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Quero
September 23rd, 2010, 08:38 AM
Can somebody clue me in to what this is? I have a request from a pair of divers for tanks with this sort of valve: DIN 25 x 2. I would like to be able to answer, but I am lost as to what this refers to. We have tanks with DIN valves, but I thought they were "universal," and in fact everybody who has come here to dive needing DIN valves has had no trouble with them. These divers are from Greece, if that helps at all.

knowone
September 23rd, 2010, 09:21 AM
Europeans and the English utilise that neck thread where the external valve thead diameter is 24 mm approx with no burst disc called M25.
Aussies and Yanks use a valve that is 26 mm and call it 3/4.
DIN hole is the same.
Can be ugly. Smart huh?
Faber makes them all.

Tortuga68
September 23rd, 2010, 09:47 AM
The EU introduced a 26x2 standard a couple of years ago for EAN or O2

Anyway good news is your usual DIN tanks should be fine

Quero
September 23rd, 2010, 10:27 AM
Anyway good news is your usual DIN tanks should be fine
You really think so? :confused: These divers want Nitrox in big tanks (15 liter), and they specifically asked for the 25 x 2, so I know they must be worried their regs won't fit. I would hate for them to be on the boat with a half dozen tanks they couldn't hook up to.

I'd like a whole mass of reassurance, if those of you in the know can provide it :blind:

rjack321
September 23rd, 2010, 12:47 PM
You really think so? :confused: These divers want Nitrox in big tanks (15 liter), and they specifically asked for the 25 x 2, so I know they must be worried their regs won't fit. I would hate for them to be on the boat with a half dozen tanks they couldn't hook up to.

I'd like a whole mass of reassurance, if those of you in the know can provide it :blind:

If you have standard 200 or 300 bar 5/8" BSP "DIN" fittings like we all use you'll be fine. That's what they want.

The EU came up with a dumb "DIN26" fitting a few years ago. Its supposedly dedicated to nitrox use - it superficially looks like a 5/8" DIN but its slightly oversized to segregate air from nitrox. I don't think its really taken off, probably still in the phase in period and seems to be targeting commercial divers not recreational divers anyway. Its hard to tell as I'm in Seattle, WA, USA not the EU.

Regardless by asking for "DIN25" I am pretty sure they want the old DIN threads that the rest of the world knows and loves. Technically its not DIN25 but it seems to be common slang for the old size which in the EU is supposedly only for air now.

knowone
September 23rd, 2010, 12:48 PM
It is 26x2 not 25x2

rjack321
September 23rd, 2010, 12:58 PM
It is 26x2 not 25x2

I read that Quero's customers wanted two "DIN25" tanks but maybe that's not what they meant. 25mm and 5/8" BSP are close to the same ruler dimensions.

Quero
September 23rd, 2010, 01:42 PM
They specifically asked for 25 x 2. One of them is a tech instructor in Greece, so I don't think he misspoke.

We don't assign these numerical tags to the name... we just call 'em DIN, plain and simple. Maybe it's because we can't buy tanks rated to 300 bar pressure (let's see... that would be close to 4500 psi, roughly), so we don't use the 7-thread valves at all, and we haven't adopted the new EU standard for enriched air tanks, so we don't have more than one kind of DIN to refer to.

I'm tending to agree with rjack321 here that they are looking for the "traditional" DIN valves, specifically because they have asked for Nitrox and want to make sure we don't have the new valves on our tanks. The fog is lifting, guys, and I really appreciate the fog lights you've shone on the landscape for me! I've got to find them 22 tanks, and I want them to be the right tanks!

Tortuga68
September 23rd, 2010, 01:44 PM
It is 26x2 not 25x2

As has been mentioned, the EU has both now. M25 is the 'normal' fitting, before the EAN M26 fitting was introduced

We're talking about the reg fitting not the tank neck. What are they going to do, bring their own tank valves to put on Quero's tanks?

I think their concern is that Quero might follow EU rules and have M26 tank valves for EAN, in which case their 'standard' M25 regs wouldn't fit

Here's an EU spec M26 EAN reg: Apeks Products (http://www.apeks.co.uk/products/product_cats_results.asp?Lan=eng&Product=Flight%20Nitrox%20M26%20First%20Stage&Category=First%20Stages)

Rainer
September 23rd, 2010, 01:45 PM
Why not just ask them to clarify what they're looking for?

Quero
September 23rd, 2010, 01:59 PM
Why not just ask them to clarify what they're looking for?

I did. He sent me a link to about.com to learn about the difference between yoke and DIN tank fittings, LOL. (It takes a certain amount of finesse to negotiate meaning with people for whom English is not a first language.)



I think their concern is that Quero might follow EU rules and have M26 tank valves for EAN, in which case their 'standard' M25 regs wouldn't fit


I'm thinking this is the case as well. I didn't know that the EU had this new valve size, and the information I got here cleared that right up.

Thanks again! Not only did I learn something new (M26 valves), but I'm confident I now understand my customer's needs, and I'll do everything possible to fulfill them.

Rainer
September 23rd, 2010, 02:03 PM
Why not just send him back a link with the M26 vs M25 valves and make sure it's the M25 that he wants?

rjack321
September 26th, 2010, 01:38 PM
As has been mentioned, the EU has both now. M25 is the 'normal' fitting, before the EAN M26 fitting was introduced

We're talking about the reg fitting not the tank neck. What are they going to do, bring their own tank valves to put on Quero's tanks?

I think their concern is that Quero might follow EU rules and have M26 tank valves for EAN, in which case their 'standard' M25 regs wouldn't fit

Here's an EU spec M26 EAN reg: Apeks Products (http://www.apeks.co.uk/products/product_cats_results.asp?Lan=eng&Product=Flight%20Nitrox%20M26%20First%20Stage&Category=First%20Stages)

You are mixing up the tank necks and the DIN outlets.
M26 is a DIN outlet size. There are M25 X M26 valves: M25 tank neck to M26 DIN outlet.

"M25" is a tank neck size but Quero's customers are using this name to refer to the standard old style DIN outlet size which is really 5/8" BSP.

They don't care about tank necks. They want nitrox but with the old 5/8" size DIN outlet. This is not EU standard anymore even though its standard for the rest of the world. They were trying to be specific about the tank outlet they wanted but mistakenly used its measured metric size not the imperial size that the threads actually are.

idive2
September 27th, 2010, 10:39 AM
So DIN fitting divers and charters in some european countries were required to be
prepared for the DIN 26 connection when diving nitrox ? Sounds like a windfall of
new sales for the valve and fitting manufacturers. Is this a mandatory requirement
in all EU countries ?

rjack321
September 27th, 2010, 01:54 PM
So DIN fitting divers and charters in some european countries were required to be
prepared for the DIN 26 connection when diving nitrox ? Sounds like a windfall of
new sales for the valve and fitting manufacturers. Is this a mandatory requirement
in all EU countries ?

DIN26 fittings seem to only be a requirement for commmercial divers and for reg manufacturers in order to sell CE compliant nitrox regs. Seems that recreational divers are still using the "normal" 5/8-inch BSP DIN for nitrox, just like Quero's 2 Greek customers are bringing/using.

Tortuga68
September 28th, 2010, 08:48 AM
"M25" is a tank neck size but Quero's customers are using this name to refer to the standard old style DIN outlet size which is really 5/8" BSP

Isn't it the other way around - 5/8" is really M25?

Much as I hate using wiki as a reference, it was the first link that came up: Pillar valve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillar_valve)

Anyway the main point is that Quero's tanks will fit her customer's regs

rjack321
September 28th, 2010, 11:55 AM
Isn't it the other way around - 5/8" is really M25?

Much as I hate using wiki as a reference, it was the first link that came up: Pillar valve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillar_valve)

Anyway the main point is that Quero's tanks will fit her customer's regs

Nope a "normal" 200 or 300 bar DIN valve has 5/8" british standard pipe threads. Its not metric threads or dimensions at all despite being a deutsche institute norm (aka DIN) or German Institute of Standards in English.

M25 is a metric tank neck size which is just every so slightly larger than the imperial 3/4" national pipe thread straight.

cool_hardware52
September 28th, 2010, 12:25 PM
Can somebody clue me in to what this is? I have a request from a pair of divers for tanks with this sort of valve: DIN 25 x 2. I would like to be able to answer, but I am lost as to what this refers to. We have tanks with DIN valves, but I thought they were "universal," and in fact everybody who has come here to dive needing DIN valves has had no trouble with them. These divers are from Greece, if that helps at all.

Your customers *May* be looking for a pair of Cylinders with M25 x 2 threads so they can double them up with a manifold they bring with them..........

Tobin

Tortuga68
September 28th, 2010, 10:14 PM
I don't know if you guys clicked on the link I posted, but this is (in part) what it says:


* 232 bar DIN (5-thread, metric M 252)

* 300 bar DIN : (7-thread, metric M 252)

The new European Norm EN 144-3:2003 introduced a new type of valve, similar to existing 232 bar or 300 bar DIN valves, however, with a metric M 262 fitting on both the cylinder and the regulator... From August 2008, these new valves shall be required for all diving equipment used with Nitrox or pure oxygen

Seems pretty straightforward to me

rjack321
September 30th, 2010, 11:36 AM
For some reason I doubt that different tank neck threads (not the normal M25 metric neck) are being used for nitrox valves. That would require a whole new fleet of tanks not just valves. And for instance Luxfer doesn't make a M26 neck just M25. I can't tell neck thread sizing on the Faber website and don't really want to figure out all the EU cylinder manufacturers.

But what the hell do I know, even the EU folks can't seem to get the M26 nitrox stuff straight and I'm 9 time zones away from that mess :D

Quero
September 30th, 2010, 11:52 AM
The good news from this end is that your collective wisdom and a text message to a colleague who knows ALL this stuff (but who is working offshore in Qatar and is sometimes unreachable) set me on the correct knowledge path. I was able to find (the only) six 15 litre Nitrox-compatible tanks with DIN valves available on the island, so my customers were able to use those for their dives--we filled them at night. Our DIN valves are indeed the "standard" ones since there is no regulation stipulating valve size here in Thailand. My customers (an instructor + tech/wreck diver and his new bride) had a fantastic time diving with us here and are happy. Since the whole objective of my question here was to provide satisfaction to my customers, we are all winners in this thread.

Many, many thanks to all of you.

cool_hardware52
September 30th, 2010, 05:46 PM
Since the whole objective of my question here was to provide satisfaction to my customers, we are all winners in this thread.

Many, many thanks to all of you.

That's definitely the best approach in a service business.

Tobin

Mod63
September 30th, 2010, 05:58 PM
I don't know if you guys clicked on the link I posted, but this is (in part) what it says:

232 bar DIN (5-thread, metric M 252)

Seems pretty straightforward to meUnfortunately, Wikipedia is wrong. It is G5/8, not M25x2 for the valve to first stage connection. M25x2 is the tank to valve connection.

h90
October 2nd, 2010, 02:07 AM
The good news from this end is that your collective wisdom and a text message to a colleague who knows ALL this stuff (but who is working offshore in Qatar and is sometimes unreachable) set me on the correct knowledge path. I was able to find (the only) six 15 litre Nitrox-compatible tanks with DIN valves available on the island, so my customers were able to use those for their dives--we filled them at night. Our DIN valves are indeed the "standard" ones since there is no regulation stipulating valve size here in Thailand. My customers (an instructor + tech/wreck diver and his new bride) had a fantastic time diving with us here and are happy. Since the whole objective of my question here was to provide satisfaction to my customers, we are all winners in this thread.

Many, many thanks to all of you.

M25x2 is the neck of the tank (European), normal 200 (232) Bar DIN G5/8" 5 thread. 300 bar 7 thread.
I just bought 2 pcs of 300 bar 15 liter cylinder with TAG valve and both Thailand and foreign shops seem to confuse all the figures.

"Since the whole objective of my question here was to provide satisfaction to my customers, we are all winners in this thread." where is your shop?

Quero
October 2nd, 2010, 02:11 AM
where is your shop?
Phuket. Here are some details (http://maps.google.com/maps?client=safari&rls=en&q=GEkko%20scuba%20divers&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl).

h90
October 4th, 2010, 01:09 AM
Thanks, I'll keep your shop in mind! With that attitude I'll definitely dive with you (do you have a 15 l tank with M26x2 for me? hahahahaha just joking)

Tortuga68
February 19th, 2011, 06:31 PM
Apologies for bumping an old thread, but I wanted to try to provide a definitive answer in case someone searches on this topic again...

I believe this is what Quero's customers were talking about:

Scubaduikshop.nl, voor al uw duikmaterialen! (http://www.scubaduikshop.nl/shop/product_info.php?cPath=2_45&products_id=518)

http://www.scubaduikshop.nl/shop/popup_image.php?pID=518

It's an EU Nitrox DIN fitting designed (under CE spec) to prevent non-Nitrox regs being used on Nitrox tank valves

Not the tank neck thread

M25x2 is what the rest of the world knows as a 'standard' DIN fitting


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