Night dive

[jrl5549]

What gear would you think is minimum for a night dive?

[Rainer]

A bathing suit, but really, if the area is a bit secluded, even that's not needed.

[NAUI AL]

A light.

[NAUI AL]

Another light.

[Kingpatzer]

a tank is a good idea.

[Kingpatzer]

Ok, serious answer:

Whatever gear is appropriate for the dive site during the day, plus one primary and one backup light If you're diving from your own boat, a light or strobe to hang in the water.

[bwade]

at least one regulator, preferrably attached to the tank ;)

[Dirty-Dog]

The same gear you'd use to dive that site in the day (and you really ought to dive that site in theday, so you're familiar with it before the lights go out). Add a good dive light, plus a backup light. Also add night time signaling devices such as a strobe, glowsticks and a whistle.

[PatW]

Besides the light, if you are diving with others, it is nice to have a little blinking light or a glow stick on you. It helps your buddy keep track of you.

[bkfawcett]

Any concerns about marker light colors (green = okay, red = need help)? And would a blinking marker on my tank become annoying to my dive buddy after awhile...?

[NC Wreck Diver]

Any concerns about marker light colors (green = okay, red = need help)? And would a blinking marker on my tank become annoying to my dive buddy after awhile...?

Mine does. It's a big Princeton Tec Strobe. But I like to be seen on our deep night dives. So should you!

Safe diving to you.

[Crush]

A few comments on gear and practices.

Start night diving with easy dives. Start your night dive with a safety drill (out-of-air).

If diving from shore, one omnidirectional lamp can be used to mark your entrance/exit point. Two lamps can be used as well, placing one close to the water and the other further back so that the line between the lights leads straight into (and out of) the water.

I have some strobes that I used to hook onto my tank for night dives. I have found that they are unnecessary and I don't use them anymore. Your buddy's flashlight will be plenty obvious to you.

If you lose your buddy, shade your light against your body or with your hand - finding their light will be far easier when your light is diminished. Don't turn off your flashlight as there is a very small (but non-zero) chance that it might not turn on again.

Carry at least one spare light. Personally I carry two. Have at least one in a very easy to get to place, not buried in a pocket.

If you need to deploy a backup flashlight, switch it on before you un-clip it. That way, if you drop it, you will see where it went.

Most of your hand-signals won't be useful on a night dive. Decide ahead of time what two signals will be used for "OK" and "out of air." A long, slow circle usually means "OK" while a rapid movement of the flashlight back and forth means "out of air." A slow movement of the flashlight back and forth means usually means "look here." Don't give the "out of air" instead of "look here." To thumb a dive, get someone's attention, give your thumbs-up, and illuminate the thumb/your hand with a flashlight. They should respond with a circular OK.

While diving, query your buddies by shining your flashlight spot onto theirs and tracing a circle for OK. They should respond with a circle in the same place for OK.

If you stick a flashlight into the bottom of your rescue sausage at the surface the sausage will light up nicely, making you highly visible.

[diver 85]

same as a day dive--except for a (good) lite.....& a backup lesser one....& possibly throw in a cyalume stick...

[Tortuga68]

would a blinking marker on my tank become annoying to my dive buddy after a while...?

Assuming I was your buddy, and if by a while you mean 2 minutes, then yes

Um, what was the question again? Oh yeah. A light, or a buddy with a light. Or a full moon & good viz



Most of your hand-signals won't be useful on a night dive. Decide ahead of time what two signals will be used for "OK" and "out of air." A long, slow circle usually means "OK" while a rapid movement of the flashlight back and forth means "out of air."

Hand signals work fine if you shine your light on your hand first. And rapid back and forth usually means 'problem' not OOA

[Crush]

Hand signals work fine if you shine your light on your hand first. And rapid back and forth usually means 'problem' not OOA

Depends where you learn signals. An NACD instructor told me that in a cave it meant out of air.

[Tortuga68]

So we're doing a night cave dive now?

[Crush]

So we're doing a night cave dive now?

Tortuga68, you are PADI certified. I believe that PADI teaches that drawing a circle means "OK," waving the torch up/down means "attention," and a rapid horizontal motion means "emergency" or "out of air." My previous definitions of the signals were consistent with the agency your were trained by, save that my version of "attention" was slow and direction-unspecified while PADI's is slow and vertical.

You are welcome to night dive in a cave. I even have a weight belt that you can borrow.

[Guba]

In my circle, we seem to have developed a pattern for personal lights (I'm not talking about primary and secondary lights, but the ones attached to individual divers). We've pretty much agreed that strobe lights were to be used to mark the downlines (mooring lines, anchor line, hanglines and/or hookah systems), while solid lights such as glow sticks or battery powered markers would identify individual divers. If possible, we even use different colors to further identify each other when diving in multiple buddy pairs. Seems to work for us.
As for underwater signals, this site may be of interest: Scuba Diving Communications, Underwater Hand Signals - Dayo Scuba, Orlando, Florida (http://www.scubadiver.cc/handsignals/uwcommunications.htm)

[Damselfish]

I agree with putting strobes on lines, not divers. It's not exactly a standard but pretty common, and can mislead people on the boat location when there are divers scattered around an area. Plus blinking lights on divers are annoying to some people. So best to stick to constant on if you're using marker lights. Color does not really matter much or have any particular meaning in this context.

[Tortuga68]

I even have a weight belt that you can borrow

Mm, no thanks!



a rapid movement of the flashlight back and forth means "out of air."


rapid back and forth usually means 'problem' not OOA


a rapid horizontal motion means "emergency" or "out of air"

That was were we diverged, not on the training agency

[Crush]

That was were we diverged, not on the training agency

I was under the impression that PADI referred to the rapid motion as "emergency" or OOA while "problem" was the same as getting someone's attention which was signaled with slow movements. A "problem" is not an "emergency" but it can certainly become one.

[Tortuga68]

You said:


rapid movement of the flashlight back and forth means 'out of air'

I disagreed

Now we're debating PADI standards and the semantics of emergency vs problem for some reason

[Crush]

You said:



I disagreed

Now we're debating PADI standards and the semantics of emergency vs problem for some reason

I am not debating PADI standards - I am merely pointing out that you should be more familiar with the signals used by your agency before you tell someone that they are incorrect. If you were, say, a NAUI diver I would have made a similar point.

FWIW, your usage of "semantics" is incorrect. "Nuance" might be more appropriate.

[Lee Taylor]

Video I took July 4t. Take a bright light and a back up light

CeL3I8ONLPo

[TC]

Twwwweeeetttttttt.

http://pediatricinc.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/penalty.jpg

That will be a 15 yard penalty for unsportsmanlike posting.

Please remember that basic scuba is a flame free zone.

Unsportsmanlike posts have been removed.

Unsportsmanlike posters will be removed next if they continue.

[Crush]

Video I took July 4t. Take a bright light and a back up light

CeL3I8ONLPo

Nice video!

[jrl5549]

mpetryk do you (or any one) htink a bright focused beam is better than a bright general light?
Did a Moderator really have to remove a post from my thread about night diving gear?
I am thinking about a shallow shore dive if the moon is full might it be bright under water 20ft or less?

[Crush]

Did a Moderator really have to remove a post from my thread about night diving gear?

If you have any concerns, PM the mod and they will explain why they did what they did. The mods are very good at responding. It may take them up to a day to get back to you, though.


mpetryk do you (or any one) htink a bright focused beam is better than a bright general light?

I prefer a focused beam - spotting objects at a distance is easier with them. If you are buying, why not try out both types?


I am thinking about a shallow shore dive if the moon is full might it be bright under water 20ft or less?

The moon will make zero difference underwater, but it might encourage fish to be near the surface to spawn (or not) depending on the time of year. At the surface the moon might help somewhat.

If this is your first night dive, shallow is good.

[Damselfish]

mpetryk do you (or any one) htink a bright focused beam is better than a bright general light?
It depends what you're doing. Some people like bright focused lights for signaling in lower viz conditions. In conditions like tropical diving in clear water, they're great for stuff like looking into holes or under ledges. Wider softer beams are nice to illuminate a larger area in clear water without freaking out the critters you're trying to see. Brighter isn't always better.

I am thinking about a shallow shore dive if the moon is full might it be bright under water 20ft or less?
I wouldn't intentionally head out for a night dive without light(s), but you can dive by moonlight in the right conditions. I wouldn't call it bright but the moonlight can make enough of a difference.

[jrl5549]

I was more suprised someone in this friendly question thread would get so worked up I am sure the moderator made the correct call.

[TSandM]

In clear water, a smaller and less focused light can be a better way to spot critters. I know that my 21W HID light is massive overkill, and drives a lot of things into hiding before you can find them. On the other hand, a less focused light is more difficult to use as a communications device.

In murky water, the need to communicate and the desirability of being able to be visible through more water, if people get separated, drives the equation toward an intense, focused light, IMO.

One thing no one has mentioned: If you have to do a direct ascent in the dark, you may not be able to use any kind of light gradient in the water for orientation. I have seen a VERY strong diver get disoriented in midwater in the dark (wasn't me!) and do some yo-yoing on ascent. Having an SMB and spool, and knowing how to deploy it at depth, can provide an enormous amount of orientation information and security to a team that has a long time to spend in midwater.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Tank lights ... why? If you can see your buddy's tank light, it means they are in front of you. In most cases, you would be better off side-by-side ... in which case a tank light isn't really very helpful.

Strobes ... might make you feel that you're more visible, but they're a distraction to the divers around you. Strobes are more useful affixed to the upline, to help you locate it in the dark. If you need to attach a light to your body, please use a glowstick or similar device.

Focused vs no-focused light ... depends on the water you're diving in, and whether or not you wish to use the light for communication. An unfocused beam is really nice in relatively clear water, as it lights up a wider area and makes it easier to see critters. In more turbid water, it's useless, as the unfocused beam not only won't travel very far, but it'll light up every particle in the water around you ... creating that "high beams in a snowstorm" effect. Choose a light appropriate to the conditions you're diving in.

Rapid back and forth signal ... means "emergency". Some people will assume it means OOA because that's the worst-case emergency and the most time-dependent one to have to deal with. But what it really means is "I need you over here RIGHT NOW!" The emergency may have nothing to do with air.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Tortuga68]

Rapid back and forth signal ... means "emergency". Some people will assume it means OOA because that's the worst-case emergency and the most time-dependent one to have to deal with. But what it really means is "I need you over here RIGHT NOW!" The emergency may have nothing to do with air

That was my point earlier in the thread, before someone started talking about PADI

[Crush]

That was my point earlier in the thread, before someone started talking about PADI

Attention != Emergency

Edit: "!=" means "not equal to."

OOA is a subset of Emergency

The confusion which I introduced in post #12 of this thread was clarified by me in post #17. The attempts to confuse signals with certification agencies were not mine, Tortuga.

[Tortuga68]

Well it sure wasn't me because I never mentioned any agencies

Anyway, let's drop it before I get moderated again

[NWGratefulDiver]

Attention != Emergency


Not in the definition of the terms as I learned and teach them.

"Attention" typically means you want your dive buddy to look at you for some reason ... and often has nothing to do with a problem. Perhaps I want to stop and am signaling my intent. Or perhaps I found something interesting I want to show you. The signal for "Attention" is a slow back and forth.

"Emergency" means "swim to me" ... and indicates a problem that requires assistance. It demands an immediate response. This is the rapid back and forth signal.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Rainer]

And that's exactly what he said: attention does not equal emergency.


Not in the definition of the terms as I learned and teach them.

"Attention" typically means you want your dive buddy to look at you for some reason ... and often has nothing to do with a problem. Perhaps I want to stop and am signaling my intent. Or perhaps I found something interesting I want to show you. The signal for "Attention" is a slow back and forth.

"Emergency" means "swim to me" ... and indicates a problem that requires assistance. It demands an immediate response. This is the rapid back and forth signal.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[NWGratefulDiver]

And that's exactly what he said: attention does not equal emergency.

Pardon the confusion ... I wasn't aware != meant "does not equal"

... must be a texting thing ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Crush]

Pardon the confusion ... I wasn't aware != meant "does not equal"

... must be a texting thing ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I was about to point that out - my bad - it is a math/computer thing. "!=" means "not equal to." I have edited the confusing post.

[Damselfish]

Tank lights ... why? If you can see your buddy's tank light, it means they are in front of you. In most cases, you would be better off side-by-side ... in which case a tank light isn't really very helpful.

some ops, for better or worse, require them.

and side by side actually isn't better in many cases (like parts of nearly all the dives I do, personally.) Anyplace you're swimming along say a wall or reef or whatever feature, side by side means one person can't see what you're there for very well - they'll be further away from it and have someone blocking their view. Yes, it's equally easy to see each other if you're side by side, but if one person can't see anything else, what's the point?

[TSandM]

Well, when folks have to dive single file in the dark, bright lights become almost indispensable to keep them together. If I'm on a wreck or wall, I'm watching the guy in front of me (who's lit by the spill from my light) and watching the light spot of the guy behind me out of the corner of my eye. I don't see how a tank light helps at all; it's not going to make the guy in front of me more visible, and it helps not at all with the guy behind.

The one place where I've seen tank lights used effectively was doing the manta dive off the Big Island, where you have six or more boats dropping divers in the water. Each boat puts a colored lightstick on its divers, and that way, the DM, who doesn't really have time to make specific notes about the gear and appearance of each diver he's herding, can easily sort HIS divers out of the melee.

One of the funniest moments of our invitational dive trip in the Channel Islands last year was when the boat revealed that we were required to use tank lights to night dive. They put glowsticks on all of us, despite the fact that each of us was carrying at least a 21W HID and TWO backup lights. One of the divers got in the water and cried out to his buddy, "Look, Doug, you can FIND me! In the dark, you can FIND me!" We doubled over, howling.

[Charles21093]

I have learned a few things reading this thread (turn your light on before unclipping it being one of them) but I think I have something to add that I haven't seen yet.

There has been discussion about vertical and horizontal beam wiggling and what it means. I have two concerns with that mode of communication and a suggestion. First, given that we are talking about a night dive this assumes that the two divers' orientation is the same, or my horizontal beam-wiggling is able to be interpreted by the other diver as such. As the only thing I might be able to see is the other divers' light cone we might be at different orientations and not know it. Second, this mode of communication assumes that I am shining my light at you, which is something I was taught not to do for obvious reasons.

What I was taught, and what I haven't seen here (although this thread started as a gear question and not comm techniques) is that if you want to get another divers' attention you would wiggle your beam across whatever his beam is currently pointed at. They will most likely be looking at where their beam is pointed and by wiggling your beam back and forth across theirs you are asking for their immediate attention. When you have it, you can then direct your light at your own chest and use hand signals to communicate. Same for the OK query - moving your beam in a circle over their beam is asking for a response. They would circle their beam for OK and wiggle it if they wanted to switch to hand signals.

I have had the good fortune of ringing in the last two New Years 45 feet down in the Caribbean. Next year I might bring the wife. :)

Thanks,
Bill

[NWGratefulDiver]

some ops, for better or worse, require them.

and side by side actually isn't better in many cases (like parts of nearly all the dives I do, personally.) Anyplace you're swimming along say a wall or reef or whatever feature, side by side means one person can't see what you're there for very well - they'll be further away from it and have someone blocking their view. Yes, it's equally easy to see each other if you're side by side, but if one person can't see anything else, what's the point?

... which is why I said "in most cases". Certainly there are situations where side-by-side diving isn't desireable ... wall dives happen to be one of them.

But when diving single-file, a tank light serves little useful purpose. The person in the back can see the person in the front just fine, using their dive light. So the tank light isn't needed. The person in the front certainly isn't going to see their buddy's tank light, since the buddy is behind them.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[mdb]

Oh, they all do get so worked up about all these issues-solo diving is so much more relaxing.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Oh, they all do get so worked up about all these issues-solo diving is so much more relaxing.

Funny thing is that on that liveaboard Lynne was mentioning ... even a solo diver has to wear a glow stick on their tank ...

:confused:

boat policy ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Jewls]

From reading most of the posts, signaling seems to be a common discussion. I'm a new diver and one of the first things I learned was to talk with your buddy about what signals will be used and what they mean, before the dive. Maybe you're buddy has in mind a different signal for emergency than you do, so it's good to get things straight before the dive so there isn't any confusion during the dive. Signalling should be discussed before the dive, agreed upon and stuck to.

As far as equipment, I think the light in the safety marker is a great idea. Defo want the boats to see me, especially at night. I haven't had the pleasure of night diving yet, but this I will defo keep in mind ;)

[Dirty-Dog]

Funny thing is that on that liveaboard Lynne was mentioning ... even a solo diver has to wear a glow stick on their tank ...

:confused:

boat policy ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

That's to make the body recovery easier. Everybody knows that if you solo dive, wear split fins, or pick up a spare air, that you're going to DIE...

[mdb]

Funny thing is that on that liveaboard Lynne was mentioning ... even a solo diver has to wear a glow stick on their tank ...

:confused:

boat policy ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)


Bob: Even though I made my usual pro solo comment I was very impressed how you all handled the night dive incident that Lynne and you described. Your ability to communicate and solve problems quickly is a good lesson for us all. I've learned a lot from your posts here and on DM.