Diver dead after accident in Lake Ontario near Oakville

[DandyDon]

TheSpec - Diver dead after accident in Lake Ontario near... (http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/253032--diver-dead-after-accident-off-bronte-harbour)

OAKVILLE — An autopsy will be held today on the body of a man who died as a result of a diving accident in Lake Ontario.

The man – whose name has not been released – died of his injuries at Oakville-Trafalgar Memorial Hospital Wednesday afternoon after he was pulled from the lake by police marine officers.

An autopsy is scheduled at Hamilton General Hospital today.

His name is not being released at the request of his family, said Sergeant Dave Cross of Halton police.

A second man injured in the accident is in fair condition in the same hospital, Cross said.

A dive boat with three men is believed to have been about two kilometres from shore and in about 85 metres of water when something went wrong.

Cross said police received a distress call at about 3 p.m. and police marine units from Halton, Peel and Toronto responded and located three men with the boat.

The divers were brought by police to a pier at the end of Navy Street, near the mouth of Sixteen Mile Creek.

The man who died in hospital was pulled from the water without vital signs by the Toronto police marine unit. The second man was brought to shore by the Peel police marine unit.

It’s been reported the three men were planning to dive to the wreck of the Jesse Anne, a steel tugboat from the 1880s which had been converted to a barge and later eventually intentionally sunk off the Oavkille harbour.

A police vessel towed a dive boat with the word Aquaholic.ca on the side into the harbour.

Aquaholic.ca is the web address of a dive charter company, which runs regular dive charters and excursions to the shipwrecks of the lower Great Lakes, the Niagara and lower St. Lawrence rivers. The organization also offers scuba instruction.

[gitterdun]

While it is very sad that a diver has died, it is amazing how inaccurate the information in this report (and others) is (are)...

The wreck they were diving was not the one listed, the depth was not 85 meters, and there was even a report that they were diving without scuba equipment.

Let's hope that once the investigation is through, that we can get the straight facts and learn from it.

Thoughts and prayers to friends and family.

[DandyDon]

While it is very sad that a diver has died, it is amazing how inaccurate the information in this report (and others) is (are)...

The wreck they were diving was not the one listed, the depth was not 85 meters, and there was even a report that they were diving without scuba equipment.

Let's hope that once the investigation is through, that we can get the straight facts and learn from it.

Thoughts and prayers to friends and family.
Facts from subsequent investigations seldom appear on the net. We start with the lame news stories and hope others with facts will post them.

[gitterdun]

Facts from subsequent investigations seldom appear on the net. We start with the lame news stories and hope others with facts will post them.

Of course. It's just way out of whack to say 85 meters, when I don't even think there is a spot where they were (<edited to appease) that goes near that depth. It was more like 40 meters.

Edit.. It appears that there are spots that deep in the lake... but not where they were...

[gitterdun]

...they were in 40 meters of water.

[Crush]

Here is a more current article with more information: InsideHalton Article: Man dies in scuba diving mishap (http://www.insidehalton.com/news/article/868623--man-dies-in-scuba-diving-mishap)



An autopsy will be held today to determine what exactly killed a 37-year-old Welland man who died, Wednesday, following a scuba diving excursion off the coast of Oakville.

Police said three men, all experienced divers from the Niagara Region, were exploring a shipwreck and were about 130 feet underwater when something went wrong.

“The one diver looked over and the second diver indicated that he was in distress. The first diver went over to him and tried to help him out; they exchanged their emergency air bottles and they started up towards the surface,” said Sgt. Brian Carr, Halton police spokesperson.

“The diver who is now deceased became more distressed. The other diver kept it together. They had to slow (their ascent); they were going up too fast. At this point we don’t know if the deceased diver suffered medical distress in the water or equipment distress. We’re not sure, the investigation is continuing.”

Police received a mayday distress signal from the divers’ boat at around 3:30 p.m. with marine units from Halton, Peel and Toronto responding.

The two divers involved in the emergency were taken to east pier of Oakville Harbour where they were transferred to ambulances and taken to Oakville Trafalgar Memorial Hospital with undetermined injuries.

The diver who went into distress has since died while the diver who came to his aid is now listed in fair condition.

A third diver was in the water, but was some distance away from the other two and was not involved in their ascent and was not injured.

The victim has been transported to Hamilton General Hospital where a post mortem examination will be conducted in an effort to determine his exact cause of death.

A police vessel was seen towing a boat with the word Aquaholic.ca on the side.

Aquaholic.ca is the web address of a dive charter company, which runs regular dive charters and excursions to the shipwrecks of the lower Great Lakes, the Niagara and lower St. Lawrence rivers.

The organization also offers scuba instruction.

Police said no charges have been laid at this time.

The identity of the deceased man has not been released at his family’s request.

The Halton Regional Police Service is continuing to investigate this incident and anyone with information related to it is asked to contact the Oakville Criminal Investigations Bureau at 905-825-4747 ext. 2213.

[Graeme Tolton]

It appears from this link
TheSpec - Diver dead after accident in Lake Ontario near... (http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/253032--diver-dead-after-accident-in-lake-ontario-near-oakville)
that Aquaholics Dive charters was involved in the accident. Wednesday dives that were planned, according to the facebook page for aquaholics were lyman davis 135', sligo 66', bermingham crane. 135'. In time, details may come out... However, we might not get any details. This will be a very stressful time for everyone involved, including friends, family and many other local divers.

[flots am]

I don't know squat about the incident, but can tell you that below the thermocline, Ontario can easily be in the very low 40's.

Given the number of freeflows and divers that are unprepared for the temperature, depth and gas requirements, I can only say that I'm amazed there aren't more problems.

flots.

[Graeme Tolton]

I don't know squat about the incident, but can tell you that below the thermocline, Ontario can easily be in the very low 40's.

Given the number of freeflows and divers that are unprepared for the temperature, depth and gas requirements, I can only say that I'm amazed there aren't more problems.

flots.

Yes, this is true. We do have cold water temps here, even after a super hot summer like we have just had. However, there has been no mention as to what has caused this accident.

[cruiser]

When diving those depths and temps, are there required cold water regs that are part of everyone's gear? If someone showed up on the boat in a reg that absolutely couldn't handle those temps, would they be pulled aside and told they're not going to dive? I don't dive that cold so I don't know about cold water regs.

[Warren_L]

I've dove this site many times - It is the site of the Bermingam Crane just out of Oakville harbor. Water levels may have fallen a bit over the years, but currently maxes out at about 145 ft. Most of the dive is generally done around 130-135 ft, visibility is generally good, but occasionally can be poor. Water temps are typically in the high 30s to mid 40s. Most times it is a fairly straight forward tech dive with not a lot of deco time for the bottom times that are usually run, but if conditions are bad (poor viz, current, cold water) it can turn pretty challenging.

I dread hearing about these, especially at our local sites. My thoughts and prayers go out to all involved.

[Graeme Tolton]

When diving those depths and temps, are there required cold water regs that are part of everyone's gear? If someone showed up on the boat in a reg that absolutely couldn't handle those temps, would they be pulled aside and told they're not going to dive? I don't dive that cold so I don't know about cold water regs.

No. Typically everyone is allowed to dive however they want. Most divers here, however dive sealed regs (sealed regs keep water and dirt out, helping to prevent freeflow). Personally, 6 of my 8 1st stages are sealed. Also, most divers here doing dives to the deeper wrecks are most likely to have one or more form of redundant air source, such as doubles, a pony or stage bottle. I am not sure what the bottom temps are in Lake Ontario right now, as I havent dove lake ontario since last winter when everything else was frozen, but I would imagine that it would be mid 40's to low 50's right now. Certainly not as extreme as the temps get.

[Ayisha]

There is a thread about this unfortunate accident on one of our local boards, Ontario Diving. You have to register and you can see it here: Ontario Diving (http://www.ontariodiving.com/showthread.php?t=13530)


Given the number of freeflows and divers that are unprepared for the temperature, depth and gas requirements, I can only say that I'm amazed there aren't more problems.

It is unlikely that anyone who would dive on the Bermingham Crane would be unprepared for the conditions. It is not a typical or beginning Ontario dive where divers often find out how appropriate their gear is or isn't. The divers would/should normally be tech or very experienced divers with redundant gear and a lot of previous dives in extremely cold, deep water and similar conditions. Most Ontario divers have not done the Bermingham Crane due to it's location and conditions.

[The Horn]

Very sad news to hear,

If the person who passed away is the fellow that I knew (no names have been released), very tragic. He was not any where near prepared for a dive to 145' with any sort of DECO obligation. Very poor judgment. Hopefully all the facts will somewhat come out and clear things up.

[PfcAJ]

Anyone know what gas they were diving?

[Country Diver]

This dive is not a recreational dive by any means...besides the depth, there can be strong currents on the surface to quite a depth down, the main line for boats to tie off on is rarely up, so it has to be raised by divers usually following a shot line.

The news reporters did an amazing job at screwing up almost every detail of this tragic day. Everything from them diving the tugs at 60 ft, jumping in without scuba gear, location... We refer to the Hamilton Spectator as the Hamilton Speculator. The TV news reports were no better.

The family was notified, names are not released as a request at the moment, facts are trickling out. Friends, family and people who knew the victim are dealing with their thoughts and feelings at the moment.

It was an avoidable tragedy. Thoughts go out to his family and friends.

[Rick Murchison]

I have removed the pissin' contest from this thread, along with allusions to it in other posts. Please review the rules for the Accidents & Incidents forum and stick to them.
Thank you.
Rick
The purpose of this forum is the promotion of safe diving through the examination and discussion of accidents and incidents; to find lessons we can apply to our own diving.
Accidents, and incidents that could easily have become accidents, can often be used to illustrate actions that lead to injury or death, and their discussion is essential to building lessons learned from which improved safety can flow. To foster the free exchange of information valuable to this process, the "manners" in this forum are much more tightly controlled than elsewhere on the board. In addition to the TOS:

(1) You may not release any names here, until after the names have appeared in the public domain (articles, news reports, sheriff's report etc.) The releasing report must be cited. Until such public release, the only name you may use in this forum is your own.
(2) Off topic posts will be removed and off topic comments will be edited.
(3) No flaming, name calling or otherwise attacking other posters. You may attack ideas; you may not attack people.
(4) No trolling; no blamestorming. Mishap analysis does not lay blame, it finds causes.
(5) No "condolences to the family" here. Please use our Passings (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/passings/) Forum for these kinds of messages.
(6) If you are presenting information from a source other than your own eyes and ears, cite the source.
(7) If your post is your hypothesis, theory, or a "possible scenario," identify it as such.

[electric_diver]

There is a thread about this unfortunate accident on one of our local boards, Ontario Diving. You have to register and you can see it here: Ontario Diving (http://www.ontariodiving.com/showthread.php?t=13530)


Unfortunately that thread has no useful information either.

[flots am]

When diving those depths and temps, are there required cold water regs that are part of everyone's gear? If someone showed up on the boat in a reg that absolutely couldn't handle those temps, would they be pulled aside and told they're not going to dive? I don't dive that cold so I don't know about cold water regs.

The boats up here don't generally do that sort of thing. It usually works like this:


You show up for the boat and pay for the ride
The boat goes somewhere
You jump in if you think your qualifed
You come back later
The boat takes you back to shore.

There isn't a divemaster unless you brought one or paid for one and the captain just drives the boat.

flots.

edit: it's not usually externally obvious which regs are good to what temperature or depth.

[Jimmer]

When diving those depths and temps, are there required cold water regs that are part of everyone's gear? If someone showed up on the boat in a reg that absolutely couldn't handle those temps, would they be pulled aside and told they're not going to dive? I don't dive that cold so I don't know about cold water regs.

I've made friendly suggestions, occasionally even offering someone my pony bottle, but no, it's not common place here in the great lakes to tell someone they can't dive what they brought. Most of the divers we get on our charter boat in Lake Erie, show up with either doubles, or sling a pony bottle, and the serious ones always use good cold water regs.

I have been witness (from the boat topside) of several massive freeflows at depth, and in every case, that diver was VERY nervous, and showed up with a new reg and/or pony bottle the next time we saw them.

[rmaddog]

The diver in question is my cousin. This was their second dive of the day and everything was fine. Contrary to reports. He was found on the bottom unresponsive, and pulled up from there. No one knows right now what went wrong but obviously something did. He was more than experienced to handle these dives and his gear was more than OK so speculation needs to stop and wait for the results of the police investigation. I am tired of reading peoples opinions about what the news has said, the news has been 100% wrong so far. I am at a loss myself for what went wrong, but until all info is available opinions only lead to more misinformation, which doesn't help anyone. I will post again when we find out more info.

[NetDoc]

Inflammatory statements, and those responding to them have been deleted.

This is tragic enough without trying to use it to make digs at other shops.

Continued discussion along that vein or about the moderation of this thread will result in at least a thread ban.

If you want to question this action, please use PMs or take it up in site support.

[rmaddog]

Please don't stop this thread as I think everyone can learn from it, but the information needs to be correct. Just wait for the proper info and then make speculations the new is not a good source of info.

[Garth]

Unfortunately news is first information. Then a long time goes by and we may get a vague police report. Hope this is not the case.

[Ayisha]

In Ontario, the OUC (Ontario Underwater Council) will make a preliminary report on the known facts within 72 hours, so we can expect some info published by tomorrow. They will then update the report as information is added.

Ontario Underwater Council (http://www.underwatercouncil.com/)

[bleeb]

The diver in question is my cousin. This was their second dive of the day and everything was fine. Contrary to reports. He was found on the bottom unresponsive, and pulled up from there. No one knows right now what went wrong but obviously something did. He was more than experienced to handle these dives and his gear was more than OK so speculation needs to stop and wait for the results of the police investigation.

Thank you for the information you've been able to provide. Although this is the Accidents and Incidents part of ScubaBoard and condolences are against the rules in this section, I'm going to offer them anyway, to you and all your family.

I'm guessing that you've come reading here partly because you too want answers and understanding as to what happened. My apologies if that isn't the case. However, if it is, and since you appear to be relatively new to ScubaBoard, I'll offer a strongly recommended word of advice that we frequently offer to all family members who come here hoping for answers: Please don't keep reading this thread.

If you choose to, most of us will more than welcome and appreciate any information or insights you may be able to provide. But you've already gotten a flavour of how people here can often be undiplomatic, or intellectually less than rigorous in differentiating between facts, hypotheses, and valid points of discussions that may have been brought up by this tragedy but that actually have nothing to do with what happened. (Never mind what help 'the media' can be.)

Equally important, this is an accident investigation forum, and accident investigations are generally quite brutal. Many possibility go under the microscope, and since the laudable goal is to try to prevent future accidents, just about everything that could have gone wrong is analysed, whether or not it actually happened. Unfortunately, all this is often quite hard on anyone with a major emotional involvement. More than one discussion of 'what ifs' has unfortunately had to have been stopped because of this, even though there may have been the possibility of saving someone some grief in the future. It's not a situation anyone likes. So please, consider not causing yourself more pain by getting too involved in any such discussions.

Outside of ScubaBoard and the Internet, in the coming days you or other family members will probably continue to be looking for answers. A somewhat related piece of advice people here frequently offer is not to have too high hopes of getting useful information from any investigation by authorities such as police or the coroner. You're a diver, so at least you have some idea what's involved in diving in terms of knowledge and skills. Globally, there are only a few lucky jurisdictions with the knowledge, resources and interest to analyse diving accidents. The vast majority of the time, you get reports like "death by drowning" or "cardiac arrest", which isn't very satisfactory either to family and friends of the deceased, or to the community of divers concerned for the loss of one of their own. (Personally, I wonder whether either of those two causes should henceforth be regarded as professionally inadequate on the part of coroners for any diving fatality.) For your family's sake, if you don't get satisfactory answers, please realise you may have to push. And if you want or need help from a very knowledgeable pool of divers to help you interpret and figure things out, they're here. Even if they tend to have more than a few conversational rough sides you'd have to deal with.

[AcePilot]

Is thread about this accident on the Ontario Diving closed or deleted?
Can anyone open it?
There was some information from DiveAdict guys...

[Ayisha]

Yes, the thread is still going and open. You have to register to view it and it is a no alias, no troll board. Once you've successfully registered, it should be no problem.

[Garth]

Well said Bleeb. Your post is one of the best I've ever read in it's ability to say what all of us here reading this thread wish to have said.

[bsee65]

Well said Bleeb. Your post is one of the best I've ever read in it's ability to say what all of us here reading this thread wish to have said.

Truth. Some Mod ought to grab that one and make it a sticky for family members and other interested parties. Give it a little tweak to make it universal and keep it ready for future use / reference.

[funrecdiver]

Well said Bleeb. Your post is one of the best I've ever read in it's ability to say what all of us here reading this thread wish to have said.

Not ALL of us, only SOME of us.

Personally, I also find the rampant speculation of "what happened" way off topic.

Analysis is based on facts, not rumor and gossip.

Much of the discussion is so far-fectched and off-topic that it simply serves as a type of gossip at the expense of the victim and their family.

The advice to family members who respectfully ask people to stop the unfounded rampant speculation to "don't read this thread" is not something I agree with.

So, please don't say "ALL" agree with bleeb. I respectfully don't agree. I think people should slow down on the speculation based on rumor and gossio and wait for credible facts to be published.

[rmaddog]

I understand what you are saying and not too woried about what is said without fact. Also like you said, the coroner said cause of death was drowning, but we all know it doesn't just happen like that, something else went wrong but we may never know. I am a diver as well that's why this is important to me. I would like to find out what went wrong not just for family, but for everyone so the same thing does not happen to someone else, like i said before I will post info as I get it to hopefully stop the same mishap from happening. Again thank you all for the support and your input is appreciated.

[DandyDon]

I understand what you are saying and not too woried about what is said without fact. Also like you said, the coroner said cause of death was drowning, but we all know it doesn't just happen like that, something else went wrong but we may never know. I am a diver as well that's why this is important to me. I would like to find out what went wrong not just for family, but for everyone so the same thing does not happen to someone else, like i said before I will post info as I get it to hopefully stop the same mishap from happening. Again thank you all for the support and your input is appreciated.
Please accept that our aim here is only for risk & accident analysis, not diver analysis of the diver as a person even tho it might seem that way in some threads. We seldom get facts really, instead working on what-ifs and how to survive them. Your assistance is greatly appreciated in this sad time for your family.

[RobSouthward93]

The Diver was at 130 feet on the sunken crane called, " The Birmingham" it was a dive operation by Eric Cooper, of Aquaholics. They were using full scuba equipment.
I know this becaus I was on the scene and witnessed the diver get brought to shore with full equipment and i heard the radio call announcing their position.

[Country Diver]

Funny that you should say that now...you told the news reporters on CP24 that day that they were most likely on the Jesse Anne (60 ft deep tug)...and went as far as to even give video footage to them to put on their news plug.....

The crane is actually 145 ft to the mud, and is laying on its side.

I feel for the family and friends of the victim and those that were there at the time. The news did a good job at bungling this up, and unfortunately it has lead to a lot of speculation. Until we know what really happened...lets all try to not read too much into the news that is broadcast. Most of it comes from a tip line and everyone plays the expert. Those that have dove this site (I have) know what the conditions can be like there. The only ones that know are the ones that were there, and no doubt they are still in shock and trying to cope.

[Garth]

Not ALL of us, only SOME of us.

Personally, I also find the rampant speculation of "what happened" way off topic.

Analysis is based on facts, not rumor and gossip.

Much of the discussion is so far-fectched and off-topic that it simply serves as a type of gossip at the expense of the victim and their family.

The advice to family members who respectfully ask people to stop the unfounded rampant speculation to "don't read this thread" is not something I agree with.

So, please don't say "ALL" agree with bleeb. I respectfully don't agree. I think people should slow down on the speculation based on rumor and gossio and wait for credible facts to be published.

Okay I won't say all but I won't say some either. Analysis isn't emotional. It's fact driven but in this thread it is helpful to learn of the "what Ifs". If you have read this thread you know I haven't speculated once. But I can't blame anyone who has. Brainstorming brings it all up.

[Garth]

Also the coroner comes up with cause of death. If he found drowning as the cause.. then the victim suffered a drowning incident. The factors may include that the victim entered water. Cause remains. Am I incorrect?

[Ayisha]

That's true. Unless there is an inquest or extra information released, the "cause of death" is almost invariably drowning, which does not shed light on the "cause of the accident". So for our intents and purposes, the results of an autopsy are much less relevant than the results of an analysis of the equipment and gases and eyewitness reports of people who were involved or witnessed the accident.

[Jay Roy]

OUC has released their first report on this accident. Nothing in there that doesn't raise more questions as far as I'm concerned..
http://www.underwatercouncil.com/dow..._in_20 10.pdf (http://www.underwatercouncil.com/downloads/ouc_report_of_ontario_scuba_diving_incidents_in_20 10.pdf)

Also, the report lists this dive as the first dive of the day, and not the second as previously stated by the victim's cousin.
I have the impression that something is being kept secret about this...Doing a no deco dive on the crane makes no sense at all..Its closer to 150 feet in depth...The bottom time would not even be worth gearing up for..

[Garth]

That's true. Unless there is an inquest or extra information released, the "cause of death" is almost invariably drowning, which does not shed light on the "cause of the accident". So for our intents and purposes, the results of an autopsy are much less relevant than the results of an analysis of the equipment and gases and eyewitness reports of people who were involved or witnessed the accident.

it should rule out health related (heart attack, stroke, barotrauma from overexpansion etc).
this would be autopsy related information. Drowning secondary to inhalation of fluid.

There would be less speculation if those involved would expose some of the questions that have been brought up such as level of certification, number of dives, equipment choices etc.
this would all be good information. I think someone else mentioned the secretive nature of the event.

interesting though but unsatisfying due to lack of information.

[Jay Roy]

Knowing the people involved..I`m pretty sure this is all the info we`re going to get.

[Country Diver]

Things don't jive. Report says that it was not a charter, yet we have emails from Tuesday night that its a scheduled charter.

[Zodiacdiverdave]

When diving those depths and temps, are there required cold water regs that are part of everyone's gear? If someone showed up on the boat in a reg that absolutely couldn't handle those temps, would they be pulled aside and told they're not going to dive? I don't dive that cold so I don't know about cold water regs.

I don't think any dive boat would stop someone from diving because they have a perticular model of regulator (you pay your money you take your chances) Having a reg. that is equiped with an enviromental (cold water) kit helps to pevent freeze-ups but having dry air in your tank is more important.
I know that the cause factors of this incident have not been released yet so we can not assume that a regulator freeze-up was the cause. Regardless just FYI, I do a lot of cold weather diving and there are several things I do to prevent a freeze-up, first I insure the air in my cylinders is dry, I have my oun compressor so I know that my filters are good. Next I dry my regulator completely following the rinse, this means connecting it to a cylinder and purging it several times then taking it in to the house and drying it with the plug removed overnight. My standard regulators all have the enviromental kits installed and I use an all metal 2nd stage or a cold water 2nd stage that conducts warm exhaled air to the valve seat area to help prevent freeze-ups. Lastly I do not breath from the reg or purge it until I am underwater, this would only apply if air temps are close to freezing.
ZDD

[Swampdonkey]

I think it is high time that this speculation about what happened stop. Only 3 people know what happen exactly and one of them are dead. Please send your respects to the family and for the love of god come up with better ways to reduce the risks of this happening again ie training and the balls to say no to someone IF they arent ready for the dive.

[Ayisha]

I think it is high time that this speculation about what happened stop. Only 3 people know what happen exactly and one of them are dead. Please send your respects to the family and for the love of god come up with better ways to reduce the risks of this happening again ie training and the balls to say no to someone IF they arent ready for the dive.

The above highlighted passage from your post is speculation, unless you know that the accident is due to lack of training or appropriate experience.


Things don't jive. Report says that it was not a charter, yet we have emails from Tuesday night that its a scheduled charter.

I have that email from Tuesday as well offering the fateful charter for Wednesday to the Lyman Davis, Bermingham Crane and Sligo (though surely not in that order due to depth). I guess we don't know if it got changed to just a friendly dive. Only the two remaining divers know and perhaps whomever the 3 divers communicated their intentions to for that day.

[Jay Roy]

I think it is high time that this speculation about what happened stop. Only 3 people know what happen exactly and one of them are dead. Please send your respects to the family and for the love of god come up with better ways to reduce the risks of this happening again ie training and the balls to say no to someone IF they arent ready for the dive.


I would if I knew who they were..
All I know is a bank account number and a paypal address..

[divergirl1975]

Hello everyone,

I am the OUC (Ontario Underwater Council) regional representative for Ontario South which is where this tragic accident occurred.

I think we all need to stand behind the family at this their time of need and do all that we can to ensure that this tragedy never happens again. Perhaps when we know the true story of what happened, we will be able to make recommendations as to how to prevent this from ever happening again. Please be sure to check out the OUC website to check out the incident report which will continue to be updated as further information becomes available.

We must also be sure to take into account the other two parties that were involved and provide our support to them.

[Garth]

Hello everyone,

I am the OUC (Ontario Underwater Council) regional representative for Ontario South which is where this tragic accident occurred.

I think we all need to stand behind the family at this their time of need and do all that we can to ensure that this tragedy never happens again. Perhaps when we know the true story of what happened, we will be able to make recommendations as to how to prevent this from ever happening again. Please be sure to check out the OUC website to check out the incident report which will continue to be updated as further information becomes available.

We must also be sure to take into account the other two parties that were involved and provide our support to them.

okay, good to meet you. ... but this is a accident analysis forum. You wouldn't happen to know any more facts would you?

[Jay Roy]

okay, good to meet you. ... but this is a accident analysis forum. You wouldn't happen to know any more facts would you?

Nope, take a look at the current OUC report..Its pretty much a waste of bandwidth...Also, how can we ensure this never happens again? I am pretty confident that the true story will NEVER come out..Ever heard the saying, C Y A
Cover your ass...

[divin'gal]

I have spoken to several people close to the three involved in this terrible accident. I can tell you that although there is certainly a bit of confusion surrounding the exact circumstances, there is no covering of asses involved so far as I can see. There are MANY people in the close knit community around these three divers that are trying to sort out the whole event. Analysis of the dive are ongoing, and are quite open. I did not meet any secrecy, simply the desire that the details be clear and correct before publicly discussed. The media made such a mess in the beginning that the family asked for privacy and accuracy. They truly just wish to deal with their grief at this moment.

Be patient. The truth is working its way out of this mess.

[Jay Roy]

Then why are they saying this was not a paid charter, when I have the Aquaholic email from the day before listing Wed as a day of paid charters? Also, most reports say the diver was found on the bottom with no mask and no vitals. OUC report says he has problems on the ascent?

[DandyDon]

Knowing the people involved..I`m pretty sure this is all the info we`re going to get.
:shakehead: That would suck. Hope not the case.

I think it is high time that this speculation about what happened stop. Only 3 people know what happen exactly and one of them are dead. Please send your respects to the family and for the love of god come up with better ways to reduce the risks of this happening again ie training and the balls to say no to someone IF they arent ready for the dive.
Yeah, ok....

respects to the family go on our Passings forum. If there is not a thread yet on this loss, you can start one.

come up with better ways to reduce the risks of this happening again is what this forum is all about - with facts if we can get them, what-ifs if that's all we can work with.

I have spoken to several people close to the three involved in this terrible accident. I can tell you that although there is certainly a bit of confusion surrounding the exact circumstances, there is no covering of asses involved so far as I can see. There are MANY people in the close knit community around these three divers that are trying to sort out the whole event. Analysis of the dive are ongoing, and are quite open. I did not meet any secrecy, simply the desire that the details be clear and correct before publicly discussed. The media made such a mess in the beginning that the family asked for privacy and accuracy. They truly just wish to deal with their grief at this moment.

Be patient. The truth is working its way out of this mess.
Ok, cool - hope to see it. Thanks

[cruiser]

I think it is high time that this speculation about what happened stop. Only 3 people know what happen exactly and one of them are dead. Please send your respects to the family and for the love of god come up with better ways to reduce the risks of this happening again ie training and the balls to say no to someone IF they arent ready for the dive.

Hi Swampdonkey--

Respects and condolences for the family are very important. We do this over on the "Passings" forum. If someone hasn't already started a condolences thread, would you like to?

[Ayisha]

Hello everyone,

I am the OUC (Ontario Underwater Council) regional representative for Ontario South which is where this tragic accident occurred...

Brooke, is that you? I have to say that the OUC accident/incident reports have been getting less and less detailed over the years, with even basic information being glossed over. There must be much more information that could be published at this time than what is in the incident report. There are many contradictions that have been raised and are gaining momentum, rather than being snuffed out with correct, corroborated information. This decision to withhold information appears to be worsening the situation. I hope that you will discuss our concerns as a group with Scott and Raymund as well...

[cruiser]

When diving those depths and temps, are there required cold water regs that are part of everyone's gear? If someone showed up on the boat in a reg that absolutely couldn't handle those temps, would they be pulled aside and told they're not going to dive? I don't dive that cold so I don't know about cold water regs.

Thanks for all the info about cold water regs and deep diving. The dive that we're discussing sounded like a tech dive, so I wondered if boat procedures were different than for rec diving.

[Warren_L]

I have spoken to several people close to the three involved in this terrible accident. I can tell you that although there is certainly a bit of confusion surrounding the exact circumstances, there is no covering of asses involved so far as I can see. There are MANY people in the close knit community around these three divers that are trying to sort out the whole event. Analysis of the dive are ongoing, and are quite open. I did not meet any secrecy, simply the desire that the details be clear and correct before publicly discussed. The media made such a mess in the beginning that the family asked for privacy and accuracy. They truly just wish to deal with their grief at this moment.

Be patient. The truth is working its way out of this mess.

I guess in the spirit of not keeping anything secret, we can expect to see some of the factual findings of the investigation, such as the dive profiles recorded on either of the two divers' computers/bottom timers? That information is really just factual information that would go a long way to illustrate what actually transpired - there would be no reason hold that sort of information back.


Nope, take a look at the current OUC report..Its pretty much a waste of bandwidth...Also, how can we ensure this never happens again? I am pretty confident that the true story will NEVER come out..Ever heard the saying, C Y A
Cover your ass...

I guess time will tell if Jay is right on this or not.

[divin'gal]

I guess in the spirit of not keeping anything secret, we can expect to see some of the factual findings of the investigation, such as the dive profiles recorded on either of the two divers' computers/bottom timers? That information is really just factual information that would go a long way to illustrate what actually transpired - there would be no reason hold that sort of information back.

I am with you on that one. I do hope as well that this information is correctly passed on to the rest of us.

[Stoo]

His name was used on the morning news this morning, where he was described as an "expert technical diver"...

[Cruisin Home]

The Diver was at 130 feet on the sunken crane called, " The Birmingham" it was a dive operation by Eric Cooper, of Aquaholics. They were using full scuba equipment.
I know this becaus I was on the scene and witnessed the diver get brought to shore with full equipment and i heard the radio call announcing their position.



What equip was he wearing? can u provide more detail? twins, single, wings, pony, stage ?

[Stoo]

What equip was he wearing? can u provide more detail? twins, single, wings, pony, stage ?

The details of this are all pretty vague. I know "of" all three involved and believe that they are capable divers. One of them runs a small charter business from his RIB, but it seems that this was just a dive with friends...

There is an ongoing investigation, but so far, very little detail has been forthcoming. Today was the first public mention of the victims name that I have seen, as it had been withheld at the request of his family.

[Country Diver]

He was not an expert technical diver....nor a technical diver. He was an advanced open water diver. Things like this are going to ruin the diving industry and screw with people who dive safely.

[Dhboner]

He was not an expert technical diver....nor a technical diver. He was an advanced open water diver. Things like this are going to ruin the diving industry and screw with people who dive safely.

Until we know what happened your comments are a little extreme. We don't know yet if the issue was training/experience related, gear related or health/fitness related.

Until that information is known we can't assume that his certification level played any role in this tragedy.

Bob (Toronto)

[DCBC]

The details of this are all pretty vague. I know "of" all three involved and believe that they are capable divers. One of them runs a small charter business from his RIB, but it seems that this was just a dive with friends...

There is an ongoing investigation, but so far, very little detail has been forthcoming. Today was the first public mention of the victims name that I have seen, as it had been withheld at the request of his family.

Eric Cooper runs Aquaholics and is a competent PADI Instructor, technical diver and CCR Pilot. He seems to be pretty switched on and has worked with Mike Fletcher on the Sea Hunter television series (and is a member of this Board).

Accidents like this remind us that diving can be dangerous. Accidents happen despite our best made plans and preparation. Until a detailed report is released, I'm not going to speculate. Suffice it to say that my prayers go out to the family. It's indeed fortunate that there were not more people killed.

[Crush]

He was not an expert technical diver....nor a technical diver. He was an advanced open water diver. Things like this are going to ruin the diving industry and screw with people who dive safely.

From the Fatalities section of DAN's Annual Diving Report, 2007 ed., based on 2005 data:


Seventy-one of the victims were known to be certified but information on the certification level was missing in half of the cases. The half with information included one student, nine with open water certification, 13 with an advanced or specialty certification and 22 with higher certification.

It seems as though highly-certified technical divers are doing a better job at dying while diving than are divers with only basic certifications. Unless the diver is obviously exceeding depth limits or entering environments for which s/he is not trained, you can't blame the death on a cert level at this time. That being said, I am in favour of everyone training at least until rescue diver.

[Country Diver]

Not extreme at all. Just correcting that he was not a technical diver. I know the diver in question.

My comment about the diving safely...this is a remark towards the industry as a whole if the truth doesn't come out. That's all. I'm sure if the general public was involved, that they would ban diving for being unsafe...meanwhile it is safe.

[Dhboner]

Not extreme at all. Just correcting that he was not a technical diver. I know the diver in question.

My comment about the diving safely...this is a remark towards the industry as a whole if the truth doesn't come out. That's all. I'm sure if the general public was involved, that they would ban diving for being unsafe...meanwhile it is safe.

Point taken!

Cheers.

Bob

[cmalinowski]

From the Fatalities section of DAN's Annual Diving Report, 2007 ed., based on 2005 data:


Seventy-one of the victims were known to be certified but information on the certification level was missing in half of the cases. The half with information included one student, nine with open water certification, 13 with an advanced or specialty certification and 22 with higher certification.

It seems as though highly-certified technical divers are doing a better job at dying while diving than are divers with only basic certifications. Unless the diver is obviously exceeding depth limits or entering environments for which s/he is not trained, you can't blame the death on a cert level at this time. That being said, I am in favour of everyone training at least until rescue diver.

It depends on what the definition of "higher certification" is by DAN. You assume it's technical training which is probably not the case. Many people feel that DM's and instructors (even open water instructors) are more qualified than divers who have taken technical training. My guess is that many/most of those "22 with higher certifications" were DM's and instructors diving outside their training level.

Chris

[divergirl1975]

Hello Ayisha,

I just wanted to let you know that I have sent your concerns to Raimund and Scott.

Within the 72 hours that the OUC has to put out their incident report, this was all of the information that we had from the two divers who were involved.

As more verified information becomes available we will add it to our report.

Brooke

[smoritz0370]

My comment about the diving safely...this is a remark towards the industry as a whole if the truth doesn't come out. That's all. I'm sure if the general public was involved, that they would ban diving for being unsafe...meanwhile it is safe.

Meh, that seems awfully sensationalist to me. Lots of people have died diving all over the place. Are there places that have banned diving? Why is this different? Far fewer people die diving than many other activities. Heck, in most places you don't need any sort of license/ certification to dive at all.

[Country Diver]

Meh, that seems awfully sensationalist to me. Lots of people have died diving all over the place. Are there places that have banned diving? Why is this different? Far fewer people die diving than many other activities. Heck, in most places you don't need any sort of license/ certification to dive at all.


This is in reference to what the public usually does when something happens. They give outcries, then policing occurs, and the people who know what is actually going on have to jump through hoops. Its not in reference to an outright ban for diving...more like restrictions being put in place.

[NorthernPike]

How about a national SCUBA tank registry? Then the nanny state can keep track of us all and protect us from ourselves. Should be easily done for, say, 2 or 3 Billion Dollars.

[jjones9527]

This is in reference to what the public usually does when something happens. They give outcries, then policing occurs, and the people who know what is actually going on have to jump through hoops. Its not in reference to an outright ban for diving...more like restrictions being put in place.

Yep, just like what Quebec did. Fortunately they're not very good at enforcing it.

[smoritz0370]

Yep, just like what Quebec did. Fortunately they're not very good at enforcing it.

I would say it is the exception to the rule. France has something similar in place and if I had to take my guesses Quebec has it because of that, once again showing english Canada that they are a distinct and separate society.

I don't subscribe to that paranoia.

[AcePilot]

I would say it is the exception to the rule. France has something similar in place and if I had to take my guesses Quebec has it because of that, once again showing english Canada that they are a distinct and separate society.

I don't subscribe to that paranoia.
They do want to be different and pretending to be “safer” then the other.
For example in skydiving they enforce AAD (Automatic Activation Device which opens reserve below certain altitude if skydiver falling too fast) but…
1. I was witnessing jumping through the fat layer of clouds – danger of jumpers collision and possibility of missing the landing area.
2. Nobody cared/checked what my experience is while I’m jumping high performance parachute – people get killed flying them.
So much for extreme safety…

My point is: each end every one must know their limits and if you are not sure – get educated, trained, or just ask…
No enforcement will make you safer – it inside your head – called brain what will.

[DCBC]

I would say it is the exception to the rule.

Historically I would have to agree, but times change. The EU is refining legislation for diver certification. In Quebec it came about after several Coroner's inquests and a Provincial Court Judge (in a civil case) ruled that the particular diver training standards of diver's killed were insufficient.

I wouldn't be so confident as to think that anyone can predict what government will do in the future. I think that I understand women more than I do government and that's really saying something. LOL

[Belmont]

I would say it is the exception to the rule. France has something similar in place and if I had to take my guesses Quebec has it because of that, once again showing english Canada that they are a distinct and separate society.

I don't subscribe to that paranoia.

Paranoia possibly but it all started here in Quebec after a rash of deaths in the OW group. It was determined that many of them died after having been certified in the south while on vacation.

Not familiar with our diving environment, cold, low visibility, thick insulation and the resulting heavy weights, those divers encountered situations they could not cope with.

The regulation says that to be able to dive in Quebec one has to receive his training in our local environment. It has not been enforced very much, information was mostly given. It sensitized divers to the problem and I am certain it has prevented a few deaths.

Our intentions are not to show English Canada that we are different, this should be evident and not in need of confirmation. Bringing this point here illustrates the absence, among many of English speaking neighbors, of knowledge in the differences between our two cultures.

Many have not swallowed the affirmation of our distinct identity that we have been experiencing for the past 40 years. An attitude of openness on both sides will assure future harmony. This petty comment has no place here.:shakehead:

[Crush]

Paranoia possibly but it all started here in Quebec after a rash of deaths in the OW group. It was determined that many of them died after having been certified in the south while on vacation.

Not familiar with our diving environment, cold, low visibility, thick insulation and the resulting heavy weights, those divers encountered situations they could not cope with.

Those are excellent points, Belmont. Neal Pollock from Divers Alert Network (DAN) made an exemplary contribution on the perils of cold water diving here: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/4882051-post25.html . Divers who were certified to dive in warm areas need to re-train to some degree for cold-water diving.


The regulation says that to be able to dive in Quebec one has to receive his training in our local environment. It has not been enforced very much, information was mostly given. It sensitized divers to the problem and I am certain it has prevented a few deaths.

:clapping:


Our intentions are not to show English Canada that we are different, this should be evident and not in need of confirmation. Bringing this point here illustrates the absence, among many of English speaking neighbors, of knowledge in the differences between our two cultures.

Many have not swallowed the affirmation of our distinct identity that we have been experiencing for the past 40 years. An attitude of openness on both sides will assure future harmony. This petty comment has no place here.:shakehead:

I agree with you. I cringe when fellow Canadians make such divisive comments in a public forum such as this. We should open up a "French Canadians Suck/English Canadians Suck" private forum to air our frustrations in private.

[phaust]

agree with Belmont on all points

just FYI, in quebec city we got 3 dives shop, each of them ask for the quebec qualification card before filling your tank if they do not know you ( see them asking others)

so it's still useful (no air no dive)

[AcePilot]

in quebec city we got 3 dives shop, each of them ask for the quebec qualification card before filling your tank

Quebec qualification card… not Canadian…
So Ontario and specifically Tobermory certification won’t fly???
Such a fake “Safety”!

[Crush]

Quebec qualification card… not Canadian…
So Ontario and specifically Tobermory certification won’t fly???
Such a fake “Safety”!

Dude, as a English Canadian living in Alberta, trust me when I tell you that you are embarrassing yourself and your countrymen. Don't like the rules? Don't dive in Quebec. Done.

[phaust]

AcePilot: i don't know Tobermory water temp, but in quebec, i didnt find anything warmner than 45F. and dive often in 32-34F temp.

last dive in ontario (brockville) temp was like 75F.. it's make a big difference.

anyway it's always depend what insulation you have.. drysuit, wet, etc etc. i don't think the quebec certification is GREAT, but sure it's saved live. and since they have like 1 full time employe and no databases or anything expect a papercard.. it's really low cost.

it's hard for a diveshop to know the experience of a diver, but im sure if you don't have a the card, and arguments and talk with the shop personnal you will be able to have your point and have your tank fill.

a few accident have made papers and was saying that was the diveshop fault, because they didnt ask for cards or certifications..

so now shop are backing their ass. and with a card like that it's easy.

[smoritz0370]

Bringing this point here illustrates the absence, among many of English speaking neighbors, of knowledge in the differences between our two cultures.

Many have not swallowed the affirmation of our distinct identity that we have been experiencing for the past 40 years. An attitude of openness on both sides will assure future harmony. This petty comment has no place here.:shakehead:

Actually my family are allophones, ie they were immigrants to Quebec who spoke neither french nor english. They have all since left, either back to the country of origin or to other parts of Canada in part due to the intolerance inside Quebec for different cultures. I see however you have no issue taring "many" english speaking Canadians based on my comments alone. You are right I probably should have kept it to myself however, and for that I apologize.

The reference to paranoia was directed at the fact that I believe that every time there is an accident there is very low risk of incurring some form of policing for SCUBA diving and the constant histrionics every time to walk on egg shells for fear of this policing gets tiresome and I believe is mostly unfounded.

[AcePilot]

AcePilot: i don't know Tobermory water temp, but in quebec, i didnt find anything warmner than 45F. and dive often in 32-34F temp.


FYI: 32F = 0 C Freezing temperature i.e. impossible! Your temperature sensor under reads by 8 to 10 F.
Even in winter under the ice temperature never drops below 1C = 33.8 F
And as you go deeper you get 4C = 39.2F (the water is the heaviest at this temperature so you can not get any colder than 39.2F at depth. (unless you are in the ocean)

Tobermory is cold unless you diving shallow wrecks.
For example last weekend:
Wreck of Forest City: thermocline at 70 feet – 42F = 5.5C below thermocline
Wreck of Arabia: thermocline at 45 feet – 44F = 6.6C below thermocline
At the same time
Wreck of Sweepstakes: shorty temperature Sergey Zinchenko&#039;s Photos | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=7150463&l=8e48452c18&id=558875658)

IMHO Experience (logged recent dives) must be used to determine if diver is qualified to dive a particular dive site.
South qualified diver has no problem diving Tobermory Sweepstakes BUT same diver MUST NOT dive Arabia or Forest City.

[DCBC]

The PQ certification has nothing to do with cold water. The water temp in Atlantic Canada is a hell of a lot colder. It has everything to do with accountability. If government can't depend on the industry to establish reasonable training standards, they have no choice but to step in. This isn't new, it was the reason for the establishment of the OUC and the other Provincial Councils in the beginning....

[NorthernPike]

FYI: 32F = 0 C Freezing temperature i.e. impossible!

Temp.s below 32 are not uncommon in salt water, N. and E. coasts.

[AcePilot]

Temp.s below 32 are not uncommon in salt water, N. and E. coasts.

Pike is a fresh water fish ;-)
I did say "Unless you are in the ocean" meaning salt water

[NorthernPike]

Oops sorry, bud. Missed that part. I read too fast. :D

[Graeme Tolton]

This sure has gotten off track... If you want to discuss english/french issues, this should be split... and quite frankly, I dont believe that the old english/french thing should be discussed on this board at all, ESPECIALLY when it has absolutely nothing to do with this tragic event.

[Cruisin Home]

I love New hampshire, motto = live free or die. It is our right to do the things we do knowing that at anytime we can die from it. I am so against more restrictions, but it is why we need to control our own society and help promote good educational diving within our ranks. It is why this forum is so important to analyze, criticize etc the accidents that happen so we maybe can make our sport better. That attitude has really helped NASCAR without losing the excitement factor.

[divereh]

It is always very tragic when these things happen. People must learn they can only dive to their training and expeirence. Anyone with a pocket full of money can buy course after course after course, what people need to realize you must also take time to gain some personal expeirence. Charter operators need to tighten up and check certifications and only people to dive to their certifications. People get too complacent with diving, the gear is practically fail-safe, the computers are all you really need to find out safe deco schedules, they are very advanced as we know. I see these people with the "who needs a course" to know how to do hard core dives, it's hopefully not a trend of deep diving to come. The most important thing these courses teach is emergency preparedness, that's what lacks in these hot dog divers.

[Graeme Tolton]

It is always very tragic when these things happen. People must learn they can only dive to their training and expeirence. Anyone with a pocket full of money can buy course after course after course, what people need to realize you must also take time to gain some personal expeirence. Charter operators need to tighten up and check certifications and only people to dive to their certifications. People get too complacent with diving, the gear is practically fail-safe, the computers are all you really need to find out safe deco schedules, they are very advanced as we know. I see these people with the "who needs a course" to know how to do hard core dives, it's hopefully not a trend of deep diving to come. The most important thing these courses teach is emergency preparedness, that's what lacks in these hot dog divers.

Sometimes a course will give you more confidence than you should be carrying around with you. I don't believe in card collecting, but gaining experience and confidence slowly. Depending on what kind of diving you want to do, there are some courses that are really good to have done, but nothing beats just getting out and diving... regularly. In ontario, depending where you live, your thermal limits, that can be hard to do. However, if you want to gain experience, you must put forth the effort.

[AcePilot]

Sometimes a course will give you more confidence than you should be carrying around with you.
...nothing beats just getting out and diving... regularly.

In aviation pilot has to be Current to be able to fly.
To be Current you have to fly regularly an not just fly but perform particular exercises and take some training.

I think similar kind of Currency has to be introduced in diving.
If you did not dive for some period of time you have to dive with Instructor, take training or refresher.
If you did not dive in cold waters - don't go deep and cold at the same time.
Get familiar with the environment on easier dives.

Education is a great tool but dry theory is not much of a help without proper practice.
Training programs must promote practice in safer environment, practice of the emergency situations regularly, being prepared for what ifs...

Every skydiver practice the procedure of opening reserve parachute before every skydive. So every diver should at least mentally prepare for the emergency situation before every dive, be able to recognize emergency and have the action plan ready and fresh.

[Graeme Tolton]

In aviation pilot has to be Current to be able to fly.
To be Current you have to fly regularly an not just fly but perform particular exercises and take some training.

I think similar kind of Currency has to be introduced in diving.
If you did not dive for some period of time you have to dive with Instructor, take training or refresher.
If you did not dive in cold waters - don't go deep and cold at the same time.
Get familiar with the environment on easier dives.

Education is a great tool but dry theory is not much of a help without proper practice.
Training programs must promote practice in safer environment, practice of the emergency situations regularly, being prepared for what ifs...

Every skydiver practice the procedure of opening reserve parachute before every skydive. So every diver should at least mentally prepare for the emergency situation before every dive, be able to recognize emergency and have the action plan ready and fresh.

Who is going to enforce this for diving? Would it be the dive shops at dive destinations who rely on fills and charters as their biggest source of income? If they started turning divers away who hadn't dove in a year, they would be out of business pretty quick. Especially up here in Canada, where most divers dive from June to September. It is not unusual for a diver to dive a weekend or two every summer and take the rest of the year off.

As of right now in most of the world, SCUBA is a self regulating business. This can lead to some silly rules, which are a topic of discussion for another forum. If we were to let other authorities take over regulating dive business, that could lead to the ultimate demise of our sport by making it increasingly harder to afford and keep up with.

[AcePilot]

Even though this thread is for the accidents and incidents I will post this information here.
More people reads this thread than “In memory” if one even exist.
And if it does please copy this information there.

The family of our dive buddy will need financial support in raising three young children.
Please make a donation for them on PayPal at 'TMF.Fund@gmail.com' or through TD Canada Trust bank account # 2492 6352075. Check or cash can be deposited into this account for the family BUT it must go under the name Eric Cooper or Carlos Fonseca because the family wants to remain anonymous.
The family will get all of any donations.
Even the small donations add up!
Huge thanks.

[NetDoc]

Thanks for posting this information.

[cruiser]

Even though this thread is for the accidents and incidents I will post this information here.
More people reads this thread than “In memory” if one even exist.
And if it does please copy this information there.

The family of our dive buddy will need financial support in raising three young children.
Please make a donation for them on PayPal at 'TMF.Fund@gmail.com' or through TD Canada Trust bank account # 2492 6352075. Check or cash can be deposited into this account for the family BUT it must go under the name Eric Cooper or Carlos Fonseca because the family wants to remain anonymous.
The family will get all of any donations.
Even the small donations add up!
Huge thanks.

Wow, I've got a real problem with donating to a nameless entity.

[AcePilot]

Wow, I've got a real problem with donating to a nameless entity.

2 names are listed for the bank account. These people are real people, real divers and close friends of the family.
PayPal account was received from very reputable source too and was set up for this particular donations only.

[Dhboner]

Wow, I've got a real problem with donating to a nameless entity.

The people behind the "fund" are decent people and well known in the Ontario diving community. At the time that e-mail/post was sent the family had not yet granted permisison to use the diver's name.

[cruiser]

2 names are listed for the bank account. These people are real people, real divers and close friends of the family.


My donation is not intended for Eric Cooper or Carlos Fonseca, so I'm still donating to a nameless entity.

[riftvalley84]

You can't keep much off the internet. A quick search such as, "oakville scuba diver identified" will identify the victim.

What I don't understand is why those who were on the dive don't give more information such as dive site, depth, length of dive before incident, etc. Many of us DO read this thread so we can learn from accidents. If I die while diving, I hope those who dive with me will give a detailed report and respond to any questions to the best of their knowledge. It doesn't matter whether my accident was something I did wrong, equipment failure or a health issue, I don't want anything glossed over or covered up.

[jjones9527]

What I don't understand is why those who were on the dive don't give more information such as dive site, depth, length of dive before incident, etc.

Ask Eric or Carlos when you send them your donation...

[headviking]

You can't keep much off the internet. A quick search such as, "oakville scuba diver identified" will identify the victim.

What I don't understand is why those who were on the dive don't give more information such as dive site, depth, length of dive before incident, etc. Many of us DO read this thread so we can learn from accidents. If I die while diving, I hope those who dive with me will give a detailed report and respond to any questions to the best of their knowledge. It doesn't matter whether my accident was something I did wrong, equipment failure or a health issue, I don't want anything glossed over or covered up.

here here.

[cruiser]

You can't keep much off the internet. A quick search such as, "oakville scuba diver identified" will identify the victim.

Thanks, riftvalley84.


What I don't understand is why those who were on the dive don't give more information such as dive site, depth, length of dive before incident, etc. Many of us DO read this thread so we can learn from accidents. If I die while diving, I hope those who dive with me will give a detailed report and respond to any questions to the best of their knowledge. It doesn't matter whether my accident was something I did wrong, equipment failure or a health issue, I don't want anything glossed over or covered up.

If the victim has been identified in the press and therefore the internet, then who is the family trying to keep the victim's identity from? There's something not right about this whole thing. I'm just saying.....

[DandyDon]

Thanks, riftvalley84.



If the victim has been identified in the press and therefore the internet, then who is the family trying to keep the victim's identity from? There's something not right about this whole thing. I'm just saying.....
I'm sure they are under a lot of stress right now.

[AcePilot]

If the victim has been identified in the press and therefore the internet, then who is the family trying to keep the victim's identity from? There's something not right about this whole thing. I'm just saying.....
Family asked not to disclose victim's name - we respect their wish.
Are they asking for too much???
Press never respects anyone - that is all!

People who willing to help - just do it quietly without making loud buzz.
These who don't - looking for the reason why not to help.

[Stoo]

The police released the victim's name today, presumably with the family's blessing, although I don't know that for certain.

Those of us that live in the area who know the victim and the others involved, all respected the family's wish to keep his name private.

I made a lengthy post on OntarioDiver.com about the "demands" that some have made for more information and their repeated assertion that there was some grand conspiracy to keep the details of this under wraps.

The reality is that the police have a simple mandate: investigate the accident to determine if a crime was committed. They are under no "obligation" to release any information to anyone, and IMHO, none if this is anyone's business but the family's.

The equipment has been sent to DCIEM and in time we will learn if there was a problem with it. Similarly, in time, we might learn if the victim had any health problem that might have influenced these events. My guess is that the equipment is fine, that he was healthy and as is almost always the case, this will boil down to "stuff" happens.

What is probably true is that the victim was likely only certified as AOW, and, more importantly, was lacking in current, relevant dive experience for a 145' dive, in cold water, with perhaps a fairly strong current. As I said, "stuff" happens...

The other two divers will likely comment in time as well. I don't know if they are members of SB or not, but they are on Ontario Diver. I think it's fair to assume that they are battling their own private demons at the moment and coping as best as they can. This was their friend and dive buddy. How about we cut them a little slack?

So what will we learn? Dive well, dive often, train, work your way up. Same as we always learn.

Safe diving friends!

[DCBC]

The other two divers will likely comment in time as well. I don't know if they are members of SB or not, but they are on Ontario Diver.

Thanks for the update Stoo. Eric is a member here and I suspect that when things calm down some he may comment on the events.

Wayne

[Stoo]

Eric is a member here and I suspect that when things calm down some he may comment on the events.

Hopefully he will. It is a very sad situation... It seems worse when it happens in your own backyard somehow too...

[AcePilot]

Memorial Fund for Dive Victim's Family published by OUC
Ontario Underwater Council (http://www.underwatercouncil.com/?action=cms&cmspage=tmf_fund)

p.s. I spoke to Raimund yesterday and they working hard on getting as much truthful information as possible. OUC report will be updated as soon as they can.

[Stoo]

Dan's Dive Shop in St. Catherines is holding a fund-raising BBQ this Sunday (19 September · 10:00 - 14:00) at Welland Scuba Park, off Lincoln St. Welland, ON

I presume you can get more information here: info@dansdiveshop.ca

[Jay Roy]

Good thing I'm not holding my breath for that updated OUC report..

[NorthernPike]

In the absence of facts, rumours abound.

[pearldive]

The fund raiser for our friend is tomorrow at the Welland Scuba park. More info can be found at the Dans Dive Shop facebook page or the store web site.

If seems that most of the comments on this thread are related to experience/commercial operation?/ and our southern friends concerns about water depth/temp/vis.
All those concerns are valid but I doubt there will be any more info coming from the local media or authorities. They have stated drowning as a cause.There will not be any other info released. The dive gear results will not be made public...to anyone. If Eric and the other diver is smart, or has been told by the Police, they will not talk to anyone. A death in an Ontario Commercial passenger operation will likely have an inquest. Any info released now could tarnish the real info from being given then. I would suggest to all of you to perhaps be patient and if and when an inquest is called you will find out what happened. If there is a lawsuit towards the commercial operation it must be filed before Sept 1st 2012

[divebutt]

It is always very tragic when these things happen. People must learn they can only dive to their training and expeirence. Anyone with a pocket full of money can buy course after course after course, what people need to realize you must also take time to gain some personal expeirence. Charter operators need to tighten up and check certifications and only people to dive to their certifications. People get too complacent with diving, the gear is practically fail-safe, the computers are all you really need to find out safe deco schedules, they are very advanced as we know. I see these people with the "who needs a course" to know how to do hard core dives, it's hopefully not a trend of deep diving to come. The most important thing these courses teach is emergency preparedness, that's what lacks in these hot dog divers.

You hit the nail on the head. There is absolutely no substitution for experience.

Second to that, people need to think more about what they're getting themselves into and if it's really for them. Some people are fine with recreational limits and technical limits, while others may realize that technical diving is not for them. No instructor wants to fail a student, but from time to time it may be a necessary thing to do to protect the instructors liability and the students life. No instructor is going to hold back a competent diver. If you fail, there's a reason why. Time to get more experience and try again later.

Just my 2 cents.

[adiverswife]

You hit the nail on the head. There is absolutely no substitution for experience.

Second to that, people need to think more about what they're getting themselves into and if it's really for them. Some people are fine with recreational limits and technical limits, while others may realize that technical diving is not for them. No instructor wants to fail a student, but from time to time it may be a necessary thing to do to protect the instructors liability and the students life. No instructor is going to hold back a competent diver. If you fail, there's a reason why. Time to get more experience and try again later.

Just my 2 cents.
Divebutt and divereh you have no clue what you are talking about he is not here to defend himself please do not spread lies!!!! you did not know him or how hard he worked to get where he was, this was not a first dive it was one of many of this depth he did not pay to get to where he was it was practice and hard work.(trust me there was no MONEY)that statement is as low as you!!!you may know many that have and they may be your friends.Do not post what you do not know his family has lost a great man,husband father,brother, son uncle.People get hurt when lies are spread they get around then a child is in tears because their Father was not respected by inconsiderate heartless ass's keep your 2 cents for all that it is worth to yourself and respect the Diver and his family.He was experienced and was where he should have been it was tragic what happen. All of you that are saying you are looking for answers to save another is a lie. Keep your lies to yourself and your mouth shut without facts!!!!!!!!!

[adiverswife]

Country Diver Just wondering what gives you the expertise to quote it was an avoidable tragedy
would like to hear your facts that could save another

[adiverswife]

He was not an expert technical diver....nor a technical diver. He was an advanced open water diver. Things like this are going to ruin the diving industry and screw with people who dive safely.
Country Diver just to help you out on your facts as you seem to like to make them up he was an experienced diver he knew what he was doing I ask you please stop spreading what you do not know. If all anyone wants is answers to help why is so many doubting the diver before facts are out i would truly like to know as I am sure many do.so what would be said if all the facts were posted on how qualified he was and it was an equipment error how fast would apologizes be spread. I say not many.... sad.......

[adiverswife]

Very sad news to hear,

If the person who passed away is the fellow that I knew (no names have been released), very tragic. He was not any where near prepared for a dive to 145' with any sort of DECO obligation. Very poor judgment. Hopefully all the facts will somewhat come out and clear things up.

You do not know that so please do not spread it

[adiverswife]

here here.



Nothing is being hidden or glossed over the family has been hurt enough and no matter how much info is going to come out someone is negative. The diver was a DAD we need to think of what is said for the children how will what happen to him help you or others ? just would like to know as I read there are so many untrue facts out there do they realy need more to pick apart??

[Stoo]

Hi adiverswife, and welcome to ScubaBoard. It's unfortunate that this accident is the reason for your introduction to this forum.

I truly hope that you are not "T's" wife. If so, my heartfelt condolences, but having said that, you should leave this thread and never come back. As you have already read, there is no shortage of "experts" here and it can make for some unpleasant reading for those close to the deceased.

If you are a friend of his (and it sounds like that is more likely the case) then take what you read here with a grain of salt. No matter the topic, there are always people here that say completely ridiculous things. When the topic is something as unfortunate as this one, these thoughtless posts can be painful to those directly involved.

In time, everyone hopes that something good will come from these "enquiries", but in my experience, that isn't usually the case. These are accidents, and while sometimes there are extenuating circumstances that contributed to the cause, most of the time, the cause is just plain bad luck.

Regardless of your relationship to "T" please take some people's comments here with a grain of salt. No one intends to hurt those close to him, but I think that they they sometimes forget that their comments might be read by people directly involved.

[cruiser]

adiverswife--

Yes, we are woefully short on facts. Would you care to provide any?

[adiverswife]

The diver in question is my cousin. This was their second dive of the day and everything was fine. Contrary to reports. He was found on the bottom unresponsive, and pulled up from there. No one knows right now what went wrong but obviously something did. He was more than experienced to handle these dives and his gear was more than OK so speculation needs to stop and wait for the results of the police investigation. I am tired of reading peoples opinions about what the news has said, the news has been 100% wrong so far. I am at a loss myself for what went wrong, but until all info is available opinions only lead to more misinformation, which doesn't help anyone. I will post again when we find out more info.

Thanks this means a lot to me!!!!! :)

[DandyDon]

We seldom get the full story, but rather try to learn from what-if possibilities. Some personal speculations may get out of line at times, true.

[adiverswife]

adiverswife--

Yes, we are woefully short on facts. Would you care to provide any?




No!!! many of you have been taking it into your hands and feel you knew him and what he was capable of. Many untrue facts are out there and the news did not know him either or what he could do. so respect for him is what I am asking for and for everyone to stop spreading lies that he was not ready for that dive he was more then ready!!!

[adiverswife]

Knowing the people involved..I`m pretty sure this is all the info we`re going to get.

why do you feel you need to know more-----just asking

[adiverswife]

it should rule out health related (heart attack, stroke, barotrauma from overexpansion etc).
this would be autopsy related information. Drowning secondary to inhalation of fluid.

There would be less speculation if those involved would expose some of the questions that have been brought up such as level of certification, number of dives, equipment choices etc.
this would all be good information. I think someone else mentioned the secretive nature of the event.

interesting though but unsatisfying due to lack of information.

Why does everyone feel it is a secret if the equipment was the trouble do you think the divers that were involved that day would know that without a report. why does the diver that is no longer among us need to have a report for all of you level of certification, number of dives, equipment choices etc. he has a wife 3 children that he loved very much!!! do you think he would risk all this on a weekend training as Mr Shannon has reported some divers do he had been diving since 2004 6 yrs do you need more he spent many hours to be the best and what he loved.

[adiverswife]

He was not an expert technical diver....nor a technical diver. He was an advanced open water diver. Things like this are going to ruin the diving industry and screw with people who dive safely.

Yes he was a technical diver------who are you to say he was not and spread lies !!!

[adiverswife]

Very sad news to hear,

If the person who passed away is the fellow that I knew (no names have been released), very tragic. He was not any where near prepared for a dive to 145' with any sort of DECO obligation. Very poor judgment. Hopefully all the facts will somewhat come out and clear things up.

not true

[cbm32]

adiverswife.....

You have told us a lot about what isnt true without providing what is true and how you know it is true. You say he was a tech diver. Ok, which agency did he get his cert from? You say he was very experienced and prepared. Ok, how many dives had he been on?

I am NOT trying to be offensive or abrasive in any way. But, it simply isnt good enough (in my opinion) to try to shout down everyone without providing some kind of evidence that you have some idea of what you are talking about.

I for one am a pretty inexperienced diver. As such, the speculation of how this MIGHT have happened provided me a LOT of information regarding scenarios that can be a problem and how they can come about. This in turn makes me very aware of situations I need to question, or stay away from, and training I might want to consider getting. In that way the speculation can be very valuable in terms of preventing future accidents even if it is not what actually happened in this case.


Please accept my post in the spirit in which it was made and if you do in fact have information perhaps you could provide it to us.

If my post offends you in any way I apologize in advance.

[adiverswife]

Then why are they saying this was not a paid charter, when I have the Aquaholic email from the day before listing Wed as a day of paid charters? Also, most reports say the diver was found on the bottom with no mask and no vitals. OUC report says he has problems on the ascent?

Did you ever think that no one booked for that day and 3 friends decided to go!!!!! or would you rather stir something up! :shakehead:

[Jay Roy]

Yes he was a technical diver------who are you to say he was not and spread lies !!!


And your definition of a tech diver is?

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

adiverswife,
First let me say that I am sorry that you have lost someone dear to you. No words can take away the pain. If I had such words to speak and make things better, I would not withhold them from you.

Threads like this serve to educate divers and make them think through the what if's. How to recognize mistakes and then not make them yourself. I owe my life to a thread very much like this 4 years ago.

You see I was on a dive and a chain of events began to happen quickly. It was a chain of events that had actually been discussed a few days before my dive and it was fresh in my mind. I realized I was making mistakes almost like someone that had lost their life but a few days before. And I remembered the speculation and the solutions offered to solve those mistakes.

We are not here to disparage your dear loved one. Honestly we are here to learn. Our thoughts and opinions are offered to discuss real and tragic situations and how they might be avoided or overcome if avoidance is not possible.

Truly I am sorry for your loss. I lost my own brother who was 46 just 6 months ago this week. Sadly choices he made lead to his untimely death. His children are at a loss and struggling.

The diver discussed in this thread, I understand his friends and most especially his wife and children will struggle, not just now but for years and years to come. He can never be replaced. NEVER! Perhaps, though he can keep someone else from being removed from the lives of those that love them.

I owe a great debt to the man who lost his life and the incident was discussed here. I owe a great debt to those who participated in that discussion. It was because of that thread that I lived to dive another day. I am not alone. Many others have learned too. Experience is the best teacher, but it is also the most costly. We do well when we try to learn from both the success and mistakes of others.

I am sorry for you loss.

[adiverswife]

It is always very tragic when these things happen. People must learn they can only dive to their training and expeirence. Anyone with a pocket full of money can buy course after course after course, what people need to realize you must also take time to gain some personal expeirence. Charter operators need to tighten up and check certifications and only people to dive to their certifications. People get too complacent with diving, the gear is practically fail-safe, the computers are all you really need to find out safe deco schedules, they are very advanced as we know. I see these people with the "who needs a course" to know how to do hard core dives, it's hopefully not a trend of deep diving to come. The most important thing these courses teach is emergency preparedness, that's what lacks in these hot dog divers.
are you trying to say that the diver that has passed bought a course How can you say such a thing about someone you do not know or have seen what he has done. what is wrong with you.

[Jay Roy]

why do you feel you need to know more-----just asking

Because a fatality in our sport is a big deal..
And I'm curious as well..I have several dives on that wreck, and would like to know what happened..
No one blames the deceased..As I said on another forum, I point the finger squarely at the the person who owns the boat..He knows damn well someone with out deco training doesn't belong there..But that's the hot dog mentality of folks in that region trained by MM

[adiverswife]

adiverswife,
First let me say that I am sorry that you have lost someone dear to you. No words can take away the pain. If I had such words to speak and make things better, I would not withhold them from you.

Threads like this serve to educate divers and make them think through the what if's. How to recognize mistakes and then not make them yourself. I owe my life to a thread very much like this 4 years ago.

You see I was on a dive and a chain of events began to happen quickly. It was a chain of events that had actually been discussed a few days before my dive and it was fresh in my mind. I realized I was making mistakes almost like someone that had lost their life but a few days before. And I remembered the speculation and the solutions offered to solve those mistakes.

We are not here to disparage your dear loved one. Honestly we are here to learn. Our thoughts and opinions are offered to discuss real and tragic situations and how they might be avoided or overcome if avoidance is not possible.

Truly I am sorry for your loss. I lost my own brother who was 46 just 6 months ago this week. Sadly choices he made lead to his untimely death. His children are at a loss and struggling.

The diver discussed in this thread, I understand his friends and most especially his wife and children will struggle, not just now but for years and years to come. He can never be replaced. NEVER! Perhaps, though he can keep someone else from being removed from the lives of those that love them.

I owe a great debt to the man who lost his life and the incident was discussed here. I owe a great debt to those who participated in that discussion. It was because of that thread that I lived to dive another day. I am not alone. Many others have learned too. Experience is the best teacher, but it is also the most costly. We do well when we try to learn from both the success and mistakes of others.

I am sorry for you loss.
I do understand that this site is to educate divers if something happens, what I do not understand is those that have tried to be-little his credentials. He was a great person and yes very dear to me so reading some quotes that he was not qualified or ready to be there or even one that he bought a course should not be part of the post. answers is what is wanted lies should be removed. those who knew him and dived with him were friends they do not take courses lightly and quotes like that are sad when posted if they want to post to help that that is what they should do.

[adiverswife]

And your definition of a tech diver is?
I do not dive and do not care to !!!! but knew him well . What do you know about him??

[Jay Roy]

I do understand that this site is to educate divers if something happens, what I do not understand is those that have tried to be-little his credentials. He was a great person and yes very dear to me so reading some quotes that he was not qualified or ready to be there or even one that he bought a course should not be part of the post. answers is what is wanted lies should be removed. those who knew him and dived with him were friends they do not take courses lightly and quotes like that are sad when posted if they want to post to help that that is what they should do.


Great, so if he possessed the qualifications, and took training seriously, what was the catastrophic event that lead to his demise?

[Jay Roy]

I do not dive and do not care to !!!! but knew him well . What do you know about him??


Then how can you discredit what country diver is saying?
I know he had Advanced Open Water, and an incomplete intro to tech course..Neither of which should have had him diving on the crane..But like I said, not his fault..There were people on board that knew better..

[cruiser]

Are you trying to say that the diver that has passed bought a course? How can you say such a thing about someone you do not know or have seen what he has done? What is wrong with you?

All courses cost money, none of them are free, especially tech courses. If there is a free one, I'd remember what a good friend told me, that you usually don't get what you don't pay for.

I edited your post above and added punctuation for easier reading. If I misinterpreted what you said, apologies in advance.

[adiverswife]

Because a fatality in our sport is a big deal..
And I'm curious as well..I have several dives on that wreck, and would like to know what happened..
No one blames the deceased..As I said on another forum, I point the finger squarely at the the person who owns the boat..He knows damn well someone with out deco training doesn't belong there..But that's the hot dog mentality of folks in that region trained by MM
How well again did you know him to know what he could or could not do he has been on deep dives if a fatality in your sport is a big deal keep it to that and stop putting the blame on the person that owns the boat until the facts are in.I have talked to both men that were with them many times.

[cruiser]

I do understand that this site is to educate divers if something happens. What I do not understand is those that have tried to belittle his credentials. He was a great person and yes, very dear to me, so reading some quotes that he was not qualified or ready to be there, or even one that he bought a course, should not be part of the post. Answers is what is wanted. Lies should be removed. Those who knew him and dived with him were friends. They do not take courses lightly and quotes like that are sad when posted. If they want to post to help, that that is what they should do.

While I don't doubt he was a "great" person, that does not necessarily mean he was trained for the dive he was on. And because he dived with friends doesn't mean he was in an appropriate dive situation, or dived according to his training. While we would like to have facts, all we have to go on at the moment is speculation, yours included, since you haven't provided anything further than what's already been posted.

[Jay Roy]

How well again did you know him to know what he could or could not do he has been on deep dives if a fatality in your sport is a big deal keep it to that and stop putting the blame on the person that owns the boat until the facts are in.I have talked to both men that were with them many times.

Being on deep dives, and knowing how to, and being trained to deal with failures that can happen on deep dives are two different worlds..You can do 500 dives you are not prepared for and have nothing go wrong..But every time you roll off the boat, its like Russian Roulette...Pardon my bluntness, but whatever happened on this one, did not seem to be dealt with in a successful manor..As far as waiting for the facts to be in..they never will be..if they aren't in now..they won't be. EC made an appearance on the active Ontario board looking for donations, and was not heard from after..
Also, it doesn't seem like this incident has had too much affect on the people involved..looks like its business as usual for Aquaholic..I'm pretty sure if that were me, charters would be done for the year..

[cruiser]

I do not dive and do not care to !!!! But knew him well. What do you know about him??

If you're not a diver, how are you able to ascertain his diving skills or level of training for the dive he was on? Have you taken classes, just didn't get certified?

[cruiser]

How well again did you know him to know what he could or could not do? He has been on deep dives. If a fatality in your sport is a big deal keep it to that and stop putting the blame on the person that owns the boat until the facts are in. I have talked to both men that were with them many times.

What did both men have to say? Did they reassure you that it wasn't their fault? Did they known how the diver got into trouble?

[Jay Roy]

BTW, adiverswife, I'm taking a wild guess that your the wife of the deceased..Do you think coming here and reading all this chatter is going to help the grieving process?

[adiverswife]

Great, so if he possessed the qualifications, and took training seriously, what was the catastrophic event that lead to his demise?
I do not think at this time anyone has that answer.It is an answer many would want. I am not here to stir your water. I only want those that feel the need to post untrue quotes about him to stop.I believe that all 3 knew what they were doing that day. I am not sure what went wrong or why it went they way it did. Is is extremely devastating to us that he is gone forever. It is also devastating what many are saying without facts.
I may not know about diving, but I do know about facts,and I have not seen much of that!

[Jay Roy]

I do not think at this time anyone has that answer.It is an answer many would want. I am not here to stir your water. I only want those that feel the need to post untrue quotes about him to stop.I believe that all 3 knew what they were doing that day. I am not sure what went wrong or why it went they way it did. Is is extremely devastating to us that he is gone forever. It is also devastating what many are saying without facts.
I may not know about diving, but I do know about facts,and I have not seen much of that!

The other individuals involved damn sure should know what happened..

[adiverswife]

If you're not a diver, how are you able to ascertain his diving skills or level of training for the dive he was on? Have you taken classes, just didn't get certified?
Yes I took classes tried it and did not want to continue.
He did. I came on here to read, and maybe I should not have as it is extremely upsetting.
I am trying to understand why so many are saying he was not ready. He was!

[TC]

Please keep the discussion civil.
Any further name calling will result in thread bans.

[TC]

Thread closed until further notice.

This forum is for intelligent discussion of accidents/incidents in order to learn from them and hopefully prevent similar accidents. While speculation often results due to lack of specific facts "blamestorming", name calling and general bickering is not allowed.

[TC]

Thread reopened. Again- Please keep the discussion civil.

[Jimmer]

Because a fatality in our sport is a big deal..
And I'm curious as well..I have several dives on that wreck, and would like to know what happened..
No one blames the deceased..As I said on another forum, I point the finger squarely at the the person who owns the boat..He knows damn well someone with out deco training doesn't belong there..But that's the hot dog mentality of folks in that region trained by MM

I'm not looking to get into a pissing match, and I know you have plenty of training and experience to speak from, but to blame any of this on MM's training is really hitting below the belt. I have been trained by MM (not exclusively, but most recently) and can assure you of two things.

1. MM has never in my presence, suggested anything other than diving within the limits of your training and experience.
2. I, like every other diver, regardless of who trained them, has a mind of their own, and can choose to follow their training, or not.

[ScubaSteve]

..looks like its business as usual for Aquaholic..I'm pretty sure if that were me, charters would be done for the year..

What a silly statement. So, because an accident happened while diving off a boat, that company should close down for the year? What if it had happened in June? Still close up until December? Or is it until diving season opens up again in May? An accident happened. Yes. We have no clue what happened. Yes. Why in gods name would you hold it against a charter that they tried to remain in business? You seem to have an agenda which might be clear to others but I'll have to reread the thread to see if it is still clear with all the deletions.

[Jax]

Also, it doesn't seem like this incident has had too much affect on the people involved..looks like its business as usual for Aquaholic..I'm pretty sure if that were me, charters would be done for the year..

Jay Roy, I agree with ScubaSteve . . . :shocked2:

People have jobs and lives dependent on a business. The captain, the person that runs the store, the owners, and in a lesser way the marina that keeps the boat, the fuel station that fills the boat, the tank fillers, the dive ops that charter the boat, and on and on.

Having a death on a dive boat is never an easy thing, even when autopsy provess 100% it is not your fault. But life must go on, people must get paid and bills paid, and life continues. Please do not fault the boat op per se.

[cruiser]

Jay Roy--

In today's economy, how can a dive charter close down for a year? That's a luxury most operators today simply can't afford.

[Jay Roy]

Firstly, there is no way here in Ontario, a guy with a zodiac is paying his mortgage running a weekend charter op. He is not affiliated with any shop, and trailers the boat...Also, with the exception of some of the more hard core divers, the charter season here is about May until Sept. For most of the charter ops up this way, its a second income, and a hobby.
Secondly, the boat captain was the victims friend and buddy on the dive. God forbid if I ever brought one of my friends, and dive buddies to the surface VSA, I dont think I would be jumping in the water a weekend or two later..Sorry, but thats just me.

[Ayisha]

(@Jay Roy) You seem to have an agenda which might be clear to others but I'll have to reread the thread to see if it is still clear with all the deletions.

Jay, like many others here, has been privy to details of this accident that have not been made completely public. He has been involved in the information gathering, as he has mentioned in the past. He has also been diving with the op before and has dove that wreck with him. I think his agenda is to find out the truth about that fateful dive. Correct me if I'm wrong, Jay.

Raimund, the president of the OUC (Ontario Underwater Council), called me at home a few weeks ago and assured me there will be a follow-up report on this accident and it will be much more detailed than it is now, once they sift through the info and determine what is fact. Scott, Brooke and Raimund, please let us know when you update the report, and we hope it will be soon...

Until then, there is enough leaked info that people have put together a quite plausible scenario of events leading to T's demise...

[Jay Roy]

Jay, like many others here, has been privy to details of this accident that have not been made completely public. He has been involved in the information gathering, as he has mentioned in the past. He has also been diving with the op before and has dove that wreck with him. I think his agenda is to find out the truth about that fateful dive. Correct me if I'm wrong, Jay.

Raimund, the president of the OUC (Ontario Underwater Council), called me at home a few weeks ago and assured me there will be a follow-up report on this accident and it will be much more detailed than it is now, once they sift through the info and determine what is fact. Scott, Brooke and Raimund, please let us know when you update the report, and we hope it will be soon...

Until then, there is enough leaked info that people have put together a quite plausible scenario of events leading to T's demise...

Exactly..Thanks for summing it up for me Ayisha..

[Country Diver]

Country Diver just to help you out on your facts as you seem to like to make them up he was an experienced diver he knew what he was doing I ask you please stop spreading what you do not know. If all anyone wants is answers to help why is so many doubting the diver before facts are out i would truly like to know as I am sure many do.so what would be said if all the facts were posted on how qualified he was and it was an equipment error how fast would apologizes be spread. I say not many.... sad.......


Yes he was a technical diver------who are you to say he was not and spread lies !!!

Adiverswife, I am sorry for your loss, but I do have to comment on your blasts here. Not to upset you....but......I do know what I am talking about here with regards to training, with regards to the site, and what the certification level was...which was an Advanced Open Water diver, not a technical diver. You cannot comment on a level of diving when you yourself are not certified. I knew your husband, I know the operator, and I know the site. Not making anything up, and I have stayed away from speculating with regards to gear, or anything else out of the ordinary. Those facts are not in yet.

Lake levels haven't dropped 20 ft to make this a recreational dive site.

When it comes to some of the other comments in this thread, you will find that sometimes do go off topic, and they are referring to the dive industry in general.

I do hold the certification and the knowledge to make these comments, and I will not sit back and be lashed out at over this. You are lashing out at the wrong people. I can't even begin to imagine what you are going through, and I understand that you feel the need to protect you kids, but this is all part of the procedure that all divers go through when there is an accident, especially a death. Even in the discussions that come off of the main discussion can offer some sort of lesson that can be learned.

When I said that it was avoidable...it was. Advanced Open Water divers should not be on this site. Single tank divers have been brought to this site for a "bounce" dive, which is stupid. Those that are that bring a stage bottle of whatever max nitrox mix they can get from the shop(40%), do not have the decompression background to safely perform the dive. If they are doing a trust me dive...even worse because they will not know if an error is made. Mixed teams....Rebreather diver with a bail out, of unknown gas to the other diver, and an open circuit diver....when there is an issue, do both divers know the plan?, When both divers are on open circuit, there are procedures that are standard and familiar to the divers...same gear configuration, known gases, etc. Unfamiliar set-ups will only help a situation snow-ball even more out of control. Passing off a bail out bottle, if needed, still leaves a diver on their own to deal. Last but not least, gas planning. At a site like this, a tri-mix should be used. The days of diving deep air, or the "best-mix" are gone. There has been enough research and experiences documented to show that its not a safe practice, and there are better alternatives.

Every comment that has been made should be questions that you need to find the answers for. Why was he brought there to that site? Wanting to dive something doesn't mean that you can or should. Why could a buddy who is an instructor not help or gain control of the situation? When did it not become a paid charter (when it was obviously planned)? Most people pay after the dive, so in this case its easy to say that it wasn't a paid charter.

I believe I have answered your questions. I am done wasting time going over this over and over again, as my views have not changed. If it was gear related...which I highly doubt...then depending on what it was, it could be maintenance. I doubt that it was gear related because he dove good gear and took care of it.

[Stoo]

I have said this before, here and on OD, but I think that there is far too much emphasis put on the C-card that this individual may or may not have held. There are many very capable divers around, that hold fairly basic certifications, but who have racked up large and varied dive histories. On the other hand, the victims diving history doesn't apparently indicate that he had done much diving to this depth. To me, that is the much more relevant factor.

As for not holding some sort of deco certification, I don't really think that that's relevant as every version of the accident has the fatality occurring at depth, before any decompression would have been instituted. Deco simply wasn't a factor in this accident. Admittedly, the gas-planning aspect of that course could have been helpful.

And Jay, I don't know what you have against EC, but it seems to me that you are coming awfully close to slandering him. I think it is established that this was not a paying charter, and that it was simply three friends going diving together. As for EC closing down for the year, while that might be the "sensitive" thing to do, I don't think you can reasonably expect him to do so. By your standard, every charter operation in the country would likely have to close down at one time or another. In any case, I fail to see the point in him doing so.

I also want to repeat my earlier comment that I don't really understand why some here feel that they are "owed" an explanation for what happened. I am virtually certain that we will never know all of the details of this, and even if we do, will it really make any difference? (Assuming that DCIEM doesn't determine that the victims regs were faulty, or his gas was punk...)

I read a book about ski mountaineering some time ago, and there was a recurring discussion about the high rate of fatalities in that activity, and how following an accident, there is a great clambering for information... for details and explanation. The author theorized that it served little purpose but to fuel what he called "creative rationalization". His theory was that by learning "the facts", others could simply dismiss the accident because they had learned "the reason" why it happened. In doing so, they would simply rationalize that if they didn't make the same mistake, they would be fine. Isn't this exactly the same thing we are doing?

As others pointed out here (I think it was here) anything we learn from this accident probably isn't going to change the way we dive. It might cause us to review how we go about a few things, but really, do any of us think that we dive in an unsafe manner now? I doubt it... what idiot would dive "knowing" that they weren't "safe" in the water? I am frequently criticized because I generally dive alone. I won't argue that it's for everyone, but it's how I have been diving for more than 30 years, over thousands of dives. I think I'm safe, but I also know that many people will disagree with me. (I really hope that there is an afterlife, because if and when I buy it diving alone, I would really, really want to read the thread about it! :))

So I figure that all of this crying about "deceit" and "conspiracy" really serves little point. But we can't NOT want to know all of the details. We NEED to know, because in knowing, we think we will be better equipped to avoid meeting a similar fate. At the end of the day, as I have said before, I doubt that there will be any earth-shattering finding, no matter how much we learn.

When all of the reports are out, I would bet money that this accident will be summarized something like this: Three friends went diving. One of them got sloppy. The buddy system either didn't work again (either because they didn't "practise drills" or because it was non-existent, by design or by accident). And shyte happens... because sometimes it does in a sport which has serious consequences when things go wrong.

In the age of PADI World Domination, I suspect that there are millions of divers out there that have no idea that they are literally one breath away from dying at any time. But that's a discussion for another thread...

[Jay Roy]

And Jay, I don't know what you have against EC, but it seems to me that you are coming awfully close to slandering him. I think it is established that this was not a paying charter, and that it was simply three friends going diving together. As for EC closing down for the year, while that might be the "sensitive" thing to do, I don't think you can reasonably expect him to do so. By your standard, every charter operation in the country would likely have to close down at one time or another. In any case, I fail to see the point in him doing so.



As I clarified in my other post, this is a different situation then a boat captain having a death on his boat..He was the buddy on the dive. I dont expect him to close down..But, if my friend died in front of me, I 'm not too sure I would be into diving again soon, or having much to do with diving anytime soon after that..But like I said, thats me..
Also, I believe the definition of slander is loosely defined as, words spoken FALSELY to tarnish the reputation of another. Nothing I have said has been false.

[Stoo]

But, if my friend died in front of me, I 'm not too sure I would be into diving again soon, or having much to do with diving anytime soon after that..But like I said, thats me..

Well I can't disagree with you there. As I said, taking a break might well be the "sensitive" thing to do...

I don't know enough of the details to comment on you comments about EC, so I will leave it at that.

[ScubaSteve]

People deal with grief differently. You are not him. Get over it Jay.

[Warren_L]

adiverswife.....

You have told us a lot about what isnt true without providing what is true and how you know it is true. You say he was a tech diver. Ok, which agency did he get his cert from? You say he was very experienced and prepared. Ok, how many dives had he been on?

I am NOT trying to be offensive or abrasive in any way. But, it simply isnt good enough (in my opinion) to try to shout down everyone without providing some kind of evidence that you have some idea of what you are talking about.

I for one am a pretty inexperienced diver. As such, the speculation of how this MIGHT have happened provided me a LOT of information regarding scenarios that can be a problem and how they can come about. This in turn makes me very aware of situations I need to question, or stay away from, and training I might want to consider getting. In that way the speculation can be very valuable in terms of preventing future accidents even if it is not what actually happened in this case.


Please accept my post in the spirit in which it was made and if you do in fact have information perhaps you could provide it to us.

If my post offends you in any way I apologize in advance.

Around these parts there are a number of "tech" certifying agencies, although personally I tend to think the two most prevalent are TDI and GUE. I do acknowledge that there are others, however, in my experience (other than CCR training and cave training) these two seem to be the most prevalent.

TDI actually allows you to check to see if someone has taken a particular course. The basic starting point in TDI tech training is Advanced Nitrox and Decompression Procedures.

If you go to the link:

International Training :: Diver Services :: Confirm Certification (http://www.sdi-onlinetraining.com/divers/confirm_certification.php?site=2)

You can confirm whether anyone has taken a particular course by entering the name and selecting the course. If you enter my name "Warren Lo" and select Decompression Procedures, you can verify that I took the course and achieved the certification.

Hope this helps.

[Warren_L]

I do understand that this site is to educate divers if something happens, what I do not understand is those that have tried to be-little his credentials. He was a great person and yes very dear to me so reading some quotes that he was not qualified or ready to be there or even one that he bought a course should not be part of the post. answers is what is wanted lies should be removed. those who knew him and dived with him were friends they do not take courses lightly and quotes like that are sad when posted if they want to post to help that that is what they should do.

I truly doubt that anyone is trying to belittle his credentials. I've been around the dive community long enough to know that there is predominately a genuine interest in promoting diving safety, and a big part of it is accident analysis. Every accident, fatality or not, affects the diving community as a whole and it is only natural (and human nature) to be curious about what happened and to understand the causes so that we might learn and possibly prevent future incidences.

The cause of death, as I understood, officially was drowning, but that says nothing about the cause of the accident. If learning from the incident even helps to save one person from doing the same thing, then the diver's death would not have been in vain.

I personally feel for the family. I attended the memorial and made a donation, along with hundreds of other people in the dive community - some of which are the same people asking these questions. And understandably, it is difficult at times not to perceive these questions harshly as an attack on someone, but in the final analysis, sometimes these questions need to be asked.

As for it being seemingly belittling his credentials, the problem is that no-one has actually stated or confirmed what they are. That would certainly clear the air up surrounding this issue.

[DandyDon]

Excerpting from both posts..

As for it being seemingly belittling his credentials, the problem is that no-one has actually stated or confirmed what they are. That would certainly clear the air up surrounding this issue.

I do know what I am talking about here with regards to training, with regards to the site, and what the certification level was...which was an Advanced Open Water diver, not a technical diver.

[Warren_L]

Adiverswife, I am sorry for your loss, but I do have to comment on your blasts here. Not to upset you....but......I do know what I am talking about here with regards to training, with regards to the site, and what the certification level was...which was an Advanced Open Water diver, not a technical diver. You cannot comment on a level of diving when you yourself are not certified. I knew your husband, I know the operator, and I know the site. Not making anything up, and I have stayed away from speculating with regards to gear, or anything else out of the ordinary. Those facts are not in yet.

Lake levels haven't dropped 20 ft to make this a recreational dive site.


An interesting tidbit that I think some may have overlooked is that (at least with PADI, I cannot be sure of any of the other recreational agencies since I was trained as a PADI instructor) a planned dive to 130 ft (or anything deeper than 100 ft) as part of a series of repetitive dives goes against PADI recommendations. It's clearly outlined on the back of the PADI RDP. If it was the only dive for the day, I don't think PADI says there's anything wrong with that, other than to avoid going to the limit of the planner.

[ScubaSteve]

Excerpting from both posts..

OK but nobody has said officially what they are because the AOW was "disputed" by the adviserswife (sp?). So, if AOW was his cert level, then Tech Diver he was not. If he held some Tech certification levels, then one could somewhat accurately call him a Tech Diver.

[Warren_L]

OK but nobody has said officially what they are because the AOW was "disputed" by the adviserswife (sp?). So, if AOW was his cert level, then Tech Diver he was not. If he held some Tech certification levels, then one could somewhat accurately call him a Tech Diver.

Yes, that was my point exactly.

[cruiser]

You seem to have an agenda which might be clear to others but I'll have to reread the thread to see if it is still clear with all the deletions.

I agree Jay Roy seems to have an agenda, but I also get the strong feeling it's justified, as in something has been going on for a while and it finally caught up with the parties involved. I know there's an ongoing investigation, Jay Roy, so am I warm?

[Dive Bug Bit Me]

ScubaSteve

OK but nobody has said officially what they are because the AOW was "disputed" by the adviserswife (sp?). So, if AOW was his cert level, then Tech Diver he was not. If he held some Tech certification levels, then one could somewhat accurately call him a Tech Diver.

Don't know too much about the circumstances and never knew the diver. We did, however, have a friend in common. Apparently the diver in question was enrolled in the Naui Intro to Tech course but had not completed it. (Postponed due to others in the group). Hence, to my mind not yet a tech diver.

Aside from that I am told his underwater skills were good.

[Ayisha]

TDI actually allows you to check to see if someone has taken a particular course. The basic starting point in TDI tech training is Advanced Nitrox and Decompression Procedures.

If you go to the link:

International Training :: Diver Services :: Confirm Certification (http://www.sdi-onlinetraining.com/divers/confirm_certification.php?site=2)

You can confirm whether anyone has taken a particular course by entering the name and selecting the course. If you enter my name "Warren Lo" and select Decompression Procedures, you can verify that I took the course and achieved the certification.

Hope this helps.

Ok, so we can confirm that T was not certified through TDI for any tech course.

Our GUE instructors and divers on Ontario Diving would know if he was GUE trained at a tech level.

So the latest info on his training is some portion of the NAUI Intro to Tech course. Does anyone know how much of that course he took if any?

[Ayisha]

An interesting tidbit that I think some may have overlooked is that (at least with PADI, I cannot be sure of any of the other recreational agencies since I was trained as a PADI instructor) a planned dive to 130 ft (or anything deeper than 100 ft) as part of a series of repetitive dives goes against PADI recommendations. It's clearly outlined on the back of the PADI RDP. If it was the only dive for the day, I don't think PADI says there's anything wrong with that, other than to avoid going to the limit of the planner.

Also Warren, isn't the recommended depth limit 100 feet for PADI AOW, rather than 130 feet? 130 feet is the recommended depth limit for those holding a deep diver certification. Although, the wreck in question currently sits at 145 feet. It is extremely cold water and should therefore be planned as 155 feet, to add to the mix.

[Ayisha]

If it was gear related...which I highly doubt...then depending on what it was, it could be maintenance. I doubt that it was gear related because he dove good gear and took care of it.

Gear related does not only mean the diver's maintenance of his equipment or the type of gear he was using. That's all for now.

[Country Diver]

Gear related does not only mean the diver's maintenance of his equipment or the type of gear he was using. That's all for now.


It was an example....nothing more.


On a side note...he was not GUE trained. If he was he would not have been there.

Intro to Tech is far from a tech course. It is a course that teaches divers how to use a long hose, and how to frog kick, and how to gain a little more control in the water column. It by no means gives a diver a tech rating beyond AOW. Some people think that when a diver has double tanks and they sling a stage bottle that they are tech divers. There are many recreational divers that find balance and flexibility with wearing doubles and stay within their limits of recreational dives. These divers sometimes carry a stage bottle or they call it a pony bottle. Many of these divers think that carrying a stage bottle makes them more "techy" and they want to fit in with the boys. Whatever the case, they are still AOW divers...nothing more and should know the boundaries of that certification. There is nothing down there worth pushing the limits for. Cowboy days are over and long gone. It is frowned on by people who respect the sport and the levels of training from all agencies, but yet, I still see some rogue cowboys out there, and they even post it as if bragging.

I always thought that AOW was to 130 ft, at least that's what I was told back when I had my card. If it had changed...then good for them. I have seen some AOW divers in my time and I wouldn't go 20 ft with them. Thumbed at the dock.

[DivingPrincessE]

OK but nobody has said officially what they are because the AOW was "disputed" by the adviserswife (sp?). So, if AOW was his cert level, then Tech Diver he was not. If he held some Tech certification levels, then one could somewhat accurately call him a Tech Diver.

I don't believe adiverswife has enough diving knowledge to accurately convey her husband's cert or experience level. I think if she knew she would have told us, instead of just calling everyone a liar. I don't think we can take her word that he was any sort of tech diver.


Don't know too much about the circumstances and never knew the diver. We did, however, have a friend in common. Apparently the diver in question was enrolled in the Naui Intro to Tech course but had not completed it. (Postponed due to others in the group). Hence, to my mind not yet a tech diver.

Aside from that I am told his underwater skills were good.

I agree with Country Diver. Even if he had finished the Intro to Tech course, that is a far cry from being a Tech Diver, from what I understand.

[boulderjohn]

An interesting tidbit that I think some may have overlooked is that (at least with PADI, I cannot be sure of any of the other recreational agencies since I was trained as a PADI instructor) a planned dive to 130 ft (or anything deeper than 100 ft) as part of a series of repetitive dives goes against PADI recommendations. It's clearly outlined on the back of the PADI RDP. If it was the only dive for the day, I don't think PADI says there's anything wrong with that, other than to avoid going to the limit of the planner.


Also Warren, isn't the recommended depth limit 100 feet for PADI AOW, rather than 130 feet? 130 feet is the recommended depth limit for those holding a deep diver certification. Although, the wreck in question currently sits at 145 feet. It is extremely cold water and should therefore be planned as 155 feet, to add to the mix.

I will just clarify the PADI information and add a little more to the technical diving information.

The AOW deep dive is supposed to be limited to 100 feet, and it is recommended that AOW divers stick to that limit. With the deep specialty, the recommendation extends to 130 feet. The 100 foot limit is routinely ignored, as it is only a recommendation.

The 130 foot limit is for all recreational divers and it is not merely a recommendation, because going deeper than that requires decompression and the knowledge/skills obtained through technical training.

I do not know what Warren is referencing from the back of the PADI RDP, with which I am quite familiar. Perhaps it is a reference to the WX and YZ rules, with deal with diving to limits on a day in which 3 or more dives are planned. These rules call for extended surface intervals between such dives. If the diver was diving in excess of 130 feet and using decompression procedures, the PADI RDP is not relevant, because it does not include decompression procedures. The diver would have to have been following a protocol other than the PADI RDP.

It was said previously that he had started a NAUI Intro to Tech class. I do not know the standards for NAUI into to tech, but having completed the equivalent courses (and beyond) for both TDI and UTD, I can tell you that decompression procedures are not studied at that level of certification. I am pretty sure NAUI is the same.

[Jimmer]

It was said previously that he had started a NAUI Intro to Tech class. I do not know the standards for NAUI into to tech, but having completed the equivalent courses (and beyond) for both TDI and UTD, I can tell you that decompression procedures are not studied at that level of certification. I am pretty sure NAUI is the same.

You are correct, I did the same Intro to Tech with the same instructor, and am supposed to be doing Deco procedures/Advanced Nitrox/Heliotrox in the spring with that instructor, and I believe the deceased was supposed to be in that class with me.

Jim

[Warren_L]

..........

I do not know what Warren is referencing from the back of the PADI RDP, with which I am quite familiar. Perhaps it is a reference to the WX and YZ rules, with deal with diving to limits on a day in which 3 or more dives are planned. These rules call for extended surface intervals between such dives. If the diver was diving in excess of 130 feet and using decompression procedures, the PADI RDP is not relevant, because it does not include decompression procedures. The diver would have to have been following a protocol other than the PADI RDP.


If you look under the general rules, it says "Limit repetitive dives to 100ft or shallower".

[David_57]

There seems to be a lot of discussion about his certification level/training, is this the cause of the accident or do we still have no idea?

[DivingPrincessE]

There seems to be a lot of discussion about his certification level/training, is this the cause of the accident or do we still have no idea?

I believe people are discussing the cert level because the deceased diver was diving in an area that was beyond recreational limits, without a proper post-recreational (tech level) certification. This was compounded by both the media and his wife calling him a "tech diver", which it appears he was not. There is no information to indicate that this contributed to the accident, though I'm sure it didn't help the situation.

It seems to me (a casual observer) that many of the diving accidents we read about here on SB occur when people are diving beyond their training/skill level and/or are not in good physical shape. This definitely doesn't account for ALL accidents (there are freak things, gear failures, healthy people who have heart attacks and panic attacks, etc) but just seems like a lot of accidents are caused by the two things I mentioned.

[Stoo]

It seems to me (a casual observer) that many of the diving accidents we read about here on SB occur when people are diving beyond their training/skill level and/or are not in good physical shape.

All of the studies related to diving fatalities that I have read certainly back this up. It seems that the increasing use of rebreathers might shift this a wee bit as there seems to be a disproportionate number of fatalities involving experienced divers on RBs.

That is purely an observation. I have no idea if that is actually the case.

I also suspect that as diving is practised by more of us that are approaching our "Golden Years", you will see health/fitness related accidents increase. I see people climbing onto boats in Tobermory that couldn't walk around the block without wheezing.

None of this is especially relevant to this thread's topic, but it does make you wonder if enterprising dive shops will start to offers Senior's Discounts on fills!

[divereh]

That is the problem, it should be up to the charter operator to ensure divers are qualified to do the dives. Aquaholic, I hope you get sued and shut down and possibly criminally charged.

[Dhboner]

That is the problem, it should be up to the charter operator to ensure divers are qualified to do the dives. Aquaholic, I hope you get sued and shut down and possibly criminally charged.


That is totally out of line. The details of this tragedy have yet to be publicized so it is still only speculation that a lack of training was the direct cause of the accident. I can almost guarrantee you that every day of the summer in Tobermory an "unqualified diver" dives the Arabia or the Forest City...both advanced dives (as I'm sure you know). The only person who really knows your competence is your regular diving buddy. I could show up on a charter armed with my PADI Advanced and my Deep Diver card and still not be qualified to do a dive to 120 feet. The charter operator can only do so much to ensure that the divers are prepared for the dive. Hell over the years I have known people who "padded" their logbook with ficticious deep dives just to get on an advanced charter for a trophy dive.

It is up to the individual diver to make an honest assessment of his/her abilities and experience before undertaking any dive...a charter operator can only do so much.

Bob (Toronto)

[Jim Lapenta]

A charter op only needs to get divers back and forth from the site. They can check cards and logbooks but as has already been noted it is up to the diver to determine of they are qualified to do the dive. If they are not sure they should stay out of the water. If the op has to assess every diver and tell some they need to stay on the boat or on shore then expect prices to go up dramatically. What about the ops that do not use a DM in the water? Should they have to hire one to keep the nitwit with the advanced card from killing themselves? The diver is supposed to know what their limitations are. If they don't then they screwed up somewhere when it came time to make a judgment regarding their training, abilities, and or skill level. To wish some one be sued because they expect divers to be responsible for themselves is mean spirited and childish. If a person is not capable of diving in the condtions the boat goes then it is up to them to stay on land. If they choose not to and get hurt the op is not to blame if they gave an honest briefing that includes the recommended skill level the diver should have. And the diver should be capable of seeing that when the op tells them depth, current, vis, and temp. If that is not enough info for them they should have stayed in the pool.

[David_57]

I believe people are discussing the cert level because the deceased diver was diving in an area that was beyond recreational limits, without a proper post-recreational (tech level) certification. This was compounded by both the media and his wife calling him a "tech diver", which it appears he was not. There is no information to indicate that this contributed to the accident, though I'm sure it didn't help the situation.

It seems to me (a casual observer) that many of the diving accidents we read about here on SB occur when people are diving beyond their training/skill level and/or are not in good physical shape. This definitely doesn't account for ALL accidents (there are freak things, gear failures, healthy people who have heart attacks and panic attacks, etc) but just seems like a lot of accidents are caused by the two things I mentioned.

Sorry disagree with many maybe some

[Ayisha]

Training or skill level were not the direction the coroner was going in for cause of death back in September. The coroner was apparently investigating the dive shop that provided the victim's fills - NOT Eric or Aquaholic - for bad air. This has not been confirmed publicly and it has been very hush hush. However, many divers in Ontario are aware of it.

Jim, we don't have DM's here that go in the water unless there is a course going on. The typical charter takes you to the dive site and moors; gives a dive briefing if wanted; they often tell you a maximum time they need you back by, they supervise exits and entries, assisting if necessary, and they wait for your return. I don't know of any guided dives in Ontario, and divers usually get independent really fast as a result, if they can tolerate the conditions.

[Jim Lapenta]

That is the way I like to dive and think all divers should be capable of doing so as well. You have to invite me and my friends up some time and show us the good stuff!

[Ayisha]

Anytime Jim! We'd be honoured (no, not a spelling mistake - the Canadian spelling)!
There are many beautiful, well preserved wrecks here, some in warmer (70+F), clearer water, some in extremely cold (38+F), low viz water. How long have you got? I always run charters with my friends throughout the summer and you're welcome to join us.

I hope that all of our dive shops will have inline CO monitors for recreational divers long before next summer. According to the Ministry of Labour, inline CO monitors are supposed to become mandatory in the next year or so, but most dive shops in the outskirts don't have them and many don't in the Greater Toronto Area either. There has been a push by MOL inspectors to get them installed though. I hope it is successful.

[Jim Lapenta]

Been diving in the St Lawrence when the lake flipped and water went from 68 to 61 overnight. have about a dozen dives in Lake Erie with 38-40 degree temps to max of 155 ft. Ice cert and going back to assist teaching an ice class in Jan if everything goes to plan. Would be looking at the Aug-Sept time frame.

[Graeme Tolton]

That is the problem, it should be up to the charter operator to ensure divers are qualified to do the dives. Aquaholic, I hope you get sued and shut down and possibly criminally charged.

Completely out of line. Unless you have some inside knowledge you would like to share with us. There are some divers who have every card padi makes but still are hardly qualified to dive in a pool (money hungry shops love to sell c-cards). Who are you to say that the dives done that day weren't for the charter operator to asses the diver's skills??? I am not saying that is what happened, but to throw out a statement like that, you should have something to back it up.

[shoredivr]

Training or skill level were not the direction the coroner was going in for cause of death back in September. The coroner was apparently investigating the dive shop that provided the victim's fills - NOT Eric or Aquaholic - for bad air. This has not been confirmed publicly and it has been very hush hush. However, many divers in Ontario are aware of it.



Uh...we are? First I've heard of it.

[pearldive]

Training or skill level were not the direction the coroner was going in for cause of death back in September. The coroner was apparently investigating the dive shop that provided the victim's fills - NOT Eric or Aquaholic - for bad air. This has not been confirmed publicly and it has been very hush hush. However, many divers in Ontario are aware of it.

Jim, we don't have DM's here that go in the water unless there is a course going on. The typical charter takes you to the dive site and moors; gives a dive briefing if wanted; they often tell you a maximum time they need you back by, they supervise exits and entries, assisting if necessary, and they wait for your return. I don't know of any guided dives in Ontario, and divers usually get independent really fast as a result, if they can tolerate the conditions.

Ayisha it is obvious that you are attempting to start yet another rumour about a dive store. It is apparent you work or own a store and are useing this forum to spread crap about a local store. FYI the gases in all tanks seized by police were analyzed long long ago and this was not a cause of the incident.
Maybe we should talk about the incidents that occurred at your store....

[Ayisha]

Uh...we are? First I've heard of it.

Yes, I know many divers in Ontario who are aware of this info and several of the people involved in the police investigation. I could get much more specific, but I have chosen not to until the information is official.

[Ayisha]

Ayisha it is obvious that you are attempting to start yet another rumour about a dive store. It is apparent you work or own a store and are useing this forum to spread crap about a local store. FYI the gases in all tanks seized by police were analyzed long long ago and this was not a cause of the incident.
Maybe we should talk about the incidents that occurred at your store....

I certainly do not own a dive shop or any store and I do not work for any store. I am not even an Instructor or DM, etc. - simply a recreational diver. I have not mentioned the store that the coroner was in contact with about the suspected bad fill, so nope, not spreading crap about any particular store. Many of the divers in this thread do know me personally and I have been diving with several of them - so I'm certainly not a sock puppet either. Get your facts straight before starting rumours.

There are several areas of concern regarding this incident, and none of the players should be scott-free for violations in several areas. If you are so sure about the cause of this accident, then you should come forward rather than try to cloud the issues.

[jkaterenchuk]

(money hungry shops love to sell c-cards).

Ironic.....using your own words....


Completely out of line. , but to throw out a statement like that, you should have something to back it up.

[boulderjohn]

Ironic.....using your own words....

When people use phrases like "money hungry dive shops" in reference for their charging for products and services, I always give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they work for free themselves. They probably turn down paychecks for fear that others will say something like, "Money hungry employees love to get paychecks."

[Graeme Tolton]

I was talking specifically about one poster in this thread who made an ignorant comment. I have personally dove with several of him divemasters and instructors who simply should be sent back to open water because they clearly learned nothing while collecting all sorts of cards that represent them as qualified divers. I'm sorry, but divers who can't hold safety stops, shouldn't be dive masters and those who present them with a dm certificate are doing so out of hunger for money... or maybe they felt bad for them... I have no problem with making money, but I have a huge problem with shops selling cards instead of education. I am not generalizing dive shops by any means, I am talking about one specific one. You know who you are.

[lamont]

i can see all too easily how people thinking "it must have been the gas" because they don't want to think ill of the dead, and combine that with the M.E. routinely contacting the dive shop for gas analysis could turn into rumors flying...

"bad gas" is probably one of those accusations that you want to be a bit careful about throwing around, since the M.E. should be able to accurately determine that one (based on tox screen and on analyzing leftover gas), and if you damage the dive shop / fill stations business there is lawsuit possibility there...

[Jimmer]

i can see all too easily how people thinking "it must have been the gas" because they don't want to think ill of the dead, and combine that with the M.E. routinely contacting the dive shop for gas analysis could turn into rumors flying...

"bad gas" is probably one of those accusations that you want to be a bit careful about throwing around, since the M.E. should be able to accurately determine that one (based on tox screen and on analyzing leftover gas), and if you damage the dive shop / fill stations business there is lawsuit possibility there...

Good advice, especially as I just contacted the dive shop in question, who had mandatory gas tests from the M.E. as well as having regular tests done of their own accord. Their gas came out clean, as well as the remaining gas in the deceased's doubles.

Jim

[jkaterenchuk]

[QUOTE=Jimmer;5661665 as well as having regular tests done of their own accord.

Jim[/QUOTE]

Maybe just a clarification but (in the USA and I suspect in Canada) some (if not all) scuba certifying agencies require the dive shop to get their compressed gas analysed by a certified lab on a regular schedule. Additionally, the dive shop needs to be operating under a Scuba Certification Agency in order to get Insurance.

If this is the case with the dive shop involved (and I have no idea the name of the shop or care to know) then it would hardly be called "of their own accord".

John

[DandyDon]

Maybe just a clarification but (in the USA and I suspect in Canada) some (if not all) scuba certifying agencies require the dive shop to get their compressed gas analysed by a certified lab on a regular schedule. Additionally, the dive shop needs to be operating under a Scuba Certification Agency in order to get Insurance.

If this is the case with the dive shop involved (and I have no idea the name of the shop or care to know) then it would hardly be called "of their own accord".

John
Padi used to require quarterly tests, but with no enforcement - and they were done right after filter changes and compressors were still cool at start-up. Kinda pointless, but now they don't require any. Some states & provinces may require some, but - there is only one way to know if your tank air is clean.

[Jimmer]

Maybe just a clarification but (in the USA and I suspect in Canada) some (if not all) scuba certifying agencies require the dive shop to get their compressed gas analysed by a certified lab on a regular schedule. Additionally, the dive shop needs to be operating under a Scuba Certification Agency in order to get Insurance.

If this is the case with the dive shop involved (and I have no idea the name of the shop or care to know) then it would hardly be called "of their own accord".

John

I dont particularly care how you want to word it, they have regular tests and haven't had a bad gas analysis in over 30 years of being in business. Bad gas wasn't the issue in this case.

[jkaterenchuk]

I dont particularly care how you want to word it, they have regular tests and haven't had a bad gas analysis in over 30 years of being in business. Bad gas wasn't the issue in this case.

Jimmer - it was not about how I worded anything...it was about how you worded it. Making it seem like the dive shop is going above and beyond on their own accord sound similar to those on this thread that have mentioned the counter that the gas might have been bad. Your revised statement that they have had regular tests is certainly more factual based if indeed correct. I do not have an opinion one way or the other about the gas and it impact on this accident. Until the official report is posted indicating such from an independent examiner then everything else is speculation. There has been so much speculation presented on both sides in this thread it now seems that an independant reader can only conclude that there are some major personality issues within the Southern Ontario diving community.

DandyDon - if it is no longer in the PADI shop requirements then that must have happened in the last 6 months as the copy of their dive center requirements showed it still listed as a requirement. I could not dispute the lack of any form of enforcement. However, any reasonable dive shop owner would have to carefully consider the ramifications of not having the testing done and the impacts upon their insurance carriers support should a accident occur. And your also bang on with your comments on timing of the testing samples.

John

[Jimmer]

Fair enough John,

My only goal in commenting on this thread is to make sure that what little factual information I have is added to the mix of speculation. Otherwise I have been an observer here just like the rest.

I will also agree with you that there is some very strong personalities in the Southern Ontario Diving scene.

Jim


Jimmer - it was not about how I worded anything...it was about how you worded it. Making it seem like the dive shop is going above and beyond on their own accord sound similar to those on this thread that have mentioned the counter that the gas might have been bad. Your revised statement that they have had regular tests is certainly more factual based if indeed correct. I do not have an opinion one way or the other about the gas and it impact on this accident. Until the official report is posted indicating such from an independent examiner then everything else is speculation. There has been so much speculation presented on both sides in this thread it now seems that an independant reader can only conclude that there are some major personality issues within the Southern Ontario diving community.

John

[DandyDon]

No Padi withdrew the requirement some years back. It just does not get discussed, but then a lot of shops will continue testing as it looks good to have a record of clean tests, even tho the timing of the tests make the inconclusive generally.

The best shops will install and maintain inline CO monitors like the Analox Clear or similar with automatic shut off when CO is detected at set levels. The primary compressor on Cozumel and the one at FIBR Roatan are in the process of installing Clear units, but they're rare south of the US.

I have no knowledge of how things are done in Canada.

[Ayisha]

The OUC promised to add to it's accident report and was sifting through mounds of conflicting information months ago. I hope that we can still expect a full accident report in this case as we used to in Ontario. Raimund? Brooke? Scott?

[shoredivr]

There has been so much speculation presented on both sides in this thread it now seems that an independant reader can only conclude that there are some major personality issues within the Southern Ontario diving community.

John

At least in some of those who post online ;) but I would tend to agree with you. It gets old IMO.

[ScubaSteve]

Can anybody here really say there are not "major personality issues" within the rest of the world? What we are seeing here is the same thing you see in pretty much every A&I thread no matter where it occurred. Old? Yes and that is why I tend to try to stay away from them (not always successfully) but this "quality" really has nothing to do with Southern Ontario divers specifically.

[lamont]

Can anybody here really say there are not "major personality issues" within the rest of the world? What we are seeing here is the same thing you see in pretty much every A&I thread no matter where it occurred. Old? Yes and that is why I tend to try to stay away from them (not always successfully) but this "quality" really has nothing to do with Southern Ontario divers specifically.

Yep, smells exactly like the same old politics we get around here...

[Country Diver]

So....OUC.....rumor has it that the report is now complete....Care to share or does this follow some regulations that we are not aware of in Ontario or Canada. Diving accident reports usually offer information to the dive community that can be sometimes used to avoid such incidents in the future...ideally. On the OUC website the old original report from September 2010 is posted...If the new final report is ready it would be nice to see it. Thanks.

[abnfrog]

1.....there is no law that says in canada that you have to test your air (if somthings happens to a employee of the shop then it is covered by labour law ) there is at lest 3 stores i know of where a shop(s) air came into question (no i am NOT going to tell you who they were) 2 the so called report from ouc will be worthless they have NEITHER the exsperience or knowlege to make determination of facts (no one at ouc could ever become an exspert witness ) i have heard talks from them ....a total waste of time ..... ouc is made up of the only people who would do the job , unlike what people might think ouc DID NOT do the air testing themselves (i know who did do it )..fwiw

[ScubaSteve]

1.....there is no law that says in canada that you have to test your air (if somthings happens to a employee of the shop then it is covered by labour law ) there is at lest 3 stores i know of where a shop(s) air came into question (no i am NOT going to tell you who they were) 2 the so called report from ouc will be worthless they have NEITHER the exsperience or knowlege to make determination of facts (no one at ouc could ever become an exspert witness ) i have heard talks from them ....a total waste of time ..... ouc is made up of the only people who would do the job , unlike what people might think ouc DID NOT do the air testing themselves (i know who did do it )..fwiw

Let me guess......you nailed the interview but they hired the other guy? :D. Just kidding but I do agree that we are unlikely to ever have the finer details of this (or any) incident. Fact of life most of the time.

[abnfrog]

i never had anything (or wanting) anything to do with ouc , everything i heard about them (and have seen ) makes me cring i know all the personalities involved here, the only way ANYONE will get to (most) of the truth will be to sit threw a coroners inquest , i have testified at a corners inquest and at best there is really hardly ever a real finding of fact , more than whats known publicly .If you are in the know with the people here almost all the facts are present .You make the determination ,as for the just a bunch of guys going diving or a chartrer, only 2 guys know the truth

[Dhboner]

I don't think anyone ever suggested that the OUC would be involved in any capacity in the investigation. As far as I know the limit of their involvement would be to publish any public details in their incidents reports.

[Ayisha]

Actually, the OUC does investigate accidents in Ontario, not just report them. I was told that they interview witnesses, follow leads, gather articles, etc. and they volunteer hundreds of hours of their own time per case. This accident was particularly challenging because of the number of inconsistencies between police reports, media reports, and viral emails and the OUC was having a very difficult time sorting it all out. We were, however, promised a more complete follow-up report...

[Ayisha]

I emailed this thread a short while ago to Raimund, the President of the OUC and he just phoned me. As expected, between the Coroner's Report and all the documentation, there is a massive amount of paperwork and they are working on organizing the information into a concise report and making recommendations. It will be some time, but please be patient everyone.

[abnfrog]

ouc s lack of exsperience is mind boggelling , how many years diving does the whole bunch have combined 10 years , maybe and at what level, ived talked to them they are beyond incompateint .......................

[ScubaSteve]

ouc s lack of exsperience is mind boggelling , how many years diving does the whole bunch have combined 10 years , maybe and at what level, ived talked to them they are beyond incompateint .......................


So subcontract your services to them so they are slightly less incompetent (if you are in fact any more competent than them). Or do you have another plan. I am trying to see how accessing an online web forum about scuba diving to flog them can improve the process in any way and am coming up empty. I am leaning more towards "they hired the other guy" again.

[abnfrog]

i decided to say somthing when people here think they are the be all end in ontario diving , and your leaning scubasteve just shows you know nothing of the problem im done ...............

[Crush]

ah shore du hoep thet that thair rehport iz kompruhensubl ahn punkchuatid propr like

[ScubaSteve]

i decided to say somthing when people here think they are the be all end in ontario diving , and your leaning scubasteve just shows you know nothing of the problem im done ...............


The only problem I have is not with the OUC's ability to report complete and professional information utilizing proper grammar and punctuation. It is with your desire to come into the thread, make every effort to "beat up on" the OUC without offering anything to back it up. You claim that they are crap and that you are super awesome but have offered nothing else. I am all for taking your side if you can support your libelous claims.......I somehow think that this can never happen.

[Dhboner]

Thanks for clarifying that Ayisha!

I would never disparage the OUC or any other volunteer organization for that matter.

I didn't think that the police or the coroner would share any information that was not already in the public record, with anyone not directly involved, until their investigation was complete.

Bob (Toronto)

[Ayisha]

The OUC was in contact with the police, coroner's office, etc. since this accident happened, as they are with all dive accidents in Ontario. Raimund or Brooke can fill you in on any cooperative efforts between the organizations.

The Coroner's Report and the investigation are complete, so we are just waiting now for the OUC report and recommendations, which will still be a while.

[pearldive]

Quote (Originally by Ayisha)---
Training or skill level were not the direction the coroner was going in for cause of death back in September. The coroner was apparently investigating the dive shop that provided the victim's fills - NOT Eric or Aquaholic - for bad air. This has not been confirmed publicly and it has been very hush hush. However, many divers in Ontario are aware of it.
---End Quote---

The official OUC report is in. After you read it maam, perhaps an apology for all the bad information that you circulated.
An o2 seizure can happen to anyone.

http://www.underwatercouncil.com/downloads/incident_reports/ouc_report_of_ontario_scuba_diving_incidents_in_20 10.pdf

[Warren_L]

From reading the report, it seemed to me that diver error played a pretty significant role in the incident. Based on the report, the diver had planned to dive to 130 ft with backgas of EANx 29, putting the max planned ppO2 at just over 1.4 ATA. However, the diver maxed out at 140 ft (with a ppO2 of over 1.5 ATA). Sure, anyone can experience a CNS oxygen hit, but pushing working ppO2 that high is certainly pushing the risk beyond what any recreational agency would teach to be the safe ppO2 limit. I typically don't plan dives with a working ppO2 of over 1.2 ATA myself.

This is assuming the OUC final report is relatively correct.

[Stoo]

The report makes for an interesting read... although I'm a little perplexed by some of the terminology used... "rescue tank", "right and left bank tanks"... Strange wording for a dive organization.

All the same, it is a valuable conclusion and I hope that the report is widely circulated. It should also serve as a reminder to shops to carefully mix and test fills, and also why we should all have our own O2 testing units, so we can test right before diving. I once got a fill from a shop what was supposed to be 32 EANx and it was actually close to 70. It would have made for a short dive...

I suspect that the "decedent" must have been well aware of the risks of an elevated ppO2. What we will probably never know, is whether he intended to mix 29, or whether his mix was just "off" a little and he figured it was "close enough". It's also possible that the percentage increased as the tanks mixed thoroughly in the time between filling and diving.

[Ayisha]

Quote (Originally by Ayisha)---
Training or skill level were not the direction the coroner was going in for cause of death back in September. The coroner was apparently investigating the dive shop that provided the victim's fills - NOT Eric or Aquaholic - for bad air. This has not been confirmed publicly and it has been very hush hush. However, many divers in Ontario are aware of it.
---End Quote---

The official OUC report is in. After you read it maam, perhaps an apology for all the bad information that you circulated.
An o2 seizure can happen to anyone.

No, I do not need to apologize since that is exactly where the investigation was BACK IN SEPTEMBER 2010, as you quoted above (the quote you referred to was from 2010). The new OUC report even refers to it:


The dive shop tank filling system was reviewed and no concerns were identified. The decedent had filled his own tanks prior to the dive. Evaluation of gas samples submitted from the shop was satisfactory.

I stated that the coroner was *apparently* (again see quote above) investigating the dive shop, I did not mention the name of the shop, and it was investigated and cleared. That was current info at the time. Sorry if you didn't like it being mentioned.

[Hatul]

According to the final report he suffered a convulsion at a ppO2 of 1.49 bar and the duration of the dive was only 8 minutes. This is a surprise to me as my understanding is the CNS toxicity of oxygen is time dependent and the 1.4 limit is considered conservative. Some books list a safety limit of 1.6 bar.

Adam

[Warren_L]

According to the final report he suffered a convulsion at a ppO2 of 1.49 bar and the duration of the dive was only 8 minutes. This is a surprise to me as my understanding is the CNS toxicity of oxygen is time dependent and the 1.4 limit is considered conservative. Some books list a safety limit of 1.6 bar.

Adam

While I would agree that experiencing a CNS hit at a ppO2 of around 1.5 is not that common, you need to realize that there are many other factors that can come into play in addition to just the ppO2, and considering the ppO2 alone is really just a general guideline. There is a lot we still don't know about the mechanics involved in CNS toxicity, and given this and that there are still details about the dive that we do not know, experiencing a CNS hit at a level one may not normally expect is still quite possible.

[Hatul]

While I would agree that experiencing a CNS hit at a ppO2 of around 1.5 is not that common, you need to realize that there are many other factors that can come into play in addition to just the ppO2, and considering the ppO2 alone is really just a general guideline. There is a lot we still don't know about the mechanics involved in CNS toxicity, and given this and that there are still details about the dive that we do not know, experiencing a CNS hit at a level one may not normally expect is still quite possible.

Presumably that's what happened, which means we need to rethink the margin of safety when using nitrox.

[Warren_L]

Presumably that's what happened, which means we need to rethink the margin of safety when using nitrox.

I doubt we would accomplish much by doing that in this instance since there is a lot that we do not know in way of specifics.

[Blue Sparkle]

I doubt we would accomplish much by doing that in this instance since there is a lot that we do not know in way of specifics.

What sort of additional specifics would influence this? I'm curious along the same lines as Hatul after reading the report.

Thanks,
Blue Sparkle

[Warren_L]

What sort of additional specifics would influence this? I'm curious along the same lines as Hatul after reading the report.

Thanks,
Blue Sparkle

Given that there is a lot we do not understand about the onset of CNS hits, there are things that may come into play that we cannot even account for since we either don't know what they are or do not understand the specific effect they have. For starters, do we know how much physical stress the diver was under at the time of the hit? Or how much work he was under leading up to the hit? Do physical factors come into play and how? Factors such as state of hydration, was he too warm/cold? These things can affect circulation which would affect delivery of oxygen to his tissues. Even if it were possible to determine these things quantitatively do we know what kind of effect they may have on the onset of CNS?

[swamp diver]

Presumably that's what happened, which means we need to rethink the margin of safety when using nitrox.

I would have to agree with you on this on Hatul and that is the direction both DAN and many other agencies and jurisdictions are going.

There are many risk factors for increased oxygen toxicity that we do know of such as cold water (below 49 F) or excessively warm (> 87 F), exertion, and CO2 retention (increases cerebral blood flow). Other possible factors are where an individual is in their circadian rhythm, gender, certain drugs such as decongestants (pseudoephedrine), and exposure to darkness.

On the dive in question we do know the diver was in the ppO2 range of 1.4 to 1.6 ata where the risk of oxygen toxicity is increased for some people particularly if the dive involves exertion and exposure to cold water.

Here is an excerpt from an DAN article on the subject:

Proceeding With Caution

"Between 1.4 ata and 1.6 ata (this is 99 feet / 30 meters on a 40-percent mix) is the "yellow light" region. The possibility of oxygen toxicity at 1.6 ata is low, but the margin of error is very slim compared to 1.4 ata. Individual variation, the likelihood of an unplanned depth excursion causing an increase in oxygen partial pressure, and the possibility of having to perform heavy exercise in an emergency put the possibility of oxygen toxicity at levels where caution should be exercised. Thus, levels of 1.5 to 1.6 ata should be reserved for conditions where the diver is completely at rest, such as during decompression. Again, as noted previously, the dive team must still be prepared for the possibility of an oxygen convulsion at these levels."

DAN | Medical (http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medical/?a=articles&id=35)

In this quarter's issue of Wreck Diving magazine there is a DAN article on oxygen toxicity where the author goes further and says "If you intend to dive in the 1.3 to 1.6 ata range, you may want to consider using a full face mask to mitigate the potential consequences of a seizure underwater."

I think you'll find that many divers are now using 1.2 to 1.3 ata as their maximum exposure with 1.4 ata for deco or for dives with no exertion in tropical warm water. The USN and NOAA are also using 1.3 ata and I believe in the province of BC working divers are limited to 1.2 ata.

Personally in cold Ontario waters I'd keep exposures to 1.4 ata maximum and lower if tired or if going to be exerting oneself at any level. The overall risk of oxygen toxcity may be low at 1.5 ata, however the consequences of a tonic-clonic seizure or syncopal incident underwater are unforgiving as this tragic incident shows.

For further reading I'd have a look at this Rubicon list particularly the articles by the late Dr. Bill Hamilton and that by Bitterman.
Oxygen Toxicity | Rubicon Foundation (http://rubicon-foundation.org/oxygen-toxicity/)

[Blue Sparkle]

Given that there is a lot we do not understand about the onset of CNS hits, there are things that may come into play that we cannot even account for since we either don't know what they are or do not understand the specific effect they have.

Okay, I understand that. I thought you were speaking of the specific dive, not the "unknowns" of the CNS in general.


For starters, do we know how much physical stress the diver was under at the time of the hit? Or how much work he was under leading up to the hit? Do physical factors come into play and how?

Although we don't know for sure, wouldn't it likely be not that much since they had just got in the water and descended down a line, and nothing else in particular? I realize that is not a 100% worthy assumption, and they could have exerted on the boat or getting in -- but there was no mention of unusual exertion, current, or etc. and it was the beginning of the dive.



Factors such as state of hydration, was he too warm/cold?

True, we don't know that, and he could have been dehydrated and/or chilled from the boat ride out to the site.


Even if it were possible to determine these things quantitatively do we know what kind of effect they may have on the onset of CNS?

Again, this part I understand - that being that we don't have an exact handle on the CNS. But I see that as different from whether or not we know details about the dive, and I thought you were only referring to the latter in your previous post (but I wasn't sure so that is why I asked for clarification).

I guess that's what "seemed" unusual and made me do a mental double-take. (but granted, I'm not very experienced). Just that it was the beginning of the dive, they had only just got to the bottom of the line, and there was no "unusual" stress reported by the buddy. It seems that unless there was something unusual (which it would seem the buddy probably would have reported) there would have been as little exertion as you can have while actively diving.

[Hatul]

Based on this accident and the DAN info posted above by Swampdiver I've set my computer's max ppO2 to 1.3 bar from 1.4.

Adam

[NetDoc]

PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC!

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Play nice and stay within the ToS.
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