(Apologies in advance for a lack of proper html links below...)
I read about this story and did not see it posted here. So I thought I would post and ask a "noob" question...
Here is the story about an injured diver and exhausted dive buddy:
Two divers rescued at Brackett's Landing by ferry crew
http://edmonds.komonews.com/content/two-divers-rescued-bracketts-landing
And a follow up to the story:
BCD problems led to problem for Edmonds diver http://edmonds.komonews.com/content/bcd-problems-led-problem-edmonds-diver
My noob question is about how the BCD "lifted up and caused his wife to become inverted in the water".
I see how this could happen with the dry suit and the article later mentions she will start diving again when she gets a new dry suit. I don't, however, see how this could happen with the BCD. Granted I have only dove with one type of BCD and quite like the one I have. Hence, the noob factor to my question...
Are there types/style's of BCD's that will tend to invert a diver under certain circumstances?
I try to read here and learn as much as I can from different situations. This one struck me because of my own ignorance about other BCD's. And this might be a handy piece of info to have when familiarizing myself with my dive buddy's gear.
The second link above mentions the diver's wish to remain anonymous. I certainly have no intention of invading said privacy and only hope to gather a bit of info.
BTW, I am happy to hear everyone made it out OK. I certainly wish the best for them.
Cheers,
Danny
sydney-diver
March 31st, 2010, 06:17 AM
Hard to say, sounds like she was on the surface and ended up with her face immersed. Pure speculation, one way this can happen is with rear-inflate BC's, on the surface they tend to tip you forwards. Traditional jacket BC's act more like a life jacket and hold you vertical. Another possibility is a jackey style BC which is too large, the wearer could effectively fall down through it on the surface if the waist strap and chest straps were loose, esp if they're wearing a weight belt?
Pubcrawler
March 31st, 2010, 10:07 AM
I learned about ankle weights by bobbing around in a shell with inflated legs one time years ago. Everybody had a good laugh while I was thinking about how dangerous that would have been under other circumstances. When I inflated my BC it just floated me horizontally face down. Full tank so low stress, but all I could do was roll on to my back, arch my legs down and let the air bubble out the neck seal. Moving my arms was not on the menu at that point. Once the air gets into your legs in those sack suits there isn't much that's going to happen except an uncontrolled and awkward upside down ride topside.
TSandM
March 31st, 2010, 10:23 AM
There's been a lot of discussion of this one on our local board. Most of us can't figure out how a BC could invert her, but we can all see how an autoinflating BC could cause an unexpected ascent, and air in the feet of the drysuit could expand and put her in an inverted posture.
parzdiver
March 31st, 2010, 10:24 AM
Very glad everyone was okay. I am just completing my rescue class and this reinforces for me the importance of even basic rescue training.
Sounds more like a dry suit problem, a back inflate BC can put you face down if over inflated, but a dry suit can get you inverted. There is the line in the one article:
He says that his wife is still shaken up by what happened on Saturday, but she will be back diving as soon as she gets a new dry suit.
all4scuba05
March 31st, 2010, 06:46 PM
There's been a lot of discussion of this one on our local board. Most of us can't figure out how a BC could invert her, but we can all see how an autoinflating BC could cause an unexpected ascent, and air in the feet of the drysuit could expand and put her in an inverted posture.
Thats what I was picturing.
bugfarmer
April 1st, 2010, 02:55 AM
There's been a lot of discussion of this one on our local board. Most of us can't figure out how a BC could invert her, but we can all see how an autoinflating BC could cause an unexpected ascent, and air in the feet of the drysuit could expand and put her in an inverted posture.
Ah! Thanx for that mention. I had looked for the thread there, and had not previously seen it. I do see it now. Will go read up...
Cheers,
Danny
Lone Frogman
April 1st, 2010, 04:46 AM
When do the reporters ever get the story straight? :confused:
openmindOW
April 1st, 2010, 09:52 AM
Was the female diver wearing a drysuit?
diver 85
April 1st, 2010, 10:15 AM
?bi bc.....
cdolphin
April 1st, 2010, 02:25 PM
There's been a lot of discussion of this one on our local board. Most of us can't figure out how a BC could invert her, but we can all see how an autoinflating BC could cause an unexpected ascent, and air in the feet of the drysuit could expand and put her in an inverted posture.
As an example of what could happen, and hopefully someone can learn from my ignorance......
My first dive in my new gear was also my first dive in an AOW class which for some unknown reason was also the Deep Dive in that class....apparently it isn't supposed to be the first dive in AOW.
That said, it was my first COLD water dive in Puget Sound with a back-inflate BC (with a 5mm shortie over a 7mm semi-dry wetsuit; lots of neoprene, which just adds to the buoyancy issues.) In my case a semi head-down attitude at some point during the dive caused air to get trapped in the lower part of the BC bladder and unbeknownst to me, I didn't have all of the air vented out. As I returned from depth with a lower-on-air tank, that air trapped in the lower portion of the bladder caused me to "stand on my head" and was threatening to cause an ascent. I tried to use the inflator hose to dump air, but it wouldn't vent, since I was feet-up. I didn't know enough to orient myself vertically - and I remember thinking I was going to bounce to the surface feet first. Not a good plan after a deep dive. I had no idea what was going on. Not until after the dive was I told that the Instructor had come behind and vented some (or all) of the air using the bottom dump valve. I was so new (and, admittedly dumb - I should have become more familiar with the gear first) I didn't even know there was a bottom dump valve. But that air-dump still wasn't enough to keep my feet down. To stay down, I had to kick down for the rest of the ascent, which thankfully was a shore dive/gradual ascent.
An empty BC and more weight in general didn't cure the problem for subsequent dives. I started adding ankle weights and they keep my feet down, but I still haven't figured out how to solve the problem in any other way. I don't have this problem in warm water with this gear - so I keep coming back to the wetsuit, but I don't know any other possible causes or solutions.
NWGratefulDiver
April 1st, 2010, 03:27 PM
I have been told that she was wearing one of these (http://www.aqualung.com/us/content/view/39/126/) ... caveat being that I wasn't there and didn't see for myself whether or not she was.
That said, I am unaware of any BCD that will cause you to "turn upside down" on a runaway ascent ...
... Bob (Grateful DIver)
Web Monkey
April 1st, 2010, 03:36 PM
Very glad everyone was okay. I am just completing my rescue class and this reinforces for me the importance of even basic rescue training.
Sounds more like a dry suit problem, a back inflate BC can put you face down if over inflated, but a dry suit can get you inverted. There is the line in the one article:
He says that his wife is still shaken up by what happened on Saturday, but she will be back diving as soon as she gets a new dry suit.It's too bad she's wasting money on a new suit. There's almost certainly nothing wrong with her old suit that a little service or a new valve or two couldn't fix, and she should have been trained to handle inflator/exhaust failures.
Terry
Web Monkey
April 1st, 2010, 03:38 PM
I have been told that she was wearing one of these (http://www.aqualung.com/us/content/view/39/126/) ... caveat being that I wasn't there and didn't see for myself whether or not she was.
I've never seen one like that. What's the red lever-thingie?
Terry
NWGratefulDiver
April 1st, 2010, 03:49 PM
I've never seen one like that. What's the red lever-thingie?
Terry
... the elevator button ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
NWGratefulDiver
April 1st, 2010, 03:51 PM
It's too bad she's wasting money on a new suit. There's almost certainly nothing wrong with her old suit that a little service or a new valve or two couldn't fix, and she should have been trained to handle inflator/exhaust failures.
Terry
Quite likely the EMTs cut her out of her old suit ... in which case it probably ain't repairable ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
reo
April 16th, 2010, 10:42 PM
I called up a friend to see if he and his wife wanted to dive. He asked if had heard what happened recently at Edmonds Underwater Park. His wife was the one who was pulled from the water.
She was wearing an Aqualung Pearl I3 BC and a drysuit. From what I understand, they were looking at a sunken boat and they lost sight of each other. She had a little too much air in her drysuit and started to float up, feet first. She got tangled in kelp on the way up, and ended up on the surface with her feet in the air. There was some current that carried her toward the Ferry. She tried to dump her weights from an inverted position, but was unable to release the weights. She then decided to ditch the BC, and tried to remove it. She was able to get the BC off, but forgot to disconnect the drysuit hose. The BC went down around her head and arms, and stopped there, when it reached the point where the drysuit hose wouldn't let it go any further. Eventually she passed out from exhaustion from trying to free herself. I don't know if her reg was pulled out of her mouth when she tried to ditch the BC.
The crew on the ferry saw a diver in distress and launched a small boat to assist. When they pulled her from the water, she was not breathing and had no pulse. They performed CPR and she was revived. She was taken to the hospital and observed (I don't know for how long, but it was at least overnight).
The husband noticed she was gone, looked for her, couldn't find her, and surfaced to see if she had surfaced. The current was fairly strong, and he had to hold on to a buoy to avoid being carried into the ferry lane. The ferry crew picked him up as well.
They EMTs cut her drysuit off while they were trying to revive her.
This incident has a happy ending. Wife is fine now, and wants to continue diving. They've ordered her another drysuit. They are having a crotch strap installed on her BC. DAN is paying for the drysuit.
After listening to all that happened, I'll probably be using a weight belt or harness to take some of the weight out of my BC. I never liked the fact that me and my drysuit were very positively buoyant while my BC and tank were very negatively buoyant.
I'm curious to see how she'll be on their next dive. I'm amazed that she is still wanting to dive. I'm not sure how I would react if it happened to me.
Ron
Tricia
April 17th, 2010, 06:01 AM
"She had a little too much air in her drysuit and started to float up, feet first. She got tangled in kelp on the way up, and ended up on the surface with her feet in the air. There was some current that carried her toward the Ferry."
Dear God! And this woman wants to go diving again? I applaud her!!! :cheerleader:
Trish
knowone
April 17th, 2010, 07:49 AM
A belt also slows air transfer within the suit which makes it more manageable. I think.
RJP
April 17th, 2010, 08:31 AM
When do the reporters ever get the story straight? :confused:
Surprised they didn't say "She inflated her drysuit with her oxygen tank..."
ianr33
April 17th, 2010, 08:47 AM
She had a little too much air in her drysuit and started to float up,
Which is an excellent reason NOT to use a drysuit for buoyancy.
TSandM
April 17th, 2010, 12:33 PM
Having gone to the surface feet first in a drysuit before, I can empathize with her situation. The best solution, which is to fully inflate the BC, isn't immediately intuitive, but it is extremely effective.
The one part of the story that makes no sense to me at all is how she got "tangled in kelp" at Edmonds in the winter. There is never much kelp at Edmonds, even in midsummer, and in the winter, there are isolated single stalks.
At any rate, one of the takeaways I get from reading this is that people really ought to practice ditching their weights, and make sure it is easily done in a variety of positions. It is also a cautionary tale on the value of staying calm and rationally assessing the problem. It is not an issue if you are on the surface, hanging from your feet, if you have gas. If you have gas, you have time to think through the problem, at which time inflating the BC becomes the obvious solution.
Ayisha
April 17th, 2010, 03:55 PM
Does anyone know if she had any instruction in using the drysuit and troubleshooting as well as practice using the drysuit prior to that dive?
Web Monkey
April 17th, 2010, 04:30 PM
A belt also slows air transfer within the suit which makes it more manageable. I think.
Being properly weighted means that the suit won't contain enough air to make movement a problem.
People tend to blow them off as unnecessary, but I'm a big proponent of a good drysuit class for new drysuit owners. A little tuning and some information goes a really long way.
I also really like weight harnesses. They tend to retain large amounts of weight much better than any BC I've seen.
Terry
Ayisha
April 17th, 2010, 04:44 PM
For those people concerned about a back-inflated BC pitching a diver face-forward, that sometimes happens because the diver's weights are improperly balanced. A diver who is tipping forward at the surface needs to re-adjust their weights and move some of the weight to their back and/or sides.
Pubcrawler
April 19th, 2010, 02:06 AM
With the exception of ten days in Coz a couple years ago, I have been a north Pacific dry suiter for 25 years. I dove a bag suit for years and ended up floating feet up once and fighting against it a few times, once dangerously on a wreck dive. Then I upgraded the dry suit and no troubles since. Most of the folks I dive with are mega-experienced and they never use a vest BC with their dry suits, they restrict air movement in the torso too much. Some have entirely abandoned the BC, the others use a backpack, but stay light on the integrated weights, relying on finely tuned tank weights and ankle weights instead. They are so in tune with their planned dive profile, temperature and ambient salinity that they use air for bouyancy control only minimally. Just my experience, but I think the only safeguard is a bunch of experience. I had all kinds of bouyancy issues in the Carribean, but have no problems in cold salt. She'll learn from this and have zero issues after more water time.
gcbryan
April 19th, 2010, 04:50 AM
Being properly weighted means that the suit won't contain enough air to make movement a problem.
People tend to blow them off as unnecessary, but I'm a big proponent of a good drysuit class for new drysuit owners. A little tuning and some information goes a really long way.
I also really like weight harnesses. They tend to retain large amounts of weight much better than any BC I've seen.
Terry
I agree regarding the class. The obvious solution if you've had the class is to bring your knees in and roll forward since it's something you practice in class in the pool and then in OW after you've put yourself in the inverted position and hit your DS inflator button.
I'd have to disagree with Lynne on this one. If you're inverted at 100 fsw the last thing you want to do it hit your BC inflator. You're unside down but not positively buoyant unless you add to the problem and now hit your BC inflator button.
NWGratefulDiver
April 19th, 2010, 07:31 AM
I called up a friend to see if he and his wife wanted to dive. He asked if had heard what happened recently at Edmonds Underwater Park. His wife was the one who was pulled from the water.
She was wearing an Aqualung Pearl I3 BC and a drysuit. From what I understand, they were looking at a sunken boat and they lost sight of each other. She had a little too much air in her drysuit and started to float up, feet first. She got tangled in kelp on the way up, and ended up on the surface with her feet in the air. There was some current that carried her toward the Ferry. She tried to dump her weights from an inverted position, but was unable to release the weights. She then decided to ditch the BC, and tried to remove it. She was able to get the BC off, but forgot to disconnect the drysuit hose. The BC went down around her head and arms, and stopped there, when it reached the point where the drysuit hose wouldn't let it go any further. Eventually she passed out from exhaustion from trying to free herself. I don't know if her reg was pulled out of her mouth when she tried to ditch the BC.
The crew on the ferry saw a diver in distress and launched a small boat to assist. When they pulled her from the water, she was not breathing and had no pulse. They performed CPR and she was revived. She was taken to the hospital and observed (I don't know for how long, but it was at least overnight).
The husband noticed she was gone, looked for her, couldn't find her, and surfaced to see if she had surfaced. The current was fairly strong, and he had to hold on to a buoy to avoid being carried into the ferry lane. The ferry crew picked him up as well.
They EMTs cut her drysuit off while they were trying to revive her.
This incident has a happy ending. Wife is fine now, and wants to continue diving. They've ordered her another drysuit. They are having a crotch strap installed on her BC. DAN is paying for the drysuit.
After listening to all that happened, I'll probably be using a weight belt or harness to take some of the weight out of my BC. I never liked the fact that me and my drysuit were very positively buoyant while my BC and tank were very negatively buoyant.
I'm curious to see how she'll be on their next dive. I'm amazed that she is still wanting to dive. I'm not sure how I would react if it happened to me.
Ron
:shakehead: ... yet one of example of why weight-integrated BCDs aren't the panacea for cold-water diving that so many folks on ScubaBoard seem to think they are.
This ain't the first time something like this has happened around here ... having all your weights in your BCD and all your flotation on your body is never a good idea ... especially not when you're wearing in excess of 30 lbs of weight in the darn thing ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
NWGratefulDiver
April 19th, 2010, 07:32 AM
Which is an excellent reason NOT to use a drysuit for buoyancy.
... not for a chronically-overweighted new diver. For the properly weighted, reasonably skilled diver, it's pretty much a wash ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
NWGratefulDiver
April 19th, 2010, 07:36 AM
I agree regarding the class. The obvious solution if you've had the class is to bring your knees in and roll forward since it's something you practice in class in the pool and then in OW after you've put yourself in the inverted position and hit your DS inflator button.
I'd have to disagree with Lynne on this one. If you're inverted at 100 fsw the last thing you want to do it hit your BC inflator. You're unside down but not positively buoyant unless you add to the problem and now hit your BC inflator button.
I think Lynne meant doing that to get your head outta the water once you're on the surface ... which would work ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
TSandM
April 19th, 2010, 10:33 AM
I'd have to disagree with Lynne on this one. If you're inverted at 100 fsw the last thing you want to do it hit your BC inflator. You're unside down but not positively buoyant unless you add to the problem and now hit your BC inflator button.
Oh, I didn't mean to do this AT DEPTH! I meant that, once you have arrived at the surface and find yourself hanging from your feet (which is apparently what happened to this lady) the quickest way to right yourself is to inflate your BC. Apparently much of her actual trouble occurred as a result of finding herself in this situation and concluding she had to shed her gear to solve it.
DivingFirefighter
April 20th, 2010, 05:09 AM
Well it certainly seams that this poor (but ultimately fortunate) lady, either didn't have proper training for dry suit diving or simply forgot it. Durring a dry suit class they teach you techniques to avoid this situation and if it does happen, how to correct it. I learned the hard way, being properly weighted in a dry suit is very very important. Durring my dry suit class I ended up in a feet up situation and my fins came off. Luckly the only thing hurt was my pride!
Using the dry suit for bouyency control is the recommended practice, because managing two seperate volumes of air (one in your BC and one in the dry suit) is difficult at best.
Seams like she lacked training in her dry suit - I have to say ending up feet up in my dry suit class was an excellent learning experience and I now I know how to manage it!
As with bad situation, its best to relax and then act. It certainly seams had she taken time to think about it, that she could have avoided becomming exhusted and saved her self the broken ribs.
reo
April 23rd, 2010, 10:14 PM
Does anyone know if she had any instruction in using the drysuit and troubleshooting as well as practice using the drysuit prior to that dive?
She did have drysuit training.
Ron
W8less
April 23rd, 2010, 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by knowone View Post
"A belt also slows air transfer within the suit which makes it more manageable. I think."
This can cut both ways restrictions ie; weight belts, shoulder straps, snugged up BC waist straps can cause air pockets in a suit that are hard to dump in a hurry.
I dove a vulcanized Viking bag suit for years and always had to be on guard to prevent a feet up blow out. A year ago I had to buy a back up suit as my trilam needed to go in for a new zipper. I didn't want to break the bank on another suit so I bought an Apollo, a neoprene suit. It is now my #1 suit.
THE POINT OF ALL OF THIS IS: and how it relates to the OP incident. If you are looking to buy a new suit. The Apollo suit comes with auto/adj. ankle dump valves. I don't even think about air migrating to legs anymore.
I have no commercial interest in Apollo, I just love the suit!!
DandyDon
April 24th, 2010, 04:22 AM
Once again, two all two familiar problems...
Buddy separation
Weight drop failure
Glad she's okay...
NWGratefulDiver
April 24th, 2010, 09:19 AM
Originally Posted by knowone View Post
"A belt also slows air transfer within the suit which makes it more manageable. I think."
This can cut both ways restrictions ie; weight belts, shoulder straps, snugged up BC waist straps can cause air pockets in a suit that are hard to dump in a hurry.
I dove a vulcanized Viking bag suit for years and always had to be on guard to prevent a feet up blow out. A year ago I had to buy a back up suit as my trilam needed to go in for a new zipper. I didn't want to break the bank on another suit so I bought an Apollo, a neoprene suit. It is now my #1 suit.
THE POINT OF ALL OF THIS IS: and how it relates to the OP incident. If you are looking to buy a new suit. The Apollo suit comes with auto/adj. ankle dump valves. I don't even think about air migrating to legs anymore.
I have no commercial interest in Apollo, I just love the suit!!
Those can be good or bad, depending on diver preferences. One problem ... at least a few years back when I looked into one ... is that they also can dump air when you don't want them to. This is particularly an issue if your diving style includes putting a bit of air in your feet intentionally for trim.
It's a good suit ... especially for the money ... but I have known people who pulled the springs and closed the valves off permanently.
Oh ... and getting back to the lady in question ... I have heard from other sources that she has replaced her suit and is back diving again. That's a rare happy ending to this story ...
