Odd event at depth

[TSandM]

Well, a new one for me tonight.

My husband and I met NW Grateful Diver and a newer diver for a night dive at a familiar local site tonight. Peter and I were both diving 32% Nitrox, both with tanks picked up from the same shop and I believe on the same day, although I'm not sure.

At the site, we agreed to dive as a foursome, but with two teams -- Bob and I were diving together, and Peter and Kelly were a second team. The plan was to go down to the bottle field (at approximately 90 feet) and spend a few minutes there, and then work our way upslope. A good gear check was done before descending, and descent and the swim downslope was uneventful. We spent about 20 minutes of total dive time swimming down and enjoying a number of small octopuses in the bottle field, and then we started up.

At about 70 feet, I saw a rapid light signal from behind me -- not an out of gas signal, but faster than our normal "look at the cool fish" signal. I turned around and saw Peter, who gave me the PADI "share gas" signal, the one that involves the hand going forward and back in front of the regulator. I was completely confused by this, but he shortly converted to a more normal out-of-gas signal across the throat. Although my immediate reaction was, "You're not even MY buddy, and what are you doing pulling a drill in 70 feet of water at night?", I obediently donated my reg. I have been asking to do more S-drills, and I honestly thought that's what this was. Except that, when I gave the "okay?" signal, I didn't get an answer. I repeated it, thinking maybe I hadn't lit my hand well, and what came back was . . . a thumb.

Oh, dear; something is clearly wrong, and we are now to do a free ascent from 70 feet in the dark. Peter signals Bob and Kelly to buddy up, and I go into my pocket to get my SMB (thank goodness I had it with me; I've done a few shore dives recently where I've been too lazy to put on pockets, and that won't happen again after tonight). I don't want to do a free, air-sharing ascent in the dark with no visual reference for vertical. But as I prepare to shoot the bag, Peter signals again, "expedited exit", and I realize whatever is wrong, he's okay with swimming upslope, rather than ascending where we are. So we begin to do that, and luckily, Bob intervenes with my navigation, because although I would have gotten us to shore, his route was quicker.

We do what is, for us, a rapid ascent (I think it took three minutes or so to get to 15 feet, where we spent about a minute, and then ascended.) On the surface, Peter told me he thought he had bad gas. He got a bad, oily taste at depth and began to feel nauseated. It got worse over a couple of minutes, so he wanted to have someone else's gas to breathe, to see if he felt better. He told me my gas tasted much better, but he was still nauseated and that's why he thumbed the dive.

Bob and I both breathed his gas once we got back to the car, and neither of us could detect anything odd.

Lessons from this dive: Some signals are simply commands, and you may not know why your buddy has given them, but you don't stop to ask. Asking for air is one of those, and the thumb is another. I didn't understand why either signal was given, and it didn't matter.

Second one for me, a team of four is confusing. Once Peter and I were sharing gas, to me, we were a team of two; I didn't make nearly a good enough effort to make sure the other two divers knew what was happening. Not that I knew what was happening, mind you, but at least I could have told Bob that Peter and I were going to ascend (which we ended up not doing). I believe he did see Peter's signal, but I was the unstressed diver, and should have made sure he and Kelly got it.

Third, the long hose gives you options. I had tons of gas, and once Peter felt he was on a clean breathing supply, there really was no reason not to swim upslope. Ascending where we were would have been more difficult (free ascent at night) and would have landed us on the surface a very long surface swim from shore.

And finally, any weaknesses in your dive will show up when something goes wrong. In this case, I did not identify the fastest route to shore. I was headed in, but too far south. The site is one I don't dive often, and we were off the routine navigation markers, and I didn't have time to look for them. Because Bob and Kelly stayed with us, we had better navigational information, because Bob practically lives at this site, and knew precisely where we were.

What made Peter sick is unclear. If there is anything wrong with the gas (which I doubt, since I'm pretty sure my tank was filled at the same place and at the same time) it wasn't apparent until we were at the deepest part of the dive. Is it possible that there is something in the gas that isn't a problem until it's concentrated? I suppose. But that still doesn't explain why my tank was fine.

It was a strange episode, not handled perfectly, but certainly handled well enough to get everybody home in good shape.

[Thalassamania]

Sounds like it all worked out fine, but my debrief question is: why was Peter coming to you for gas rather than Kelly? I understand familiarity and comfort and all that and I suspect that under the same stresses I'd likely have done the same ... but I'd expect to be called on it and so should he.

[DevonDiver]

Bob and I both breathed his gas once we got back to the car, and neither of us could detect anything odd.

The increased partial pressure/density of contaminated gas at depth could account for it only being noticed during the dive, but not at the surface.

[AfterDark]

The increased partial pressure/density of contaminated gas at depth could account for it only being noticed during the dive, but not at the surface.

That's exactly right, but don't try it out!;)

[Pimdiver]

There is no surprise to me that your "buddy" looked to you for assistance. I can not imagine NOT looking for my lifemate first. MY god Lynne, he did what I would hope you prepare for, or at least think about every time you dive. Maybe it's my profession, but I must assume failure at every point. You must expect it to fail.

[DandyDon]

I wonder if he signaled you instead of his assigned buddy as he knew how you would react, and that you should have plenty of gas? Y'all'd never dived with the new guy before, right?

What made Peter sick is unclear. If there is anything wrong with the gas (which I doubt, since I'm pretty sure my tank was filled at the same place and at the same time) it wasn't apparent until we were at the deepest part of the dive. Is it possible that there is something in the gas that isn't a problem until it's concentrated? I suppose. But that still doesn't explain why my tank was fine.
Tanks filled by the same compressor on the same day can certainly vary in gas quality. As a compressor heats up, dieseling becomes a possibility, and there are other possible variables. Divers see me test my tanks for CO and sometimes remark that if mine is ok then theirs must be, but that is just not certain.

The tanks may all be fine, but a CO test seems indicated. But I don't dive anyone's air on hope; I test before the dive.

The increased partial pressure/density of contaminated gas at depth could account for it only being noticed during the dive, but not at the surface.
Yep

[marinediva]

Hi,
I have been doing some reading recently about CO, and agree with Don that when compressors heat up air quality can differ.

I am actually trying to find any information on 'taste'.
Whilst I know that CO is supposed to be tasteless, odorless and colourless, from the mass of information I have been reading, it seems some people are able to detect a distaste.
It is suggested that this may be because of small particles of oil or lubricant from the compressor.

But, I am stating to wonder about something entirely different.
Could it be possible that a persons own body chemistry alkaline/acid make up is making it possible that one person 'tastes' bad air over someone else?
This is the question I have been seeking answers to.

In my past I studied macrobiotics, which uses the principal of PH to combine foods.
Matched with our own body chemistry, (minerals) since we all have different levels, and our own levels are often changing.

I would be very interested to know the results of testing of the air.

Am glad everything worked out fine, and everyone was okay.
Think Peter did the right thing, got the attention of the other buddy team,
he may have considered being nearest to experienced buddies the best option,
as I am sure at one point he did not know what the effects of what he was breathing would be.
For me it sounds like he made the safest decision to share from you.

[DevonDiver]

I am actually trying to find any information on 'taste'.
Whilst I know that CO is supposed to be tasteless, odorless and colourless, from the mass of information I have been reading, it seems some people are able to detect a distaste.
It is suggested that this may be because of small particles of oil or lubricant from the compressor.

The highest probability of dangerous contamination (Carbon Monoxide) entering a scuba tank is due to exhaust fumes being sucked into the compressor system and either bypassing or passing through filter/s to be compressed into the diver's cylinder.

Carbon monoxide results from the burning of hydrocarbons. When 'heavy' hydrocarbons (fuel/diesel) are combusted it is typical that not all hydrocarbons are burnt. Some particles pass through the combustion chamber and are released with the exhaust.

So, whilst Carbon Monoxide gas is tasteless by itself, if accompanied by unburnt hydrocarbon particles within exhaust from internal combustion engines/generators/compressors, it will possess a distinct oil/fuel taste.

It is more dangerous fwhen carbon monoxide remains tasteless, for instance, when liquid petroleum gas is burnt. Luckily, scuba compressors don't run off LPG.

[Kingpatzer]

I think your lessons learned is missing a piece (unless you just didn't finish the story).

You surfaced from depth with the possibility of having had breathed bad air. Did Peter get on O2 at the surface? If not, why not? It is unknown what, if anything, he breathed at depth. Any potential effects of that substance (if there is one) is thus unknown. Wouldn't getting on 02 and being monitored for an hour or two be an appropriate response?

[PfcAJ]

Well, for the safety of those who get their gas filled after you, I think you should get it tested. Inform the shop that something was amiss and make sure they check and recheck everything.

[Kingpatzer]

Well, for the safety of those who get their gas filled after you, I think you should get it tested. Inform the shop that something was amiss and make sure they check and recheck everything.


Do you know the date and time of your fills on those particular tanks?

[parzdiver]

Since he felt he had bad gas, are you planning to have his tank (and yours) analyzed?

[NWGratefulDiver]

I think your lessons learned is missing a piece (unless you just didn't finish the story).

You surfaced from depth with the possibility of having had breathed bad air. Did Peter get on O2 at the surface? If not, why not? It is unknown what, if anything, he breathed at depth. Any potential effects of that substance (if there is one) is thus unknown. Wouldn't getting on 02 and being monitored for an hour or two be an appropriate response?

Yanno, that's something that never occurred to me at the time ... and I had an O2 kit handy. I asked Peter if he was OK and he said "I've felt better". Absolutely correct that I should've offered him O2 ... just didn't think of it.

Thanks for bringing it up ... another lesson learned.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[TSandM]

Yes, we do know the date (not the time) and we will be talking to the shop. Their setup is electric, but I understand that filter issues can still end up with hydrocarbons in the gas. I remember a story on the Deco Stop about someone whose gas ended up having toluene (I think) in it.

The reason Peter came to me and not Kelly was simple . . . Peter knew that a) I'd give him gas, and b) there would be no buoyancy or visibility issues with doing so, or with a subsequent ascent or exit. Kelly might have been able to do the same thing, but he didn't KNOW that. We were all close together, so it wasn't a big deal, and as soon as he was on my reg, he signaled to the other two to buddy up, a signal they both saw and understood. It was really more akin to reordering a team. I would have done the same thing.

I will say that I was surprised at how much anxiety it caused, though. Being in relatively deep water, in the dark, and knowing that your spouse is in some kind of distress that you don't understand is more frightening than I was prepared for. In fact, the air-share was clumsy, because when Peter didn't return the "okay" signal as we are trained to do, it broke my normal sequence, and I failed to finish deploying the hose, although I did it shortly afterwards when I felt a tug on the canister.

I'm not really sure that O2 was indicated. If someone came into the ER stating that they thought they had inhaled a small amount of hydrocarbon, we would just check their sats and watch them for a little bit. Since Peter wasn't complaining of shortness of breath or poor exercise tolerance (as evaluated by carrying his gear up the steps and to the car) I didn't think it was likely that he had any significant pulmonary issue.

[DandyDon]

Hi,
I have been doing some reading recently about CO, and agree with Don that when compressors heat up air quality can differ.

I am actually trying to find any information on 'taste'.
Whilst I know that CO is supposed to be tasteless, odorless and colourless, from the mass of information I have been reading, it seems some people are able to detect a distaste.
It is suggested that this may be because of small particles of oil or lubricant from the compressor.
CO is indeed tasteless & odorless, but it is often found with other contaminates, yes. Car exhaust fumes are a common example of both together altho today's vehicles are not as bad as those I grew up with.

Can't comment to the rest of your post; beyond me.

The highest probability of dangerous contamination (Carbon Monoxide) entering a scuba tank is due to exhaust fumes being sucked into the compressor system and either bypassing or passing through filter/s to be compressed into the diver's cylinder.
Well, that is certainly one way, depending on the air intake for the compressor and possible changes. The capability of those filters can also change in a day's use. CO scubers also exist to remove missed CO but I don't know how commonly they are used. Anonlox Clear inline monitors with auto shutoff are often used in the US, but are not required - and with Padi no longer requiring even quarterly testing (not that was enforced or even meaningful then), we may see fewer unless more divers test and complain.

A clean compressor with a good air intake can produce CO on its own tho as production heats up the compressor to cause internal dieseling.

Many diver shops have tested at recognized labs and some still do, but 3% of those tests fail - some horribly. You have to expect the samples to be taken right after filter changes and while the compressor is cool so you got to wonder how bad it can get at bad times.

I think your lessons learned is missing a piece (unless you just didn't finish the story).

You surfaced from depth with the possibility of having had breathed bad air. Did Peter get on O2 at the surface? If not, why not? It is unknown what, if anything, he breathed at depth. Any potential effects of that substance (if there is one) is thus unknown. Wouldn't getting on 02 and being monitored for an hour or two be an appropriate response?
While not obvious from her post, TSandM is known to be an emergency room physician and married to the victim, so I am sure he received any care indicated - except it does sound from the involved posters that the stress of the moment might have caused some misses?

Well, for the safety of those who get their gas filled after you, I think you should get it tested. Inform the shop that something was amiss and make sure they check and recheck everything.
Again, there may well not be anything wrong with the gas - but I think CO testing is indeed indicated: Of that tank, not the compressor on another day. Often in these suspected cases a CO tester cannot be found, but I think this dive team can find and use one ok. Looking forward to results.

[ianr33]

There was a big thread on Thedecostop about contaminated gas a while back. Think it was started by barney after he had an unpleasant episode on a cave dive.
IIRC correctly the contaminant was toluene caused by brearakdown of compressor oil.

This is it http://thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8069&highlight=toluene

[NWGratefulDiver]

There is no surprise to me that your "buddy" looked to you for assistance. I can not imagine NOT looking for my lifemate first. MY god Lynne, he did what I would hope you prepare for, or at least think about every time you dive. Maybe it's my profession, but I must assume failure at every point. You must expect it to fail.

To set the scenario a bit more clearly ... Lynne and I were leading, Peter and Kelly were trailing us by only about 15 feet. Vis was better than usual ... perhaps 35-40 feet ... and Peter's signal was very easy to see. My first thought when I saw the flashing was "Geez Peter, you really don't need to do drills on every dive". Lynne reacted instantaneously, and had Peter on her reg less than 5 seconds after he flashed. Kelly and I were watching. As soon as I saw Peter give the thumb I looked at Kelly and signaled that he and I were now buddies, almost at the same time Lynne was signaling the same thing.

I think Peter went to Lynne because Kelly is a relatively new diver and I don't think they've dived together before. So it was a more comfortable reaction. Under the circumstances, it was the right call ... especially given our proximity.

There was no confusion or uncertainty involved in how the situation was going to play out. Kelly and I started following them upslope and when I noticed them veering too far south, signaled the correct direction and took the lead. Kelly did exactly as I expected him to do.

It was an odd situation, but at no time did it feel like an emergency ... even the "new guy" played his part exactly as he should. To my concern, it's an example of why practicing your skills matters ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[rx7diver]

On the surface, Peter told me he thought he had bad gas. He got a bad, oily taste at depth and began to feel nauseated. It got worse over a couple of minutes, so he wanted to have someone else's gas to breathe, to see if he felt better. He told me my gas tasted much better, but he was still nauseated and that's why he thumbed the dive.

Bob and I both breathed his gas once we got back to the car, and neither of us could detect anything odd.


TSandM, a couple of remarks:

1. Had your husband's regs and/or valves been recently serviced? If so, maybe the cleaner/procedure used had something to do with this. I used to service my disassembled regs using a warm dishwater wash, followed by a soak in warm vinegar (with agitation), followed by an extended soak in running fresh water (with agitation). After I took my first Nitrox course, I began using Simple Green instead of dishwashing detergent. During my first dive after I switched degreasers, I detected the oily taste/smell of Simple Green in my air when breathing at depth which was not detected at the surface either before the dive or after the dive. I re-serviced my regs, this time using dishwashing detergent (rather than Simple Green) on the regs' soft parts. I did NOT detect the oily taste/smell during the subsequent dive.

2. This is really an observation, rather than a remark. This event has made me think again about a thread you and I recently participated in, which discussed buddy-breathing the short hose. Many people assume (1) the need to share gas during a tech dive will be due only to an OOG emergency, and (2) redundant regulators fail independently. To my mind, these are really huge assumptions. Your event is an example of a situation where there was a need to share gas even though there was NOT an OOG event, despite you and your husband each wearing redundant regulators. Okay. If your long hose reg had failed while you and your husband were sharing gas, then you two would have buddy-breathed your short hose (assuming, of course, that the other two divers couldn't assist you). Or maybe your husband would have breathed your short hose while you breathed your power inflator, as suggested in that thread by an extremely experienced DIR diver.

[Quero]

First of all, congratulations on handling the incident. I don't think it matters that it wasn't "flawless." The result is what counts, and that result was a happy ending, including learning about your own feelings and reactions so you can fine tune your responses should there ever be a "next time."

I have had a similar experience with air that tasted fine on the surface but was bad at depth. It was also a Nitrox fill. Luckily for me, I was on a boat dive and all I had to do was surface and switch out the tank. Nobody else on the surface was able to taste the bad air in my case either, but I got the taste almost immediately after splashing in and descending straight down. When I reported it to the dive center, they drained every tank they had filled that afternoon, checked/changed the filters, and started over, since there was no practical way to know whether any other tanks had been affected. We hypothesized that there had been a motorcycle running outside of the building near the air intake while the rider was engaged in conversation with a resort staff member. The dive center later fenced off that area so no vehicles could pollute the air directly under the intake hose of the electric compressor.

[DandyDon]

I have had a similar experience with air that tasted fine on the surface but was bad at depth. Luckily for me, I was on a boat dive and all I had to do was surface and switch out the tank. Nobody else on the surface was able to taste the bad air in my case either. When I reported it to the dive center, they drained every tank they had filled that afternoon, checked the filters, and started over, since there was no practical way to know whether any other tanks had been affected.
That's the usual. Destroy the evidence and move on... :(

[Quero]

That's the usual. Destroy the evidence and move on... :(

I wouldn't consider it 'evidence' unless there was a legal investigation. I saw (and still see) the dive center's actions as appropriate to protect anybody else who might get a bad tank. Leaving all those tanks full and simply handing them out to divers would have been negligent. The only practical alternative was to drain the tanks and service the compressor.

[marinediva]

This is a report about an electric compressor and bad gas.

Michael McFadyen's Scuba Diving Web Site (http://www.michaelmcfadyenscuba.info/viewpage.php?page_id=16)
Oil Taste in Air

In July 2005 I had to replace one of the filters that I had purchased from a person well before I thought I should as I could taste oil. I should state that I am fairly sensitive to things like oil in air (just as I can pick up that milk is nearing its expiry date well before others do). No-one else had noticed it.

[shoredivr]

In July 2005 I had to replace one of the filters that I had purchased from a person well before I thought I should as I could taste oil. I should state that I am fairly sensitive to things like oil in air (just as I can pick up that milk is nearing its expiry date well before others do). No-one else had noticed it.

Perhaps you are a "Supertaster", someone with an above average sense of taste. In this case, a good sensitivity to have...

Supertaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertaster)

[TSandM]

rx7diver, had my regulator malfunctioned, I would have signaled Bob, and put Peter on his long hose. That's why we dive in teams of 3!

What would actually have been more likely in this case would have been for the two of us, who both picked up our tanks at the same place and the same time, to have both had bad gas. In which case, we were fortunate enough to have two buddies, but had we not, I think we would simply have made a direct ascent, perhaps with one of us on someone else's gas. Or we could have buddy-breathed Bob's long hose. Had we been alone, sharing gas wouldn't have been an issue at all.

[Peter Guy]

Thal -- I apologized to Kelly for not going to him which I think surprised him (the apology, NOT the decision to go to Lynne). He clearly understood the reason I went to Lynne (who was closer to me than Bob) -- and while he had plenty of gas, he had the least amount of any of us (I was monitoring his gas as he is a new diver).

The shop opens in 1/2 hour and I will be taking the tank AND the reg in (BTW, I am familiar with the "newly serviced reg" taste and it wasn't it). Interestingly, I could still taste it from touching my tongue to the mouthpiece once the gear was back in the car (I haven't checked it this morning).

I am really wondering if, perhaps, it wasn't me and not the gas -- something I ate earlier in the day reacting? Or, since we were in an area that is, shall we say, not pristine, maybe I ran into a patch of oil (or something) floating in the water and that is what got to me?

I thought about getting on O2 but I didn't feel out of breath or any such -- and once on Lynne's reg, the taste went away immediately and didn't occur again until I breathed off my reg later.

[ZenDiver.3D]

That's the usual. Destroy the evidence and move on... :(

What evidence? If one of my DM's, divers, or instructors noticed this, I would do exactly the same. I would pull every tank, pop them and clean them, check all filters, check and clear the compressor, and then look for other possibilities. That is very responsible behavior for a report that is really undetectable at surface.
I think the shop did the right thing all the way around.

[ZenDiver.3D]

Lynne,
After reading it all, I absolutely understand why Peter went to you. My hubby would have gone to me over the new diver. Habit and trust built tend to outweigh other things. In any event, all communicated and safely made it. It not the emergency, it's how you handle it, that defines you as a diver. It sounds like you all handled it very well.

[DandyDon]

What evidence? If one of my DM's, divers, or instructors noticed this, I would do exactly the same. I would pull every tank, pop them and clean them, check all filters, check and clear the compressor, and then look for other possibilities. That is very responsible behavior for a report that is really undetectable at surface.
I think the shop did the right thing all the way around.
While it is indeed responsible to drain all suspected tanks, you never know for sure unless tested. The scarcity of CO analyzers is the real problem, but that is changing. Only one boat has the Clear inline monitor but Anaolox is introducing a new portable unit in November.

[tkdgodess]

Lynne, you executed solving a problem with the goal of everyone surviving the dive. It amazes me that you are picking apart what you did "wrong"

Quote "And finally, any weaknesses in your dive will show up when something goes wrong. In this case, I did not identify the fastest route to shore. I was headed in, but too far south. The site is one I don't dive often, and we were off the routine navigation markers, and I didn't have time to look for them. Because Bob and Kelly stayed with us, we had better navigational information, because Bob practically lives at this site, and knew precisely where we were.

What made Peter sick is unclear. If there is anything wrong with the gas (which I doubt, since I'm pretty sure my tank was filled at the same place and at the same time) it wasn't apparent until we were at the deepest part of the dive. Is it possible that there is something in the gas that isn't a problem until it's concentrated? I suppose. But that still doesn't explain why my tank was fine.

It was a strange episode, not handled perfectly, but certainly handled well enough to get everybody home in good shape."

You also called donating ooa as "clumsy".

Give yourself a break, you reacted well with your training. Training drills are expected scenerios. You were in a real situation and reacted to how you were trained, the additional stress of it being a loved one is real. Clumsy, weakness, not handled perfectly? :confused:

Real emergencies are rarely graceful, strong or perfect.

[FritzCat66]

Given that it was a "bad gas" situation, however, it seems like he wouldn't want to go to you for relief, Lynne, since it sounds like you both got fills at the same shop. Seems like an available buddy with a tank filled elsewhere would be preferable, but maybe there's something I'm missing?

Either way, this has made me consider: If I were to run into a "foul gas" situation solo, I would of course simply switch to the pony and ascend. But that wouldn't help if I had received the same quality fill from the same place as my primary cylinder, nor would it help if I filled the pony with a transfiller.

I'll have to think about that - I already keep a different mix in the pony (plain air, all the time) and since it's rarely used it typically has been filled many weeks before my primary, but still... any Near Miss post that gives us all pause is a good one!

[openmindOW]

[QUOTE=Peter Guy;5488870]The shop opens in 1/2 hour and I will be taking the tank AND the reg in (BTW, I am familiar with the "newly serviced reg" taste and it wasn't it). Interestingly, I could still taste it from touching my tongue to the mouthpiece once the gear was back in the car (I haven't checked it this morning). [/QUOTE}

Please have the gas independently checked. And please let us know the result.

[TSandM]

I don't think we need to have the gas independently checked. Our shop is one of the most reputable ones in our area, and the owner is beside himself about this, even though we all sniffed the gas this morning and neither he nor I could detect anything odd about it. Samples from that tank, and the other one we picked up the same day, are being sent out for comprehensive analysis. No other complaints have been received by the shop, and the tanks were filled some time between the 8th and 10th of this month -- so, given the clientele there, a LOT of tanks from that period of time have likely been dived already.

We are seriously wondering whether Peter ran into something that had been dumped into the WATER. A storm drain empties into this dive site, and it has been raining and there is a lot of runoff right now. If someone emptied a gas can or something into the storm drain, I suppose it's possible that Peter could have gotten a face full of it.

Anyway, I am totally confident that the gas will be analyzed and the results will honestly be reported to us. No concerns about that at all.

[ZenDiver.3D]

While it is indeed responsible to drain all suspected tanks, you never know for sure unless tested. The scarcity of CO analyzers is the real problem, but that is changing. Only one boat has the Clear inline monitor but Anaolox is introducing a new portable unit in November.

Yep. But, an analyzer would not help in these types of instances. It may not be registerable (yes, I made up a word), on the the surface, so depending on just that is not always the answer.
However, I would not just drain, because that doesn't ensure complete eradication of the problem. I would open them, inspect them, and then clean them, just to be certain. It is worth it, to us, just to be sure. I would always rather be safe than sorry.

I don't have a CO analyzer. We are scrupulous about our compressor area, tanks, and maintenance, but I don't know about places where I travel. I am quite sure of my own tanks, but I have definitely been to so out of the way, dodgy dive areas...... A personal one may be a sound idea for those of us who travel a lot.

[DevonDiver]

We are seriously wondering whether Peter ran into something that had been dumped into the WATER. A storm drain empties into this dive site, and it has been raining and there is a lot of runoff right now. If someone emptied a gas can or something into the storm drain, I suppose it's possible that Peter could have gotten a face full of it.

That could certainly be a possibility. Even a very small film of fuel on the surface could get into the 2nd stage leave you feeling pretty nauseous.

I've stuck my head into quite a few pockets of diesel when wreck diving. It really gets impregnated into your kit and can be a bitch to get out.

Did Peter's mask/hood/hair have any gasoline taste/smell?

[gitterdun]

...maybe I ran into a patch of oil (or something) floating in the water and that is what got to me?


That actually happened with someone in our group, a few weeks ago.

We were on a longer scooter dive in the St. Lawrence, and were showing some friends a new wreck that we had found. There were six of us, but in two groups of three, one group behind the other. I was in the group of three in front.

Once we got to the wreck, one of our friends in the back group did their gas switch, and shortly after, wrote to me that their gas tasted a bit funny. I offered my long hose, which was denied, so since I do dive with this person on a regular basis, I signaled to the team that I was going to stick with this buddy, showed them the wetnotes, and we started for home. Surfacing was not an option. I know this person very well in the water, and stuck to them like glue, watching their every movement, and ready to donate. They said they were ok, just didn't like the taste in their mouth.

Once we got to shore and doffed our gear, they called the shop. They are a good shop, monitor their fill station like clockwork. They checked all filters etc., and we actually went there to show them the tanks. You could actually smell horrible gas, when purging the reg on the surface.

The regs were taken off, and when turning the tank valve on, the gas didn't smell bad at all. Now, there was definitely a mystery.

Finally, the shop owner thought to open the regs, and everything was absolutely covered in some kind of petroleum. Also, their neck seal and wing also smelled horribly of oil.

Somehow, near that new wreck, there was some kind of petroleum product either floating through the water, dumped, or disturbed, and only hit one out of the six of us.

Kind of like a needle in the haystack, in the middle of the St. Lawrence River, but... it's possible. :dontknow:

Glad that everyone made it back safely, and good on ya, Lynne. :)

[Country Diver]

Thanks Chantelle, and I would like to add to this if I can. It was very odd b/c after I had switched to my back gas and breathed it for about 10 minutes everything was fine. I then felt a tingle on my chin, and scratched it, and again fine, then a few minutes later had a petroleum taste, but not with every breath. I let the group know through wet notes, and through patting my reg and pinching my nose. I felt fine, and this was why I didn't accept the gas donation, but accepted Chantelle's offer to stick with me as she knows my mannerisms on dives and would be able to clue in fast if there was an issue.

After we got out I thought that I was desensitized to the smell, b/c I smelt it everywhere! The gas was fine, but my back up reg's diaphragm was coated with some sort of petroleum product, as was a bit of my neckseal and a little on the suit and wing. We put Seal Saver on the seal immediately even though it stunk. My primary reg was okay but still had some...just enough to taste, so I must have been exhaling at the time of impact. The guys at the shop were great at solving this mystery, but it didn't help that I now had a clean up on my hands to get rid of the nasty smell. The regs, especially the diaphragms, were torn apart at home and soaked over night in Dawn and a bit of hot water. The suit from the shoulders up was also soaked in Dawn, as was the wing (opened and all exposed for cleaning). The next day I changed over to Simple Green and soaked the regs and my mask, as it also got some. I let everything soak all night and all the next day mainly because the petroleum had embedded into the rubber, and diaphragm. After rinsing everything again and everything passing my sniff test, I thought that I would try it out. There is no more taste of oil or smell of oil. I do have replacement diaphragms and a new neck seal waiting should I need it, but so far so good. After the drysuit neck seal was taken out of the Dawn and rinsed, I did put Seal Saver on it again.

It was a fluke, and it sounds like you might have had the same thing happen to you....some random oil blob that hadn't settled yet. Try to smell the gas in the tanks separately, or use a different set of regs. If the gas didn't taste funny right from the get go, then get some Dawn and soak those regs. Oil and latex don't get along, and it will break it down. We totally disconnected the regs from the back gas to figure this out.

Think back to just before you tasted it...did you feel a tingle on your face at all? I was replaying the dive around that time over and over again in my mind, and I remembered that moment of tingle....when it must have happened, but because we saw little fresh water jelly fish earlier, I actually thought that maybe they do sting...lol. Now I know differently.

[swamp diver]

I don't think we need to have the gas independently checked. Our shop is one of the most reputable ones in our area, and the owner is beside himself about this, even though we all sniffed the gas this morning and neither he nor I could detect anything odd about it. Samples from that tank, and the other one we picked up the same day, are being sent out for comprehensive analysis. No other complaints have been received by the shop, and the tanks were filled some time between the 8th and 10th of this month -- so, given the clientele there, a LOT of tanks from that period of time have likely been dived already.

We are seriously wondering whether Peter ran into something that had been dumped into the WATER. A storm drain empties into this dive site, and it has been raining and there is a lot of runoff right now. If someone emptied a gas can or something into the storm drain, I suppose it's possible that Peter could have gotten a face full of it.

Anyway, I am totally confident that the gas will be analyzed and the results will honestly be reported to us. No concerns about that at all.


I would be very selective in which of the accredited US labs is used for the gas analysis. There are at least two volatile hydrocarbon exposure incidents on the Decostop whereby two different labs reported trimix and nitrox as having oxygen contents of 21 percent. One incident involved a fatality and the other was a serious injury. Labs get busy and make mistakes, techs get lazy and think all diving samples must be air, some labs have better equipment and procedures than others, etc.

I'd spend the $100 and use the same lab the US Navy uses for many of its specialty assignments. Analytical Chemists is a one man shop and the owner David Elgas is fastidious about ensuring the results in these types of cases are reliable and accurate.
If you can breathe it we can analyze it (http://www.airanalysis.com)

I know of two bad gas incidents from Florida where the original analysis was reported as normal simply because the lab did not investigate a total volatile hydrocarbon result of 14 ppm which is considered normal under CGA Grade E but would be considered highly anomalous under other global dive standards which have been updated more recently. Upon further investigation using the GC/MS the anomalous volatile hydrocarbons turned out to be toluene which is very narcotic at concentrations below that which is allowed by the CGA Grade E standard. If I recall the divers were impaired with toluene concentrations of 5 ppm and 10 ppm in the 80 foot range. The larger labs generally won't speciate the individual components making up the volatile hydrocarbons until they are > 25 ppm. Here in Canada the dive standard only allows 5 ppm of volatile hydrocarbon before a sample is failed. David Elgas at Analytical Chemists will identify any major hydrocarbon peaks even if the total is < 25 pm if a dive injury/fatality is reported.

The accredited labs report that about 3 to 5 percent of samples fail the CGA Grade E standard for carbon monoxide and depending on which lab one speaks to about 0.5 percent of samples fail at 25 ppm for total volatile hydrocarbons. These events are far more common that we think and they can happen for various reasons even at reputable fill stations from time to time.

I know of one incident at a "reputable" fill station whereby the compressor was serviced by an third party outfit which used brake cleaner containing trichloroethylene (TCE) to degrease the compressor and then did not rinse out the piping thoroughly. TCE is highly narcotic and could be used as an anesthetic if one ignored its nasty side effect profile.TCE concentrations as low at 2 ppm at recreational depths will impair some sensitive individuals.

It may turn out that the breathing gas was not the problem, but until an high quality analysis is done by a lab willing to identify the individual components by GC/MS if the total volatile hydrocarbon is > 5 ppm I'd hold off on coming to any conclusions.

Analox has a great video here of several bell divers whose dry suits were contaminated with crude oil and how they were unable to follow commands to put on FFM with clean gas. Having one's regulator become contaminated with liquid or solid hydrocarbon on descent would also have the same effect if an aromatic hydrocarbon at sufficient concentration and the diver at depth.
YouTube - AnaloxSensorTech's Channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/AnaloxSensorTech#p/u/10/4y86SgFNfOw)

Most of the incidents involving volatile hydrocarbon poisoning present first with cognitive changes (excitation initially followed by decreased level of consciousness) and coordination problems at depth whereas the CO incidents in general present with shortness of breath, nausea and headache if the ppCO is sufficient or often simply exertional fatigue if subclinical symptoms with lower ppCO.

[DandyDon]

It may well have been something in the water? I am not very experienced in shore or close to shore diving and have only dived up there a little. The one dive we did from a city parking lot and the two we did in dead end Hood Canal did make me wonder about such possibilities tho; I saw in the news this week that Hood is having fish kills and some consider it on the verge of a big problem.

Or it might have been something else in the gas? As Swamp Diver has well explained, there are other possibilities and you don't know until well tested.

Yep. But, an analyzer would not help in these types of instances. It may not be registerable (yes, I made up a word), on the the surface, so depending on just that is not always the answer.
Yes, with regard to the more common threat of CO, testing on the surface would certainly be informative. If there is not enough CO to register on the surface on a applicable low range unit, then that is not the problem and we do already have a few different brands of portable, low range CO testers available to Ops and divers both. So easy & cheap now to rule CO out, or not - and the new Analox portable CO unit coming out in a few weeks looks great.

However, I would not just drain, because that doesn't ensure complete eradication of the problem. I would open them, inspect them, and then clean them, just to be certain. It is worth it, to us, just to be sure. I would always rather be safe than sorry.
:thumb: Good plan...!

I don't have a CO analyzer. We are scrupulous about our compressor area, tanks, and maintenance, but I don't know about places where I travel. I am quite sure of my own tanks, but I have definitely been to so out of the way, dodgy dive areas...... A personal one may be a sound idea for those of us who travel a lot.
That attitude worked for Ops in the past, before affordable options, but won't now. I am confident that your compressor is clean & operated well, you might even be using the scrubbers available, but if you don't monitor or test with today's technology - it's hopeful diving. Even the cleanest compressors with remote air intake can get hot enough to diesel & produce CO internally and conditions for that risk are more possible in Kuwait than Seattle weather for sure. Today, any compressor can have an Analox Clear (http://www.analox.net/proddetail.php?productid=9&ref=22) inline monitor for $1000 US with complete installastions followed by cheap calibrations. Many or maybe most don't but even my tiny LDS in Lubbock does, and even as scrupulous as the M.V.Spree already was about everything onboard - it is now the first liveaboard to have one in operation. It's your shop and your call, but since you volunteered here that you don't, even tho there is just no need for skipping today's safety technology. It's doable and affordable.

For any Op that refuses to use the Clear inline monitor, and there are far too many today - then the Analox Portable CO (http://www.analox-blog.co.uk/?p=240) unit coming out in a few weeks or one of the other portable units available today is certainly a good defense, for Seattle, Kuwait, Roatan, or wherever. The main fill station on Cozumel is scrupulous too, but we got readings last month anyway, some worrisome - and they weren't the first.

It just not safe for any Op to not use the inline and/or portable tester to be sure. For the Ops that don't bother, a portable unit is the only safeguard.

[Slamfire]

Lynne, Thanks for posting. Peter, I'm very glad you are fine. Lynne, don't be so hard on yourself. This was not a drill or a class. This is what the drills and the classes are for. In the real world, any landing from which you can walk away is a good landing.

When I was going through flight training, I had a very rough touch and go landing during a solo training flight. It was a cross country flight that involved landings in a couple of airports that were not my base. The landing was so rough that I was scared that I had messed up my landing gear. For the next 20 mins, I was flying very fearful about how my next landing could end in disaster because of a messed up wheel. Nothing happened. The landing gear was not damaged after all.

The airport where I landed rough became a symbol of a less than optimal skill that I needed to conquer. A little later, while doing a practice flight for the final flight test with my instructor, we went to land in that very same airport. This time my landing was sooo smooth that for the first few moments I was doubtful that the wheels had actually made contact because there was barely any felt impact. I got into a celebratory mood and exclaimed to my instructor, "was that a smooth landing or what!?"

My instructor being a little bit of a prick said,
- "Yeah, but did you look at your airspeed while landing. What if this had been a short runway or an icy runway?"

- "But it's not a short or icy runway and you did not tell me this had to be a simulated short landing. Airspeed was 70 knots which is on the high end but still within nominal parameters for a normal landing."

So it doesn't really matter how good you execute something, if you look really close and long enough you will always find something to critique about it. Bottomline is that Peter and you both walked away from this and this is good.

[TSandM]

Thanks for the moral support, everybody. But I was trained by people with very high standards, and I can certainly hear their debrief! We got through a simple problem reasonably smoothly, but there are definitely lessons for me to take home, and hopefully, the next problem (which I pray is a LONG time away) will be handled more adeptly.

If anything, this taught me that you can run all the drills you want, but nothing burns stuff into your nervous system like executing under stress.

[Tortuga68]

as I prepare to shoot the bag, Peter signals again, "expedited exit"

What is your signal for expedited exit?

[NWGratefulDiver]

What is your signal for expedited exit?

Point your index finger toward the exit with your thumb extended surfaceward ... it means, basically, "we need to end the dive, but a direct ascent isn't necessary" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Cave Diver]

Point your index finger toward the exit with your thumb extended surfaceward ... it means, basically, "we need to end the dive, but a direct ascent isn't necessary" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o284/hargus1/fingergun.jpg

"Dive is over and we're going THAT way..."

[Qnape]

Thanks for the moral support, everybody. But I was trained by people with very high standards, and I can certainly hear their debrief! We got through a simple problem reasonably smoothly, but there are definitely lessons for me to take home, and hopefully, the next problem (which I pray is a LONG time away) will be handled more adeptly.

If anything, this taught me that you can run all the drills you want, but nothing burns stuff into your nervous system like executing under stress.

For what it is worth, there are those of us out there who are trying to learn from these forums how experienced divers handle REAL situations to prepare themselves for the inevitable problems they will face themselves. To paraphrase a famous quote I am too lazy to search for and properly credit, "no plan of battle survives contact with the enemy". The most rigorous training I have received so far in my short time diving has been NACD Cavern, which certainly opened my eyes and if nothing else hinted at how much I still don't know. For one thing, it taught me the value of accident analysis, the method by which many of the rules of cavern and cave diving were developed. I can only hope that my training translates to action under stress as well as yours did; my dive buddy (16 yr old daughter) and I drill but I still worry that in a real emergency my fears and concerns for my buddy will replace my training. I hope that when the day comes I will retain and react as much within my training as you did, despite any Monday morning second analyses that may be running through your mind or in these posts. For example, I think it may be too much to ask under the present scenario for Peter to have chosen someone other than Lynn when asking for air on the basis of where each tank was filled (since Lynn's was filled at the same time, in the same place). After all, as I have learned here there can be enormous variations in fill quality tank to tank from the same compressor on the same day. Sure. that would have been better but in the real world it would take enormous presence of mind and detachment from stress to make that connection at a time when you need to find replacement gas, fast. Perhaps too much to ask for under the circumstances.

Thank you for sharing this experience with us; please know that there is great value in sharing your incident to many of us. I can only hope my buddy and I can react as well under similar circumstances.

TS&M; my "handle" has a common source with yours, I think. You reference the Borg unless I am badly mistaken; mine refers to Q, also from Next Generation, after whom I named our devious yellow nape parrot. Thanks again for sharing!

[Peter Guy]

I do want to correct one bit of information -- our tanks were filled at the same shop but some time apart -- not that that I had even considered the issue. What I wanted to breathe off someone else's reg to see if I could detect a difference.

In retrospect I wish I had breathed off my backup to see if it was the gas or the second stage (assuming it wasn't just me!). Anyone know if narcosis can effect taste?

[TSandM]

Well, the user name is from our horse breeding operation, but the avatar and user title are definitely Borg-related. When I discovered DIR diving, I became a rather vocal partisan, and got christened the Borg Queen as a result :)

[Soakedlontra]

Peter and Lynne,

I am glad to read that everything turned out to be OK!

There is a lot good info here that Sam should read too. I am forwarding this thread to him right now.

[Thalassamania]

"No plan of battle survives contact with the enemy." is often credited to von Clausewitz, but it was actually von Moltke who said: "No campaign plan survives first contact with the enemy."

Back on topic: we had a problem at the Aquarius Dive Shop in Monterey many years ago. We filled over thirty tanks and three of them were clearly bad. It turned out that the air intake, which was on top of the building near the corner had sucked in diesel fumes during the short time that a delivery truck was parked there idling.

[sambolino44]

Glad to hear it turned out OK. I'll be interested to see the results of the testing.

I called a dive several months ago, not because of a taste, but I could smell the air when I exhaled through my nose to clear my mask. It was a strange, plastic smell I'd never encountered before, but have been able to detect it, although much weaker, in scuba tanks since. I never found out what it was, and have been given answers ranging from, "You should never detect any smell at all in your air." to "A slight smell is common and harmless."

I'll be looking closely to see how much that new Analox CO analyzer will cost.

[dumpsterDiver]

I think that you all handled the situation pretty much flawlessly.

It is funny, I NEVER do air share drills with my normal buddies, so if one gave me the sign, I would not even consider "why is he doing a drill NOW??", I would be 100% thinking that this is a true emergency and respond accordingly in an immediate fashion . Not that it is bad to train for this stuff...:D:D:D:D

The only part of the story that I didn't like was an apparent "need" to use and deploy the SMB for an openwater, nightime ascent. I know that if I were in that situation, I would not like a guy sucking off my tank, doing an ascent in the dark, zero fixed reference and not knowing what the problem is. However, I honestly don't think I would even be considering the possiblity of screwing around with an SMB in an emergency unless I felt that there was imminent danger from boat traffic (or something similar) that made the smb essential. Can't imagine it would do much good as protection at night anyway.

Basically, I wouldn't be out there night diving, if I was not confident I could make a safe and controlled openwater, night time ascent with zero fixed references from whatever depth that we planned.

In a true emergency, I would want to be on the surface in the fastest and cleanest manner possible (without the potential complexity and entanglement hazards a SMB brings to the table). At the very least, I would want to get up to 15 feet and then consider deployment (especially if deco were involved).

I know that this does not apply in this case because you two decided to swim up the slope. This would DEFINITELY woud been my choice as well, just as long as the "victim" was suggesting that means of egress.

One last thought... This is another reason why I like the redundancy of pony bottles (full of air). If the main tank tastes funny, I am on the pony bottle and probably on my way UP with very little extraneous activity.

[flots am]

We do what is, for us, a rapid ascent (I think it took three minutes or so to get to 15 feet, where we spent about a minute, and then ascended.) On the surface, Peter told me he thought he had bad gas. He got a bad, oily taste at depth and began to feel nauseated. It got worse over a couple of minutes, so he wanted to have someone else's gas to breathe, to see if he felt better. He told me my gas tasted much better, but he was still nauseated and that's why he thumbed the dive.


Bob and I both breathed his gas once we got back to the car, and neither of us could detect anything odd.

Noses are terrible at reliably detecting contamination. Bob could have been smelling something nasty from a sinus infection or from actual bad air, and conversely, just because you didn't smell anything doesn't mean the gas wasn't contaminated.

If you still have the tank, you could always send a sample out for analysis. It would be interesting to find out what if anything was wrong with it.

flots.

[TSandM]

Well, the particular reason why I immediately thought this was a drill was that I have been asking my buddies to do drills with me recently, because I've gotten rusty (as this incident clearly illustrated!) So I just thought Peter was cooperating . . .

With respect to the SMB, I think how you view that depends on how often you use them and how facile you are with it. I was basically taught that, any time you have to do a no-reference ascent, you should shoot a bag. I have shot a lot of them, and done things like air-sharing ascents while controlling a maskless diver and managing a bag, so I'm not very worried about getting tangled up in it or having it affect my buoyancy control. But I AM susceptible to vertigo in midwater, and the last thing I want to do is start doing somersaults with someone on my gas who HAS to be there. For me, in the dark, the bag is by far the better choice.

Flots, as I posted some time back, the gas is being sent out for analysis, from that tank and also from the other tank we picked up that day (which had not been used).

[Peter Guy]

DD -- where we were diving is just a few hundred feet from a boat launch/fishing pier and we were out far enough that it would not be inconceivable for a boat to be coming in.

I would not want to ascend where we were without having either a line for reference OR an SMB to warn potential traffic.

[DandyDon]

I'll be looking closely to see how much that new Analox CO analyzer will cost.
Not enough to worry about I bet. Their first unit was a little over $300 so I bet the new one will be similarly priced. It'd be nice if one buddy could supply the Nitrox checker and the other the CO tester, instead of me having both - but my bud is loaning me $1,000 of tools I don't want to own for a couple of weeks. I get back at him now and then.

This incident may well have not involved CO, and there are many possibilities, but it'd be the first thing to check for. We have reliable, portable testers available, and it seems to be a common risk even tho not well appreciated by many long time divers. We used to not have the technology and they did their best.

There has been some claims as to how reputable the fill station is, but none about an inline CO monitor, and I gather from the replies that a portable CO tester was not either. :dontknow:

[dumpsterDiver]

DD -- where we were diving is just a few hundred feet from a boat launch/fishing pier and we were out far enough that it would not be inconceivable for a boat to be coming in.

I would not want to ascend where we were without having either a line for reference OR an SMB to warn potential traffic.

I'm not sure that an SMB would provide much protection from boat traffic at night unless it was lighted and even if it were lighted, it might serve more as an attraction to curious boaters than a warning. I'm sure that is a very good reason to stay submerged and to swim up the slope which was the correct decsion in my mind.

As I said before, if I did NEED an SMB, then my personal preference in a real emergency would be to get the victim up to say 15 ft and THEN mess with the reel and deployment. From this depth, if things go south, the recuerer could just man handle the victim and drag them to the surface.

This hesistancy to ascend with zero reference is something that is 180 degrees to my experience and perspective. When I was a young teenager, I remember being scared and hesitant to venture too far from the anchor line when wreck diving in NJ (in bad vis, dark water) because I hated swimming up alone with no reference, it was "scary".
After a few years of diving, I was able to develop the situational awarness to ascend solo in bad vis with no reference, no big deal. I personally feel that it is a basic skill necessary for safe diving.

I understand that if someone is extra susceptible to vertigo, then the ascent line becomes more than a casual preference. To me, that is not a huge "accomodation", but my personal preference would be to not "need" it if an emergency that requires direct ascent occurs. What if Peter had started to "Tox out", go into convulsions etc.? this would probably require the recuer's full attention and the smb reel would be discarded.

[Ayisha]

Please do post the results of your gas analysis when you get them, Lynn and Peter. I hope that it was not bad air, but if it was, that is a scary thought...

Is there any way you guys could push for in-line CO monitors at dive shops in the U.S.? Even state-by-state if not country wide? Also more stringent requirements in the level of CO in recreational air tanks than the current 10 ppm?

It is possible. Here in Ontario, it has been pushed by the Ministry of Labour for all recreational dive shops to have in-line CO monitors over the last couple of years, so almost all of them do. All my LDS's have inline CO monitors. The max acceptable level of CO in compressed air for recreational divers is 5 ppm (0 ppm for commercial). The in-line CO monitor requirement for recreational dive shops is supposed to be written into the regulation by this December, so hopefully that will become official.

Whatever the testing shows, this is a good opportunity to really think about legislating in-line CO monitors in the U.S. and other countries. The dive shops are not going to want it - the divers have to demand it! And show your support for those shops that have an in-line CO monitor with your wallet...

[TSandM]

DD, not many people out there have had the problems with vertigo that I have had. At one point, I was fairly sure that I would never be able to cave or tech dive because of it. I have much better coping skills now, but I would prefer not to need them. Shooting a bag at depth was going to take one stressor out of the situation for me -- I would have a reference for vertical. As I have said before, one doesn't have to spool up the line while ascending -- it can be pulled up from the surface at the end. If Peter needed physical assistance during the ascent, I could let go of the line. If I lost it, that would be one more step into the incident pit . . . but that's a lot of failures.

I have previously demonstrated the ability to perform rescue skills in midwater (for my tech class) but that was in daylight. At night, I could probably do it, but why not hedge my bets?

Anybody who dives with me knows about my vertigo issues. I don't hide it.

[Peter Guy]

I actually have no idea if the LDS has an inline CO monitor -- nor do I know if the O2 supplier has one when filling its O2 bottles.

IF there was contamination (and I really think the most likely situation is that I ran into something OR I just hallucinated!) it is unlikely we'll ever know if the issue was the compressor at the LDS or the O2 supplier.

[DandyDon]

I actually have no idea if the LDS has an inline CO monitor -- nor do I know if the O2 supplier has one when filling its O2 bottles.

IF there was contamination (and I really think the most likely situation is that I ran into something OR I just hallucinated!) it is unlikely we'll ever know if the issue was the compressor at the LDS or the O2 supplier.
Well, honestly - I know that y'all regard the shop highly, but untested gas is unknown. More of a risk in the tropics, but still...?

[dumpsterDiver]

DD, not many people out there have had the problems with vertigo that I have had. At one point, I was fairly sure that I would never be able to cave or tech dive because of it. I have much better coping skills now, but I would prefer not to need them. Shooting a bag at depth was going to take one stressor out of the situation for me -- I would have a reference for vertical. As I have said before, one doesn't have to spool up the line while ascending -- it can be pulled up from the surface at the end. If Peter needed physical assistance during the ascent, I could let go of the line. If I lost it, that would be one more step into the incident pit . . . but that's a lot of failures.

I have previously demonstrated the ability to perform rescue skills in midwater (for my tech class) but that was in daylight. At night, I could probably do it, but why not hedge my bets?

Anybody who dives with me knows about my vertigo issues. I don't hide it.

I think that is a reasonable emergency proceedure: attempt to quickly send up the smb and if things go south super fast on the bottom, then drop the reel and try to ascend along the line.

Of course, if this were to occur over a sloping bottom in a current, then the reel and smb could be drug into shallower water, allowing the line to go slack when the reel rests momentarily on the bottom which could facilitate entanglement during the ascent along a slack line. Then in my worst case scenario.... the reel snags on the bottom, while the loose line is wrapped around the victim and now the victim is being drug downward by the current because he is tethered to the bottom by the reel and the line. :shakehead::shakehead::D:D


Then again if all that were to happen on one dive, maybe your time was up anyway. I am just so paranoid of loose line in the water. I have seen so many problems occur that were almost unbelievable with divers and slack lines etc.

[sambolino44]

My buddy and I have been working on air share, SMB deployment, and controlled ascent. So far we aren't proficient enough to combine them all, so we separate each skill and are building up to it. Our last skills dive showed that we need work on hovering at 15' with no visual reference. My point of all this is to say that I feel I have an understanding of the skills and hazards involved, also I feel I have a pretty good familiarity with Lynne's skill level and thought process.

It seems to me that DumpsterDiver has more issues with line entanglement than with free ascent, and Lynne is more concerned with her vertigo issues, and she's more comfortable with the SMB. All of y'all have way more experience than me, so just take this as an observation.

In my limited experience dealing with emergencies, you're dealing with a confusing situation, and you're stressed, so it's a good idea to eliminate or reduce additional uncontrolled factors as much as possible. I think Lynne, whether she thought about it consciously, or just by instinct, decided she'd rather deal with the SMB than the free ascent. Her comfort level in all this is pretty important.

As to the source of the problem, somebody posted that they hope it wasn't bad air. Considering the other possibilities (pollution in the water, Peter hallucinating, etc.) bad air might just be the least bad cause. Unless it was that habanero chile relleno he had an hour before.

[Soakedlontra]

My buddy and I have been working on air share, SMB deployment, and controlled ascent. So far we aren't proficient enough to combine them all, so we separate each skill and are building up to it. Our last skills dive showed that we need work on hovering at 15' with no visual reference. My point of all this is to say that I feel I have an understanding of the skills and hazards involved, also I feel I have a pretty good familiarity with Lynne's skill level and thought process.

It seems to me that DumpsterDiver has more issues with line entanglement than with free ascent, and Lynne is more concerned with her vertigo issues, and she's more comfortable with the SMB. All of y'all have way more experience than me, so just take this as an observation.

In my limited experience dealing with emergencies, you're dealing with a confusing situation, and you're stressed, so it's a good idea to eliminate or reduce additional uncontrolled factors as much as possible. I think Lynne, whether she thought about it consciously, or just by instinct, decided she'd rather deal with the SMB than the free ascent. Her comfort level in all this is pretty important.

As to the source of the problem, somebody posted that they hope it wasn't bad air. Considering the other possibilities (pollution in the water, Peter hallucinating, etc.) bad air might just be the least bad cause. Unless it was that habanero chile relleno he had an hour before.

Ultimately you have to pick your battle (SMB versus controlled ascent without a point of resference) according to what makes you more comfortable and the environmental conditions.

The SMB is not visible at night but divers' lights are.:)

If there were oil in the water I guess you would have smelled it on the rest of your gear.

Why hallucinating? Because of Nitrogen Narcoses?

[Scott L]

My dive partners often have bad gas. :D

[NWGratefulDiver]

Well, the particular reason why I immediately thought this was a drill was that I have been asking my buddies to do drills with me recently, because I've gotten rusty (as this incident clearly illustrated!) So I just thought Peter was cooperating . . .

Having witnessed the exchange, I have to chuckle when I read that comment.

It took Lynne all of about five seconds ... well, OK, maybe six or seven seconds ... to see a flashing light, turn around, swim to someone else's dive buddy, and get a regulator to that person. It then took her almost three or four more seconds to realize that she hadn't deployed the entire length of the hose, and another couple of seconds to correct that error.

Yup ... she's rusty as all hell ... I dunno why I even dive with her ... :rofl3:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[SC_Hoaty]

Wish my dive buddy was that rusty! Hell - wish I was that rusty!

[TSandM]

Bob, that's very sweet!

You've never met Danny Riordan, but Danny would have had my gizzard for lunch if he'd watched that whole little interchange. I can hear him now . . .

[Soakedlontra]

Sam and I are wondering if you know the results of your air analysis...

[TSandM]

Not yet. The owner wasn't staffing the dive shop this weekend, when we went in for fills. We'll talk to him this week.

[Garth]

One very important skill. Shooting SMB at night in mid water. I know it shouldn't be different but I plan to practice more at night because of a recent incident I had shooting a bag in the dark. I decended below my acceptable limit and was surprised at how it all happened.

Things to think about...

[TSandM]

I've been drilled and drilled on SMB shoots . . . I agree that shooting them in the dark, or in midwater without a reference, is a definite learned skill.

[sambolino44]

Yes, it's surprising how quickly you get away from your neutrally buoyant depth when you are concentrating on something else. I think more experience will make it easier to maintain depth without putting much mental energy into it; it just becomes second nature. Kind of like being able to keep the car in the center of the lane while looking around; new drivers aren't very good at it, but experience drivers can look around and keep the car centered.

[Soakedlontra]

Yes, it's surprising how quickly you get away from your neutrally buoyant depth when you are concentrating on something else.

and if you add current and darkness jeezz...:bat:

[Inalara]

Out of curiousity, did anything come back from the testing on this?

[Peter Guy]

Ina -- Thanks for bringing this back because we did get the results back a few days ago -- drum roll -- ALL CLEAR!

This reinforces my thought that I ran into something funny in the water -- or just got spooked, or both!

[Soakedlontra]

Ina -- Thanks for bringing this back because we did get the results back a few days ago -- drum roll -- ALL CLEAR!

This reinforces my thought that I ran into something funny in the water -- or just got spooked, or both!

Good to read that the air turned out to be not the cause of your indisposition!

[iztok]

Ina -- Thanks for bringing this back because we did get the results back a few days ago -- drum roll -- ALL CLEAR!

This reinforces my thought that I ran into something funny in the water -- or just got spooked, or both!

I for one am grateful that

1. you are ok
2. your shop didn't mind doing the testing and informed you of the results (I am assuming here that they would report both outcomes good or bad)

[TSandM]

We deal with a good shop . . . I think the owner was more upset at the thought that there might have been something wrong with the fill than we were. I would have been very surprised had the analysis found anything untoward.

[iztok]

We deal with a good shop . . . I think the owner was more upset at the thought that there might have been something wrong with the fill than we were. I would have been very surprised had the analysis found anything untoward.

I like where people take ownership of things.