BP/W BCD-I am puzzled

[impulse]

Hello,

Today I was at the diving school to discuss with my instructer, who is a technical diver and got lot's of technical equipment, the usability of the technical diving BCDs in recreational diving.

I asked him if I can use a BP/W BCD for double tanks with a single tank adapter in recreational diving. And he said, well you can use but it will be very hard to maneuver and to, for example, pass through a narrow entrance of some cave and etc. because it's so large. He added that, the lifting power of those wings for double tanks will be too much for you that it will be hard to acquire buoyancy. He also told there will be lots of drag because of the size of the wings for doubles. He showed me the technical BP/W BCD he uses for TRIMIX diving which was a DiveRite. He also showed me his tanks he just used a few days ago during a 420 fsw dive. He showed me that the tanks are secured to the tank via bolts (I think this type of securing is called STA?). And asked me, will you be able to unscrew these things each time you need to replace your tank during a recreational dive season? And I ofcourse said no it will be very tiring.

Than I asked him about the wings for singles and he told me, well those are not techical BCDs. They are just BCDs which are produced for commercial purposes. Do not buy a BP/W BCD for singles, instead buy a BCD for recreational diving. If you want to learn technical diving, than you must buy true technical equipment. Not a wing for singles. Do not use a technical BCD in rec diving.

I am really puzzled here. You guys here told me that it's possible a BP/W BCD for singles in rec diving but my instructor says it will be inconvenient.

Do you think that he is right? He sells both BP/W BCDs and rec BCDs, so he could not have commercial purposes.

Thank you.

[crosing]

Than I asked him about the wings for singles and he told me, well those are not techical BCDs. They are just BCDs which are produced for commercial purposes. Do not buy a BP/W BCD for singles, instead buy a BCD for recreational diving. If you want to learn technical diving, than you must buy true technical equipment. Not a wing for singles. Do not use a technical BCD in rec diving.

I am really puzzled here. You guys here told me that it's possible a BP/W BCD for singles in rec diving but my instructor says it will be inconvenient.

Do you think that he is right? He sells both BP/W BCDs and rec BCDs, so he could not have commercial purposes.

Thank you.


I'm not sure what to make of your post. It's really not that big of a deal to switch from doubles to singles with a BP/W set up. It is recommended to have a smaller wing for single and a larger wing for doubles. An STA is a single tank adapter that keeps the single tank securely mated to the backpack. Singles are attached using cambands where as doubles use a bolt and wing nut to secure to the Backpack.

In fact this is the simple beauty of having a modular BP/W set up where you can mix and match components to meet your diving needs.

That said, I ended up with two BP/W's one for doubles and one for single tanks.

I don't understand what you mean by commercial purposes. Is that referring to divers who do commercial underwater work like welding and so on?

[TSandM]

I really don't understand your instructor's point of view.

A backplate is a backplate, and the harness is the same, whether you are diving a single tank or doubles. Your instructor is right, as we have also said here on the board, that a doubles wing will not work well for you with a single tank. However, single tank wings work FINE.

As we discussed elsewhere, if you use a single tank with a backplate, you need something to stabilize the tank, and that can either be a wobble-stopper on the wing, or an STA. If you use an STA, it bolts onto the backplate, and the cambands run through it. There is no need to bolt and unbolt anything every time you dive -- you simply take the tank out of the cambands, as you would with any other BC. If you use a wobble-stopper wing, you don't bolt or unbolt anything, ever; the wing is sandwiched between the tank and the plate, the cambands run through the plate, and the cambands hold the tank tightly against the wobble-stopper.

I hate to say it, but it sounds as though your instructor might be hoping he can sell you a recreational BC and then sell you a plate and doubles wing later.

[Joe21]

Well I wouldnt buy any equipment from him or seek his advice anymore. I the hundreds of people on this board arent proof enough than I dont know what is.

[Joe21]

Wow two people posted in the 70 second it took me to write my last post.:rofl3:

[ONESPEED]

I really don't understand your instructor's point of view.


I do, he's probably trying to push what his shop sells, hence the "recreational" BCD.

[Gombessa]

The acronyms are a bit confusing at first, but let's parse it.


I asked him if I can use a BP/W BCD for double tanks with a single tank adapter in recreational diving.

First of all, a bp/w (backplate + wing) is a buoyancy compensator just like a typical recreational jacket or vest device, but to more easily distinguish between the two, most people call the former just "bp/w" and the latter "bcd." It's a bit confusing to call a backplate a "bp/w bcd."


And he said, well you can use but it will be very hard to maneuver and to, for example, pass through a narrow entrance of some cave and etc. because it's so large.

So, basically, what you asked is if you can use a backplate with a doubles wing with a single tank. The instructor's advice is generally sound--this is really non-ideal, though it is possible. Doubles wings do not perform well with a single tank - they'll be too big, and they'll wrap up around the tank like a taco shell, making it hard to stabilize and vent.


He showed me that the tanks are secured to the tank via bolts (I think this type of securing is called STA?). And asked me, will you be able to unscrew these things each time you need to replace your tank during a recreational dive season? And I ofcourse said no it will be very tiring.

You lost me here. I assume he showed you his doubles tanks? They're held together by bands, which are tightened down by bolts. You don't unscrew these. Typically, doubles stay as doubles, and if you move into them, you'll get another pair of tanks to keep as singles for your recreational diving.

An STA is a single-tank adapter. It's typically a steel channel that attaches to the backplate via wingnuts, and allows you to mount a single tank onto a backplate. Many of us use a bp/w with a singles wing and STA (and some singles wings do not require an STA), and it's no trouble to switch out single tanks between dives while using an STA.


Than I asked him about the wings for singles and he told me, well those are not techical BCDs. They are just BCDs which are produced for commercial purposes. Do not buy a BP/W BCD for singles, instead buy a BCD for recreational diving. If you want to learn technical diving, than you must buy true technical equipment. Not a wing for singles. Do not use a technical BCD in rec diving.

If your instructor is telling you to not get a bp/w for recreational diving, there are many who would disagree. While the typical jacket BCD is by far the most common, many people do use BP/W with single wings for all of their recreational diving, and there can be many benefits to doing so. The whole "should I use a bp/w for recreational diving" question is a big can of worms and you can find a lot of information about this on-going debate. But the best thing to do is to try a few dives with a jacket BCD, and a few dives with a singles bp/w (preferably with someone who dives this way and can answer your questions) and see which one you like.


I am really puzzled here. You guys here told me that it's possible a BP/W BCD for singles in rec diving but my instructor says it will be inconvenient.

It's possible, it's done, and it's a great device for singles diving. Many who dive BP/Ws don't go back to BCDs. I exclusively use BP/Ws for all my diving (tropical singles, cold water singles, cold water doubles) and love it. I'm sure you can articulate some downsides, but it really comes down to what you end up liking better. You're very lucky to have an instructor who teaches and sells both--I'd suggest asking him to set up a couple of dives where you can try both and see what you think.

Because a BP/W is modular (you can have one backplate with a singles wing and a doubles wing), I agree that your instructor does have a financial incentive to try to sell you a recreational BCD now, and a full technical BP/W with doubles wing later. I'm not saying his advice is financially motivated, but you should be aware that it exists. If you get a BP/W with singles wing now, chances are you can use the same rig for doubles diving later, all you'd need to do is buy the doubles wing (and not a whole new rig).

[parzdiver]

I have used a BP/W for single tank diving for the past year. I use a Halcyon, and you need the Single Tank Adapter to stabilize the tank, but many manufacturers, including Deep Sea Supply and Oxycheck have stabilizers build into the wings.

I am currently getting into more technical diving and have a separate wing for doubles (more lift and a different profile). I really don't understand your instructors statements, they make no practical sense. If you never wanted to remove your tanks from your backplate, you could have one BP/W setup for doubles, and one for singles. The Backplate and harness are the cheap part of the setup, it is the wing that is the most expensive part.

[boulderjohn]

I was confused by the explanation, and I am wondering if the instructor's points might have been misunderstood. (I hope they were.)

The part about not using a doubles wing with a STA is true enough. You don't want to use a doubles wing for single tank diving., but there is no reason not to use a singles wing with an STA for singles diving.

Now, I have an old back inflate BCD that I use for singles diving, but there is a good reason for that. I have only so much money to spend in my life, and I have many important purchases on the horizon. If I just use the old BCD for those (now rare) occasions for singles diving, then I don't need to spend any cash for a singles wing and STA. If I were to blunder into a singles wing and STA at a really good price,...

[crosing]

I noticed that the op appears to be from Turkey so it might just be a language thing.

[impulse]

Ok, thanks for your replies. I too was thinking about if his statements were based on some kind of financial benefit. I think you are right that he trys to sell me a recreational diving BCD now and a full set of technical diving BCD later, when I want to learn technical diving. So I am glad that I asked this question here before I buy any equipment.

Based on your statements, buying a BP/single Wing, will be a smart decision. If I move in technical diving I can just a buy a doubles wing, but if I do not move in, I can still use my BP/W set.

[impulse]

I noticed that the op appears to be from Turkey so it might just be a language thing.

That's right. I am from Turkey. Sorry if my English is incomprehensible. I am doing my best to communicate :)

[impulse]

..., but there is a good reason for that. I have only so much money to spend in my life, and I have many important purchases on the horizon.

Well, I am on a budget so I must spend for the equipment once and use it a long time.

[boulderjohn]

Based on your statements, buying a BP/single Wing, will be a smart decision. If I move in technical diving I can just a buy a doubles wing, but if I do not move in, I can still use my BP/W set.

Sounds like a good plan.

[boulderjohn]

Well, I am on a budget so I must spend for the equipment once and use it a long time.

That's exactly why I have kept the BCD for singles. As I noted above, buying a backplate, STA, and singles wing sounds like a good move if only because it will save you money down the road.

[impulse]

As we discussed elsewhere, if you use a single tank with a backplate, you need something to stabilize the tank, and that can either be a wobble-stopper on the wing, or an STA. If you use an STA, it bolts onto the backplate, and the cambands run through it. There is no need to bolt and unbolt anything every time you dive -- you simply take the tank out of the cambands, as you would with any other BC. If you use a wobble-stopper wing, you don't bolt or unbolt anything, ever; the wing is sandwiched between the tank and the plate, the cambands run through the plate, and the cambands hold the tank tightly against the wobble-stopper.

I hate to say it, but it sounds as though your instructor might be hoping he can sell you a recreational BC and then sell you a plate and doubles wing later.

Because English is not my native tongue I must clearly understand the terminolagy. Let me try to understand the terminolagy better, so that I will be able to ask better question to my instructor.

STA : The thing that holds two tanks togather
Camband : The belt that goes through the single tank adapter and hugs the tank so that it's secured on to the BP/W (so you do not need any bolt)
Wobble-stopper : The equipment that you use to better secure the tank so it
will not wobble. I think that's attached on to the camband? Is
that right?

Is it possible to use a camband without a single tank adapter? From your statement "...the cambands run through the plate.." I understand that it is possible.

Thank you.

[Teamcasa]

Ok, thanks for your replies. I too was thinking about if his statements were based on some kind of financial benefit. I think you are right that he trys to sell me a recreational diving BCD now and a full set of technical diving BCD later, when I want to learn technical diving. So I am glad that I asked this question here before I buy any equipment.

Based on your statements, buying a BP/single Wing, will be a smart decision. If I move in technical diving I can just a buy a doubles wing, but if I do not move in, I can still use my BP/W set.

Good plan.

[Teamcasa]

Because English is not my native tongue I must clearly understand the terminolagy. Let me try to understand the terminolagy better, so that I will be able to ask better question to my instructor.

STA : The thing that holds two tanks togather
Camband : The belt that goes through the single tank adapter and hugs the tank so that it's secured on to the BP/W (so you do not need any bolt)
Wobble-stopper : The equipment that you use to better secure the tank so it
will not wobble. I think that's attached on to the camband? Is
that right?

Is it possible to use a camband without a single tank adapter? From your statement "...the cambands run through the plate.." I understand that it is possible.

Thank you.

STA = Single Tank Adapter. It is bolted to your back plate and used to secure a single tank by the use of cam straps.

Some back plates do not require a STA when using it to dive singles. Some do.

[boulderjohn]

STA : The thing that holds two tanks togather


To expand on what Teamcasa said:

When you dive with two tanks, they are held together by steel bands. These bands have bolts through them. These bolts go through holes in your wing and your back plate to hold everything together.

If you are diving with a single tank, you don't have the tank bands with the bolts, so you have to find some other way to put everything together. Single Tank Adapters (STAs) are typically used. There are a number of different designs, but what they do is provide a replacement for the bolts that go through the tank bands on double tanks.

[impulse]

Thank you. So will all these be enough for a BP/W set that will be used with a single tank? I think 35 lb lifting will be enough. I am planing to order these...

Bladder : OMS Single Bladder without retraction bands 32 lb. lift (http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/OMSSB32.html)
Harness : OMS Harness with Quick Release only (http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/OMSHQR.html)
Backplate : Dive-Rite Aluminum Backplate (1034) (http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/DIV1034.html)
STA : Hollis Single Tank Adapter Bolt Kit (http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/HLSSTABK.html)

[Gombessa]

Thank you. So will all these be enough for a BP/W set that will be used with a single tank? I think 35 lb lifting will be enough. I am planing to order these...

Bladder : OMS Single Bladder without retraction bands 32 lb. lift (http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/OMSSB32.html)
Harness : OMS Harness with Quick Release only (http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/OMSHQR.html)
Backplate : Dive-Rite Aluminum Backplate (1034) (http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/DIV1034.html)
STA : Hollis Single Tank Adapter Bolt Kit (http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/HLSSTABK.html)

Most backplates will work with most wings, with the use of a single tank adapter. My only comment is that the STA you've listed (the Hollis) only includes the bolt kit, NOT the actual STA and cambands (x2) you'll need.

[impulse]

I see. So do you think that the back plate I listed will work with the wing I listed?

Or maybe I must order an OMS backplate. Because the bladder is OMS? Like this one : http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/OMSABP.html?Search=op%3ddtSearch%26Term%3doms%2bba ckplate%26SearchFlag%3dall%26AdvSrchSortField%3dRe levance%26DescSort%3d0%26Description%3don%26Hit%3d 1

[Gombessa]

I see. So do you think that the back plate I listed will work with the wing I listed?

Most likely. If you use an STA, everything (plate, wing, STA) lines up with two 11" spaced holes down the center, so mixing brands isn't too big of a deal. However, if you're not using an STA, then there are differences you have to pay attention to (camband slot spacing, mainly). There may be some other issues, but that's the problem with buying piecemeal.

I added up the prices of what you've listed, and once you add the STA and cambands, you're looking at spending about $470. For less than that, you might consider going with a full package that was made to work together as a complete system - check out the Deep Sea Supply package configured as such:

Single Tank Rig w/ Medium Stainless Steel plate, Hogarthian Harness, Torus 26, Full Circle Style Single Tank Wing
https://www.deepseasupply.com/index.php?&page=rig_configurator

DSS rigs are fantastic, and do not require an STA. Plus, the owner, Tobin, is readily available here to answer any questions you may have and make sure you're outfitted with the best (not most expensive) equipment for the type of diving that you do. I'm not in any way affiliated with them, but I do like their products.

Best of luck!

[Teamcasa]

I see. So do you think that the back plate I listed will work with the wing I listed?

Or maybe I must order an OMS backplate. Because the bladder is OMS? Like this one : OMS 2 lb. Aluminum BackPlate Only (BP-020) (http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/OMSABP.html?Search=op%3ddtSearch%26Term%3doms%2bba ckplate%26SearchFlag%3dall%26AdvSrchSortField%3dRe levance%26DescSort%3d0%26Description%3don%26Hit%3d 1)


Here's what I use. Apeks Products (http://www.apeks.co.uk/products/product_cats_results.asp?Product=WTX%20Harness&Category=Buoyancy%20Control)

The harness works perfectly for recreational diving with a single tank - no adapters needed, just add a wing of your choice. I use a 30lb DiveRite Venture. A Steel plate can be added to the system very easily if or when you want to dive doubles.

Some will boo hoo the harness as too complicated but so be it, I love it.

[Guy Alcala]

Most likely. If you use an STA, everything (plate, wing, STA) lines up with two 11" spaced holes down the center, so mixing brands isn't too big of a deal. However, if you're not using an STA, then there are differences you have to pay attention to (camband slot spacing, mainly). There may be some other issues, but that's the problem with buying piecemeal.

I added up the prices of what you've listed, and once you add the STA and cambands, you're looking at spending about $470. For less than that, you might consider going with a full package that was made to work together as a complete system - check out the Deep Sea Supply package configured as such:

Single Tank Rig w/ Medium Stainless Steel plate, Hogarthian Harness, Torus 26, Full Circle Style Single Tank Wing
https://www.deepseasupply.com/index.php?&page=rig_configurator

DSS rigs are fantastic, and do not require an STA. Plus, the owner, Tobin, is readily available here to answer any questions you may have and make sure you're outfitted with the best (not most expensive) equipment for the type of diving that you do. I'm not in any way affiliated with them, but I do like their products.

Best of luck!

You type faster than I do, Kenn:) I'd just gotten finished putting that very link into my post, after making the same points. Given that he's in Turkey, he might want to go with a Kydex plate instead of the S/S one, depending on the water temperature and what tanks he's going to use. But I'm sure Tobin will guide him through that decision process.

Guy

[impulse]

Thanks for replies.

I asked my insturcor about deepseaseasupply products. He said that, I would not use their product because they tailor. He pointed out that the only good techincal diving equipment producers are DiveRite and OMS. Why would he said that? Thank you.

[Teamcasa]

Thanks for replies.

I asked my insturcor about deepseaseasupply products. He said that, I would not use their product because they tailor. He pointed out that the only good techincal diving equipment producers are DiveRite and OMS. Why would he said that? Thank you.

He would be dead wrong. DSS makes some of the finest dive gear on the planet.

[Gombessa]

Thanks for replies.

I asked my insturcor about deepseaseasupply products. He said that, I would not use their product because they tailor. He pointed out that the only good techincal diving equipment producers are DiveRite and OMS. Why would he said that? Thank you.

Sorry, I don't know what you mean by "tailor" here?

I don't say this often, but your instructor is highly opinionated and/or highly uninformed, and I'm willing to bet everyone reading this thread would agree. There are many, many excellent manufacturers of technical diving equipment. Dive Rite and OMS both make good gear. So do Deep Sea Supply, Halcyon, Oxycheq, Agir-Brokk, Edge/HOG, Hollis, etc.

Your instructor may have reasons why he prefers the brands he does, but saying that the others do not produce good technical diving equipment would demand some significant explanation.

[boulderjohn]

Your instructor may have reasons why he prefers the brands he does, but saying that the others do not produce good technical diving equipment would demand some significant explanation.

I agree. I feel pretty darn good about almost all the technical gear I have, and I own one item from Dive-Rite and nothing from OMS.

I think every company that Gombessa mentioned is represented in the group with which I dive, including me, and I don't hear a lot of complaints.

In fact, I know people who steer clear of both Dive-Rite and OMS because they feel their products are not as good as some others.

I suggest you read through the ScubaBoard equipment forums to see what others have said about different brands.

[impulse]

I do not think that he is uninformed. Maybe he says that because he sells OMS and DiveRite products. Or maybe he had some unpleasent thing with other brands. I am not sure. I could not discuss this with him because I do not have any proper knowladge. I even am not sure about how to set up a nice BP/W to use with singles. There are numerous brands and numerous types of harnesses, backplates, wings, etc... So based on your statement, which one to buy is I think a personal choice not a quality concern. Right? Do you think that DSS products are as good as OMS or DiveRite products?

[Teamcasa]

Do you think that DSS products are as good as OMS or DiveRite products?
Yes, and more.

DSS makes quality gear and backs it up with good customer service. Tobin, the owner frequently post here as well.

[boulderjohn]

I do not think that he is uninformed. Maybe he says that because he sells OMS and DiveRite products. Or maybe he had some unpleasent thing with other brands. I am not sure. I could not discuss this with him because I do not have any proper knowladge. I even am not sure about how to set up a nice BP/W to use with singles. There are numerous brands and numerous types of harnesses, backplates, wings, etc... So based on your statement, which one to buy is I think a personal choice not a quality concern. Right? Do you think that DSS products are as good as OMS or DiveRite products?

I think DSS products are just fine, and I am sure that your instructor's opinion is based solely on the fact that he sells Dive-Rite and OMS.

Now, there may be some politics you want to deal in. Are you absolutely sure you want this instructor to be your tech instructor? If so, realize you will be working with him for a long time, and you will want him to be as cooperative as possible. You will want him to hep you with equipment setup to start with. You want a good relationship.

In that case, it might be wise for you to purchase through him. It might be a smart move even if it costs you a little more.

[Gombessa]

I could not discuss this with him because I do not have any proper knowladge. I even am not sure about how to set up a nice BP/W to use with singles.

Well, you're taking the right steps here. Also, you should definitely take the time you have with your instructor to learn as much as you can, and also to challenge him to further explain issues to which you haven't received a complete or satisfactory answer. It's your money, you should get what you pay for, right? :)


Do you think that DSS products are as good as OMS or DiveRite products?

DSS is easily as good. I would not hesitate for a second to buy from them.

[fisheater]

DSS rigs are top notch. They have a well thought out design, are superbly made and use quality materials. The only place where DSS fails is in mass marketing. They don't do it, because they are small and make their own gear (as opposed to slapping their name on stuff made under contract by some anonymous factory).

Last week I had the opportunity to tour the DSS factory. The amount of effort they put into making sure that their products are exact is very impressive.

[impulse]

I think DSS products are just fine, and I am sure that your instructor's opinion is based solely on the fact that he sells Dive-Rite and OMS.

Now, there may be some politics you want to deal in. Are you absolutely sure you want this instructor to be your tech instructor? If so, realize you will be working with him for a long time, and you will want him to be as cooperative as possible. You will want him to hep you with equipment setup to start with. You want a good relationship.

In that case, it might be wise for you to purchase through him. It might be a smart move even if it costs you a little more.

Yes I want this instructor to be my tech instructor. Infact I like him. He knows that I am on a budget and really helps me about payments and makes discounts for me. He sometimes gives me the equipment I need and do not want any money. I pay him when I want. So it's based on trust. You are right that I need a good relationship. So do you think that I must not order from internet and buy the equipment I want through him? Hmmm I think that you are absolutely right. When he sees that BP/W purchased from another source, he wont feel nice. I will think about that, thank you.

[boulderjohn]

Yes I want this instructor to be my tech instructor. Infact I like him. He knows that I am on a budget and really helps me about payments and makes discounts for me. He sometimes gives me the equipment I need and do not want any money. I pay him when I want. So it's based on trust. You are right that I need a good relationship. So do you think that I must not order from internet and buy the equipment I want through him? Hmmm I think that you are absolutely right. When he sees that BP/W purchased from another source, he wont feel nice. I will think about that, thank you.

I am buying almost all of my tech equipment through my shop, even if I can get it a little cheaper somewhere else. The only exception is for things they don't sell, like cave reels. The shop has been very good to me and my need to practice, store gear, etc. I feel I owe them something in return.

If I were you, I would feel very awkward going to my instructor and saying something like, "I really appreciate how good and helpful you have been to me. I have one more favor to ask. I just bought this equipment over the Internet instead of from you. Could you please show me how to put it together? And then can we talk about the schedule when you will show me how to use it?"

[halocline]

Ok, thanks for your replies. I too was thinking about if his statements were based on some kind of financial benefit. I think you are right that he trys to sell me a recreational diving BCD now and a full set of technical diving BCD later, when I want to learn technical diving. So I am glad that I asked this question here before I buy any equipment.

Based on your statements, buying a BP/single Wing, will be a smart decision. If I move in technical diving I can just a buy a doubles wing, but if I do not move in, I can still use my BP/W set.

I think you've got the right idea!

It always troubles me when a salesman and a teacher are the same person. Gear "education" can easily become a sales pitch. If you have recounted your instructor's comments accurately, he is clearly trying to steer you in a particular direction and is not really answering your basic and appropriate questions. To me this does not speak well for him as an instructor. However, please take that comment with a grain of salt, because I wasn't there to hear what he said exactly.

[carrielsal]

That's right. I am from Turkey. Sorry if my English is incomprehensible. I am doing my best to communicate :)

Your English is a million times better than our Turkish.

[impulse]

An hour ago, I called my instructer and told him that I changed my mind about buying a recreational diving BCD and instead would like to buy a BP/W system for singles. He really got puzzled and asked me, what made you change your mind, (hehe..grin..never told him about you guys here) I said, well I like those technical stuff much more than the plastic looking recreational diving stuff :p. And he kept on saying, it will be hard for you to use a wing system for even singels. I told, but at least it will be smaller than the wing for doubles, he started his statement as "but..." and I intervened kept on saying, and it will be looking nice. He continued,...but it will still be bigger than a recreational diving bcd, it will be hard for you to stabilize the tank even by means of an STA. It will also be hard for you to control your balance on the surface of the water. But I insisted and wanted him to tell me the prices for a BP/W set for singles. He at last said, oh ok, if you say so. If you want a system like that, I will sell you one. It will cost you around 450$-500$. I think that's a good price to buy from him ;).

Do you think that it will really be hard for me to stabilize my balance on the surface of the water? I once read somewhere that, back inflated BCD's effects your balance and you fell on the surface of the water on your face. In that writing I read, there was also written that, in the event of an emergency, those back inflated bcd are dangerous, because it keeps pushing your face into the water. Will the BP/W system have the same problem?

Thank you.

[halocline]

This guy is feeding you a line, or he does not know some pretty basic stuff about dive gear. Either way, I would start looking for a new instructor. The quality of tech instruction is pretty important.

Regarding the wing size, if all he sells are OMS and dive rite wings, many of those are bigger than they need to be for single tanks. Personally I would avoid OMS gear altogether. OMS has a horrible reputation for customer service, and since there are so many other excellent choices, there's no reason to risk having a problem. Dive rite has great customer service, as does DSS and oxycheq. The only dive rite wing appropriate for single tank use is the travel wing, and even with that you have to be a little careful. Dive rite went through a phase where the travel wing was a huge square; thankfully this passed quickly and now they have the travel EXP, which is a nice wing. The venture wing is too big; who knows what dive rite was thinking with that one. Ironically, it used to be a nice small wing, then they super-sized it.

Try a place called caveadventurers.com. They could sell you an oxycheq mach V wing with a steel plate and hogarthian harness for around $350 (a guess) and you'd have a very nice single tank set up. The mach V wing does not need a STA. You could probably get an even better deal if you bought a doubles wing at the same time; then you'd have both. You'll have to investigate shipping and import tax to Turkey, though.

Good luck!

[SangP]

Yes I want this instructor to be my tech instructor. Infact I like him. He knows that I am on a budget and really helps me about payments and makes discounts for me. He sometimes gives me the equipment I need and do not want any money. I pay him when I want. So it's based on trust. You are right that I need a good relationship. So do you think that I must not order from internet and buy the equipment I want through him? Hmmm I think that you are absolutely right. When he sees that BP/W purchased from another source, he wont feel nice. I will think about that, thank you.

If you really like him then by all means support him but if you're buying from him to keep him nice, then something's wrong.

When I first read your initial post I was surprised that you were told a bp/w cannot be used for single tank and doubles. I'm even more surprised that he's saying you're going to have problems on the surface n balance with a single's setup. Something doesn't add up.

It may be difficult at first but once you get your weighing right, it becomes almost an extension of you. Unless you over inflate the wing on the surface you are not going to fall face first, inflate it enough till you are comfortably above the water n stop.

I have nothing against OMS but there are cheaper n better equipment out there.

Your call,

SangP

[TSandM]

Back inflate BCs can push you forward, if you inflate the bladder completely and the BC rides up on your back at all. A properly adjusted backplate and harness, however, has a crotch strap that keeps the bladder down on your back. Because I like my face out of the water, I regularly inflate my wing (both on singles and doubles) until the OPV pops. I have never had my face pushed into the water -- in fact, it's extremely easy to lean back and rest.

I'm with the rest of the crew. The more you tell us about what this "tech instructor" is saying to you, the more worried I become about whether he really knows very much.

[impulse]

Well, I am really not sure about his level of knowladge in terms of equipment. Maybe he knows alot maybe not. Maybe he has some kind of financial benefit if I buy a rec BCD or maybe he has not. He is really hard to decode.

I am not sure but If he did not know about technical diving, he would not be able to dive 420 fsw and end the dive without any decompression sickness. I watched his dive on the television so he could not be lying.

So I think he has knowladge about a tech diving but trys to manuplate me buying a conventional rec bcd to aquire more money from me. I am puzzled here. I will talk about this further with him.

[dbulmer]

Impulse,

A good technical instructor should know about equipment - I suspect that your instructor does not carry the equipment that you want in his shop. Ask the instructor if he could order the equipment for you and show you how to set it up.

If he's unwilling to do that for you, then change your instructor. A tech instructor can setup a BP/W in minutes and this should be very easy. If the instructor is not willing to help you then I would question his value as an instructor. The good instructors both recreational and technical want their students to remain as students partly because it makes good business sense but also because they enjoy teaching and want to see their student progress.



The advice you've been given here on Scubaboard is correct

[dbulmer]

And one other point - the instructor is a human being - he eats, drinks, sleeps and farts like everyone else .. at least when he's not in the water.

[Blue982]

Just so we have it all in one place I made this glossary.

Camband (http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/9278/camband.jpg): The strap(s) that wrap around a single tank to attach it to any style of BC. They can be used with or without a STA and with or without a wobble stopper (notable exception is some newer Halcyon wings, which require a STA). These come with delrin (plastic) or stainless steel buckles.

STA aka Single Tank Adapter (http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/4899/staxm.jpg): A device that stabilizes a single diving cylinder on a backplate and wing (BP/W) style buoyancy compensator (BC or BCD). The STA is bolted to the backplate and cambands loop through it and around a tank. Not a required item, but nice to have. Some have lead integrated into it so that you don't have to wear quite so much on a belt.

Wing (http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7591/wingq.jpg): The air bag in a BP/W system that allows you to control buoyancy.

Wobble-stopper (http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1614/wobblestopper.jpg): A style of single tank adapter (STA) that is integrated into the wing of some BP/W. Usually very low profile. I know DSS and HOG wings include these but I don't know about other manufacturers. Note in the image the wobble stopper is outlined in red, as it is difficult to see.

Tank Bands (http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/8629/tankbands.jpg): Stainless steel bands that connect a pair of tanks together when wearing two on your back. These bands bolt directly to the backplate (similar to how a STA attaches one tank) and eliminate the need for cambands. Also see: tank bands assembled (http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/8130/doublesassembled.jpg).


Thanks to Precision Diving (http://precisiondiving.net/) for some images.

[impulse]

Just so we have it all in one place I made this glossary.

Camband (http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/9278/camband.jpg): The strap(s) that wrap around a single tank to attach it to any style of BC. They can be used with or without a STA and with or without a wobble stopper (notable exception is Halcyon wings, which require a STA). These come with delrin (plastic) or stainless steel buckles.

STA aka Single Tank Adapter (http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/4899/staxm.jpg): A device that stabilizes a single diving cylinder on a backplate and wing (BP/W) style buoyancy compensator (BC or BCD). The STA is bolted to the backplate and cambands loop through it and around a tank. Not a required item, but nice to have. Some have lead integrated into it so that you don't have to wear quite so much on a belt.

Wing (http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7591/wingq.jpg): The air bag in a BP/W system that allows you to control buoyancy.

Wobble-stopper (http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1614/wobblestopper.jpg): A style of single tank adapter (STA) that is integrated into the wing of some BP/W. Usually very low profile. I know DSS and HOG wings include these but I don't know about other manufacturers. Note in the image the wobble stopper is outlined in red, as it is difficult to see.

Tank Bands (http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/8629/tankbands.jpg): Stainless steel bands that connect a pair of tanks together when wearing two on your back. These bands bolt directly to the backplate (similar to how a STA attaches one tank) and eliminate the need for cambands. Also see: tank bands assembled (http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/8130/doublesassembled.jpg).


Thanks to Precision Diving (http://precisiondiving.net/) for some images.

That's great. Thank you very much. I was still unsure what a wobble-stopper is but that image of it cleared all the questions. :)

Tank bands were the parts I saw on his doubles. He showed me that when I wanted to buy a BP/W for the singles and told me about the bolts. I now start to better understand how elusive how he acts and now after those images, his statements started to make no-sense at all. I think he is not trying to really help me about this BP/W thing. Thanks for teaching me those stuff. You guys here really illuminated me about the subject better than the so-called techical instructor. This is really weird.

By the way, I talked to my instructor again about attaching the tank to a BP/W type BCD and he said, that types of attachement do not stabilize the tank well enough that it still moves from one side to the other.

I am sure that you will say, noo your instructor is wrong. I feel pathetic abou my technical diving future... :S

Maybe I must go Dahab and take my tek diving class there..Hehe..

[fisheater]

There's a VERY impressive video on the Deep Sea Supply site showing how stable a tank is with their "wobble stoppers."

Check it out.

[TSandM]

I use DSS wings with wobble-stoppers, and the tank does not move. I have dived everything from Aluminum 80s (I think you call them 12Ls) to steel 130s, which are big, heavy tanks. An STA is, if anything, even more secure. Your instructor has clearly never used a BP/W single tank setup.

[Guy Alcala]

Just so we have it all in one place I made this glossary.

Camband (http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/9278/camband.jpg): The strap(s) that wrap around a single tank to attach it to any style of BC. They can be used with or without a STA and with or without a wobble stopper (notable exception is Halcyon wings, which require a STA). These come with delrin (plastic) or stainless steel buckles.


I guess that's true for the Eclipse wings but not for the older Pioneers, as I've been using my Pioneer 36 (bought used) for 2+ years with just the cambands. I hadn't noticed that the Eclipse didn't have camband slots. It may be that my tank wobbles a bit and I'm unaware of it, but it's never been an issue. Maybe I just don't know what I'm missing, but for me the STA would be primarily a convenience issue, if I was regularly switching back and forth between singles and doubles using the same plate.

Guy

[SangP]

There are a lot of wings that don't have inbuilt stabilizers like the eclipse, older oxycheq and so needs an sta. This doesn't make them any worse off as mini sta from Oxycheq gives a bit more adjustments as you can change the direction of it and increase or lower the height of the cam bands.
http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=OxyCheq_Mini_Single_Tank_Ada pter

I designed this travel plate and made more slits and mounting holes along the spine to allow a greater range of adjustments.

My advice would be to get the bp/w from places like scubatoys or some of the other board supporters and dive with the instructor. That way you can see for yourself how good he is and if he sucks you didn't waste your money and if he's really good you can take more classes from him..

SangP

[peterbj7]

You guys here told me that it's possible a BP/W BCD for singles in rec diving but my instructor says it will be inconvenient

I absolutely agree with him. I haven't read any of this thread other than your opening post, and I have no doubt I'll be shot down by the usual suspects just as has happened before, but use the right gear for the job. You CAN use a backplate and wing with a single tank, but assuming you don't buy a specially small one just for use with a single tank and you actually get a bigger one that you can use with doubles, you will indeed find it clumsy, and possibly difficult to get air out of (depends on the design of wing, but it's often the case).

Just my view of course, but one apparently shared by your own instructor (whose views I imagine you respect?). My own credentials are that I have been using wings for 12+ years, sometimes with a backplate but more often with a soft harness such as the DiveRite Transpac), and I've been a tech instructor and deep trimix diver for 8 years. There are some vociferous people who will espouse the use of a backplate and wing for all diving, even basic students in training. No doubt some have posted here. I don't agree with them.

[peterbj7]

Your instructor has clearly never used a BP/W single tank setup.

Just spotted this, from an old favourite. Unless you know the instructor has not used this setup your statement is outrageous, and shows your automatic bias against anyone not agreeing with your view that a "BP/W" (horrible term) is the answer to everything. I have done quite a few dives with the setup you are suggesting, probably >30, and I've dived with lots of people using the setup. I don't like the arrangement.

[Gombessa]

Unless you know the instructor has not used this setup your statement is outrageous, and shows your automatic bias against anyone not agreeing with your view that a "BP/W" (horrible term) is the answer to everything.

IMHO, this doesn't follow. The ability of an STA/wobble stopper to keep a tank firmly strapped against the rig is more or less quantitative, you can demonstrate and prove it, and as TS&M has stated, it's incredibly secure, vis-a-vis a jacket BC (which if you think about it, uses essentially the same mechanism). It's highly likely that anyone who claims otherwise simply has not used the setup, or has not set it up correctly (or possibly has used an unusually ineffective or broken version). To me, it doesn't display a bias at all against a non-bp/w view.


I don't like the arrangement.

That's fine, and if the instructor in question doesn't like it either, that's also fine. But to claim that an STA/wobble-stopper is incapable of securing a tank to the rig, is quite simply, and measurably, incorrect.

[BB1]

My experience of BP/W

I bought my first BCD after 19 dives and it was a DSS Long Stainless Plate with HOG harnes and Taurus 26 wing for single tank diving.

It was the best move I ever made. 14 dives in 6 days in Fiji confirmed that! Tank doesn't move about on me, feel free of squeeze, excess lead and jacket BCD riding up.

Try what you want to is my advice - I loved the BP/W but you may not.

[Kern]

I use DSS wings with wobble-stoppers, and the tank does not move. I have dived everything from Aluminum 80s (I think you call them 12Ls) to steel 130s, which are big, heavy tanks. An STA is, if anything, even more secure. Your instructor has clearly never used a BP/W single tank setup.

It depends on the working pressure. eg.

10lt x 232 bar = 2320lt. approximately 80cft
12lt x 232 bar = 2784lt. approximately 100cft

10lt x 300bar = 3000lt. approximately 105cft. Not to say they don't exist, but I'v never seen a 300 bar aluminium tank.

[halocline]

Just spotted this, from an old favourite. Unless you know the instructor has not used this setup your statement is outrageous, and shows your automatic bias against anyone not agreeing with your view that a "BP/W" (horrible term) is the answer to everything.

First of all, nobody said that a "BP/W is the answer to everything"

What was said by the OP's technical instructor were several mis-statements and falsehoods about single tank diving and BP/W set ups. This would easily lead someone to believe that the instructor was simply not familiar with this type of set up.

It's amazing to me how defensive people get in this perpetual discussion.

[TSandM]

The OP went into a shop and requested to buy a backplate and wing system. The instructor in the shop has given him some misinformation about the equipment. That this is misinformation is provable, and someone has already given a video link that shows it. I stand by my statement that someone who does not believe a tank can be held securely on a backplate has little or no experience with single tank rigs.

I did not anywhere say that a backplate system is the be-all and end-all of recreational rigs. But the OP wants one, and he's being misled. I think that needs to be clarified, and I find a technical instructor who is providing this misinformation to be worrisome.

[impulse]

Thanks to everyone for all the posts you send. I think this is enough debate on this particular topic :) I learned alot from this thread and glad that I stareted it. See you later on another thread. :)

[Q1988]

I use both depending on where I am diving. Warm water Carribean with a wetsuit and possibly waiting around on the surface for the boat then the BCD is best as it is better to keep your face out of the water. The wing on your back and no other bouyancy is not fun.

In the cold water and with a dry suit on then the wings are the best. They sort of let you hang from your perfect trim while the bcd tries to bouy you from under which is not good.

Doubles and dry suit need a double wing but I have loads of lift with my single 130, diverite venture (27lb lift) and wet suit. Some guys tell me that if your in a dry suit you do not need a wing but remember to bring along your lift bag.

Cheers.