Getting in TRIM

[Mike Boswell]

The expert divers on SB talk a lot about the benefits of perfect trim, and several courses covering trim are offered by different agencies. I have been debating taking the PADI PPB course with my wife, but before I do, I would like to better understand the issues.

Is achieving perfect trim difficult? How is it done? What is involved? Can you do it yourself, or does it require assistance and/or training?

[Thalassamania]

Good trim (I'm not sure there is "perfect" trim since it is dynamic) is not hard to achieve, it takes practice and working in small steps and it can be done on your own, but a good instructor can speed the process. PPB may be great or a waste of time, depends on the instructor. GUE Fundies or the UTD equivalent will never be a waste of time.

[Jim Lapenta]

Thal is correct. It is not difficult but does take a little time, proper weighting, and doing it in small manageable steps. It is IMO easiest if done in conjunction with proper buoyancy control techniques. I begin to introduce the idea of trim on the first night on scuba in OW class. Over the next 5-6 sessions how to achive it is pretty well established. After that it takes practice and willingness on the divers part to keep at it. It will soon become instinctive if started on immediately.

[Bubbletrubble]

Video review can be very helpful in working out trim issues. Have your wife take a few video clips of you swimming along. Do the same for her. The little digital camera point-and-shoots are great for this kind of stuff.

Getting proper ballast placement for good static trim is very much a trial-and-error process. An instructor or experienced diver can help out with this.

Thal, gives good advice. A good instructor makes a big difference.

[Scott L]

I am still a tec diving neophyte but have dealt with over 4 tec instuctors during my training. Only one (Bob Sherwood) made dialing-in proper weighting/trim the first objective. It seems ludicrous to procede with further skills until this is accomplished IMO...

[Rainer]

If you're in San Diego, a great instructor to talk to about helping you with any trim issues (and anything else dive-related) is Marc Hall (GUE Instructor résumé | Global Underwater Explorers (http://gue.com/?q=en/node/209&id=509)).

[Louie]

Hi Mike,

First of all, it's great that you and your wife are taking the issues of trim and buoyancy control seriously and considering the PPB course.

Buoyancy control and equipment are crucial for diving safely - both for you and for the underwater environment around you - and to have comfortable and enjoyable dives. But sadly, it's something that is neglected too often by many divers. I've seen many experienced divers with dreadful trim and control flapping about and damaging reefs.

To answer your question about how to achieve trim, I can only give the "it depends".

Like many other skills in diving, there are some individuals who catch on quickly without assistance/training and then there are others who may take a bit longer. But whatever the case, there is nothing like EXPERIENCE for making improvements. Often, it's something simple - like making minor readjustments to your BC, weights or the position of your tank - that makes a lot of difference (I will forever be grateful to a DM who, on one of my earlier dives, showed me some tricks for better weighting).

It's always nice to ask professionals and more experienced divers for advice, guidance and tricks on improving trim and buoyancy control but it's practice that'll make it perfect.

All the best on your training and diving!

[fire_diver]

If you have a dive partner, you can get into trim much faster than playing around with trial and error on your own. Another good aspect of the buddy, is your personal "feeling" being wrong.

The first time I was trully level and in trim, I felt like I was really head-down. An outside eye helps alot.


I would recommend talking with the instructor before signing up. Some PPB courses are useless, others can really help you out.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Here's how I explain it to my students ...

When you are floating, there are two basic forces keeping you in place ... the weight of the water above you (gravity) and the resistance of the water below you (bouyancy). Now, think of your body like a see-saw ... with an imaginary "fulcrum" positioned at the center of your body. The "resistance" of the water beneath you will be pretty much evenly distributed across your entire body ... but how the "gravity" above you affects your trim will be determined by your body positioning and how your weights are distributed. In an ideal world, you want the buoyancy and the gravity to effectively cancel each other out.

Let's look at weight distribution first. The test is to put yourself in a relaxed, horizontal position and stop all motion.

... if, when you stop all motion, your head begins to sink, you need to move some weight lower on your body

... if your feet begin to sink, you need to move some weight higher

Adjust your weights as needed to achieve a state where neither your head nor your feet sink when you stop moving, and you're trimmed out pretty well.

Now, the thing is, we don't always want to be in a relaxed, horizontal position. That's where body positioning comes in. Again using the see-saw analogy, what happens on a see-saw when you extend one side longer than the other? Gravity affects the longer side more than it does the shorter side, right? Well, you can achieve the same thing by using your arms and legs. Extending your arms while drawing your feet in by bending your knees will move the "fulcrum" such that it causes your head to sink. You can also enhance that motion by breathing out, removing a bit of buoyancy from your lungs ... but remember that buoyancy changes will also cause you to move up and down, so use breathing only to help get the rotational motion started. By the time your breathing begins to affect your depth control, you'll need to breathe in again.

Conversely, extending your feet while moving your hands in closer to your chest will cause your feet to sink. You can enhance that motion by breathing in, increasing the buoyancy of your lungs. The same caveat applies as above.

So, basically, trim is a combination of weight distribution ("static" trim), body positioning (dynamic trim), and breathing control (changing your buoyancy slightly to momentarily enhance the desired motion).

It takes a bit of practice to learn the finer points, but once you get the concepts, it's really not that difficult to achieve ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[elan]

The expert divers on SB talk a lot about the benefits of perfect trim, and several courses covering trim are offered by different agencies. I have been debating taking the PADI PPB course with my wife, but before I do, I would like to better understand the issues.

Is achieving perfect trim difficult? How is it done? What is involved? Can you do it yourself, or does it require assistance and/or training?

At 100 dives behind the belt you can skip PADI non-sense altogether. Just use those money towards class like GUE-F :)

[Scoobers]

NWgratefuldiver - I have been having trouble with my feet sinking and I am going to try some of the techniques you just described. I usually swim with my hands at my sides but I am going to try and move them near my shoulders or even out in front to see if that helps. Thanks for the tips!!

[roturner]

Mike,

Getting in trim isn't really that difficult but it can take some time for the coin to fall. There aren't a lot of variables

- amount of weight
- placement of weight
- gear considerations
- breathing, comfort/psychological and raw buoyancy control issues
- body posture
- swimming technique

and, of course, whether or not someone is making video... LOL

A good PPB course, regardless of agency, will take all of those topics and give you the low-down on each bit one by one and then spend time in the water putting the pieces together. Now that you have the list you should be able to go read about it all on your own and put it together yourself. A good instructor will significantly shorten the learning curve. You need to shop around for a good instructor. Not all instructors are good divers and/or teachers.

As for your comment about achieving "perfect" trim. Perfect is the goal but it's also an illusion. Just like driving a car "straight" down the road, you're always making small corrections. The illusion of perfect trim is just that you don't see the corrections.

R..

[101recon]

Here's how I explain it to my students ...

When you are floating, there are two basic forces keeping you in place ... the weight of the water above you (gravity) and the resistance of the water below you (bouyancy). Now, think of your body like a see-saw ... with an imaginary "fulcrum" positioned at the center of your body. The "resistance" of the water beneath you will be pretty much evenly distributed across your entire body ... but how the "gravity" above you affects your trim will be determined by your body positioning and how your weights are distributed. In an ideal world, you want the buoyancy and the gravity to effectively cancel each other out.

Let's look at weight distribution first. The test is to put yourself in a relaxed, horizontal position and stop all motion.

... if, when you stop all motion, your head begins to sink, you need to move some weight lower on your body

... if your feet begin to sink, you need to move some weight higher

Adjust your weights as needed to achieve a state where neither your head nor your feet sink when you stop moving, and you're trimmed out pretty well.

Now, the thing is, we don't always want to be in a relaxed, horizontal position. That's where body positioning comes in. Again using the see-saw analogy, what happens on a see-saw when you extend one side longer than the other? Gravity affects the longer side more than it does the shorter side, right? Well, you can achieve the same thing by using your arms and legs. Extending your arms while drawing your feet in by bending your knees will move the "fulcrum" such that it causes your head to sink. You can also enhance that motion by breathing out, removing a bit of buoyancy from your lungs ... but remember that buoyancy changes will also cause you to move up and down, so use breathing only to help get the rotational motion started. By the time your breathing begins to affect your depth control, you'll need to breathe in again.

Conversely, extending your feet while moving your hands in closer to your chest will cause your feet to sink. You can enhance that motion by breathing in, increasing the buoyancy of your lungs. The same caveat applies as above.

So, basically, trim is a combination of weight distribution ("static" trim), body positioning (dynamic trim), and breathing control (changing your buoyancy slightly to momentarily enhance the desired motion).

It takes a bit of practice to learn the finer points, but once you get the concepts, it's really not that difficult to achieve ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)


This should be required reading for new divers.Thanks.

[stakanak]

Thanks NW-you are the first one to completely explain the extending of arms and legs with the fulcrum analogy. I think I was doing a lot of this naturally when I tried to stop using my arms and legs to "push" myself about. My next tank shall be dedicated to perfecting my weighting and using the fulcrum aspects of trim.
Good Diving!

[TSandM]

I agree that a good instructor can significantly shorten the time it takes to get your gear and your posture sorted . . . but make sure your PPB instructor is even familiar with the concept of trim, and posture, and moving weight around. Some of them aren't. You've had a good recommendation in Marc Hall.

[liuk3]

I am still a tec diving neophyte but have dealt with over 4 tec instuctors during my training. Only one (Bob Sherwood) made dialing-in proper weighting/trim the first objective. It seems ludicrous to procede with further skills until this is accomplished IMO...

Yeah, I agree. Bob Sherwood is the ultimate trim doctor. That guy eyeballed and diagnosed issues I would have before I even stepped into the water. It was pretty incredible. His vast experience and passion as an instructor really shines through if you are ever fortunate enough to train with him.

Another +1 here for signing up for a GUE Fundamentals class. People often balk at the price of the class, but the skills you learn will serve you for the rest of your dive career no matter level you seek to attain. The only issue with the class is if you do not want to employ the basic equipment configuration (e.g. backplate/wing and long hose).

[Mike Boswell]

I would think that, with a partially inflated BC, the air will rise to the high end, affecting your trim in the process. This would mean if you were head-high, the air would shift to the front (top) of your BC and you would tend to stay head-high. Is this true?

[Bubbletrubble]

I would think that, with a partially inflated BC, the air will rise to the high end, affecting your trim in the process. This would mean if you were head-high, the air would shift to the front (top) of your BC and you would tend to stay head-high. Is this true?
Yes.

An interesting transition for many people is when they go from using a wetsuit to a drysuit. Body positioning and "balance" can influence migration of the bubble inside the drysuit, which greatly impacts overall trim. I like running more air in my suit than some people because it keeps me warmer. However, it does mean that I have to pay closer attention to management of that bubble...especially during the ascent phase of the dive.

[knowone]

A Quick Pearl.
Heres a quick pearl.
Beware the holy bouyancy. In some circumstances You may well be feeling your bubbles, and looking closely at your compass in order to realise your orientation.
That Illusion of Perfect Trim thing is very good.

[carrielsal]

+1 on finding someone with a video camera. My biggest challenge was frog kicks. My instructor could tell me what I was going (or not doing), but I really didn't get it until I saw a video of myself.

[Kern]

I would think that, with a partially inflated BC, the air will rise to the high end, affecting your trim in the process. This would mean if you were head-high, the air would shift to the front (top) of your BC and you would tend to stay head-high. Is this true?

Yes, but this is why some emphasis the need for proper weighting, to reduce the amount of gas needed to compensate. It's also why some like smaller wings, sized for the job at hand. This way the size of the bubble, & where it can move to, is minimised, & so its impact on trim is also minimised with changes in orientation.

[Mike Boswell]

A Quick Pearl.
Heres a quick pearl.
Beware the holy bouyancy. In some circumstances You may well be feeling your bubbles, and looking closely at your compass in order to realise your orientation.
That Illusion of Perfect Trim thing is very good.

Ahh, Knowone... I have glivened the scorcy orbs spewn and rose fast upon a pyre of liveried rair.
Please: Why DO the holy buoyancy?
Do they thus twist my needle fore and aft, til upon my soul I cannot ken it? Whether 'tis Perfect Trim or Trimmed Perfection I know, or not, but feeling my bubbles is very good, very good illusion.
I don't know what I DO know - and then Glenlivet.

[knowone]

Ahh, Knowone... I have glivened the scorcy orbs spewn and rose fast upon a pyre of liveried rair.
Please: Why DO the holy buoyancy?
Do they thus twist my needle fore and aft, til upon my soul I cannot ken it? Whether 'tis Perfect Trim or Trimmed Perfection I know, or not, but feeling my bubbles is very good, very good illusion.
I don't know what I DO know - and then Glenlivet.

Ahh, kind bard thoust mae jest, foremost Maid Marion - and then Chivas Regal.

[RJP]

Thal is correct. It is not difficult but does take a little time, proper weighting, and doing it in small manageable steps. It is IMO easiest if done in conjunction with proper buoyancy control techniques. I begin to introduce the idea of trim on the first night on scuba in OW class. Over the next 5-6 sessions how to achive it is pretty well established. After that it takes practice and willingness on the divers part to keep at it. It will soon become instinctive if started on immediately.

I'll take any chance to trot out one of my favorite photos. Pictured below is a guy (me) doing his 15th logged dive. You'll notice I'm holding a camera/strobe, while hovering motionless, horizontal, two feet off the bottom, in 12' of water...

http://www.scubaboard.com/gallery/data/500/medium/GoodViz2.jpg

Am I the greatest natural uber-diver to have ever done a giant stride? Of course not! The way you see me diving in the picture above is simply me "copying" the only way I had ever seen anyone dive during my OW and AOW classes. (Logged dives 1-9) And, by the way, that included my OW instructor here in NJ, the guy who did my referral checkouts in West Palm Beach (SB's own ScubaKevDM) and my AOW instructor at a resort in Hawaii.

The instructors I had simply never demo'd skills any other way or showed me any other way to dive. Silly me - at the time I wasn't sophisticated enough to know that I wasn't supposed to be able to dive that way until I had taken Fundies!

Personally, I firmly believe that it is much easier to teach someone rigorous buoyancy control, proper trim, and effective propulsion techniques in OW class than it is after dive 10, or 25, or 50, or 100. After only a few pool sessions or OW dives most divers will adopt accommodations and inappropriate coping mechanisms to deal with their new unnatural surroundings, gear, and ineffective techniques. Essentially they get very comfortable being over-weighted, bicycle kicking like crazy at a 45deg angle while wildly flailing their arms.

At that point, to try to "fix" all those problems is much harder than teaching them properly in the first place, because it requires UNLEARNING things they are now very comfortable with and happy doing. Then becoming uncomfortable again with new approaches and techniques which - although perhaps "superior" in every respect - are by comparison even more new and awkward than what they have already become accustomed to.

My take - having learned this way - is that no-matter what, the student is going to be uncomfortable and awkward at first and then adapt. Why not start the process right, and have them adapt to THAT, rather than have them adapt to an inadequate approach, which then needs to be modified.

[TSandM]

RJP, fabulous post!

Mike, you are right. Many arrangements are stable. For example, those of us who have transitioned to doubles have often found ourselves strongly head-heavy at first. The solution is to rotate until your feet are down -- that way, you can park air in the top arc of your wing, to counteract your tendency to tilt head-down. If you don't understand the process, you might think you need to shift weight UP your body (my husband did) but that makes the problem worse.

That's one of the reasons why it's good to have an instructor or experienced mentor to help you sort out trim issues. You may misdiagnose the problem, and apply precisely the wrong correction.

[Quero]

Personally, I firmly believe that it is much easier to teach someone rigorous buoyancy control, proper trim, and effective propulsion techniques in OW class than it is after dive 10, or 25, or 50, or 100. After only a few pool sessions or OW dives most divers will adopt accommodations and inappropriate coping mechanisms to deal with their new unnatural surroundings, gear, and ineffective techniques. Essentially they get very comfortable being over-weighted, bicycle kicking like crazy at a 45deg angle while wildly flailing their arms.

At that point, to try to "fix" all those problems is much harder than teaching them properly in the first place, because it requires UNLEARNING things they are now very comfortable with and happy doing. Then becoming uncomfortable again with new approaches and techniques which - although perhaps "superior" in every respect - are by comparison even more new and awkward than what they have already become accustomed to.

This is SO true. I always let my Open Water students know that one of my top priorities is having them stay in trim with no use of their arms. (Actually, I tell all my students this, especially since it's so often the first time any instructor has focused on trim with them.) I remember one student who admitted to thinking, every time I tapped my tank to show her something, "Where are my hands? Am I horizontal?" She is an airline pilot, so very performance-oriented anyway, but she certainly got the message that I expected her to be in trim.

Though it might be labeled "self-interest" I can't agree with the blanket recommendation of one poster to
skip PADI non-sense altogether. Just use those money towards class like GUE-F
There's no question that Fundies is an outstanding course, but it isn't necessarily the best choice for everybody. There are in fact instructors among the mass-market agencies who do a very good job of teaching PPB so that it isn't nonsense. I have had more than one diver with 100+ dives who has benefitted from topics I cover in PPB, even if we didn't do the course in a formal way. Any coaching for scuba diving that I do involves discussion of and work on buoyancy and trim.

[Mike Boswell]

RJP, fabulous post!

Mike, you are right. Many arrangements are stable. For example, those of us who have transitioned to doubles have often found ourselves strongly head-heavy at first. The solution is to rotate until your feet are down -- that way, you can park air in the top arc of your wing, to counteract your tendency to tilt head-down. If you don't understand the process, you might think you need to shift weight UP your body (my husband did) but that makes the problem worse.

That's one of the reasons why it's good to have an instructor or experienced mentor to help you sort out trim issues. You may misdiagnose the problem, and apply precisely the wrong correction.

I think this shifting wing bubble phenomena may be the problem my wife was having, because when I tried to adjust her trim by moving tank and lead fore and aft, I got inconsistent results (sometimes she was head-up, other times head-down).

But ... that was at 65' with a few puffs of air in her BC.

SO .... should we FIRST get the weights and tank position adjusted at a shallower depth (i.e. - 40') where there is no need for air in the BC? I am thinking that once she is trimmed level with no air, then she can work on managing the wing bubble.

[carrielsal]

In doubles and a drysuit, I am always head heavy. I have the bands up as far as possible, and I have a very low v-weight that hangs off the bank of my bp. I can arch my back but when hovering my head slowly migrates down. I put a little air in my arms by my elbows and it trims me right out.

[fire_diver]

SO .... should we FIRST get the weights and tank position adjusted at a shallower depth (i.e. - 40') where there is no need for air in the BC? I am thinking that once she is trimmed level with no air, then she can work on managing the wing bubble.

Absolutely! Get trimmed with ZERO air in the BC.

When you go deeper and need to add air, you can put the air bubble back into "neutral".

On a side note for trim.. If you do have an air bubble, put yourself into a head up position for a moment, then tuck back down into level. This will make sure your air is distributed evenly.

[Scott L]

I would think that, with a partially inflated BC, the air will rise to the high end, affecting your trim in the process. This would mean if you were head-high, the air would shift to the front (top) of your BC and you would tend to stay head-high. Is this true?


Absolutely! Get trimmed with ZERO air in the BC.

Are we starting with minimal gas or are we working on trim whilst sinking like a rock? :)

[fire_diver]

Are we starting with minimal gas or are we working on trim whilst sinking like a rock? :)

LOL, funny image...

You should be NEUTRAL. This can be done at the end of dive, in shallow water, just like doing a proper weight check.

[Scott L]

LOL, funny image...

You should be NEUTRAL. This can be done at the end of dive, in shallow water, just like doing a proper weight check.

:thumb:

[Mike Boswell]

Are we starting with minimal gas or are we working on trim whilst sinking like a rock? :)


LOL, funny image...

You should be NEUTRAL. This can be done at the end of dive, in shallow water, just like doing a proper weight check.

Well, we start the dive, just as Tobin says, with a full tank, a normal breath, no air in the BC, floating at eye level. We exhale, invert and swim down. At about 3 feet deep any trapped air escapes and the wetsuit begins to compress and from about 10 feet to 45 feet we are more or less neutral*. We can stay in that depth range, without any air in the BC, for the entire dive and finish with an empty tank (500 psi) at the 15 foot safety stop.

*Strictly speaking we must be a few pounds negative in the beginning and a few pounds positive at the end, but we seem to tolerate that effortlessly by adjusting lung volume.

Starting at about 50 feet the wetsuit compression becomes significant and we need to add air to the BC.

[TSandM]

If you are using heavy exposure protection, you'll have a lot less gas in the wing closer to the surface than you will at depth.

Mike, working on it closer to the surface might be easier, but I think this is a lot of the reason you really need an observant buddy to help. If, as somebody has already written, you go fairly head-up for a moment, and then settle back down to horizontal, the gas will move to the highest point in the arc on either side of the tank. Then, when you stop moving, if you are balanced in your weighting and in good posture, you won't move off the horizontal. If you do, you either need to correct your posture or your weight distribution (or sometimes both!) But the key is to start from a horizontal position.

The head-up phenomenon I mentioned with doubles is something you see during active diving -- it's an unconscious (or sometimes conscious) strategy the diver adopts to cope with the tendency to become a lawn dart. But if you take such a diver and have them achieve a horizontal position by finning (which one can usually do) the gas will not remain in the top of the wing -- it will redistribute to the side arcs. Then, when the diver stops kicking, the true problem of head-heaviness will become apparent.

[aquaregia]

So how early would you recommend taking Fundies? I was sort of planning to get few years diving experience before I jumped into that.

[fire_diver]

Sooner rather than later. If you wait a few years you will be forced to unlearn bad habits. Start with a clean slate.

[TSandM]

I think one of the GUE instructors put it perfectly: As soon as you can remain still enough to watch skills demonstrated, you should take Fundies. Now, if you take it early, you may not pass the first time through, as I did not. But you will take away a bunch of things to practice during your subsequent fun dives, and you will steadily improve and your diving will be more fun, too.

Edited to add that, with the creation of the GUE primer, there is now an option for the person who really thinks they're too shaky to do Fundies yet, or who doesn't want to be graded at the end of the class. The Primer is a workshop to introduce skills.

[elan]

There's no question that Fundies is an outstanding course, but it isn't necessarily the best choice for everybody. There are in fact instructors among the mass-market agencies who do a very good job of teaching PPB so that it isn't nonsense.

By saying there are instructors on the market that give a good content you just confirm that the course itself leaves a lot to be desired.

[knowone]

Are we starting with minimal gas or are we working on trim whilst sinking like a rock? :)

Yeah. Hilarious picture when you're chasing some non buddy noodle to hook up his inflator hose before his head implodes whilst his buddies are bobbing around on the surface giving a wierd looking signal to the boat bloke who doesn't really care and isn't in much of a position to do anything anyway.
Although I must admit I've dumped my gear in the back of the truck without disconnecting my drysuit hose. Now that was hilarious. Tailgate was up.

[elan]

LOL, funny image...

You should be NEUTRAL. This can be done at the end of dive, in shallow water, just like doing a proper weight check.

One should do both full and "empty" as the weight of the gas will change the trim as well depending how the tank is placed relatively to the BC

[TSandM]

You know, you CAN overthink this. Although you can't fight physics, you can do a lot more with body posture than you might think. If you get things relatively close with static weighting, you can often manage the rest. Certainly, you don't need to do your static weighting experiments with full and empty tanks!

[Mike Boswell]

Yeah. Hilarious picture when you're chasing some non buddy noodle to hook up his inflator hose before his head implodes whilst his buddies are bobbing around on the surface giving a wierd looking signal to the boat bloke who doesn't really care and isn't in much of a position to do anything anyway.
Although I must admit I've dumped my gear in the back of the truck without disconnecting my drysuit hose. Now that was hilarious. Tailgate was up.

I have considered going to a drysuit, but never used one. Don't you have enough air in your BC to float you even if you forget to connect the drysuit hose?

[elan]

You know, you CAN overthink this. Although you can't fight physics, you can do a lot more with body posture than you might think. If you get things relatively close with static weighting, you can often manage the rest. Certainly, you don't need to do your static weighting experiments with full and empty tanks!


Well in fact I needed :) And I did as well as experimenting with shifting the wing up and down. There are many variables that influence the trim and they all contribute with different force.

You can compensate the weighting difference with the legs and arms/head if your static weighting gives you enough operating range on both sides.

It is always good to experiment to understand where you can twick the equipment to get the best result and to see where the center of your trim operating range is located. Only by experimenting I have found the shorter tanks like HP100 shift my trim from head to tail when getting empty.

[knowone]

I have considered going to a drysuit, but never used one. Don't you have enough air in your BC to float you even if you forget to connect the drysuit hose?

Gives you a new perspective on shrinkage. I've only used neoprene. Floating is not the issue with dry diving. Suit squeeze feels like someone has wrapped a knotted wet towel around your crotch and is twisting it with a stick.

[fire_diver]

Gives you a new perspective on shrinkage. I've only used neoprene. Floating is not the issue with dry diving. Suit squeeze feels like someone has wrapped a knotted wet towel around your crotch and is twisting it with a stick.

Dude! :shocked2: That is just WRONG :(

PUSH THE INFLATE BUTTON ON THE FRONT OF THE SUIT!!!

[RJP]

Personally, I firmly believe that it is much easier to teach someone rigorous buoyancy control, proper trim, and effective propulsion techniques in OW class than it is after dive 10, or 25, or 50, or 100. After only a few pool sessions or OW dives most divers will adopt accommodations and inappropriate coping mechanisms to deal with their new unnatural surroundings, gear, and ineffective techniques. Essentially they get very comfortable being over-weighted, bicycle kicking like crazy at a 45deg angle while wildly flailing their arms.

At that point, to try to "fix" all those problems is much harder than teaching them properly in the first place, because it requires UNLEARNING things they are now very comfortable with and happy doing. Then becoming uncomfortable again with new approaches and techniques which - although perhaps "superior" in every respect - are by comparison even more new and awkward than what they have already become accustomed to.

My take - having learned this way - is that no-matter what, the student is going to be uncomfortable and awkward at first and then adapt. Why not start the process right, and have them adapt to THAT, rather than have them adapt to an inadequate approach, which then needs to be modified.

Ironically, when I just logged in to ScubaBoard right now, the following photo and picture title was one of the ones featured on the home page:

"Students First Open Water Session"
http://www.scubaboard.com/gallery/data/500/medium/Arcadins_3-05-08_1_.JPG

And the next photo in that gallery was this one...

"Getting Used to the Under Water World"
http://www.scubaboard.com/gallery/data/500/medium/Arcadins_3-05-08_2_.JPG

Yup, they sure look like they're getting used to the under-water world!

:shocked2:

PS - anyone want to start a pool as to which one of the folks in the photos is the instructor? I'm guessing it's the woman standing in the second picture... at least she's not kneeling!

:eyebrow:

[Scott L]

Well that's at least 8lbs of weight on her belt without an exposure suit. Ay least she is walking her talk...



"Getting Used to the Under Water World"[/B]
http://www.scubaboard.com/gallery/data/500/medium/Arcadins_3-05-08_2_.JPG

Yup, they sure look like they're getting used to the under-water world!

:shocked2:

PS - anyone want to start a pool as to which one of the folks in the photos is the instructor? I'm guessing it's the woman standing in the second picture... at least she's not kneeling!

:eyebrow:

[Mike Boswell]

RJP - I am gonna report you for...Hey, she's kinda cute!

[Scott L]

RJP - I am gonna report you for...Hey, she's kinda cute!

:thumb:

[fire_diver]

Looks like a pretty normal first OW experience for a class.

Which is precisely why BOW needs to be expanded.

[RJP]

RJP - I am gonna report you for...Hey, she's kinda cute!


Here's the next picture in the series. Viz seems to have cleared up a bit...

http://www.scubaboard.com/gallery/data/500/medium/Arcadins_3-05-08_4_.JPG

[fire_diver]

That sure is an *interesting* way to wear a tank.

[Scott L]

That sure is an *interesting* way to wear a tank.

http://www.scubaboard.com/gallery/data/500/medium/Arcadins_3-05-08_4_.JPG

Looks like she may be in the process of being accosted...:shocked2:

[RJP]

http://www.scubaboard.com/gallery/data/500/medium/Arcadins_3-05-08_4_.JPG

Looks like she may be in the process of being accosted...:shocked2:

I'm gonna guess that she spends a fair bit of her time "in the process" of being accosted...

[Quero]

By saying there are instructors on the market that give a good content you just confirm that the course itself leaves a lot to be desired.
No. That's not what I'm saying at all. Please do not try to put words in my mouth.

I have been a professional educator for decades (in non-scuba domains), and while I acknowledge that an outstanding teacher can work wonders with a poor curriculum, I also know that a poor teacher can massacre an otherwise strong curriculum. What happens with Fundies is that there is a very, very limited number of instructors (just check the GUE website--they are all listed by name), which means that quality control at the level of instructional staff is fairly easy to maintain. Those instructors are the sort that could do wonders with whatever curriculum they were asked to work.

What I believe happens far too often is that poor instructors do a poor job with a curriculum that would work well if it were delivered competently. That is not the same as saying the course is woefully deficient--the deficiencies are in the way the course is conducted. That is also not to say that there couldn't be improvements to the course curriculum, but the course is not necessarily just "nonsense," as you labeled it, if it is taught well.

[elan]

No. That's not what I'm saying at all. Please do not try to put words in my mouth.

I have been a professional educator for decades (in non-scuba domains), and while I acknowledge that an outstanding teacher can work wonders with a poor curriculum, I also know that a poor teacher can massacre an otherwise strong curriculum. What happens with Fundies is that there is a very, very limited number of instructors (just check the GUE website--they are all listed by name), which means that quality control at the level of instructional staff is fairly easy to maintain. Those instructors are the sort that could do wonders with whatever curriculum they were asked to work.

What I believe happens far too often is that poor instructors do a poor job with a curriculum that would work well if it were delivered competently. That is not the same as saying there is some deficiency in the course--the deficiencies are in the way the course is conducted.

Well if you read my post well you will see that I did not ever try to put the words in your mouth, just reread my post. I just said that the fact you mention that some great instructors do in fact exist that give high quality training for that course is confirming that the overall level of the course is poor unless PADI does not care at all about instructors conforming to the standards of their courses, which I'm sure is not the case. It's that kind of case when exceptions just confirms the rule. If the average level of the service is high it goes without saying and there is no reason for mentioning about the exceptions (those high quality instructors) because it is just high.

Again those are not words I'm trying to put into your mouth but those my logical conclusions that I express here.

How GUE maintains their quality control and the quality of their instructors has nothing to do with this. They do it it's a fact, the cards are not handed out and the control of the student performance is quire strict, how they manage to do it is irrelevant.

Having taken the PPB course with PADI I am familiar with the curricular of the course and I cannot say anything about the instructor about not providing me with corresponding quality because he did in fact go through all the points of the course. The result is that after the course I did have more understanding about weighting and trim (up to the point of placing the weights into different pockets of my BC) but not to more or less sufficient point. I have found more answers for the deeper questions when preparing for my GUE-F course.

This is why I recommended the OP not to waste time with PADI non-sense.

Yes he might be lucky and find some good instructor who would go in more details in the class but he might not. As somebody said in the beginning the PADI course is more like a game, the GUE-F is more like a sure thing.

I have overall respect for those instructors who go deeper and make sure the student gets good understanding of the material and go beyond but observing how PADI is tought here and having taken different courses with at least 5 instructors in various places I understand that this is more of an exception than a rule.

[Quero]

Should I or shouldn't I (reply)? Will it serve any purpose? Most likely not, but what the hell! I'll make this my last post in this thread.

Look, elan, I don't want this to become personal. You don't like PADI or PADI instructors (and I suppose by extension that includes me), and have found that you get training more attuned with your individual needs elsewhere. That's wonderful. However that doesn't mean that your personal experience is necessarily generalizable to everyone. Fundies is great for some people and not the best choice for others. I dare say that many recreational divers would simply give up the sport if they were told to pass Fundies or quit. For many people, the curriculum/content of the courses taught by the big agencies is exactly what they need. Calling it "nonsense" is at best an exaggeration.

Well if you read my post well you will see that I did not ever try to put the words in your mouth, just reread my post.
Well, okay. Let me reread it.

...you just confirm that the course itself leaves a lot to be desiredTo me it still looks like you are attributing claims to me that I did not put there--I did not "confirm" that the course leaves "a lot to be desired." That is your conclusion, reading into my post some meaning that I didn't state.


there is no reason for mentioning about the exceptions (those high quality instructors)
I didn't say good instructors were "exceptions." Again, you are reading more into my words than what I said, which was that there are instructors who make certain that the course isn't "nonsense." On the other hand I don't claim that there aren't others who are not so rigorous in teaching to the standards. I do believe that outstanding instructors are exceptions, and that these instructors are to be found in all agencies. However, I don't think an instructor has to be outstanding to do a good enough job at teaching PPB that it's better than "nonsense."

How GUE maintains their quality control and the quality of their instructors has nothing to do with this.
I think it does. It's a lot harder to maintain quality control with thousands and thousands of instructors out there. My point is that a poor instructor can ruin an otherwise good course whereas a good instructor makes the most of it. I would agree with anyone who argued that there is a lot of scope for improvement in quality control in big agencies like PADI (which essentially relies on reports of failure and voluntary student feedback rather than pro-actively observing teaching and requiring re-certification) but that's a different discussion all together. Right now I'm only talking about the worth of the PPB course when taught competently.
I recommended the OP not to waste time with PADI non-sense. Again, what is a waste of time for you may not be for the next person. Your individual experience is not enough to imply that those of us who do not teach Fundies are wasting our students' time or that the courses we teach are worthless.
...observing how PADI is taught here and having taken different courses with at least 5 instructors in various places I understand that this is more of an exception than a rule. Your objectives are obviously not well-served through the standard dive training format. Just because those five instructors and courses did not meet your specific objectives does not necessarily mean they are poor quality--it only means they didn't work for you. I'm very glad that you found the kind of training that does meet your objectives, and I sincerely hope you have a long and satisfying life of safe diving.

[Thalassamania]

For many people, the curriculum/content of the courses taught by the big agencies is exactly what they need. Calling it "nonsense" is at best an exaggeration.
I do not agree.


Well, okay. Let me reread it.
To me it still looks like you are attributing claims to me that I did not put there--I did not "confirm" that the course leaves "a lot to be desired." That is your conclusion, reading into my post some meaning that I didn't state.
But it is true, even if you did not say it.


I didn't say good instructors were "exceptions." Again, you are reading more into my words than what I said, which was that there are instructors who make certain that the course isn't "nonsense." On the other hand I don't claim that there aren't others who are not so rigorous in teaching to the standards. I do believe that outstanding instructors are exceptions, and that these instructors are to be found in all agencies. However, I don't think an instructor has to be outstanding to do a good enough job at teaching PPB that it's better than "nonsense."
My experience is that "exceptional" instructors are rather more likely to be found in some agencies as opposed to others.


I think it does. It's a lot harder to maintain quality control with thousands and thousands of instructors out there.
Not really, if you take the profit out of instructor training, you make it a bit less convenient, so that it is not offered for just a few candidates on demand, but rather is offered for a group above ten by a sizable staff ... that goes a long way.


My point is that a poor instructor can ruin an otherwise good course whereas a good instructor makes the most of it. I would agree with anyone who argued that there is a lot of scope for improvement in quality control in big agencies like PADI (which essentially relies on reports of failure and voluntary student feedback rather than pro-actively observing teaching and requiring re-certification) but that's a different discussion all together. Right now I'm only talking about the worth of the PPB course when taught competently.
The mere existence of PPB is prima facia evidence of the failure of the O/W course to do what it is supposed to do.


Again, what is a waste of time for you may not be for the next person. Your individual experience is not enough to imply that those of us who do not teach Fundies are wasting our students' time or that the courses we teach are worthless.
I would not go that far.


Your objectives are obviously not well-served through the standard dive training format. Just because those five instructors and courses did not meet your specific objectives does not necessarily mean they are poor quality--it only means they didn't work for you. I'm very glad that you found the kind of training that does meet your objectives, and I sincerely hope you have a long and satisfying life of safe diving.It probably meant that they were poor quality, at least on an objective scale.

[TSandM]

What I believe happens far too often is that poor instructors do a poor job with a curriculum that would work well if it were delivered competently. That is not the same as saying the course is woefully deficient--the deficiencies are in the way the course is conducted. That is also not to say that there couldn't be improvements to the course curriculum, but the course is not necessarily just "nonsense," as you labeled it, if it is taught well.

I agree, Quero, even though I'll also say that I think virtually everybody would benefit from Fundies :) The classes as laid out in the book can be very good, but if they are taught by someone who either has no knowledge except exactly what's in the book, or who is too burned out to do any more than the minimum, they aren't worth much. The problem, as I addressed in the thread I started this morning, is how you advise someone to FIND one of these quality classes, because personal recommendations from people who have never HAD a quality class are not a good indicator.

[Quero]

I agree, Quero, even though I'll also say that I think virtually everybody would benefit from Fundies :) The classes as laid out in the book can be very good, but if they are taught by someone who either has no knowledge except exactly what's in the book, or who is too burned out to do any more than the minimum, they aren't worth much. The problem, as I addressed in the thread I started this morning, is how you advise someone to FIND one of these quality classes, because personal recommendations from people who have never HAD a quality class are not a good indicator.

Thanks, Lynne. I saw that thread, thought it was an interesting idea to explore the topic. I also found the thoughtful answers given quite good, though it's a very tricky thing since questioning personal recommendations as being unreliable is rather condescending.

I do agree to a certain extent that Fundies could be useful for lots of people, but the gear configuration requirements and the failure rate (requiring re-enrollment) mean that it's not really a course that welcomes plain old recreational divers. It takes a particular sort of diver with a certain mindset to undertake a Fundies course. So even if the performance requirements of the Fundies course could benefit everybody, the actual course itself really isn't for everybody.

I just get really tired of the agency bashing that seems to come up on so many threads. I try to ignore it, but sometimes it gets the better of me. This thread is one of those times.

[elan]

I actually liked PADI Rescue course and I think it's well made and was of a very good value

[Thalassamania]

With the right instructor the rescue course (in most all agencies) is about the best course offered, it's were a lot of things get "put together."

[diver 85]

Remember---no one is perfect---even the 'perfect' ones, no matter they say.......

[Peter Guy]

I do agree to a certain extent that Fundies could be useful for lots of people, but the gear configuration requirements and the failure rate (requiring re-enrollment) mean that it's not really a course that welcomes plain old recreational divers.
I agree with you regarding the gear which is why I took Essentials of DIR first (prior to UTD existing). There was no need to change much gear (except adding a 5' hose and ditching the snorkel) and I didn't have split fins anyway so no change there.

Either of these courses can provide a path for most "recreational" divers to become better divers as long as that is something they desire.

[NWGratefulDiver]

I think one of the GUE instructors put it perfectly: As soon as you can remain still enough to watch skills demonstrated, you should take Fundies. Now, if you take it early, you may not pass the first time through, as I did not. But you will take away a bunch of things to practice during your subsequent fun dives, and you will steadily improve and your diving will be more fun, too.


Now if you take it later, you may not pass the first time through, as I did not. But you may come out of it so frustrated with your level of suckage that you're tempted to burn your gear and take up bowling.

Earlier is better than later ... it's easier to learn good habits than it is to break bad ones.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[elan]

Should I or shouldn't I (reply)? Will it serve any purpose? Most likely not, but what the hell! I'll make this my last post in this thread.

Look, elan, I don't want this to become personal. You don't like PADI or PADI instructors (and I suppose by extension that includes me), and have found that you get training more attuned with your individual needs elsewhere. That's wonderful. However that doesn't mean that your personal experience is necessarily generalizable to everyone. Fundies is great for some people and not the best choice for others. I dare say that many recreational divers would simply give up the sport if they were told to pass Fundies or quit. For many people, the curriculum/content of the courses taught by the big agencies is exactly what they need. Calling it "nonsense" is at best an exaggeration.

Well, okay. Let me reread it.
To me it still looks like you are attributing claims to me that I did not put there--I did not "confirm" that the course leaves "a lot to be desired." That is your conclusion, reading into my post some meaning that I didn't state.


I didn't say good instructors were "exceptions." Again, you are reading more into my words than what I said, which was that there are instructors who make certain that the course isn't "nonsense." On the other hand I don't claim that there aren't others who are not so rigorous in teaching to the standards. I do believe that outstanding instructors are exceptions, and that these instructors are to be found in all agencies. However, I don't think an instructor has to be outstanding to do a good enough job at teaching PPB that it's better than "nonsense."

I think it does. It's a lot harder to maintain quality control with thousands and thousands of instructors out there. My point is that a poor instructor can ruin an otherwise good course whereas a good instructor makes the most of it. I would agree with anyone who argued that there is a lot of scope for improvement in quality control in big agencies like PADI (which essentially relies on reports of failure and voluntary student feedback rather than pro-actively observing teaching and requiring re-certification) but that's a different discussion all together. Right now I'm only talking about the worth of the PPB course when taught competently.Again, what is a waste of time for you may not be for the next person. Your individual experience is not enough to imply that those of us who do not teach Fundies are wasting our students' time or that the courses we teach are worthless. Your objectives are obviously not well-served through the standard dive training format. Just because those five instructors and courses did not meet your specific objectives does not necessarily mean they are poor quality--it only means they didn't work for you. I'm very glad that you found the kind of training that does meet your objectives, and I sincerely hope you have a long and satisfying life of safe diving.

You do not have to be that defensive, I have never assumed you or the other instructors teaching with PADI are of a low level or the courses are worthless. My personal feeling is the PADI courses are very expensive. They are expensive for the service you get in return. You pay much you get little. Some instructors ,those who are great enthusiasts of the sport and love what they do and they really want to see students to be able to things perfect, put extra effort, they sacrifice their time and they make sure the goals are reached, they deserve respect and they have it, at least from me. But much more just follow the words of the requirements. And those who learn a bit more to dive they feel that the same words describing the requirements of the course can have so huge deviation in real word. One thing is to do all the skills outlined in the manual in a warm 80 degrees water in a swim suit the other doing the same in 40F water in a dry suit. The same words describing the requirements, but a very huge difference in how easy it is done in the real life. PADI PPB course in warm Caribbean water in a swim suit and empty BCD and yes sure you are a peak performer, in 2 hours, especially if you have no lead and you can adjust your trim by moving the tank up and down. And you pay 150 dollars (at least here) for this non-sense course that you can basically do yourself by diving in a pool reading the manual. You will be hard pressed to find anybody who would bring your skills to the same level here in a heavy exposure suit. They will most likely be that kind of enthusiast people, and there are very few of them here.

For 600 US including the gases you can get so much more form the Fundies, including trim , buoyancy, valve operation, team management skills, rescue skills and so on (4 days of dedicated training) and this all done in a local conditions tailored exposure protection... and there is no guarantee for the card..., you cannot do it fully, no problem , just go, have the skills nailed in and come back and if you do in fact have them well done you will get your plastic. When people tell me about how expensive a GUE course is I laugh.

To be honest I'm just afraid that courses like those from GUE and UTD will not survive overtime. I hope they would. The instant gratification mentality of our society gives them little chance. And many do not want to buy skills, they want to buy cards.

And this is not agency bashing.... when you present valid arguments it is not bashing any more....

[carrielsal]

I have considered going to a drysuit, but never used one. Don't you have enough air in your BC to float you even if you forget to connect the drysuit hose?

It would be just like diving wet, but it sure would not be a comfortable dive. Think of a drysuit like a bag attached to a foodsave vacuum sealer. The farther down you go, the tighter the squeeze. I have to start adding air to my suit no later than 10'. I took my Cavern/Intro to Cave in a drysuit. To get into Devils Ear, you have to pull yourself down at an angle against a high flow. The first time I tried it I decided to add a little air to my DS at 30'. Bad move. I lost my grip on the cave walls. The second attempt I didn't add any air to my DS. By the time I got to the bottom which was about 50' I thought I was going to pass out from DS squeeze.

[Mike Boswell]

Gives you a new perspective on shrinkage. I've only used neoprene. Floating is not the issue with dry diving. Suit squeeze feels like someone has wrapped a knotted wet towel around your crotch and is twisting it with a stick.


AHA! Now I understand completely.

That's the same feeling I get whenever I see a new thread about "Diver Training".:D

Thanks for the explanation.

[fire_diver]

It would be just like diving wet, but it sure would not be a comfortable dive. Think of a drysuit like a bag attached to a foodsave vacuum sealer. The farther down you go, the tighter the squeeze. I have to start adding air to my suit no later than 10'. I took my Cavern/Intro to Cave in a drysuit. To get into Devils Ear, you have to pull yourself down at an angle against a high flow. The first time I tried it I decided to add a little air to my DS at 30'. Bad move. I lost my grip on the cave walls. The second attempt I didn't add any air to my DS. By the time I got to the bottom which was about 50' I thought I was going to pass out from DS squeeze.

That's not a fault of the drysuit. It sounds like you are seriously underweighted for the local conditions.

[wrybosome]

Hijack!

Actually I think the question I have extends the OP instead of hijacking so I'll ask. YMMV.

I have decent buoyancy and trim, if not great. I've dived with people who were fish-like in their ability to hover in one spot motionless. I always have to do at least a slow turn or something when hovering because I can't stay that still.

Outside of a class setting, what are some ideas for things you can do on your own to improve buoyancy control? I always take the chance to do a swim through of an object, or shoot a bag while staying horizontal and holding depth. Hold a depth on a heading to get to a known point.

How did you buoyancy masters master it? What are your tricks for getting from OK to great? How did you find that point where you could just hover?

[fire_diver]

Wry, you can improve just like the masters did. Dive, dive dive! You sound like you already have basics, now it's just a matter of practice makes perfect.

[wrybosome]

Wry, you can improve just like the masters did. Dive, dive dive! You sound like you already have basics, now it's just a matter of practice makes perfect.

Ha, I never claimed to be patient Fire Diver. I was dive, dive, diving this weekend with a guy who doesn't seem to ever move...or breathe. It was actually spooky. He just glided like that nun in the Blues Brothers.

[Randy43068]

Thanks, Lynne. I saw that thread, thought it was an interesting idea to explore the topic. I also found the thoughtful answers given quite good, though it's a very tricky thing since questioning personal recommendations as being unreliable is rather condescending.

I do agree to a certain extent that Fundies could be useful for lots of people, but the gear configuration requirements and the failure rate (requiring re-enrollment) mean that it's not really a course that welcomes plain old recreational divers. It takes a particular sort of diver with a certain mindset to undertake a Fundies course. So even if the performance requirements of the Fundies course could benefit everybody, the actual course itself really isn't for everybody.

I just get really tired of the agency bashing that seems to come up on so many threads. I try to ignore it, but sometimes it gets the better of me. This thread is one of those times.


Not so much. If one asks someone else about a restaurant to be good, bad or whatever, the response will be framed from past personal experience that individual has.

If the one who is being asked has never been to a finer restaurant they will not have the perspective one is looking for. Questioning a personal recommendation is not condescending at all. If one only knows balgonie, then it's going to be difficult for that person to comment about steak.

[fire_diver]

Ha, I never claimed to be patient Fire Diver. I was dive, dive, diving this weekend with a guy who doesn't seem to ever move...or breathe. It was actually spooky. He just glided like that nun in the Blues Brothers.

I know what you mean. One of my dive buddies is like that. Especially when it comes to surfacing. He crosses his arms and legs, and never touches his inflator. Holds his safety stops the same way. I am very jealous of his skill and hope to be like him one day.

[Mike Boswell]

I want to say "Thank You" to everybody who has posted here - I have learned more about trim than I thought was possible.

Okay, so now we have covered almost all there is to know about TRIM, I have one more teensy tiny question: Assuming a BP/W configuration, is it worthwhile to move the wing itself up or down a hole to try to adjust trim, or is the effect on trim so minimal as to make it unnecessary?

[NWGratefulDiver]

I want to say "Thank You" to everybody who has posted here - I have learned more about trim than I thought was possible.

Okay, so now we have covered almost all there is to know about TRIM, I have one more teensy tiny question: Assuming a BP/W configuration, is it worthwhile to move the wing itself up or down a hole to try to adjust trim, or is the effect on trim so minimal as to make it unnecessary?

It depends on the wing. Best I can suggest is try it and see how it feels. While it might affect trim, it might also introduce some side-effects you don't want ... like interfering with hose routing or even possibly how easily you can reach your valve(s).

Depends entirely on what wing you're using, and how it goes together with the rest of your rig ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[fire_diver]

Yep, what Bob said. Sorry, theres not much else worthwhile to add.

[TSandM]

It's my personal opinion that moving the wing one or one and a half inches, assuming you are properly weighted, isn't going to have much of an effect. That is quite different from moving your tanks, which are pounds negative. But at some point, all of this becomes extremely individual, because what works for me may not work for you at all. That's where Bob Sherwood comes in :)

[carrielsal]

That's not a fault of the drysuit. It sounds like you are seriously underweighted for the local conditions.

No, this is a high flow cave where the entrance drops down at a diagonal. There is no "swimming" down. You grab the sides of the cave and pull yourself down until you get to the bottom. If you lose your grip you can literally be blown out.

[Randy43068]

I want to say "Thank You" to everybody who has posted here - I have learned more about trim than I thought was possible.

Okay, so now we have covered almost all there is to know about TRIM, I have one more teensy tiny question: Assuming a BP/W configuration, is it worthwhile to move the wing itself up or down a hole to try to adjust trim, or is the effect on trim so minimal as to make it unnecessary?

I too learned a lot. For me, I'm not yet quite sure if my trim weights are placed exactly right. I'm also not sure how much effort is normal to maintain proper horizontal trim. I always wonder if I should stay horizontal when I don't put any input into it, or if staying in horz. trim is something I have to actively control. Then how much active control is normal?

I'm still learning...

[fire_diver]

I would think that it should be completely without "active" control, but I'm not sure. When I first began diving a pony, I leaned to my left (pony on left side). I could make myself hold level if I tried. After diving it a few hours, I wasn't thinking about it anymore. I was just level. The same can be said for trim. Small movements of hands or feet forward/back changes your trim some, so that becomes instinctive with practice as well.

Soooo, I guess I cant really answer your question.

[TSandM]

Eventually, you want to reach a point where, with proper posture (which really is a key part of this) and proper weight distribution, correct trim is effortless, and you can sit in the water almost indefinitely without moving anything, and you won't tilt.

If, for example, every time you are task loaded, you go head or feet down, then either you lose your posture control, or your static weighting is an issue. When you are task loaded, you forget to do whatever it is that you do to stay horizontal the rest of the time, and the weights take you where they want. This was my issue during Fundies -- I could stay in beautiful trim until you gave me something else to do. I only had to move four pounds up onto my back, and the trim problems went away.

[RJP]

Small movements of hands or feet forward/back changes your trim some, so that becomes instinctive with practice as well.



That's what's called "compensating" or "coping" mechanisms.

[fire_diver]

That's what's called "compensating" or "coping" mechanisms.

I thought the coping mechanism was what kept the voices in my head in check.

[carrielsal]

This was my issue during Fundies -- I could stay in beautiful trim until you gave me something else to do. I only had to move four pounds up onto my back, and the trim problems went away.

So you were head light? If I move small weights into the pockets of my DS, it trims me out. I know quite a few divers who do this. Even though it works for me, I don't do this very often. I wear a Fusion and it makes the pockets pull to the front in the water.

[TSandM]

Carrie, you are talking about in doubles, right? Doubles were a whole different animal. I took Fundies in a single LP 95 tank.

When I went to doubles, there was a while where I thought my trim issues were incapable of solution. I went to an Al plate and a heavier weight belt, and I was STILL head heavy. I dropped the straps and lowered the tanks, and moved the bands up as far as possible, and it was still bad.

Today, I dive the exactly same tanks, same suit, same undergarment, and I now use a 6 lb v-weight on my Al plate (too cheap to buy another SS plate :) ) and my trim, on a good day, is spot-on. I don't really know what the changes in posture were that I made, except that I must have made them, because static weighting wasn't the answer any more. There are STILL setups I can't trim out (I loathe our LP72s because of that) but I can do a lot more in a wider range than I could when I started.

The same thing is true of the single tank diver. To begin, one may really have to work hard with static weighting, but with more practice and time and truly internalizing the posture, it gets much easier.

[carrielsal]

Carrie, you are talking about in doubles, right? Doubles were a whole different animal. I took Fundies in a single LP 95 tank.

When I went to doubles, there was a while where I thought my trim issues were incapable of solution. I went to an Al plate and a heavier weight belt, and I was STILL head heavy. I dropped the straps and lowered the tanks, and moved the bands up as far as possible, and it was still bad.

Today, I dive the exactly same tanks, same suit, same undergarment, and I now use a 6 lb v-weight on my Al plate (too cheap to buy another SS plate :) ) and my trim, on a good day, is spot-on. I don't really know what the changes in posture were that I made, except that I must have made them, because static weighting wasn't the answer any more. There are STILL setups I can't trim out (I loathe our LP72s because of that) but I can do a lot more in a wider range than I could when I started.

The same thing is true of the single tank diver. To begin, one may really have to work hard with static weighting, but with more practice and time and truly internalizing the posture, it gets much easier.

Yes, in doubles. I practice with AL80's in the lake, but I have the same issue with steels, more so with shorter tanks than longer tanks. I'm 5'9".
I had someone in Florida who told me that I should not be dependant on equipment to fix my trim issues, but I do not agree (at least not when you are learning how to get into correct trim). I am sure that there are experienced tech divers who can probably swim just about any set of doubles, but that's not me....at least not at this point.

[elan]

I had someone in Florida who told me that I should not be dependant on equipment to fix my trim issues, but I do not agree (at least not when you are learning how to get into correct trim). I am sure that there are experienced tech divers who can probably swim just about any set of doubles, but that's not me....at least not at this point.

I guess you can swim any tank :) weather you can stay any tank still is a question :)

I spoke to highly experienced divers here and they all say you need to trim tanks more or less if you got all slack given by posture.

[TSandM]

Yeah, I've heard the "you can balance any gear with the right technique" story before, myself. It usually comes from some man who's tall enough that his XXL Jets are four feet behind his tanks :)

[elan]

Yeah, I've heard the "you can balance any gear with the right technique" story before, myself. It usually comes from some man who's tall enough that his XXL Jets are four feet behind his tanks :)

Or from those who wear little exposure

[jonathon50]

very interesting thread! also quite interested in the thread by the diver dry suir diving, but only putting enough air in to take off the squeeze and using the BCD for buoyancy? HUH, thought no BCD?

[Teamcasa]

Yeah, I've heard the "you can balance any gear with the right technique" story before, myself. It usually comes from some man who's tall enough that his XXL Jets are four feet behind his tanks :)

So very true.....:rofl3:

[InTheDrink]

Coming in on this late, both in terms of the thread and time of day (night) here.

Couple of new tricks that I'm finding very helpful in addition to some of the earlier posts about trim weights, bottle position, video, etc. etc. Hope I'm not repeating other posters as I haven't read the entire thread (so don't stone me :D)

1. If you feel head down, you may well be head down. Find out simply by finning and see what vertical direction you're going in. I was going south, if only only slightly. By protruding your neck and raising it so that you're eyes are going in the direction of travel (horizontal, up, down) you will do just that. I feels a little uncomfortable at first but persevere.

2. Golden pencil rule. Clench your butt cheeks like you've a pencil between them that you REALLY don't want to lose. This stabilises you in the column. Again, not terribly comfy from the off but it works.

3. Flex your scapula/shoulder blades outwards with hands in an outward position, bit like superman. Again, this balances you as a structure in the water column. Very nice for maintaining position.

Disclaimer: I've only just started playing with these refinements (advised to me by a couple of GUE guides I was with in the Red Sea a couple of weeks back) so I can't guarantee they'll work for you but they are working hard for me and they clearly worked extremely well for these guys. They really made me remember I'm still at the bottom of the learning curve.

Best of luck and enjoy!!!

J

[InTheDrink]

Oh and one last thing before beddy byes. I was diving my new BP/W rig and asked said guide for some thought in adjustments to get my trim just right. We tweaked and played around a little. I asked him how long it took him to get his rig adjusted so it was just right. A mere 4 years was the reply. He wasn't exaggerating either. So remember, it's a journey, not an event and we'll all get there in the end if we think about it and focus on it enough.

J