Change the Stamina Tests

[TMHeimer]

This is a long one. Bear with me. Just passed the PADI DM stamina (re)tests (finally doing the 400, getting a 3) after 6 1/2 months' training (could've done it in 2-3 months but classes shut down for winter). So I've had way too much time to think about them. I'm assuming the tests have been what they are for a long time. My reason for suggesting changes is that they should be more relevant to what a DM does. Safety and rescue skills are the most important aspects of divemastering, in my "newbie" opinion. Some have said that the tests have nothing to do with that, but are simply to judge how comfortable one is in water. That makes sense if someone just sat sown one day and thought up some neat tests to do. I've been comfortable in water since maybe 1962 and a high school swim team member in 1970. Here we go:

400 meter Swim:
Change: Eliminate it.
Reasons: Some people actually sign up for the OW course and literally can't swim. Thus, an OW swim test. But often there is a choice of 200 meters or 300 with MFS. For the OW course, the instructor should ensure that all students can, in fact swim! Maybe have them do one lap if they're doing the 300 MSF instead. An instructor should not actually have to even see them swim at all, as anyone taking SCUBA or any water activity who actually can't swim is nuts. The ability to swim should be a given. But you have to check. On to DM: The chances a DM would ever have to swim at all without fins (let alone 400m) is negligible. Rescue course says to have MFS ready at all times. Several have posted that they've fallen off boats themselves or had to jump in to rescue someone with no time to don the fins. I don't know--floating? boat picking you up? the whole boat with all PFDs sank? If a DM ever had to swim 400m or much less and then tow a diver (panicked?) back it's time to prey. Yes, I guess if one thought long enough one may eventually come up with a one in a million scenario. You can get hit by lightning too, but you're not going to train to avoid that.
If someone falls off a boat a DM would try the other assists first and may then jump in without fins, but there's no long distance swimming here. You have to be in swimming shape to do well on a timed long distance swim. It can, but doesn't have to have anything to do with you're overall shape or comfort level in the water. I say that as a former swimmer. We don't need a test for DM--we know they can swim from OW.

15 minute Float:
Changes: 1. Make it an hour in the deep end without drowning (another poster's suggestion). Of course, this would take a lot more pool/class time. Salt water is easy for most. Fresh is hard for me as my feet sink, and "egg beater" kicking doesn't work for me. Drown proofing does. I got a 5 on that one after figuring that out. Floating is important mostly if you have to be doing it a long time prior to rescue.
2. Eliminate the 2 minutes "hands out" thing. Whoever thought of that? For me, the drown proofing also made this a walk in the park, but I don't get it. I'm in the middle of the Pacific floating for 9 hours and decide to hold my hands out as a challenge? One poster asked: what if your floating or rescuing someone and don't have use of your hands? Well I guess you'd prey (oops, can't- no use of hands...).

800 meter Mask, Fins and Snorkel Swim:
Changes: 1. Make it longer, maybe twice as long and adjust the times accordingly, as doing 1600 meters means you'd probably slow a lot more toward the end. This is something DMs likely will have to do. I got a 3 yesterday and a 2 originally with no training at all. Maybe because my legs were in decent shape because I dive a lot. Whereas with the 400, which involves a combination of skills I could barely do 50 meters and conked out the first try.
2. Allow the use of arms. Not to make it easier, but because this is what you'd do to go out and rescue someone. You wouldn't keep you're arms at your side or in front of you (but still) thinking "Gee, I want to reach the guy quickly but I'm not allowed to use my arms"! Maybe the original thinking was that we don't use arms while diving and rarely while snorkelling. But what about divemastering?

100 meter Tired Diver Tow:
Change: Make it longer, maybe twice as long, and adjust times accordingly, as you'd slow down toward the end. This test is very practical. It's a rescue technique. Distance in this test is more important than time, because it is a "tired diver tow", not a "diver in cardiac arrest tow". Maybe that's a good idea for a different test? I only got a 2, but lost time (doing the "push", as most do) on the turns. My tests were all in one day in an 11.6 meter pool, thus 7 turns on the tow. With this test especially (but the others too), it would be nice if everyone everywhere used the same length pool, or lake, salt water, etc. The variations can askew comparisons in times, of course. But that's life.

So, what do you pros think? I'm sure many of you will disagree with me on a lot, especially on the 400 meter. As I said, I had a lot of time to think about this. Had I been in swim (team) shape, I probably would've gotten my 12 or more points the first try and not thought about it at all. I feel great having gotten the monkey off my back, and look at it as just a requirement that must be met to graduate. One may also say that a considerable amount of the physics and dive/decompression theory is stuff you'll probably never use. But, it's interesting stuff and must be done. I studied 7 1/2 months for those tests and missed 10 out of 160 questions. As a Band Instructor 19 years with a Masters, I found that in teaching I probably used about 20% of everything I learned in college, and many teachers agreed. Maybe a little more time spent on what a DM does would be more helpful, though we did get plenty of that with a really good instructor. All of the DM stuff was expremely interesting, both academics and practical. I have to polish my demo skills more and do one charter-hope to join you pros very soon. But I do think it's time PADI sat down and modified the stamina tests.

Thanks for your patience.

[vjanelle]

From everyone I've talked to, the only issue anyone ever had was with the 400m test. Also, these don't exist in the IDC.

[knotical]

The tide's going out and a kid falls off the pier, or someone hits their head and stumbles off a moving boat, or . . . etc.
If you turn away to find your mask / snorkel / fins, you might lose sight of them.

Since DMs are likely to be around water, and people are likely to fall in, I'd support the addition of basic lifeguard skills such as approaches, assists, and rescues, all without equipment.
And I'd keep the swim test as the most relevant measure of stamina for the sorts of rescues mentioned above.

[iztok]

If a DM ever had to swim 400m or much less and then tow a diver (panicked?) back it's time to prey.


Well I guess you'd prey (oops, can't- no use of hands...).

Preying on other divers is not really good thing ;)

[TMHeimer]

The tide's going out and a kid falls off the pier, or someone hits their head and stumbles off a moving boat, or . . . etc.
If you turn away to find your mask / snorkel / fins, you might lose sight of them.

Since DMs are likely to be around water, and people are likely to fall in, I'd support the addition of basic lifeguard skills such as approaches, assists, and rescues, all without equipment.
And I'd keep the swim test as the most relevant measure of stamina for the sorts of rescues mentioned above.

Interesting point. Kind of like everyone should know CPR. But I don't know if lifeguard skills should be part of a scuba course. Maybe. But I guess fishermen and other water sports people should learn these too?

[TMHeimer]

From everyone I've talked to, the only issue anyone ever had was with the 400m test. Also, these don't exist in the IDC.

Yeah, I can believe that. It's really the only one I've had issue with also. The other 3 I feel are all somewhat relevant, just need some tweeking.

[Quero]

In respect to lifeguarding skills... I've never been trained as a lifeguard, but one of my current Rescue students is a lifeguard trainer from Switzerland. We both feel we're gaining a lot of insight from one another in comparing training and skills required of professionals.

He says he asks his trainees not only to tread water with their hands out of the water, but to hold a heavy ball at the same time--in addition, they have to have the whole lower arm, up to the elbows, out of the water. This is to enable them to maintain an unconscious victim's head above waves during a rescue.

[halemanō]

Perhaps your own personal definition of "comfortable in the water" is just the "comfortable in the water definition for an OW diver" (300 meter m,s,f?).

I think all the ripped, in-shape, sinkers in the world should consider wearing a 1-3 mm shorty and then getting weighted for neutral buoyancy before they swim by the way; fair is fair.

Perhaps the definition of "comfortable in the water" for a DM is not the same as the definition of "comfortable in the water" for an OW diver.

If the 400 meters is the only portion being complained about the other portions should be harder; for it to be a working with the public dive certification level there should be some number of candidates complaining about every part.

The requirements for some DM/OWSI programs are pretty weak already. I'd be interested in certain parts needing semi-annual renewal, like first aid, cpr and stamina, for everyone with in-water teaching status.

[TMHeimer]

[QUOTE=halemanō;5219684]Perhaps your own personal definition of "comfortable in the water" is just the "comfortable in the water definition for an OW diver" (300 meter m,s,f?).

You may be right. I always felt very comfortable, but maybe I should think about that.

QUOTE:
I think all the ripped, in-shape, sinkers in the world should consider wearing a 1-3 mm shorty and then getting weighted for neutral buoyancy before they swim by the way; fair is fair.

This makes sense to me. But it calls into question what the ripped guy/girl would do if they had to swim with just bathing suit. Interesting take on the 400.

QUOTE:
If the 400 meters is the only portion being complained about the other portions should be harder; for it to be a working with the public dive certification level there should be some number of candidates complaining about every part.

Agree about the other parts being harder. Not sure what you mean about candidates complaining about every part.

[TMHeimer]

In respect to lifeguarding skills... I've never been trained as a lifeguard, but one of my current Rescue students is a lifeguard trainer from Switzerland. We both feel we're gaining a lot of insight from one another in comparing training and skills required of professionals.

He says he asks his trainees not only to tread water with their hands out of the water, but to hold a heavy ball at the same time--in addition, they have to have the whole lower arm, up to the elbows, out of the water. This is to enable them to maintain an unconscious victim's head above waves during a rescue.

Excellent and responsible idea for pros to learn each other's activity's techniques. In your scenario proper buoyancy with BCD and pocket mask to protect airway would probably be the rescue diver's choice.

[halemanō]

If a person floats without effort, the tread is not an issue; perhaps all students should be weighted for neutral for all the non-scuba gear stamina skills.

Every portion of the DM exam should be hard enough that it is nearly too hard for some of the Graduates; damn, I just barely passed that section. There should be Candidates failing and they should be failing because of ALL the portions; some fail because of stamina, some fail because of physics, some fail because of coordination, etc.

[TMHeimer]

If a person floats without effort, the tread is not an issue; perhaps all students should be weighted for neutral for all the non-scuba gear stamina skills.

Every portion of the DM exam should be hard enough that it is nearly too hard for some of the Graduates; damn, I just barely passed that section. There should be Candidates failing and they should be failing because of ALL the portions; some fail because of stamina, some fail because of physics, some fail because of coordination, etc.

This all makes sense to me. Some good input from all-keep 'em coming. Anyone have views on how I would change the 800, 100 and float? What do you guys think of my suggestions specifically?

[Divin'Hoosier]

I'm of the opinion that dive professionals should be strong swimmers. I'd even be in favor of DMs and instructors being required to pass a lifesaving course (and stay current with it). Teaching people to dive involves putting people in and around water that aren't necessarily comfortable in it. As a professional, we should be able to perform a rescue in full scuba gear, snorkeling gear or unaided.

[DCBC]

I'm of the opinion that dive professionals should be strong swimmers. ...As a professional, we should be able to perform a rescue in full scuba gear, snorkeling gear or unaided.

I agree; a dive professional should be reasonably competent to effect a rescue regardless of equipment considerations.

The whole idea of teaching non-swimmers scuba diving is preposterous imo. I'm aware that times have changed. Today's divers have much better buoyancy systems and more dependable equipment than we had 45 years ago. Experience has also shown me that anything mechanical can malfunction (and sometimes does). Placing the safety of a diver solely in the hands of technological parachutes without redundancy can be foolhardy, but some agencies allow it. Go figure. :confused:

[knotical]

Interesting point. Kind of like everyone should know CPR. But I don't know if lifeguard skills should be part of a scuba course. Maybe. But I guess fishermen and other water sports people should learn these too?While it would be nice if fishermen, and everyone else around water learned such techniques, it's not practical. But I'd at least like to hold the professionals (DMs, captains, etc.) to a higher standard.

[Quero]

In respect to lifeguarding skills... I've never been trained as a lifeguard, but one of my current Rescue students is a lifeguard trainer from Switzerland. We both feel we're gaining a lot of insight from one another in comparing training and skills required of professionals.

He says he asks his trainees not only to tread water with their hands out of the water, but to hold a heavy ball at the same time--in addition, they have to have the whole lower arm, up to the elbows, out of the water. This is to enable them to maintain an unconscious victim's head above waves during a rescue.
Excellent and responsible idea for pros to learn each other's activity's techniques. In your scenario proper buoyancy with BCD and pocket mask to protect airway would probably be the rescue diver's choice.

Yes, of course you are right. My student is finding learning how to do in-water rescue breathing very enlightening. It's a completely different skill-set for him even though he is an expert rescuer. The rest of it is a piece of cake for him!

[RU4SKUBA]

I just refreshed my American Red Cross Lifeguard Training Course last Friday and had several discussions with the instructor about the practicality of lifeguard skills (and efficient use of equipment, including the backboard) in a diving environment.

The primary reason for treading water with your hands out of the water is to show that you can tread water while preoccupied with some other duty, like backboarding a head/neck victim, unresponsive diver at surface, etc. We did it for 1 minute holding a 10 pound weight out of the water, which washed out several students and forced much of the class to repeat the skill.

After returning a diving victim to the boat and removing gear it would be of tremendous assistance to any primary rescuer to have a backboard available and at least one other person available that can use it proficiently, not to mention have a selection of cervical collars.

If I owned a dive op, I'd do monthly in-services and include as much lifeguarding fundamentals as my crew could stomach. Much of it can be derived directly from the new Red Cross Lifeguarding manual available at most local chapters.

[TMHeimer]

I'm of the opinion that dive professionals should be strong swimmers. I'd even be in favor of DMs and instructors being required to pass a lifesaving course (and stay current with it). Teaching people to dive involves putting people in and around water that aren't necessarily comfortable in it. As a professional, we should be able to perform a rescue in full scuba gear, snorkeling gear or unaided.

Point taken. It's crazy amazing that some folks who are uncomfortable in water just jump in and take up scuba. It's the last thing I'd do. But you're right, that's the way it is today. Re the lifesaving course--good idea, but I doubt it will ever happen. For one, who pays for it? And if a refresher is required wouldn't it be logical to first require a refresher in scuba rescue and demonstration skills? Who pays for that? I honestly can't see dive pros, especially seasoned instructors ever going for that. We already have to refresh EFR every 2 years. My refresher cost $90. I watched a video, we chatted some in class and did the dummy work. I skim over 4 pages of the EFR manual daily, so I basically paid the $ for 5 mins. with the dummy. My original course (in a different country-New Jersey) was no more thorough than the refresher. No work at all with bandaging. In fact, my DMC instructor took the EFR Instructor course only because she got tired of renewing each year and paying for it. Another question is if dive pros are required to do a lifesaving course should lifeguards be required to take a rescue diver course? I know that's impractical as they would first need an OW course and equipment. But still, it can be a matter of money vs. the chances of a diver actually needing lifeguard skills for the one in a million chance he might have to rescue someone in a non-dive situation with no lifeguards around. To get way far afield, one would save hundreds more by giving all one's money to charity and joining the Peace Corps. I'm not being critical, as I agree that any safety course is good and one should be commended for taking it. Just looking at it practically.

[halemanō]

Not sure I understand your EFR story. AFAIK, here and in the rest of the USA, the only renewal costs to continuing as a PADI Teaching Status OWSI are membership and insurance. If you are covered on a shop insurance policy then membership is all that's required. Is a DM in Canada required to renew EFR to maintain Active DM status? Not saying renewed EFR for Instructors and DM's isn't a good idea, just wondering who it's required for.

If someone with an EFR Instructor rating never even helps teach an EFR class, how long do they stay a certified EFR Instructor? If an EFR Instructor rating can expire due to lack of use, would an MSDT rating expire due to an EFR Instructor rating expiring?

[halemanō]

Another question is if dive pros are required to do a lifesaving course should lifeguards be required to take a rescue diver course? I know that's impractical as they would first need an OW course and equipment. But still, it can be a matter of money vs. the chances of a diver actually needing lifeguard skills for the one in a million chance he might have to rescue someone in a non-dive situation with no lifeguards around. To get way far afield, one would save hundreds more by giving all one's money to charity and joining the Peace Corps. I'm not being critical, as I agree that any safety course is good and one should be commended for taking it. Just looking at it practically.

Man up, please. :shakehead:

[Divin'Hoosier]

Another question is if dive pros are required to do a lifesaving course should lifeguards be required to take a rescue diver course? I know that's impractical as they would first need an OW course and equipment. But still, it can be a matter of money vs. the chances of a diver actually needing lifeguard skills for the one in a million chance he might have to rescue someone in a non-dive situation with no lifeguards around.

Huh? Rarely are lifeguards around divers nor are most lifeguards certified divers themselves, so I would say no. The exception would be ocean lifeguards along the coasts where alot of shore diving occurs. I do believe that lifeguards, especially professional lifeguards, in these situations are trained to rescue a diver once they are on the surface. That is not the same thing as taking a rescue diver course.

Who said anything about rescuing someone in a non-dive situation when a lifeguard is not around? My argument is that lifesaving skills are very, very helpful to allow you, as a dive professional, to perform a rescue in just about all diving situations.

The argument I am trying to make is that becoming a dive professional means you are now working in a professional capacity that involves taking students in and around water. It is hard to anticipate exactly what type of assistance may be required in an emergency. To best prepare, dive professionals must possess exceptional diver rescue skills. They must also be current in CPR and First Aid. Those are all great. However, there are elements that seem to be missing. Why not require dive professionals to be trained in lifeguard skills? Why not require dive professionals to be trained in oxygen first aid? Those seem to be very useful skills, almost essential skills, to have available to you. However, the agency I'm certified through does not require them. I'm not sure that's a good idea.

Back to your original post. I would be very disappointed if PADI dropped the 400 yard swim requirement. I feel strongly that dive professionals should, as a prerequisite, be reasonably strong swimmers and possess above average stamina and fitness. How best to test those than to require a timed swim of moderate length?

[TMHeimer]

Not sure I understand your EFR story. AFAIK, here and in the rest of the USA, the only renewal costs to continuing as a PADI Teaching Status OWSI are membership and insurance. If you are covered on a shop insurance policy then membership is all that's required. Is a DM in Canada required to renew EFR to maintain Active DM status? Not saying renewed EFR for Instructors and DM's isn't a good idea, just wondering who it's required for.

If someone with an EFR Instructor rating never even helps teach an EFR class, how long do they stay a certified EFR Instructor? If an EFR Instructor rating can expire due to lack of use, would an MSDT rating expire due to an EFR Instructor rating expiring?

You're absolutely right. I called PADI and they said it must be a LDS rule. I was SURE it was a PADI rule. Thanks-you learn something every day.

[TMHeimer]

Huh? Rarely are lifeguards around divers nor are most lifeguards certified divers themselves, so I would say no. The exception would be ocean lifeguards along the coasts where alot of shore diving occurs. I do believe that lifeguards, especially professional lifeguards, in these situations are trained to rescue a diver once they are on the surface. That is not the same thing as taking a rescue diver course.

Who said anything about rescuing someone in a non-dive situation when a lifeguard is not around? My argument is that lifesaving skills are very, very helpful to allow you, as a dive professional, to perform a rescue in just about all diving situations.

The argument I am trying to make is that becoming a dive professional means you are now working in a professional capacity that involves taking students in and around water. It is hard to anticipate exactly what type of assistance may be required in an emergency. To best prepare, dive professionals must possess exceptional diver rescue skills. They must also be current in CPR and First Aid. Those are all great. However, there are elements that seem to be missing. Why not require dive professionals to be trained in lifeguard skills? Why not require dive professionals to be trained in oxygen first aid? Those seem to be very useful skills, almost essential skills, to have available to you. However, the agency I'm certified through does not require them. I'm not sure that's a good idea.

Back to your original post. I would be very disappointed if PADI dropped the 400 yard swim requirement. I feel strongly that dive professionals should, as a prerequisite, be reasonably strong swimmers and possess above average stamina and fitness. How best to test those than to require a timed swim of moderate length?

I didn't know lifeguards were trained to rescue divers on the surface-thanks.
As I mentioned to Halemano, I found that PADI doesn't required keeping EFR refreshed, but I guess LDSs can. This was news to me. Agree completely about the O2 training, I guess beyond what you get in Rescue.
Re the 400: I guess that's just a topic that could and has been debated a lot. It certainly can't hurt to be a fine swimmer, I guess I'm always just stuck up on the possibility of a scenario where a DM would actually be swimming 200, 400 meters to do a rescue. I'd still like for anyone to give me a specific scenario for that, but that's just me beating a dead horse.

[halemanō]

Re the 400: I guess that's just a topic that could and has been debated a lot. It certainly can't hurt to be a fine swimmer, I guess I'm always just stuck up on the possibility of a scenario where a DM would actually be swimming 200, 400 meters to do a rescue. I'd still like for anyone to give me a specific scenario for that, but that's just me beating a dead horse.

The only people who are debating this from the side you are debating it are weak in the water and probably not worthy DM candidates (or graduates).

The PADI DM Stamina Skill's are a total score for all 4 skills; you could still pass even if it took 2 hours to complete the 400 (1 pt? - well insulated person floating on their back with continuous progress and no hanging on the walls?). As with every other certification level in the PADI world, the requirements to pass PADI DM are among the easiest DM requirements in the dive world.

Continuing to whine on the internet about the 400 is pretty pathetic. :dontknow:

[TMHeimer]

The only people who are debating this from the side you are debating it are weak in the water and probably not worthy DM candidates (or graduates).

The PADI DM Stamina Skill's are a total score for all 4 skills; you could still pass even if it took 2 hours to complete the 400 (1 pt? - well insulated person floating on their back with continuous progress and no hanging on the walls?). As with every other certification level in the PADI world, the requirements to pass PADI DM are among the easiest DM requirements in the dive world.

Continuing to whine on the internet about the 400 is pretty pathetic. :dontknow:

Well, I don't know. I did what I had to do get a 3 in the end, which I don't consider too bad at age 56. I'm sure you'll disagree. I'm just questioning it's practicality. We'll just have to agree to disagree. No need for name calling, it's just a discussion.

[Ber Rabbit]

The explanation I was given by my agency where we have to swim 450 yards in 10 minutes or less, it's pass/fail there's no point system grading. I was told the bar has to be set somewhere. I've seen a post on here or an article (I don't remember which) that described the history of the distance for the swim. I believe it had to do with swimming around the end of a pier and back again or something, don't quote me. I asked if we could count it a pass if the individual was within a few seconds of the 10 minutes and was told no. If we start fudging it a few seconds then the next guy fudges it a few more and so on. The standard is 450 yards in 10 minutes or less, period. You don't make it, you go back to training until you can. It's part of the definition of being an instructor with my agency.

I have to work hard to get that distance in that time, I can do it in 11 minutes most days but that's not good enough. I have seen people with an efficient stroke do it in just over 4 minutes. That tells me the 10 minutes isn't unreasonable I just have to work for it.
Ber :lilbunny:

[TMHeimer]

The explanation I was given by my agency where we have to swim 450 yards in 10 minutes or less, it's pass/fail there's no point system grading. I was told the bar has to be set somewhere. I've seen a post on here or an article (I don't remember which) that described the history of the distance for the swim. I believe it had to do with swimming around the end of a pier and back again or something, don't quote me. I asked if we could count it a pass if the individual was within a few seconds of the 10 minutes and was told no. If we start fudging it a few seconds then the next guy fudges it a few more and so on. The standard is 450 yards in 10 minutes or less, period. You don't make it, you go back to training until you can. It's part of the definition of being an instructor with my agency.

I have to work hard to get that distance in that time, I can do it in 11 minutes most days but that's not good enough. I have seen people with an efficient stroke do it in just over 4 minutes. That tells me the 10 minutes isn't unreasonable I just have to work for it.
Ber :lilbunny:

With PADI you score a "3" out of 5 for doing 400 yards in 8-10 minutes, so it's a little slacker, but similar. Of course, if you score enough points on the other 3 things all you have to do is finish the 400 with PADI-that's the big difference. We had one guy who did it in about 5 minutes, getting a "5", but he was a competitive swimmer.

[Divin'Hoosier]

With PADI you score a "3" out of 5 for doing 400 yards in 8-10 minutes, so it's a little slacker, but similar. Of course, if you score enough points on the other 3 things all you have to do is finish the 400 with PADI-that's the big difference. We had one guy who did it in about 5 minutes, getting a "5", but he was a competitive swimmer.

Disclaimer ... I scored a 5 on the 400 yd swim :D

While I don't think you should be required to score a 5 on the tests, I'm not a big fan of the fact that you can score a 1 on some of them and still pass. IMO it would better serve our future students if a 3 was the minimum passing score for any individual test. I believe that's consistent with 12 being a passing total score. There are 4 tests, with a total score of 12 being required to pass. Last time I checked, 12/4 was 3. I see no reason to not require at least a 3 on each test.

[halemanō]

I have seen people with an efficient stroke do it in just over 4 minutes.

:no:

I have rarely run into anybody that swims 450 yards in just over 4 minutes, including college swim team members. IMHO, only the best college/Olympic 400 freestyle swimmers could swim 450 yards in 4:01-4:14, which is what I consider just over 4 minutes.

I was too slow to get a college scholarship in swimming. My best competitive stroke was breaststroke; I placed 9th or 10th in the 100 meter Breast at the Colorado State AAU Championships shortly after my 17th b-day (perhaps if I had done more than 2.5 months training per year). Shortly before my 18th b-day I "trained" a couple weeks and won the 50, 100 and 200 yard Free's in South Eastern Colorado's AAU Valley Championships; all of them qualify as flukes.

In the 100, I had a perfect start (read false start), three perfect flip turns (old school pike!) and won by two body lengths (probably 'cause the others all knew I false started and hesitated on the blocks). My time was ~1:00. My 200 time was probably around 2:15 (the favorite with 8 second better time in prelims broke his foot on a flip turn - finished second, but got a scholarship). A 400 yard free in under 4 minutes as a serious training 17 year old will result in a college scholarship. 450 yards in just over 4 minutes is in the realm of the Olympic Finals 400 swimmers.

In yards, the PADI requirement for 5 points is "less than 6 minutes." That is averaging just under 1:30 per 100 yards. This winter I "trained" for less than 10 days and managed ~5:55. That was my first swim training since that 2 week "wind sprint" training over 32 years ago. I am not trying to toot my own horn; I am trying to show how easy PADI is on DM's. I was not a good enough swimmer to get a college scholarship, have done no swim training for over 30 years and even on vacation at 7,200 feet above my residential elevation for the past 20 years (sea level - Los Alamos, NM) a 5 on the 400 only took 2 weeks of training.

450 yards in under 10 minutes sounds like a "reasonable bar" to me! Wish PADI would require similar, but that would seriously impact corporate and dive shop bottom lines. :shakehead:

[TMHeimer]

Disclaimer ... I scored a 5 on the 400 yd swim :D

While I don't think you should be required to score a 5 on the tests, I'm not a big fan of the fact that you can score a 1 on some of them and still pass. IMO it would better serve our future students if a 3 was the minimum passing score for any individual test. I believe that's consistent with 12 being a passing total score. There are 4 tests, with a total score of 12 being required to pass. Last time I checked, 12/4 was 3. I see no reason to not require at least a 3 on each test.

Sounds reasonable. If your swimming fundamentals are good enough to get a 2, with some work anyone should be able to get a 3. I would think that better than that is getting somewhat into the "competitive" swimmer range, but I'm no expert.

[tomfcrist]

In my Honest opinion, the swim test should be shorter and quicker. im not swimming 400 yards to rescue someone....Period! Sounds to me like im pulling anchor and doing a live boat rescue. If from shore, my mask and fins are going on. I think these tests are all nessecary, but only at the DM level. AI's, and Instructors shouldnt be far enough away from their students to have to worry about it.

[Divin'Hoosier]

In my Honest opinion, the swim test should be shorter and quicker. im not swimming 400 yards to rescue someone....Period! Sounds to me like im pulling anchor and doing a live boat rescue. If from shore, my mask and fins are going on. I think these tests are all nessecary, but only at the DM level. AI's, and Instructors shouldnt be far enough away from their students to have to worry about it.

What about swimming 200 yards to do a rescue .... but then you have to swim back and towing someone this time.

[Kingpatzer]

The tests as given demonstrate nothing of value precisely because they are happening in a pool - which is effectively ideal conditions.

Put the swims in OW, with moderate chop and some current. Then at least they're related to what a DM would be doing when such swims become necessary

[TMHeimer]

The tests as given demonstrate nothing of value precisely because they are happening in a pool - which is effectively ideal conditions.

Put the swims in OW, with moderate chop and some current. Then at least they're related to what a DM would be doing when such swims become necessary

Agree completely. Unfortunately without a 7 mil wetsuit that limits classes to 1 or 2 months a year here, and aside from the Tow, no wetsuits allowed.

[TMHeimer]

What about swimming 200 yards to do a rescue .... but then you have to swim back and towing someone this time.

I'm not doing it. That's one of my big points--It's fine to swim out, even 400 yards, but who's good enough to tow someone back without fins?

[TMHeimer]

In my Honest opinion, the swim test should be shorter and quicker. im not swimming 400 yards to rescue someone....Period! Sounds to me like im pulling anchor and doing a live boat rescue. If from shore, my mask and fins are going on. I think these tests are all nessecary, but only at the DM level. AI's, and Instructors shouldnt be far enough away from their students to have to worry about it.


Yes, use the boat or get the fins on. And what a great idea--a required shorter, quicker swim test. Very practical. I guess there's a slim chance you would actually do this for a rescue. I should've suggested that in my OP instead of eliminating the 400 completely, but I was too busy whining.

[Kingpatzer]

Agree completely. Unfortunately without a 7 mil wetsuit that limits classes to 1 or 2 months a year here, and aside from the Tow, no wetsuits allowed.

And considering that divers wear wet suits in even the most agreeable of locations (with a few rare examples of individuals choosing against the norm) that is yet another point against the utility of the tests.

[TMHeimer]

And considering that divers wear wet suits in even the most agreeable of locations (with a few rare examples of individuals choosing against the norm) that is yet another point against the utility of the tests.

When the ocean at our house cooled last Oct. I actually considered training for the swim in my 7 mil in lieu of driving the 100 miles to the pool. What folly that would've been.

[Ber Rabbit]

He was the record holder at our university in the 1600 I believe. My memory on his exact time is foggy, its been over 10 years ago. Time might have been 4:30 his advantage was how efficient his stroke was. I do remember he had enough time to do 2 tests in the allotted time because I asked if he would swim mine since he was already done. It was fast but effort wise he looked like he was swimming a warm up. I had never seen anything like it. I taught an OW class of swim team members a couple years ago and none of them swam like he did.
Ber

:no:

I have rarely run into anybody that swims 450 yards in just over 4 minutes, including college swim team members. IMHO, only the best college/Olympic 400 freestyle swimmers could swim 450 yards in 4:01-4:14, which is what I consider just over 4 minutes.

I was too slow to get a college scholarship in swimming. My best competitive stroke was breaststroke; I placed 9th or 10th in the 100 meter Breast at the Colorado State AAU Championships shortly after my 17th b-day (perhaps if I had done more than 2.5 months training per year). Shortly before my 18th b-day I "trained" a couple weeks and won the 50, 100 and 200 yard Free's in South Eastern Colorado's AAU Valley Championships; all of them qualify as flukes.

In the 100, I had a perfect start (read false start), three perfect flip turns (old school pike!) and won by two body lengths (probably 'cause the others all knew I false started and hesitated on the blocks). My time was ~1:00. My 200 time was probably around 2:15 (the favorite with 8 second better time in prelims broke his foot on a flip turn - finished second, but got a scholarship). A 400 yard free in under 4 minutes as a serious training 17 year old will result in a college scholarship. 450 yards in just over 4 minutes is in the realm of the Olympic Finals 400 swimmers.

In yards, the PADI requirement for 5 points is "less than 6 minutes." That is averaging just under 1:30 per 100 yards. This winter I "trained" for less than 10 days and managed ~5:55. That was my first swim training since that 2 week "wind sprint" training over 32 years ago. I am not trying to toot my own horn; I am trying to show how easy PADI is on DM's. I was not a good enough swimmer to get a college scholarship, have done no swim training for over 30 years and even on vacation at 7,200 feet above my residential elevation for the past 20 years (sea level - Los Alamos, NM) a 5 on the 400 only took 2 weeks of training.

450 yards in under 10 minutes sounds like a "reasonable bar" to me! Wish PADI would require similar, but that would seriously impact corporate and dive shop bottom lines. :shakehead:

[AndyNZ]

I haven't bothered to read all the thread, sorry - to be honest most changes that people recommend are often very specific to their own circumstances and poorly justified. It's kinda tough to make them applicable to a worldwide training organisation like PADI, particularly when you get resorts that don't have the same facilities and opportunities as dive shops etc.

Anyway, didn't really want to get in to that discussion!!!

PADI are changing the DM course this year, the new course is due for release Q3 - though in reality I suspect that will slip back into 2011 sometime. I've had some discussions with the PADI-AP about how the course could be revised and improved.

If anyone is really passionate about the DM course, then get in touch with your regional manager and/or your instructor development rep and make sure that PADI hear your thoughts.

[AndyNZ]

OK, I've taken some time to read the thread and point out some issues:




400 meter Swim:
Change: Eliminate it.
Reasons: <snip> On to DM: The chances a DM would ever have to swim at all without fins (let alone 400m) is negligible. <snip>

You've kind of missed the point. The purpose of the watermanship tests isn't anything to do with "the real world", it's about seeing whether candidates are comfortable in water, under a variety of conditions and provide some measure of fitness evaluation across multiple dimensions - speed, power, stamina etc.



15 minute Float:
Changes: 1. Make it an hour in the deep end without drowning (another poster's suggestion).

Pointless. You can tell with in 5 minutes whether someone can float/tread water - in reality, beyond that 5 minutes there is no point continuing the appraisal.



800 meter Mask, Fins and Snorkel Swim:
Changes: 1. Make it longer, maybe twice as long and adjust the times accordingly, as doing 1600 meters means you'd probably slow a lot more toward the end.

All your doing is changing the emphasis onto one aspect of the fitness evaluation, stamina.



I got a 3 yesterday and a 2 originally with no training at all. Maybe because my legs were in decent shape because I dive a lot. Whereas with the 400, which involves a combination of skills I could barely do 50 meters and conked out the first try.

So PADI should make the test that you found OK harder, and the test you failed to do should be gotten rid of? I don't see how the 400m swim involves a combination of skills - it's swimming.

If you couldn't swim 50m, you should have just been thrown out of the class. A PADI OW diver has to do 200m, so you've just said that you couldn't do a quarter of that......



2. Allow the use of arms. Not to make it easier, but because this is what you'd do to go out and rescue someone.

Again, it's not about real world. It's about evaluating comfort and fitness along multiple dimensions.


100 meter Tired Diver Tow:
Change: Make it longer, maybe twice as long, and adjust times accordingly, as you'd slow down toward the end. This test is very practical. It's a rescue technique. Distance in this test is more important than time, because it is a "tired diver tow", not a "diver in cardiac arrest tow".

The test is essentially a power test, as reflected in the times and the activity. If you make it longer, you are turning it into a stamina test. Given that you are wanting to change the snorkel test more towards stamina as well, you will only be evaluating a single fitness dimension.

Stamina is important, but it's not the only dimension of fitness. And it may not be the most important one.




This all makes sense to me. Some good input from all-keep 'em coming. Anyone have views on how I would change the 800, 100 and float?

What fitness dimension are you measuring, and what standard do you deem to be acceptable?




I'm of the opinion that dive professionals should be strong swimmers.

I agree, Jim - but you have to define "strong". For example, I am a very capable swimmer, regularly swim multiple km in the pool and during summer am out ocean swimming. But my "strength" is in stamina, I am not a fast swimmer (hence, I have no power).




Back to your original post. I would be very disappointed if PADI dropped the 400 yard swim requirement. I feel strongly that dive professionals should, as a prerequisite, be reasonably strong swimmers and possess above average stamina and fitness. How best to test those than to require a timed swim of moderate length?

Good. The 400m swim is integral to the watermanship evaluation. The combination of time and distance gives you an opportunity to evaluate power. But I don't think that 400m is enough to evaluate stamina. The snorkel swim attempts to do that, but it's aided. My thought would be to add an untimed 2km swim to evaluate stamina, then get rid of the "any time scores a 1" for the 400m swim and require faster times for each score 1-5.




The explanation I was given by my agency where we have to swim 450 yards in 10 minutes or less, it's pass/fail there's no point system grading.

Personally, I quite like the PADI points approach - it accommodates variation in individual ability and enables you to counsel DMTs on what they need to improve and how, without being punitive about it. I would like to see the current tests have a minimum time to pass rather than any time, as well as a higher pass mark overall.




While I don't think you should be required to score a 5 on the tests, I'm not a big fan of the fact that you can score a 1 on some of them and still pass.

You and me both.




The tests as given demonstrate nothing of value precisely because they are happening in a pool - which is effectively ideal conditions.

Put the swims in OW, with moderate chop and some current. Then at least they're related to what a DM would be doing when such swims become necessary

Again, I will say that the purpose of the evaluation has nothing to do with real life. It is up to the instructor to evaluate candidates on their fitness dimensions and counsel them after thinking about their shortcoming are.




Agree completely. Unfortunately without a 7 mil wetsuit that limits classes to 1 or 2 months a year here, and aside from the Tow, no wetsuits allowed.

Don't know who told you that. PADI standards allow people to wear exposure compensation, but they then must be weighted for neutral buoyancy. Maybe it's a facility rule to intimidate you, but it's definitely not a PADI standard.




And considering that divers wear wet suits in even the most agreeable of locations (with a few rare examples of individuals choosing against the norm) that is yet another point against the utility of the tests.

NULL argument based on inaccurate information.

[TMHeimer]

AndyNZ, Thanks for plodding through it all. In general, we disagree on what the purpose of the tests should be. I feel they should be geared toward basically rescue situations, as this is probably the most critical aspect of divemastering. You feel they should be a general assessment of fitness and comfortability in water (as I mentioned, I feel I have always been comfortable). Different philosophies, that's cool.

Re: the Float: Would you then recommend only 5 minutes and no hands out?

Re: my "50 meter" 400. This was the first try. After remembering that I was kicking WAY to fast, I slowed it down and then could do 200 meters the same day. I did not have to do 200 meters in OW as we did the 300 meter MFS, which I aced, so entering DM class I hadn't swam literally in 39 years, despite all the snorkelling and other sports. Had we had to do the 200, I would've had problems then also. After a month of training and sorting out my mechanical problems (stroke style, kicking, breathing, body "rolling", etc.-- these are the many aspects to swimming I'm talking about, whereas doing the 800 has to do basically with leg strength which you can develop diving, walking, etc., and type of fins) I was able to finish the 400. Then on the test I got a "3", which was better than a guy in my class of similar age who got a 2 on his 2nd try. Do you really think I should've been kicked out?

Re: exposure suit and neutral buoyancy for swim: My bad. I was sure I read somewhere you had to do the swim without any aids. As I seem to be really negatively buoyant, that may have helped me a lot. Maybe it was just a LDS policy.

[Ber Rabbit]

AndyNZ, my organizations approach allows you to counsel DMTs and instructor candidates easily. The goal is set at a reasonable level, we just have to work with the student to get their performance to the bar. No math aerobics needed to average where they are strong with where they are weak. They get the goals ahead of time so they know where the bar is. We coach as needed to help those who have trouble achieving the goals on their own. Meeting the goal is something to be proud of. The ones who have to work a little harder really get a sense of achievement. We don't give away the certifications, they earn them and some people work extra hard to do so.

Neither system is wrong, they are just different. No matter what your organization or for that matter, your sport; I think my bull riding instructor summed it up pretty well when he said, "Winners do the things losers aren't willing to do."
Ber

[RU4SKUBA]

I'd like to see some additional time spent with a number of Rescue scenarios, water safety instruction around pools and lakes, use of backboards and c-collars in various environments, more in-depth emergency action planning, dive skill evaluation beyond the 20 basic skills.

I would include free ascents/descents with references, buoyancy control at safety stop and bottom, alternative kick use and development, introduction to drysuits and DPVs, gear removal and mask drills while hovering, use of oxygen equipment, hazmat procedures, basic use of marine radio and coast guard procedures, trim dynamics and gear configurations, intro to technical diving, and care for different types of equipment.

Obviously these are things any dive op or instructor could include as amenities, but some of them I would consider fundamentals of a true professional.

[TMHeimer]

Incubus34, While these suggestions have little to do with the present Stamina Tests, I agree with all of them.

[raftingtigger]

OK, I'm going to stick my foot in my mouth here.

" rescue situations, as this is probably the most critical aspect of divemastering."

REALLY???
I thought as DMs we were supposed to keep this fun, safe, and AVOID needing to use our rescue skills. If divers under our charge need rescuing then we have probably already failed. Yes, there are circumstances that are beyond our control, divers who don't listen, etc. But that is rare. Day in and day out a DM uses their leadership/observation skills to prevent the need for rescue skills. That isn't to say you shouldn't know and BE PREPARED to use rescue skills, just that there is a LOT more to what I see as a Divemaster's job than being a lifeguard.

As we say in aviation: use your superior judgement to avoid needing superior skills.

So back to the topic of swimming skills. While I haven't read every post in this thread what I didn't see was advice to pick a swimming stroke that you can sustain. Its not how many total points you can get, it is can you get ENOUGH total in the 5 assessments. Nothing in the requirements I've read specifies WHICH stroke you must use.

When I did this assessment I hoped for a 5 in every task. Started with the treading water I got my 5, went on to the swim and knowing it was long picked my favorite stroke (breaststroke) and just cruised. It was quickly apparent that if I wanted a 5 I would have to 'kill' myself, so I settled for a 2. Did the 800 yd snorkel, cruised and again got a 2 (could have done a 3 if my feet had weights), cruised through the tired diver tow - while chatting - with a 3. That left the equipment exchange -- pure fun, my only problem - my buddy kept handing me the regulator back too soon. Did I do the very fastest I could? NO, but I did pass first time, doing all the requirements immediately following each other in one evening. So, here's a case of using superior judgement (knowing my limits) and avoiding a 'rescue' (tiring to the point of failure).

[TMHeimer]

[QUOTE=raftingtigger;5832154]OK, I'm going to stick my foot in my mouth here.

" rescue situations, as this is probably the most critical aspect of divemastering."

REALLY???
I thought as DMs we were supposed to keep this fun, safe, and AVOID needing to use our rescue skills. If divers under our charge need rescuing then we have probably already failed. Yes, there are circumstances that are beyond our control, divers who don't listen, etc. But that is rare. Day in and day out a DM uses their leadership/observation skills to prevent the need for rescue skills. That isn't to say you shouldn't know and BE PREPARED to use rescue skills, just that there is a LOT more to what I see as a Divemaster's job than being a lifeguard.

Well, you're right of course, but I think you're somewhat taking it out of context. Yes, a good DM will do his/her job and prevent most rescue scenarios from happening. But when something does happen, I think his rescue abilities are most important. I have talked with quite a few DMs and Instructors and most of them have used their rescue training in tight situations. Think we're just talking wording here.

[bracko]

I agree with none of your ideas.


1. the 400m swim is nothing other than a fitness requirement and proving you are fit and can swim. a dive professional should be reasonably fit and definitely should be able to swim a reasonable distance without the aid of fins.

2. a 1 hour "float" is stupid and favours unfit people who have a high fat content over fit people (especially men) who have a low fat content. the hands out of water at a guess is simulating someone who is tired and still has to kick out of the water to complete rescue breaths, unstrap gear or help get people into a tender... i.e. task loading at the end.

3. when have you had to snorkel a mile? when you're supervising at the surface most of the time you're barely moving. considering I nailed the snorkel with swimming fins, I'm down with it... however I think the 800 should stay, but requirement for open water, also perhaps a requirement to do the 400m swim, have no more than 3min rest then into the water for the 800m. if you need a higher score in one, you re-do both. as a side note... you're more than likely to be more efficient without the use of arms.

4. i notice you discuss something about turning around in the pool... try doing the tired diver tow in the ocean. I scored 4 (much closer to a 5 than 3) and i was by far the closest to puking after that than any other of the stamina tests.

it is my opinion that ALL the stamina skills should have to be repeated annually as an insurance requirement. Dive professionals need to be fit and active, if not for rescuing then to give students confidence that they can when required complete physically difficult tasks to potentially save a diver.

[TMHeimer]

I agree with none of your ideas.


1. the 400m swim is nothing other than a fitness requirement and proving you are fit and can swim. a dive professional should be reasonably fit and definitely should be able to swim a reasonable distance without the aid of fins.

2. a 1 hour "float" is stupid and favours unfit people who have a high fat content over fit people (especially men) who have a low fat content. the hands out of water at a guess is simulating someone who is tired and still has to kick out of the water to complete rescue breaths, unstrap gear or help get people into a tender... i.e. task loading at the end.

3. when have you had to snorkel a mile? when you're supervising at the surface most of the time you're barely moving. considering I nailed the snorkel with swimming fins, I'm down with it... however I think the 800 should stay, but requirement for open water, also perhaps a requirement to do the 400m swim, have no more than 3min rest then into the water for the 800m. if you need a higher score in one, you re-do both. as a side note... you're more than likely to be more efficient without the use of arms.

4. i notice you discuss something about turning around in the pool... try doing the tired diver tow in the ocean. I scored 4 (much closer to a 5 than 3) and i was by far the closest to puking after that than any other of the stamina tests.

it is my opinion that ALL the stamina skills should have to be repeated annually as an insurance requirement. Dive professionals need to be fit and active, if not for rescuing then to give students confidence that they can when required complete physically difficult tasks to potentially save a diver.



It's an endless debate with many opinions, but I'll comment on these:

1. Pretty much agree. The thing in question is what is a "reasonable" distance? Agree that a pro should be reasonably fit and able to swim. The two are not always directly related. "Fitness" vs. "swim fitness". You can be super physically fit and a lousy swimmer. The "can swim" part is obvious. Also agree that this has nothing to do with rescuing or anything other than just a swim test. Some say there are scenarios where swimming a long ways is directly related to scuba/divemastering. I continue to wait for that scenario.

2. Agree that you are generally correct about it favouring fat guys. But not always so--there are other factors affecting body buoyancy. My torso is positive, my legs sink like stones. I put forth the idea of the hour long float because it may be that you have to do that or more someday, regardless of your buoyancy. Re: the hands out--you are referring to "rescue" here, which is interesting--supporting somewhat my ideas that the tests should be related to rescuing?

3. OK, you'd never swim with mfs a mile, you'd move the boat or call 911. Except for the tow, you may never do any of this stuff. But since mfs swimming is how Rescue Class teaches you ("almost always have them handy"), I though it might say something about one's fitness to do this by making one do it longer. But I can live with just 800. Disagree completely about use of arms. I've tried using arms with fins-- you go like a rocket.

4. I would agree that doing the tow in the ocean is more practical than in a pool, but the tests for us are in a pool due to logistics. Again, in the ocean (or lake) makes sense to me because that is where you would be rescuing someone, not in a pool.

As far as having to do the tests annually I must agree completely. Doing the tests once to pass serves no purpose at all. It would be difficult for those of us with very cold ocean temps. and long distances to pools, but that would be our problem.

[SubMariner]

Just an FYI:

Confined water is not just a pool. It is ANY BODY OF WATER WITH POOL LIKE CONDITIONS.

So you can do any of the CONFINED WATER SKILLS in a lake, on a shore, etc.

As long as there aren't HUGE waves or poor vis, you can do any of those watermanship tests in places other than a pool.

We have in fact done things like swims or other watermanship skills in quarries, lakes, (etc) when doing other levels of training where DM was only one of those levels.

Gawd... I can't believe this thread was resurrected after a year & I got sucked into it. ;)



FWIW,

[TMHeimer]

SubMariner, Yes, we know that. In Nova Scotia you have maybe 2 months a year when you can even consider being in the water without a wetsuit for any length of time (yes, I know you can wear an exposure suit for the 400 if weighted for neutral buoyancy). Most divers here own a 7 mil wetsuit or drysuit--no good for swimming--no 3-5 mils or body suits, shorties (for pool use here only). As well, we have one shop basically for the whole province and the tests are always done at a pool. Unless the shop changes on this, that is our only choice. I wouldn't expect such a change due to scheduling of DM (and OW) courses and those other reasons. For all the stuff being discussed, you could just substitute (calm) "confined water" for "pool" anyway. The only real difference would be that I would imagine everything (especially the float) would be somewhat easier buoyancy-wise in salt water.

[MarineResearch]

If people want some true, real life fitness and stamina tests, perhaps PADI should consider skills like a 200 meter tank haul where candidates have to move 50 tanks from point A to Point B 200 meters away.

The PADI swim skills are on the easy side, but adequate to weed out candidates that lack some basic fitness skills. These skills may not have direct applications to being a DM, like fin removal, tank hauling and gear washing, but when combined present a good picture of a diver's physical abilities.

[TMHeimer]

If people want some true, real life fitness and stamina tests, perhaps PADI should consider skills like a 200 meter tank haul where candidates have to move 50 tanks from point A to Point B 200 meters away.

The PADI swim skills are on the easy side, but adequate to weed out candidates that lack some basic fitness skills. These skills may not have direct applications to being a DM, like fin removal, tank hauling and gear washing, but when combined present a good picture of a diver's physical abilities.


Yes, I would agree that the tests are adequate to weed people out. I suppose you could change them a number of ways and still achieve this. All kidding aside, your tbought about more practical other tests may have some merit. Obviously not hauling tanks, but other stuff a DM may be doing--boat proceedures, etc. This stuff is covered in the books, though. There may be some things on which testing may be of value. I like practical stuff.

[TSandM]

Funny, I didn't really think the swim tests in my DM class were about swimming. I thought they were about showing you had enough strength and stamina to assist people in general. I like having a swim test much better than having to run or stair climb to show fitness, because swimming is easier on the joints.

After hauling 7 people's worth of gear back and forth for five days for our class last week, I agree that a tank-moving stamina test would be a good one :)

[Thalassamania]

I think that they should be tested and retested at every level. I think that all staff at at leadership programs should be required to perform them along with the candidates and that any staff unable to do so should go home immediately.

[DBailey]

Personally, I think the tests are ok, but they need to get rid of the 12 point system. I had a DMC that got a 5 in the tread and a 5 in the tow. The DMC only had to finish the other two tests without regard to time for one point each.

Each stamina test should be you must do it in X minutes and Y seconds or less to pass.

[TMHeimer]

Personally, I think the tests are ok, but they need to get rid of the 12 point system. I had a DMC that got a 5 in the tread and a 5 in the tow. The DMC only had to finish the other two tests without regard to time for one point each.

Each stamina test should be you must do it in X minutes and Y seconds or less to pass.


That may be a good idea. You would figure that if a particular test was deemed important enough to include then you should be required to score a passing grade on it. Or at least a "3", whatever.

[Quero]

I would imagine everything (especially the float) would be somewhat easier buoyancy-wise in salt water.
Yes, the float is easier in salt water, but the swims and the tow are slightly harder, in my experience. I have DMTs swim around the boat 8 times for the 400, and there is always some tide, even if small, that adds to the fatigue. The 800 means picking a destination from shore that's about 400 meters away and doing an out-and-back snorkel. Generally, DMTs don't go perfectly straight when doing this (unless they think to wear a compass), so there is added distance/time that makes it more challenging. And for the tow, I usually have the DMT tow me back to the boat, and I do what a victim usually does to make it realistic--I lift my head (creates drag), or let myself turn face-down rather than working to stay on my back (creates task loading). One of my DMTs had an awful time with the 400 when little stingers near the surface of the water got to be a bother. So doing it in the ocean doesn't always mean making it easier, even in confined water conditions.



Gawd... I can't believe this thread was resurrected after a year & I got sucked into it. ;)

Me too. I've been resisting, but in the end succumbed!

[k ellis]

the swim is an important part of Open water and had it not been an option between the mask fins and snorkel or the swim I would not be diving today. When I started I could not swim even when I could touch the bottom. I could however snorkel.

In my quest for diving I unexpectedly picked up a love of the water and decided to take it a step further and learn to swim of which I am still no strong swimmer (I can swim all day but record breaker I am not)

My point on this is for the open water you should encourage people to be good swimmers but dont assume they wont learn on their own. For the Dive master course it is one of my week points earning me the least amount of points.

I think before someone automaticly shuts someone out for being an under achiever (Not a non achiever just under achiever) people should allow them the respect of working on their skills and not just being told simply if you cant swim dont apply. If they dont pass the current requirements then work with them so long as they are able to at least hit somewhere in the park (Again like me a swimmer I am but no power swimmer for time).

I say the requirements that are currently in use are excellent because they attract potential candidates not elite candidates.

[k ellis]

the swim is an important part of Open water and had it not been an option between the mask fins and snorkel or the swim I would not be diving today. When I started I could not swim even when I could touch the bottom. I could however snorkel.

In my quest for diving I unexpectedly picked up a love of the water and decided to take it a step further and learn to swim of which I am still no strong swimmer (I can swim all day but record breaker I am not)

My point on this is for the open water you should encourage people to be good swimmers but dont assume they wont learn on their own. For the Dive master course it is one of my week points earning me the least amount of points.

I think before someone automaticly shuts someone out for being an under achiever (Not a non achiever just under achiever) people should allow them the respect of working on their skills and not just being told simply if you cant swim dont apply. If they dont pass the current requirements then work with them so long as they are able to at least hit somewhere in the park (Again like me a swimmer I am but no power swimmer for time).

I say the requirements that are currently in use are excellent because they attract potential candidates not elite candidates.

Dang it LOL just caught that too!

[TMHeimer]

k ellis, I like your post. For one thing you point out that you could snorkel before you could swim. This points out the difference between using fins or not. It is odd that you snorkelled first--perhaps in very shallow water? Next you say that for diving you learned to swim, making my point that it is puzzling why anyone who couldn't swim would consider diving. Third you say basically that folks who need work to get to a standard should be cut some slack and given the help and time to do so. How is your DM class coming?

[k ellis]

k ellis, I like your post. For one thing you point out that you could snorkel before you could swim. This points out the difference between using fins or not. It is odd that you snorkelled first--perhaps in very shallow water? Next you say that for diving you learned to swim, making my point that it is puzzling why anyone who couldn't swim would consider diving. Third you say basically that folks who need work to get to a standard should be cut some slack and given the help and time to do so. How is your DM class coming?

Coming along great :) Let me respond to your post in order here LOL

First. I could not swim and found my fault was fear of drowning. I would not breathe the correct breathing pattern. I am naturally about as close to being neutral in the water as one can get. When I float I do got to do the egg beater but its not hard though with patience. The swim as I learned was more about my breathing. for this reason and my buoyance being naturally well balanced I have always been able to snorkle though I would choose to use a life vest in deep water. I did the snorkle though just fine as my confidence was high since I was able to breathe at all times.

Second As far as diving goes and swimming. With my natural comfort in water and the only real fear really hitting hard being the breathing it was a natural cinch that diving would be simple for me. I was very scared at first in fact I was scared as hell but I was proud and did not want to be seen as a sissy LOL. A man can live through all the trauma I have faced in life and in my career but he cant take a chance on swimming. So I decided to get in and give it a try and I was hooked. From that point on my desire to bond with the underwater world far out weighed my desire to not learn or attempt to learn to swim. I was slow to learn as I really felt no need to learn for the longest as I had all this gear (I know not the smartest thinking but hey you asked for the truth right?) I just woke up one day and decided I loved diving so much because I was in the water then I should learn swimming too. And it was from that point forward I started piecing ideas that worked together. Such as the breathing used for floating and started experimenting with ways to breathe while swimming coming up with a semi breast stroke at first and worked my way from there. Why would I want to dive and not be able to swim first? Why would an airline pilot choose to fly a jumbo jet and go to school for it when he has never even flown a kite? Some things are just natural for people and really there is no reason or rhyme why they turn out the way the do.

Third is the time and consideration factor. I do not believe in saying you cant swim so get out. I Believe every one of us who dive has a fear or a draw back somewhere in life. No one goes through life without some sort of fear and yet most people will find something in their life that gives them meaning and reason. When we were kids we were all afraid of the boogy man in the closet or the police when mom or dad would say to straighten up or they would arrest us. But because we decided to face that fear we met with someone who was patient to walk with us and guide us we not only learned to overcome those fears but also how to walk beside those fears daily and never give them a second thought! Honestly if you ask anyone who has been a dedicated instructor for a significant period of time most will tell you they at some point in their career found a student who was scared of some part of diving yet came in after conquering those fears and become a highly respected diver in the diving community. If no one would sit down and be patient with prospective divers and dive master candidates just think how many less there would be in the world!

[bracko]

Personally, I think the tests are ok, but they need to get rid of the 12 point system. I had a DMC that got a 5 in the tread and a 5 in the tow. The DMC only had to finish the other two tests without regard to time for one point each.

Each stamina test should be you must do it in X minutes and Y seconds or less to pass.

anyone who gets a 5 in the tow is most likely fit enough anyway.

but in principle i agree. you *should* have to get at least a 3 in every test, which was our instructors opinion. obviously he couldn't fail us for obtaining 12, but scoring a 1 or 2, however his comment was that we deserve a kick up the ass and to get fitter.

[k ellis]

anyone who gets a 5 in the tow is most likely fit enough anyway.

but in principle i agree. you *should* have to get at least a 3 in every test.

Thank goodness I passed when I did if it were to change that. I am a swimmer but I no power swimmer. I got less then a 3 on the swim test and yet I feel as confident as the next guy that I can do the task at hand. I got high marks on everything else just low on the swim.

[bracko]

if you're confident in the water and somewhat fit then 6-12 weeks of 'swimming for fitness' classes would ensure your got the required stroke technique training (and improved swimming fitness) to score a 5 or close to.

out of running, cycling and swimming... swimming is by far the most technical sport. in my peak of being unfit I could still towel someone over 50m (especially in a 25m pool) who was far fitter but not technically proficient.

[k ellis]

I had no issues with the tow and did quiet well with it. Like say its just I am not a fast swimmer. I got less then a 3 on the swim but I still passed. It would not be fair to tell me that even though I met the requirements I had to redo it until I could get a 3.

[TMHeimer]

We can debate this forever. The requirements are to get a 12 (15 now I think, as they have included the equipment swap in the bunch). If the requirements are too slack, it is up to PADI to change them. Swimming is a sport, diving (IMO) is not---it is an activity. A sport needs a competitive element, which swimming provides. Swimming and diving are distant cousins.

[k ellis]

We can debate this forever. The requirements are to get a 12 (15 now I think, as they have included the equipment swap in the bunch). If the requirements are too slack, it is up to PADI to change them. Swimming is a sport, diving (IMO) is not---it is an activity. A sport needs a competitive element, which swimming provides. Swimming and diving are distant cousins.

Thank you! I agree.

[jnowak100]

Scuba diving is one of the very few recreational sports in which both the trainee and trainer need some kind of training and certification, and there are others that hold greater risk. Think about hunting, skiing, boating, climbing, driving. I just completed my Dive Master Course, and start my IDC this weekend. And with just somewhat more that 100 dives and a few years, I have had many an "adventure" dive which has demonstrated the applicability of many of the "useless" skills and procedures. If anything were to be changed, I would suggest more skills practice and more lifesaving practices, more theory and more knowledge development, more fitness training. Or perhaps, divers should have many more logged dives, more experience and more specialties before starting the DM and IDC courses. But that will all come with time and experience, and just as my daughters spent a lot of time driving with dad before they went driving on their own, I expect to do a lot of diving with other DM's and a lot of teaching with other Instructors before I completely lead dives myself or teach an OW class myself.

[Thalassamania]

You can't have more, the authorities claim that it would destroy the diving industry as you know it, and it that would sure cut into what appear to be the ill-gotten gains from insurance premiums (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/scuba-related-court-cases/357560-padi-getting-sued-over-insurance-program.html).