Advanced Adventurer – 100 feet (30 metres, when a Deep Dive was used in the program)
Junior Advanced Adventurer – 70 feet (21 metres)
Deep Diving Specialty Diver –130 feet (40 metres)

Sorry for any confusion there.

[tstormdiver]

Thanks for the catch there TSTORMDIVER
I get my info the same place as you... Only I am prone to typos, especially when I try to use the 10 key pad on my crappy keyboard.

My statement earlier
"Deep diver certification is required to be certified to deeper depths up to 100 feet."
was incorrect...

I really was thinking '130' when I mistyped '100'. I don't need to be typing 3 AM.
So to be perfectly precise, here it is in list format:

Scuba Diver – 40 feet (12 metres)
Junior Scuba Diver – 40 feet (12 metres, only with a Dive Professional)
Open Water Diver – 60 feet (18 metres)
Junior Open Water Diver – 60 feet (18 metres, after certification with no additional training)
Advanced Adventurer – 100 feet (30 metres, when a Deep Dive was used in the program)
Junior Advanced Adventurer – 70 feet (21 metres)
Deep Diving Specialty Diver –130 feet (40 metres)

Sorry for any confusion there.

No problem. :D

[SSIdiver]

Sorry for such a late post, but for SSI the real RECOMENDED MAXIMUM DEPTH for OW is 100ft, but they tell you 60ft. Even the SSI dive shop owner/instructor in my town will tell you this.

[ScottyJoefish]

Take your time and get some more dives in your log. Take a Stress and Rescue class. Take a night dive class. Take a Boat dive class. And before you decided to dive deep take a Deep Dive class. Dive prepared and dive safe. It's not just your life on the line so to speak. Plan your dive and dive your plan and most of all Have Fun. One more thing Train Train And Train some more.