Yeeesh - way over tightened [Archive] - ScubaBoard - Scuba Diving Forum - Diving Social Network

View Full Version : Yeeesh - way over tightened


Sponsored Link
InTheDrink
March 31st, 2010, 04:50 PM
Hi,

A kindly guide decided to replace a frayed o-ring in my LP port last month. Without telling me.

I've just tried to remove the hose as I want to replace it. I cannot for love nor money get it off. It is way over tightened. I'm just wrecking the metal now trying to unscrew it and there'll be no threads for a spanner or wrench to grip on soon.

Am wondering what's the best approach here? WD40? Is that ok to use? Soapy water? Any other ways to get the damn thing unscrewed.

Thanks,
John

Bubbletrubble
March 31st, 2010, 05:07 PM
I'd try an extended soak in warm water. If it still doesn't come off, take it to a nearby LDS. You're replacing the hose, so worst case scenario is that they/you have to use vise grips on the hose nut and the hose is unusable after the "intervention."

FWIW, it would help to not be using an adjustable wrench. Crappy ones can open up a little when force is applied and lead to stripping the nut. A good-quality, appropriately sized non-adjustable wrench is a better option.

At a reg shop, they'll have a first stage handle that can be inserted into an open HP or LP port. The handle can then be set in a benchtop vise. This will give the tech more leverage. Resorting to this really shouldn't be necessary with a reg hose, though.

I haven't had much experience with stuck reg hoses. As you already know, all that's required is hand-tight installation of the hose into the LP port followed by a smidge of tool-tightening. Don't let the guy who overtightened the hose near your reg ever again. :D

Good luck.

InTheDrink
March 31st, 2010, 05:39 PM
I'd try an extended soak in warm water. If it still doesn't come off, take it to a nearby LDS. You're replacing the hose, so worst case scenario is that they/you have to use vise grips on the hose nut and the hose is unusable after the "intervention."

FWIW, it would help to not be using an adjustable wrench. Crappy ones can open up a little when force is applied and lead to stripping the nut. A good-quality, appropriately sized non-adjustable wrench is a better option.

At a reg shop, they'll have a first stage handle that can be inserted into an open HP or LP port. The handle can then be set in a benchtop vise. This will give the tech more leverage. Resorting to this really shouldn't be necessary with a reg hose, though.

I haven't had much experience with stuck reg hoses. As you already know, all that's required is hand-tight installation of the hose into the LP port followed by a smidge of tool-tightening. Don't let the guy who overtightened the hose near your reg ever again. :D

Good luck.

Cheers Bubble.

Yeah I won't let that person touch my gear again. I mean it is tight like you cannot believe.

I'll give it a soak in soapy water in case any salt crystals aren't helping the situation. Failing that bring it down the sole remaining LDS in my area. But I've already tried all the tools you've just advised against and I can verify that your advice is indeed correct. Nut is fairly well stripped. And I wouldn't risk using the hose again now after the dance I had with it in the bedroom earlier. Pretty hard to get leverage cos the first stage is hard to pin down stationary.

Will see how the soapy water goes. BTW - are WD40 or other oil based lubricants a no-no with first stages? Sorry for my ignorance.


Thanks,

J

willembad
March 31st, 2010, 05:54 PM
Mount the first stage on a tank to keep it stationary. Works just as well as any first stage holder tool.

Sent from my SPH-M900 using Tapatalk

Bubbletrubble
March 31st, 2010, 05:59 PM
I wouldn't get WD40 anywhere near my reg. It's a petroleum-based product that is flammable and really hard to remove. It will likely displace any o-ring lubricant that it comes into contact with. My concern would be damaging the rest of the reg, which appears to be functioning just fine.

I would prefer soaking the reg in warm water over soaking in soapy water. The detergent will not harm the chrome or plastic parts, but, theoretically, it can remove o-ring lubricant. Probably not the best idea unless you plan to overhaul the reg in the very near future.

If you're going to be working on regs, it can be very helpful to obtain a first stage handle. The one sold by Scubatools.com (http://www.scubatools.com/p-464-first-stage-handle-heavy-duty-brass.aspx) is a good quality one. It can be mounted in a benchtop vise or used with the included T-handle for hand repairs. Alternatively, you can screw an empty threaded CO2 cartridge (3/8" threads) into an open port. I highly recommend that you use a port adapter like the one on this page (7/16" to 3/8" adapter) (http://www.divegearexpress.com/regulators/adapters.shtml) in case the neck of the CO2 cartridge snaps off -- it simplifies removal of the broken part from the first stage.

The three methods of loosening stuck reg parts include: chemical, heat, and mechanical means. I recommend using a combination of heat and mechanical means. I'd be willing to bet that if you soaked the reg in warm water and then used an empty CO2 cartridge to give you a better grip (or mounted the first stage on a tank as willembad suggests), you could loosen the stuck hose nut with a non-adjustable wrench.

InTheDrink
March 31st, 2010, 06:03 PM
Mount the first stage on a tank to keep it stationary. Works just as well as any first stage holder tool.

Sent from my SPH-M900 using Tapatalk

Can you lend me a tank then please ;)

I'm still building up my kit: wetsuit and tank are next targets.

J

Web Monkey
March 31st, 2010, 06:04 PM
Hi,

A kindly guide decided to replace a frayed o-ring in my LP port last month. Without telling me.

I've just tried to remove the hose as I want to replace it. I cannot for love nor money get it off. It is way over tightened. I'm just wrecking the metal now trying to unscrew it and there'll be no threads for a spanner or wrench to grip on soon.

Am wondering what's the best approach here? WD40? Is that ok to use? Soapy water? Any other ways to get the damn thing unscrewed.

Thanks,
John

It's unlikely that over-tightening is causing the problem. It's much more likely that it's corroded or has salt (or something else) in the threads.

A nice long soak in warm water might help, but it's almost certain that more force isn't the answer.

Terry

luckydays
March 31st, 2010, 06:14 PM
are you turning it the right way? :D

Righty - tighty, lefty - loosey

InTheDrink
March 31st, 2010, 06:19 PM
are you turning it the right way? :D

Righty - tighty, lefty - loosey

Yeah, I triple checked that one and took of some of the other hoses just to be COMPLETELY sure. But the thought did cross my mind!!! :D

J

InTheDrink
March 31st, 2010, 06:24 PM
It's unlikely that over-tightening is causing the problem. It's much more likely that it's corroded or has salt (or something else) in the threads.

A nice long soak in warm water might help, but it's almost certain that more force isn't the answer.

Terry

Ok thanks. One of the buttons on my stinger was stuck for a year or so until I started showering with it and it appears the shampoo dissolved whatever it was that was jamming it (salt I imagine). I'll try the same here but given that none of the other nuts are stuck and I know this one was removed a month ago, and the kit was really well washed by me afterwards, I'm struggling to see how it isn't over tightening. But whatever it is, it just is not budging. I actually think it was probably one of the boat hands rather than the guide that swapped it round. If they tighten nuts any way similar to how they drive the boats then this outcome is entirely predictable.

Anyhow, will get it sorted. And will definitely keep the WD40 for my bike chain and unloosening other joins that I'm unlikely to be breathing from anytime soon :D

Cheers,
J

Bubbletrubble
March 31st, 2010, 06:30 PM
Anyhow, will get it sorted. And will definitely keep the WD40 for my bike chain and unloosening other joins that I'm unlikely to be breathing from anytime soon :D

Um. You may want to reconsider using WD40 on your bike chain. Read this webpage (http://bicycletutor.com/no-wd40-bike-chain/). The guy looks like he knows what he's talking about. :dontknow:

Good luck with the reg. You never mentioned why you wanted to change out the hose. Another option is just to use the reg as-is until it needs to be overhauled. Then, the reg tech would have to worry about how to remove the darn hose. ;) Have him install the new one.

InTheDrink
March 31st, 2010, 06:43 PM
Um. You may want to reconsider using WD40 on your bike chain. Read this webpage (http://bicycletutor.com/no-wd40-bike-chain/). The guy looks like he knows what he's talking about. :dontknow:

Good luck with the reg. You never mentioned why you wanted to change out the hose. Another option is just to use the reg as-is until it needs to be overhauled. Then, the reg tech would have to worry about how to remove the darn hose. ;)

Jeez, aren't you the proper merchant of doom? I'm gonna start getting nervous about posting anything now in case you have a link that shows how it's going to kill me or break my kit. Thankfully I don't use my splits anymore so I should be insulated from that particular hazard :D

But thanks for the top tips!! Next time I'm looking to fix a puncture I'll definitely PM you :D

I'm changing the hose cos it's too long and annoying. I just got my first BP/W today (read this locked thread here if you're an insomniac http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/buoyancy-compensators-bcs-weight-systems/324907-ditching-poodle-jacket.html) after a 32 day wait courtesy of our (UK) postal service. Anyhow, the hose that comes with that fits wel [in terms of length], the old one doesn't. So I wanted to change it. I've just stuck it in a different lp port for the moment and will get the other one removed either by soap and myself or increasingly likely by someone who knows what they're doing. Regs are pretty new (12 months) so not planning to get them serviced unless I believe they need to be.

J

Bubbletrubble
March 31st, 2010, 07:11 PM
Jeez, aren't you the proper merchant of doom? I'm gonna start getting nervous about posting anything now in case you have a link that shows how it's going to kill me or break my kit. Thankfully I don't use my splits anymore so I should be insulated from that particular hazard :D
Well, if stating that WD40 should not be used on scuba regulators makes me a "merchant of doom," I'll accept that title with a smile. :D


But thanks for the top tips!! Next time I'm looking to fix a puncture I'll definitely PM you :D

Sadly I don't know much about punctures. I bet that your big can of WD40 probably won't help, though. :crafty:

captain
March 31st, 2010, 07:28 PM
Get a 6 point tubing wrench to avoid tearing up the the hose fitting flats. I am afraid force and possibly ruined hose or worse may be the end result.
If air isn't leaking out then no type of liquid such as soapy water is going type get into the treads and it is unusual to find corrosion in the threads unless water got into the regulator through the filter.

Aigtbootbp
March 31st, 2010, 08:06 PM
Wow, the old WD40 debate. If you really want to get into that one just hit any of the motorcycle enthusiast sites and ask about it as chain lube.
Anyway, as a 20yr mechanic I would suggest heating the reg up in some hot water then using a thick piece of leather carefully clamp the reg in a vise (lightly!!!) the using a line wrench (they know what they are at any parts store) try backing it out. If that fails then it is time for the vise grips or pipe wrench. You will destroy the fitting but you should be able to get it out. If somehow you break it off in there then try an easy-out (better yet, get someone with experience using them) and back it out.
Good luck!

scubafanatic
March 31st, 2010, 08:22 PM
...based on your past 'luck' in the shower, have you tried showering with the reg ?

InTheDrink
March 31st, 2010, 08:23 PM
Wow, the old WD40 debate. If you really want to get into that one just hit any of the motorcycle enthusiast sites and ask about it as chain lube.
Anyway, as a 20yr mechanic I would suggest heating the reg up in some hot water then using a thick piece of leather carefully clamp the reg in a vise (lightly!!!) the using a line wrench (they know what they are at any parts store) try backing it out. If that fails then it is time for the vise grips or pipe wrench. You will destroy the fitting but you should be able to get it out. If somehow you break it off in there then try an easy-out (better yet, get someone with experience using them) and back it out.
Good luck!

Until this evening I thought WD40 was possibly the planet's salvation and that if only they had it in the middle east then we'd get some results. Clearly the situation is more complex than this and they need soap and water too. And possible some leather although I struggle with them needing more heat.

I think I've damaged the host connection enough now and after one last try after soaking I'm gonna take it to people with the correct equipment to try to fix it.

Cheers,
John

awap
March 31st, 2010, 08:37 PM
Wow, the old WD40 debate. If you really want to get into that one just hit any of the motorcycle enthusiast sites and ask about it as chain lube.
Anyway, as a 20yr mechanic I would suggest heating the reg up in some hot water then using a thick piece of leather carefully clamp the reg in a vise (lightly!!!) the using a line wrench (they know what they are at any parts store) try backing it out. If that fails then it is time for the vise grips or pipe wrench. You will destroy the fitting but you should be able to get it out. If somehow you break it off in there then try an easy-out (better yet, get someone with experience using them) and back it out.
Good luck!

The only thing I would add is, if the hose is toast then cut if off to get it out of the way. Then, after everything is hot, dip just the hose end into ice-water and then giove it a shot. I would try to mount the reg in a vise with the hose end pointing downward so I could apply cold to just the hose end. I would then use an ice cube rather than ice water. And , I would probably go right to strong vise grips on the hose end and use a rubber mallet to tap the vise grips if hand pressure did not do the job. Don't use excessive force with the mallet - tap rather than slam. And if it does not work right away, repeat the hot and cold treatments an try again. Oh, and with the fitting upside down, check twice on the lefty loosey. I always had to pause a moment to think about that whenever I was laying under a car.

Cave Diver
March 31st, 2010, 08:53 PM
I'll try the same here but given that none of the other nuts are stuck and I know this one was removed a month ago, and the kit was really well washed by me afterwards, I'm struggling to see how it isn't over tightening. But whatever it is, it just is not budging. I actually think it was probably one of the boat hands rather than the guide that swapped it round. If they tighten nuts any way similar to how they drive the boats then this outcome is entirely predictable.


Hopefully they didn't cross thread it.

Puffer Fish
March 31st, 2010, 09:30 PM
Cheers Bubble.

Yeah I won't let that person touch my gear again. I mean it is tight like you cannot believe.

I'll give it a soak in soapy water in case any salt crystals aren't helping the situation. Failing that bring it down the sole remaining LDS in my area. But I've already tried all the tools you've just advised against and I can verify that your advice is indeed correct. Nut is fairly well stripped. And I wouldn't risk using the hose again now after the dance I had with it in the bedroom earlier. Pretty hard to get leverage cos the first stage is hard to pin down stationary.

Will see how the soapy water goes. BTW - are WD40 or other oil based lubricants a no-no with first stages? Sorry for my ignorance.


Thanks,

J

Might want to stay away from the WD40... not good stuff around things you plan to breath from.

Hatul
March 31st, 2010, 10:43 PM
This may be from a misconception that some people have about O ring fittings. The tightness does nothing to seal the O ring, it's just to keep it from coming undone, and it does not take much torque to do that.

Adam

scubafanatic
March 31st, 2010, 10:53 PM
Hopefully they didn't cross thread it.

keep hopin'...'cause dollars to donuts that's the problem !

LeadTurn_SD
April 1st, 2010, 03:22 AM
.....I think I've damaged the host connection enough now and after one last try after soaking I'm gonna take it to people with the correct equipment to try to fix it.

Cheers,
John

John,

I'm late to the party, but it sounds like you will need to take it to the dive shop. Once you've rounded the nut, you'll need the proper tools to remove it (as already suggested, probably a very good pair of vice grip pliers, a 1st stage handle, a table vice, a rubber mallet, and a prayer ;) ).

Once the dive shop gets it removed, invest in a good quality wrench that fits the fitting (not an adjustable wrench or pliers!!).

If you do not have a vice, a trick I sometimes employ (carefully!!!) with the correct sized wrench is to place the 1st stage on a carpeted floor, positioning the 1st stage, 1st stage handle and wrench approriately so that I can carefully stand on the wrench to break loose the overtightened part.... sounds gruesome, but it actually works well (the key is to be careful, and have the bits and pieces positioned properly). But if the nut is rounded at all this will make it worse, so it is of no use in your situation.

A first stage handle looks like this:

First Stage Handle, Heavy Duty, Brass (http://www.scubatools.com/p-464-first-stage-handle-heavy-duty-brass.aspx)

But my guess is that since you'll be installing your own hoses, you'll never have an overtightened fitting again ;)

Good luck and Best Wishes.

CaveMD
April 1st, 2010, 05:41 AM
sounds like the guy that put your hose on was the same kind of special ed short bus riding individual that I used to deal with in car racing. Some of these aforementioned individuals thought it was ok to tighten aluminum -AN fittings and -AN o-ringed fittings for fuel lines like they were pipe threaded steel fittings and then want to return them to me as defective when I look at them and they have every corner rounded off and the mating surfaces totally galled to hell.

best thing you can do is wrap it in a towel and put it in a vice long ways with the hose pointing up and try a properly fitting flare or box-end wrench on it if there is enough of the end nut left. If not then do the above except you will need a pair of vice grips with good teeth. Sink them down into it and turn. If they slide off when you turn then you didn't clamp them down hard enough. You will probably have to throw this hose away afterwards(most likely cheaper to buy a new hose then to have a new end crimped on it unless you have a hose fitting place near you...there are a few NAPA's that still do it if you're in a rural area otherwise you could check yellow pages for any tractor supply places that fit pressure hose)


a "1st stage holder" is just a gimick tool for people that need a special tool to bridge the gap in their creativity to make what they currently have work :blessing:

CaveMD
April 1st, 2010, 05:47 AM
Once the dive shop gets it removed, invest in a good quality wrench that fits the fitting (not an adjustable wrench or pliers!!).


Can I get an Amen! LOL


for whatever reason the use of adjustable wrenches permeates to all levels.

I have seen them every where from dealings in automotive work, bikes, scuba equipment, boats, airplanes, and I have even seen them in use in the operating room by some surgeons :shocked2:

keyshunter
April 1st, 2010, 06:26 AM
Can I get an Amen! LOL


for whatever reason the use of adjustable wrenches permeates to all levels.

I have seen them every where from dealings in automotive work, bikes, scuba equipment, boats, airplanes, and I have even seen them in use in the operating room by some surgeons :shocked2:

Easy Doc,
Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Over the years, I have worked on many things mechanical--from commercial sewing machines to farm tractors. Consequently I have straight and socket wrenches from 1/8" to 2.5" and corresponding metrics. In addition, I have QUALITY adjustables from 4" to 16".

While I use straight wrenches on regs at home, I carry 2 adjustables in my travel kit. If someone manages to round out a fitting on a reg with a QUALITY adjustable wrench it is nothing more than operator error.

burna
April 1st, 2010, 07:16 AM
Hi,

A kindly guide decided to replace a frayed o-ring in my LP port last month. Without telling me.

I've just tried to remove the hose as I want to replace it. I cannot for love nor money get it off. It is way over tightened. I'm just wrecking the metal now trying to unscrew it and there'll be no threads for a spanner or wrench to grip on soon.

Am wondering what's the best approach here? WD40? Is that ok to use? Soapy water? Any other ways to get the damn thing unscrewed.

Thanks,
John

John,

First of all, as advised, don't put WD-40 anywhere near your regs for 2 reasons.
1. It is a light oil so will most likely swell all of the o-rings, seals, diaphragms and any other rubbery type component it comes into contact with.
And, 2. WD-40 is a lubricant, it will help reduce friction but wont help loosen something that is over tightened, seized or cross threaded.

If this 'kindly guide' changed the o-ring only a month ago then the chances of it being seized up with salt is highly unlikely, not in that time frame. So, IMO, soaking it wont help either.

Given that your 1st stage housing is chrome plated brass and the hose connection is steel then I can't imagine how someone could possibly tighten it so much without stripping the thread. If it is seriously that tight I'd be worried it is cross threaded as CD suggests in which case I'd assume it is stuffed, but in any case it needs to come out now.

Put 1st stage in the vice (with soft jaws) and get onto hose nut with a good set of vice grips. If you don't have vice grips, just cut the hose off and put the nut directly in the vice. You should be able to loosen it just by turning the 1st stage by hand.

Hope this helps, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!!

CaveMD
April 1st, 2010, 09:51 AM
Easy Doc,
Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Over the years, I have worked on many things mechanical--from commercial sewing machines to farm tractors. Consequently I have straight and socket wrenches from 1/8" to 2.5" and corresponding metrics. In addition, I have QUALITY adjustables from 4" to 16".

While I use straight wrenches on regs at home, I carry 2 adjustables in my travel kit. If someone manages to round out a fitting on a reg with a QUALITY adjustable wrench it is nothing more than operator error.

Don't get me wrong, I keep two adjustables and a fold out metric/SAE hex key in my dive bag. They work just fine so long as you are not trying to put a lot of force on them(I'm sure we both know thats where even the higher quality ones begin to become problematic...albeit less so than with the $.99 special at the Autozone check out counter haha).

Time and a place for everything, and adjustables just aren't appropriate for anything involving any where near the amount of force you would normally use with a box end wrench.

CaveMD
April 1st, 2010, 09:58 AM
John,

If you don't have vice grips, just cut the hose off and put the nut directly in the vice. You should be able to loosen it just by turning the 1st stage by hand.


If it gets to this stage that you have to cut the hose, you can always do what I used to have to do with people that lost the lug keys to their locking lug nuts

Get a socket that is just a hair too small to fit, tap it down onto the hose nut and then back it off

In any event, if it's cross threaded I don't know if I would continue using it. While the O-ring actually is responsible for the seal and the threads are only there to keep the o-ring trapped, it seems like a bad choice to me. If I were you at a minimum I would put a plug into that one with red loctite very sparingly around the crown of the plug and never use that port again.

keyshunter
April 1st, 2010, 11:06 AM
In any event, if it's cross threaded I don't know if I would continue using it. While the O-ring actually is responsible for the seal and the threads are only there to keep the o-ring trapped, it seems like a bad choice to me. If I were you at a minimum I would put a plug into that one with red loctite very sparingly around the crown of the plug and never use that port again.

Agreed. If he gets it out and finds that it is indeed crossthreaded he might try carefully chasing the original threads with a tap. Then check it carefully under magnification. Being brass, there might not be sufficient threads remaining to reliably hold a plug, but if there are, at least a plug will go in straight. If I didn't need that port, I would plug it and forget it. If I needed that port, I would replace the body.

LeadTurn_SD
April 1st, 2010, 03:49 PM
...a "1st stage holder" is just a gimick tool for people that need a special tool to bridge the gap in their creativity to make what they currently have work :blessing:

Not a necessity, but they make the job easier! :blinking: The use of a 1st stage handle often allows me to avoid the use of a vice... I can often take the 1st stage completely apart "by hand", less chance of scratching the body that way.

I've been know to use whatever is at hand... eraser end of a pencil and the body of a cheap ball point pen are two of my favorites when the "special" factory tools needed for reassembling 1st and 2nd stages are not available... but I've encountered 1st stage diaphragm retainer nuts so overtightened that the 1st stage spun in the soft jawed vice (but I was using a 2' extension on the pin spanner....and a deadblow hammer.... I won in the end :D).

Best wishes.

burna
April 1st, 2010, 07:09 PM
If it gets to this stage that you have to cut the hose, you can always do what I used to have to do with people that lost the lug keys to their locking lug nuts

Get a socket that is just a hair too small to fit, tap it down onto the hose nut and then back it off

In any event, if it's cross threaded I don't know if I would continue using it. While the O-ring actually is responsible for the seal and the threads are only there to keep the o-ring trapped, it seems like a bad choice to me. If I were you at a minimum I would put a plug into that one with red loctite very sparingly around the crown of the plug and never use that port again.

Yeah, that's another possibility, and prob'ly a good solution if it is stripped providing he has spare ports.

Don't know if I would use loctite tho', especially the red stuff, I'm not sure how o-rings would re-act to that as it can be a bit fumey. But what else to use...? :dontknow: Maybe a little dollop of sikaflex or something, or there might be another loctite product more friendly to o-rings.

Hopefully it doesn't come to that for IntheDrink.

InTheDrink
April 1st, 2010, 07:19 PM
If it gets to this stage that you have to cut the hose, you can always do what I used to have to do with people that lost the lug keys to their locking lug nuts

Get a socket that is just a hair too small to fit, tap it down onto the hose nut and then back it off

In any event, if it's cross threaded I don't know if I would continue using it. While the O-ring actually is responsible for the seal and the threads are only there to keep the o-ring trapped, it seems like a bad choice to me. If I were you at a minimum I would put a plug into that one with red loctite very sparingly around the crown of the plug and never use that port again.

Cheers BoneDoc. I don't need that port as it happens. Got a couple spare so I've no problem plugging and retiring if that's what's called for. If it is cross threaded - and this hadn't occurred to me, but I guess incompetence knows no bounds - then I'd not want to use it again anyhow so long as I can board it up.

I'll post back once I've figured it out.

Re heat and cold - I'm guessing we want to keep hose cold and first stage hot? That right?

J

1fast05
April 1st, 2010, 08:50 PM
Correct on the hose cold and the first stage hot.

captain
April 2nd, 2010, 12:11 AM
A little JB Weld epoxy on the threads and you won't even need the O ring.

LeadTurn_SD
April 2nd, 2010, 03:24 AM
A little JB Weld epoxy on the threads and you won't even need the O ring.

:thumb:

I love that stuff. My "go to" for assorted marine repairs.... leaky weld on an aluminum fuel tank, cracked out board engine cover; cracked outboard motor skeg (well, THAT crack eventually traveled, but it bought me some time) :D

Best wishes.

burna
April 2nd, 2010, 03:35 AM
:thumb:

cracked outboard motor skeg (well, THAT crack eventually traveled, but it bought me some time) :D

Best wishes.

Did you drill the end of the crack first?

scubafanatic
April 2nd, 2010, 08:56 AM
Cheers BoneDoc. I don't need that port as it happens. Got a couple spare so I've no problem plugging and retiring if that's what's called for. If it is cross threaded - and this hadn't occurred to me, but I guess incompetence knows no bounds - then I'd not want to use it again anyhow so long as I can board it up.

I'll post back once I've figured it out.

Re heat and cold - I'm guessing we want to keep hose cold and first stage hot? That right?

J

...about the 'board it up' idea......sounds a little iffy to me. Goodness knows the level of damage of those soft brass 1st-stage LP port threads, which are responsible for 'containing' 3000 + psi of pressure, if any metal shears under that pressure, I wouldn't want to be in the way of that high-velocity port plug (do you really want to risk that killer slug whacking the personal injury lawyer dive bud sitting next to you on the dive boat?) And of course, if that LP port plug gave way underwater, it will drain your tank in about a minute, which could really ruin your day!

I don't know anything about 'JB weld' (other than having heard of it), but given the very tight clearances inside a 1st-stage port, there's really no room to apply any significant layer of it, it would be squeezed out......moreover, I have no idea if 'JB weld' is safe when exposed to high concentrations of oxygen under extreme pressure (NITROX)....would 'JB weld' hold up or generate any toxic offgassing ?

Boiler_81
April 2nd, 2010, 09:02 AM
The original post said this was on a LP port.


...about the 'board it up' idea......sounds a little iffy to me. Goodness knows the level of damage of those soft brass 1st-stage LP port threads, which are responsible for 'containing' 3000 + psi of pressure, if any metal shears under that pressure, I wouldn't want to be in the way of that high-velocity port plug (do you really want to risk that killer slug whacking the personal injury lawyer dive bud sitting next to you on the dive boat?) And of course, if that LP port plug gave way underwater, it will drain your tank in about a minute, which could really ruin your day!

I don't know anything about 'JB weld' (other than having heard of it), but given the very tight clearances inside a 1st-stage port, there's really no room to apply any significant layer of it, it would be squeezed out......moreover, I have no idea if 'JB weld' is safe when exposed to high concentrations of oxygen under extreme pressure (NITROX)....would 'JB weld' hold up or generate any toxic offgassing ?

scubafanatic
April 2nd, 2010, 09:08 AM
The original post said this was on a LP port.

OK, point taken, but still it's significant pressure, there's very little 'room' to apply JB weld regardless, the threads are likely severely damaged/weakened with no way to assess the extent of the damage or calculate how much pressure they can now withstand, and if a LP port blows underwater, it will still drain the tank in about a minute, give or take.

awap
April 2nd, 2010, 10:08 AM
The hot and cold treatment is to allow expansion and contraction to maximize the gap between the two stuck components. It may take some time but does tend to work well in some cases. Unfortunately, in this case where you may be dealing with thread damage and the results of that damage binding (and moving) in the threads, it could only be marginally effective. It is brass so you will eventually overpower the weak point and it will let go.

As far as using JB weld to seal that port, it is clearly a shade tree mechanic's solution that I would probably use on one of my regs if I needed to. Make sure there are at least enough threads left to let it get a good grip. If it does fail, there will be a leak, probably pretty small, that can be dealt with.

But the right way would be to replace the damaged component. If it is an LP port in a BP swivel (turret) it would probably be cost effective. If the port in in the body, It would probably be cheaper to replace the entire stage and bank the good parts.

halocline
April 2nd, 2010, 10:18 AM
I kind of doubt that it's cross-threaded; I have a feeling that a cross threaded hose fitting would cause the o-ring to extrude.

If it were my reg, I'd cut the hose, use a file to try to clean up the edges on the stripped part of the fitting, and try a really tight fitting box end; you'll have to tap it on with a hammer and a length of pipe that fits over the hose and pushes on the box end wrench. If that doesn't work it's probably time for a new reg. What kind is it anyways? After all this discussion, maybe it will turn out to be an old Dacor...

LeadTurn_SD
April 2nd, 2010, 02:38 PM
Did you drill the end of the crack first?

No, sadly I couldn't. It was only intended as a temporary "fix" until I could to a proper repair.

Sorry about the off-topic :dork2:

Hope John has the stuck hose sorted out by now.

Best wishes.

InTheDrink
April 2nd, 2010, 07:59 PM
I kind of doubt that it's cross-threaded; I have a feeling that a cross threaded hose fitting would cause the o-ring to extrude.

If it were my reg, I'd cut the hose, use a file to try to clean up the edges on the stripped part of the fitting, and try a really tight fitting box end; you'll have to tap it on with a hammer and a length of pipe that fits over the hose and pushes on the box end wrench. If that doesn't work it's probably time for a new reg. What kind is it anyways? After all this discussion, maybe it will turn out to be an old Dacor...

Regs are 12mnth old AL Legend Supreme LX ACD. So not that cheap to replace.

My spider sense tells me it's not crossed threaded too for the reason you suggest above - I can't see how you'd not get a leak if you cross threaded which would leave the o-ring unsnug.

The boys that (I think) did it were really strong and into showing masculine strength. I'm guessing it's just over tightened and that my equipment here isn't good enough to unloosen without doing too much damage or without making it even more difficult to loosen with proper kit. So I've stopped trying and will bring it down the shop next week.

But I sure as hell hope there's no damage on the first stage. The hose I've already consigned to the dustbin, no worries there, but I'll be pissed if my reg is hurt.

Thanks again for your input!

J

CaveMD
April 2nd, 2010, 08:51 PM
Not a necessity, but they make the job easier! :blinking: The use of a 1st stage handle often allows me to avoid the use of a vice... I can often take the 1st stage completely apart "by hand", less chance of scratching the body that way.

I've been know to use whatever is at hand... eraser end of a pencil and the body of a cheap ball point pen are two of my favorites when the "special" factory tools needed for reassembling 1st and 2nd stages are not available... but I've encountered 1st stage diaphragm retainer nuts so overtightened that the 1st stage spun in the soft jawed vice (but I was using a 2' extension on the pin spanner....and a deadblow hammer.... I won in the end :D).

Best wishes.
It was just a harmless jab :P


...If the 1st stage spun in the vice I would argue that you're doing it wrong though. Put the 1st stage in long ways with whatever you need access to pointing up and it wont budge even if barely tightened down :).

LeadTurn_SD
April 2nd, 2010, 09:33 PM
It was just a harmless jab :P


...If the 1st stage spun in the vice I would argue that you're doing it wrong though. Put the 1st stage in long ways with whatever you need access to pointing up and it wont budge even if barely tightened down :).

Hi Doc,

I'd agree for 90% of cases, but not all.... in the case I was talking about, the 1st stage was in the vice as you describe, but the diaphragm retaining nut is on the end of the stage. This creates a big lever arm that will overpower the soft vice jaws if you are using a long wrench. The previous owner or tech had severely overtightened the diaphragm retaining nut.... I'm a big guy (6'5, 260 lbs) and even using an extension on the pin spanner wrench could not budge it.... thus the final resort was the deadblow hammer.... the nut freed and stage spun at the same instant... any more force and I was afraid of "breaking" either the wrench, stage body or vice.

Moral: Do not overtighten... ;)

But yeah, in the vast majority of cases what you describe would work fine I think.

Best wishes

captain
April 3rd, 2010, 02:07 AM
A gorilla and a wrench is a bad combination.

Troutmaster
April 3rd, 2010, 06:32 AM
Inthedrink,

You have some seriously bad luck in the gear department recently, I hope to heck you don't have to order any replacement parts internationally for this project or you may miss the whole dive season!

If you have already trashed the hose cut it off at the fitting, get a deep well six point socket and put that over the fitting. If you have already rounded the corners of the fitting, just tap the socket on, then use a rachet or better yet a breaker bar. Use a vise to carefully clamp the reg while you do so. If you don't have these kind of tools, you may have to take it to the shop.

A note on JB weld, first it is a great product. Second, there is an even more amazing variation on it. "Plumers Epoxy" is just like JB weld but can be put onto a WET surface and will cure UNDER WATER. I used some for a swimming pool repair and it is fantastic. It is great for emergency boat repairs below the waterline. You can get it at most home centers in the plumbing isle.

Best of luck.

Troutmaster
April 3rd, 2010, 06:35 AM
too bad a first stage has stuff in it that precludes the use of the "hot wrench" torch to get the fitting off, that would be so simple.

captain
April 3rd, 2010, 12:31 PM
too bad a first stage has stuff in it that precludes the use of the "hot wrench" torch to get the fitting off, that would be so simple.

I have used the hot wrench many times on valves. If done right it usually doesn't damage anything. I don't recall ever doing it on a regulator.

InTheDrink
April 11th, 2010, 10:38 AM
Hi,

So it was a simple case of over tightening and my not having decent wrenches. I went and bought some decent quality wrenches and with the steadying hand of a friend was able to exert enough leverage to get the hose off. No cross threading thank god. I've now plugged that one up anyhow (with the original cap, not anything drastic :D) and am using an alternative port for my new LP hose. So panic over.

Troutmaster, yeah, I've been visited by the gear bogeyman recently. But I've learned some valuable lessons and am now lining all entrances to the house with garlic ;) And you need to remember that I'm learning diving in many ways in a physical vacuum - pretty much all input I am getting from diving is by diving and from on here. I don't know anyone local well enough to ask them stupid questions :D This is the true value of this board :D

Cheers chaps,

J

LeadTurn_SD
April 12th, 2010, 03:42 PM
:thumb: :thumb:

Great news InTheDrink, glad you got it fixed, and the best was that in the end you sorted it out yourself.

Best wishes.

Bubbletrubble
April 12th, 2010, 04:31 PM
So it was a simple case of over tightening and my not having decent wrenches. I went and bought some decent quality wrenches and with the steadying hand of a friend was able to exert enough leverage to get the hose off. No cross threading thank god. I've now plugged that one up anyhow (with the original cap, not anything drastic :D) and am using an alternative port for my new LP hose. So panic over.
That's very good news! I'm very glad you didn't have to deal with any cross-threading issues.

Did you plug up the port in question for any reason in particular? Following a careful inspection, I see no reason not to use that port again. Or am I missing something here?

Have fun diving...

InTheDrink
April 12th, 2010, 06:43 PM
That's very good news! I'm very glad you didn't have to deal with any cross-threading issues.

Did you plug up the port in question for any reason in particular? Following a careful inspection, I see no reason not to use that port again. Or am I missing something here?

Have fun diving...

Sorry terminology - I just put the rivet (oops, terminology again) back in the port and decided to give it a rest. If I get some other device that wants to use it that'll be fine. Although I can't think of why I'd need anything else on an LP port - which makes me want to ask the question but courtesy prevents me.

And yes it is good news no problems with cross threading. And as LeadTurn says, good I dealt with it myself. In tandem with trying to rig my first BP/W this is all a lot of fun, especially when I've no-one physical to show me. It makes it all stick in the head a lot better when you're quasi working it out for yourself. With a little help from your (SB) friends, as McCartney and Lennon once said.

Dealing with kit yourself I think does build confidence. The 'physical' people that I meet around here always seem to want to make it a hierarchy/magister/pedagogue issue asserting their own knowledge and position which doesn't really make me that keen to engage (last example from yesterday was a chap loudly saying 'nothing wrong with your kit, it's your technique'. All I asked him was whether my cam bands were routed right and they were, not that that's the point).

Anyhow, thanks for your help. I'll likely post more questions that probably don't deserve answers from people so knowledgeable but it says a lot about the kind of people that you are that you're willing to lend a hand anyway.

Cheers,
John

Bubbletrubble
April 12th, 2010, 06:48 PM
Sorry terminology - I just put the rivet (oops, terminology again) back in the port and decided to give it a rest. If I get some other device that wants to use it that'll be fine. Although I can't think of why I'd need anything else on an LP port - which makes me want to ask the question but courtesy prevents me.

Well, I've got a total of 4 LP ports on my first stage. Two LP ports are used for second stages (primary, backup). One LP port is used for the BCD inflater hose. The last LP port is used for the drysuit inflater hose.

If you don't have a drysuit yet, I can understand why you wouldn't feel the need to use that last LP port. :)

InTheDrink
April 12th, 2010, 06:53 PM
Well, I've got a total of 4 LP ports on my first stage. Two LP ports are used for second stages (primary, backup). One LP port is used for the BCD inflater hose. The last LP port is used for the drysuit inflater hose.

If you don't have a drysuit yet, I can understand why you wouldn't feel the need to use that last LP port. :)

Aha! Bingo!

I guess I would have found out this Sunday anyway then! Doing drysuit and rescue course at same time. I'm guessing I'll be the victim (or with some luck, the patient :D)

Thanks for the insight - I'll feel a little more clued in come Sunday and I like to be on top of what I'm doing.

Cheers!

J

p.s. and now for bed - up at 4.30am for flight to Berlin for meeting then meeting with (wannabee) rock-star brother on tour.

tfsails
April 12th, 2010, 11:50 PM
Seems to me the moral of this saga is that cheap tools are a false economy. I'm glad the episode turned out as well as it did. Hoses need to be tightened only a little past snug.

Cave Diver
April 12th, 2010, 11:59 PM
Although I can't think of why I'd need anything else on an LP port - which makes me want to ask the question but courtesy prevents me.


In answer to the perceived question that you didn't ask, another reason for the extra ports is that people like to route hoses differently.

keyshunter
April 13th, 2010, 05:00 AM
Isn't it amazing what knowledge and proper tools can accomplish.

InTheDrink
April 13th, 2010, 01:07 PM
Isn't it amazing what knowledge and proper tools can accomplish.

Isn't it just. And the joy is that the law of diminishing returns is unlikely to apply to me for a very long time when it comes to diving. There is SOOOOOO much to learn.

And I'm enjoying the tinkering and as it's diving kit and therefore cannot set precedent for household DIY, I'm happy to fully engage :D (my father, an amateur artist/painter uses the same argument about painting the house, claiming allergy to emulsion: you gotta love the man)

J

InTheDrink
April 13th, 2010, 01:12 PM
In answer to the perceived question that you didn't ask, another reason for the extra ports is that people like to route hoses differently.

Why is it simple things are so obscured from view until some points out the blindingly obvious? :D

Of course, makes sense. So dry suit, differing routing. Any other reasons? I'm happy with two but if there's a three in the house... :D

J

burna
April 13th, 2010, 03:12 PM
Any other reasons? I'm happy with two but if there's a three in the house... :D

J


In case one gets stripped! :D

Cave Diver
April 13th, 2010, 03:18 PM
Why is it simple things are so obscured from view until some points out the blindingly obvious? :D


You don't know what you don't know until you know it. :)

InTheDrink
April 13th, 2010, 09:37 PM
You don't know what you don't know until you know it. :)

Sister, 'aint that the truth!! ;)

J

couv
April 15th, 2010, 02:27 PM
Sorry I got here so late, but I've been away for a while. I'm glad to hear you got the hose off alright, but for next time, and for others, the most assured way to remove a hose that you will be throwing away is to cut off the hose and put the HOSE FITTING into the vice. Remove the regulator from the hose by turning it ccw.

c

Sponsored Link

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1