Woman critical after West Van scuba diving accident - Canada [Archive]

ClarkKent

August 26th, 2010, 09:05 PM

Would you elaborate on the CPR?:confused:

Chest compressions, breaths, AED, oxygen?

35 minutes is a LONG time to perform CPR before air transportation arrives for transport to to hospital. Add time loading person in plane, flight time, landing, unload plane, transport to hospital....this conceivably took another 20-30 minutes (or more).

Driving from the beach to Vancouver General Hospital would have taken at most 29 minutes going the speed limit and stopping at signals, assuming no traffic nightmares. CPR could have been given during the transport. (Speeding with lights flashing, (or police escort) could cut the time in half, say 15 minutes to arrive at hospital)

1. Studies clearly show that CPR in the back of a moving ambulance is less the half the effectiveness of on scene stable CPR let alone inside of a helicopter.

2. The drive that google says takes 29 minutes is with no traffic. Even with lights and sirens that is at least a 30-40 minute transport time. Police escorts are dangerous and no more effective then standard emergency ambulance transport. Lights and sirens DO NOT = Double the speed!

3. ACLS was provided on scene.

4. A patient will not be put in the hyperbaric chamber while in cardiac arrest therefore on scene resuscitation (ACLS) followed by a quick 5 minute helicopter ride (5 min loading time and 2 minutes of rotar cooldown x 2) is the best care in this situation period! Early ROSC (Return of a pulse) is the priority and this is best accomplished with on scene ACLS.

5. From the beach doing ineffective CPR up to the waiting ground BLS would have taken 5-10 minutes and reduced the chance of survival to almost zero.

Respectfully, please don't make assumptions or criticize the work and or treatment provided without knowing how things in this situation work.

CPR merely buys a small bit of time before the AED arrives, and/or emergency treatment at hospital.

Very true, but not all cardiac arrests are treated with an AED, ACLS is what was needed in this circumstance.

tonka97

August 26th, 2010, 09:05 PM

Thank you Fishguy. I know you are traumatized as I would be.

I've 'been there'.

Take care.

Prayers for the diver....she needs an angel.

tonka97

August 26th, 2010, 09:32 PM

Prayers for diver.

P Stickman

August 27th, 2010, 02:19 AM

Tonka, Seriously dude! Google doesn't live here! Any given day ferry traffic on that road causes trafic backing up on the alternating three lane Lions gate bridge. Crossing through stanley park with Sunday sightseers merging with downtown traffic (and don't forget the ferry traffic... now you are in downtown... no major thruways... and you are several shopping districts and yet another bridge from VGH.

When it comes to decision making, I would trust the locals and coast guard to Google Maps info.

ClarkKent

August 27th, 2010, 03:23 AM

Just questioning the decision making. Isn't that what we do in order to learn and improve responses to accidents and injuries?

Yes, however, asking questions and making insinuations or suggesting that transport was delayed or that transporting the patient with ongoing CPR / BLS (Proven to be insufficiently effective) would be better then waiting for an Airevac based on a google map is very different. What you have suggested was done so on the basis of a google map and assumptions or presumptions and almost no fact.

I admit I get defensive and angry when people make assumptions and suggestions without all of the facts, local knowledge and education, for this I apologize in advance. So lets change this to educational.

Opportunities may have been missed in this case.

We can always do things better ....

....could have been immediately driven 13 miles to Vancouver General Hospital, with AED activated, airway established, oxygen supplied, and ACLS/CPR as indicated.

Google Traffic predicts that on a Sunday early afternoon, traffic would be FAST on that route to the hospital.

Whytecliff may appear close, and google maps may suggest a 29 minute drive, however, this is at best a 40+ minute transport time (not including extrication) with lights and sirens. The city is dense, with a large number of traffic lights and on an early Sunday afternoon in the summer there is no such thing as light traffic in Vancouver. Google is not always correct.

You must also factor in the extrication times. Whytecliff has a fairly steep and lengthy hill / steps from the beach to the parking lot. In this case, packaging + carrying the patient while doing CPR (which again would be ineffective and detrimental) would take at least 10-15 mins (The Helicopter landed on the beach).

The helicopter was launched the moment the calling party identified this as a diving accident. As a side note Ground ALS arrived at roughly the same time as the helicopter and the patient was not on the beach for 35 minutes before the helicopter arrived.

The priority in this situation is Quality CPR (Emphasis on Quality, not done while hiking up a steep incline / stairs or in the back of an Ambulance "Speeding" down the road, continuously accelerating and decelerating at every intersection) and Ventilation followed by ACLS with an end goal of ROSC (Return of Spontaneous Circulation) ASAP. This is best done at the scene in a stable environment and not in the back of a moving ambulance or helicopter.

CPR merely buys a small bit of time before the AED arrives, and/or emergency treatment at hospital.

As important as AED's are (Very IMHO) the vast majority of OOA emergency's (Hypoxia), AGE (Cardiovascular Collapse / Neuro / PE) and DCS result in a PEA / Asystole. These are types of cardiac arrest where an AED is ineffective and Quality CPR / ACLS is required.

Although ACLS can be provided enroute in a moving ambulance and is done so routinely, in a situation where the ground transport time is greater then that of waiting for an airevac and providing a higher quality of care at the scene is possible, it is better to wait. It is also worth mentioning that the helicopter landed on the beach before the first responders and BLS ambulance would have been able to get the patient to the parking lot.

Tonka, your comments although meant as a learning point cast doubt and insult ALL of the responders and yet you had almost no information when doing so and that is where I take offense on behalf of the emergency responders. Realize that your comments maybe taken as reasonable and gospel by others who know no better.

I wish the patient the best of luck and thank ALL of the Emergency Responders, Rescue Divers and all those involved for helping one of us!

Clark,

Advanced Care Paramedic (12 Years in Vancouver)
HCP BCLS/ACLS Instructor
Rescue Diver

Rick Murchison

August 27th, 2010, 08:00 AM

... I admit I get defensive and angry when people make assumptions and suggestions without all of the facts, local knowledge and education, ...No need... as we say in LA, "Y'all done real good!"
BZ
Rick

DCBC

August 27th, 2010, 08:09 AM

I'm sure that the rescuers and medical professionals have done and continue to do their best. My prayers for the victim and her family.

NWGratefulDiver

August 27th, 2010, 11:36 AM

Backup on the Lion's Gate on a Sunday afternoon is typically about 15-30 minutes ... and even if you're an ambulance with lights and siren blaring, people on the bridge have nowhere to pull over to let you pass.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

joolz

August 27th, 2010, 12:35 PM

Just questioning the decision making. Isn't that what we do in order to learn and improve responses to accidents and injuries?

Opportunities may have been missed in this case.

I wouldn't make that inference based solely on Google. From my vantage point on the beach, it was a very well executed rescue scenario, despite the fact that the outcome will in all likelihood not be good.

From what we've heard, the missing diver went without air for 11 minutes. That means it took 11 minutes from the time her buddy signaled for help to the time other divers were able to swim out to his location, drop down to 45', execute a search pattern, locate the victim, and bring her back to the surface. That's not bad.

The Coast Guard Auxiliary (all volunteers) got her out of the water -- and pulling unconscious divers on to a boat isn't as easy as it sounds. They were able to start performing CPR on the way back to shore, and saved at least 5-10 minutes in towing/egress time (which would have been hindered by the slimy, rocky bottom at low tide). The West Van police were there before the boat reached shore, followed by the fire dept and ambulance. Then the hovercraft and helicopter. And fishguy :)

Part of being a rescue diver is knowing when to defer to professionals who have more knowledge and experience. If the paramedics on the scene decided that it was best to continue performing CPR in the CGA boat when there was a helicopter 20' away, who am I to second guess that decision? There are plenty of things that clearly should have been done differently, but how the emergency personnel responded definitely isn't one of them.

tonka97

August 27th, 2010, 01:21 PM

Good information and analysis.

Thank you.

Yes, however, asking questions and making insinuations or suggesting that transport was delayed or that transporting the patient with ongoing CPR / BLS (Proven to be insufficiently effective) would be better then waiting for an Airevac based on a google map is very different. What you have suggested was done so on the basis of a google map and assumptions or presumptions and almost no fact.

I admit I get defensive and angry when people make assumptions and suggestions without all of the facts, local knowledge and education, for this I apologize in advance. So lets change this to educational.

We can always do things better ....

Whytecliff may appear close, and google maps may suggest a 29 minute drive, however, this is at best a 40+ minute transport time (not including extrication) with lights and sirens. The city is dense, with a large number of traffic lights and on an early Sunday afternoon in the summer there is no such thing as light traffic in Vancouver. Google is not always correct.

You must also factor in the extrication times. Whytecliff has a fairly steep and lengthy hill / steps from the beach to the parking lot. In this case, packaging + carrying the patient while doing CPR (which again would be ineffective and detrimental) would take at least 10-15 mins (The Helicopter landed on the beach).

The helicopter was launched the moment the calling party identified this as a diving accident. As a side note Ground ALS arrived at roughly the same time as the helicopter and the patient was not on the beach for 35 minutes before the helicopter arrived.

The priority in this situation is Quality CPR (Emphasis on Quality, not done while hiking up a steep incline / stairs or in the back of an Ambulance "Speeding" down the road, continuously accelerating and decelerating at every intersection) and Ventilation followed by ACLS with an end goal of ROSC (Return of Spontaneous Circulation) ASAP. This is best done at the scene in a stable environment and not in the back of a moving ambulance or helicopter.

As important as AED's are (Very IMHO) the vast majority of OOA emergency's (Hypoxia), AGE (Cardiovascular Collapse / Neuro / PE) and DCS result in a PEA / Asystole. These are types of cardiac arrest where an AED is ineffective and Quality CPR / ACLS is required.

Although ACLS can be provided enroute in a moving ambulance and is done so routinely, in a situation where the ground transport time is greater then that of waiting for an airevac and providing a higher quality of care at the scene is possible, it is better to wait. It is also worth mentioning that the helicopter landed on the beach before the first responders and BLS ambulance would have been able to get the patient to the parking lot.

Tonka, your comments although meant as a learning point cast doubt and insult ALL of the responders and yet you had almost no information when doing so and that is where I take offense on behalf of the emergency responders. Realize that your comments maybe taken as reasonable and gospel by others who know no better.

I wish the patient the best of luck and thank ALL of the Emergency Responders, Rescue Divers and all those involved for helping one of us!

Clark,

Advanced Care Paramedic (12 Years in Vancouver)
HCP BCLS/ACLS Instructor
Rescue Diver

swankenstein

August 27th, 2010, 02:17 PM

The day before the accident it took me a full hour to drive from Whytecliff Park to downtown Vancouver. The Lion's Gate bridge took 45 minutes to cross. I didn't have a siren though.

tonka97

August 27th, 2010, 02:33 PM

Here's another link to the story.
CTV British Columbia - Diver saves unconscious woman 14 metres underwater - CTV News (http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100823/bc_diving_drowning_100823/20100823)

I haven't found updates on the victim's condition.
Our prayers are with her and her family and friends.

Here is photo from CTV of Whytecliff Park.

DennisH

August 28th, 2010, 05:15 PM

Hey guys, I was on the beach that day too, with a friend I was taking on his first dive in the ocean after being certified in Saskatoon the week before. He saw the whole thing which is a hell of a way to start your day's diving, especially if you are on your very first dive after certification. On the plus side, he learned the graphic way to ALWAYS know how much gas he has.

As has been mentioned, the response from Coast Gaurd, BC Air Ambulance helicopter, fire and police was extraordinarily fast and seemed well co-ordinated. If anyone hears an update on the diver's condition I would appreciate hearing about it -- we are all, of course, hoping for a good outcome for her, her buddy, and her family.

For those of us in Vancouver, the guy who found her did so by deflating his BCD and floating down with the current. His name is Chris and he is an instructor at UBC. Next time you see him, thank him. He sure as hell deserves it.

John C. Ratliff

August 28th, 2010, 10:19 PM

In accident prevention we sometimes use what is called the "Five Whys" method of analysis to get toward root causes of accidents. In this case, here are some questions we can raise.

1. Why was she found at 14 meters instead of at the surface?
Answer: She was negatively buoyant.

2. Why was she negatively buoyant?
Answer: She apparently had problems at the surface, and was in an OOA situation. At the surface at the end of a dive, she should be neutrally buoyant. She must have been overweighted.

3. Why was she overweighted?
Answer: Unknown. We can only speculate here.

We have only gotten to our third question. So without knowing, how can we go further in this mental inquiry? How can we got further to root causes? Well, rather than focusing on this particular accident for the fourth and fifth question, we can look toward our overall diving situation. So in order to learn more, we need to focus a bit differently for this question, and the next two.

Being overweighted is one thing, being negatively buoyant in an OOA situation is another. We do not know her equipment, but we can ask ourselves about how we would handle a similar situation. For instance:

4. Do we have emergency alternative air supply? If she had, probably this would not have happened. Some have suggested that she should have better monitored her air or "gas," assuming it may have been nitrox. Well, that is fine except if something happens to that supply. When diving deep, consider these aspects of diving.

5. How can we become positively buoyant in a like situation? Can we dump weight? (Some put their weights into undumpable areas.) Can we drop a weight belt? I always can, but some cannot.

More after supper...

Crush

August 28th, 2010, 10:52 PM

2. Why was she negatively buoyant?
Answer: She apparently had problems at the surface, and was in an OOA situation. At the surface at the end of a dive, she should be neutrally buoyant. She must have been overweighted.

5. How can we become positively buoyant in a like situation? Can we dump weight? (Some put their weights into undumpable areas.) Can we drop a weight belt? I always can, but some cannot.

I find this accident difficult to understand - not so much the OOA part (which is easily avoided), but what happened afterward. An OW diver knows that, when dealing with a diver in distress at the surface, one of the first things you do is persuade them to drop any ditchable weight or do it for them. Seeing as how this was a new diver, I will venture to guess that she had a BC with integrated weights, so ditching would have been easy. Any rescue diver (or an OW diver from a good training program) would have known that a rescuer makes the casualty positively buoyant and the rescuer remains slightly negatively buoyant. In the case of an inadvertent loss of contact, the casualty makes it to the surface via physics while the rescuer deals with getting positive and getting to the surface.

My sincere congratulations to the rescuer - he or she is a hero. However, we can all learn from this - make sure a victim is very positive at the surface. The cost of a lost belt and some twenty pounds of weight is not worth a life.

DandyDon

August 29th, 2010, 12:23 AM

Failure to drop weights when encountering buoyancy issues on the surface is an all to common problem in these threads.

Ayisha

August 29th, 2010, 01:41 AM

I'm wondering what kind of reg the victim received when she was sharing air and if it was a reg that breathes well upside down or in any position. Many octos breathe wet when upside down and you have to donate or take them right side up. To an anxious/ panicking diver or someone who may not know to simply turn the octo right side up to get dry air, it could cause them to reject the reg and get (more) panicked. Breathing in from the very wet reg can cause the medical issues mentioned previously as well.

Whether breathing from a wet reg was an issue in this situation or not, it is a potential issue that we can avoid by using an octo that breathes well in any position or at least donating them right side up. There are a few of them available. I have the Dacor Viper, which I believe is now called the Mares MV octo. There is also the Sherwood Minimus and Apeks XTX40 that I know of.

DCBC

August 29th, 2010, 04:12 AM

Can we drop a weight belt? I always can, but some cannot.

Not to disparage the victim in anyway, but for the purpose of lessons learned, if you can't drop a weight belt, you are either incapacitated, or shouldn't be wearing one in the first-place. I would say the same about underwater rescue. Only one agency doesn't make this a requirement for OW certification. I believe that this can be a fatal mistake. The ability to rescue yourself and your buddy is an important part of a recreational diver's initial training.

Crush

August 29th, 2010, 10:54 AM

Not to disparage the victim in anyway, but for the purpose of lessons learned, if you can't drop a weight belt, you are either incapacitated, or shouldn't be wearing one in the first-place.

Hi Wayne,

I agree with you. I'd only like to point out that some schools of thought accept the inability to drop weights provided that your gear configuration has redundant lift. For example, non-ditchable weights are seen as OK to many in the BP/w crowd so long as their drysuit generates sufficient lift in the event of a wing failure. This assumes that they are competent, level-headed divers who are not over-weighted.

Only one agency doesn't make this a requirement for OW certification. I believe that this can be a fatal mistake.

Yes. And that fact continues to boggle my mind.

The ability to rescue yourself and your buddy is an important part of a recreational diver's initial training.

Personally, I see self-rescue skills and skills to rescue another as an obligation or pre-requisite to getting an OW card.

TSandM

August 29th, 2010, 01:42 PM

Before we get all wound up on dumping weights at the surface . . . does anybody know if this diver ever MADE it to the surface? There is nothing in the news report or in this thread to say that. If they were still on ascent when she gave up the reg and sank, then no one would have attempted to remove weights yet.

Although it's certainly an attractive hypothesis that she was overweighted, I can also imagine a scenario where they establish the air-share and begin ascending in the vertical position, slightly negative and swimming as OW students are so often taught to do. If she then embolized and dropped the reg, she would stop swimming and therefore sink.

I don't like vertical, negative swimming ascents, personally.

InTheDrink

August 29th, 2010, 03:36 PM

I also think we should be circumspect about being sure about divers in general that bolt under certain circumstances. I think it's really easy in life in general to misappropriate people's reasons for doing things.

Ditching someone's donated reg may well have been because of some problem with the reg, serious or otherwise. Or it may not. We simply don't know.

To other divers out there - I wouldn't be too quick to denigrate a particular divers skills or abilities lest you find yourself under similar inspection under similar circumstances.

This isn't to say we shouldn't hypothesize - we should - but we should be clear that these are at best guesses and that divers that appear to be panicing for no reason might very well have very good reasons for their panic.

J

Crush

August 29th, 2010, 04:03 PM

Before we get all wound up on dumping weights at the surface . . . does anybody know if this diver ever MADE it to the surface?

That is a great point, TSandM. I read reply http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/5435367-post2.html (the poster admitted that this was hearsay) and did not bother to verify it myself, assuming it to be correct. If the diver did not make it to the surface it certainly negates my argument that the rescuer should have ditched the victim's weights.

To other divers out there - I wouldn't be too quick to denigrate a particular divers skills or abilities lest you find yourself under similar inspection under similar circumstances.

InTheDrink, I don't disagree with your sentiment. I hope that it was not directed towards my post as I tried to be very clear that the rescuer is to be applauded for what she/he did, irrespective of how it turned out. Personally I think that divers should all take rescue diver courses so that they get the opportunity to practice their rescue skills and that, when called upon, then can perform gracefully under pressure.

InTheDrink

August 29th, 2010, 04:50 PM

Mp,

My post was certainly not directed at you. I just wonder, sometimes, when someone underwater has a problem that they're not around to explain whether there may have been pretty good reasons for their problem. And of course in all likelihood that is not the case but critiquing the behaviour of the deceased who cannot defend themselves should be classified as a general and not particular point. U can easily see denisegg's close call had it turned out differently being called as a panicked diver episode who panicked and forgot her training. When this wasn't the case. Only reason we know is cos she made it through. Had she died, how would it have made her family feel to listen to people surmising that it was pilot error or panic?? And how would that have been a fitting epitaph??

So it's a general word of caution to those that believe they conclusively know the reasons for an accident even when there are no first hand witnesses (I.e. The victim).

Peace and good diving,

J

Crush

August 29th, 2010, 04:59 PM

Had she died, how would it have made her family feel to listen to people surmising that it was pilot error or panic?? And how would that have been a fitting epitaph??

Thanks for the clarification.

Family and friends are generally not encouraged to read Accidents and Incidents threads as they can be critical of a diver's reaction.

I would like to point out that stress can occur with any diver, and that panic (which arises from stress) is not uncommon, especially among new divers. I would draw your attention to my own panic incident on my dive #6: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/4588916-post34.html .

momicha

August 29th, 2010, 05:32 PM

I will pray for her

tregrrr

August 29th, 2010, 05:39 PM

It turns out that I unknowingly met the man who was involved in this accident. He came into the shop on Friday to replace his mask that was lost during the ordeal. I had posted for that mask last week: mentioned here (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/western-canada/349373-zeus-mask-missing-action-whytcliff.html) At the time of posting that thread I had no clue who/what... nada

I want to put that in as a plug to try and generate a bit of local awareness to get back the first mask that hasn't leaked for him in a while... if anyone sees it... He seemed to be quite fond of it. He seemed still quite shaken, rightly so, but came in to speak with two of his friends who work there... mostly for social, but the mask did come up.

As for the accident victim, as of this past Friday, apparently, she was still not conscious. From my understanding it seems to still be induced coma. He did not mention or release any details around the shop and NO-ONE is going to discuss it until he initiates.

Hopefully with a bit of time, more information will come out. Analyzing bunk and hypothesis really amounts to nothing more than an academic discussion which IMHO is best done anonymously without reference to specific people's situations. IF we don't KNOW, we DON'T know. I personally feel its best to look at and seek fact rather than rely on conjecture to discus causalities.

Crush

August 29th, 2010, 06:16 PM

Hopefully with a bit of time, more information will come out. Analyzing bunk and hypothesis really amounts to nothing more than an academic discussion which IMHO is best done anonymously without reference to specific people's situations. IF we don't KNOW, we DON'T know. I personally feel its best to look at and seek fact rather than rely on conjecture to discus causalities.

Re-posted from http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/566581-post1.html - special rules on the Accidents and Incidents forum.

Special rules - Please Read

Originally Posted by Rick Murchison:

The purpose of this forum is the promotion of safe diving through the examination and discussion of accidents and incidents; to find lessons we can apply to our own diving.

Accidents, and incidents that could easily have become accidents, can often be used to illustrate actions that lead to injury or death, and their discussion is essential to building lessons learned from which improved safety can flow. To foster the free exchange of information valuable to this process, the "manners" in this forum are much more tightly controlled than elsewhere on the board. In addition to the TOS:

(1) You may not release any names here, until after the names have appeared in the public domain (articles, news reports, sheriff's report etc.) The releasing report must be cited. Until such public release, the only name you may use in this forum is your own.
(2) Off topic posts will be removed and off topic comments will be edited.
(3) No flaming, name calling or otherwise attacking other posters. You may attack ideas; you may not attack people.
(4) No trolling; no blamestorming. Mishap analysis does not lay blame, it finds causes.
(5) No "condolences to the family" here. Please use our Passings Forum for these kinds of messages.
(6) If you are presenting information from a source other than your own eyes and ears, cite the source.
(7) If your post is your hypothesis, theory, or a "possible scenario," identify it as such.

Thanks in advance,
Rick

It is important for us as a community to assess and discuss diving accidents and incidents as a means of preventing them. However, once emotions are involved, intelligent discussion becomes next to impossible. If the moderators feel that the discussion is getting out of hand in any thread they may close or remove the thread, with or without notice.

Uncle Pug

This forum is about many things, including respectful speculation.

halemanō

August 29th, 2010, 06:21 PM

....If they were still on ascent when she gave up the reg and sank, then no one would have attempted to remove weights yet.

Although it's certainly an attractive hypothesis that she was overweighted, I can also imagine a scenario where they establish the air-share and begin ascending in the vertical position, slightly negative and swimming as OW students are so often taught to do. If she then embolized and dropped the reg, she would stop swimming and therefore sink.

I don't like vertical, negative swimming ascents, personally.

I for one will continue to advise negative swimming ascents to my OW students that are healthy enough to dive (the ones that did not lie on the medical release).

If the diver is properly weighted for neutral at the surface with an empty tank, then they would only be slightly negative at less than 2 ATM (bottom 45' - divers on ascent). Following the "book" on weighting would mean the diver is even less negative at less than 2 ATM with an empty tank. Hypothesizing embolizing during alternate ascent seems to be stretching for a reason to post your dislike of negative ascents.

For a negative vertical ascent to have had any part in this tragedy I think there were at least 2 failures/faults (probably more than 3) prior to any problem due to negative ascent.

DandyDon

August 29th, 2010, 06:40 PM

I am not clear on the differences in opinions here on negative ascents? I like using one so I can duck back down vertically & quickly if I see a craft approaching.

It turns out that I unknowingly met the man who was involved in this accident. He came into the shop on Friday to replace his mask that was lost during the ordeal. I had posted for that mask last week: mentioned here (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/western-canada/349373-zeus-mask-missing-action-whytcliff.html) At the time of posting that thread I had no clue who/what... nada

I want to put that in as a plug to try and generate a bit of local awareness to get back the first mask that hasn't leaked for him in a while... if anyone sees it... He seemed to be quite fond of it. He seemed still quite shaken, rightly so, but came in to speak with two of his friends who work there... mostly for social, but the mask did come up.
You might also post that in our new L&F forum: Lost, Found and Stolen - ScubaBoard (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/lost-found-stolen/)

As for the accident victim, as of this past Friday, apparently, she was still not conscious. From my understanding it seems to still be induced coma. He did not mention or release any details around the shop and NO-ONE is going to discuss it until he initiates.
Glad to hear that she is still with the living and hope the best for her. We have actually had divers survive accidents and induced comas then come read the discussions about their accidents here mostly because they had no memory of the accident. I awoke from a car accident with no memory of it once; odd feeling, especially when taken back to the scene.

Too bad y'all are not discussing this with him as post incident stress can be very heavy on a rescuer, successful or not, and talking about the accident can be the best therapy. The Padi Rescue course has a chapter on it, but there is really little available on the web - an under discussed risk in itself. I'd like to give the guy a medal myself, and encourage him to accept that he was the lady's only hope and did the best he could. I don't know what courses you have taken as you seem defensive about that subject on your profile, but if you've had any agency's Rescue course perhaps you have heard of this?

Hopefully with a bit of time, more information will come out. Analyzing bunk and hypothesis really amounts to nothing more than an academic discussion which IMHO is best done anonymously without reference to specific people's situations. IF we don't KNOW, we DON'T know. I personally feel its best to look at and seek fact rather than rely on conjecture to discus causalities.
As has been mentioned a few times here, our goal in discussing accidents is only to prevent similar ones in others, even tho we seldom have many facts and can only speculate on possible causes and preventions. Whether or not this lady did make it to the surface, it is good to remind ourselves of the need to be able to establish buoyancy in an surface emergency should that happen to any of us, by orally inflating BCs or whatever flotation device one uses, dumping weights or however one manages without dumpable weights, etc. Drownings after surfacing without establishing buoyancy have been all too common on this forum; my bud & I drill on oral inflating and dumping every trip just in case panic tries to take over one of us in such a case.

tregrrr

August 29th, 2010, 06:53 PM

Re-posted from http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/566581-post1.html - special rules on the Accidents and Incidents forum.

Special rules - Please Read

This forum is about many things, including respectful speculation.

yep.

As long as we remember to keep straight in our minds and discussions which is what: speculation versus fact.

I get a foul taste when speculation becomes "fact" as when people rely on the(ir) conjecture in place of facts and often confuse the two. I appreciate a good mental exercise as much as the next person, and do recognize the benefits, but in these cases I feel it beneficial to keep our perspectives clear.

@Don
I did not feel it my place to initiate any further conversation with the gentleman as he was in to speak with a couple long time friends, and I had merely met him a couple time prior in passing. I am well aware of the benefits of post incident discussion, but again he came in to speak with his friends, I am just a casual acquaintance. Plus it wasn't until after he left that I put two and two together. My mind works slower out of water.
T

Crush

August 29th, 2010, 08:45 PM

...If the diver is properly weighted for neutral at the surface with an empty tank, then they would only be slightly negative at less than 2 ATM (bottom 45' - divers on ascent).

halemanō, I haven't done the math for cold water, but the diver was in the Pacific Northwest. Since she was new to diving, she was likely in a 7mm wetsuit (possibly two-piece) rather than in a drysuit. Your numbers might be correct - perhaps at 33 ft she should be "slightly negative" in a 7mm wetsuit. However you live in Hawaii (I am envious, by the way...). Have you accounted for the difference between a 3mm suit and a 7mm suit? I have got to tell you that I LOVE Florida diving since I feel light as a feather on the boat and my buoyancy rocks when I don't have to contend with 7mm x 2 or a drysuit...

kazinvan

August 30th, 2010, 01:48 AM

I know staff at VGH familiar with the case though I'm not sure how much should be posted on this board... Any input appreciated.

John C. Ratliff

August 30th, 2010, 03:14 AM

halemanō, I haven't done the math for cold water, but the diver was in the Pacific Northwest. Since she was new to diving, she was likely in a 7mm wetsuit (possibly two-piece) rather than in a drysuit. Your numbers might be correct - perhaps at 33 ft she should be "slightly negative" in a 7mm wetsuit. However you live in Hawaii (I am envious, by the way...). Have you accounted for the difference between a 3mm suit and a 7mm suit? I have got to tell you that I LOVE Florida diving since I feel light as a feather on the boat and my buoyancy rocks when I don't have to contend with 7mm x 2 or a drysuit...

This is a very good point; diving in the Pacific Northwest is much different, and one of the reasons BCs became available. We were trying over the years to find something that allowed us to be neutral at the bottom (say 45 feet) and also neutral at the surface. I did a number of experiments on this in the 1970s, and wrote about them in NAUI News. I also published them in IQ6 or IQ7 (the Sixth and Seventh International Conferences on Underwater Education). One of those experiments was to dive in a fresh water lake (Clear Lake, east of Eugene, Oregon) and take off my 16 pound weight belt at 33 feet depth. I tied it onto the anchor line, and was completely neutral for buoyancy at that depth in my full wet suit (water temperature was 39 degrees F, about 4 degrees C). I was also neutral with the weight belt on the surface. We were at an altitude of about 3000 feet too (900 or so meters). But that's a 16 pound difference in buoyancy! It is similar in salt water at sea level, although due to the difference in SG of salt water, the wet suit may retain some buoyancy at 33 feet. That would be compensated for by the different amount of weight that the diver needed to wear (for me in the 1970s, it was 22 pound in salt water verses the 16 pounds in fresh water; today it is greater on both environments as I am a bit fatter ;) ).

The reason BCs exist is because we cannot by breath alone compensate for the loss of buoyancy of a wet suit. Dry suits have their own buoyancy compensation systems, and in the 1970s were used without BCs (mostly Unisuits). But I don't think that a fully negative swimming ascent is wise in cold waters with a wet suit. Dacor came out with an interesting system which only had to be compensated once, the Nautilus BC, and thereafter it either bled off air as the diver rose without increasing buoyancy (it was a hard-shell system, and operated much like a submarine), or added air to compensate for pressure changes as the diver descended. We don't have that anymore, so swimming to the surface with a compensated BC will allow air to expand, and it must be bled off. But to try a swimming ascent when fully negative at depth will put quite a physiological work load on the diver.

One other thought, which does not apply to this particular situation but I don't think is being taught anymore, is that free divers (usually spearfishers) in the Pacific Northwest would remove their weight belt and carry it in their hand if they had overstayed their breath on breath hold dives. Then, if shallow water blackout occurs, the weight belt is automatically dropped as the diver can no longer hold it while unconscious. I actually used this technique a few times in my early days of diving, but made the surface okay and didn't drop the weights.

SeaRat

DCBC

August 30th, 2010, 03:43 AM

One other thought, which does not apply to this particular situation but I don't think is being taught anymore, is that free divers (usually spearfishers) in the Pacific Northwest would remove their weight belt and carry it in their hand if they had overstayed their breath on breath hold dives. Then, if shallow water blackout occurs, the weight belt is automatically dropped as the diver can no longer hold it while unconscious.

Your post brought back many memories John. I remember on a deep dive (100 feet or so) using a "Mae West" with a 1/4 inch wet suit. You would try to be slightly underweighted at the surface (neutral at 10; for decompression purposes), had to kick to get down and kick like hell to get back-up. LOL

The ability to release the weight belt was important in an emergency and was often a diver's (or buddy's) only salvation. Today, there is a tendency to not think this as important as it use to be. Technology has all the answers, or at least that's a prevalent course of thought that I don't fully agree with.

Even a Wet Bell used in saturation diving has an emergency release weight system and every operator knows when it should be used. Sometimes the surface is everything; without it there's only death.

TSandM

August 30th, 2010, 04:56 AM

halemanō

August 30th, 2010, 06:00 AM

I don't like negative, swimming ascents because they are inherently unstable. The diver is required to match swimming effort to the precise ascent rate they want to achieve, and if they try to stop, they have to be very precise in that matching, or inflate the BC very precisely.

A floating ascent, where one is never very far off neutral and is not finning, is much easier to arrest for stops, and if the diver is distracted or task loaded in some way, they will not begin to sink. It's more difficult to learn, though.

You seem to be saying that learning to negative ascend precisely enough to match swimming effort to planned ascent rate and precisely inflate vest at stops is easier than learning precise floating ascents. I'm not seeing much down side here. :dontknow:

One of my favorite quotes from an ex-boss is "I'll drop like a rock to save you and even your expensive camera, but if you pop to the surface like a cork I'll be with you shortly." As a buddy, guide or instructor I will have less problem dragging you up than I will flaring with an ankle.

In this situation, a negative ascent from 45 fsw is not in the top 3 reasons the person needed reviving.

tonka97

August 30th, 2010, 07:23 AM

Thanks John for one of the best posts ever on this board.

This is the type of information, history, and insights I'm looking for when I spend time on the various forums.

TSandM

August 30th, 2010, 12:48 PM

What I'm saying is that negative, swimming ascents make precision difficult -- which wouldn't work for me, because I stage all my ascents. They also make it very easy for the diver to end up yo-yoing because they got distracted or ceased to fin for a moment, and sank. You are right that they're probably safer for people who have marginal buoyancy control, but I don't operate in the universe that you do, so I don't pick what I consider optimal strategies based on the idea that people don't have and won't develop better skills.

Crush

August 30th, 2010, 01:02 PM

DandyDon

August 30th, 2010, 01:17 PM

Why would I want to make a swimming ascent (and not a buoyant one) except in the case where, well, my BCD has failed? I am not trying to stir it up here - I have just never thought of swimming up when I can get air to do it for me.
So you can duck quickly, vertically, if you see a boat or jet ski approaching maybe? We have a thread recently moved from Accidents to some other forum about a diver who saw one approaching, couldn't sink fast enough, rolled over to kick down and lost his legs.

To clarify, I use buoyancy to get to my last stop at 15 feet, then kick up from there later. I like to be able to sink vertically to 15 if needed.

themagni

August 30th, 2010, 01:38 PM

Drownings after surfacing without establishing buoyancy have been all too common on this forum; my bud & I drill on oral inflating and dumping every trip just in case panic tries to take over one of us in such a case.

About a year and a half ago, TS&M posted about that experienced diver from Oregon who floundered on the surface after an OOA ascent and drowned. Since then, I've practiced oral inflation on every dive. I explain why so my buddies don't think I'm in serious trouble, but I haven't seen anyone else start doing it.

halemanō, I haven't done the math for cold water, but the diver was in the Pacific Northwest. Since she was new to diving, she was likely in a 7mm wetsuit (possibly two-piece) rather than in a drysuit. Your numbers might be correct - perhaps at 33 ft she should be "slightly negative" in a 7mm wetsuit. However you live in Hawaii (I am envious, by the way...). Have you accounted for the difference between a 3mm suit and a 7mm suit? I have got to tell you that I LOVE Florida diving since I feel light as a feather on the boat and my buoyancy rocks when I don't have to contend with 7mm x 2 or a drysuit...

Diving in August in Vancouver would be in a 7mm John & Jacket or drysuit, but probably the J&J -- 14mm on your core -- plus hood, gloves, and boots. You simply cannot dive in anything less than a full exposure suit up here, end of story. The beaches here will be full of people on a 30C day, but the water itself will be almost completely empty. Water surface temperature is about 7C, with thermoclines dropping that to 4C even in the summer. We were just talking about this at work -- every year a tourist thinks "I can swim that". They get a nice tour of a Coast Guard vessel, free hot chocolate, and a reminder that the water here is a lot colder than it looks.

That much suit would put her... ballast somewhere around 35#, depending on her BMI. I wear a neoprene drysuit, even in the summer, with 30#, and I'm a 165#, 5'11" man. If she was new to diving, they'd likely throw an extra 5# on her and if she hasn't done a buoyancy check she might still be at her "starting" weight guessed at when she took OW. (So easily up to 40# of lead, which would be a perfectly reasonable amount for diving here. One of my ex-buddies dives 40# in Victoria and 6# in Florida.) The two most likely weight configurations would be to have 10# in each of the integrated pouches (with the rest unditchable) but most likely all the lead on a ditchable belt. We practiced ditching when I took OW, and my instructor told me "If you ever wonder if you should ditch your weights, ditch your weights. Come find me and I'll buy you new ones."

That might be moot, as the news said she didn't make it to the surface. However, I've been in the paper and they always get something wrong.

themagni

August 30th, 2010, 01:49 PM

Why would I want to make a swimming ascent (and not a buoyant one) except in the case where, well, my BCD has failed? I am not trying to stir it up here - I have just never thought of swimming up when I can get air to do it for me.

As you ascend, your rate of ascent will increase as the gas expands. You're already neutrally buoyant so swimming upwards will make you go ascend. As you do so, the air in your cells (BC / drysuit / lungs*) will expand, giving you more gas volume. As you go from 66' to 33', the volume of gas you've got in your cells will increase to 150%. As you go from 33' to the surface, that volume will double, so a total of triple what it was at at 66'.

Thus, if you're comfortably finning along at 60' you have to release gas to remain neutrally buoyant at 30' and at 15'. This means you actually have to vent slightly when ascending to maintain an even rate of ascension.

*overpressure valve not standard configuration.

tracydr

August 30th, 2010, 02:07 PM

Why would I want to make a swimming ascent (and not a buoyant one) except in the case where, well, my BCD has failed? I am not trying to stir it up here - I have just never thought of swimming up when I can get air to do it for me.
PADI teaches a negative swimming ascent to prevent uncontrolled ascents. It's hard for new divers to control the amount of air they add and subtract to their BC accurately enough to avoid rocketing to the surface.
I do a negative ascent when lightly weighted. If dressed heavily and diving deep I might use a squirt of air to get started and then dump it as I get shallower. I'm usually pretty neutral at the end of my dive except if I only used half a tank or less.

Crush

August 30th, 2010, 02:59 PM

As you ascend, your rate of ascent will increase as the gas expands. You're already neutrally buoyant so swimming upwards will make you go ascend. As you do so, the air in your cells (BC / drysuit / lungs*) will expand, giving you more gas volume. As you go from 66' to 33', the volume of gas you've got in your cells will increase to 150%. As you go from 33' to the surface, that volume will double, so a total of triple what it was at at 66'.

Thus, if you're comfortably finning along at 60' you have to release gas to remain neutrally buoyant at 30' and at 15'. This means you actually have to vent slightly when ascending to maintain an even rate of ascension.

*overpressure valve not standard configuration.

Yes. I didn't state it explicitly, but I do vent air as I rise. Since I wear a drysuit with heavy undergarments and sometimes dive below 100 feet, if I didn't vent air I fear that I might go into low earth orbit.

My question as to why one would choose a negative swimming ascent was answered by DandyDon - thanks DD.

NWGratefulDiver

August 30th, 2010, 03:16 PM

PADI teaches a negative swimming ascent to prevent uncontrolled ascents. It's hard for new divers to control the amount of air they add and subtract to their BC accurately enough to avoid rocketing to the surface.

Actually it's not ... you just have to have them practice it.

When skills are practiced multiple times over the course of the checkout dives, new divers rather quickly develop a "feel" for how much air to add or release as they are changing depth. I will not pass an OW student until they can ascend ... and hold a stop ... without the need to kick. It's really not that hard ... it just takes practice.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

sabbath999

August 30th, 2010, 03:33 PM

Since I wear a drysuit with heavy undergarments and sometimes dive below 100 feet, if I didn't vent air I fear that I might go into low earth orbit.

Yeah, I personally don't want to look like an ICBM launching either... especially since I am still gaining experience in my drysuit. I keep it pretty "squeezed" going up, although I am not going to want to swim hard enough to exert myself at depth.

InTheDrink

August 30th, 2010, 08:19 PM

So you can duck quickly, vertically, if you see a boat or jet ski approaching maybe? We have a thread recently moved from Accidents to some other forum about a diver who saw one approaching, couldn't sink fast enough, rolled over to kick down and lost his legs.

To clarify, I use buoyancy to get to my last stop at 15 feet, then kick up from there later. I like to be able to sink vertically to 15 if needed.

Yep, that's the ticket to be sure.

Neutral all the way to your safety stop. Negative from there so you can get down in a hurry should you need (and it also keeps your final ascent nice and gentle; I like taking the last 5m nice and slow anyhow)

J

John C. Ratliff

August 30th, 2010, 09:42 PM

I just added it up, and I've now been diving for 51 years. I'm diving basically the same way I dove in the 1960 and 1970s. Yes, I have a BC; actually, I patented a vest-style BC that I call the Para-Sea BC, and am wearing it in my avitar. Here's a photo of the Para-Sea BC in use in Clear Lake, Oregon:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/yaquinaguy/ParaSea2.jpg
As you can see, I'm pretty well balanced. I maintain that no matter where I am in the water column. But I also swim up and down; it's easy when I am neutral, and I can do whatever I want in any part of the water column. I don't do a "buoyant ascent" as such, only keep managing the air in my BC as I ascend. It's easy to bleed air out of my BC, and it should be easy with any BC that is well-designed. I still dive that Para-Sea BC, which was photographed above in the 1980s; it was in the water with me last Saturday. I am not what an ol' dive shop owner, Bill Herder (now deceased), wet suit designer and BC designer (he built a BC into the back of his wet suits) termed a "push-button diver." I don't use the button to gain in the water column, or to dive. I surface dive, and compensate when I become heavy. And I come up the way I discussed above.

SeaRat
NAUI #2710 (Retired)

halemanō

August 30th, 2010, 10:11 PM

For this thread's accident, I think the current discussion about negative ascents is pretty far from the target. Until we get more info, they were reportedly on alternate ascent when she let go and sank; body found at 45 fsw. If she had been properly weighted the effort to ascend from ~33 ft (2 ATM) should not have been significant exertion to cause a problem.

1. . . She reportedly ran out of air - catastrophic failure, inaccurate spg or inattentive diver (and buddy)?
2. . . Spit out buddy's alternate on ascent - inhaled salt water due bad buddy spacing, bad reg exchange or inoperative alternate?
3. . . Sank out of buddy's reach - questionable alternate ascent procedures, overweighted &/or complete BC failure?

For all we know there could have been a bit of buoyant acceleration at the beginning of the ascent and in the panic to successfully dump her BC the alternate was dislodged, but at whatever depth she lost contact, she sank.

For all we know her buddy put an alternate in an already not responsive mouth and thought he was ascending with a responsive, still diving buddy; the eyes don't always close when you freeze in fear.

Mix and match; even the still living person involved likely doesn't know exactly what happened. :(

funrecdiver

August 30th, 2010, 11:07 PM

I also was confused by the buoyance discussion.

Divers should be neutrally buoyant in the water at the end of the dive based on having zero air in the BCD.

To ascend slowly, the diver can either kick very gently (more like a vertical walk) or change breathing to provide a little bit of positive buoyancy from the lungs. (Or use ascent line of course).

There should never be any air in the BCD on a normal ascent for any reason. All divers I know work hard to insure their BCD is always completely void of gas on ascent.

To avoid surface problems with watercraft, you listen below the surface around the safety stop, deploy an SMB or use your octopus to steam bubbles to the surface, and ascent super slowly.

I agree this discussion has moved off target, but that is par for the course on SB, nothing much can be done about that.

Most of these threads are pure speculation anyway. All of this adds to the educational value of this forum.

Dive neutrally buoyant with zero air in your BCD except when you are slightly negative at the beginning of your dive due to a full tank of gas! Use your lungs and never, never, never use air in your BCD to ascend. If you must do this, you are way overweighed!!!

Crush

August 30th, 2010, 11:21 PM

There should never be any air in the BCD on a normal ascent for any reason. All divers I know work hard to insure their BCD is always completely void of gas on ascent.

Dive neutrally buoyant with zero air in your BCD except when you are slightly negative at the beginning of your dive due to a full tank of gas! Use your lungs and never, never, never use air in your BCD to ascend. If you must do this, you are way overweighed!!!

Written like a warm-water diver! In cold water water we use excessively buoyant thermal protection which compresses at depth.

DandyDon

August 30th, 2010, 11:35 PM

I also was confused by the buoyance discussion.
Well it may not have much to do with this accident, but it's here - and a good time for some to learn choices...

Divers should be neutrally buoyant in the water at the end of the dive based on having zero air in the BCD.
Sorry, but not me, as explained earlier.

To ascend slowly, the diver can either kick very gently (more like a vertical walk) or change breathing to provide a little bit of positive buoyancy from the lungs. (Or use ascent line of course).

There should never be any air in the BCD on a normal ascent for any reason. All divers I know work hard to insure their BCD is always completely void of gas on ascent.

To avoid surface problems with watercraft, you listen below the surface around the safety stop, deploy an SMB or use your octopus to steam bubbles to the surface, and ascent super slowly.
I hope you have enough close calls to change your mind before you get hit. I saw a fast boat nearly run over our sausage last week, with the line holder just barely retaining the reel so his hand wouldn't get hurt if it did, and listening for crafts is far from guaranteed effective. Ever hear a sail boat or board approaching under water? They still hut when they hit. And bubbles...?! :rofl3: Sorry, too funny.

I agree this discussion has moved off target, but that is par for the course on SB, nothing much can be done about that.

Most of these threads are pure speculation anyway. All of this adds to the educational value of this forum.

Dive neutrally buoyant with zero air in your BCD except when you are slightly negative at the beginning of your dive due to a full tank of gas! Use your lungs and never, never, never use air in your BCD to ascend. If you must do this, you are way overweighed!!!
I'll still kick from 15 feet thanks.

rob1967

August 30th, 2010, 11:39 PM

Yeah, I was just going to say, Funrecdiver, your "rules" may be easy to follow for tropical diving, but certainly do not apply to cold water diving! Having done a fair amount of both, I can certainly say that it is WAY easier to control your buoyancy in tropical water, compared to cold water.

halemanō

August 30th, 2010, 11:59 PM

Just a few more details would really help the discussion; experience, exposure protection, releasable and non-releasable weight, general fitness, dive profile....

John C. Ratliff

August 31st, 2010, 12:37 AM

I think it is better to discuss the types of ascents than to needlessly speculate on the actual accident, which we don't know about and will probably never know about. The reason for these discussions is to trigger the possibility of learning from others; the specific accident is simply a trigger to help us discuss how to apply what may be lessons to our own diving.

By the way, halemanō, this was not a "body" recovery; this was and is a living diver. As a former Pararescueman, this is an important distinction.

SeaRat

funrecdiver

August 31st, 2010, 01:09 AM

Agreed.

I only dive in warm tropical water and am perfectly happy doing so in my .5 mil wetsuit ;D

However, I do understand physics pretty well and understand that if the diver was in cold water with a lot of thick thermal protection, buoyancy techniques change.

Sorry, I read many posts in the thread and missed that part.

In tropical waters, we dive neutrally buoyant and use our lungs to ascend and descend. No one I dive with here uses negative buoyancy as an emergency backup plan to escape being hit by boats; however I can see the benefit of this approach.

On the other hand, since diving neutrally buoyant with zero air in the BCD is optimal for many reasons, I'll keep diving in tropical waters without feeling guilty about it and continue to avoid dive sites where fear of reckless speedboats is a major concern as to force a change in weights and buoyancy.

Yes, I can't comment on cold water diving, thank goodness, lucky me.

John C. Ratliff

August 31st, 2010, 01:57 AM

funrecdiver,

Many of us are envious. It looked like this when I was diving tropical waters around Okinawa (now the Ryuku Islands, Japan).
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/yaquinaguy/Exploringthereef--Okinawa1968.jpg

A diver can dive neutrally buoyant in cold waters with a wet suit, but that part about not having any air in the BCD would have to be exempted.

In the US Navy, we used "buddy lines." These were a line about 3 feet long which each diver held, to keep in contact. My buddy and I were using a buddy line during an open ocean dive off Otter Crest, Oregon in December, in the 1970s. That was the one thing we did right on that dive. We looked over the ocean, and thought that 3-5 foot breakers were manageable. We watched for about half an hour, then decided to dive. The other thing we did right was to have our girl friends watching us. Here is what we looked like as we were swimming out:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/yaquinaguy/RockyCreek1.jpg

And here is what we looked like about fifteen minutes later when we had been rolled by a huge wave (15-20 feet).
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/yaquinaguy/RockyCreek2.jpg
I'm without a mask, my buddy is without his helmet and mask. After waiting for a while for us to come in (we could not exit where we entered because of the surf), our girl friends called the Coast Guard. I still had my white-water kayaker's helmet on, and that is what the Coast Guardsmen saw when they were looking at dusk for us. They were really happy; we were their first live pickup in quite a while. We, obviously, were happy also.

Take-aways:
1. When the worst happens, remain calm and think it through.
2. A four-foot buddy line kept us together even while being rolled by a huge breaker.
3. Be prepared to stay out a while (we were thinking we'd be in the water overnight).
4. Be able to signal for help. We couldn't--the helmet had white stripes on it, and that's what they saw.
5. Let someone know when you are going, where, and when you will be back.

What does this have to do with the present accident? Well, one wonders whether a buddy line would have helped, or whether there would have been two people down at 45 feet.

SeaRat

DCBC

August 31st, 2010, 03:42 AM

I can't say that I'm a fan of being negatively buoyant on the surface. Worried about boat traffic? I can't say that I've ever been worried about this to any degree. If the area had such a high volume of boats, I'd be either diving off a boat myself, or diving elsewhere. That said, as a Navy and Commercial Diver I've done quite a bit of work in Halifax and Vancouver harbours without worry of getting hit by a boat.

It seems to me that since the invention of the BC, that divers are routinely overweighted. The air parachute seems to be accepted fare. Certainly it's not difficult to maintain excellent buoyancy at any depth using the technology available (with a little practice). But I suppose that many accidents don't happen when everything is working correctly.

I agree that we can't speak directly about this incident (we just don't have the information at this point), but we can discuss similar problems which have occured. I fear that these problems repeat themselves more often than we care to acknowledge.

When a diver goes out of air at depth and finds themselves sinking, what are they taught to do(failing having a redundant air-source)? It's easy to say that they can easily get help from a buddy, but if we examine the situation more closely, we can better understand the complications that may arise:

- Where's the Buddy? It seems the art of being within "touching distance" isn't observed by many divers, at all times.

- Several divers that I've assisted OOA have been too deep. They didn't have a handle of their gas consumption during the dive planning process and didn't appreciate the dynamics involved. These divers have included instructors who should have known better. People have the knowledge, but they often can't transfer this to practice.

- Depth on air means narcosis. Perhaps this is one of the leading reasons for diver inattentiveness.

- Depth on Nitrox may mean OxTox.

- How about Buddy attentiveness and reaction time at depth?

- Has the Buddy been trained to recover an underwater victim (not all agencies make this a requirement for OW certification; which I see as short-sighted)?

- How often is the weight-belt the last piece of equipment put on? How often is ditching the weight device practiced? Is the Buddy familiar with your weight system?

I know what is suppose to be taught, but perhaps accidents such as this are a wake-up call to our complacency. It can happen to you.

TheWetRookie

August 31st, 2010, 04:29 AM

funrecdiver

August 31st, 2010, 07:04 AM

When air sharing, shouldn't the two people's arms be locked together as taught consistently in dive courses?

DandyDon

August 31st, 2010, 09:52 AM

When air sharing, shouldn't the two people's arms be locked together as taught consistently in dive courses?
It is? I honestly don't remember. When I have donated, I have grabbed the recipients' BCs firmly. The one time I received, I was on a 15 ft Deco stop and might have held onto the donor somehow; don't remember, but I was a short swim to surface.

I saw my newbie friend who'd been receiving from my pony the last few days take receipt of his other friend's alternate reg once years ago, neither of them holding, then his friend took off and jerked the reg out of him mouth. The DM rescued him as I was too busy laughing, which was wrong of me; he still doesn't pay attention to details so I watch him closely and the other bud hires a private DM now after a foot amputation.

Anyway, securely holding the recipient would have helped I am sure, while managing her buoyancy - the preferred approach certainly.

joolz

August 31st, 2010, 01:10 PM

We've heard (unofficially) that the diver may have panicked, and this would have been a much bigger contributing factor than just running out of air. All OW students learn how to do AAS ascents, and all OW students are taught to maintain buddy contact throughout. This, however, assumes that both divers are in full control of their faculties and the recipient isn't hyperventilating, rejecting the donor's help and struggling to get away.

I can definitely see how easy it would be to lose contact if the donor felt his/her safety was being compromised, since this is the first thing rescue divers learn when approaching panicked divers on the surface. In a rescue class, students learn how to deal with mild panic underwater, but this isn't easy to simulate in a realistic way since I could potentially kill myself and/or the student if I spat out my reg and went into full-on panic mode. Moreover, during rescue classes we're in a position to stop the scenario before anybody's in any real danger. As much as some instructors on here take every opportunity to slag PADI for leaving rescue skills until a later module, responding to both panic and OOA requires judgment and experience that few new divers would have. I'd like to think that I've got enough experience with air sharing and (to a lesser extent) panic that I could figure out a way to control a panicked OOA diver, but I know it wouldn't be easy -- I'd have to find a way to get behind them while keeping my octo in their mouth. And possibly without a mask if the panicked diver knocked it off.

As for the weighting question, there's nothing to indicate that the OOA diver was grossly overweighted. She wasn't a brand new diver as others have suggested, although we don't know what her local diving experience level is. And while it's easy to say she or her buddy should have ditched her weights, this is 20/20 hindsight -- during an OOA emergency, the first thought is providing an air source, not establishing positive buoyancy. If panic was a factor, she wouldn't have been thinking about her weights and her buddy may not have had a chance to ditch them before they lost contact.

DCBC

August 31st, 2010, 05:35 PM

...As much as some instructors on here take every opportunity to slag PADI for leaving rescue skills until a later module...

If you don't require students to deal with an underwater rescue in an OW program, it's no surprise that when a diver is faced with an underwater emergency that they don't respond. This applies to any diver without this skill-set. PADI just happens to be the only agency that I'm aware of, that doesn't see fit to teach this skill at the OW stage, or have the standards been changed?

...And while it's easy to say she or her buddy should have ditched her weights, this is 20/20 hindsight -- during an OOA emergency, the first thought is providing an air source, not establishing positive buoyancy.

Not hindsight at all. If your buddy is negatively buoyant in an emergency, positive buoyancy must be established. Obviously if the diver refuses an air-source, or panics, positive buoyancy is the next step.

Its been my experience that once a person has air and is positively buoyant that panic quickly disipates. Again, we can't comment on this particular situation until we have the facts, nor do we know the training agency involved in this diver's certification.

InTheDrink

August 31st, 2010, 07:27 PM

I can't say that I'm a fan of being negatively buoyant on the surface. Worried about boat traffic? I can't say that I've ever been worried about this to any degree

Really? I view boat traffic, jet skis etc. as a real, very real hazard. You've loads more experience than I - so what am I missing? Why don't you factor them?

J

boulderjohn

August 31st, 2010, 08:14 PM

I would say the same about underwater rescue. Only one agency doesn't make this a requirement for OW certification. I believe that this can be a fatal mistake. .

- Has the Buddy been trained to recover an underwater victim (not all agencies make this a requirement for OW certification; which I see as short-sighted)?

PADI just happens to be the only agency that I'm aware of, that doesn't see fit to teach this skill at the OW stage,.

Well, let's remedy your awareness level.

Since this has become the dominate point of all your posts in the last few months, I thought I would check it out. I sent messages to seven agencies asking for their standards in this area. So far I have only gotten replies from four of them. Of those four, only NAUI includes underwater recovery of the unconscious diver under water. I am guessing that CMAS must also, since you represent them. ( did not attempt to contact them for this reason.)

I do not expect replies from the other agencies I attempted to contact. I have written them in the past with questions and never received a reply.

So we know that 2 agencies include this skill in OW class, and at least 4 do not.

So, now that you know better, maybe you can amend your crusade.

NWGratefulDiver

August 31st, 2010, 08:22 PM

Really? I view boat traffic, jet skis etc. as a real, very real hazard. You've loads more experience than I - so what am I missing? Why don't you factor them?

J

Just a WAG, but probably because where he lives there aren't that many boats ... and those who pilot them don't last long if they don't know what the heck they're doing.

We all see things through the prism of the environment we dive in ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

NWGratefulDiver

August 31st, 2010, 08:25 PM

Well, let's remedy your awareness level.

Since this has become the dominate point of all your posts in the last few months, I thought I would check it out. I sent messages to seven agencies asking for their standards in this area. So far I have only gotten replies from four of them. Of those four, only NAUI includes underwater recovery of the unconscious diver under water. I am guessing that CMAS must also, since you represent them. ( did not attempt to contact them for this reason.)

I do not expect replies from the other agencies I attempted to contact. I have written them in the past with questions and never received a reply.

So we know that 2 agencies include this skill in OW class, and at least 4 do not.

So, now that you know better, maybe you can amend your crusade.

YMCA did when I did my OW class ... I imagine SEI still does ... (Jim?)

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Crush

August 31st, 2010, 08:50 PM

Well, let's remedy your awareness level.

Since this has become the dominate point of all your posts in the last few months, I thought I would check it out. I sent messages to seven agencies asking for their standards in this area. So far I have only gotten replies from four of them. Of those four, only NAUI includes underwater recovery of the unconscious diver under water. I am guessing that CMAS must also, since you represent them. ( did not attempt to contact them for this reason.)

I do not expect replies from the other agencies I attempted to contact. I have written them in the past with questions and never received a reply.

So we know that 2 agencies include this skill in OW class, and at least 4 do not.

So, now that you know better, maybe you can amend your crusade.

ACUC taught me underwater recovery in basic OW in 2008.

boulderjohn, if we are going to be fair, DCBC points out what he perceives to be flaws in diver training - he does so regularly. You, boulderjohn, defend what you perceive to be slights against PADI - you do so regularly.

Which are the three agencies (besides PADI) that do not teach underwater diver recovery?

DandyDon

August 31st, 2010, 09:07 PM

TSandM

August 31st, 2010, 09:07 PM

I'm not sure I've ever seen a jet ski in Puget Sound -- certainly not at a dive site. And most of the places where I dive have little or no boat traffic, either. This definitely could impact my perspective, although I can control a neutral ascent to 18" underwater, and I can finish it off vertical and looking up if I want to, too. I still don't really see why being negative is all that desirable.

Crush

August 31st, 2010, 09:42 PM

Rescue training is great, but I'd like to see more OW divers who know to keep the reg in their mouth until back on the boat/shore, how to dump weights on surface when indicated and orally inflate if needed, swim with their buddies - just decent prevention skills.

DandyDon, I can't argue with your sentiments.

There are arguments to be made both in favour of and against instructors who derive most of their income from instructing. My instructor was "old school" and had a full-time job (that paid quite well). He required much of us and had no problem failing anyone for under-performing - he didn't need the money, and he had rigid standards. He was able to train good divers and he did fail students that didn't meet standards. Those who passed were able to keep their regs in their mouths, dump weights, ascertain responsiveness underwater, surface with an unconscious diver, and tow said diver to shore.

boulderjohn

August 31st, 2010, 09:51 PM

.

Which are the three agencies (besides PADI) that do not teach underwater diver recovery?

SSI, SDI, and IDEA.

EDIT: That's of those I have surveyed. The only agency that told me it was included in regular OW standards was NAUI.

NWGratefulDiver

August 31st, 2010, 09:58 PM

Crush

September 1st, 2010, 12:03 AM

Don't they teach those skills in Texas?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob, it is more difficult to rescue someone underwater if you are wearing a revolver...

DandyDon

September 1st, 2010, 12:04 AM

John C. Ratliff

September 1st, 2010, 12:31 AM

From the NAUI Instructor's Manual, 1975:

c) Diving Safety

This area is to provide the student with a basic knowledge of lifesaving and first aid as applied to diving, underwater communications, underwater orientation, dive planning and safety rules are also to be covered. Shock, wounds, and drowning are to be covered under first aid. Lifesaving is to include rescues, tows and artificial respiration as they apply to open water...

...d) Open Water Skin and Scuba Diving

1) Perform without stress: water entries/exits, surface dives, buoyancy control and surfacing techniques that are required to do surface, underwater and survival swimming with both skin and scuba equipment.

2) Make a complete rescue of a buddy diver. (emphasis added, jcr)

3) With scuba equipment: clear mask and mouthpiece, buddy breathe, alternate between snorkel and scuba and make a controlled emergency swimming ascent.

The NAUI Pro Manual has a whole section on "Rescue and Emergency Procedures." It goes through the following topics:

--Causes of Diving Accidents
*Health Problems
*Lack of Training
*Exposure
*Fatigue
*Entanglements
*Aquatic Life Injuries
*Environmental Conditions
*Equipment Problems
*Out Of Air

Short of equipment malfunction which is extremely rare, there is NO EXCUSE for a diver running out of air underwater. NO diver should enter the openwater environment without a submersible pressure gauge. In conjunction with this, other reserve warning devices are available for back-up. The means exists to virtually eliminate the out of air accidents with its subsequently hazardous reliance on emergency ascent procedures. Strong emphasis is needed on preventing those situations from developing, rather than treating them.

Lack of understanding and abuses of buoyancy control are often dealt with in this Manual. Such things as overweighting requiring unnecessary compensation and using BC's to create human lift bags are abuses of the buoyancy system. It is as important to point out these abuses as it is to teach the understanding of the buoyancy systems labor saving potential. The specific type of buoyancy system used (jacket, pack, front mounted, back mounted, etc.) is less important than the necessity of training the diver to use it properly.

See Appendix for additional material on stress.
*Failure to Control Buoyancy

As a single source of trouble, the divers failure to neutralize buoyancy at depth and to attain positive buoyancy after surfacing is probably the greatest contributor to diving accidents.

Accident studies implicate surface accidents in a large percentage of diving fatalities. Obviously, the chance of a conscious diver drowning when in a state of positive buoyancy is virtually non-existent.

Therefore, to avoid problems of fatigue, to avoid problems of too rapid an ascent or descent, to avoid problems of fighting to stay up or down, the diver should learn to quickly and efficiently control buoyancy.

Ascents can be a problem. The safe ascent rate is 60 feet per minute. This is quite slow and is often exceeded by divers who do not pay attention. Particularly in the last 20 feet of ascent, divers exceed this as the expanding BC and suit increase buoyancy. Careful attention, therefore, should be given to the ascent with normal breathing or continuous exhalation in an emergency ascent.

In routine diving, buoyancy ccontrol is maintained with the assistance of the buoyancy compensator, back inflation pack, or similar systems. If necessary in an emergency, the entire weight system may be dropped to attain positive buoyancy.
*Anxiety or Stress

Anxiety beore a dive is not unusual for the beginner. It is not even a bad thing so long as it signals the novice to pay particular attention to the pre-dive buddy checks and the procedures for the dive.

Anxiety does become a problem when it interferes with the normal careful thoughtful planning and execution o the dive.
*Panic

Panic, without a doubt, is the most serious enemy of the diver. Starting with a minor problem or stress of some sort, it leads to increasing anxiety until finally the person reaches a state of panic -- a state of unreasoning fear characterized by inappropriate actions.

Panicky victims seem unable to help themselves, they have no recall of their training and may even do things that increase their plight. Indeed when panic has arrived, diver training has failed; at this point only the buddy or other outside source offers much hope of assistance. Panic does not normally develop suddenly; it builds gradually. Divers should learn to recognize in themselves and their buddies signs of discomfort and anxiety. Early recognition of such symptoms will enable the divers to STOP -- THINK -- AND GET CONTROL. They will be able to discontinue their activity, to neutralize buoyancy, to surface, to return to shore or to take other measures before anxiety becomes an unreasoning state of panic.
Rescue

*Self Rescue
*Tired Diver on the Surface
*Unconscious Diver On The Surface
*Struggling Diver On The Surface
*Unconscious Non-Breathing Diver Underwater
*Points to Remember in Rescues

--React immediately, time is of the essence, but do not react without thinking.
--Make rescues by the quickest and simplest means, use additional surface floats such as surf mats or innertubes if available. These may be pushed to the victim rather than making personal contact.
--Pace yourself. You are no help to the victim or yourself if you arrive too tired to assist. Try to get victims to help themselves first.
--Always have positive buoyancy before making contact with an active victim on the surface.
--Drop any extraneous equipment in the diver's hands first. Drop the victim's weights to achieve maximum buoyancy.
--Do not undertake a rescue beyond your ability. Be careful when approaching a panicky victim.
--For mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, adequate ventilation is more important than speed of transport.
--The victim's equipment should be ditched before the rescuer's. Since tank ditching may be time consuming and difficult, it should be done only if necessary.
--Preferably await assistance before removing a stable breathing victim from the water.
--Get additional training in diver rescue techniques and practice techniques at regular intervals. The Red Cross and others offer additional training in life saving, first aid, and CPR.

All the above were in Lecture #5 of the 1977 NAUI Pro Manual (Professional Resource Organizer) written by Ted Boehler over 33 years ago for the basic scuba course. I quoted only a few of the topics listed.

SeaRat
NAUI #2710 (Retired)

bowlofpetunias

September 1st, 2010, 04:29 AM

Any word on the current condition of the diver?

DCBC

September 1st, 2010, 05:32 AM

Really? I view boat traffic, jet skis etc. as a real, very real hazard. You've loads more experience than I - so what am I missing? Why don't you factor them?

What I'm saying is that the greatest majority of my diving over the past few years has been ocean related (I have yet to see a jet ski in the North Atlantic). :) That's not to say that there aren't locations where boat traffic is more prevalent. The harbours I've mentioned are fairly busy, but if you dive from a boat, boat traffic hasn't been a major consideration. If I was "worried" about boat traffic being a real safety hazard, I'd dive from a boat, or simply choose another location. I appreciate that this may not be so easy for some, but I have a variety of choices.

DCBC

September 1st, 2010, 05:41 AM

Well, let's remedy your awareness level.

Sure. may I attempt to do the same for you. Underwater diver rescue is a requirement for diver certification with:

CMAS, NAUI, SEI, ACUC and BSAC. It also was required with IDEA a few years back, but as I'm no longer active with them so I can't attest to their current standards. The point remains that this is an important skill-set that is not addresses by all agencies.

edm81363

September 1st, 2010, 10:48 AM

A very helpful discussion (not so much).

http://www.jerrah.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/someone_is_wrong_on_the_internet1.jpg

Crush

September 1st, 2010, 12:46 PM

A very helpful discussion (not so much).

http://www.jerrah.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/someone_is_wrong_on_the_internet1.jpg

I am certain that the scuba rescue comments were not intended as personal insults to you or msmith304 (who thanked your post). I couldn't help but notice that you are both PADI OW divers or PADI instructors...

InTheDrink

September 1st, 2010, 03:04 PM

A very helpful discussion (not so much).

http://www.jerrah.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/someone_is_wrong_on_the_internet1.jpg

That's one of the funniest posts I've read or cartoons I've seen. How true, how terribly true!!! :D

NWGratefulDiver

September 1st, 2010, 04:15 PM

I am certain that the scuba rescue comments were not intended as personal insults to you or msmith304 (who thanked your post). I couldn't help but notice that you are both PADI OW divers or PADI instructors...

Perhaps this thread simply isn't the place for that discussion, considering that ...

- we don't really know whether or not training had anything to do with the accident
- we don't really know whether the victim was PADI trained
- the subject's been covered ad nauseum in other threads and forums

Perhaps Ed and those like him who are PADI trained are just feeling like there's no place on ScubaBoard to escape the beat of that particular drum ... despite the fact that it is an indictment of everyone who chooses that particular agency.

I know Ed ... I consider him a friend, and have had the pleasure of following his progression from a new diver to someone who has worked hard to make diving safer for quite a few of our local divers. I empathise with how he and others like him feel. And despite the fact that I agree with some of the observations that were made earlier in the conversation, perhaps this isn't an appropriate place to get into a discussion on the shortcomings of agency standards.

Let's wish this woman a speedy recovery ... without further information I'm not sure we can have any kind of constructive discussion on how to prevent accidents like this one in the future. We simply do not know why it happened in the first place.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

John C. Ratliff

September 1st, 2010, 08:19 PM

NWGratefulDiver

September 1st, 2010, 09:46 PM

Bob,

I understand your feelings here, but it is better to discuss actions we feel we can take in our own diving than to speculate on an accident where, as you say, we'll probably never know what exactly happened. We do know that there was a breakdown somewhere, which left a diver in jeopardy though.

SeaRat

I agree, John ... what I don't want to see is this turning into another discussion about the shortcomings of one particular agency's standards ... because there's no reason to believe that had anything to do with the accident.

To address your point more directly ... I believe that, if anything, a more fruitful discussion would be one that encourages people to practice the skills they did learn at whatever level of training they had ... because without practice, a diver doesn't retain the ability to put those skills to use when they are needed.

Whatever a diver's certification ... whatever their agency ... what differentiates safe divers from those who will succumb to problems leading to accident is their ability to act calmly and rationally during moments of stress. The differentiator is more often the diver's confidence in their abilities than it is who trained them, or even what skills they learned ... we all share an ability to reason through a problem if we remain calm enough to do so.

So if we ... as educators ... truly wish people to learn from someone else's misfortune, then I think the first question we should pose is "when was the last time you practiced your skills ... whether those skills include rescue, or even the simplest things like clearing a mask or sharing air during an ascent.

The key message is that as long as you are breathing, there is no emergency ... there is merely a problem that must be dealt with. The difference between success and failure is the ability to deal with it calmly, and with the confidence that comes from practice.

Doing something once in a class doesn't teach you a skill ... it only shows you how to learn it. Learning comes through repetition.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

DandyDon

September 1st, 2010, 09:54 PM

From what I have seen in my travels, it's not so much what it taught anyway so what is practice - including with me.

bowlofpetunias

September 2nd, 2010, 04:24 AM

IMHO some personalities are more likely to have the fight (problem solving) response than a flight (panic) response. How they respond to stress in one area of life is likely to be indicative of how they respond in other areas. In other words some people are less prone to panic than others.

The only way to solve this issue is to practice skill sets until they are so ingrained that they become the automatic response to a triggering event. Practice take the stress out of events and make them manageable.

The amount of practice required will depend on the person the attrition of unused skills is what makes ongoing courses and and practice vital.

We don't know how that or even if that applies to this situation but anything that triggers people to keep skills up is worthwhile!

DCBC

September 2nd, 2010, 07:33 AM

...I believe that, if anything, a more fruitful discussion would be one that encourages people to practice the skills they did learn at whatever level of training they had ... because without practice, a diver doesn't retain the ability to put those skills to use when they are needed.

I agree Bob. We should encourage people to practice the skills that they were taught and realize the skills that have been omitted from their education so they can quickly acquire them. To live in a bubble oblivious to what may be reasonably required of them in an emergency is tragic and is worthy of discussion.

Tricia

September 5th, 2010, 06:03 AM

Rescue training is great, but I'd like to see more OW divers who know to keep the reg in their mouth until back on the boat/shore...

Don, I admit that when I saw this in one of your posts on another forum last year, I thought it seemed kind of silly: keeping the reg in your mouth until you get to the bench?

But because I've learned so much from you and others on this board, I started doing it. This summer, when diving in the Bahamas, I got back to the bench with the reg in mouth and notice some students across from me giggling about it. Their instructor backed me up, saying I was being prudent.

Then on the next dive, I'm on the surface with reg in mouth and the student group happened to surface then, too (all maintaining regs in their mouths). As we watched, an "experienced buddy diver" boarded the boat and pulled her reg out to make a comment. Right then, a wave hit the boat and yep! She went flying back over! She came up sputtering and slamming the reg into her mouth.

The students boarded first, then me and my buddy. As I sat down, I looked over and there they all were - with their regs in their mouths! :D

Just glad they learned without getting hurt. I'm so glad to have you on this board! :cheerleader:

Trish

DandyDon

September 6th, 2010, 06:20 PM

Don, I admit that when I saw this in one of your posts on another forum last year, I thought it seemed kind of silly: keeping the reg in your mouth until you get to the bench?

But because I've learned so much from you and others on this board, I started doing it. This summer, when diving in the Bahamas, I got back to the bench with the reg in mouth and notice some students across from me giggling about it. Their instructor backed me up, saying I was being prudent.

Then on the next dive, I'm on the surface with reg in mouth and the student group happened to surface then, too (all maintaining regs in their mouths). As we watched, an "experienced buddy diver" boarded the boat and pulled her reg out to make a comment. Right then, a wave hit the boat and yep! She went flying back over! She came up sputtering and slamming the reg into her mouth.

The students boarded first, then me and my buddy. As I sat down, I looked over and there they all were - with their regs in their mouths! :D

Just glad they learned without getting hurt. I'm so glad to have you on this board! :cheerleader:

Trish
Neat story! Maybe you're overly kind for my part, and I'm not sure where I learned that, but some of it came from reading stories here and elsewhere about other divers like yours who got hit by a wave without, but didn't survive, and other sad stories. Anyway, thanks for the kind words. Some of my ideas are better than others... :eyebrow:

justaguest

September 9th, 2010, 10:49 AM

Just to inform everyone the woman passed away on Sept.6th.

99north

September 9th, 2010, 11:45 AM

This is sad news for sure.
I'm sure her family is heartbroken......
I would think the entire dive community is saddened by this tragedy as well.

Its unfortunate that accidents happen but this should be a learning lesson for us all when diving.....follows the rules,,,,be conservative and keep it fun and safe.

tregrrr

September 9th, 2010, 01:45 PM

Well that is disappointing. Nobody ever wants this outcome. I hope that we both as a group, and as individuals are able to learn something- anything- from the tragic toll this lady has paid. Thus far, without any concrete information of what happened, I for one am taking away from this incident an renewed awareness that "it" can happen to anyone anytime and on any dive, and also a vicious reminder that we are going into an inhospitable environment and need to keep that at the forefront of our minds on each dive.

Perhaps we can all take a moment before our next dive to go over procedures for an OOA ascent. IF it IS second nature for you and your buddy, then an extra, quick, mental run-through will likely suffice. IF NOT, talk it over with your buddy so that you are both playing from the same game plan if the dive goes south. Remember, the dive is not over until everyone is on dry land, so include surfacing and oral inflation procedures in your plan. Yes there is a vocal group among SB'ers who do practice this every dive, but for the rest of the recreational diving world this reminder could help someone somewhere mitigate their own incident.

While I am not saying that this is what went wrong, in view of what we understand happened, this may be more beneficial than a "moment of silence"

Cruisin Home

September 9th, 2010, 04:03 PM

let me propose something that will surely date me and be considered not in-vogue but i grew up diving with a good old fashioned inner tube with flag attached and basket in middle. tying my reel to this has always served me well:
1) It gets seen by boats better,
2) provides surface floatation if tired or injured
3) holds extra gear (mask snorkel),
4) provides a very effective and safe upline for ordinary or emergency ascents
5) can tie my gear off
6) can hang extra bottles
7) great to stow catch (bugs, portholes, etc.)

I know I am going to be attacked for such an outdated technique but it has served me well for thousands of dives.

if this woman had this would she have died? that's a question

Crush

September 9th, 2010, 04:20 PM

cruiser

September 9th, 2010, 04:24 PM

I like your idea, Cruisin Home.

Me too.

rob1967

October 4th, 2010, 12:18 AM

I found out a bit more info regarding this sad incident. Although it is second-hand, it can perhaps shed a bit more light on it.

The decedent was buddied up with a friend of a friend of mine. They were acquainted through a dive club.

She ran out of air in about 90 feet of water. This occurred quite early in the dive, perhaps only 11 minutes or so. She was obviously breathing very fast, for whatever reason. Her buddy managed to share air and bring her to the surface, but at the surface, she failed to establish positive buoyancy and was climbing over the buddy, so the buddy had to disengage from her to save his own skin. She then sank back down, the alert was called, and she was found by a dive master or instructor in about 20 minutes. The rescuer got bent in the process. I assume he was ok after a chamber ride.

Lesson learned: One must always remember to establish positive buoyancy at the surface. In an out-of-air situation, this means ditching weights and/or orally inflating the BCD. Sadly, many victims in out-of-air situations fail to do either of these in a panic, and subsequently drown after reaching the surface.

DandyDon

October 4th, 2010, 01:54 AM

Lesson learned: One must always remember to establish positive buoyancy at the surface. In an out-of-air situation, this means ditching weights and/or orally inflating the BCD. Sadly, many victims in out-of-air situations fail to do either of these in a panic, and subsequently drown after reaching the surface.
Thanks Rob. There may well be more potential lessons here, like monitoring one's SPG well, monitoring the buddy's Spg, predive discussions on the dive plan, how to ditch the other's weights if indicated, etc. I understand that you are sharing what you've heard and don't have direct access to the details.

I do certainly agree tho, that ditching weights and orally inflating failures have been indicated in far too many losses seen on this form. Directly because of these, my bud & I drill on both skills at the first of any dive trip, locally or away. I really don't cover enough with instant buddies I don't guess; need to work on that.

boulderjohn

October 4th, 2010, 10:48 AM

She ran out of air in about 90 feet of water. This occurred quite early in the dive, perhaps only 11 minutes or so. She was obviously breathing very fast, for whatever reason.

Or she did not have a full tank to start with and didn't check the pressure before diving. That is what happened in the only OOA incident I was ever near.

In any case, the failure to achieve buoyancy while on the surface due to panic is a problem you hear about all too often.

Adobo

October 4th, 2010, 02:52 PM

Thanks Rob. There may well be more potential lessons here, like monitoring one's SPG well, monitoring the buddy's Spg, predive discussions on the dive plan, how to ditch the other's weights if indicated, etc. I understand that you are sharing what you've heard and don't have direct access to the details.

I do certainly agree tho, that ditching weights and orally inflating failures have been indicated in far too many losses seen on this form. Directly because of these, my bud & I drill on both skills at the first of any dive trip, locally or away. I really don't cover enough with instant buddies I don't guess; need to work on that.

Not sure about this incident in specific but in general, a diver with an empty tank should not be more than a pound or two negative at the surface even with a wing fully deflated. I imagine with fighting 2lbs of being negative is not that hard, particularly in a panic.

Being over-weighted clearly is not the root cause for this incident but in general, it is something that can complicate emergency situations.

Crush

October 4th, 2010, 03:26 PM

She ran out of air in about 90 feet of water. This occurred quite early in the dive, perhaps only 11 minutes or so.

I have taken Rescue Diver. We have always practiced getting an unconscious diver to the surface by making them positively buoyant. This assumes their power inflator is working. What would you do with someone who was truly (SPG=0 psi) out of air at depth? Would you try to orally inflate their vest to begin the rescue, or make yourself buoyant instead? I think that I would try #2 out of simplicity, but I'd hate to lose my grip...

DandyDon

October 4th, 2010, 03:37 PM

I have taken Rescue Diver. We have always practiced getting an unconscious diver to the surface by making them positively buoyant. This assumes their power inflator is working. What would you do with someone who was truly (SPG=0 psi) out of air at depth? Would you try to orally inflate their vest to begin the rescue, or make yourself buoyant instead? I think that I would try #2 out of simplicity, but I'd hate to lose my grip...
Since you asked, I hope I would be looking for their weight releases on ascent, but then I have never brought up a real emergency. All of mine have been LOA only. The emergency of the situation could challenge thinking of course.

And some don't have weights to release. For those, look for kit releases, as she would float without the kit.

That said, I am sure the rescuer did his best and I am not trying to fault his efforts, but simply offering future ideas.

Peter Guy

October 4th, 2010, 04:26 PM

Would you try to orally inflate their vest to begin the rescue, or make yourself buoyant instead?
I hope I would orally inflate their BCD to get us neutral/slightly positive on the bottom to begin the ascent. The problem with having ME really positive to lift "us" off the bottom is that IF something happened and I lost control of the victim, she'd sink and I'd rocket -- OTOH if the victim is positive ad I lost control, she'd rise and I'd sink, which is something I could easily fix.

Crush

October 4th, 2010, 04:46 PM

Since you asked, I hope I would be looking for their weight releases on ascent, but then I have never brought up a real emergency. All of mine have been LOA only. The emergency of the situation could challenge thinking of course.

Since the OOA was being managed with an octo I would hope for a slow, controlled ascent. Dumping weights would not be my first choice until already on the surface.

I hope I would orally inflate their BCD to get us neutral/slightly positive on the bottom to begin the ascent. The problem with having ME really positive to lift "us" off the bottom is that IF something happened and I lost control of the victim, she'd sink and I'd rocket -- OTOH if the victim is positive ad I lost control, she'd rise and I'd sink, which is something I could easily fix.

That is what I was taught - make the victim positive. However, getting my face close to a diver who is possibly panicked while temporarily removing my octo from my mouth (so as as to orally inflate their BC) is not my idea of fun. I guess that is one very strong reason to bungee your octo around your neck - that way, it will always be yours, even if a panicked diver tries to take it. This supposes that they don't strangle you in the process...

DandyDon

October 4th, 2010, 05:13 PM

Since the OOA was being managed with an octo I would hope for a slow, controlled ascent. Dumping weights would not be my first choice until already on the surface.
Agreed! By "would be looking for their weight releases on ascent" I meant in preparation in case needed at surface.

Was she is a BC or Plate...??

Crush

October 4th, 2010, 05:32 PM

Agreed! By "would be looking for their weight releases on ascent" I meant in preparation in case needed at surface.

Was she is a BC or Plate...??

With a pair of trusty EMT shears it doesn't matter. :)

DandyDon

October 4th, 2010, 05:57 PM

With a pair of trusty EMT shears it doesn't matter. :)
If recreational BC, there would be dumpable weights or a belt.

If Plate, maybe not, depending on exposure suit. Might have to ditch kit.

Roko

October 4th, 2010, 11:38 PM

I think the trick with the plate is to balance well what's ditchable weight, and what's fixed to your rig.. I'd hate to have no ditchable weight. (For recreational diving.. can't speak for Tech) I think right now roughly half of my weight is ditchable, and I have sheers easily accessible if I need to cut off (or be cut out) in a hurry.

It's unfortunate that weights don't get ditched in a panic in so many of these cases. I've got integrated weight pockets at the moment on my BP/W (thinking of just going to a separate belt, but that's neither here nor there), but I made sure to find out where I can replace them to get over that psychological barrier for losing them in an emergency.

It's a bit sobering when an incident is somewhere you dive a lot.

Roko

October 4th, 2010, 11:46 PM

To add to my last, in the Army the phrase "Train like you fight, fight like you train" is thrown around a lot, and I really believe in that mantra from my experience. If weights are only "simulated" dropped in training, I believe it can be harder to wrap your head around actually dropping them in an emergency -- When your brain shuts down in a panic, it's muscle memory and trained reflex that carries you through your actions.

But I suppose repetitively dropping weights in training would make for a lot of lost weights, as I don't think it would stick in your mind if you do it only once or twice in OW then never again -- repetition is key. Worth it IMNSHO, especially if you make sure the weights/pockets/belt are brightly coloured and retrievable.

DandyDon

October 5th, 2010, 12:53 AM

But I suppose repetitively dropping weights in training would make for a lot of lost weights, as I don't think it would stick in your mind if you do it only once or twice in OW then never again -- repetition is key. Worth it IMNSHO, especially if you make sure the weights/pockets/belt are brightly coloured and retrievable.
We don't drop on practice dives as it's an 84 ft hole with silt bottom and crowded at times, and on trips - again, too deep, not good timing. The first time we simulated tho, it was clumsy, drove home the need to practice.

I think maybe I will wrap my weight pocket handles in red tape tho, in case someone else needs to find them...

Roko

October 5th, 2010, 12:58 AM

That's what I'm thinking.. my pockets are nice super-diver-black.. They should be neon.. Especially since most of the time they're just tucked away inside the carrier anyways.

I agree with some dive sites not conducive for actually dropping weights for training.

bowlofpetunias

October 5th, 2010, 03:15 AM

Interesting point.. I think I will be putting some marine grade reflective tape on both sides of my weight pockets!

Ayisha

October 5th, 2010, 11:29 PM

I think the trick with the plate is to balance well what's ditchable weight, and what's fixed to your rig.. I'd hate to have no ditchable weight. (For recreational diving.. can't speak for Tech) I think right now roughly half of my weight is ditchable, and I have sheers easily accessible if I need to cut off (or be cut out) in a hurry. bold added

I am quite sure that rec divers do not need ditchable weight. Rec divers should be weighted correctly as they do not have extraneous gear. Rec divers should be able to swim up their rig if they are weighted correctly to be neutrally buoyant at the end of the dive if their tank were to be nearly empty.

Being able to ditch weight to float a few inches higher at the surface (for someone who is correctly weighted) is very different from the tech concept of ditchable weight, which could be any type of ballast, like a can light, camera equipment, etc.

Crush

October 5th, 2010, 11:58 PM

bold added

I am quite sure that rec divers do not need ditchable weight. Rec divers should be weighted correctly as they do not have extraneous gear. Rec divers should be able to swim up their rig if they are weighted correctly to be neutrally buoyant at the end of the dive if their tank were to be nearly empty.

That depends either upon your risk tolerance or upon the degree of redundancy in your lift. If you are properly weighted and have a drysuit many would argue that you needn't worry about ditchable weight since a sudden catastrophic failure in your lift bladder could be overcome. If you are diving wet, and your thick suit might reach a compression of -20 lbs or more, good luck trying to swim that up if there is a sudden and dramatic failure of your lift bladder - better to be able to ditch weight and worry about DCS as you suck sweet air on the surface.

Ayisha

October 6th, 2010, 12:25 AM

As long as rec divers don't think they should overweight themselves so they have excess weight to remove. You might be surprised that some people actually think this way. More divers are probably over-weighted than correctly weighted. Most tech divers, OTOH, do start out quite over-weighted but have lift redundancies and ditchable weight. Most divers are able to ditch weight, whether it's on a belt or in pockets. Hopefully it's all reachable. A balanced rig is of course the way to go. If injury is imminent, I agree that bent is better than dead. Let's leave a buoyant ascent at the bottom of the options, though, if we can, with the first option to do everything we can to avoid the accident followed by the next safest options if necessary.

DandyDon

October 6th, 2010, 12:43 AM

I wouldn't want to drop weights at depth if I could avoid it at all. My home bud dropped his weight belt on our first post-cert dive, 62F water, 7 mile Farmer John suits, popped up like a cork. He didn't tell me until long after that he ached for months - we were brand new and his GF was whining, but it could have been much worse if he'd held his breath. He hadn't thot that DAN dive insurance was needed either. :shocked2:

Diving Vancouver, whether in the thickest neoprene suit I had or a dry suit, I'd expect to be carry a lot of lead entering the water. I'm pretty good at estimating with various wet suits I own, fresh vs salt. My bud gets confused and I lost track long ago of how many times he needed to add after entering. For us two tall, fat boys tho, saltwater below 60F, I'd say 28 for me and 32 for him as I've learned to watch his weight calls. We could try him at 30# as that's all our BC pockets hold, but I think we'd need to strap some more to him - 20# ditchable for either of us, on surface.

Warmer climes, I may only have 14-16# total, 8# ditchable with him a little more. He's lost weight lately but taller, and - other factors. We're all somewhat different.

Others I have dived with: I've seen those who could not stay down on a SS, and I've seen some who sank like anchors with the DM suggesting much less for the next dive - but some don't need much at all, mostly the slender folks, which I have not been since the Marines. Anyway, there is a lot of variance, and some over weighting mistakes.

If I was doing my first ever real rescue on someone I didn't know, gawd - I wouldn't know what to expect from their gear. Kudos to the poor fellow who tried but had to escape as he did his best and was her only hope, but in the emergency situation how many of us would prepare for the possible need to dump her weights, and know what to grab & how?

I'm doing to try to keep that in mind in case I ever come across a similar need, and if I can't find lead to drop - consider their kits. I would think that anyone would float in a 7 mil, saltwater, no kit, but that is drastic. Having seconds to decide is scary.

Adobo

October 6th, 2010, 01:27 PM

bold added

I am quite sure that rec divers do not need ditchable weight. Rec divers should be weighted correctly as they do not have extraneous gear. Rec divers should be able to swim up their rig if they are weighted correctly to be neutrally buoyant at the end of the dive if their tank were to be nearly empty.

Being able to ditch weight to float a few inches higher at the surface (for someone who is correctly weighted) is very different from the tech concept of ditchable weight, which could be any type of ballast, like a can light, camera equipment, etc.

I agree with you here. The question around ditchable weight, while interesting, is not nearly as important as the question on why the diver would need to ditch weight to stay on the surface at the end of the dive with an empty tank.

DandyDon

October 6th, 2010, 01:48 PM

I agree with you here. The question around ditchable weight, while interesting, is not nearly as important as the question on why the diver would need to ditch weight to stay on the surface at the end of the dive with an empty tank.
Some do. A few experiences...

As I said earlier, I prefer slightly negative at the end so I can sink quickly if desired to dodge an approaching craft.

When my home bud was new, on a trip to Coz, he had to overweight a bit to sink as he would not relax and exhale - a common problem with newbies. On the surface, his rental BC barely floated him and I recall him gasping for air once, me repeatedly telling him to put his reg back in his mouth. One more time and I was going for his weights.

Then he borrowed a bigger BC from the group Inst who'd flaked out. Once in the water, we noticed that there was a loose connection. We're both better at checking gear now but getting him down and keeping him down in shallows is still a challenge at times.

And if you read a hundred death threads on this A&I forum, you'll find too many cases where the divers made it to the surface, then sunk, body found later with weights attached.

Adobo

October 6th, 2010, 04:54 PM

Some do. A few experiences...

As I said earlier, I prefer slightly negative at the end so I can sink quickly if desired to dodge an approaching craft.

When my home bud was new, on a trip to Coz, he had to overweight a bit to sink as he would not relax and exhale - a common problem with newbies. On the surface, his rental BC barely floated him and I recall him gasping for air once, me repeatedly telling him to put his reg back in his mouth. One more time and I was going for his weights.

Then he borrowed a bigger BC from the group Inst who'd flaked out. Once in the water, we noticed that there was a loose connection. We're both better at checking gear now but getting him down and keeping him down in shallows is still a challenge at times.

And if you read a hundred death threads on this A&I forum, you'll find too many cases where the divers made it to the surface, then sunk, body found later with weights attached.

When I say overweighted, I am not referring to being 1-3lbs overweighted at the end of the dive. That's easy to overcome with a half a lungful of air. And it's certainly easy enough to overcome if you are kicking furiously with fins on (which I would imagine to be the case if the diver was in a panic).

This diver, with an empty tank at the surface (wet suit expanded) presumably moving like crazy was unable to remain at the surface. I don't think we are talking about 1-3lbs overweighted here.

While it is valid to talk about ditching weight and so on, for me, the best way to get ahead of being unable to stay at the surface is to not start out so overweighted in the first place.

Roko

October 6th, 2010, 05:01 PM

Crush

October 6th, 2010, 06:27 PM

This diver, with an empty tank at the surface (wet suit expanded) presumably moving like crazy was unable to remain at the surface. I don't think we are talking about 1-3lbs overweighted here.

If she was wearing neoprene, the neoprene compresses slowly (slower than the air in your wing, at any rate) during descent and expands much more slowly upon ascent. It is not uncommon to be more negative at the end of a dive with less air in the tank than you were at the beginning of the dive, especially if the suit is old (e.g., a rental) and the water is very cold. While she may have been "moving like crazy" her motions were not necessarily effective. I would not blame her drowning on being overweighted - we have no way of ascertaining this. What we can see directly contributed to her death was an inability to fill her lift bladder with air and/or she needed to ditch weights. DandyDon is right.

Adobo

October 6th, 2010, 11:19 PM

It's nice to be close to neutral at the end of a dive with an empty tank, but what happens if something goes wrong half way through a dive? At the start of a dive?

My HP100's will swing 7.5lbs from full to empty.

Even if you can still keep your head above the surface in an emergency, if "stuff" is going sideways, do you want to be struggling against that?

I fully agree about proper weighting regardless of ditchable or non-ditchable weight.

Agreed. It could happen that at the beginning of the dive and at depth, your wing has a catastrophic failure. It is at this time that you will be most negative - your tank is full of gas, your wing is not holding gas and whatever buoyancy your suit was providing at the surface is all but gone due to compression. Anyway, this scenario only reinforces the idea that a divers should be properly weighted to start out with.

The scenario for this unfortunate diver was completely different though. Her tank was empty so that al80 she was presumably using had swung 6 or so lbs in buoyancy. She is at the surface so the suit is partially recovered from compression and whatever gas she had in her wing at depth has now expanded.

If she is vertical with any leg movement then her fins are generating upward thrust. If with all that she cannot keep her head above water well, I'll put it like this, doing a weight check at the end of a dive with 300psi of gas in my tanks, I got dump every ounce of gas out of my wing and empty out my lungs to re-descend from the surface. That's with 300psi.