JohnCollins
Guest
I've come back to diving after a decade-long layoff and found myself intrigued by all the sturm und drang over this DIR debate. Seajay seems pretty knowledgeable about it, so I PM'd him and this ensued. With his permission, of course, I'm posting it here because I think it's an interesting and worthwhile debate, but apparently, a lot of pretty weird ideas about it are floating around and it could be a little more civil. I don't know anything about DIR except what I've read here and in the DIR Fundamentals book. I'm not an apologist, but I like many of their ideas. I am no expert, I just thought this was interesting history.
For those who, like me, wonder what this is all about, I think this is very helpful background. Hope you enjoy it. It's just meant to be informative, not push any viewpoints, and the hope is it might cool some flames. Course it probably will fan them!
Oh well. Enjoy!
------------conversation with Seajay-----------------------
-----quotes are moi, responses are Seajay--------------
----Was full of smilies that didn't copy, Seajay is very
laid back about this whole thing, at least now -----------
quote:
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JohnCollins wrote on 08-13-2003 07:40 PM:
I was reading the GUE marketing thread again. YIKES! I've only been hanging out here for about a month, but I got the DIR-F book two weeks ago, that's how intrigued I was with it.
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That's very cool that you were so open about it.
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What's with all the angry stuff? I'm amazed at how much like an argument over religion this thing is! They've got some good ideas (GUE), but as many have said it's nothing that we haven't been taught at some point or another. It's a question of practice, mastery of skills, and mindset. What the heck is wrong with that?
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Bingo. You're absolutely right.
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How did this get so ugly?? You and a couple of other posters are pretty rational about it, but there's one or two on either side that are really gonna blow a gasket soon! I'm worried about us reading of someones heart attack soon.
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Well, in all fairness, I haven't always been rational about it... Either way. I was, at one point, passionately AGAINST DIR because I felt threatened by someone who wanted to tell me that my diving was "wrong." After I took DIR-F, I wanted to help everyone see what I had seen.
Now I'm pretty lax about it... Wanting to help, if I can, but knowing that not everyone is ready to hear the truth.
It's easy to get caught up in the fine points... Like whether or not to use a snorkel, the specific gear configurations, and the like. A lot of these guys - on both sides of the debate - have been diving for many years... In some case, decades... With or without GUE practices.
...So when someone gets online and says, "You must ascend/descend horizontally," or "Snorkels bad," or "Backplates and wings rock," there's bound to be heavy opinions on both sides.
If you do a search, you'll see that the DIR vs. The World debate has gone on a long time.
On this particular board, DIR guys are nearly as numerous as non-DIR guys... So the debate is fueled by heavy opinions - and lots of experience - on both sides. The result is that the flames can get REALLY hot.
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What I don't understand is that all this revolves around the standards an instructor demands from his/her students. It really isn't about the organization they teach for. There's really not much difference between their written standards. Some instructors are sloppy, some are strict. Some divers are conscientious about their skills practice--like I am around guns--and some are reckless.
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Yep, you're absolutely right.
I don't know much about guns... But I believe that Glock owners are a particularly passionate group, aren't they? So when someone says, "Glocks are just big, ugly, pieces of junk that blow holes in everything," the resulting flames can get nearly religious in nature.
The funny thing is that I've seen regular "stabs" from the non-DIR crowd... Much moreso than the other way. Most DIR guys (and I'm talking about those who have REALLY taken the courses and REALLY practice the skills, not just talk about it) are pretty lighthearted and understanding. Their empathy is borne, however, out of an understanding that others just don't "get it." If they talk patronizingly (not on purpose) it can really ruffle some feathers. Admittedly, though, that thankfully doesn't happen often... And lots of times when it does, another DIR guy will PM that person and say, "Dude, you're coming across like a zealot." Honestly, I've had PM's like that before... So I lightened up.
Making matters worse are two things: First, there is a well-known DIR guy named "George Irvine" (commonly known as GI3) who is DIR, and is lead with the WKPP... A serious group of world-record holding divers. He's just flat harsh... Well known for his concrete opinions and drill-instructor type style. He is not employed by GUE, the organization that does DIR, but he's somewhat influential, and dives regularly with those who ARE employed by GUE. His attitude is sometimes very harsh... The reason is because of the type of diving he does, and the off-the-chart regimented style he vocalizes. See, he's had buddies die (a relatively public and well-documeted event) that were NOT "doing it right" at the time. The result is that he has no patience for anyone that doesn't dive DIR. And that really ticks people off. Second, there is a "flip" side... People online who think that DIR is cool, and while they've never taken a single DIR course and never attended any GUE classes, spout off as if they know what they're talking about. When their lack of knowlege is discovered (as it will be by experienced divers) it really makes GUE look bad... Even if they were never actually trained by them. I've heard self-proclaimed DIR guys say that DIR requires all black gear and that DIR requires a strict vegetarian diet... Amongst other things. Those who don't know DIR believe this crap, and next thing you know, DIR's got a bad rep as a bunch of radical extremists.
For future reference... About 50% of the leaders at GUE choose to be vegetarian... Which is where that myth comes from. It's a coincidence, however, and GUE by no means requires divers to be "veg." And of course, any diver can wear any color they damn well choose... Although black is somewhat universal, so many experienced divers - DIR or not - choose all black gear because they never have to worry about "matching."
quote:
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What made this such an organizational fight? Surely PADI and NAUI don't think GUE is a marketing threat, do they?
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No, of course not.
However, GUE does have a bone to pick with the large organizations, really... Many times PADI and NAUI divers are taught to dive "on their knees" at the bottom of a pool... Whereas GUE believes heavily in teaching students buoyancy from the outset. GUE spends much more time on the mastery of the basics, rather than trying to cover as much ground as possible... So right off, GUE is the "unusual one" in terms of the way they teach. The big organizations don't particularly appreciate that... Or the implication that PADI and NAUI "Do It Wrong."
I have never heard any instructor - PADI, NAUI, YMCA, GUE, or whoever - badmouth another organization, by the way.
That said, I've found my GUE training to be considerably more effective than any of the others. And I'm not alone.
quote:
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They have like less than 50 qualified instructors, for cryin' out loud. They're not likely to attract a mass following, they appeal to folks like you and me who kind of appreciate the regimented (well thought out, that is) approach, and they aren't likely to ever attract a big following among sport divers. If anything, they'll have a positive effect on the enforcement of standards in the larger organizations.
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Yeah, no doubt GUE is the "underdog" here. Still, to those who are completely sold on the big organizations, it appears as though GUE is "looking for a fight" because they do things differently - more regimentedly. The term "DIR ****s" is not uncommon... In fact, I actually used it before taking DIR-F... But the joking term is pretty undeserved.
quote:
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Just curious. It's really odd to someone dropping back into diving after a decade layoff. Very odd. Was the George character I keep reading about a real flame-thrower kind of guy? Sounds like he ignited much of this.
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Yep. Flat out, he's the hardest, most opinionated guy I know. But his information, in my humble opinion, is absolutely correct. The problem is, he knows it and puts up with no substitutes.
...Which is what's required in his daily diving.
Unfortunately, that doesn't sit well with people. He doesn't care.
I will tell you, though, that while GI3 may have ignited this, he most definitely is not responsible for keeping the flames alive.
Glad you could see past all of that junk. The point is to check out the info, process it, and use what works for you. For me, it's been a transition into diving completely DIR... But that may not be for everyone.
The point - the big picture - is to enjoy your diving.
For those who, like me, wonder what this is all about, I think this is very helpful background. Hope you enjoy it. It's just meant to be informative, not push any viewpoints, and the hope is it might cool some flames. Course it probably will fan them!
Oh well. Enjoy!------------conversation with Seajay-----------------------
-----quotes are moi, responses are Seajay--------------
----Was full of smilies that didn't copy, Seajay is very
laid back about this whole thing, at least now
-----------quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JohnCollins wrote on 08-13-2003 07:40 PM:
I was reading the GUE marketing thread again. YIKES! I've only been hanging out here for about a month, but I got the DIR-F book two weeks ago, that's how intrigued I was with it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's very cool that you were so open about it.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What's with all the angry stuff? I'm amazed at how much like an argument over religion this thing is! They've got some good ideas (GUE), but as many have said it's nothing that we haven't been taught at some point or another. It's a question of practice, mastery of skills, and mindset. What the heck is wrong with that?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bingo. You're absolutely right.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How did this get so ugly?? You and a couple of other posters are pretty rational about it, but there's one or two on either side that are really gonna blow a gasket soon! I'm worried about us reading of someones heart attack soon.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, in all fairness, I haven't always been rational about it... Either way. I was, at one point, passionately AGAINST DIR because I felt threatened by someone who wanted to tell me that my diving was "wrong." After I took DIR-F, I wanted to help everyone see what I had seen.
Now I'm pretty lax about it... Wanting to help, if I can, but knowing that not everyone is ready to hear the truth.
It's easy to get caught up in the fine points... Like whether or not to use a snorkel, the specific gear configurations, and the like. A lot of these guys - on both sides of the debate - have been diving for many years... In some case, decades... With or without GUE practices.
...So when someone gets online and says, "You must ascend/descend horizontally," or "Snorkels bad," or "Backplates and wings rock," there's bound to be heavy opinions on both sides.
If you do a search, you'll see that the DIR vs. The World debate has gone on a long time.
On this particular board, DIR guys are nearly as numerous as non-DIR guys... So the debate is fueled by heavy opinions - and lots of experience - on both sides. The result is that the flames can get REALLY hot.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I don't understand is that all this revolves around the standards an instructor demands from his/her students. It really isn't about the organization they teach for. There's really not much difference between their written standards. Some instructors are sloppy, some are strict. Some divers are conscientious about their skills practice--like I am around guns--and some are reckless.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, you're absolutely right.
I don't know much about guns... But I believe that Glock owners are a particularly passionate group, aren't they? So when someone says, "Glocks are just big, ugly, pieces of junk that blow holes in everything," the resulting flames can get nearly religious in nature.
The funny thing is that I've seen regular "stabs" from the non-DIR crowd... Much moreso than the other way. Most DIR guys (and I'm talking about those who have REALLY taken the courses and REALLY practice the skills, not just talk about it) are pretty lighthearted and understanding. Their empathy is borne, however, out of an understanding that others just don't "get it." If they talk patronizingly (not on purpose) it can really ruffle some feathers. Admittedly, though, that thankfully doesn't happen often... And lots of times when it does, another DIR guy will PM that person and say, "Dude, you're coming across like a zealot." Honestly, I've had PM's like that before... So I lightened up.
Making matters worse are two things: First, there is a well-known DIR guy named "George Irvine" (commonly known as GI3) who is DIR, and is lead with the WKPP... A serious group of world-record holding divers. He's just flat harsh... Well known for his concrete opinions and drill-instructor type style. He is not employed by GUE, the organization that does DIR, but he's somewhat influential, and dives regularly with those who ARE employed by GUE. His attitude is sometimes very harsh... The reason is because of the type of diving he does, and the off-the-chart regimented style he vocalizes. See, he's had buddies die (a relatively public and well-documeted event) that were NOT "doing it right" at the time. The result is that he has no patience for anyone that doesn't dive DIR. And that really ticks people off. Second, there is a "flip" side... People online who think that DIR is cool, and while they've never taken a single DIR course and never attended any GUE classes, spout off as if they know what they're talking about. When their lack of knowlege is discovered (as it will be by experienced divers) it really makes GUE look bad... Even if they were never actually trained by them. I've heard self-proclaimed DIR guys say that DIR requires all black gear and that DIR requires a strict vegetarian diet... Amongst other things. Those who don't know DIR believe this crap, and next thing you know, DIR's got a bad rep as a bunch of radical extremists.
For future reference... About 50% of the leaders at GUE choose to be vegetarian... Which is where that myth comes from. It's a coincidence, however, and GUE by no means requires divers to be "veg." And of course, any diver can wear any color they damn well choose... Although black is somewhat universal, so many experienced divers - DIR or not - choose all black gear because they never have to worry about "matching."
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What made this such an organizational fight? Surely PADI and NAUI don't think GUE is a marketing threat, do they?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, of course not.
However, GUE does have a bone to pick with the large organizations, really... Many times PADI and NAUI divers are taught to dive "on their knees" at the bottom of a pool... Whereas GUE believes heavily in teaching students buoyancy from the outset. GUE spends much more time on the mastery of the basics, rather than trying to cover as much ground as possible... So right off, GUE is the "unusual one" in terms of the way they teach. The big organizations don't particularly appreciate that... Or the implication that PADI and NAUI "Do It Wrong."
I have never heard any instructor - PADI, NAUI, YMCA, GUE, or whoever - badmouth another organization, by the way.
That said, I've found my GUE training to be considerably more effective than any of the others. And I'm not alone.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They have like less than 50 qualified instructors, for cryin' out loud. They're not likely to attract a mass following, they appeal to folks like you and me who kind of appreciate the regimented (well thought out, that is) approach, and they aren't likely to ever attract a big following among sport divers. If anything, they'll have a positive effect on the enforcement of standards in the larger organizations.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, no doubt GUE is the "underdog" here. Still, to those who are completely sold on the big organizations, it appears as though GUE is "looking for a fight" because they do things differently - more regimentedly. The term "DIR ****s" is not uncommon... In fact, I actually used it before taking DIR-F... But the joking term is pretty undeserved.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just curious. It's really odd to someone dropping back into diving after a decade layoff. Very odd. Was the George character I keep reading about a real flame-thrower kind of guy? Sounds like he ignited much of this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep. Flat out, he's the hardest, most opinionated guy I know. But his information, in my humble opinion, is absolutely correct. The problem is, he knows it and puts up with no substitutes.
...Which is what's required in his daily diving.
Unfortunately, that doesn't sit well with people. He doesn't care.
I will tell you, though, that while GI3 may have ignited this, he most definitely is not responsible for keeping the flames alive.
Glad you could see past all of that junk. The point is to check out the info, process it, and use what works for you. For me, it's been a transition into diving completely DIR... But that may not be for everyone.
The point - the big picture - is to enjoy your diving.
