Scubapro STINKS!

[grouchyturtle]

Has anyone seen the new Rodales with the mask ratings. Did you notice the little note at the end saying Scubapro is no longer submitting their gear for reviews.

HOW LAME!

Any company that pulls a move like this doesn't stand behind their own product and maybe they used to be great, but this just shows that they're going way down hill. The only reason they would do this is because of a few bad reviews. Hey you make s*** you get a s****y review.

Instead of trying to make a better product, they just won't let us know what's wrong with their garbage.

Between this, and the endless defects on their computers, I for one am glad I never bought anything made by Scubapro. And this move just made me decide that I'm NOT getting that Alladin computer, that I was VERY close to buying!

[5615mike]

See attached thread from several weeks ago. Very interesting

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34453[/URL]

[Walter]

At least they didn't sue.

[Detonate]

Switching to my ScubaPro reg added 15 minutes on my bottom time. It breaths extremely smooth, and I love it.

MK25/S600

[MechDiver]

grunzster once bubbled...
Has anyone seen the new Rodales with the mask ratings. Did you notice the little note at the end saying Scubapro is no longer submitting their gear for reviews.

HOW LAME!

Any company that pulls a move like this doesn't stand behind their own product and maybe they used to be great, but this just shows that they're going way down hill. The only reason they would do this is because of a few bad reviews. Hey you make s*** you get a s****y review.

Instead of trying to make a better product, they just won't let us know what's wrong with their garbage.

Between this, and the endless defects on their computers, I for one am glad I never bought anything made by Scubapro. And this move just made me decide that I'm NOT getting that Alladin computer, that I was VERY close to buying!

What total nonsense. And, like I'd believe anything in Rodales in the first place.

[agstreet]

grunzster once bubbled...
Has anyone seen the new Rodales with the mask ratings. Did you notice the little note at the end saying Scubapro is no longer submitting their gear for reviews.

HOW LAME!

Any company that pulls a move like this doesn't stand behind their own product and maybe they used to be great, but this just shows that they're going way down hill. The only reason they would do this is because of a few bad reviews. Hey you make s*** you get a s****y review.

Instead of trying to make a better product, they just won't let us know what's wrong with their garbage.

Between this, and the endless defects on their computers, I for one am glad I never bought anything made by Scubapro. And this move just made me decide that I'm NOT getting that Alladin computer, that I was VERY close to buying!

:censor:

If you think RSD is the "be all and end all" of diving knowledge and unbiased gear recommendations, SP is better off without your business and endorsement.

[roturner]

grunzster once bubbled...
<snip>

Instead of trying to make a better product, they just won't let us know what's wrong with their garbage.

<snip>

Maybe.....and maybe they're tired of paying kick-backs to Rodales for positive reviews. Ever wonder how much money it costs to keep your product in good press?

Point is there are always two sides to a story. Don't be so quick to assign blame unless you understand which game is being played.

R..

[5615mike]

roturner once bubbled...


Maybe.....and maybe they're tired of paying kick-backs to Rodales for positive reviews. Ever wonder how much money it costs to keep your product in good press?

Point is there are always two sides to a story. Don't be so quick to assign blame unless you understand which game is being played.

R..

So you are assuming that SP pays $$ under the table for good reviews rather than just spending large $$ for advertising? That's interesting. Why would they have to do that when so many people, especially those on this board, love SP.......not me
but many on this board. I'm just interested in your thought process here.

What point is it that you see has two sides? What game is it that you think you understand is being played here?

[MikeFerrara]

grunzster once bubbled...
Has anyone seen the new Rodales with the mask ratings. Did you notice the little note at the end saying Scubapro is no longer submitting their gear for reviews.

HOW LAME!

Any company that pulls a move like this doesn't stand behind their own product and maybe they used to be great, but this just shows that they're going way down hill. The only reason they would do this is because of a few bad reviews. Hey you make s*** you get a s****y review.



Rodales wouldn't know sh*t from good gear if it landed in their lap.

[MechDiver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Rodales wouldn't know sh*t from good gear if it landed in their lap.

They do have a team of hardcore Califormia bug hunters however.:mean:

[docmartin]

why all those hard feelings about rodales? you seem to be suggesting their testing is rigged. there is obviously some subjectivity in testing equipment. when i look at the more objective data such as their breathing simulator scores they certainly fall in line with tests by diver magazine in the UK. of course this could be a global conspiracy.
overall i have not found many of their reviews to be completely out of line with my -admittedly limited - experience. they are obviously catering to the beginning and purely recreational diver. therefore, the test criteria may not be the best for more advanced divers and results might vary if different criteria were used. however, they tend to be pretty clear in what they test and how it is weighted so you can draw your own conclusions.
while i certainly find shortcomings with rodales i still would like to ask all the rodale haters: is there a dive magazine with better gear reviews out there? i'd love to hear about it.
as for scubapro i would certainly like to know why exactly they do not want to be reviewed by rodales anymore. if sp deems rodales testing procedures inadequate naive readers like me would appreciate to learn what's wrong with the tests.
finally, maybe this will have some impact on one of the more dubious testing practices i.e. rodales should buy the equipment anonymously and not accept gear supplied by manufacturers.

[joens]

recently I ordered a scubapro wetsuit from an LDS I live over an hour from the dive shop so I can't go there everyday .
I ordered it 2 weeks before a trip I was going on and the dive shop said it would be in no problem to get it in time . anyway 2 days before the trip it still had not arrived at the store . the dive shop owner called scubapro and was told there was no record of the order .I don't know if the LDS or scubapro made the mistake but scubapro made it right .scubapro sent the wetsuit out overnight UPS at no additional cost.I had the wetsuit the next day.In my opinion Scubapro is bending over backwards to take care of their customers. I have bought much more scubapro gear and will continue to .
Chris Joens

[MechDiver]

docmartin once bubbled...
why all those hard feelings about rodales? you seem to be suggesting their testing is rigged. there is obviously some subjectivity in testing equipment. when i look at the more objective data such as their breathing simulator scores they certainly fall in line with tests by diver magazine in the UK. of course this could be a global conspiracy.

Speaking for myself, Rodales is a collection of dive ads with a "done that 40 times already" story thrown in for separation. Yes, I'll agree, the tests that have a definitive specification, e.g. WOB, appear to be factual and accurate. You can also get those from most of the manufaturer's websites. The subjective tests, which are many (I assume here because I no longer read the mag), are mostly rubbish. Instead of saying a piece of equipment is a POS (can we spell HUB?), they go out of their way to show it as a boon to diving. Every computer they test is a "testers choice" kind of thing.
If nothing else I guess, it gives a basis for comparing apples to apples.

MD

[DA Aquamaster]

I am no longer a fan of Rodale's and when my subscription expires I am not going to bother to renew it. Rodales is not the magazine it was or even the mag it started out to be, but it is what it is now and what it is, is a magazine that is not worth reading. In many ways it has picked up many of the same bad habits as Skin Diver and deserves the same fate.

Depite diving for nearly 2 decades, I get a whole lot more out of Dive Training and spend more time reading it than I do Rodales.

Scubapro's customer service is first rate (well...with the exception of the Uwatec computer debacle) and in most cases they go way out of their way to support both customers and dealers. Scubapro maintains items in stock and ships the vast majority of their products within a week. I cannot say the same about Dacor, where a 6 month backorder for an item is not uncommon.

[mattengstrom]

I did my classroom and pool dives at home, and then the open-water checkouts on vacation. I asked my instructor for my check-out dives what he thought of ScubaPro, because it's the primary brand carried by my LDS and I wanted an outside opinion. He was not diving ScubaPro equipment but he commented that "it's good stuff, and very durable."

[ingreevox]

I OWN NO SCUBA PRO GEAR, BUT TO ME, IN THE BUISNESS I AM IN, I REALIZE THAT GETTING MY PRODUCT OUT THERE IS IMPORTANT, AND BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE.

RODALES, WETHER YOU LIKE EM OR NOT, IS STILL ONE OF THE BIGGEST ZINES OUT THERE, AND THEY DO TEST THIER ITEMS VERY WELL.
SO IN MY OPINION, SP WAS EITHER NOT ASKED TO JOIN IN, OR THE IMPRESSION I GET FROM THE MAGAZINE IS, THEY PULLED THERE PRODUCT FROM THE TESTS.

OH YEAH, AND THE GENT WHO OFFERED THAT RODALES IS A SEEN THAT DONE THAT........WELL ARENT ALL MAGAZINES? THE NAMES JUST CHANGE!

[roturner]

5615mike once bubbled...


So you are assuming that SP pays $$ under the table for good reviews rather than just spending large $$ for advertising? That's interesting. Why would they have to do that when so many people, especially those on this board, love SP.......not me
but many on this board. I'm just interested in your thought process here.

What point is it that you see has two sides? What game is it that you think you understand is being played here?

I work in another industry where that kind of thing is pretty normal. Wining and dining the editors, giving them all-expenses-payed trips to the Cayman islands for a week, making sure they never miss the Super-bowl etc etc are also a form of "kick back" that's not necessarily going into the pockets of the company but can still "buy" you the results you want. Maybe in scuba-land they don't have such big budgets so free gear to the bosses and all their friends might be the kick-back. I"m not sure but if it works anything like the industry i'm in then I'm sure that it's happening, just not the exact form the kick-back takes.

Don't forget, reviews *are* advertising and most companies want results from their advertising and are willing to pay for those results. For example if the makers of spare-air were to pay enough to Rodales' editors then the next thing you know there would be articles about how much safer it is to dive with spare-air. They might even be able to get Dread Gilligan himself to write it......

Rodales makes no claims that I know of of being "unbasied" and it's a useful tool for manufacturers. It can be a bit of an incestuous relationship too because of the amount of "you-scratch-my-back-and-i'll-scratch-yours" going on. Scuba-pro is playing but so is Aqualung and the game can get pretty intense.

Perhaps the scrap going on between Scuba-pro and Rodales right now has to do with Scuba-pro wanting better reviews from Rodales and Rodales is pressing them for bigger kick-backs. It's negotiation going on. Scuba-pro is probably just raising the stakes with the cold-shoulder tactic. I'd say this has nothing to do with Scuba-pro's confidence in it's gear. I'd say this has to do with the fact that Rodales needs Scuba-pro to make their magazine at least have the appearance of credibility and Scuba-pro knows that it has a following of people who don't want to read reveiws if Scuba-pro isn't represented.

Why now? Maybe there is another big regulator smack-down coming at Rodales and Scuba-pro wants to get a better review than Auqalung. There's a lot at stake if they don't and I bet they're willing to fight for it. What good is a Rodales regulator smack-down if Scuba-pro isn't represented? What good is a first-place review to Aqualung if Scuba-pro wasn't represented?

Let that sink in a bit.

And docmartin don't take this as anti- Rodales. I just find the situation very familiar sounding and I don't have any ill feeling towards the players. It's just a game and those are the rules. It's not my game. I'm just a spectator not the referee.

R..

[grouchyturtle]

OK maybe I was a little off on my original post.

And yes I've never had any SP gear.

And no Rodales isn't the be all end all.

But...
between reading this threadhttp://www.scubaboard.com/showthrea...&threadid=34453 (http://) and what I keep hearing for other who do or used to use SP.

I'm sticking with at least one part of my original opinion. SP used to be a great company, but has been going down the toilet. And as far as instructors or LDS telling you how great they are, as mentioned earlier, DUH of course it is, their selling it!

[DA Aquamaster]

The Mk 10 was and is considered bullet proof and is argued by many as being the best first stage ever made - and the vlume of the argument dies away to a quiet babble if you include all the Mk 10 clones as being Mk 10's.

That's a tough act to follow. SP developed the Mk 15 to accmodate higher service pressures brought on by DIN valves with the added benefit of improved flow rates and a more stabel IP compared to the Mk 10. It can be argued that this performance improvement is overkill, but it is there none the less, and much of this perfromance improvement was made available to Mk 10 owners through the plus kit upgrade. You just don't EVER see any other company doing that and providing that kind of support.

With the Mk 20 they added bushings to make the reg easier to service, with the consequence of making it more dependent on annual servicing to replace the bushings. (which is not a big deal as SP has always recommended annual servicing of their regs.) The real killer was moving to the TIS kit for cold water protection. The TIS kit simplified Nitrox compatibility at a time when everybody said that you needed O2 clean regs for nitrox use and from that standpoint the move made sense. None of this had anything to do with the company getting cheap under Johnson Worldwide, but rather with the company being responsive to changes in the industry.

My concerns of late are that:

SP is not returning to the use f SPEC kits on the Mk 25 as they are guarenteed to work and would not be a problem with enriched air up to 40%. and,

SP has moved to plastic orifices in several regs.

But to be fair, to meet the then new CE requirements that everybody was so hot about, SP had to detune many of it's second stages anyway and the performance loss of using a cheaper to make and replace plastic orifice was really a non issue as the performance advantages of the older brass orifice could not be utilized anyway under the new standards. The only downside has been that technically capable customers can no longer retune the new regs for the same level of perfromance they used to get out of the old regs.

If you want to blame somebody for the decline in performance of some of the newer SP regs, you have to lay a lot of the blame on the folks who developed the CE standards for regs (not exactly what you would call a non political or non biased process) and you also have to lay some of the blame on all the divers who put stock in CE approval. Scubapro just did what it had to do to stay marketable. I don't like it but I understand it.

[5615mike]

roturner once bubbled...
.........
Don't forget, reviews *are* advertising and most companies want results from their advertising and are willing to pay for those results........Rodales makes no claims that I know of of being "unbasied" and it's a useful tool for manufacturers. It can be a bit of an incestuous relationship too because of the amount of "you-scratch-my-back-and-i'll-scratch-yours" going on. Scuba-pro is playing but so is Aqualung and the game can get pretty intense.

Perhaps the scrap going on between Scuba-pro and Rodales right now has to do with Scuba-pro wanting better reviews from Rodales and Rodales is pressing them for bigger kick-backs. It's negotiation going on. Scuba-pro is probably just raising the stakes with the cold-shoulder tactic. I'd say this has nothing to do with Scuba-pro's confidence in it's gear. I'd say this has to do with the fact that Rodales needs Scuba-pro to make their magazine at least have the appearance of credibility and Scuba-pro knows that it has a following of people who don't want to read reveiws if Scuba-pro isn't represented.

Why now? Maybe there is another big regulator smack-down coming at Rodales and Scuba-pro wants to get a better review than Auqalung. There's a lot at stake if they don't and I bet they're willing to fight for it. What good is a Rodales regulator smack-down if Scuba-pro isn't represented? What good is a first-place review to Aqualung if Scuba-pro wasn't represented?........

R..

This might make sense if Rodales was the one who pulled the product from their tests. How does this look to SP customers? OUR mfg won't submit their products for the largest testing group in the market. What's wrong? I think SL should test them anyway from the retail market. I guess you have to hope that all SP customers think of Rodales the way you do. Don't get me wrong, I don't think they are the end all rag either it's just that you make this whole thing out to an AL vs. SP fight and I don't buy that.

[ElectricZombie]

So what, ScubaPro doesn't submit gear to Roadales anymore. If you want info on gear, Roadales is not a good source.

Personally, I would not want my company mentioned in a crappy, worthless mag like Roadales. This may be the case with ScubaPro. Roadales has reached new lows in the last year or so.

I own a bunch of ScubaPro regs and have never had any problems with them. Their regs breath as good as I would ever want and they are reliable.

[5615mike]

ElectricZombie once bubbled...
So what, ScubaPro doesn't submit gear to Roadales anymore. If you want info on gear, Roadales is not a good source.

Personally, I would not want my company mentioned in a crappy, worthless mag like Roadales. This may be the case with ScubaPro. Roadales has reached new lows in the last year or so.

I own a bunch of ScubaPro regs and have never had any problems with them. Their regs breath as good as I would ever want and they are reliable.

EZ......so where do you suggest that people obtain their info on gear? You offered no solution to the situation........just that Rodales is not a good source. I'm not sticking up for them I'm just curious as to where you suggest that this NON-BIASED info be obtained.

[Crispy]

Please forgive my ignorance, although I have read Rodale's in the past, I do not subscribe to it or have a copy handy for review.

I haven't heard anything, other than speculation, that sugests that S.P. not submitting thier equipment for review is due to poor test ratings.

I don't recall if RSD allows advertisements for online or grey market suppliers. I would find it more believable that S.P. would have a problem with that more than anything else. Here is a company taking great steps to protect their LDS buyers by controlling thier supply (seperate issue altogether, I know blah, blah, blah..) and now they support a magazine that would advertise companies that would undercut that effort??? I wouldn't think so.

And the flip side of the argument pertaining to bad reviews of S.P. equipment would be perhapse it is a protest of overly positive reviews of competitors equipment, who may have just signed a lucrative advertising contract with R.S.D.

again, I only suggest these as alternative thoughts to the whole S.P. got a few bad reviews ( I don't know of any?) and now won't submitt equipment for review.

my $.02

-Crispy

[cornfed]

[ElectricZombie]

Crispy once bubbled...

again, I only suggest these as alternative thoughts to the whole S.P. got a few bad reviews ( I don't know of any?) and now won't submitt equipment for review.


In the last reg review Roadales did, I beleive they tested every reg ScubaPro makes. Several of the ScubaPro models received a perfect score - 20 points out of 20 points. Their other models received scores of 18 or 19.

So, I don't think bad reviews were the cause.

[roturner]

5615mike once bubbled...


This might make sense if Rodales was the one who pulled the product from their tests. How does this look to SP customers? OUR mfg won't submit their products for the largest testing group in the market. What's wrong?



I agree it doesn't look very good to SP customers. Scubapro is obviously putting their money on the bet that people will blame Rodales. It's a calculated risk, a balancing act between the damage a bad review will do and the damage caused by refusing to be a party to your own bad review. Remember SP wants results from it's advertising dollar.....Add to that a bit of macho boardroom ego and it starts to make sense.



I think SL should test them anyway from the retail market.


I'm sure they would if they could. My guess is that Rodales is on contract to only test products submitted for review.



I guess you have to hope that all SP customers think of Rodales the way you do. Don't get me wrong, I don't think they are the end all rag either it's just that you make this whole thing out to an AL vs. SP fight and I don't buy that.

AL vs. SP? I guess you mean Aqualung vs Scubapro. That's right. This is the crux of it. AL and SP aren't fighting. They're just acting like normal competitors who are vying for the same market with similar products. SP wants to get the inside track and they'll fight for that. Rodales is just one of the many means the manufacturers have to get their message out there. If Rodales is displaying a bias towards Aqualung (maybe becasue they got bigger kick-backs from AL -- afterall AL are fighting for the inside track too) then Scuba-pro might get right pi*sed about that and take their ball and go home. If they make the right noises about it at the right time then it might just undermine the value of the whole review. In othre words, this whole thing could be a tactic from Scuba-pro, essentially saying "if we can't win we'll undermine the review and make sure AL doesn't win either". Once again I see this as normal competitive behaviour for a company that makes use of reviews as a form of advertising.

As for Rodales, I"m sure they're stuck in the middle. AL probably paid top dollar for a big review and Rodales can't suddenly side with Scuba-pro because SP gets in a snit about it. If they did that then AL would get in a snit and Rodales would just have the same problem. From the Rodales perspective all they can do it put a spin on it by whining that "SP doesn't want to play" and try to make it look like it's SP's fault. It's an escalation that could have repercussions down the line for how Rodales goes about it's reviews but for now we'll just have to see how it ends. My guess is that in the end they'll probably reach terms with SP and give them a nice review with a "tie" for first place together with AL. It's a compromise that won't make SP outright happy but one that doesn't give AL an out-right win either.

R..

[docmartin]

excuse me but this is getting a little too imaginative. you are jumping to conclusions based on absolutely nothing. while i agree that sp and al are major competitors i fail to see where sp has ever gotten a bad review from rodales. sp is about the last company with reason to complain about rodales test results. furthermore, what kind of contract could preclude rodales from buying gear through retail channels? these could only be contracts between rodales and each manufacturer. that seems silly and improbable. in any event, if scubapro just terminated their relationship rodales would now be free to buy the gear.
obviously something happened in the relationship between sp and rodales but the facts are that sp has always looked golden in rodales' reviews. any speculation about Al outbribing sp for good reviews is just that - speculation with no facts to support it.

[MikeFerrara]

I have lots of problems with Rodales. They essentially ran a publicity campaign for the TDI solo class. I believe it was deceptive and irresponsible. I don't care if you solo dive or not but I still think that campaign was lower than dirt. If I have to rescue another TDI solo diver I'm going to have a face to face talk with some jerk at Rodales on my way to see Bret.

For the last several years they've pushed split fins as the best thing since sliced bread. The fact that they don't test them the way most people dive is one problem. I would also like to see the statistical calculations from some of their so called tests. Like the one that claimed lower air consumption due to the use of nitrox. I no longer allow student to use split fins in most of the classes I teach because I've never seen any one display good finning technique when using them. Therefore any one whith splits will be unlikely to complete the course. Rodales praise of them is based on lower perceived effort and improved air consumption but going in a streight line at some speed (maybe max speed) who cares! Most diving involves a kick and a cost, a stop and a turn. You won't get very good air consumption while doing that in splits because of all the wiggling around you'll have to do. But...how would any one at rodales know that. They've billed these fins as a cure for a problem that's based on a lack of technique. Better technique is the cure for cramps and air consumption. Split fins only fool a new diver into thinking the problem is solved. Rodales either took advantage of that or they just don't know the difference, AFAIC.

Beyond that just read some of the articles. Like the one about the diver in the "modeling" bc who got it tore off them while using a reef hook. Read the lessons the non-diving fool learned after being rescued by other divers. Way off base. They haven't a clue and they're not doing new divers any good.
It wouldn't be so bad except some people believe that crap.

[docmartin]

agreed.

[awap]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Most diving involves a kick and a cost


ROFLMAO

Thanks

[MikeFerrara]

OOOPS...

[roturner]

docmartin once bubbled...
excuse me but this is getting a little too imaginative. you are jumping to conclusions based on absolutely nothing. while i agree that sp and al are major competitors i fail to see where sp has ever gotten a bad review from rodales. sp is about the last company with reason to complain about rodales test results. furthermore, what kind of contract could preclude rodales from buying gear through retail channels? these could only be contracts between rodales and each manufacturer. that seems silly and improbable. in any event, if scubapro just terminated their relationship rodales would now be free to buy the gear.
obviously something happened in the relationship between sp and rodales but the facts are that sp has always looked golden in rodales' reviews. any speculation about Al outbribing sp for good reviews is just that - speculation with no facts to support it.

I guess this was directed at me.

You're right. It's all speculation with no directly supporting facts. What I *do* know for a fact is that this sort of thing happens but in this case I can't say with 100% certainty that this is the reason Rodales and SP are scrapping. It all sounds suspiciously familiar but it should be said out loud for anyone who was totally convinced by my scenario.

Re contracts to only review submitted products. Why would this not be the case? I know such agreements are made in the PC computer industry I don't know why the scuba industry would be any different.

As for SP always looking good in Rodales, I'd say this support my argument/scenario more than anything else. How would you react if one of your major advertisers were suddenly to start betting on a new horse?

R..

[5615mike]

roturner

Rodales under contract to only review those items submitted for review:rolleyes: Under contract with who?

Who is going to keep them from reviewing anyone's products? You like others continue to focus only on the reg's portion of their business. Hell SP makes alot of gear. As mentioned earlier, I have not seen a poor SP reg review so why would they be so concerned about that anyway.

[docmartin]

here is what i do not understand: if what roturner describes is indeed happening then i would assume most if not all manufacturers would know about it. after all the game can't be played if noone knows the rules. so let's assume certain companies such as sp and al buy good reviews from rodales. again, this would hardly be a secret in the industry and roturner's scenario implies that sp would know about a new al deal with rodales. why on earth would any other manufacturer such as atomic, mares... submit their equipment for testing when they know in advance the tests are rigged and they can only lose?

also, if this is how it works everybody would want to bribe because otherwise the review of your equipment could be nothing but disappointing. however, if everybody pays they would obviously all want a great review in return. but to have a winning review there must be some losers. how do you determine the losers when everybody is paying? the ones who pay the least? i don't think so. they would be better off not participating at all instead of paying anything. so in the end you'd end up with a couple of deep pocketed companies all paying the same amount in bribes for the same meaningless test scores (A+ for all). that's obviously not happened judging by rodales scoring.

don't get me wrong, i certainly find many flaws with rodales testing (mikeF gave some good examples). the point i am trying to make is that this scenario of companies buying reviews and outbidding each other is just too simplistic and unlikely to work. they all are industry pros and know what's going on. scuba is a small industry and people change companies and allegiances. if tests were rigged like that the losers would make it known. after all, right or wrong, a lot of buying decisions are based on these reviews.

[awap]

any more than than American corporations buy support from elected representatives. ... Well, maybe that isn't such a good example. ... Or maybe it is!

I'm betting that there is a disagreement over testing methodologies because the results basically say that there is a whole bunch of pretty darn good stuff coming from lots of manufacturers. I don't think SP likes being one of a number of "top dogs" in the pack and they are going to try to break that image on there own.

Shall we start a pool on when the next SP add will appear in RDS? I'm just amazed that two mutually dependent businesses could not work this out. I think they are just hurtting each other.

[docmartin]

well there you have it. that's a great example. and everybody knows that corporations are doing it. campaign contributions are not a secret. of course this analogy does not fit when it comes to the mystery why manufacturers would submit gear for review when they know the tests are rigged and they can't win.
interesting point about why sp may be unhappy with the testing methodologies. could be although i did not think they were that generous with their tester's choice stamp. the hard reality probably is that there are a number of manufacturers that make decent gear and the differences just are not that great. maybe they should try to differentiate themselves in different ways. for example, if they started selling service kits i would become a customer ;)

[roturner]

docmartin once bubbled...
here is what i do not understand: if what roturner describes is indeed happening then i would assume most if not all manufacturers would know about it. after all the game can't be played if noone knows the rules. so let's assume certain companies such as sp and al buy good reviews from rodales. again, this would hardly be a secret in the industry and roturner's scenario implies that sp would know about a new al deal with rodales. why on earth would any other manufacturer such as atomic, mares... submit their equipment for testing when they know in advance the tests are rigged and they can only lose?

also, if this is how it works everybody would want to bribe because otherwise the review of your equipment could be nothing but disappointing. however, if everybody pays they would obviously all want a great review in return. but to have a winning review there must be some losers. how do you determine the losers when everybody is paying? the ones who pay the least? i don't think so. they would be better off not participating at all instead of paying anything. so in the end you'd end up with a couple of deep pocketed companies all paying the same amount in bribes for the same meaningless test scores (A+ for all). that's obviously not happened judging by rodales scoring.

don't get me wrong, i certainly find many flaws with rodales testing (mikeF gave some good examples). the point i am trying to make is that this scenario of companies buying reviews and outbidding each other is just too simplistic and unlikely to work. they all are industry pros and know what's going on. scuba is a small industry and people change companies and allegiances. if tests were rigged like that the losers would make it known. after all, right or wrong, a lot of buying decisions are based on these reviews.

Thinking in bribes is too simplistic. A "kick back" can take many forms, not all of which are simple bribes. You said yourself that scubapro hardly (if ever) gets a bad review in Rodales. Mike F cited an out-and-out endorsement of TDI's solo course. How do you think those things happen?

Is it
(A) because TDI's solo course is *so* worthy of specific endorsement? or
(B) because Dread Gilligan did the I-scratch-your-back-and-you-scratch-mine thing with them......

Likewise not many people would easily be convinced that Scubapro's stuff is out-and-out the best on the market but if you only read Rodales you might think so. Where do you think these biases come from?

Does it seem impossible to you that many, most or even all of the manufacturers indicate what they would like to see written in the "subjective" part of the reviews? It wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that they even supply Rodales with the text. Don't forget these reviews are advertising and the companies involved want results. I'll see if I can invent a few:

"I get better air consumption with these split fins"
"regulator X breathes dry inverted"
"when I'm diving in condition X I want this reg"

How about this one. A direct quote from a review of a Scubapro computer:



Scubapro's Uwatec Smart Com air-integrated and Smart Pro non-air-integrated computers use a unique algorithm that takes into account actual diver behavior and environmental conditions, and additionally providing the user with the ability to program in six levels of micro-bubble suppression to increase safety. Screens are 35 percent larger than previous generations with larger numbers and icons but no color highlights. Desaturation time and time to fly are calculated instead of using a standard countdown. Replaceable hinged screen covers protect the displays. The Smart Com reads tank pressure to 4,350 psi in one-psi increments and is available with a quick-disconnect hose fitting (about $15 extra). Each computer comes with its own padded storage bag and SmartTrak software that uses an infrared PC interface.


Ask yourself. Does that sound like a review or does that sound like an advertisement? Who do you *really* think wrote that?

And finally, check this out. On one of the gear reviews (fins) they even put in this bit of text



In appreciation

Many thanks to Bayman Bay Club for their help and hospitality, to Scubapro for the loan of air-integrated dive computers, to Polar USA for the loan of heart monitors, and to Cetacea Diving Products for providing underwater slates and other equipment for the tests.


For crying out loud, Rodales is even *telling* you what the kick-back was! BTW, the Scubapro twin jet reviewd in that article got yet another (3 in a row) glowing review and tester's recommendation ....... They even say that the scubapro twin jet is the fastest fin they've ever tested accompanied by another review that sounds like an advertisement to me..... Personally I'm skeptical.

Obviously you're under no obligation to believe a thing I'm saying but I will say that I know from first hand experience that these things happen. And believe me the higher the stakes get the more intense the game. That Scubapro "gets" (in the sense of "acquires") good reviews in Rodales seems tame and perfectly normal to me in the context of the world I work in.

As for Atomics, they don't get bad reviews in Rodales either. Look at the reviews they get. Look at *most* reveiws. They're hardly ever negative and at probably about 30% of the products get "testers choice" stamps. Atomics might not get the superlatives that Scubapro gets but it still gets positive advertising.

R..

[docmartin]

i am with you on this. what you describe about how manufacturers or agencies buy coverage and make sure certain comments etc are inserted does not surprise me. you quoted some great examples. it is more subtle than buying outright first place in a test. sad state of affairs. the alert consumer has to learn how to read between the lines.

[grouchyturtle]

Or read between the posts! I get most of my product reviews from this board.

[rescuediver009]

Like any other reg, scubapro has its ups and downs. They are a good reg and they are extremely rugged and durable, however if you priced one out, you could buy an entire apeks set-up for the price of only the scubapro 1st & 2nd. They likely perform just as well if not better. Not to mention servicability. Unless you go to a scubapro dealer you will have a hard time finding someone with the right tools. Meanwhile apeks is one of the simplest regs to service and they are just as rugged and reliable. Not to mention the great environmental seal and their versatility.
:doctor:

[scywin]

I can't remember seeing anything in Rodales that was tough on any manufacturer. The whole magazine reads like an advertisement.

Meanwhile, my local LDS is a ScubaPro dealer and I do have ScubaPro regulators and split fins. I am pleased with both and would be rather surprised by a negative review anywhere except in a DIR related thread on scubaboard! LOL

The prices are high, but the LDS gives me a discount and other top brands seem expensive too.

I'd be speculating on the reason for the disagreement between the two companies, but I have more respect for the quality of ScubaPro than I do for the reviews in Rodales.

[5615mike]

roturner

You made some nice points in your last post but you did not address my earlier question.

Rodales under contract to only review those items submitted for review Under contract with whom?

Who is going to keep them from reviewing anyone's products?

You like others continue to focus only on the reg's portion of their business. Hell SP makes alot of gear. As mentioned earlier, I have not seen a poor SP reg review so why would they be so concerned about that anyway?

[ColdH20diving]

Detonate once bubbled...
Switching to my ScubaPro reg added 15 minutes on my bottom time. It breaths extremely smooth, and I love it.

MK25/S600

Was that because you were freediving? I'm not knocking Scubapro products, but I have a hard time believing any regulator would add that much additional time. Unless it leaked like a big dog.

[roturner]

5615mike once bubbled...
roturner

You made some nice points in your last post but you did not address my earlier question.

Rodales under contract to only review those items submitted for review Under contract with whom?

Who is going to keep them from reviewing anyone's products?

You like others continue to focus only on the reg's portion of their business. Hell SP makes alot of gear. As mentioned earlier, I have not seen a poor SP reg review so why would they be so concerned about that anyway?

I"m making the somewhat dubious assumption that there are some agreements made as to what gets reviewed and when.

What probably happens is that Rodales contacts the manufacturers with a date to submit items for review for an upcoming issue. Setting a deadline for submissions has two functions. First of all manufacturers can't change what they submit after a certain date. This ensures that the test team has enough time to finish the job. The other function that a deadline has is to cover Rodales against dubious claims from manufactuerers who feel they've been unjustly disadvantaged by a test when they were about to bring out something even better. In other words, the deadline keeps the moaners from moaning by giving them the chance to negotiate a deadline for submissions. So....if your testlab is setting deadlines for submissions, then the manufacturer has defacto the option of not making a submission. Probably (at least what I would expect) is that this "defacto" non-submission is formalised in some sort of agreement or contract.

If Rodales were to then buy something retail and review it then they could find themselves in the soup. Not only for the deadline thing but if they gave something a bad review then the manufacturer would automatically object, make the claim that the unit wasn't tested/tuned/packaged/etc etc etc by the manufacturer's staff and as such "something" must have been done to the unit by a third party to make it give those results. If you're reading between the lines you're already smelling the liability issues and I think you can fill in the rest from there.

At least this is how it works in the PC computer industry with the extra complication that if a testlab were to buy something retail for testing that the manufacturer would automatically sue because *they* would have never submitted *that* configuration (no matter what it was) for review..... In scuba the products are less complex so you might be able to get away with it but you still need to be careful that the manufacturer is totally and singularly responsible for the thing that you're reviewing.

As for your second question, I have no idea why SP would be in a snit., As you said Rodales only gives positive reviews (rare exceptions notwithstanding). The only thing I can think of is that Scubapro is pushing for yet another layer of icing on the cake.

R..

[srkdvr]

;-0 ;-0 ;-0 ;-0
I have used Scubapro ever since I have been diving.... NOT ONE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!! Guess yours is just like everything else, sometimes you get a bad one.

Rich

[5615mike]

roturner once bubbled...


I"m making the somewhat dubious assumption that there are some agreements made as to what gets reviewed and when.

My point exactly. That's why they should not do this if in fact these agreements are in place. In earlier posts, I as well as others support the process of test what's available on the street from local retailer so comparisons are made on equipment any end user might end up purchasing. If there happens to be a problem with the unit then this is no different than you our I having the same problem.

What probably happens is that Rodales contacts the manufacturers with a date to submit items for review for an upcoming issue. Setting a deadline for submissions has two functions. First of all manufacturers can't change what they submit after a certain date.

For someone who has such an opinion on this subject you are making way too many assumptions. You start making assumptions on something like this and you can create ANY reality you desire. Quit comparing the scuba industry to the computer industry unless you have FACTS. IMO it does not belong

This ensures that the test team has enough time to finish the job. The other function that a deadline has is to cover Rodales against dubious claims from manufactuerers who feel they've been unjustly disadvantaged by a test when they were about to bring out something even better.

So what. The testing facility is testing what is available at the time of testing. That is the point...........here's what available in the marketplace. If they wait for something to become available from the mfg more than likely it's not available to the general public at that same time. If they are submitting new or test mules then that's not a typcial retail product and should not be allowed to be compared to over the counter products that are submitted by other mfg's.

In other words, the deadline keeps the moaners from moaning by giving them the chance to negotiate a deadline for submissions. So....if your testlab is setting deadlines for submissions, then the manufacturer has defacto the option of not making a submission. Probably (at least what I would expect) is that this "defacto" non-submission is formalised in some sort of agreement or contract.

If Rodales were to then buy something retail and review it then they could find themselves in the soup. Not only for the deadline thing but if they gave something a bad review then the manufacturer would automatically object, make the claim that the unit wasn't tested/tuned/packaged/etc etc etc by the manufacturer's staff and as such "something" must have been done to the unit by a third party to make it give those results.

Why are they "in the soup?" As mentinoned earlier, if they get a bad piece of equipment then that is no different from any retail customer having the same issue. The mfg. can object all they want. What do mfg. do if you purchase something in the open market and it's bad. They have a warranty. Short of that the mfg. does nothing. In this particular case they might not be too thrilled with their equipment producing a bad showing but all the testing facility has to do is show that it was acquired from a retail shop and they don't really have a leg to stand on. There is no liability issue here........none what so ever. If the unit was not tuned property then that's the mfg's problem with quality control. It's no one's fault but their own if tainted products gets to retail stock. See, again, all your comments when you get specific really are addressing only reg's. What about all the other equipment SP mfg's?

If you're reading between the lines you're already smelling the liability issues and I think you can fill in the rest from there.

I am reading between the lines and there is no liability issue here if they can produce documentation as to how they acquired the products


At least this is how it works in the PC computer industry with the extra complication that if a testlab were to buy something retail for testing that the manufacturer would automatically sue because *they* would have never submitted *that* configuration (no matter what it was) for review..... In scuba the products are less complex so you might be able to get away with it but you still need to be careful that the manufacturer is totally and singularly responsible for the thing that you're reviewing.

Again with the computer/scuba comparison. IMO it does not belong. The computer industry is much more complicated and has many more variables hardware/software combinations etc.. Why do we need to "be more careful that the manufacturer is totally and singularly responsible for the thing that you're reviewing". YES, they are responsible, its their product. That's why they purchase product liability insurance but that's a completely different issue. If they mfg a product then they are completely responsible so where does this CONCERN you have come from?


As for your second question, I have no idea why SP would be in a snit., As you said Rodales only gives positive reviews (rare exceptions notwithstanding). The only thing I can think of is that Scubapro is pushing for yet another layer of icing on the cake.

Again with another assumption. You should really quit doing that:boom:


R..

[roturner]

5615mike once bubbled...


<snip>


Why are they "in the soup?" As mentinoned earlier, if they get a bad piece of equipment then that is no different from any retail customer having the same issue. T


Maybe you're right that the scuba industry isn't comparable to the PC industry. I could very well be drawing a parallel that isn't there but if I had to bet on it I'd still bet on my scenario.

Consider this: remember a couple of years ago when Rodales tested some regulators and gave one of them a "safety warning" or whatever they called it? They got the reg from the manufacturer and that bad review was the manufacturer's problem. If they had gotten it from somewhere else then the manufacturer may have been able to provide a regulator that *did* pass the test and then Rodales would be responsible (read liable) for the reg they acquired and the review. The claim would include damages from lost sales and damage to reputation etc. I'm not making this stuff up. It happens all the time. Where you want the manufacturer to be 100% responsible is when you are publishing "facts" about a product that might be different (or additional) to what the manufacturer puts in their advertising. Subjective reviews are opinions and it's not as big a problem.



Again with another assumption. You should really quit doing that


My bad. I'm going to go spank myself now :out:

R..

[kgdiver]

I feel Scuba Pro make quality products. They are durable and from my experience there gear has good performance. Also I like that SP's gear can be serviced almost anywhere in the world.