Titanium and/or Ceramic knives..

[Duca]

I was glad to see Ti knives mentioned in the rust thread. I was in one dive shop last week where I was told that "only knife handles are made of titanim, because it is too hard to sharpen" when I asked about a Ti dive knife. Sheesh!

What brand of Ti knives are you guys using?

I am new to diving, but very famliar with Ti knives from Mission ( am I probably going to buy an MPT for diving very soon).

I own a MD Mirage X Micro also, which is Ceramic with a rubber handle material. The knife was designed for people wanting a knife that was 100% non-conducting, with absolutely no magnetic signature (Ti DOES set off sensitive magnetometers) and resistance to all types of chemical interactions. Seems like Cermics would be pretty good for a dive knife also...
Here's a link to MD's site:
http://www.mdenterprise.com/miragex.htm

What are your thoughts?

[Mverick]

It's extremely brittle. On a well used knife you'll chip the edge. They do hold there edge a long time though. But if you try to pry with it or hammer with it you'll break the blade. So if you're going to use it as a knife to cut things it's great. If you want to use it as a tool it's not.
I'd go Titanium alloy. Which is what all the knife's are that claim titanium. If it was solid titanium it would be extremely expensive and it's hard to work. Plus, it's extremely brittle too. If you drop it on the floor it would shatter. I did this with Titanium chips about the size of a potato chip and as thick as your thumb.

But I use the Remora. I think it's 316 stainless and have had no problems with corrosion. I use my knife as a tool all the time so there is no way I'd get a ceramic. I don't really like them for a carry knife either. Since I've chipped the blade on my Gerber trying to use it as a screwdriver. Man was I mad but it was my fault. I loved that knife.

[Mverick]

Oh, and I forgot to mention. I've lost about 3 or 4 knifes. I checked that site and I know I wouldn't dive with a $400 knife. I'd be to worried about loosing it. By the way. These are the type of knife that can pass through airport metal detectors. That's why the civilian model has a metal strip in it. So it will set a metal detector off. I really don't like seeing these even for sale without that strip.

[NetDoc]

Duca,

I love knives and even understand some of the mettalurgy behind them. All in all, I prefer a Stainless Steel over Titanium and Ceramics. The main reason is actually the feel and I am very familiar with the give steel has in certain situations. Ceramic knives and to a degree, titanium knives have a brittleness that I do not find suitable in emergency situations. They are great for cutting... but not for any prying at all. I want a tool that I can use without reservation, and one that I know it's limits.

Knives will never replace pry bars (grin), still when the going gets tough, I will use it as such and straighten the tip or replace the knife if need be at a later time. As for the finish, I keep my SS knife clean and oiled while out of the briny blue, and that has done wonders. It looks new. However, as my knife is utilitarian in nature, I would not hesitate to use it if the surface ahd become pitted. As long as the corrosion is limited to the surface, and the blade is s-h-a-r-p, then I will have no quibbles with it. BTW, knives should never be "razor sharp". That is fine for razors, but the edge should be far more oblique for a diving knife. A sharp knife (where the edge will not break under pressure) is safer than a dull knife!

:tease:

[Duca]

Mverick,

Most Ceramics are a far cry from the Mirage X. While they are certainly more brittle than steel knives, they are much more rugged than the standard ceramics. You can find the test data throught he link I provided. BTW, I know MD personally and he is very vigilant about who gets the standard and who gets the "C" models with the metal strip. Those of us who have the former have them for good reasons.

NetDoc,

I like knives almost as much as I like guns....
Do you have any experience with the Mission Ti alloys? They are very highly thought of by people I respect. I haven't owned one, but the tests they've been through (particularly the MPK) suggest that they would stand up to significant amounts of "emergency pressure".
If you are into mettalurgy, you might enjoy looking at the MD and Mission sites anyway.... http://www.missionknives.com/Indexframes.html

You might really like the sea water corrosion test pages on the Mission Site. The MPK used inthat test was NOT the newer Ti version.

The MPT will be my first Mission knife, though I have wanted one for a long time. If you read through either site you will be probably notice a deep seated animosity between the two companies. Like I said, I consider MD a friend and I respect his work a great deal, but I do find that the extreme competition between the companies is actualy a testament to how great all of their products are.

[NetDoc]

For some knives with history behind them, check out Randall Knives here in Orlando Fl. They were the knives that made it to the moon. I will check out that link, but probably tomorrow... gotta get some sleep!!!

BTW, I have two titanium knives in my collection, but I never seem to carry them. I almost always have my Gerber on me. I just use it too much.

:tease:

[Mverick]

Yea, they are pretty neat knives. I'd rather buy guns for that price myself though I do like them. But I have a lot of them that have never been shot. Kinda an investment. Low production high end models. Don't usually get too high end though. I ain't got that much cash. Barret 50 cal would be sweet. But $6000 ouch. And I get them for cost from a dealer.
And he can be very vigilant about who get's them but stuff like that always get's sold to buddies down the line. I'm not saying anything that he sells goes to the wrong people just that it can get in the wrong hands on a second or third sale. I've seen it happen. More than once.
I wan't really impressed with the saltwater tests though. When the military runs these test they use a spray booth with heated saltwater. I have a friend that is a metalurgist for a military contractor and runs these tests daily. He's told me some really neat things about the metals. They design some different alloys for there resistance. And yes, Ti alloys are standard. They do alot of anodizing work to. They also test for stregth of the metals.
I worked in the steel industry for 8 years. Aluma coat and Galvanized. Also pickle lines and Hot and cold strips. Continous cast and Molds. Learned that when steel comes out it's hard. They temper it before it leaves to soften it. I worked in a huge operation. Also worked in the lab getting the hot metal right from the BOF where the metal is poured into a ladle to be brought to either a Continous caster or a mold train. To Iron they add Aluminum,Copper, Soda Ash. Other little things to. To get the makeup right. Kick it up with some scrap and an water jacketed Oxy lance and you get steel. Now I work in the Chemical industry. Helps when trying to convince a new engineer that his Steel pump wont pump Sulfuric acid. Hastalloy C is nice stuff for Corrosion resistance to. Buy Titanium has it beat.

[Ontario Diver]

Knives and guns. Politically incorrect but what ever.

I don't trust ceramic blades. when a ceramic matrix is sharpened it get thinner then it gets brittle. They are getting better but underwater I don't want to take chances. Since I lost my favourite Gerber, I am careful what blades I take underwater. My favourite knife (other than my custom sheep's foot folder) is an original Sykes-Fairburn and I'll never take it underwater.

My feeling is that diving knives are first and foremost tools and life support equipment. I look for Blunt tip, serated edge (flat ground on one side), line cutting notch and a handle that fits my hand. Stainless vs Ti - well, we had that argument in Golf Clubs and both still work. If you knife aint sharp, don't matter what it is made of. Take care of it no matter what it is and replace it when it is time. That's my two cents.

And hey, Mverick; the M82A1 Light fifty is nice and I like it better than a A2. But for the money, I'd get something like a Parker-Hale in Win300. Shoots almost as accurate up to 800 meters and I don't know many ranges that are longer than that (other than Tank or Arty ranges). And the rounds are cheaper and easier to find. Of course after 120mm smooth bore APFSDS shooting, well you know.....

[Mverick]

I don't know which I'd want. The 95 Bullpup or the 82A1. And I don't know how much I'd shoot it. I just think they are cool. I love the huge clamshell muzzle break.
Most of mine I shoot are the mini 14 stainless ranch. Winchester LRH 7mm, H&K G3 308, etc. I really like my 22s also. Have a nice 52b and a 10/22 with a Volquarten barrel and Hogue stock. It's a tack driver. Great for squirel. Light and accurate. 22mag's are fun to. For Deer a Browning A bolt 12 gauge. Birds are happy with a Browning Citori 12. Wanna get a 28 gauge sometime though. For pistols I like the USP's. Have a Sprinfield Armory Ultra compact v10. I sent it back to them 4 times and they never got it right. Finally I did it myself. I'll never buy from them again. Also have a couple of nice non shooters. AR-15 from the Colt Custom shop. Bought before they bailed out on us. Never buy another Colt either. 1886 take down. Had to get one of those. A gun that comes apart that was made at the factory, not sent out and redone. Got a bunch more to. Guns are fun to shoot. Gotta respect them though.

This is getting to long for a dive site whoops. The only reason I wouldn't buy a Titanium dive knife is price. I use and loose them to much. On Ceramics I just think I'd break it. I like a small knife like my remora too. I can pry with it enough. If I need anything bigger I shoulda brought a crow bar.

[NetDoc]

This I can not relate to... The last knife I lost was back in heavy surf in '72. Yes, I have broken a few tips here and there, but I have salvaged every one of them. I guess its that Tool mindset... I am also a certified Automotive Master Technician. You should always know where your tool is and what you've got it stuck into.

:tease:

[Ontario Diver]

Pete; I know that it is no excuse but I had some "help" and I wasn't going to go to 130 to get it back.

But now that I have the new BINFORD Dive 3000 (Stainless steel handle with a Ti blade and ceramic teeth , 14" long with a intergral pipe cutter, cork screw, and shovel); I can dump about 12 lbs off my weight belt.

<Grin>

[Duca]

I owned a MAgnum Research Single Shot .50BMG for several years, but it got boring, so I sold it to a buddy. As far as battle rifles, I bought an AR-10 last year that is Soooosweeeeet. Still, the first gun I go for on a bad day (or when my pager goes off) is a Glock .40, second would be an AR in .223.

Meanwhile, I bought a Tekna "dive tool" (is that PADI for Knife?) for $25 to use this weekend.

I have a lot of cool knives, some custom and some "collectable," but my daily knives are either Benchmade auto folders or a CQC-7...not cheap, but not outrageous either. (Although,when hunting I carry a custom Mad Dog creation.) At the end of the day, I will probably end up with similar dive knives: High Quality, but not extravegant.

[NetDoc]

Hey OD,

Is that the one with the silenced speargun, and the 10X scope??? The magnum version comes with a dedicated 30 cft pony bottle stashed in the handle!!! Of course you can always swap the pony blttle out for a 3 litre container of dehydrated water. I was hoping to get one of those for Christmas. I understand it can even be used to determine "up"... what a cool knife!

:tease:

[Mverick]

YYYEEEEEEOOOCHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
That single shot 50 had to hurt when you fired it. Love to blue my shoulder with one. And I'd love to get an AR 10 myself. A few friends have them and they are sweeet. The Glocks are pretty indestructable. Great shooters. But I don't like the angle of the grip. Just personel preference. That's why I like the HK usp's. And I like the 357 over the 40. But I don't have to carry one either. I don't like reloading the 357 though. Just like it's ballistics. The one I keep with me though is a cheap reliable 357 revolver. Ported with a 2in barrel. Loud and a handfull. But if you miss it's so loud it will scare the heck out of somebody. Great fun at the range to. Ports look like a dragon at night. First I grab is a custom 1100. 00Buck and slugs. Home protection. But for out of the house I'd have to grab an AR myself. They are great all around guns.
My knives are kinda regular. Have about 8 Hen and Roosters. Couple of Gerbers and Bucks. Nothing really special.
If we start talking about Home brewing and Custom suspension Jeeps, I'm home.

[Scubaroo]

Hey Mverick,

Did you see that thread on red-neck divers a little while ago? :)

Funny how you never see the old 50 cal in many hunting mags - bet those surplus FMJ rounds would work a treat on a feral pig (and the pig behind it, and the pig behind that one, and the pig behind... )! There was a bolt-action one available in Australia a few years ago made by Jongmanns or someone, always thought they'd make a pretty neat range rifle.

I've got one of those cheap clunky Oceanic knifes that lets me take 2lb of lead out of my vest... wishing I'd bought one of those little BC clip-on jobs now, and maybe a pair of $4 shears or a linecutter.

[Duca]

.50 for Hogs? That's what knives are for! (no, really... I've got it on video tape.... and yes, I would like to kill a shark with a speargun eventually.)

I had to carry a full size USP for almost two years.. and it was DAO...even on the SWAT team!!! AARRGGGHHHH.... No thanks, the dept I'm with now lets me carry a trusty Glock.

The .50 I had weighed just over 30 lbs and had a massive muzzle break. If you got it balanced right you could fire it fromthe shoulder.. but it was meant to be fired from a tripod... the kick was about like a magnum slug from a pump shotgun.


Okay, I have to ask: Who's done some practical research on using firearms underwater... I've heard all the anecdotes, but has anyone BTDT? I know some people who say it's no problem, although an auto won't cycle.

[GP]

Anyone use the Ocean Master Titanium knife? It looks pretty cool but I'm wondering how good the quality of it is.

[Ontario Diver]

GP;

I have the Ocean Master in stainless steel. It is the same as the Ti model. I got mine in Blunt tip.

It fits well in my hand even with a glove on. Wearing cold water gloves, this is a good thing. the positive lock is good and one again workable with gloves on. It had all the things I wanted in a good blade. Blunt tip, line cutting nothch, flat blade and serated blade.

It is a full size grip (good) and a full size blade (not so good). I find that it works well for me but I have "smaller" friends who find it too large. It is a decent working tool, in my opinion.

Only rarely has somebody called it the "Scuba Machete" to my face <grin>.

[GP]

Ontario Diver, do you use the leg mount holster that they sell or do you mount it on your BC. I am wondering how you actually mount knives on BC's.

[Ontario Diver]

GP, I mount my knife on the inside of my leg using the straps provided. I looked at a BC mount; but I use a tech BC and the knife feels (for me) just too big for my BC. Especially, with the proper (ie. big) handle.

If you get the OceanMaster, I'd suggest putting the Ocean Master on you leg and get a specially designed BC knife for your BC (Or a dive tool or a line cutter or shears or a bottle opener <G>) As long as you take care of your gear, replace it when you should, and are comfortable in it, that is the main thing.

As always check with your LDS and get some good advice that based on your diving activities, your existing gear, and your diving environment.

(But be sure to check out the BINFORD dive 3000!)