Do techs use torque wrenches to do repairs?

[SCUBASailor]

I just saw a post from a tech in which he said that although the manufacturers state recommended torques when assembling regulators, techs don't use torque wrenches when they are working. He was very clear regarding the general disregard for torqueing specs. He even stated that in his training class, the instructor told the students that no one uses torque wrenches in the real world.

Is this true? It's scary to me that manufacturer's specs would be widely ignored. Should I be concerned? Should I question my LDS about whether their techs bother using torque wrenches?

[ScubaSteve]

I have seen and posted in that thread and I think that this person is in the minority. So are the techs that I have taken my regs to recently. I have had nothing but problems with two shops and will no longer take any of my equipment to them. This however, has not turned me off. If I had regs that were serviceable by the shop I frequent, I would not hesitate in the least to put trust in them. I do believe more techs follow the rules than ignore them.

[halocline]

Some torque specs are more critical than others. The old scubapro MK5 had a brass turret bolt that was easily damaged by over tightening; later MK20s had a yoke bolt that could damage the body if they were over tightened. In both cases SP changed the part to make the reg more "idiot proof" for servicing. It's pretty scary when the scuba gear companies insist that consumers leave the servicing to the certified "experts" and then consistently modify the regs because they lack faith in the ability of those "experts."

Other torque specs, like for port plugs, are not crucial and nobody I've ever seen uses a torque wrench to install those.

[herman]

I suspect that a lot of techs don't use them. I don't unless the amount of torque is critical but I am not working on others regs. After turning a wrench for a lot of years, you can come close enough on a lot of things. Over tightening is the main problem with not using them on regs, unlike some applications where warping of surfaces can occur if you don't torque something equally.

[awap]

I watched a boat mechanic install spark plugs in my engine and asked him why he was not using a torque wrench (steel plugs in an aluminum head with a spec of 17 ft-lb). He said he had done it so much he didn't need one. I checked the torque on all the plugs when I got home. Torque ranged from about 10 ft-lb to almost 25 ft-lb. He lost a customer.

Dive shops that do not have a torque wrench definitely do not use them. Ask your shop to see their torque wrenches.

[NAUI AL]

Sadly, it is true. Find a shop that services gear correctly or suffer the consequences. I only use one shop now days for this reason, but the two shops I've used in the past 15 years both took the time to show me their work bench. I usually ask in a sneaky way to see them in action with my reg when I have it "looked" at. ;)

[Peter_C]

Lets take a mechanical device for instance. Could be a car. EVERY bolt has a torque spec. If you expect someone to hand torque everything you are going to be sadly mistaken. Most just hit the lug nutss to whatever their impact gun can generate. Others use torque sticks and some actually break out a torque wrench. Half the cars built today you could not get a torque wrench onto the spark plug socket and get an accurate torque without pulling the engine.

How accurate is a torque wrench? I own 4 torque wrenches with three of them from Snap-on Tools (That is around $700 in torque wrenches). I couldn't tell you if they are within accuracy specs unless I send them out and have them tested. That might get done once in their lifetime.

So how does this pertain to scuba? Well if you "expect" your reg tech to torque everything I think you will be sad to learn they rarely use their torque wrenches. They use the torque wrenches to learn the "feeling" then proceed with this knowledge wrench in hand.

I just installed a new burst disk in my tank (Slowly doing all of them as they get used)...yup it got torqued. There is a torque spec for the tank neck valve. The tank valve itself was only hand tightened into the neck, which is what we find works great. Would I torque a hose or other fitting? Nope! Don't worry I will not be working on your regs only my own.

[kgault]

I just saw a post from a tech in which he said that although the manufacturers state recommended torques when assembling regulators, techs don't use torque wrenches when they are working. He was very clear regarding the general disregard for torqueing specs. He even stated that in his training class, the instructor told the students that no one uses torque wrenches in the real world.

Is this true? It's scary to me that manufacturer's specs would be widely ignored. Should I be concerned? Should I question my LDS about whether their techs bother using torque wrenches?

When I became a tech I bought a bar style torque wrench. After over 10 years, I now have 4 different torque wrenches with different ranges and applications. I have a 5th arriving sometime this week for really low torque applications (10 inlb).

Most of the other techs who worked at the same shops that I do, never used the torque wrench even when it was close to hand. Some of these techs did not continue working after repeated damage to customers regs from over-tightening. I still get many Oceanic and USD 2nd stages with cracks in the cases where the inlets get inserted, that were last serviced by someone else.

Some regulators are not sensitive to damage by incorrectly torquing, while others can be easily damaged. It is a rare regulator service class that brings out the torque wrench, as most regulators are only assembled hand tight during the classes.

I would be worried by a technician that claimed to never need a torque wrench when working on customers regulators.

Keith

[HenrikBP]

I couldn't tell you if they are within accuracy specs unless I send them out and have them tested. That might get done once in their lifetime.

<snip>

... they rarely use their torque wrenches. They use the torque wrenches to learn the "feeling" then proceed with this knowledge wrench in hand.

Torque wrenches should be sent out for calibration at regular intervals - I know ... they usually aren't ...

However, don't let anyone kid you into thinking they can accurately torque a fastener by feel. We (yes, me too ...) can get away with hand "torquing" some fasteners such as port plugs and hoses, 'cause really - they just need to *not* come loose. So as long as we err on the the side of caution and don't over-tighten we're ok. But for critical fasteners there's no way I'd do it - or accept it done - without an accurate torque wrench.

... which is exactly why I'm gradually learning to wrench my own :)

Henrik

[fireted]

I always use a t-wrench with breaking down a reg to see if the last tech/customer did the job correctly. When putting everything back together same thing, I use the T-wrench and not the torque value on the work order. IT covers my butt legally and if the MFG. ever questions the service done I have a leg to fall back on.

Sure this is a huge "Err on the side of caution", but there is no really safe and accurate way to "GUESS" at the torque settings.

As for torquing the hose, wrench snug is good enough for me, seeing that most of my customers will change there hose routing.

[Nemrod]

I do but in point of fact do not recall EVER seeing a scuba store employee use anything much more than pliers and a screw driver or hammer much less a torque wrench or know how to use it.

N

[Nemrod]

How accurate is a torque wrench? I own 4 torque wrenches with three of them from Snap-on Tools (That is around $700 in torque wrenches). I couldn't tell you if they are within accuracy specs unless I send them out and have them tested. That might get done once in their lifetime.




Many engine/machine/aviation service shops have torque gauges and sometimes they will let you run your wrench on their gauge. However, you can make your own by using a beam (in one foot increments or multiples thereof and a known weight) to at least check top, middle and bottom for small wrenches, large ones it gets kind to be a challenge.

N

[Peter_C]

Many engine/machine/aviation service shops have torque gauges and sometimes they will let you run your wrench on their gauge. However, you can make your own by using a beam (in one foot increments or multiples thereof and a known weight) to at least check top, middle and bottom for small wrenches, large ones it gets kind to be a challenge.

N
I have access to one and have tested my bigger torque wrenches 3/8" and 1/2" against it. Mine are fairly accurate.

Over tightening is one of the largest problems out there. If a little is good more is better right? Wrong! I pulled a set of spark plugs installed a week ago from another shop and had to get out my long handled ratchet. Waaaay over tightened. Brass on a regulator is not nearly as forgiving.

[Tortuga68]

I watched a boat mechanic install spark plugs in my engine and asked him why he was not using a torque wrench (steel plugs in an aluminum head with a spec of 17 ft-lb)

As a (car) dealer technician I would've changed hundreds of spark plugs in alloy head engines and never used a torque wrench. Nor did any other tech I know of in my 22 years in the automotive industry. Angle torque works

[HenrikBP]

Sure this is a huge "Err on the side of caution", but there is no really safe and accurate way to "GUESS" at the torque settings.

Don't know if you meant to do that - but "semi-quoting" what I wrote out of context put an entirely different spin on my meaning ... ? In the end though it seems we agree.


Angle torque works

Only as long as the crush washer is new ... ;)

Henrik

[Tortuga68]

Not all spark plugs have crush washers...and angle torque still works for used crush washers, you just need a different angle

[Divedoggie]

We always use torque wrenches when reassembling regs. The step by step manual for each specific reg sits open on the repair bench and every detail is followed to spec, even if we are very familiar with the reg.
Just rebuilt 2 Apeks ATX 200s and a Zeagle FH 6 last night. I can't imagine estimating 45 in/lbs.

[awap]

I have no problem with angle torque. That is what I use on port plugs and hoses after I used my torque wrench to determine the angles with both new and used o-rings. And if a scuba tech told me he was using angle torque and could explain how and where he found the spec I could go with that. Unfortunately, many scuba techs understand torque only as an emotion.

[Tortuga68]

I have no problem with angle torque. That is what I use on port plugs and hoses after I used my torque wrench to determine the angles with both new and used o-rings

Torque and angle torque are fairly misunderstood concepts... clamping force doesn't apply to all fasteners, not does torque to yield (stretch), which is what angle torque really is - a combination or torque plus angle (not the angle that is required to reach a specific torque, which depends on a lot of variables)

However this probably isn't the place to go into it further. Suffice to say a torque wrench isn't really required for a lot of reg servicing applications, although it may be necessary for some people and/or some applications

[Shcubasteve]

We always use torque wrenches when reassembling regs. The step by step manual for each specific reg sits open on the repair bench and every detail is followed to spec, even if we are very familiar with the reg.
.

Thats exactly how I was taught to service customers regs. Still follow it as a matter of safety for everyone.


. Suffice to say a torque wrench isn't really required for a lot of reg servicing applications, although it may be necessary for some people and/or some applications

For personal equipment maybe, but if a customer trusts you enough to service their gear, it should be done to spec.

[Doubler]

Unless you calibrate the torque wrench at it's required interval or after you drop it you are wasting your time using it. For a bar type wrench if you torque something clockwise to 15 in. lbs. you must also do a torque to 15. in lbs counter clockwise, this keeps the bar tension balanced. Checking an applied torque when you get home is basically a waste of time. The torque will relax based on material, grease, oil, stretch, friction, oring squeeze etc. At work we waste our time yearly during an annual inspection checking breakaway torques. After ten years of doing these inspections this was the first year we had one weapon whose values were all within breakaway spec, usually 1/3 fail. The one with zero errors had originally been built using a German self calibrating electronic torque wrench, others using the same torque wrench failed at the same rate as mechanical torque wrenches. Weird. The only true way to accomplish a valid test requires thousands of dollars of equipment. Engineers spend hours and companies lots of money to determine proper torques for a reason, techs should use them.

[Mr Carcharodon]

None of the three shops in my area use torque wrenches. Two of the three broadly disregard the manufacturer’s service manuals. The third technician maintains a veil of secrecy about the procedures he performs which inspires no confidence at all. Since swivel nut over torquing has lead to catastrophic failures of first stages due the swivel separating from the regulator body it would be hard to say there is not a potential safety issue.

But what is the technicians incentive to do it right? After all in most cases when they break parts due to their failure to follow instructions they will not pay for the broken parts. Their customers will or they will make a warranty claim. And since most of the work is done outside of the light of day there is little pressure against incompetent or shoddy work.

Really everyone should read their manufacturer’s service manual. Most of them are available on the web. Ask your tech about his planned service, and see for yourself how well it matches what the manufacturer recommends. You will be shocked.

[Dmdusn]

I watched a boat mechanic install spark plugs in my engine and asked him why he was not using a torque wrench (steel plugs in an aluminum head with a spec of 17 ft-lb). He said he had done it so much he didn't need one. I checked the torque on all the plugs when I got home. Torque ranged from about 10 ft-lb to almost 25 ft-lb. He lost a customer.

Dive shops that do not have a torque wrench definitely do not use them. Ask your shop to see their torque wrenches.
Not sure if I'm the minority here, but I've never once used a torque wrench on a spark plug. Overkill if you ask me. Two fingers on the end of the ratchet, snug it up, done.

[halocline]

These days my car uses a lot of torque-to-yield single use bolts; I suspect lots of cars do. The head bolts on my car, and the engine mount bolts, are TTY. You go whatever the spec is and 90o over or something similar. You think any decent mechanic doesn't use a torque wrench in situations like that?

[Peter_C]

Not sure if I'm the minority here, but I've never once used a torque wrench on a spark plug. Overkill if you ask me. Two fingers on the end of the ratchet, snug it up, done.
I recently made my employee, who is new to the automotive field, although a born natural, look up and torque a set of spark plugs so he could "feel" what it should be like. He has also torqued different bolts at times on his own just to learn what "X" foot pounds fells like.

[Dmdusn]

These days my car uses a lot of torque-to-yield single use bolts; I suspect lots of cars do. The head bolts on my car, and the engine mount bolts, are TTY. You go whatever the spec is and 90o over or something similar. You think any decent mechanic doesn't use a torque wrench in situations like that?
No, I think mechanics guess at everything. Thanks for the snark.

[tyesai]

Torque wrenches are overrated. Any decent mechanic knows that when a small nut specifies a light torque of 20 inch pounds that barely tight is good enough, and when a large nut needs 1000 inch pounds you need a big wrench and all your back, maybe your buddies back too.

That said I use them at work on the aircraft, but there was also a time when aircraft mechanics, at least in the old C-130 world rarely used them. But I always did and do at work and thats my official answer.

I've never even considered using a torque wrench on a car or motorcycle, at least not for changing plugs, tires, oil, ect; Maybe if I was putting together a motor, but even then I've helped rebuild Harleys ( I hate them, but free beer is free beer ) I don't remember using a torque wrench. ( we might have, it was free beer, I drank a lot back then )

I don't know much about regs, and have to help tear one apart and put it back together to see how I felt about not using a torque wrench, but I'd probably refer to my first statement.

[saxplayer1004]

I was the poster in question. My service manual states until metal touches metal. It's to prevent stripping of threads, and warping of stuff.
O-rings are there for a reason. As stated by a bunch of other people in here, it's usually to prevent OVER tightening. When you're tightening something metal to metal, it's real easy to over-tighten it, but it's pretty difficult to under-tighten it. If it's under at all, it'll spin freely. Snug works, snug is NOT wrenched down. With normal allen keys, I use the shorter end to tighten. If you can put more torque on the short end of an allen key with your bare hands, well the more power to you. You do it enough, and you can feel when it's right.
Yoke is a lot different than DIN, and usually require some funky wrenches to get that nut tight. That's the one nut we actually put a torque wrench on just because of the way it works. It needs to spin freely but still be stable, so we do use it there. On port plugs, hoses, DIN adapters etc, there's no need. That being said. One of the shops here is a VERY highly regarded repair shop. I know they use torque wrenches, a. because I've seen them, and b. when they work on my Poseidons I can't get the port plugs or hoses off with normal allen keys and small wrenches. So I guess mine are under the recommended torque, but I've never had anything blow out because of it, and when I'm diving, if all of a sudden I have a hose blow, or need to add an extra inflater, I don't want to have to fight my first stages or need to bring a vice and torque wrench to get a port plug out *Yes I did have to vice the first stage and get a long allen key to get these port plugs out*.
Once you tighten everything to manufacturer specs you realize how tight it actually is. You also notice that one of the things going around the cave community was finger tightening second stages. They are under the same IP as the port plugs and hoses on the first stages. As well as the turret bolts if they have them. If finger tight will hold a regulator on it's hose, then a smidge tighter with an allen key will hold a port plug in

[Max Speed]

Consider that Armalite had MORE loose carrier keys on new rifles AFTER they began requiring their techs to use torque wrenches on the two allen screws.

It seems that human "feel" for the correct torque can produce better results than a design engineer's reference book. Especially when that engineer may have never seen or used the finished product. Trust your "feel" and common sense first. Use a torque wrench as a crutch or backup to your own good judgement. The accuracy of a torque wrench in actually setting bolt stretch is not nearly what you expect! Hence, use of angle torqueing or bolt stretch measurements for critical applications.....

[LeadTurn_SD]

I was the poster in question. My service manual states until metal touches metal. It's to prevent stripping of threads, and warping of stuff.....

For servicing Apex, Zeagle, Mares and maybe other diaphragm first stages, when tightening the diaphgram clamp ring, "metal to metal" probably does trump torque specs, and is what I do... But this is because of the possibility of false-high torque readings from friction of the diaphragm against the mating surface of the clamp ring.... But if you can't achieve metal to metal when tightening with a "reasonable" amount of torque, you need to step back and recheck that the diaphragm is correctly seated, etc.

There are applications where "metal to metal", or "snug" by feel instead of torqued to "spec" is just not good practice. Turret retaining bolts and yolk bolts spring to mind. Especially with turret bolts, there have been catastrophic failures (entire turret separating underwater) as a result of failure of the bolt. The failures were most often caused by repeated overtightening (not using a torque wrench).

So, for many applications, I'm just fine for tightening by "feel"... but for critical parts: torque wrench. Both for scuba, and certain engine / transmission repairs.

Best wishes.

[saxplayer1004]

Again, it's by repeated OVER tightening though. When we took the class our instructor had us to it with the torque wrench to get the feel, then had us put it on where we thought felt right. We were always about 5-10lbs short with the exception of one guy who felt the need to muscle it. 5-10lbs short is not going to cause anything from overtightening, and they were still on there pretty good and weren't coming off any time soon. They have their place for sure, but if the torque wrenches are to keep you from over tightening it's a lot safer to be a few pounds short, than on something like a tranny where they are often to make sure they are on tight enough. We do most of our own mechanical stuff on our cars and to get some of those bolts up to spec, you have to crank on em pretty hard... Some like plugs not so much, but a few of those bolts are on there pretty good

[HenrikBP]

Consider that Armalite had MORE loose carrier keys on new rifles AFTER they began requiring their techs to use torque wrenches on the two allen screws.

It seems that human "feel" for the correct torque can produce better results than a design engineer's reference book. Especially when that engineer may have never seen or used the finished product. Trust your "feel" and common sense first. Use a torque wrench as a crutch or backup to your own good judgement. The accuracy of a torque wrench in actually setting bolt stretch is not nearly what you expect! Hence, use of angle torqueing or bolt stretch measurements for critical applications.....

... and what exactly do you think is accomplished by torquing a bolt to specs if not appropriate bolt stretch/clamping force ... :shakehead:

Henrik

[Tortuga68]

Like Max said in your quote, the reading on a torque wrench and the clamping force of a fastener are not the same thing. For the same torque reading the clamping force can vary wildy, for example due to contamination or lubrication of the threads

[SCUBASailor]

I'm really glad I posted this thread. It's been very informative. The surprising thing to me is the general consensus that the real danger is from over tightening rather than under tightening. To saxplayer, I'm glad you posted, it gave me more insight into your original post. I work in an electrical environment, so to not be certain that we stay within specs can be a huge mistake. In my line of work, it pays to be OCD. That's why I was surprised regarding torqueing.

[D_B]

haven't read the hole thread but I have a comment about the torque wrench ... Our factory spec engine repairs use torque angle for head bolts and such, and not torque specs
oops, I see that Tourtuga has it covered :blush:

[captain]

I have built racing engines and the surest way to correctly tighten a connecting rod bolt is by measuring stretch. Rod bolts are stretched .007. The recommend torque on a clean lubricated 3/8" rod bolt is 45 ft/#. It takes a whole lot more torque than that to get to .007" stretch. So much so that I had to make a special wrench to be able to read the stretch gauge and tighten the bolt at the same time, a normal length wrench wouldn't cut it.

That said about the only thing I use a torque wrench on are main bearing caps, head and manifold bolts and wheel lugs.

I use a dab of locking compound and snug on the turret bolt on my MK V.

[saxplayer1004]

I'm a mechanical engineering... bout as dangerous as you electrical guru's if we do something wrong. Oh, uh sorry boss but that bridge girder's factor of safety was only .2 so that dump truck just fell through. woops.

The dedicated repair shops, Airtech in Raleigh for example, have to use torque wrenches just because that's what they do. They only service gear, and they are wicked good at it. I have seen some of their techs dive before and on their own gear they don't use the wrenches. Just not needed, but on their own gear it's no liability. They charge a lot of money to do service work for the average diver and the average diver isn't moving port plugs and hoses around, so they torque to spec. Trust me, they are a BEAR to get off, same when the yoke and DIN plugs are torqued to spec. If the yoke or din screws are too loose they'll blow when you pressurize the system usually. Not a big deal and I had it happen to me once when I was using a Yoke adapter. Somehow the bolt got caught and it got spun around a few too many times to loosen. Heard gas escaping. Took adapter off, screwed it back in finger tight, put it on and it was good for the next 5 dives of the day *was doing OW training babysitting duty*. The actual yoke bolts are a bit more dangerous since they will tend to shoot the 1st stage at the back of your head, hence why I'll actually use them for that, but we don't take those off very often, and it's never in the field.

[bracko]

Some torque specs are more critical than others. The old scubapro MK5 had a brass turret bolt that was easily damaged by over tightening; later MK20s had a yoke bolt that could damage the body if they were over tightened. In both cases SP changed the part to make the reg more "idiot proof" for servicing. It's pretty scary when the scuba gear companies insist that consumers leave the servicing to the certified "experts" and then consistently modify the regs because they lack faith in the ability of those "experts."

Other torque specs, like for port plugs, are not crucial and nobody I've ever seen uses a torque wrench to install those.

i don't think it is at all. it's a design process to innovate, then simplify.

even if you have a good qualified tech putting together your gear, it's inevitable he will damage something, some time. when the ramifications of that are possible death to a user, the companies designing the gear are going to take notice.

so the designers are going to have to make a decision. design a testing rig to test for these possible failures, or innovate and simplify.

testing rigs are expensive and obsolescence is a problem...

[Lake Muroc Diver]

It has been mentioned in this string, some techs can not be trusted to even use the correct tool. My poor computer had a visit to the dive shop for a problem and the eventual outcome was, they only changed the battery. (Which I had already changed).
The shop tech busted the slot out by using a small driver and not a coin slot driver. They also gouged the side of the puck getting it out of the mount.
I always send regs to the factory, ATOMIC Aquatics, since I do not trust the folks in the back room any more. I am a 36 year technician for a government agency that is known for precision.
If my techs skipped the torque wrench they would get a day with out pay.

[tflaris]

I just saw a post from a tech in which he said that although the manufacturers state recommended torques when assembling regulators, techs don't use torque wrenches when they are working. He was very clear regarding the general disregard for torqueing specs. He even stated that in his training class, the instructor told the students that no one uses torque wrenches in the real world.

Is this true? It's scary to me that manufacturer's specs would be widely ignored. Should I be concerned? Should I question my LDS about whether their techs bother using torque wrenches?


They are recommended by the manufacturer ScubaPro when repairing their regs. Yes I do.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[burna]

For some things, the application of the correct torque is important for others it is far less so. Manufacturers need quote torque specs for some things as a guide as to how tight it should be. It doesn't mean you should necessarily use a torque wrench on every bolt or fitting. An experienced technician would know which ones are less critical and how much to tighten them without the use of a torque wrench.

If I saw someone actually using a torque wrench while fitting spark plugs (with the exception of an aircraft engine) then I would be seriously concerned whether they really know what they are doing.

The wheel nuts on your car are supposed to be torqued as well. Does anyone here carry a torque wrench in the back of their car?

A torque wrench is only as good as it's last calibration and its accuracy varies with temperature anyway.

[awap]

For some things, the application of the correct torque is important for others it is far less so. Manufacturers need quote torque specs for some things as a guide as to how tight it should be. It doesn't mean you should necessarily use a torque wrench on every bolt or fitting. An experienced technician would know which ones are less critical and how much to tighten them without the use of a torque wrench.

If I saw someone actually using a torque wrench while fitting spark plugs (with the exception of an aircraft engine) then I would be seriously concerned whether they really know what they are doing.

The wheel nuts on your car are supposed to be torqued as well. Does anyone here carry a torque wrench in the back of their car?

A torque wrench is only as good as it's last calibration and its accuracy varies with temperature anyway.

I always use a torque wrench on my spark plugs and my lug nuts. Would you like to explain why that is a bad practice???

[Tortuga68]

He didn't say it was bad practice; he said that he would perceive it as a possible indication of lack of experience/confidence, and implied it wasn't necessary

For steel rims, it's not. Some alloy wheels - eg 1980s BMW, 70Nm - really need to be torqued as there's a fine line between not tight enough and warping. Plugs, well we already discussed that earlier in the thread

If you want to carry a torque wrench in your trunk, and torque your plugs, bully for you. No-one is telling you not to do it



...a coin slot driver

...you mean like, a coin?

[knowone]

It is unkind to watch people dislocating their bodies trying to wrench wheel nuts off that have been rattled on without thinking of stepping on the wrench.
These are even over torqued by hand.

How is it that manufacturers are so lax that they cannot design an inlet bolt that bottoms out as it makes contact externally?
Because the spec is not so precise?

All by hand except inlet bolt, swivel bolt and diaphram bodies.
Torque shmorque.

Are we talkin new, sh or pre stretched parts.

And again forget closin em, how many noodles over torque em openin em makin damage.
Because some of that stuff needs cracking open not twisting.
With softer things than brass and not those stoopid C spanners.:stooges:


I laughed and then realised I made a coin slot driver for a Drager double hose, which looks wrong without the umlaut.

[Lake Muroc Diver]

Tortuga 68 Yeah a coin slot screw can be opened with a coin. (Quarter usually) But there is a tool that is designed to keep your digits from being abused.
It is not set up for some monkey with any old screwdriver.

[Lake Muroc Diver]

One more thing, as we beat this dead horse.
There is a difference between a Technician and a "Hack" mechanic. If you think your wrist is calibrated then you are a hack.
If you keep your precision tools calibrated and use them IAW the technical manuals, there is no question about assembly inconsistencies.
I have alum heads on my cars and have never had a problem because they get a torque wrench as designed. On the other hand I have had to helicoil spark plug holes, and seen warped sealing surfaces due to the poor workmanship hack job in some "experts shop" that my buddies had taken their toys to. Not always critical, but always worth the extra effort. Sorry if I offended anyone. Just my experience and my humble opinion. (and too much caffeine).
I do not but the no torque wrench required.

[halocline]

i don't think it is at all. it's a design process to innovate, then simplify.

even if you have a good qualified tech putting together your gear, it's inevitable he will damage something, some time. when the ramifications of that are possible death to a user,....

First and foremost, regulator failure should NEVER cause death in a diver. What do you think the air sharing training, buddy system, etc... are for?

I will agree that in the case of the MK5 turret bolt going from brass to SS, it's a design evolution, as the SS is simply a better material for the job. In the case of the MK20 yoke retainer, the modified part was no better than the original, it just had a step machined in it which would prevent it from damaging the reg in the case of severe over-torquing. I mean severe, not slight. Only an incompetent tech would tighten that yoke retainer to the point of failure, and since there were a few failures....

The crux of the problem is that the industry claims that servicing must be left to "professional" techs, yet the training for such a position consists of one or two days of no-fail seminar, for which the only entrance pre-req is employment at a dealer.

[burna]

He didn't say it was bad practice; he said that he would perceive it as a possible indication of lack of experience/confidence, and implied it wasn't necessary

If you want to carry a torque wrench in your trunk, and torque your plugs, bully for you. No-one is telling you not to do it


Exactly.



One more thing, as we beat this dead horse.
There is a difference between a Technician and a "Hack" mechanic. If you think your wrist is calibrated then you are a hack.

Utter bullsh!t! If you really think torquing plugs is necessary then you have no idea why you are doing it.


If you keep your precision tools calibrated and use them IAW the technical manuals, there is no question about assembly inconsistencies.
I have alum heads on my cars and have never had a problem because they get a torque wrench as designed. On the other hand I have had to helicoil spark plug holes, and seen warped sealing surfaces due to the poor workmanship hack job in some "experts shop" that my buddies had taken their toys to. Not always critical, but always worth the extra effort. Sorry if I offended anyone. Just my experience and my humble opinion. (and too much caffeine).
I do not but the no torque wrench required.Applying the correct bolt tension to a cylinder head bolt is worlds away from tightening a spark plug. The main purpose of torquing head bolts is to apply even pressure to the head gasket as less pressure on one side could result in blowing the gasket. Getting the exact tension (within reason) is not as important as getting the same tension.

The idea with a spark plug is to provide just enough force to seat the sealing surfaces and compress the gasket (if fitted) to; a) provide a seal, and b)to stop the plug from working itself loose.

You can actually feel when this happens especially with a plug that is fitted with a gasket. An experienced tech does not need a torque wrench and if they do it shows they don't really know what they are supposed to be achieving.

I have never tensioned a spark plug, have never known of someone who has and have never seen one stripped through over tightening alloy head or not. I have seen them stripped from not removing them to check often enough and large carbon deposits have built up on the base of the plug which has stripped the alloy head when removed.

As Tortuga68 said, if you want to use one, then use it, but if you are not a qualified technician then I wouldn't be canning one who knows when to use a torque wrench and when not too.

That's my 2 ft/lbs worth!

[Tortuga68]

What he said, plus:


If you think your wrist is calibrated then you are a hack... I have alum heads on my cars and have never had a problem because they get a torque wrench as designed... I do not buy the no torque wrench required

As we discussed earlier in the thread before you arrived, angle torque works perfectly well for spark plugs; therefore there is no need for a torque wrench. I would estimate that I have changed about 10,000 spark plugs in my life and never, ever used a torque wrench (well, maybe once) OR damaged a thread as a result of not using a torque wrench

Not that it has much to do with the thread topic either way