Diver ability rankings beyond C-cards..

G'day guys, I belong to a university underwater club that operates in Melbourne, Australia, we are reasonably active and have quite a strong membership base due to the low costs we offer for diving (we have our own boats, air compressor, gear for hire as well as well as club based instructors who offer discount courses.)

Before I joined up I was going through a commercial dive store paying $US40 for a days hire of gear (bcd+tank+regs+air+wetsuit+weightbelt) and $US20 per chartered boat dive, now with the uni club gear hire (bcd+tank+regs+air+wetsuit+weightbelt) is $US15 for a week, and $US5 per boat dive.

I own all my own gear now anyway so diving is rather cheap

One problem the club has come across recently is that cert. cards alone are not enough to determine a persons ability to complete certain dives, as an example my dive buddy got certified in Thailand and had around 10 dives under his belt and then dived with the club in 60 degrees Fahrenheit water for the first time on a 100 feet wreck with low viz. (a situation not often a problem when diving in season in Thailand.)

Everyone agreed later it wasen't appropriate however no-one wanted to be the one to say 'sorry your not experienced enough for this dive yet.'

-The dive was fine and no problems arose but due to the club having alot of inexperienced OW and AOW divers and alot of challenging dives in the area we need a set of standards to dictate what level a diver is beyond their cert card. Especially since the temp. has now dropped to 52f. :wacko:

I was wondering if anyone has a charter company or dive club in their area with a set of guidelines on what experience a diver needs to dive a given dive site/dive depth.

One charter company in the area uses the following guidelines and I wanted to see if they are more stringent or approx. on par with other dive groups. Anyone with any feedback would be appreciated, I'll be bringing this up at our general meeting this Thursday night. -cheers

Victorian dive site levels are based on acceptable surface and current conditions
throughout the duration of the dive excursion.

1. Scuba Diving on Compressed Air

a) Level 1 (1-11m) (3-40 feet)

i. Divers shall be at least Open Water certified

OR

if trained outside Victoria, be at least Open Water certified
and should have completed Area Orientation.

ii. To retain a current Level 1 rating, divers shall have completed
and logged at least four dives in the previous 12 months or shall
have undergone a Refresher Program.

b) Level 2 (12-18m) (40-60 feet)

i. Divers shall be at least Open Water certified and trained in
Victoria with at least two logged boat dives of which one shall
be greater than 12 metres and at least one whilst under
instruction.

OR

if trained outside Victoria, be at least Open Water certified
and should have completed Area Orientation and at least two logged
boat dives, one of which shall have been at least 12 metres.

To retain a current Level 2 rating, divers shall have completed
and logged at least four Level 2 dives or higher in Victoria in the
previous 12 months or shall have undergone a Refresher Program.


c) Level 3 (19-30m) (63-100 feet)

i. Divers shall be at least Advanced Diver certified and trained in
Victoria with a total of at least 15 logged dives consisting of four
dives greater than 12 metres with at least one dive between 25 and
30 metres whilst under instruction.

OR

if trained outside Victoria, be at least Advanced Diver certified
and should have completed Area Orientation and the dive requirements
as specified in c) i. above.

OR

have completed at least 50 logged Level 2 dives in Victoria of which
at least four were in the previous 12 months.

ii. To retain a current Level 3 rating, divers shall have completed and
logged at least four Level 3 dives or higher in Victoria in the last
12 months or shall have undergone a Refresher Program.

d) Level 4 (30-39m) (100-127 feet)

i. Divers shall be Deep Diver certified and trained in Victoria or be a
Cave Divers Association Australia Sinkhole Diver and shall have a total of at least 30 logged
dives consisting of four dives greater than 24 metres whilst under
instruction including two dives greater than 35 metres.

OR

if trained outside Victoria, at least Deep Diver certified and should
have completed Area Orientation and the dive requirements as
specified in d) i. above.

ii. To retain a current Level 4 rating, divers shall have completed and
logged at least four Level 4 dives or higher in Victoria in the last
12 months or shall have undergone a Refresher Program.

2. Technical Diving

e) Level 5 Qualified to 50M;
Level 6 Qualified to 60M;
Level 7 Qualified beyond 60M

To retain a current level rating, divers shall have completed and logged at least
four dives to their rated level in the last 12 months or shall have undergone a
Refresher program or dive with an appropriately qualified instructor.

Reality is, the more restrictive the requirements, the less divers you will have. This is an industry that by all accounts on this board that is really hurting. Making it more difficult to get wet will just drive people away.

Plus...did I miss in your list of options there....what would say someone from my area have to do to dive there? Would they even be allowed to dive there? Everyone seems to make the assumption that dive logs are honest and complete and that every dive logged ...was actually done. (That would be an interesting thread topic all by itself......do you know anyone that "fudges" dives in their log....)

,

theslyfox01 once bubbled...
as an example my dive buddy got certified in Thailand and had around 10 dives under his belt and then dived with the club in 60 degrees Fahrenheit water for the first time on a 100 feet wreck with low viz.

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130 feet actually. Yet ironically it was the other (much more experienced) buddy group that ran into problems....

The dive was fine and no problems arose but due to the club having alot of inexperienced OW and AOW divers and alot of challenging dives in the area we need a set of standards to dictate what level a diver is beyond their cert card. Especially since the temp. has now dropped to 52f. :wacko:

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Agreed, which is why we started having people list the number of dives they've done on the dive signup sheets....

d) Level 4 (30-39m) (100-127 feet)

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Just a note for the minority of divers here that aren't from Melbourne D) - A redundant gas supply is required on all level 4+ dives. Well, at least by operators that go by the DIVA standard.

theslyfox01 once bubbled...
Everyone agreed later it wasen't appropriate however no-one wanted to be the one to say 'sorry your not experienced enough for this dive yet.'

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All of your detailed diver and dive difficulty rankings are irrelevant if your group is not willing to exercise common sense.

That NONE of you were willing to speak up about a safety issue such as this is amazing.

If you review various dive incident reports, a large percentage appear to be cases where people just turned off their brains and did stupid things. Common sense, not letting your ego get in the way of safety, and the ability to communicate and discuss possible problems go a long way towards increasing dive safety.

Charlie99 once bubbled...
All of your detailed diver and dive difficulty rankings are irrelevant if your group is not willing to exercise common sense.

That NONE of you were willing to speak up about a safety issue such as this is amazing.

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Well, that was a bit of an exaggeration. I was one of the 3 divers there. Before the dive I asked both the other divers whether they felt up for the dive a couple of times, briefed them on the expected conditions, talked about narcosis, and agreed to ascend immediately if anything didn't feel right. We maintained very close buddy contact throughout the dive, and it went without a hitch.

Straggler Dave once bubbled...
Well, that was a bit of an exaggeration. I was one of the 3 divers there. Before the dive I asked both the other divers whether they felt up for the dive a couple of times, briefed them on the expected conditions, talked about narcosis, and agreed to ascend immediately if anything didn't feel right. We maintained very close buddy contact throughout the dive, and it went without a hitch.

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That sounds like a good discussion of the risks; followed by intelligent, knowledgeable decisions.

Rules and formal certifications are dangerous if they start taking the place of common sense.

You might want to check this thread. C-Cards/ Qualifications or common sense? http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33191

Dive logs can be "fudged" as much as a someone wants and unless you know aobut it before hand it is hard to catch them. The worse part is not only are they lying to themselves they are lying to everyone else. As far as I'm concerned, anyone that fudges and lies about dives in their logs are lowlife scum and I don't want to associate with them.

Yes I do know a few divers that "fudge" on dives in the fact they will dive for 10-15 minutes, surface for 10 then dive again. Just so they can build their numbers up for their divemaster course. Those people I will not dive with and I have even questioned them about their ability both as dm's and divers and their instructors ethics.

Unfortunately, everyone isn't honest and life isn't fair so we'll just have to do the best we can.

Lead_carrier once bubbled...
Yes I do know a few divers that "fudge" on dives in the fact they will dive for 10-15 minutes, surface for 10 then dive again. Just so they can build their numbers up for their divemaster course. Those people I will not dive with and I have even questioned them about their ability both as dm's and divers and their instructors ethics.

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Does PADI (or whatever other agency) has a policy on this behaviour? I recall they have a minimum depth/time for a dive to be considered a dive, but I have no idea how deep/long that is and whether it's enforced... :huh:

theslyfox01 once bubbled...

One problem the club has come across recently is that cert. cards alone are not enough to determine a persons ability to complete certain dives, as an example my dive buddy got certified in Thailand and had around 10 dives under his belt and then dived with the club in 60 degrees Fahrenheit water for the first time on a 100 feet wreck with low viz. (a situation not often a problem when diving in season in Thailand.)

Everyone agreed later it wasen't appropriate however no-one wanted to be the one to say 'sorry your not experienced enough for this dive yet.'

-The dive was fine and no problems arose but due to the club having alot of inexperienced OW and AOW divers and alot of challenging dives in the area we need a set of standards to dictate what level a diver is beyond their cert card. Especially since the temp. has now dropped to 52f.

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Your kidding, right? 60f degrees and low vis to 100ft. and now its 52f. You call this extreme, or even challenging?

If I stepped on a boat and was told the water is 60f or even 52f I might just do it in a 3mm shorty. As for the rating system they have come up with, it seems to me they are just too used to perfect conditions.

Come on up here to Canada, I'll even put you up in a nice cabin at no cost. We can do a few dives in water that is 68f for the first 30 feet, then drops to a cool 38f the rest of the way down. Max depth will be 120 feet, but if you are trimix rated we can plan a dive to the bottom of the crater in the middle of the lake to 365 feet. Oh by the way, vis is usually 20 to 40 feet at the best of times, reaching 80 feet vis below the 80 foot mark due to less student traffic. The water is a dark tea colour, so you will need a light below 60 feet regardless of the conditions top side. Interested?