sems to good to be true

mogwai · Aug 19, 2003

Ok, while new aty this game i still get suspicious when something seems too good to be true. I am going to bash on with my diviing education and want to get to instructor level and maybe find a job somewhere nice doing it. So when i see advertisements offering courses with guaranteed work places at the end, i get a bit suspicious.

I have seen one course advertised in Australia, and for the princely sum of £5400 you can get instructor level qualified. This comes with a guaranteed workplace on conclusion of the course.

I have aslo seen another ad for another school that wants to give you an 'Ivy League Education' in diving. This is based in Fort Lauderdale, this too comes with dedicated job placement.

All seems a bit too nice a package. Does anyone have any experience of this type of thing. Know anyone who does, or who can put me onto someone who knows a bit more about it. Am actually thinking about writing about this but need LOTS more info. Plus i am just naturally curious. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

GQMedic · Aug 19, 2003

Job placement assistance is NOT a job guarantee..

Placement is contingient on several factors.
1. You sucessfully complete the program
2. You posess certain charasmatic attributes that an employer will find agreeable.
3. You posess certain intelectual attributes, once again, that meet with the employers ideas of what they want.
4. toss in the token unforseen "thing". or "quirk".

Sure, these places can and will "train" you. And for a "princely" sum too! Do they have legit job placement? Yes, I think they do. Is it too good to be true? No, not really. If they were comitting fraud inmasse, the police would waste no time shutting them down. They've been around a while.

But hey, what's wrong with finding a LDS near you that has a course director and rising up throug the ranks the old fashioned way?

Why do you WANT to be an instructor?

How long have you been diving?

Are you ready to make less money than a 16 year old kid working at Mc Donalds and put in more hours?

The questions I asked, don't answer me with them. They are for you, just keep the answers in the back of your mind as you find out more about what you are about to undertake. If it still sounds like it's what you want to do, hey, give it your all.

o2scuba · Aug 19, 2003

" If they were comitting fraud inmasse, the police would waste no time shutting them down. They've been around a while."

The police do NOT shut down businessess. Fraudulent practices are handled on a case by case basis in civil court. Many businessess get away with fraud for many years before putting themselves out of business. This applies to ALL business, not just diving.

You need to read between the lines. A guaranteed job, does not nessessarily mean a good paying job with a good company. Unfortunately in many cases, the job placement service puts instructors in very low paying jobs. Once you have signed a year contract and relocated to the destination, you can end up in a situation where you are stuck working for a sh*tty company.

Many dive operators (particularly in the islands) put $$ before quality. You could find yourself working for an outfit that expects you to complete the open water program with students in just 3 days. These outfits are often the ones paying bottom dollar as well. As the instructor YOU are the one whose a** is on the line if there is an incident or complaint.

Are you ready to make less mone"y than a 16 year old kid working at Mc Donalds and put in more hours?"

There are many cases where this statement is true. There are also many jobs available to QUALITY instructors that off very good pay and benefits. These positions are usually filled by instructors who have completed a lot more training than just basic "Open Water Instructor". You need to realize that "open water Instructor" is ENTRY LEVEL, just the beginning.

Instructors need to research the prospective companies prior to accepting a job.

Instructors who accept low paying positions are bringing down the pay scale for everyone.

In order to aquire a good position, one needs quality training and experience. Many training agencies push people through very quickly. In some cases just a few weeks or months.

Would you hire an attorney who got his/her degree in such a time period? One who has a diploma from some mail order university found on a match book cover? I know I would'nt. In todays business concious world, divers seeking education think the same way.

So to answer the question "is it too good to be true?"

It IS true, but there is nothing "good" about it.

With quality training, there is no reason why you could not find a great job in the industry within a couple of years.

It would be "to good to be true" to expect to acheive such success in just a few months tho.

I hope this helps. Good luck.

Andrew

GQMedic · Aug 19, 2003

Andrew,

You are not intirely right here about fraud being a civil matter. Yes, fraud is ALSO a matter of civil action, FRAUD is a felony. "shutting them down" doesn't necessarily mean putting a "closed" sign in front of the buesiness. I didn't expect anyone to take that in a litteral sense. I won't bore the board to tears with all the legal ramifications. If these places act in a manner that is criminally fradulent, it is a matter for the police. People go to jail for fraud all the time.

As mentioned, there's no guarantee of a job, it's PLACEMENT assistance these places offer. It's like life, there are NO guarantees!

You are on the mark about islands putting $$$ before quality. Too bad that exists. I am sure a good percentage of otherwise good instructors come back feeling pretty jaded, they may not even continue as instructors after such a screwing from an island resort.

I think your delving into troubled waters here with "Quality" instructors making good money. You're intimating that instructors not making good money as intructors are less than quality. You may want to edit that. I don't think you necessarily meant it to sound like that, but that is how it's rolling off the tongue.

Yes, Instructors need to do thier homework on a job before accepting it. There's a true statement and then some!

I think your context about an attorney in comparasin with some of these trade schools is out of context though. I've encountered a few trade school instructors, one I know real well, not too shabby. Especially the one I am thinking of. No, I am not overly fond of the 3 month ITC, but hey, I'm no authority on the subject. I did my ITC in a 6 month program through a shop's IT and CD. I had to rise up through the ranks, no problem, it was there for me. It worked. Do I turn my nose up at instructors from prodive, etc? No, why should I? Any other attitude about them it elitism and has no place in the modern industry.

The comment in reply to "Is it too good to be true" where you said, it's true but it's not good, once again, I don't think that's the case. Don't stick pins in this guy's ambitions. If this is what he sees as his preferred method of getting there, well, while your opinion is mosre than likely heartfelt and even of genuine good intent, it's still shooting holes in his ideas without much fact.

With quality training, it doesn't have to take a couple of years.

And no, it's not a too good to be true to expect success in a few months. Alot of these wham blam slam 3 month ITC's and IDC's hammer out some pretty sharp instructors who do succeed.

Anyway, I'm not stepping on your toes in thsi reply, just addressing some things that just arn't true. You did step on mine though and tossed out some misinformation. I don't believe that was your intent.

Would I recommend a 3 month program from newbie to instructor to someone close? No. Would I bad mouth one? No, no reason. You can get a sharp instructor from one of those places who's become a sharp instructor because they just have the stuff. You can get a real bonehead instructor from traditional rise through the ranks program too. Roll the dice there. I've bumped into some professors in college who were complete dolts with all the dysfunctions of a season of Jerry Springer episodes. I've met some pretty sharp instructors in a junior college. See what I am trying to present here?

Good debate though.

I had to bite my tongue a few times in writing this, as I am not "pro" "insta-instructor" especially with one school in particular who while I have had no dealings with as a student or customer, a family member of mine has. She knows her stuff, but they pretty well lobotomized her in the process of thier program. I don't want to get into a school slamming session, so I'll zip my trap on that one.. Bad scene, but I chose not to allow that train of thought influence what I thought of Scuba Instructor trade schools in general. I'll do better just keeping my personal feelings out of it.

Anyway, as I ramble on, I've bandied this about probably way more than necessary and wrote a book where I thought I would just hammer out a simple paragraph. Oh well. I've done worse.

o2scuba · Aug 19, 2003

GQMedic once bubbled...
Andrew,

"You are not intirely right here about fraud being a civil matter. Yes, fraud is ALSO a matter of civil action, FRAUD is a felony. "shutting them down" doesn't necessarily mean putting a "closed" sign in front of the buesiness. I didn't expect anyone to take that in a litteral sense. I won't bore the board to tears with all the legal ramifications. If these places act in a manner that is criminally fradulent, it is a matter for the police. People go to jail for fraud all the time."

You may be taking this to a higher level than the context of this discussion. Your statements insinuate that if any business delivers anything less than what is advertized or expected, that the police would "waste no time" shutting them down. Perhaps thats not what you intended, but that's how it is "rolling off the tounge". My poiont is that it takes quite a lot to constitute "fraud". It's not fraud for an agency to guarantee placement as long as they do so. That does not nessesserily mean placement in a "good job".

"I think your delving into troubled waters here with "Quality" instructors making good money. You're intimating that instructors not making good money as intructors are less than quality. You may want to edit that. I don't think you necessarily meant it to sound like that, but that is how it's rolling off the tongue."

Read again. I said there ARE good opertunities for QUALITY instructors out there. This is a short and accurate statement. Any mis interpretation is assumed and certainly not implied. There is certainly no "dig" intended there.

"Do I turn my nose up at instructors from prodive, etc? No, why should I? Any other attitude about them it elitism and has no place in the modern industry."

I don't remember accusing you of "turning your nose up". Perhaps you would like to elaborate on this comment a bit more, if I am to understand your intent.

"The comment in reply to "Is it too good to be true" where you said, it's true but it's not good, once again, I don't think that's the case. Don't stick pins in this guy's ambitions. If this is what he sees as his preferred method of getting there, well, while your opinion is mosre than likely heartfelt and even of genuine good intent, it's still shooting holes in his ideas without much fact."

It is NOT good for ads to imply that in just a few months you will be making big $$ and living a "dream" life. It takes hard work, commitment , working your way up in the industry. It IS a fantastic career, and I for one enjoy it very much. I'm not "sticking pins" in anyones ambissions. I always support people posting questions regarding becoming a dive pro. You are assuming that this individual "prefers" this method. The question was regarding "to good to be true" issues. Obviously he wants to know more details.

"With quality training, it doesn't have to take a couple of years. "

It doesn't take a couple of years to become an instructor, no. But there a few who waltz into a what most of us condsider to be a "good oppertunity", with fair pay and benefits, immediately. We work our way up as in any field.

"And no, it's not a too good to be true to expect success in a few months. Alot of these wham blam slam 3 month ITC's and IDC's hammer out some pretty sharp instructors who do succeed. "

Success is a relative term. Not sure what you mean by this. What type of "success" do YOU expect of at 3 months?

"Anyway, I'm not stepping on your toes in thsi reply"

Really?,

" You did step on mine though"

Sorry if you took it that way. Not intended. Reviewing my post, I think you may be getting just a tad defensive to take it that way. This is a friendly discussion with varying OPINIONS, and you know what they say about these.

"Would I recommend a 3 month program from newbie to instructor to someone close? No. Would I bad mouth one? No, no reason. You can get a sharp instructor from one of those places who's become a sharp instructor because they just have the stuff."

Exactly what "stuff" are you speaking of? Sure there are personal qualities that contribute to becoming good at being a SCUBA Instructor. But there is NO substitute for training, repetition, and experience.

" You can get a real bonehead instructor from traditional rise through the ranks program too. Roll the dice there. I've bumped into some professors in college who were complete dolts"

Well, we certainly agree on this one.

Best intensions...

Andrew

mogwai · Aug 19, 2003

Thought i would clear a couple of points up. One, in my post i was merely curious about these type of schools, i have no intention of going to one. Thought if i got more info it might be interesting enought for a brief article. Two i aint got no bubble to burst guys, am just looking for some info in something i am interested in. Three i am going to plod along at my lds as normal and get where i need to go, so there isn't any bubble to burst in my case. Just wanted a few opinions and a bit more info from those with more experience. Still, the replies i received were pretty interesting. Got some people thinking and some people talking, always a good thing. Cheers.

sems to good to be true

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