Buddy Line!!!

[Harvo]

Have you used a buddy line and it gets tangled up or in the way. Try placing a fishing bulber in the middle of the line.
It will keep the line in a upside down "V" shape between you and your buddy.

Does any one do this?

[Walter]

I've never had a problem, but then polyprop floats.

[Northeastwrecks]

Harvo once bubbled...
Have you used a buddy line and it gets tangled up or in the way. Try placing a fishing bulber in the middle of the line.
It will keep the line in a upside down "V" shape between you and your buddy.

Does any one do this?

No. I have never used a buddy line.

Doesn't this solve a problem that should not exist in the first place? I ask because it seems to me that this creates far more problems than it solves, particularly including a very real possibility of entanglement.

What purpose does a line serve and how is it better than proper team skills?

[norcaldiver]

I agree. On paper this seems great, but in reality doesn't this create more potential problems than it's worth

[DA Aquamaster]

I agree a buddy line is a serious entanglement risk, but then I dive in reservoirs that still have trees in them. In cases where near zero vis is encountered, close coordination by the divers is more important and in short stretches of zero viz, physical contact can be maintained.

On a dive this weekend we were at 130 ft with limited viz and generally low light conditions. I was towing the legally required dive flag/entanglement hazard (that boaters ignore anyway) and had to roll about 120 degree occasionally to ensure the flag line was tracking properly between the trees. After one roll I managed to snag a web of monofilment that had caught in between the trees over the years. The last thing I would have needed with a dive flag, the need to roll on my side/back and the need to clear monofilament line at 130 ft in the dark in low viz would have been a buddy line. The additional task loading would have been bad enough but being pulled further into the mono line mess by a buddy on the other end of the buddy line (who had just skimmed over the top of the tangle of line) would have be very unsafe.

[Knavey]

I think where Harvo is referring to is for the conditions we tried diving in this weekend. No vis to 1 foot vis with no entanglment risk.

Beach diving for sharks teeth off of Venice Beach.

[Northeastwrecks]

Knavey once bubbled...
I think where Harvo is referring to is for the conditions we tried diving in this weekend. No vis to 1 foot vis with no entanglment risk.

Beach diving for sharks teeth off of Venice Beach.

In other words, the same type of vis that is regularly encountered in quarries, lakes, rivers and oceans.

Touch diving protocols are just as effective and don't carry the added thrill of getting wrapped around something you didn't know was there. Passive communication using lights also works well.

I still can't see any possible justification for tying myself to another diver or for dragging a line between us. There are safer and more effective methods available.

If my buddy can't stay with me unless s/he is tied there, then I'll be in the market for a new buddy before the day is over.

[Harvo]

I dove off Venice Beach FL acouple times as Knavey said and VIS is 1 ft or less. There is no way to keep track of a buddy and look for fossils.

We have been just meeting on the surface a certain time.

With a buddy line it is good to know that help is a tug away.

[LVX]

I would have to agree that a buddy line is completely unnecessary. If you develop proper buddy skills this need is removed. As an underwater archaeologist, I am used to diving in low to 0 vis waters while looking for remains. This is done by feel as is buddy communication. If you become so preoccupied that you cannot keep in contact with your buddy you might want to think about establishing better buddy skills before you starting adding elements like a buddy line that can surely cause more problems than they solve. This is just my opinion however.

LVX

[roturner]

Harvo once bubbled...
Have you used a buddy line and it gets tangled up or in the way. Try placing a fishing bulber in the middle of the line.
It will keep the line in a upside down "V" shape between you and your buddy.

Does any one do this?

Personally I prefer to maintain physical contact with my buddy in bad viz. I'll hold on to his bcd or his hand. I think a buddy line is .....uhm ... a sub-optimal solution to the problem.

As for the hazards, someone mentinoed entanglement but I'd say that a more serious risk is the risk of getting literally dragged along with your buddy when you don't want to be. Assisting a diver in distress is hard enough without the line in the way and I've spoken to several people who have recieved DCS hits by being dragged to the surface by their buddy who was making a panic ascent. At least one diver I know of has died because of this.

R..

[Harvo]

Do you live in FL?

That is the kind of stuff I'm in to. I plan to look for fossils in the winter months in the Peace River.

I would love to have a mentor in this area.

About the buddy line, personally I perfer to meet at surface at a set time. This way in O VIS, you can look for what you want and not your buddy.

But with the line in O VIS help as stated above is a tug away.

[kavka]

Bled diving club is the only club in Slovenia where budy line is a must! There were no problems with budy line, but I still don't like it.:upset:

[Rick Murchison]

There are conditions where a buddy line is appropriate and "the easiest and safest" choice for the circumstances. The low vis shark tooth hunt is a good example of where a buddy line is better than touch-contact (if you're meeting on the surface you're diving solo - and that's an entirely different discussion). Many folks make the mistake of making their buddy line too long, and it can indeed become an entanglement hazard. My personal "sissy" line (I use it for a whole raft of things including a buddy line) is about four and a half feet long, but when using it as a buddy line I generally "choke up" on it to three feet or so. It's made of poly so it floats up with slack on its own. Although the line has a bolt snap on one end and a suicide snap on the other (for other uses) I never clip it off to myself or my buddy, but we wrap it around our hands in a way that is both secure and can be instantly released. (and hides the snaps so they can't grab fishing line on their own)
Conditions that dictate a buddy line are narrow, but they exist. I have used mine once (as a buddy line - it's seen use as a Jon line, fish stringer, lift line etc many times) recently, the first time in three or four years (several hundred dives).
I carry my sissy/buddy line on every dive.
Rick

[DennisW]

There are conditions that warrant a buddy line, I mostly use mine for hanging off the anchor line for my safety stops when it gets crowded.

When you want to keep track of your buddy at Venice Beach while hunting for sharks teeth, a buddy line is a must. Why?, because your entire concentration is on the sand in front of your face. Because of that fact, you cannot keep track of your buddy in less than 2 ft of vis. I dare you to. I won't say it can't be done, but if you do, I'll bring up more teeth than you.:)

[DA Aquamaster]

DennisW once bubbled...
There are conditions that warrant a buddy line, I mostly use mine for hanging off the anchor line for my safety stops when it gets crowded.

Sounds like a Jon line not a Buddy line. Jon lines make a lot of sense as do reef hooks in areas with strong currents.

[Walter]

A buddy line can easily double as a jon line. I was using a buddy line as a jon line long before I'd ever heard of a jon line.

[jonnythan]

DA Aquamaster once bubbled...
I agree a buddy line is a serious entanglement risk, but then I dive in reservoirs that still have trees in them.

Pactola? I went to Spearfish a few times last year and was wondering what the diving there was like...

[roturner]

DennisW once bubbled...
There are conditions that warrant a buddy line, I mostly use mine for hanging off the anchor line for my safety stops when it gets crowded.

When you want to keep track of your buddy at Venice Beach while hunting for sharks teeth, a buddy line is a must. Why?, because your entire concentration is on the sand in front of your face. Because of that fact, you cannot keep track of your buddy in less than 2 ft of vis. I dare you to. I won't say it can't be done, but if you do, I'll bring up more teeth than you.:)

I respectfully beg to differ. In your first case you describe something else, namely a jon line. A buddy line is something else; like a leash used to keep your buddy from getting too far away.

In your second case, a good buddy team would have one buddy looking for shark's teeth and the other buddy watching the team. Otherwise you're both diving solo and you should be kitted out for that.

R..

[DennisW]

I can use my buddy line as a Jon line or as a buddy line, my preference. Besides, we both want to look for shark teeth, also our preference, not yours. If you don't like it, you don't want to look for shark teeth with me. The system works well. You can like it or not, no skin off my nose.

[LVX]

I totally agree with roturner. Again, if both members of a buddy team are so preoccupied by their activities that they cannot keep track of one another then maybe a specialty course is necessary to aquaint the team to low vis diving and buddy communication. There is no excuse for loosing your buddy because you are too busy looking for sharks teeth, and I don't care if my buddy comes up with more than I do. This is about safety not how many objects I was able to retrieve.

LVX

[Walter]

A buddy line is an excellent tool if used properly in the right situation. It is not useful and is a hazard in areas such as described by DA Aquamaster. OTOH, it is a safety device in other areas. There is no need to watch your buddy every second when properly using a buddy line. A buddy line does not mean you ignore a buddy, it is a tool. It is still important to check on your buddy frequently.

[LVX]

If you are checking on your buddy frequently with a buddy line, the need for a buddy line is removed.

LVX

[Epinephelus]

All in the world a buddy line does is extend "touch contact" 3 or 4 feet! If you don't want the flexibility, then by all means don't use it. But don't go telling everyone else it's useless just because you don't want to use it.
Sheeeeesh!
E.

[roturner]

Epinephelus once bubbled...
All in the world a buddy line does is extend "touch contact" 3 or 4 feet! If you don't want the flexibility, then by all means don't use it. But don't go telling everyone else it's useless just because you don't want to use it.
Sheeeeesh!
E.

I disagree. It does extend "touch contact" but it also (1) adds to task loading (2) reduces the free room you have to dive by creating another obstacle (3) presents an entanglement hazard and (4) limits your ability to assist your buddy properly if something happens to him. And (5), if you're inexperienced, then it ensures that you will be directly involved in any lack of control he has over his bouyancy. We talk to great length about RGBM vs Haldane on these forums with the objective of limiting DCS risk but we talk about the buddyline as an innocuous "tool" even though it may have a much greater impact on your DCS risk (especially with a buddy having poor bouyancy control) than any computer on the market. All (and I am not kidding) ALL of the divers I've talked to who have had DCS hits from uncontrolled ascents were dragged to the surface by buddies on buddy-lines. In one such case the diver in question even managed to kill his buddy with an uncontrolled ascent on a buddy line from 50 (yeah count 'em) 50 metres. I might have more contact with divers using buddylines than most because the largest dive-organisation where I live (+/-50,000 members) mandates buddyline use so I see them almost every day. I've even used them myself for activities very similar to the shark-tooth guy but the more I see it, the more I see the consequences and the more I see the benefits of *proper* applicatoin of the buddy system the more convinced I am that a buddyline does *not* belong in the list of best-practices in diving.

If you *want* a buddy line because you're doing something like the shark tooth guy then ok, I can see that. If you think you *need* a buddy line to dive safely then you're not ready to dive in open water. Full stop.

Walter: A question to you. For all of the wise and critically astute things you say I'm utterly dumbfounded that you would advocate using a buddy line. Why?

R..

[Glub]

DA Aquamaster once bubbled...


Sounds like a Jon line not a Buddy line. Jon lines make a lot of sense as do reef hooks in areas with strong currents.

I know what a Jon line is, I know what a buddy line is but what is a reef hook?

From context - I am guessing it is a hook you "anchor in" when facing strong currents? Is this correct? If it is, sure beats trying to hold on. Does anyone have a picture or link or description of a reef hook?

Thanks

[Harvo]

First of all I dont see a problem solo diving in water less then 25 feet.

I went diving today at Venice FL, I did not use a buddy line the VIS was 5 feet and I lost my buddy at least 5X's. The last time I was getting ready to surface and I felt a tug on my dive flag line, I figured he surfaced.

So I went up and he was not there, our dive flags got tangled up. I then followed his line down and begin searching again.

WALTER- I found my First MEGALONDON itis 2 3/4" from botton to outside top. I will try and upload a picture for everyone to see.

[DA Aquamaster]

Glub once bubbled...


I know what a Jon line is, I know what a buddy line is but what is a reef hook?

From context - I am guessing it is a hook you "anchor in" when facing strong currents? Is this correct? If it is, sure beats trying to hold on. Does anyone have a picture or link or description of a reef hook?

A reef hook is a small metal hook attached to a short line that you hook into the subtrate or rocks underlying the reef. (you don't want to plant it in the middle of a living coral head.) I am not aware of anyone who sells them and they are a little controversial, particularly with the extreme folks who think divers should not wear gloves to ensure they don't touch the reef.

Personally, I think using a reef hook is a far better option for a diver than holding onto the reef in a current and I think they offer saftey advantages if a down current is encountered. A reef hook also has applications in freshwater where a diver may be diving in a river with a rocky bottom and strong current.

A reef hook may not be all you need however. In my expereince I have noted that many regs with soft rubber or large sized purge buttons or large forward facing holes in the front cover will free flow when hooked on and looking up current. It's one of the reasons I switched to a D400 second stage several years ago.

This link covers the controversy as well as how to make one.

http://www.divernet.com/technique/0101hook.htm

[Epinephelus]

roturner once bubbled...


I disagree. It does extend "touch contact" but it also (1) adds to task loading Pure BS. It is much easier to maintain touch contact with a short buddy line running from hand to hand than any other way. It reduces task loading considerably, allowing each diver to concentrate on other tasks than maintaining contact.
(2) reduces the free room you have to dive by creating another obstacle And your point is? Touch contact by its nature reduces the free room you have to dive. I do not understand what you mean by "obstacle" in this context.
(3) presents an entanglement hazard While this is intuitively true, in thirty years of diving and using a buddy line in those limited circumstances where it was warranted I have never had a problem with entanglement.

(4) limits your ability to assist your buddy properly if something happens to him.Pure BS again. A buddy line provides a calming factor in the first place by easing the task of keeping track of one another, and provides instant access to your buddy should you or he experience any problem.
And (5), if you're inexperienced, then it ensures that you will be directly involved in any lack of control he has over his bouyancy.I'll grant you that. But I am not inexperienced.
Your post here tells me one thing loud and clear - you have zero experience in the proper use of a buddy line, and you're right - it would be a hazard for you.
As for me - and Walter and Rick - we'll use 'em when they're warranted, because it will be safer than to not use one.
E.

[Knavey]

Harvo once bubbled...
First of all I dont see a problem solo diving in water less then 25 feet.

I went diving today at Venice FL, I did not use a buddy line the VIS was 5 feet and I lost my buddy at least 5X's. The last time I was getting ready to surface and I felt a tug on my dive flag line, I figured he surfaced.

So I went up and he was not there, our dive flags got tangled up. I then followed his line down and begin searching again.

WALTER- I found my First MEGALONDON itis 2 3/4" from botton to outside top. I will try and upload a picture for everyone to see.

Where's that picture Harvo?

I want to see it!

[ScottyK]

We use a buddy line for tropical fish hunting in shallow, sandy conditions where we are "task loaded" already by looking for fish. Having to look after each other without the line would further add to our load.

Any entanglement hazard can be eliminated by proper design. I made a DIY buddy line out of two dog leashes, cut off, and sewn together. Our wrists are loosely looped through the handles, and it can easily be let go of by either of us as needed. We in fact have to often as we go into team capture mode as soon as one of us spots something.

This helps us avoid having to surface if we lose one another as we do this in an area with a fair amount of boat traffic.

There are plenty of dives we do that a buddy line would be a hazard, and it stays home then. The point is to keep an open mind.

[Glub]

Thanks!



DA Aquamaster once bubbled...


A reef hook is a small metal hook attached to a short line that you hook into the subtrate or rocks underlying the reef. (you don't want to plant it in the middle of a living coral head.) I am not aware of anyone who sells them and they are a little controversial, particularly with the extreme folks who think divers should not wear gloves to ensure they don't touch the reef.

Personally, I think using a reef hook is a far better option for a diver than holding onto the reef in a current and I think they offer saftey advantages if a down current is encountered. A reef hook also has applications in freshwater where a diver may be diving in a river with a rocky bottom and strong current.

A reef hook may not be all you need however. In my expereince I have noted that many regs with soft rubber or large sized purge buttons or large forward facing holes in the front cover will free flow when hooked on and looking up current. It's one of the reasons I switched to a D400 second stage several years ago.

This link covers the controversy as well as how to make one.

http://www.divernet.com/technique/0101hook.htm

[Harvo]

I found my First MEGALONDON itis 2 3/4" from botton to outside top. I will try and upload a picture for everyone to see.

[WVMike]

Walter once bubbled...
A buddy line can easily double as a jon line. I was using a buddy line as a jon line long before I'd ever heard of a jon line.

Now I know what a buddy line is and the pros and cons. I have also learned what a reef line is. Can someone define the jon line for me.

thanks

[ScottyK]

A jon line has a clip at the end that you can attach to the anchor line. The two uses for one that I know of are:

1- Extra security when doing a deco/safety stop in a strong current.

2- Allows you to hang away from the line if there is a crowd stopped at the same depth you are.

Scott

[WVMike]

ScottyK once bubbled...
A jon line has a clip at the end that you can attach to the anchor line. The two uses for one that I know of are:

1- Extra security when doing a deco/safety stop in a strong current.

2- Allows you to hang away from the line if there is a crowd stopped at the same depth you are.

Scott

The anchor line got pretty crowded at 15 feet on the last Blackbeards trip I did. Could have used one of these. Plus some of the mooring lines (ropes) we used had some kind of sea lice on them that caused an itchy rash.

[ScottyK]

If you were clipped off with a jon line you would have had both hands free to scratch yourself :D

[WVMike]

Just look at all the SCUBA related things I have learned in one day.

That would be item number three in Jon line usage.

Lice rash scratching to pass the time on safety stops.:devious:

[Dyno Bill]

Wow, reading this thread is enlightening. I live and dive in So Cal and the vis is usually 25- 100 feet at the islands. I have dove in 0 vis but I was being paid to find something at the time. To me diving is a visual sport and its hard to imagine diving poor vis with strong currents as a norm. We do have both out here but not on an ongoing basis. I use my buddy lines to hang gear at the stern of my boat after a dive is done. Maybe I'm spoiled a bit. Dive safe
Bill

[El Orans]

Harvo once bubbled...
Have you used a buddy line and it gets tangled up or in the way. Try placing a fishing bulber in the middle of the line.
It will keep the line in a upside down "V" shape between you and your buddy.

Does any one do this?

My buddy line had that one I got it from the store.
Only used it once. Not with good results. We're still arguing who made the inital bouyancy error thats caused the 2 of us to end up at the surface (involuntarily) :upset:

[Harvo]

Dynobill- the area that started this topic is on the gulf side of FL. Venice Beach, it is the shark tooth captial. The Vis ranges from 25 ft to almost "0" 6 inces. With Vis. being less then 2 ft. It is impossible to search for teeth and keep an eye on your buddy.

[Dyno Bill]

Harvo, thanks for the explanation. It would be a challenge searching for something in 2 foot vis. I have read threads on your Venice beach here, they are interesting to me as we have our own Venice Beach here in So Cal. I guaratee that the west coast Venice is different than the east coast version. Look it up on the net, you might find it interesting also. It is worl famous for weird but I am very sure that there are no sharks teeth here.....LOL
Bill

[pipedope]

Impossible to search for something in 2' vis??????
Man that is FANTASTIC vis for searching!
Most every case where I have been searching for something the vis was 0 inches.

Now, for searching in 0 vis a prefer a different system. It is called surface supplied with a tender. Coms can be voice or just pull signals on the tether. This way the diver can concentrate on the task at hand and still be protected.

Pick the tools and systems best for the task at hand and use them in the safest manner possible. If the risk is too high for you own comfort level at the time, don't do the dive.

Do what you want.
But know what you do.

[Harvo]

Pipe... you are right 2ft is good vis for searching. Its hard to keep track of a buddy in the process.

I personally have no problem solo diving.

This is a sore subject for some people.
More people die driving a car and they dont have buddies (sometimes) haha.

[miketsp]

I know this is an old thread but I just thought I would add my 2cents as a regular user of buddy lines on low viz dives. My buddy is the same on 99% of my dives - my wife, and so we are well accustomed to each others diving habits but in certain circumstances I consider the buddy line definitely reduces work loading. During (external) wreck dives with low viz so bad that it is just too easy to lose the wreck never mind keep worrying where your partner is. Often these were coupled with surface current so the best way back to the boat was via the anchor line. Combine this with depth over 20m and the last thing you want is to have to pop up to the surface to find your buddy.
I saw the comment about an uncontrolled ascent pulling the other partner to the surface. My experience is exactly the contrary and I am sure many lives have been saved by buddy lines. If I feel I am being pulled up suddenly I dump air, quickly shorten the line and dump my partners BC. A situation averted. I speak from experience.
Finally, in a situation where we spent a long time drifting on the surface waiting for some passing boat to pick us up after the tidal flow did not behave according to the tide tables, the buddy line kept us together with minimum effort, without constant finning.
What I use for a buddy line is a 2m elastic rubber bungee cord 5mm diameter (about 1/4"), with a knotted loop at each end. The loops are just big enough to easily fit over a gloved hand which leaves about 1m50 (4-5ft) of free line. The elasticity makes it easy to take the loops off the wrist. Often when changing direction and or going around corners the process of changing wrists comes automatically and simple.
So I always carry one in my BC pocket and use it when we feel it is convenient.

[Walter]

A reef hook is a grappling hook used to remain in one place against a strong current.