Reason for diving with two reg's?

[oldmossback]

Ok, I know I am going to get shot full of holes here asking this question. However, I have seen many comments and stories and explainations etc. concerning the techie diving techniques etc...........and I would really appreciate someone explaining rationally and with taste an answer to my question.

For sport diving,........what started this business of needing two regulators, twin manifold posts and God knows what else?

I've been in and out of the water for over 40 years, and I have to admit I have never read a techinical manual for tech diving........hell, I never heard of tech diving until I started subscribing to this forum and to other forums..........I was blissfully land locked diving my dirty lakes here in Texas or Cozumel, or around the South American continent and in my service time, Okinawa and California. I knew of specialized diving, but that was far far from sport diving.

I understand that there has to be some specialized gear requirements for some types of diving, IE: caving, deep wreck penatration etc. but why and how did it migrate into the sport diving field?

Again why two regulators? Are the new regs on the market that crappy that the diver must have two so if one fails he has a bailout? I think this reasoning has smothered the sport diving industry, covering it with redunancy equipment instead of cool, fun stuff.

USD (now Aqua Lung) Scuba Pro, Dacor and Sportsways (the last two now defunct as is Tekna) did not have failure problems that I am aware of, unless the diver was a absolute clown and mistreated his equipment.

Are techie's that much afraid of their gear? Or is this just a "gotta have this" enviroment now days?...........

If men were diving 200 plus feet on the Andrea Dora with single stage double hoses and the Navies of the world used USD, SP etc for decades, doesn't one think all the possible bugs would be worked out by now? That these regs are safer than breathing on your own in your sleep?

I have seen drawings, etc of some of the new regs, and save for some fancy gizmos to justify a patent, they pretty much are the same design of the original manufactures....

This gotta have two to dive business has driven the manufactures to sell the twin post manifolds exclusively......IE: there are no new single center post manifolds now......there are no new short light weight low volume tanks (38cuft or 45 cuft's) that can be utilized as small twin packages.........

a lot of the coolness and romance of diving is gone..........

don't tell me diving with small twins or large ones for that matter isn't cool, Sea Hunt got a lot of us into this in the first place.......Nelson with his double 38's was cool!!!!

I know some of you vintage guys go deep still on a single double hose, I suspect without a bailout bottle also........maybe I'm wrong there, but you still dive one reg. But we are getting on in age and the new kids have taken over.........but who told them they needed two of everything to be safe? And why?

I've have trouble when diving and my training got me out of the jams.......not a second regulator.

I'd like to have a new set of twin 38 or 40's for the diving I do, new modern steel tanks for higher pressure,..with a new hipressure single center post manifold....but nope.......there isn't a market because the techie's have sucked all the air out of the room............gadddds..................the word comes to me....techies
= new divers = lemmings

Twin engine aircraft were prized once as well, there are still some built but the General Aviation industry builds more of the single engines.........for many reasons, one of which is:

Two of something means twice as much to go wrong; twice as much to remember when you're borderline panicky!..This old adage about twin engines applies to two regulators as well I would think!......when you're busy and in trouble flying or diving.....you need to focus on your training and have a plan.......not rely on redundant equipment.


I guess I'm getting too old............but I truely believe that there is something seriously wrong with this sport today..........lack of training? Lack of common sense? or too much pandering to gadets..........

Would someone please nicely explain where I am wrong or right?

Oldmossback

[Nemrod]

I am not aware that two complete regulators is a trend in open water sport diving. In cave/tech/wreck circles double regulators and various attempts and strategies to devise fully redundant systems has been in practice (or attempted practice) since the early 70s at least.

I think that we do occasionally see the DIR/GUE trained tech divers using their full tech rig for open water but aside from these few and a few other tag-alongs, that is simply not a trend. I don't mean this in a negative, it entirely makes sense to practice with the gear you intend to use for a tech dive during open water dives that could otherwise certainly be completed safely with a standard single and octo/safe second rig instead.

The octopus/safe second as you know goes back to the 70s and it was and is a worthwhile accommodation to improved diver safety with a minimal increase in complexity and costs.

N

[Cave Diver]

Are you asking why have a second reg (first stage) or a second reg (second stage)?

[elmer fudd]

Having an octopus also means you have a spare reg for your buddy.

And there are a few mid range tanks out there, (but not many). Faber makes a 45 and there are AL40's.

As far as them manifolds go though, I think you're right. You have to buy vintage gear to get a single post manifold. Myself I'd like to make a set of triples, but if I do it I'll probably have to fabricate my own manifold.

[Nemrod]

I appreciate the rant, I guess because of my tech exposure along the way I don't get as bent out of shape (pun) as some might despite the fact that I think I am the Webster definition of minimalist scuba diver, ;).

People are very technology dependent today, they expect layers of technology to shield them and to filter the experience.

I don't think we will see a 6.9 inch 45 ever again or a widely marketed single/center post double manifold.

One big difference is that today, while there are tons of divers who dive local, the huge majority, who make the cash registers go clang, clang, are vacation divers, once or twice a year, they often don't even own a tank(s) and have no interest in any sort of local diving. You cannot put twin 50s in a suitcase so why bother with them would be their thinking. They want a jacket to help them float and trim out, they want a fancy Scuba Steve wetsuit and they want to look cool even if they have no idea what cool is. They are just having fun and as long as they stay off the reef or off the bottom, I don't care, I guess I am mellowing out.

Yes, some of us can and do dive to significant depths using a single regulator, alone, shhh, don't tell ;).

N

[AfterDark]

I use independent doubles. This is two single tanks each with a regulator mounted as doubles. My reasons are:

1. I use a lot of gas so I need 2 tanks for capacity to extend my time and range.

2. I solo dive so a redunant gas supply provides me with a second source of gas in the unlikley OOG event. (Same reason we have life vests on a boat.)

3. I don't need an octopus as the regulator I'm not using is my octo.

4. I can use them as singles to make 2 short deep dives or 2 longer shallow dive or any combination of the two.

5. The 2 steel tanks reduce the need for a lot of weight to become negitive. I was using 36 lbs. I'm down to 24lbs.

Hope this helps answer your question. You might be familar with the regulators I'm using one is a ScubaPro MK5 the other is a ScubaPro AIR Pilot both very reliable regulators built during the era your referring to. My other MK5 failed closed, no air on land during setup testing because some mush for brains "tech" used the wrong poppet / spring combo. If that had failed at depth the second regulator would have come in handy. It's not only the quality of the regulator that comes into play.

[cloudflint]

This gotta have two to dive business has driven the manufactures to sell the twin post manifolds exclusively......IE: there are no new single center post manifolds now

If it makes you feel any better ive been diving for 3-4 years and been hanging around divers all my life and i had never seen a tank with a H valve i.e. twin post manifold in my life until one of the guys in my club bought one off the internet second hand. We all find it an incredibly bizarre thing.

I do see alot of guys diving with pony bottles though which ive never really understood. Even if the worse happened and your 1st stage stopped functioning surely that's one of the reasons why we dive in pairs. It seems that the pony bottles cause more incidents than they solve through the added complexity they bring. The amount of equipment these divers are carrying for fairly shallow dives is absolutely ridiculous sometimes.

[NC Wreck Diver]

Ok, I know I am going to get shot full of holes here asking this question. However, I have seen many comments and stories and explainations etc. concerning the techie diving techniques etc...........and I would really appreciate someone explaining rationally and with taste an answer to my question.

For sport diving,........what started this business of needing two regulators, twin manifold posts and God knows what else?

I've been in and out of the water for over 40 years, and I have to admit I have never read a techinical manual for tech diving........hell, I never heard of tech diving until I started subscribing to this forum and to other forums..........I was blissfully land locked diving my dirty lakes here in Texas or Cozumel, or around the South American continent and in my service time, Okinawa and California. I knew of specialized diving, but that was far far from sport diving.

I understand that there has to be some specialized gear requirements for some types of diving, IE: caving, deep wreck penatration etc. but why and how did it migrate into the sport diving field?

Again why two regulators? Are the new regs on the market that crappy that the diver must have two so if one fails he has a bailout? I think this reasoning has smothered the sport diving industry, covering it with redunancy equipment instead of cool, fun stuff.

USD (now Aqua Lung) Scuba Pro, Dacor and Sportsways (the last two now defunct as is Tekna) did not have failure problems that I am aware of, unless the diver was a absolute clown and mistreated his equipment.

Are techie's that much afraid of their gear? Or is this just a "gotta have this" enviroment now days?...........

If men were diving 200 plus feet on the Andrea Dora with single stage double hoses and the Navies of the world used USD, SP etc for decades, doesn't one think all the possible bugs would be worked out by now? That these regs are safer than breathing on your own in your sleep?

I have seen drawings, etc of some of the new regs, and save for some fancy gizmos to justify a patent, they pretty much are the same design of the original manufactures....

This gotta have two to dive business has driven the manufactures to sell the twin post manifolds exclusively......IE: there are no new single center post manifolds now......there are no new short light weight low volume tanks (38cuft or 45 cuft's) that can be utilized as small twin packages.........

a lot of the coolness and romance of diving is gone..........

don't tell me diving with small twins or large ones for that matter isn't cool, Sea Hunt got a lot of us into this in the first place.......Nelson with his double 38's was cool!!!!

I know some of you vintage guys go deep still on a single double hose, I suspect without a bailout bottle also........maybe I'm wrong there, but you still dive one reg. But we are getting on in age and the new kids have taken over.........but who told them they needed two of everything to be safe? And why?

I've have trouble when diving and my training got me out of the jams.......not a second regulator.

I'd like to have a new set of twin 38 or 40's for the diving I do, new modern steel tanks for higher pressure,..with a new hipressure single center post manifold....but nope.......there isn't a market because the techie's have sucked all the air out of the room............gadddds..................the word comes to me....techies
= new divers = lemmings

Twin engine aircraft were prized once as well, there are still some built but the General Aviation industry builds more of the single engines.........for many reasons, one of which is:

Two of something means twice as much to go wrong; twice as much to remember when you're borderline panicky!..This old adage about twin engines applies to two regulators as well I would think!......when you're busy and in trouble flying or diving.....you need to focus on your training and have a plan.......not rely on redundant equipment.


I guess I'm getting too old............but I truely believe that there is something seriously wrong with this sport today..........lack of training? Lack of common sense? or too much pandering to gadets..........

Would someone please nicely explain where I am wrong or right?

Oldmossback

Hey Oldmossback:

OK, here is my 2 cents............I dive with doubles on every dive. I use high quality ScubaPro regulators on my rig. They have never failed me, and I do all yearly services on them, along with cleaning them every dive day (salt or fresh water). My three sets of doubles all have isolation valves on them, so, in case of any mechanical problem, I can shut down one tank, and easily use the other. It's just a matter of redundancy. We dive in our local quarry, and offshore from NY, NJ, down to NC, along with the St. Lawrence Seaway. Sometimes these conditions can be rough and tricky, so we are prepared for any contingency. Most times it's a beautiful day, and the extra gear just feels good to have along. Along with this gear, I carry a 30 cu ft pony bottle, and an AIR2 on my BC. So I dive with 3 first stages with four second stages. If I run into an OOA diver, I give him my primary, and pick up my octo, which has a necklace around my neck for instant pick up. My 30 is slung, so it's there for my use, or to hand it off to someone who needs it. There are times I come home on my pony just for the practice, and now my backgas is my redundant supply. I like to practice this, so if an OOA condition happens, I have some good training on all functions of my set up. It's not just being a gear hog, it's just thinking about and being prepared for any contingency that MAY happen underwater.

I understand your point about twin engines on aircraft and the comment about Sea Hunt. I too was a kid infactuated with Mike Nelson, and we watched the show religously. Even to the point of strapping two Quaker Oats containers on our backs when we watched the show (I was even diving doubles then!). Safe Diving to you.

[elmer fudd]

I do see alot of guys diving with pony bottles though which ive never really understood. Even if the worse happened and your 1st stage stopped functioning surely that's one of the reasons why we dive in pairs. It seems that the pony bottles cause more incidents than they solve through the added complexity they bring. The amount of equipment these divers are carrying for fairly shallow dives is absolutely ridiculous sometimes.

Some of us don't always dive in pairs.

[cloudflint]

Some of us don't always dive in pairs.

Some don't, but most do :D I can understand having a totally separate system if your diving solo but for a regular 30m or shallower dive with no decompression stops and with my buddy within arms reach ive never seen the need really.

[IJS]

If it makes you feel any better ive been diving for 3-4 years and been hanging around divers all my life and i had never seen a tank with a H valve i.e. twin post manifold in my life until one of the guys in my club bought one off the internet second hand. We all find it an incredibly bizarre thing.

I do see alot of guys diving with pony bottles though which ive never really understood. Even if the worse happened and your 1st stage stopped functioning surely that's one of the reasons why we dive in pairs. It seems that the pony bottles cause more incidents than they solve through the added complexity they bring. The amount of equipment these divers are carrying for fairly shallow dives is absolutely ridiculous sometimes.

For some people it is just a security blanket. No real reason to have it but it just makes them feel better.

[HenrikBP]

Sorry Mossback - didn't mean to get your hackles up with the 2-reg comment :D (kidding - really)

I think it's important to realize the we all dive in very different conditions, and what works for one site and set of conditions may or may not apply to another.

For me, I'm working on skills for deeper (soft overhead - deco) dives and overhead environments. People with much more experience and smarts than I have done a lot of work coming up with systems that minimize risk in those conditions. So I currently (locally) "practice" as I hope one day to "play". I.e. doubles with isolation manifold, 2 1st stages etc. etc.

I am however just thrilled when I get the chance to don a 3 mil suit and do a leisurely shallow dive in a single tank rig on a Freedom plate. One day the plan is for that single reg to be my PRAM :)

Henrik

[cloudflint]

true enough, different conditions and dive profiles will require different levels of equipment. So long as people feel safe and ARE safe then by all means im not going to complain, i would rather be ranting that people have to much redundancy than two little ;)

[oldmossback]

Thanks guys...Y'all have varied thoughts on this....I'm speaking of a second regulator, 1st and 2nd stage on a separate duel post or tank valve..........perhaps you don't see many folks in the sport with this unless they are diving with a specific task in mind, like some of you apparently do........but the manufactures have moved their way..........thus encouraging this redundancy in all diving.........

True, most of the money is in tourist diving...not in specialized parts of the sport like wreck diving etc........and there isn't a lot of change there......especially with needing twin tanks..........however, when a new diver wants to invest in twins for whatever reason, they are lead to buy a second regulator. Why? There are two valve posts on the manifold!

A single reg can support a octo..........don't need a separate second reg do you? If your buddy is needing your octo or takes your primary, he has a problem and both of you need to surface........not continue to dive.............

Diving alone or with a buddy.......perhaps the bailout bottle is necessary..for out of air situations, but that is due to poor planning, poor monitering etc....not equip malfunctions......but you don't need a 80cuft for a shallow dive to 60 feet if your dive is planned, do you?

So where is the sport diver training now?

[Nemrod]

Oldmoss, small double sets in the past were used, not to provide redundancy nor to increase air capacity, but instead to produce a low profile rig with good balance that could be worn low on the back for use with double hose regs. Today, the ONLY reason that divers go to doubles is for redundancy and increased capacity. That is the answer to your question.

N

[JamesBon92007]

Today, the ONLY reason that divers go to doubles is for redundancy and increased capacity. That is the answer to your question.
N

I just want them so I'll look "cool."

I'm with oldmossback on all this--I just look and wonder what all that stuff is supposed to be for. My dilemma is that my two daughters want to learn how to scuba dive. I have looked into training and have come to no conclusions other than my wife and I are probably going to teach them how to dive before they take a dive class. Then they can decide for themselves if and what additional stuff they might need or want. Of course my wife and I can't teach them about Nitrox or computers and maybe a couple of other things but we want to be sure they get the same thorough training we got. They can have an octopus and BC and computer and all that if they want but at least they'll know how to buddy breathe and do the dive tables and figure out how much weight they need without the BC. I have piles of electronics that don't work and didn't last very long and didn't work all that great to begin with so I'm having a lot of trouble accepting the idea of counting on an electronic gizmo that is going to be subjected to salt water under a lot of pressure and getting banged around.

[formula1mb@aol.com]

As far as I know too, back in the early days of diving, there weren't any huge steel tanks available today like the HP 100's, 120's, 130's, and 149's. So if you needed more gas the only choice would be to double up.

You can still do that today but if you want to keep it simple and have a good amount of volume, you have the option of getting one of the single steel tanks.

[oldmossback]

Nemrod,
Twin 38's hold 76 cuft of air at the plus rating........about the same as an al 80. which is bout 77cuft at 3000psi and twin 40's beat an al 80 hands down at 79cuft.
I continue to dive with twin 38's to this date......I am not a tall fellow so the short tanks are really comfortable, I can sit down in a boat or on a bench and these do not ride up like a 72 or 80...and they balance well on my back, as others who have used them can attest too..I have used a wing and backpack but now just mil. straps and a horse collar...however, I do use al. 80's when I go on trips cause that's all they have.

I'd like another sent of modern thirty eights or 40's.....prefer steel, but Wellington does not make them anymore.......and there are no modern single post single valve twin manifolds made!

I believe that if there were some enterprizing manufacture or manufactures who could develope a light weight tank in steel rated at 2475 std pressure or higher that there would be an interest in the lighter shorter tanks for normal sport diving............of course one would need a proper manifold as well..........they'd be cheaper as the extra valving would not be needed.

But it seems the trend to double redundency is making it's way into the sport diving community in general and I just wanted to know why?

[Nemrod]

Nemrod,
Twin 38's hold 76 cuft of air at the plus rating........about the same as an al 80. which is bout 77cuft at 3000psi and twin 40's beat an al 80 hands down at 79cuft.
I continue to dive with twin 38's to this date......I am not a tall fellow so the short tanks are really comfortable, I can sit down in a boat or on a bench and these do not ride up like a 72 or 80...and they balance well on my back, as others who have used them can attest too..I have used a wing and backpack but now just mil. straps and a horse collar...however, I do use al. 80's when I go on trips cause that's all they have.

I'd like another sent of modern thirty eights or 40's.....prefer steel, but Wellington does not make them anymore.......and there are no modern single post single valve twin manifolds made!

I believe that if there were some enterprizing manufacture or manufactures who could develope a light weight tank in steel rated at 2475 std pressure or higher that there would be an interest in the lighter shorter tanks for normal sport diving............of course one would need a proper manifold as well..........they'd be cheaper as the extra valving would not be needed.

But it seems the trend to double redundency is making it's way into the sport diving community in general and I just wanted to know why?

You are preaching to the choir, I fully understand what you are saying :D but you asked why and the answer I gave you is the why.

N

[duckbill]

oldmossback, diving muddy Texas lakes is technical diving. You really should be diving with two regulators, or three or four.;)

[DiverLS]

I use two regs, one as my primary and one bungied under my chin. When I can I use then on double posts so if one malfunctions (and they do) I can use the other. Also, when an OOA diver comes to you, he is not going to patiently wait for you to sort yourself out for air. The OOA diver is going to grab the one out of your mouth. If you fumble with your airII or have to unclip your octopus, you will be in trouble too. If it's bungied around your neck, you know where it is.

[parzdiver]

I think what you are seeing is an evolution in sport diving and rec-tec diving. Diving started with small tanks and to increase capacity when to doubles. At the time it was sufficient (the days when sex was safe and diving was dangerous). As cylinders got bigger, the need for doubles and manifolds became an unnecessary expense. In the cave diving world, the need for added capacity and redundancy created the isolation manifold. Since redundancy is a good thing, other folks looking for additional capacity and redundancy (deep, wreck, etc.) adopted the equipment. As "tech" diving is becoming more common for sport/recreational divers, the equipment is standardized.

It is an evolution, just like the addition of seatbelts and airbags in the car. Most of us will never need them, but they are there just in case. Will I ever have a failure where I need the isolation manifold and my second reg? I hope not, but I'm going to continue to do valve drills and shoulder stretches - JUST IN CASE.

Edit - One thing not mentioned is use of an H-Valve on a single tank. While it is added redundancy, it is a situation where the cost/benefit may not be that great, hence the lack of large scale adoption.

[halocline]

Two of something means twice as much to go wrong.....you need to focus on your training and have a plan.......not rely on redundant equipment.


First, 2 regulators/posts is standard for overhead diving, not open water. While I understand you're reminiscing about the good old days, please keep in mind that the 'good old days' of cave diving meant a lot of people died diving in them with recreational gear.

Second, two of something does NOT mean twice as much to go wrong, unless of course you need BOTH things to function safely. In redundancy, EITHER thing is enough for safety, so two of something means half as much can go wrong. I'm a little surprised that you, as someone designing a regulator, do not easily and readily understand this. Or am I missing something?

I get that you're basically lamenting the complexity of modern gear, but those arguments I quoted are simply wrong. Please don't take offense; none is intended.

[Nemrod]

I am just not seeing the trend, true, when I dive in Florida I do see other wing/bp divers and the occasional tech doubles rig but I am just not seeing this trend.

Over the last few years I do see more singles BP/wing and Hog rigging but still it is rare, though once last year in the Keys, everyone on the boat had a singles BP/wing and the captain noticed and said that was rare and in fact a first for him, a six pack full of wing/BPs even though I was rigged with a double hose on mine, ;) .

Just back from GC and I saw not a single BP/wing anywhere other than mine and perhaps one Transpac. I saw no doubles and nobody sporting two full regs. I don't think you should extrapolate the virtual Scubaboard Universe to the real world, while everyone here dives doubles and double regs and isolation manifold in a dry suit with Jets for every dive, that is not the way it is in the real world and does not represent what happens in the real world either.

N

[Nemrod]

I use two regs, one as my primary and one bungied under my chin. When I can I use then on double posts so if one malfunctions (and they do) I can use the other. Also, when an OOA diver comes to you, he is not going to patiently wait for you to sort yourself out for air. The OOA diver is going to grab the one out of your mouth. If you fumble with your airII or have to unclip your octopus, you will be in trouble too. If it's bungied around your neck, you know where it is.

Those sound like good reasons, you say the OOA diver will grab the reg from my mouth though in some 44 years of diving including in instructional context I can recall at the moment that happening only once.

If your regulators are failing at a rate sufficient to warrant your always having two even for an open water dive, you either need better equipment or better maintenance or both.

You are in the no BS Zone Vintage section where some of us have been diving for decades, not months or years and we sorta know and have experienced some of this.

N

[JamesBon92007]

Nemrod, what were the cirsumstances when the diver grabbed your reg? How deep? Was the other diver really out of air or just panicked? Why were they out of air? Did their regulator break?

Many of us used to dive (some still do) without a SPG or even a J-Valve and did this on a regualar basis without incident. I guess I'm just trying to imagine a situation where the extra gear would be needed for an open water dive without any equipment failure. Less than 80 feet, I reckon, which is where I've spend most of my time.

[Nemrod]

Nemrod, what were the cirsumstances when the diver grabbed your reg? How deep? Was the other diver really out of air or just panicked? Why were they out of air? Did their regulator break?

Many of us used to dive (some still do) without a SPG or even a J-Valve and did this on a regualar basis without incident. I guess I'm just trying to imagine a situation where the extra gear would be needed for an open water dive without any equipment failure. Less than 80 feet, I reckon, which is where I've spend most of my time.


Mr. Bond, it was many years ago, about 1974, before--before--there were octopus safe seconds in normal use. I was an AI, one of three and we were doing a check out dive for a large class of students. I had I think six with me, I think there were 20 total and the third dive was in 60 feet, hey, I worked for the shop, I was just a college kid!

One of the other AIs group apparently got split up while he was dealing with another issue, a runaway student. They had gone in about 20 minutes before my group, my group was doing well and we were cruising along when I came upon a group of three students, split away and lost from the other AI. I noticed one of them, a lady, seemed to be signaling to the other two who were not paying her any attention. I realized she was out of air, flat, bone dry!!!!! I went into Nemrod Hyper Speed just as she was about to bolt for the surface, she indeed grabbed my regulator from my mouth and was not much in a mood to share it back with me. We began a controlled ascent straight away buddy breathing as soon as I got my students and the other two together and aware that we were ALL going up and some control over the lady. We all surfaced together, all OK, all holding hands except for me and the lady who I had her facing me, mask to mask.

I ran flat out of air once myself, yeah, yeah, don't jump on me, it was circa 1984 and my wife and I had been partnered with a couple of other divers on a drift out of Ft. Lauderdale, I was given the float to tow. There was an awful lot of current that day and we were in about 90 feet of water. One of the guys in my group kept dragging behind and swimming off thus forcing me to hold into the current, it was during a time I was uber fit and I simply vacuumed the air down, one minute I had 2,000 and the next I had none, being highly fit not only allows you to be efficient in air consumption but it also allows your body to consume lot's of O2 if needed for extreme exertion and I guess my fitness level just did not register that I was working very hard. It was about then that I learned to not volunteer for towing duty nor to reveal any "credentials" that I might have, unless I am being paid. Anyways, my wife was a good twenty yards away, I signaled OOA, she and I met, we buddy breathed as we headed up. I did not yank my wife's regulator from her mouth, we calmly handled the situation and at about 50 feet I let her go and I did a leisurely free ascent exhaling all the way. After getting fussed at by the captain, we went and bought a set of safe seconds ;).

Last summer, in the Keys, on the Spiegal, I shared air with a guy, he was not OOA but he was low, he was not my buddy, I had plenty so I let him milk my 40 inch octopus, I stayed on my primary, my Royal Aqua Master double hose. He did not panic but he was concerned and it was the concern in his eyes that prompted me to check his spg and see 600 psi and he was a long way back on the wreck from the buoy line, current again.

Anyways, that is just a few, of many similar, I just don't find that people immediately go berserk and grab your regulator from your mouth especially if you have deployed your octopus and have it gurgling bubbles as you assist them getting it in their mouth. My opinion, people are less likely to panic and do weird things if you keep them close and make good eye and body contact. I am not saying they don't either sometimes panic and grab, be prepared for anything, especially if you have new divers and you are a DM/AI/I etc. I do believe that if you make good eye contact, it is reassuring to them and especially if they know you are one of their instructors and they trust you to take over and make it all warm and fuzzy and that is why the dive professional is there, to make it OK.

N

[oldmossback]

My rant as some of you called it (I had a more derogatory expression for my complaining,not fit for this forum, starts with a B and rimes with witch)......is about the demise of the old basic gear..........yes I can and do understand the need for specialized gear in the speciality diving (to use an old PADI expxression====don't shoot me) world........my rant, complaint.....b....is this has extinguished some of the older, proven and to me better pieces of equipment. And the reason Nemrod, is money!.......the market for twin manifolds apparently is focused on the tech diver as well as the concept of two regulators.....it's the tech market manufactures service......but at a price to other fields of sport diving........and now wanna be's are starting to get this same equipment. Not a flood yet....but I see it coming.

I was perusing thru the online cataloges of the tank manufactures and valve manufactures and distributors and there is nothing there I could or would use.......(I haven't looked at tanks or valve cataloges in years.....didn't need to) I was surprised, unhapply, that the tried and proven twin tank manifolds are no longer made.......the neat and compac "pony" bottles Wellington advertize are no longer made as well........I believe they were 30 and 45 cuft bottles.......So I have to continue to use these older pieces of equipment that parts are getting hard to find replacement for.

I've seen guys, and one girl here in the Texas lakes with twin manifold, two regs etc....half a dozen lights diving in a Lake?.....what on earth for?.....the only danger in a Texas lake is fishing line entanglement or getting run over by a ski boat......maybe these folks should were helmets too! Terry, we have lakes that you can make a dive at high noon and call it a night dive.

For me, one reg is enough....I do not fear regulator malfunctions, as I take care of my stuff......be it 40 feet or 150......USD, Aqua Lung, Scuba Pro and their cloned models, 1st stages (unless maintenanced badly) never fail......second stages......DH, never fail.......Single hose.....perhaps icing or debri, but not mechanical......at least not in these brands, to my knowledge.

My Mk3 should never fail as the Phoenix should never fail, unless someone badly assembles or adjusts it.......they are really just different housings for the proven USD design......I, like Luis I think, designed it because I did not like the piping, hose crossing etc, one gets with a splitter off the hooka port and banjo for the spg. To me this was not safe, but make the DH more simple and yet modern.

Other parts of this forum discuss twin posts, twin tanks etc.......I know scuba board is just a fraction of the total number of people who actually are divers in the world..est: 10 million at any one time?.....however, I see the encroachment of the techie type into what would be called normal sport diving.....maybe not this year or in the next 5 even......50 years from now, I fear divers will be amazed at the daring of old divers going into the deep with just one regulator.........this I think is the future....and I think it is silly.

Bottom line for me is this............... sport diving should be fun, to me too much equipment takes the focus off why we are under the water in the first place.....the awe, beauty, freedom and peace we find there....worrying about do I have enough gear to be safe? Regulator failure, air exhaustion, reading guages, etc.......takes away from your enjoyment of the scenes around you.......

Isn't this why trained vintage divers still use the old minimual equipment and techniques?

[oldmossback]

Matt,

Modern gear isn't anymore complex than what it was 40 years ago, save for dive computers..there is just more of it, increasing the work load of the diver........taking away his/her time enjoying their surroundings.

Yeah, there's plenty of reasons for this redundancy in speciality diving..........I do not think there is in normal sport diving. I think this trend will one day engulf all of the sport.....

[HenrikBP]

Yeah, there's plenty of reasons for this redundancy in speciality diving..........I do not think there is in normal sport diving. I think this trend will one day engulf all of the sport.....

I don't think you need to worry Mossback :) I think you're spot on that market and $$ drives the change in the marketplace wrt. what divers in general use and therefore what is produced. But I doubt big double tanks, double reg sets, long hoses, can lights and all that ever becomes "main stream".

1) only a small portion of divers and dive shops even know much about the "extended range" gear set-up (I'm not a big fan of the "Tech" moniker), so it is not what is sold in most dive shops. Those shops are more than happy to sell divers "upgrades" to replace their already perfectly adequate gear. See - there are more ways to sell divers a multitude of regulators ;)

2) most of the sport divers that see how much crap some of us take with us in the water (at least sometimes), just shake their heads in disbelief and swear they'll never do that :D

I do believe though, that we should all participate in this sport in the ways that gives us the most enjoyment, so as long as I'm having fun practicing in 30' of green water in full "get-up", well then I think that's ok too.

Henrik

[halocline]

Matt,

Modern gear isn't anymore complex than what it was 40 years ago, save for dive computers..there is just more of it, increasing the work load of the diver........taking away his/her time enjoying their surroundings.


I agree in some ways, especially the sentiment that recreational divers these days are more gear-oriented and gear-dependent than in decades past. I do think that modern regulators are more complex than the old ones, just not better. Just look at the parts count for a MK25/S600 and compare that to a MK5/109. I realize that your perspective might be with the RAM nozzle that still exists as the titan, with no increase in complexity. I think that's an unusual example, though.

Of course there was the pilot, but that was 77-78, so not that old, and certainly an unusual regulator for it's time.

I suspect that what you're really referring to in this thread is the general commercialization of recreational diving, with all the associated stuff.

[oldmossback]

I suspect that what you're really referring to in this thread is the general commercialization of recreational diving, with all the associated stuff.

Exactly, plus the extinction of some pieces of gear..........ie: the small twin tank sets...single post manifolds......true they weigh a bit more than a single steel 100, but infinitly better balanced, ease of carry on your back...better for folks of shorter stature....and just cool!...........

For shallow water dives (90 max) I prefer those to a long fat tank with the approx. same vol........thats why I have two..........should have bought another two years ago when I had the chance............but I was thinking to invest in some new gear. Should have scouted the market first then..........

[duckbill]

I heard that USD is still making the solid bar single yoke manifold, selling through their commercial catalog. If that is true, it isn't extinct yet.

[captain]

I heard that USD is still making the solid bar single yoke manifold, selling through their commercial catalog. If that is true, it isn't extinct yet.

But it is costly, I heard about $700 but mostly the military buys it so there may be some extra markup, wink, wink,