C-Cards/ Qualifications or common sense?

medical1 · Aug 1, 2003

:upset: There is NO Federal agency governing this sport. No State or Federal agency issues a c-card (US Navy excluded

;-0 It is governed by a group of FOR profit agencies (Not including DAN & the YMCA) that are dictating a price for the supposed qualifications as long as it's profitable. How many students shouldn't even be near the water that have Advanced Open Water certification?

Does spending money or having a LOT of cards necessarily make you a safer diver? Ive seen instructors dive off the boat only to ask a student to turn on there air. What happened to checking all the equipment before entering the water?

:approve: I may be a new diver, but I am not about to exceed my OWN personal limits & skills. Knowledge and not exceeding your skill level is more important than another endorsement on my c-card. Whats next? C-Cards that expire every 5 years and then you have to take another course? Thank god I have my own boat & never push my luck. You can ALWAYS call off a dive if it exceeds your skill level or comfort. Does SSI, PADI or the rest of the agencies have more of a vested interest in keeping you alive then you do?

Thanks for letting me vent - I feel better!
NEVER EVER STOP LEARNING OR IMPROVING YOUR SKILLS!

Longhorn · Aug 1, 2003

You own your own boat. In Florida? Can I come and sleep on your couch?

scubaspider · Aug 1, 2003

What do u mean by endorsements??? Are you refering to nitrox, deep diver, wreck, etc.???

scubacowboy · Aug 1, 2003

Well the fact is you can continue to earn as many as ya want, or never take another course again, its up to you. That doesnt mean you cant dive, hell with your own boat you could do it without an OW card if can find someone stupid enough to fill your tanks for ya.

I agree the money they charge is a little outrageous sometimes, but they are also taking on a large responsibility in teaching more or less "Survival Skills"

Myself, I enjoy new traing and acheiving a higher degree of certification, I like the classes and the books almost as much as diving itself, and when I'm not learning something new or taking my skills to a new level, frankly I'm bored.

I own my own boat here in the Tampabay area as well, and thanks to the training I have I am very comfortable with myself and skills, and I find myself doing some solo diving in the Gulf (not without a compitent deckhand) on occasion. I would not have thought about that after my OW course.

Also additional training makes you a better buddy, knowing how to handle situations and what to look for in your buddy.

Fact is without additional cert cards and training , you may never know what to expect in certain conditions.

medical1 · Aug 1, 2003

I fully agree with the statement that the more endorsements (IE: Nitrox, navagation, etc) make you a better diver!

My point is that my G/F & I took private classes as opposed to cattle classes. My feeling being "This is my life were talking about possibly loosing" so I wanted the best instruction I could get. I was also the only one on over 2 years to get a perfect score on my OW test. I saw people in the general class that couldn't even clear there ears.

I just get the feeling I have a dollar sign on my head and that is what SSI,PADI etc, are more interested in. Is the teaching taking a backdoor to the profit though?

My G/F and I are taking our Stress & rescue class next. Not for the endorsement but because it can & most problably will save someones life.

I was also an EMT & now work in the medical field so I know how serious this sport really is.

PS: We are already Nitrox Certified - more for the additional margin of safety then anything

scubacowboy · Aug 1, 2003

Personnally I dont feel its the Agency as much as the LDS thats out for all the profit, unfortunatley the instructors not only get paid to teach you, they are also on a commisioned pay when it comes to selling you your gear. Fortunatley for me my former instructor knows that I do'nt have "sucker" written on my forehaed when I walk in the shop, but he tried when I was new there. And I've seen him sell some crap that people will probably never need, hell he could sell a ketchup popsicle to a woman in white gloves, but guess what he needs to eat too. What you spend your money on is up to you, do some research before yopu you spend, The classes are worth it. And btw the stress and rescue class is a good one, sharpens your skills.

rmediver2002 · Aug 1, 2003

These are also the most profitable courses for instructors to teach. Consider the time involved, some now do not even require dives these days...

The additional training out there must be evaluated carefully, unfortunately it is almost always expensive and cost is no indication of quality.

I to enjoy the learning side of diving, I take any training oppertunity that comes my way but think long and hard before dropping any of my hard earned cash on training...

If I do have to purchase training then it will be with someone I have researched well, know thier qualifications, and have good references from folks I respect.

Now the other side of the coin here, you can pick up something from everyone, regardless of what they are teaching something can be learned... But make sure it is something of worth to you before spending your money.

Jeff Lane

medical1 · Aug 1, 2003

Where can I obtain a list of instructors that are not with a LDS or are at least more intrested in teaching then being salesmen.

Learning survival skills is more important to me then the hard sell of scuba gear.

I don't mean to offend or downgrade instructors as most are very knowlagable and you can always learn something.

I just get the feeling like I am the only man walking into a bikini bar full of women - and the only thing they see is my wallet.:mean:

This is not a broad generalization or a generalization of broads - This is just my opinion - I could be wrong / Dennis Miller

o2scuba · Aug 1, 2003

scubacowboy once bubbled...
Personnally I dont feel its the Agency as much as the LDS thats out for all the profit, unfortunatley the instructors not only get paid to teach you, they are also on a commisioned pay when it comes to selling you your gear.

What color is the sky in YOUR world??????????

This may be true in some rare case, but not common. Unfortunately many very competant instructors are teaching just for the love of the sport. I know many instructors here in the northeast who are working for very little if anything. In some cases the lds pays the instructors liability insurance, fill their tanks for free and offer good discounts on their personal gear.

Most of these dive centers are micro-businessess, that is one owner struggling to keep up with business expenses. If you break down the costs of teaching an open water class, you'll see that it is NOT a money maker, even at $350. The lds need the income of retail sales to help compensate for costs such as: rent, insurance, power, phone, advertizing, taxes, supplies, vehicles, insurance, accountants,membership & administrative fees (paid to the training agencies), student training equipment, etc..

Now if the agencies were to better regulate the instructor development centers, we might see less of the poorly educated instructors we see so many complaints about on this board. However as long as training companies are spitting out instructors as fast as they can get an approval on their credit cards, the entire industry suffers.

The student suffers by not getting the quality training they deserve.

The instructor suffers as the pay scale is driven down.

The dive center suffers as the standards and qualifications of the general labor pool decreases.

The agencies suffer as well. As there are more and more inexperienced, poorly trained instructors out there, customers/students are getting the impression that their experience represents the quality of the agency in general.

Who is at fault?

The student? Because they are not taking the time to research the qualifications of the lds/instructor?

The instructor? Same reason as above, but also because they are not following the standards set by the agency?

The dive center? Because they are not paying enough to get quality help?

The instructor trainers? Because they are not providing the quality training required to be an instructor?

The agencies? because they are not regulating the quality of the individual instructors adequately?

Perhaps it's a combination. I'm sure there are a lot of different opinions on this one.

I have to disagree with you scubacowboy. Your statement kinda give the impression that instructors are making all the money. Frankly I think the only ones really making out well are the lawyers and the insurance companies.

I think I'm going to put on my bicicle helmet, pepare for the beating

medical1 · Aug 1, 2003

o2scuba /I know many instructors here in the northeast who are working for very little if anything. In some cases the lds pays the instructors liability insurance, fill their tanks for free and offer good discounts on their personal gear.

Perhaps I need to go back North

Down here in the Southeast it's like fast food - now serving # bizillion.

Seems like quantity and equipment sales overshadows quality of instruction. This is not a generalization of all instructors - but the way this business is set it seems to be more & more common. I don't know if I'll do all my classes private - but I'm glad I have chosen that route so far.

***It is more important that you understand what you are tought & how to apply the skills learned- not just how fast you can be rushed through the course.***

Sort of like skydiving. If you have an emergency and don't know how to handle it - YOUR DEAD! .:boom: Scuba is the same - some instructors it seems have forgotten the reality that they are truely teaching lifesaving skills which are more important then equipment sales.:doctor:

This was the whole point of this thread - Is the card representitive of skills or just the fact that someone had enough money to pay for a card. A perfect example is the AOW card that some dive resorts won't let you dive without. If your not skilled as diver, will a card stating you have completed the course save your or your buddies life?

C-Cards/ Qualifications or common sense?

Do endorsements past OW = safe divers?

Fully agree?

Somewhat agree?

Don't agree at all?

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