Too good of a buddy?

[kanonfodr]

I've recently completed a night dive with some regular buddies, but we were with a good sized group on a shallow reef. After we had finished the dive briefing and doing last-minute gear checks before gearing up my friend remarked that I needed a specific color of glowstick on my gear so they would know where I was because they felt safer with me close by.

Now my buddy is a fairly new diver, but the thought ran across my mind of "Why do they need me to feel safe?" We had 13 divers in the water, and their assigned buddy was their significant other who is on the same level (they both got their certs at the same time) whereas I was insta-buddied up with another diver, but we had an instructor leading the dive with a few DMs in the group and divers of varied experience along with us.

Granted, when diving with divers newer than myself (wow...I just turned over 50 dives) I generally take the lead but I feel that, as certified divers, they are completely capable of running their own dive. But then again, not all dive training prepares divers to the same degree that other training curricula does, so I take that into consideration.

The ultimate question is: Am I possibly doing my buddy a disservice by constantly taking the lead, and should I take an active role in trying to develop them as a better diver? I'm not an instructor or any other professional rating but I believe that, as certified divers, anybody should be able to lead a dive at any site when all others are of equal skill levels. More importantly, when diving with others of similar or lower training/experience levels (and really, all dives period) a round-table discussion of the goal of the dive should be discussed by all so that everyone should get to experience part of what they want, within reason of course.

In other words, am I being TOO good of a buddy??

Peace,
Greg

[USCScubaboy]

People have different personalities. I don't think the issue you raise is about skill (diving-wise). Rather, it may simply be a comfort-zone thing. Some people may prefer follow rather than lead, even when diving with people equal to their skill level.

[gcbryan]

It is a good point. I led most of my dives from the beginning on (unless I was diving with a more experienced diver) and as I developed regular buddies some would just assume that I would lead and many/most would prefer that.

I would just come up with reasons every now and then to make sure that they took the lead so that what you are talking about wouldn't happen. You don't always have a make a big deal of having them lead, just ask them if they would lead on a particular dive because you are tired, feeling lazy, want to take pictures, whatever.

You can't worry about it too much if it's instant buddies but if it's people you will be around frequently it's in your and their interest for everyone to be capable divers. Some people are content to let everyone else lead and I've got to believe that it's better not to let that happen.

[Bubbletrubble]

Easy solution. Have members of the dive group take turns leading the dive. Each diver can get the opportunity to lead one complete dive. In turn, this makes divers more sensitive to how difficult the job can be...and they become better followers. Everyone wins. This strategy can work well for a group of "regulars" -- clearly less applicable to ragtag insta-buddies.

Whenever I dive with instructors or DMs, they don't like to lead anyway. They say it feels too much like they're "working."

On 99% of my dives, the primary goal is to have fun. If an inexperienced dive buddy would feel more comfortable following you, you can suggest that the two of you dive side-by-side...or you can just give in and play the leader. Some buddies might not react well to having you "develop" their skills. Go with the flow and have fun.

BTW, why are you guys using glowsticks? Write something unique on the back of your fins with some paint. Show your friends how to identify you by your light and other gear.

[Sas]

I think with an instabuddy I would not bother, would just try to make them comfortable.

For someone I dived with regularly I'd talk about it with them to see if they would like to lead or learn different things. For me personally, I was crap at navigation so I told a buddy who I just used to let navigate as he is so good at it to withdraw navigational support so I'd be forced to learn. It was very helpful to be forced to learn this way.

[Gombessa]

This very subject was brought up in one of my classes (Essentials). My buddy, also the more experienced, is very comfortable leading, and I'm very comfortable taking the #2 position. Our instructor told us that this was a very conspicuous dynamic, and it would probably be to both our benefit to switch up roles and trade off leadership positions, particularly since it lets everyone work on navigation, timing, deco and decision-making skills.

This makes a lot of sense if you're diving in a "team" or with regular buddies. In a less-regular or more insta-buddy type situation, it's probably less applicable, especially if you're showing people around a site for the first time.

One amusing note to me is that a lot of local divers I dive with prefer to not lead dives, since it's more stressful, etc. So there's often a game of "not-me!" that always catches me off-guard (and consequently leaves me as the leader).

[mpgunner]

Mixing things up is good. My dive group also adds some skill practice at the end of a dive (night or not) to keep sharp.

[roturner]

The ultimate question is: Am I possibly doing my buddy a disservice by constantly taking the lead, and should I take an active role in trying to develop them as a better diver?



Greg,

Usually questions like this cause some smart-alec to tell you that if your buddy isn't able to lead the dive that they shouldn't be in the water. I hope you are spared that in this thread.

I think you have to split this thing about "leading" into short term and long term goals.

Long term, I think it's best if you're working toward a situation where nobody is "leading" the dive. You may, however, want to assign certain tasks to certain people. For example, when i dive with my regular buddy we're both aware of the dive plan and parameters, where we are, where we're going, where the other guy is etc. But when we make mid water swimming stops we split tasks. We have no visual reference for mid-water swimming where I live so I usually pay most of my attention to stop depths and times and he uses me as a visual reference for where he should be in the water column. He usually pays more attention to the compass and I use him as a visual reference for which way to swim. In that case, nobody is really leading, but we both have tasks to perform for the "team". The important part of that is that we could switch those rolls at any time and it would make no difference.

On the short term, however, it might be too much to ask a highly inexperienced buddy to do much more than not get lost. Depending on their level of situational awareness, even that could be a full-time job so leading in the sense of setting tempo, depth and direction is a reasonable thing to do. In the situation you described the buddy seemed to be indicating that they wanted you to be in charge so that dive was probably pushing their comfort envelope a bit and it would be good to give them the assistance they were asking for. However, if you make dives with this buddy on a regular basis and also during the day or in conditions that they find less intimidating... THAT ... is the time to turn the rolls around and ask them if they want to take on an additional task besides not getting lost. There are many tasks you can choose from. "Leading" is not a single task. if you split it down it's


controlling depth
controlling direction and/or navigating
controlling tempo
looking for (particular) critters
etc etc etc

You get the idea. There are many tasks. So when you ask them to lead for the first time you might say, for example, "you keep your eyes open for octopus, and I'll watch for sea horses." (or whatever)

It might not seem like "leading" when I say it like that, but the diver will be performing a "task" for the team, which is one of the key elements of learning to lead. Over time, add other tasks and/or raise the bar so they're learning to "lead" or perform multiple tasks but without the stress of "suddenly" being put in a position of being responsible for the entire group.

R..

[kanonfodr]

On 99% of my dives, the primary goal is to have fun. If an inexperienced dive buddy would feel more comfortable following you, you can suggest that the two of you dive side-by-side...or you can just give in and play the leader. Some buddies might not react well to having you "develop" their skills. Go with the flow and have fun.

Very good point, diving is about having fun. And also another good point about some divers not wanting me to develop their skills. But I dive with a focus on trim, bouyancy, and propulsion technique that the average diver here, especially new divers IME, haven't had an exposure to. So it's my own effort to become a better diver in my way by trying to "lead by example," especially with newer divers who haven't been formally exposed to concepts that I have been. I do sincerely try not to be pushy about it, though.



BTW, why are you guys using glowsticks? Write something unique on the back of your fins with some paint. Show your friends how to identify you by your light and other gear.

While the dive was organized by this particular buddy, it was being sponsored by one of the local dive clubs and their policy for night dives is that all divers should use glowsticks. Believe me, I was the last diver to take one, hoping that they would run out ;). But if it makes the other divers feel better, and it doesn't really affect me, then why not?

Also, caught your comment before your edit. I'm not trying to be facetious with this, just wanting to make my position clear: I'm still a new diver, and while I'm not always the most confident in my skills I am very confident in my training. Dunno if that makes sense to others, but it's the easiest way I can explain it.

If I were to put it into another perspective, I dive with another group that includes several technical divers and a tech instructor or two, depending on who shows up that day. Most of the divers have multiples of the dive count I do, and I readily consider myself one of the weaker links in the chain because everyone has a lot more experience than myself. So I have a tendency to bounce between being the Weak Link to being the leader of the group, kinda seems a bit Manic-Depressive when I look back on it. And some days I am completely on the ball and feel great after a dive, other times I come out of the water feeling pretty bad about myself. So I'm not consistently at the level where I want to be, and consistency IMO is a feature of all good divers.

Peace,
Greg

[Bubbletrubble]

Also, caught your comment before your edit. I'm not trying to be facetious with this, just wanting to make my position clear: I'm still a new diver, and while I'm not always the most confident in my skills I am very confident in my training. Dunno if that makes sense to others, but it's the easiest way I can explain it.
OK. I'm busted. :D

Greg, I removed those comments because, after thinking about it a little more, I think I was being too harsh. Please know this, though. I will dive with pretty much any certified diver out there who doesn't do anything to endanger himself or his buddy (me). There have been a couple of occasions when I've dived with someone who exuded an intolerable haughtiness topside. It annoyed me to the extent that I won't do dive trips with those individuals anymore. I can't tell you how painful it is to do a one-hour surface interval while sitting in a small panga next to someone that blusters on about how great he is. I considered putting my hood back on so I wouldn't have to listen to his stories (topside temp was 80°F). I realize that's not you. Please don't ever turn into that kind of person. Sorry for the rant.

So I have a tendency to bounce between being the Weak Link to being the leader of the group, kinda seems a bit Manic-Depressive when I look back on it. And some days I am completely on the ball and feel great after a dive, other times I come out of the water feeling pretty bad about myself. So I'm not consistently at the level where I want to be, and consistency IMO is a feature of all good divers.

Dude, chill out. Diving is fun. Enjoy it. It's OK to want to improve, but don't let those thoughts morph into "feeling pretty bad" about yourself.

[TSandM]

Unlike Rob, I do believe that one person "leads" the dive, in the sense that that person is the one the other team members key on. I usually assign the person with the camera to lead, because he's the one most likely to be stopping constantly :) But I agree with Rob that everyone on the team should be capable of assuming the role (and sometimes it changes).

I know that, when I started diving with my regular buddy, I was lazy and let him lead. He caught on and refused to do it and made me learn. I was very uncomfortable at first; now I couldn't care less. Sometimes people need to be pushed into performing tasks they aren't entirely comfortable with, so that they can gain facility and confidence.

[roturner]

Unlike Rob, I do believe that one person "leads" the dive, in the sense that that person is the one the other team members key on.

Lynne, what do you mean by "key on"?

R..

[sabbath999]

But when we make mid water swimming stops we split tasks. We have no visual reference for mid-water swimming where I live so I usually pay most of my attention to stop depths and times and he uses me as a visual reference for where he should be in the water column. He usually pays more attention to the compass and I use him as a visual reference for which way to swim. In that case, nobody is really leading, but we both have tasks to perform for the "team". The important part of that is that we could switch those rolls at any time and it would make no difference.

My regular buddy and I (spouse) generally do the exact same thing midwater, we have kind of a standing rule that, unless something is said in our pre-dive plan we will default to me doing the depths and her doing the compass... but we will often switch that up so that both of us are ready to do either at a moment's notice.

We very consciously don't "lead" each other in our dives, but practice side by side... our goal is that most of the time (unless one of us is shooting pictures or videos) we are never more than half the distance of vis from each other when we dive in the cold, dark waters around here... or more than 10 feet apart, whichever is less. With the vis we often have, we are within long octo hose of each other most of the dive, side by side.

Last Saturday we were diving, I turned to look for where I knew she was and I had lost sight of her completely. Then I felt her grab my hand... I still couldn't SEE her but we communicated with hand squeezes until the vis opened up a bit. I was in a "clear" patch along the wall where there was more light so she could see me, but she was in a shadowed area... yes, the vis was that bad.

[Blackwood]

I
The ultimate question is: Am I possibly doing my buddy a disservice by constantly taking the lead, and should I take an active role in trying to develop them as a better diver?

Depends on them, not you.

[Jim Lapenta]

Allowing a less skilled buddy to take the lead once in awhile is not being a bad buddy. In fact divers should switch roles from time to time. One of the best ways to develop new skills is to allow the less skilled diver to take a leading role. It requires them to be more self reliant and makes them a better buddy.

[NWGratefulDiver]

I've recently completed a night dive with some regular buddies, but we were with a good sized group on a shallow reef. After we had finished the dive briefing and doing last-minute gear checks before gearing up my friend remarked that I needed a specific color of glowstick on my gear so they would know where I was because they felt safer with me close by.

Now my buddy is a fairly new diver, but the thought ran across my mind of "Why do they need me to feel safe?" We had 13 divers in the water, and their assigned buddy was their significant other who is on the same level (they both got their certs at the same time) whereas I was insta-buddied up with another diver, but we had an instructor leading the dive with a few DMs in the group and divers of varied experience along with us.

Granted, when diving with divers newer than myself (wow...I just turned over 50 dives) I generally take the lead but I feel that, as certified divers, they are completely capable of running their own dive. But then again, not all dive training prepares divers to the same degree that other training curricula does, so I take that into consideration.

The ultimate question is: Am I possibly doing my buddy a disservice by constantly taking the lead, and should I take an active role in trying to develop them as a better diver? I'm not an instructor or any other professional rating but I believe that, as certified divers, anybody should be able to lead a dive at any site when all others are of equal skill levels. More importantly, when diving with others of similar or lower training/experience levels (and really, all dives period) a round-table discussion of the goal of the dive should be discussed by all so that everyone should get to experience part of what they want, within reason of course.

In other words, am I being TOO good of a buddy??

Peace,
Greg

Your buddy's possibly looking to you as a mentor ... and although it's important for people to stay within a comfort zone during a dive ... it's equally important for them to not develop a dependency on someone else for their safety. You mentioned this was a night dive. How many night dives has your friend done? Perhaps it was nothing more than some misgivings about an environment he hasn't become accustomed to yet. That's pretty normal. But rather than simply "staying close by", perhaps give him some opportunities to take a more participatory role in the planning and execution of the dive. Nothing builds confidence like success ... and the realization that "I can do this".

It's fairly normal for newer divers to look to other, more experienced divers for "comfort" when pushing their experiences. What you need to watch out for is that this is a cycle that he gets through, rather than a habit that he develops over an extended period of time.

So rather than asking yourself whether you're being TOO good of a buddy, perhaps the right question is what kind of buddy can you be that will help your friend develop greater self-confidence?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[TSandM]

Rob, by "key on", I mean that that's the person who sets the pace and picks the precise path, and the other two, while scanning their surroundings for things of interest, keep a weather eye on the leader and adjust their courses to stay acceptably close to him. I find it works best to assign this role to the photographer, because if he is one of the outriders, he's likely to stop and take photos and not notice that the other two are moving on until unacceptable separation has occurred. (Of course, it's EVERYBODY's job to keep track of the entire team, but in practice, we know what happens to someone who is composing a picture . . .)

[diver 85]

"In other words, am I being TOO good of a buddy??"


no---

[Hoomi]

I also think it's not so much an indication of the quality of training that leaves some people feeling inadequate to lead, but rather their perceptions of themselves. It's easier to follow in many disciplines, rather than risk making a public goof while in the lead. Quite often, the fear of appearing inexperienced is worse than the reality of being inexperienced.

If I'm playing my flute in a flute choir, where I can sit in the back row and follow the more experienced flutists, I'm a more relaxed player. If I make a mistake, it's not as likely that anyone is going to notice. If I'm playing a solo or have a lead part, then I perceive my performance as being under far more critical scrutiny, and I'm more worried about potential mistakes.

My anxiety, then, isn't really so much a product of my training, as it is a product of my own self-conscious insecurities. We don't just deal with the fear of making mistakes - we deal with the fear that someone might witness said mistake, and think less of us because of it.

Even understanding what's behind it, it can be difficult to overcome that fear.

[xeptra]

I didn't feel comfortable taking the lead on a dive until around my 30th dive. I was scared and still feeling very new. Not that I'm all that much more experienced now, but if I am at a site that i've been to before and know I have no problems leading away. I still prefer someone else to take the lead if they are more experienced with a specific site. I've actually ahd people request me to elad them to a new site now and that felt pretty good :)
In general though I wouldn't say you are being a bad buddy, especailly if it's an insta-buddy. However I agree with other users when they say that if it is someone you dive with often slowly let them take the lead as their comfert level increases.

[tomboyy]

Depending on the buddy and the location, My buddies and me usually switch leaders. We do the usual pre-dive planning and know the dive profile , but I may start leading and then he'll lead awhile and we go back and forth. We just kinda know if your in front you keep track of your buddy behind.

The dives I'm talking about are stomping grounds dives ... I'm not talking about new dive sites.

[spectrum]

I wouldn't call it being too good of a buddy at all. Some divers don't want the responsibility of getting the team back to the right place at the right pace. I think there is a time and place to pass the baton. If I'm diving with someone who I feel is open to taking on the responsibility I'll tell them "you're driving". I don't think they have ever said "no" though they have asked me to not let them mess it up.

Navigation has a number of components. We all think about the technical operation of the compass and site knowledge. There are also personal abilities in spacial relations and personal ability will vary. There is a huge difference between doing a few navigation tricks for AOW and leading and executing an interesting dive that goes full circle while keeping track of 1 or 2 buddies. AOW does not a navigator make.

The upside of being in the lead is that you pick the pace and precise course. I subscribe to the leader and follower(s) mentality. I dive with many divers and usually in relatively limited visibility, it just makes it easier. I have seen well tuned buddy teams that run the dive in a more democratic fashion and that's cool if you're in tune to do it.

Pete

[Gambitt]

Too good of a Buddy? I vote no..

When your Buddy dives with you, he's following your lead, and learning from your experience.

If he goes out tomorrow, with a different group, with less experience than himself, then your leadership will be his background to lead the new group.

In the Army, a Lieutenant will lead a Sargent, but the Sargent leads the Privates..

[SkimFisher]

I lead a lot of dives. But I don't want to lead EVERY dive. Sometimes I just want to dive. So I would say to hand over the ropes on a regular basis. When I first started diving and was the newbie (which I still am depending on what kind of dive we're doing) the more experienced divers would say, "Ok, you're the new guy, lead the way." Obviously, it's all relative to the difficulty of the dive you're doing. But if you're just site seeing, then I would say absolutely - make them lead some dives. They need to be confident in their own abilities and in turn you should feel confident in their abilities.

[Hoomi]

Too good of a Buddy? I vote no..

When your Buddy dives with you, he's following your lead, and learning from your experience.

If he goes out tomorrow, with a different group, with less experience than himself, then your leadership will be his background to lead the new group.

In the Army, a Lieutenant will lead a Sargent, but the Sargent leads the Privates..

That depends on the lieutenant. I knew a lot of lieutenants in the USAF that weren't qualified to handle their own privates, let alone a flight of Airmen. Had it not been for qualified sergeants, the work would never get done. The worst lieutenants for that were most often the ones from the Academy, that came out thinking they were hot stuff because they were Academy grads. It usually didn't take too long for them to get their hineys handed to them by some career Master Sergeant.

The smart lieutenant is the one that lets the sergeant lead, and learns by watching how it's really done. ;)

[LeadTurn_SD]

Greg,

It sounds to me like you are being a terrific buddy.

As mentioned in several great posts above, some folks are just more comfortable following, and have a terrific time doing just that.

It seems I've "led" most of the dives I've been on. But leading for me most often just means "watching over" the other diver(s) I'm with... not necessarily directing the dive, maybe not even planning it (but I might make gentle "suggestions" if I'm uncomfortable with the plan).

So, somtimes I'm "leading from the rear" on a dive, enjoying myself, but still keep an eye on things.

The more you dive, and the more your buddies dive, the easier and more natural all this becomes.

Best wishes.

[spectrum]

As mentioned in several great posts above, some folks are just more comfortable following, and have a terrific time doing just that.

One way to get nominated leader next time is to be a poor follower this time. I don't mind leading for the most part except when I need to spend the dive turning around looking up my crotch and doing helicopter turns playing where's Waldo.

Next time that diver leads and I do my best to set the example of a flanking buddy.

The other favorite is the follower that swims ahead, how is that supposed to work? I just start following them and keep track of where they take me. No sense dealing with that underwater. I'm happy to be cruising along neutral.

Keep that in mind when leading the reluctant navigator.

Pete