Why are rebreathers so expensive?

[alewar]

I have the impression that (like most SCUBA gear) they are in principle pretty simple devices. What makes rebreathers so expensive? The materials? or is it more the research+development+patents around them?

Forgive my ignorance.

[wilderydude83]

newer technology. expensive components.

[sea2summit]

If you've got an O2 bottle and reg you could make a O2 rebreather for less than a couple hundred. As robibler said it's about components, every rebreather has at least one very specialized part that usually has to be made by that manufacturer, often several parts, at high costs. Then on top of all that divers don't buy something that looks like it was built in the plumbing section of home depot so I'd bet 20-30% of the cost is beautification of said rebreather and appendages.

[Hyper-limits]

When I returned home with my new $8.000 Megalodon my wife took a quick look at it and ask where the rest of it was. Overall they're very simple machine. I too find that most CCR/RB are over price until I jump in the water with one.

Cheers

Al

[Rainer]

And let's not forget it's a small market, with constant technological improvements being implemented, with most manufacturers located in first world countries, and it all surely requires massive amounts of liability insurance.

[Cave Diver]

This question reminds me of the old joke "Why are divorces so expensive?"









Because they're worth it! :D

[drbill]

Rainer made the point I intended to... small markets = higher per unit prices. Maybe I'll start educating myself on "plumbing."

[RJP]

Because they're worth it! :D



As I always say, I didn't get into diving in the first place to save money. I didn't get into tech diving to save money. I don't blend TMx to save money. If/when I go to RB it's not going to be price that will make the deciding factor.

[knowone]

To keep them out of the hands of noodles.

[RJP]

To keep them out of the hands of noodles.

Economics often does keep people out of Darwin's grasp, doesn't it?

:shocked2:

[Scott L]

Being a career insurance broker all I have to say is acquire all the life insurance you will ever need before purchasing...;)

[stinkynewf]

Being a career insurance broker all I have to say is acquire all the life insurance you will ever need before purchasing...;)

And, buy your beneficiaries lube to prepare them for the screwing coming from the insurance company.

[sea2summit]

Being a career insurance broker all I have to say is acquire all the life insurance you will ever need before purchasing...;)

Spoken as someone who truly doesn't understand CCRs:shakehead:

[Scott L]

Spoken as someone who truly doesn't understand CCRs:shakehead:

I have no issues with CCRs. Technical diving in general is very problematic in acquiring individual life policies.

[Rainer]

Pretty sure he was just commenting on the increased premiums for CCR divers. As he noted, better to acquire any insurance BEFORE starting CCR training (for cash reasons, not safety ones).

[RJP]

Pretty sure he was just commenting on the increased premiums for CCR divers. As he noted, better to acquire any insurance BEFORE starting CCR training (for cash reasons, not safety ones).

I'm guessing that failing to update your policy when a material condition changes would void the policy, no?

Dec 31 - Do you sky dive? NO = the truth
Jan 1 - $1MM Policy goes in force
Jan 2 - Take up skydiving
Jan 3 - SPLAT
Jan 4 - Mrs RJP is SOL when it comes to collecting $1MM

[Rainer]

That's not how life insurance works.


I'm guessing that failing to update your policy when a material condition changes would void the policy, no?

Dec 31 - Do you sky dive? NO = the truth
Jan 1 - $1MM Policy goes in force
Jan 2 - Take up skydiving
Jan 3 - SPLAT
Jan 4 - Mrs RJP is SOL when it comes to collecting $1MM

[netmage]

I have the impression that (like most SCUBA gear) they are in principle pretty simple devices. What makes rebreathers so expensive? The materials? or is it more the research+development+patents around them?

Forgive my ignorance.

A large part of it comes down to the economics of such a small market. When your talking about a single manufacturer shipping maybe 100-200 units a year there is very little incentive to really drive down manufacturer costs with technologies like injection molding.

Take the meg for example - nearly all the physical bits are CNC milled or turned on a lathe; high end material (delrin, anodized AL, Stainless steel) and domestic labor costs associated. Then you've got some degree of markup first at manufacturer - then at reseller. The margin's on RB's is extremely slim.

Then you get into the electronics packages - which can be very simple and 'industrialized' like the Shearwater - it's platform and technology agnostic and can be implemented on just about any platform as either a monitor, controller, or integrated deco... Or the rb will have one built in house....

Some makes leverage existing commerical options - for example the rEvo uses a Draeger DSV rather than designing\manufacturing their own... If it works - and is available in quantities for other products\markets - great...

I kicked around the idea a while back on going to an internet based machine shop to make my own mccr head - project just fell to the wayside.

The apoc was supposed to deliver the first mass produced rebreather to drive cost to 1K w/o electronics - I havn't kept up with the drama - did anything ever ship?

-Tim

[Scott L]

Rainer is correct although it would assist the claims process immensely to have a material amount of time in between issuance and scary new hobbies. :shocked2:


I'm guessing that failing to update your policy when a material condition changes would void the policy, no?

Dec 31 - Do you sky dive? NO = the truth
Jan 1 - $1MM Policy goes in force
Jan 2 - Take up skydiving
Jan 3 - SPLAT
Jan 4 - Mrs RJP is SOL when it comes to collecting $1MM

[netmage]

Rainer is correct although it would assist the claims process immensely to have a material amount of time in between issuance and scary new hobbies. :shocked2:

Some interesting discussions on the topic...

The Deco Stop (http://thedecostop.com/forums/showpost.php?p=61248&postcount=12)
The Deco Stop (http://thedecostop.com/forums/showpost.php?p=337338&postcount=5)

[Scott L]

Outstanding advice.


Some interesting discussions on the topic...

The Deco Stop (http://thedecostop.com/forums/showpost.php?p=61248&postcount=12)
The Deco Stop (http://thedecostop.com/forums/showpost.php?p=337338&postcount=5)

[DiveLvr]

I would imagine good bit of the costs is to cover the added liabilty insurance the manufacturer needs to carry.

[Jxh2297]

Supply and demand

[John C. Ratliff]

I don't dive rebreathers, but have enjoyed reading about them. I dive regular scuba, on air. I also dive solo. So I keep it simple, and many times also dive vintage equipment I service myself. I also have been diving for over 50 years now.

But let me venture that all you say above is true, that insurance, supply and demand all factor into the expense. But something else does too, which has not been mentioned--product safety evaluation is also very important. Many of these systems use sophisticated computerized systems to sense oxygen levels, and add the inert ingredients (sometimes two of them, nitrogen and helium for instance). You would not want to use a system which had not been thoroughly tested, and this is a major expense.

When I bring an old double hose regulator back to life after forty years of non-use, I first take it to the pool to "qualify" it for open water. Sometimes, it doesn't make the grade, such as the DA Aqualung regulator which breaths hard enough that in a fast-moving river it could become quite a liability. At other times, I find a regulator works well both in the pool and the open water, such as the Mossback Mk III (a first stage modification for an U.S. Divers Company Aquamaster regulator).

When these rebreather manufacturers bring a new product to life, they are betting their company, and your life, that they have "qualified" this life safety apparatus to work under its design conditions every time it is used. This is why I won't even consider trying to design something like this myself. I don't have the expertise to design and test such a system. You need to understand this aspect of it too.

SeaRat

[John C. Ratliff]

I see that I did a double entry, as I'll simply ask a question: Is the price the main consideration for you rebreather divers, or is it quality of the product?

SeaRat

[Pullmyfinger]

To keep them out of the hands of noodles.

A barrier to entry is often a good thing. :-)

[rigdiver]

CE testing 5 years ago was in the order of $10,000USD per day. Just a piece of the big picture.

[flots am]

I have the impression that (like most SCUBA gear) they are in principle pretty simple devices. What makes rebreathers so expensive? The materials? or is it more the research+development+patents around them?


Keeping the manufacuturer in business on what is essentially a tiny slice of a niche market. There just isn't enough demand to keep the volume at reasonable levels.
Insurance, so that when someone removes themselves from the gene-pool by improperly using or maintaining what is essentially a portable, underwater anesthesia machine, the company won't go bankrupt when the survivors sue.
Marketing
Paying those pesky employees that want to eat nearly every day.

flots.

[craracer]

I would be sporting one in a heartbeat if it weren't for:

TSA and baggage fees
Ability to get fills/sorb in the Caribbean
My wife beating me into the ground when she sees the credit card statement

[Diogenesdemar]

To keep them out of the hands of noodles.

I dunno . . . I've seen plenty of noodles in my time with way more money than brains. Come to think of it, "someone with more money than brains" might just be my definition of a "noodle."

[WartedEmperor]

I actually think it is good that they are priced the way they are because every time I go somewhere with mine somebody will see it that is a not a good diver and want one. They usually think it is really small doubles and ask me how long can I stay down with that and I tell them around 4 hours and they are blown away. They then think that they should get one and start their training tomorrow. Some people are just not meant to own rebreathers because they don't have the right mindset. The people with the wrong mindset in my opinion are the people who always wanna jump into something. I feel that the price keeps the divers who jump into decisions away from rebreathers.

Alex

[Thalassamania]

'cause it was built on a government contract.

[tomfcrist]

I really think that the idea of a small market creating a large price tag is far fetched.....the reason its such a small market is because of the price tag associated with it. If Megladons only cost $1500, they would sell like crazy.

Its not the technology either......i have more high tech algorithms in my Iphone. The differance is that I cant take my Iphone to 600fsw.

Maybe its just the MFG's trying to keepo the market limited so that newbs dont kill themselves in record numbers? Or trying to accumulate as much money as possible so they can pay their legal fees when the family of a diver sues them because their loved one took a hit? Not saying its right or wrong, and no i dont have a problem with Rebreathers or the people who dive them....just an observation.

[jorge.a.mahauad]

because they are worth it

[ajduplessis]

To keep the fatality rate down

[bletso]

Try product liability insurance costs in a very litigious environment. If memory serves me, 25% of the cost of a Draeger Dolphin was insurance.
Dale