poll: DM everywhere?

[Crush]

A recent thread really surprised me. The question which I was left contemplating was: "can any DM, trained anywhere, DM everywhere?"

Before all the warm-water DMs start deluging me with comments such as "DMing is all about leadership and ascertaining abilities...," please stop. My opinion is that if you have only ever experienced crystal-clear warm waters with negligible thermal protection, you can't DM a group wearing 7mm neoprene in swell.

Further, why would someone even think that they can travel to a warm-water destination and become a DM for all seasons? Is there a line of advertising to that effect?

Enough of what I think - what do you think?

Edit: please interpret the poll question as "should any DM be a DM anywhere?" not "can any DM be a DM anywhere?" (as written). Thanks for making the point, TMHeimer.

[TMHeimer]

My answer is symantics. If you're talking about legality (that's how it reads), I believe a DM trained anywhere CAN DM anywhere (if with the same agency, etc.).

Question 2 is also correct. He shouldn't do this until he has experience in the other place. Nor should shops hire him until he has such experience. Thus, I voted "other".

[Peter Guy]

mp -- this general issue comes up a lot and always reminds me of a discussion I had with an instructor who was the skipper of a crewed charter in the BVI. He had a lot of experience in the BVI -- over 1500 dives -- but what he really had was about 15 dives 100 times each.

We had many talks over the period of the week we were on the boat and he couldn't imagine diving in the conditions we normally dive. He was also well aware that if he ever came to a cold water place, even with 1500+ dives, he'd be a newbie.

[Hepcat62]

Based on my assumptions about the intended meaning of the first 2 choices, I voted "other".

DM training IS primarily focused on leadership (and liability). Skills development during my DM course was less a product of specific training, and rather a by-product or having to perform in real-world situations. Necessity is the mother of invention, as they say. The diving skills I improved while doing DM training are not the skills that most recreational divers immediately think of...

Anyway, my point is this. I believe that a DM can successfully DM anywhere that they are well and truly capable of diving at a professional level. That is to say, they should have a significant amount of experience diving in that location or very similar conditions, and they should be very familiar with the locations they will be DMing at, relevant emergency procedures, etc.

I dive and DM in Monterey, CA. Assuming that's where we're diving, I would happily dive with an experienced Monterey diver who decided to do their DM in warm water and come back. I would feel "a bit hesitant, but probably okay" about diving with an experienced warm water diver whose only experience in Monterey was DM training (probably depending on who trained them). I would be very concerned diving with a DM who had little to no Monterey experience and did DM training in clear warm water.

[DevonDiver]

The typical limitation of "within the limits of training and experience" should apply to divemasters as they do to any other scuba certification.

A divemaster can use their qualification anywhere in the world. However, they would have a responsibility to acquaint themselves appropriately in a new environment before adopting the role of a dive guide.

Whilst there are no strict limitations or regulations governing this, I think that it would be relatively well self-regulated by the fact that dive shops wouldn't employ a divemaster who was inexperienced in local diving conditions.

[Quero]

I want to answer 'all of the above' but since I can't, I've clicked the first choice and am now expanding the answer.

1) A DM can DM everywhere. There is no need to go through the entire training regimen and process of becoming a DM again and again depending on regional conditions. The DM course itself is more about leadership and theoretical knowledge than it is about region-specific skills. In other words, when a diver goes pro to become a DM, it doesn't matter much where that pro training takes place. I can't see issuing restrictions on DM certs, say Warm Water DM or Shore Diver DM or Quarry DM.

2) That said, a DM should only work in conditions and in areas for which s/he has been trained and has experience. If I were to go DM at a cold water destination, I would need additional experience, and perhaps training, in order to exercise my profession there. I don't have a huge number of dry suit dives, for example, or surf entries, though I have some. I've got enough experience to take care of myself, but not enough to put myself out there as an expert, which is the role of a DM. Suppose a diver who comes from PNW goes to Utila for the DM course. This diver has lots of low vis, cold water, shore entry experience. Should s/he only be allowed to DM in places similar to Utila?

3) Other: If a DM showed up here looking for work, even if s/he had been trained on the other side of the country in similar conditions to what we have here, I would expect that DM to learn the dive sites before putting him/her in the position of leading fun divers around those sites. Along the same lines, I wouldn't jump on a liveaboard in Komodo and think I was qualified to lead customers around dive sites I'm barely familiar with even though I'm confident of my skills in that kind of big current environment.

[Crush]

We had many talks over the period of the week we were on the boat and he couldn't imagine diving in the conditions we normally dive. He was also well aware that if he ever came to a cold water place, even with 1500+ dives, he'd be a newbie.

Sort of reminds me of the grim reapers (beyond which I have not ventured) which remind us that OW training and gear is no substitute for cave training and gear. Without wanting to embarrass any specific poster, I believe that venturing into cold, deep water without, say, knowing how to deal with a free-flow is almost (but not quite) as stupid as going into a cave without training.

As per my original post, why would someone even think that they can travel to a warm-water destination and become a DM for all seasons? Is there some "dive warm, blue water and teach around the world" promotional video that I have missed out on?

[Quero]

Without wanting to embarrass any specific poster, I believe that venturing into cold, deep water without, say, knowing how to deal with a free-flow is almost (but not quite) as stupid as going into a cave without training.
But you see, simply because a DM was trained in a tropical location does not entail that s/he doesn't know how to deal with a free flow. This knowledge may even have been acquired at the Open Water level if the initial training was in some quarry in upstate New York. This is what I see as problematic with the poll. It mentions DM training, not diver experience. IMO it matters not too much where the DM was trained. What matters much more is what varied experiences the DM has in addition to his/her DM training.

[Crush]

But you see, simply because a DM was trained in a tropical location does not entail that s/he doesn't know how to deal with a free flow.

True.

What percent of divers, trained in tropical locations, even know what a free-flow is? Surprisingly few divers trained in cold-water locales have been taught how to deal with this situation. Recent posts indicate that DM candidates, having received the breadth of their experience in clear, warm waters, are having a hard time adjusting to the waters in which they will be assuming responsibility for the safety of others.

[Kern]

True.

What percent of divers, trained in tropical locations, even know what a free-flow is? Surprisingly few divers trained in cold-water locales have been taught how to deal with this situation. Recent posts indicate that DM candidates, having received the breadth of their experience in clear, warm waters, are having a hard time adjusting to the waters in which they will be assuming responsibility for the safety of others.

In relation to free flows I think you're getting a bit carried away. As most OW students don't know how to handle a reg. in a way that will prevent a pressure differential from developing within the 2nd stage, that will cause it to free flow, most will learn how to shut it down. Sure, they're unlikely to experience a freeze in either 1st or 2nd, but tell me, how do you deal with a frozen 1st or 2nd, in open water, with a single tank? Do you really think they couldn't figure out where was the best place to be if they couldn't shut a free flow down?

[Thalassamania]

Most cold water DMs would very quickly be able to DM in warm locations, but the opposite is not true. That's mainly an SA, dry suit or thick wetsuit and buoyancy/trim thing.

[Quero]

True.

What percent of divers, trained in tropical locations, even know what a free-flow is? Surprisingly few divers trained in cold-water locales have been taught how to deal with this situation. Recent posts indicate that DM candidates, having received the breadth of their experience in clear, warm waters, are having a hard time adjusting to the waters in which they will be assuming responsibility for the safety of others.

All of mine know about free flows, and this water here is about as warm and clear as it gets! Dealing with a free flow is a skill that is obligatory according to the standards for my agency. We practice it only in the pool, however, since we don't want to deplete students' air supplies in the Open Water dives. Even though we are in a tropical locale, I recognize that some of my students will go on to dive in cold water environments and may need to utilize this skill, so in addition to practicing, we talk about the fact that most free flows occur in cold water, and why.

In relation to your observation that some DMs may need an adjustment period before they can undertake professional duties in a new environment, I don't doubt that this happens. But that doesn't mean they can't add to their repertoire of skills and be just as effective once they have gained experience as a DM who had exclusive training in a cold water environment.

Here on SB we routinely make comparisons between dive (SCUBA) skills and driving (a vehicle) skills, so here's one that I see as rather parallel. In North America and many other parts of the world people drive on the right hand side of the road with the steering wheel on the left side of the car and the gear shift to their right. I learned to drive under those conditions, and in snow. In half of the countries in which I've lived (three of the six), however, we drive on the left side of the road with the steering wheel on the right side of the car and the gear shift to the left. When I moved from Rio de Janeiro Brazil to London England years and years ago and got a UK driver's license, nobody asked me to retrain for driving on the other side of the road even though it's definitely different. It took some adjustment, especially shifting a manual transmission left handed, but these adjustments were minor in comparison with my understanding of the rules of the road, how to react in the case of an incident, etc. Similarly, no amount of driving in snow and on ice, as stressful as it is, could have prepared me for the chaos that is driving in a big Brazilian city, even on the same side of the road! But still, I was issued a DL and allowed out on the streets, where I carefully and conscientiously acquired the additional skills I needed to be a successful driver there (including growing eyes in the back of my head).

I believe that a well trained DM can make similar adjustments and become a fine dive pro in a new environment regardless of where the DM training has taken place. It just appears to me that some people paint with a rather broad brush when they seem to suggest that no warm-water trained DM should be allowed to work in a cold water environment.

[Quero]

Most cold water DMs would very quickly be able to DM in warm locations, but the opposite is not true. That's mainly an SA, dry suit or thick wetsuit and buoyancy/trim thing.

I agree with this. I also think that in addition there's increased psychological stress in cold water and/or low vis. It's harder to slow your breathing down to a yogic rhythm if your muscles are all locked up with cold, and it's harder to think and plan ahead if you can't see ahead.

Still, I believe that while these can present real challenges, they should not disqualify a tropical DM with good people/leadership skills and with a willingness to acquire additional cold-water dive skills from seeking employment in a cold water location.

[bowlofpetunias]

In relation to your observation that some DMs may need an adjustment period before they can undertake professional duties in a new environment, I don't doubt that this happens. But that doesn't mean they can't add to their repertoire of skills and be just as effective once they have gained experience as a DM who had exclusive training in a cold water environment.

Here on SB we routinely make comparisons between dive (SCUBA) skills and driving (a vehicle) skills, so here's one that I see as rather parallel. In North America and many other parts of the world people drive on the right hand side of the road with the steering wheel on the left side of the car and the gear shift to their right. I learned to drive under those conditions, and in snow. In half of the countries in which I've lived (three of the six), however, we drive on the left side of the road with the steering wheel on the right side of the car and the gear shift to the left. When I moved from Rio de Janeiro Brazil to London England years and years ago and got a UK driver's license, nobody asked me to retrain for driving on the other side of the road even though it's definitely different. It took some adjustment, especially shifting a manual transmission left handed, but these adjustments were minor in comparison with my understanding of the rules of the road, how to react in the case of an incident, etc. Similarly, no amount of driving in snow and on ice, as stressful as it is, could have prepared me for the chaos that is driving in a big Brazilian city, even on the same side of the road! But still, I was issued a DL and allowed out on the streets, where I carefully and conscientiously acquired the additional skills I needed to be a successful driver there (including growing eyes in the back of my head).

I believe that a well trained DM can make similar adjustments and become a fine dive pro in a new environment regardless of where the DM training has taken place. It just appears to me that some people paint with a rather broad brush when they seem to suggest that no warm-water trained DM should be allowed to work in a cold water environment.


I like your analogy here Quero!

I find it interesting how many people seem to think diving/driving in whatever environment they come from requires/develops higher skill sets than elsewhere.

IMHO once skill sets are established the necessary time to adapt to new environs is likely to be determined by the adaptability of the individual. Some people may adapt with little effort others may struggle and others may not be able to adapt.

My answer is other.....

Leadership, responsibility, situational awareness, "reading" people well enough to anticipate problems, ability to think clearly under stress are not impacted by local conditions. Clearly the ability to function as a professional in the location where they DM must be developed prior to taking responsibility for the safety of others in that environment.

Just as a DM or dive Operator needs to assess the skills of their diving customers in the water... I believe divers also need to assess the skills of their DM's in the water. In the end we must dive wihin our abilities and never forget that we are responsible for keeping ourselves safe. We should not trust anyone based on what certificates they have or the experience they claim to have.

[Hepcat62]

I believe that a well trained DM can make similar adjustments and become a fine dive pro in a new environment regardless of where the DM training has taken place. It just appears to me that some people paint with a rather broad brush when they seem to suggest that no warm-water trained DM should be allowed to work in a cold water environment.


Still, I believe that while these can present real challenges, they should not disqualify a tropical DM with good people/leadership skills and with a willingness to acquire additional cold-water dive skills from seeking employment in a cold water location.

I think that most people in this thread are of the opinion that it's training PLUS diving experience that matters. If a great DM from a warm-water location comes out to - for example - Monterey, does 20-30 dives, works out the kinks and learns the area, then sure - why not? A couple of OW class assists later, and I'm sure they're at least a fine cold-water DM at that point and getting better all the time.

The only thing I think people are against is a DM with little or no familiarity with a certain area or type of diving performing in a DM/leadership capacity in that situation. Once they've got the experience, it's a non-issue.

To use your car example - a driving instructor from the US should reasonably be expected to spend at least a little while driving in the UK before acting as a driving instructor there. Obviously to get used to the big physical differences you described, but also to learn the local "rules of the road" - the more subtle things that make you a productive driver in the area.

[Quero]

I think that most people in this thread are of the opinion that it's training PLUS diving experience that matters.

The only thing I think people are against is a DM with little or no familiarity with a certain area or type of diving performing in a DM/leadership capacity in that situation. Once they've got the experience, it's a non-issue.
That's excellent, hepcat62, and it's a position I can endorse. In fact, I believe it's true independent of water temperature.

However, it's not what the survey asks, and I didn't read anything into it beyond what it says:

One should only DM in conditions similar to that in which they trained (or easier We were asked to reinterpret the first answer choice, but not the second. If the second read One should only DM in conditions in which s/he can demonstrate expertise I would have marked only that one rather than wanting to mark all three. I simply hold that whether a DM gets his/her training in a warm-water location is not the real issue.

The answer choices are followed up in the OP by this sentence:
why would someone even think that they can travel to a warm-water destination and become a DM for all seasons?People from all sorts of backgrounds travel to tropical locations for DM training, many of them cold-water divers to begin with (and I know this from personal experience). These DMTs have various motivations for traveling to a warm-water destination for their training, including cost, year-round availability of open water dive sites, intensive training over a shorter period rather than weekend training over a very long period, access to a greater number of students, etc. Simply because some DM trainees find that a warm-water training setting meets their professional development needs is no reason to assume they should not be able to look for jobs when they go back home to their cold water regions.

[hg frogman]

The typical limitation of "within the limits of training and experience" should apply to divemasters as they do to any other scuba certification.

A divemaster can use their qualification anywhere in the world. However, they would have a responsibility to acquaint themselves appropriately in a new environment before adopting the role of a dive guide.

Whilst there are no strict limitations or regulations governing this, I think that it would be relatively well self-regulated by the fact that dive shops wouldn't employ a divemaster who was inexperienced in local diving conditions.

I completely agree. Most dive shops (at least those who know what they are doing :)) don't hire a DM with not enough logged dives (60 to start seems ridiculously low to me, apart from specific cases of local people employment), not enough experience of local conditions, and no accurate knowledge of the local dive sites.

Practically speaking, there is an implicit "hierarchy" of dive guides (who can be certified as DMs or instructors, that's not the point). The most experienced are considered as able to be "chief guide" on live-aboards, with the others being "deputy guide(s)" or even "trainee guide(s)" (despite being formally certified as DMs or instructors), when there is more than one guide on the live-aboard, which is not uncommon. In other words, dive centers normally dispatch work according to the guides' experience, and top level guides can be "chief guides" on live-aboards.

This thread has risen another issue that I find controversial : cold water vs warm water divers. Yes cold water has specific issues, eg numbness and buoyancy control, that make assistance more awkward (all else equal), but warm waters (eg Indonesia) can have their own issues as well (currents !). In both cases, the learning curve for diving/guiding in new/unusual conditions takes some time. In both cases, the possibilities of assistance have limits. Though cold water divers tend to consider they dive in more demanding environments, that may not always be the case. That depends. Let's stay humble in front of the vast seas.

[TraceMalin]

I voted "other" because the foundational skills acquired during DM training are the same everywhere for recreational diving as they pertain to rescues, dive planning, acting professionally, etc.

No matter where a DM works, there should be a period of in-service training to familiarize the DM with his or her roles and responsibilities, the local diving conditions, and time to gain experience in the waters in which he or she will be working. Depending upon the experience level of the DM, this in-service training may take days or weeks. As Thal said, a cold water DM will more easily adapt to warm water than the reverse. It may take a few days to orientate a cold water DM to a resort operator's reefs, whereas, a DM with no cold water experience will need time to adapt.

If an experienced cold water diver takes DM training in warm water, that diver can bring home the DM skills to familiar waters and apply them after some in-service training with a local operator. The DM may even have learned some things to make diving easier and more enjoyable for cold water divers from the warm water training experience.

You don't necessarily have to be initially trained in the environment in which you will be diving. You may learn more when you are warm and comfortable rather than frigid and miserable. It's easier to adapt a lesson to cold water than it is to apply a lesson you may not have learned well.

Where all recreational DM courses fall short of needed training is in regard to technical diving. You don't have to be a technical diver to be a DM, but you should know how to rescue one. The technical community has grown to the point that I believe every DM should know how to properly rescue divers with multiple gas bottles or rebreathers. As a DM you are the lifeguard. If divers are allowed to patron your operation with tech gear, you need to know how to save them.

As the sport evolves, I think we'll see this as a natural occurrence.

[dbulmer]

Trace,
I disagree - if divers have opted to dive with twinsets, DSMB on a boat with a DM on board it is not the responsibility of the DM to look after those divers in the water. The DM may be entitled to suggest overall dive times to fit in with the schedule of the boat operator and advise on local conditions which I feel are legitimate reasons but your suggestion is a step too far for me if it was to become the norm for diving.

I suspect your interest lies in promoting improved rescue skills and better boat handling procedures which I agree with but I fear for the sport if this was entrusted to DMs as a matter of course.

I think the best trained DMs have enough common sense knowledge to handle this but they would be under enormous pressure by the less than scrupulous operators out there - I suspect it might become a legal minefield with dive operators opting for procedures suiting the least common denominator or opting for little to no operating procedures.

[pir8]

Frankly I would think the key for a WW trained DM to work in a cold environment is to find someone to hire them!!!

[Thalassamania]

...
Here on SB we routinely make comparisons between dive (SCUBA) skills and driving (a vehicle) skills, so here's one that I see as rather parallel. In North America and many other parts of the world people drive on the right hand side of the road with the steering wheel on the left side of the car and the gear shift to their right. I learned to drive under those conditions, and in snow. In half of the countries in which I've lived (three of the six), however, we drive on the left side of the road with the steering wheel on the right side of the car and the gear shift to the left. When I moved from Rio de Janeiro Brazil to London England years and years ago and got a UK driver's license, nobody asked me to retrain for driving on the other side of the road even though it's definitely different. It took some adjustment, especially shifting a manual transmission left handed, but these adjustments were minor in comparison with my understanding of the rules of the road, how to react in the case of an incident, etc. Similarly, no amount of driving in snow and on ice, as stressful as it is, could have prepared me for the chaos that is driving in a big Brazilian city, even on the same side of the road! But still, I was issued a DL and allowed out on the streets, where I carefully and conscientiously acquired the additional skills I needed to be a successful driver there (including growing eyes in the back of my head). ...My Godfathers's a Brit. I think a lot of my crazier side I learned from him. He was a physician, an RAF Pilot who flew in the Battle of Britain, an ex-racing car driver (GT class at Le Mans amongst others), rode a Vincent Black Lightning and imported my Dunstall Norton Commando for me. All in all a pretty mechanical guy ... but ... I was riding with him in a left hand drive British sports car in San Jose, CA in the late 1960s, we were downtown early one Sunday morning, no traffic to speak of, he stopped to make a left hand turn from the left hand turn lane of a four lane artery and turned into the left hand lane of a similar artery, on the left side of center median. Now had there been traffic coming at us I suspect this would not have occurred, but the lack of that sort of a cue and being relaxed and in conversation, even for one as competent as he was, he screwed up, bad. No damage done, a quick U-turn, no cops around, but he was somewhat embarrassed. It can happen to the best.:D

I don't ride bikes much anymore, but I do have trouble with the left foot shift / right foot brake, having almost all of my riding experience on 1950s thru 1970s British bikes.

[Quero]

:biggrin: I have first-hand experience with that impulse, but I've never ended up on the wrong side of the road like that! The first few days after I arrive between countries with opposing left/right hand driving rules is when I need to be the most vigilant while behind the wheel. Turning into the wrong lane against oncoming traffic is one of the things I am especially careful about, particularly out of a driveway or from a one-way street, even in a car with the steering wheel on the standard (for the country) side of the car. I guess it comes down to reactivating dormant or long-unused neural circuits. Paying close attention and thinking things out ahead of time/rehearsing goes some way in strengthening the synapses, but it can take a while to get them fully active after a long period of disuse--or, in less lofty terms, to shake the rust off. What would the parallel for that be in DM training and professional performance?

[Thalassamania]

I've known warm water divers whose first response (often too late) is to try to use their lungs for buoyancy control when dry suit or wet suit compression occurs; and forget it when faced with a dry suit and a BP/w (or BC). Not to say they can't learn, but somehow they tend to almost always be just a tad behind the curve because their instincts betray them. Works the other way too. Last week I had a friend out here from New England, he almost never let go of his inflator.

[emilyrose]

I didn't vote at all, cause I really don't think I'm in any position to venture an opinion on this without a heck of a lot more experience, but after reading through this thread, I have a couple questions...

1. Isn't dealing with a free flow a basic skill in open water courses? At least, in PADI courses it's one of the required skills. And considering it's something I learned even before my first open water dive, around the same time I learned to clear my mask in the pool, do people really make it as far as divemaster without learning to do that? That's not to say the broader point isn't still valid just changing the example to maybe something involving drysuits or something, but do people really not know how to deal with a free flow?

2. Isn't part of the point of diving with a divemaster not just that they can help with any problems and such, but also that they know the area and where the best dive sites are, and can take you to cool sites (and get back to the boat again)?

[Quero]

I didn't vote at all, cause I really don't think I'm in any position to venture an opinion on this without a heck of a lot more experience, but after reading through this thread, I have a couple questions...

1. Isn't dealing with a free flow a basic skill in open water courses? At least, in PADI courses it's one of the required skills. And considering it's something I learned even before my first open water dive, around the same time I learned to clear my mask in the pool, do people really make it as far as divemaster without learning to do that? That's not to say the broader point isn't still valid just changing the example to maybe something involving drysuits or something, but do people really not know how to deal with a free flow?
Yes, it is a basic skill covered in the Open Water course. All divers should know how to deal with it and that they need to end their dive safely (or switch to a backup tank/reg) if this happens to them. Having said that, I think the point is that a DM who has done all of his/her diving and training from OW all the way through DM in warm water may never experience a free flow, and therefore won't reinforce the neural circuits and synapses to keep the skill sharp. So even though the skill has been taught, it may not actually be a solid part of the diver's repertoire.


2. Isn't part of the point of diving with a divemaster not just that they can help with any problems and such, but also that they know the area and where the best dive sites are, and can take you to cool sites (and get back to the boat again)? In many places this is indeed part of the DMs job. That's why if I hire a DM, I have to be sure that s/he not only has the skills to deal with things like currents and very deep sites and surge such as we have here, but also knows the dive sites well. A DM trained in Lake Michigan, for example, may not have the necessary skills or any understanding of the dive sites as soon as s/he shows up here on my Indian Ocean island, so this DM will need a certain adjustment period before becoming a fully empowered dive pro here. The same can be said for somebody I train here who wants to go work at Lake Michigan.

[Thalassamania]

A freeflow from an inverted regulator is not the same thing as a freeflow from a frozen regulator, the only part that is the same is the symptom of the problem, the response needs to be quite different.

[Quero]

A freeflow from an inverted regulator is not the same thing as a freeflow from a frozen regulator, the only part that is the same is the symptom of the problem, the response needs to be quite different. Very true. However, the required skill for Open Water concerns a free flow from a frozen or otherwise "stuck" reg, not a free flow from an inverted reg. Usually the issue of an inverted reg free flow, which is common in warm-water, will crop up at least once in an OW course, though, so it does get taught, even if somewhat less formally (i.e., it's not a specifically designated part of the curriculum, but it does get covered in the general equipment discussions).

[DevonDiver]

Very true. However, the required skill for Open Water concerns a free flow from a frozen or otherwise "stuck" reg, not a free flow from an inverted reg.

As an aside.....Frozen 'stuck'... not frozen 'cold'.

I tried to utilise the standard OW response (sip breathing) when my regs froze due to cold. I nearly lost my front teeth, due to the ice that formed on them. Fast flowing, ice cold air + water + teeth is a bad combination :shocked2:

Next time, I won't hesitate to get on an AAS.

[Thalassamania]

When I say frozen I mean ice cold, not mechanically compromised.

[emilyrose]

Wait, what does it even mean for a reg to be inverted? Definitely what we covered in my OW course involved the reg being "stuck" (actually, it involved holding down the purge button, but it was meant to simulate it being somehow stuck/broken), and I've never seen a free flow in any context other than intentional practice ones, in cold or warm water...

[Thalassamania]

Go to Tahoe in the winter and take an ice diving class.:D

[ZenDiver.3D]

I voted other. While the reality is that most DM's train in one type of environment and stay there or places like it, they should not be. A well trained DM has the experience and mastery in all conditions. They should be well trained and capable of handling warm clear water or cold low vis water. They should be well rounded as divers if they are carrying professional ratings.

The reality is that many DM's are provincial and do not really operate at the professional level out of their element. As a warm water location, we go down to the 10's c, here in the winter.
I made sure that I am steady using and training with my drysuit. I still prefer warm water, mind you. I make sure that I travel to other areas and keep All of my skills sharp. Many just are not in a position to do that.
But, if I were back DM'ing, and I moved to new location, I would still want to aquaint myself with it and the conditions of that area, as well as the needs of the divers. It is just professional to do that.

[DevonDiver]

They're a fact of life during winter fresh water diving. You can help avoid them by pre-warming your regs (at least not leaving them outside in the cold pre-dive) and also by amended your pre-dive safety check.

If free-flow occurs.... then, as I discovered, the standard technique for breathing from the free-flow is far from optimum.

All info that is 'expected knowledge' in a temperate/cold water DM.

[emilyrose]

Go to Tahoe in the winter and take an ice diving class.:D

Been there in the summer, and considering that even in summer I ran into the problem that with all the clothes I had on under my drysuit I couldn't fit enough weight in my BC (and btw, wearing a weight belt with a BC that's not meant to need one pretty much sucks), I don't think I'll be trying it in the winter any time soon...

[Thalassamania]

Dump the weight integrated BC, especially with a dry suit it is asking for problems. Go with a weight harness system and a regular BC or a BP/W, you'll be infinitely more comfortable and much better trimmed.

[Quero]

Wait, what does it even mean for a reg to be inverted? Definitely what we covered in my OW course involved the reg being "stuck" (actually, it involved holding down the purge button, but it was meant to simulate it being somehow stuck/broken), and I've never seen a free flow in any context other than intentional practice ones, in cold or warm water...
Sometimes when a reg enters the water with the mouthpiece facing up, even the small differential pressure makes the reg free flow. All you need to do is turn it over so the mouthpiece is facing down in the water. We see this a lot with the AAS on giant stride entries and even in the pool when I put the whole scuba unit in the water to don in the shallow end. Anyway, the sipping skill isn't needed for this kind of free flow.

[String]

I see pretty much daily the problem of DMs (and normal divers) learning in one place and struggling elsewhere.

Where i am currently i doubt there's an easier place on the planet to dive. We get calm seas, sheltered bays, pretty much zero current and visibility thats 10-30m every single day of the year. That and warm(ish) water. Its like a large swimming pool.

We get people learning here, heading elsewhere and rapidly getting caught out.

Worse are the "zero to hero" DM courses you see everywhere. These take people with no experience and train them up to a leadership level with no experience of any conditions except where they've trained. So you have DMs with no experience of currents, low vis, rough seas, large boats or cold water. Is anyone seriously claiming a person like that could or should take someone diving elsewhere without first learning the conditions and techniques themselves?
You don't learn adaptations like that in a book. Its only something you get through experience. And experience is only got by doing the actual dives in those actual conditions!

People coming from cold water, low vis, high current areas can adapt to benign really easily, the opposite takes a lot longer regardless of grade.

As for freeflows, the OW method although nice to look at doesnt really simulate a proper first stage ice up freeflow where the reg flows with so much force it comes out of the mouth and starts spinning round the head!

[hg frogman]

1. Isn't dealing with a free flow a basic skill in open water courses? At least, in PADI courses it's one of the required skills. And considering it's something I learned even before my first open water dive, around the same time I learned to clear my mask in the pool, do people really make it as far as divemaster without learning to do that? That's not to say the broader point isn't still valid just changing the example to maybe something involving drysuits or something, but do people really not know how to deal with a free flow?

2. Isn't part of the point of diving with a divemaster not just that they can help with any problems and such, but also that they know the area and where the best dive sites are, and can take you to cool sites (and get back to the boat again)?

These are very good questions.

1) Breathing from a free flowing regulator is taught during the OW course indeed. But practically speaking, when your buddy (or client) experiences a free flow, you'd better react as with an OOA (give him/her your octopus, then sort out what's going on with the free flow). And when it happens to yourself it's more comfortable to do like DevonDiver says, ie use your alternate air source. But in some exceptional situations it may save your life to be able to suck air from your free-flowing second stage, hence the interest of this skill.

By the way, in certain places around the world it's far from uncommon to experience a free flow from a junk rental regulator. This free flow is not due to the second stage being inverted, but merely to poor maintenance of the reg. But usually the flow is so much less than with a frozen stuck regulator that it cannot compare with it (and often it's the octo that free flows first). Bottom line is, when you rent a reg, check that it works properly before going underwater with it. (Hints: a) on land, breathe gently from your seconds, reg closed, no air should come in, it should feel like an OOA ; b) connect to a tank, open the valve, breathe, should feel fine, not hard to breathe ; c) still connected to an open tank's valve, immerse your seconds - not inverted - in a bucket of water, should not free-flow, either gently (intermittent bubbles) or strongly).

2) You are right, a divemaster is not here for "helping with any problem", but for GUIDING his/her CERTIFIED clients. That means chosing an adequate dive site, doing a decent briefing, providing surface security, (often but not always) showing the way underwater, making sure everybody is back on the boat, and stuff like that ... That doesn't mean wiping the a** of the clients (sorry if I am rude).

Of course a DM will try to help as much as possible, but sometimes it is simply not possible. A DM, however talented and experienced, cannot control everything underwater. "Formally", the job of a DM is not to give assistance to his/her clients if they are in trouble underwater. These clients are certified and should help and assist each others among buddies. This is most probably the line of defense that will be taken in court by the DM defenders in case of a fatality. The defense of the DM will be much harder if this DM showed a poor judgement in choosing the dive site (eg too difficult for the clients), provided an inadequate briefing, or didn't count the clients back on board ; but if the DM guides 8 people, with good conditions (viz, current ...), and the two last buddies at the back of the group get in trouble, can't help each other, and screw it up, the DM defenders will argue the DM is not responsible about the shortcomings of these divers, and in many cases they will win.

There is an interesting (and recent) thread on SB about this, I don't remember where. This thread shows that some clients are expecting total service, assistance and control from the DM (like if they weren't certified) while some others are expecting the DM to do merely his/her job of DM, ie providing the logistics and describing/showing the way to go. This discrepancy of expectations comes in my opinion from many, many OW divers with a few logged dives not being able to dive without very close supervision underwater, despite what training agencies may tell these divers about their capacities.

[emilyrose]

Dump the weight integrated BC, especially with a dry suit it is asking for problems. Go with a weight harness system and a regular BC or a BP/W, you'll be infinitely more comfortable and much better trimmed.

I like my BC :(
And I'm not really in a position to get a new one anytime soon anyway. But even if I were, the rental ones I used before I got my own, which didn't have integrated weights, were always too big, and the one I ended up with was the only one I could find that was small enough (and even so it takes some effort to adjust it small enough, which is as small as it will go, when I don't have a drysuit under it), so finding a different one might be easier said than done. Although I suppose it would probably be easier if I only needed it to fit over a drysuit. But in my BC's defense, the only reason I can't fit enough weight in it is that the smallest sizes have fewer weight pockets -- if I could wear one two sizes bigger I could fit more weight than I've ever needed...

[Crush]

They're a fact of life during winter fresh water diving. You can help avoid them by pre-warming your regs (at least not leaving them outside in the cold pre-dive) and also by amended your pre-dive safety check.

If free-flow occurs.... then, as I discovered, the standard technique for breathing from the free-flow is far from optimum.

All info that is 'expected knowledge' in a temperate/cold water DM.

Some advice on avoiding or dealing with cold-induced free-flow: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/350887-free-flow-what-do.html

Edit: DevonDiver, I am not assuming that you don't know how to deal with a free-flow. This is general FYI information for newer divers.

[Thalassamania]

I like my BC :(
And I'm not really in a position to get a new one anytime soon anyway. But even if I were, the rental ones I used before I got my own, which didn't have integrated weights, were always too big, and the one I ended up with was the only one I could find that was small enough (and even so it takes some effort to adjust it small enough, which is as small as it will go, when I don't have a drysuit under it), so finding a different one might be easier said than done. Although I suppose it would probably be easier if I only needed it to fit over a drysuit. But in my BC's defense, the only reason I can't fit enough weight in it is that the smallest sizes have fewer weight pockets -- if I could wear one two sizes bigger I could fit more weight than I've ever needed...... and if my Grandmother had two wheels she'd be a bicycle.:D

[DevonDiver]

Edit: DevonDiver, I am not assuming that you don't know how to deal with a free-flow. This is general FYI information for newer divers.

Sure :) To be honest, at the time that incident happened to me I didn't have much experience - only 80 dives and AOW qualification. I just did what I had been taught on my OW course, but it didn't work very well under those circumstances (sub-zero temperatures).

[orm]

We're all trained in one environment (usually). We are not trained to dive in other different environments. I couldn't go dive in an arctic lake without taking on local knowledge orientation and associated training if needed.

So as a diver, any diver that's trained in one environment doesn't automatically enable them to dive everywhere.

But a DM, should a DM work in environments not similar to where they've been trained? Well no, because of the point above.

Wether it's a DM, Instructor, Staff Instructor, Course Director, Cave Instructor, tec Deep instructor, Rebreather instructor... and on and on. The same applies right down the train to the most basic diving cert.


But there's a lot more to a DM than just knowing and dealing with local diving conditions.
I've said Yes because I'm isolating the point that all divers need to acquire the relevant skills to dive in their environment, but you have specifically singled out a DM, so I'm throwing my hat in the yes ring because having gained the local skills required to do the job, there's no reason why they can't work anywhere they want.

In fact the DM is trained to recognise the knowledge and training they will need to acquire the skill sets to accomplish the job. Usually :eyebrow:

[Crush]

Thanks for all the responses!

As I mentioned early on, this poll and thread were initiated because I found it confusing that new divers were choosing to go to beautiful, warm destinations to complete intensive DM training courses only to (in many cases) return to cold, murky water. My tacit assumption was that if they did not want to take DM training locally and gradually, they were at risk of assuming that they were qualified to DM anywhere just because they had a DM card. Can a DM, trained in warm water, learn to DM in cold water? I sure hope so. Will a zero-to-hero warm-water trained DM want to put in the necessary time to master his/her skills in a different environment before taking on paying clients? I personally do not think so.

[orm]

Thanks for all the responses!

My tacit assumption was that if they did not want to take DM training locally and gradually, they were at risk of assuming that they were qualified to DM anywhere just because they had a DM card.

Will a zero-to-hero warm-water trained DM want to put in the necessary time to master his/her skills in a different environment before taking on paying clients? I personally do not think so.

Pretty bold statements there.

Tell us why you think that Divemasters won't find time to master their skills to their new environment?

[Crush]

Pretty bold statements there.

Tell us why you think that Divemasters won't find time to master their skills to their new environment?

They were not statements - statements are assertions or declarations as fact, which is not the case in the text you quoted. Rather, they were my opinions, i.e., what I think about a person(s) or matter(s). Now, I could defend my opinion, but such a defence would be subjective and easy to attack by anyone whose opinion conflicts with my opinion.

Do your opinions differ from mine? If so, why? :)

[marinediva]

As I mentioned early on, this poll and thread were initiated because I found it confusing that new divers were choosing to go to beautiful, warm destinations to complete intensive DM training courses only to (in many cases) return to cold, murky water. My tacit assumption was that if they did not want to take DM training locally and gradually, they were at risk of assuming that they were qualified to DM anywhere just because they had a DM card. Can a DM, trained in warm water, learn to DM in cold water? I sure hope so. Will a zero-to-hero warm-water trained DM want to put in the necessary time to master his/her skills in a different environment before taking on paying clients? I personally do not think so.

Hi,
I moved to Sth coast of NSW just to cold water dive.
I felt after reading so much about the differences it was time to try it myself.
So I moved, and plan to be here for at least six more months to a year.
Threw in some study as well. Prior to diving here I had never been in water less than 24/22 degC.

It is not easy to dive in colder waters, lots of things are different.
In saying that, a good DM, should/would not take to long to get the hang of it.
Alternatively I feel it is very arrogant of others to suggest tropical waters are easy.
Let me take to on some dive spots in PNG and Nth Qld that are not easy at all.
They are very different from typical tropical dive, and one should have their wits about them.

Like anything really, there are very few jobs that you just walk into and not get some kind of induction. I do feel it is important that DM's have the ability to dive in a local area.

Also like most things some people take forever to adjust to new conditions and some people are very capable after just a few dives. I did struggle on my first couple of dives a lot. Mainly due to not wearing a hood, the extra weight, and a thicker wetsuit.
Tell you the truth I felt like Michelin Man in all the extra gear.
Absolutely hate the hood.
But I am now very use to it, and actually wonder what I am going to do without one in summer.

[DevonDiver]

Tell us why you think that Divemasters won't find time to master their skills to their new environment?

Most of the DMs that I saw training in Thailand only do so because they are on gap-year etc. Only a very small proportion of 'zero-to-hero' DMs progressed on to Instructor level. Of those, only a tiny minority are full-time dive instructors after a couple of years.

Certainly, very few of the DMs or Instructors I know in Asia even express a desire to dive in temperate waters, let alone work there.

[orm]

Most of the DMs that I saw training in Thailand only do so because they are on gap-year etc. Only a very small proportion of 'zero-to-hero' DMs progressed on to Instructor level. Of those, only a tiny minority are full-time dive instructors after a couple of years.

Certainly, very few of the DMs or Instructors I know in Asia even express a desire to dive in temperate waters, let alone work there.

True, there's an incredible amount of people going through their Divemaster globally. Some only want to do it there just to stay and work for a bit of money and don't intend on working anywhere else.

Thailand's a great place to do it because it's cheap to live, the lifestyle is great and the diving's pretty good.

But just because they did a 'zero to hero' course doesn't mean they're any less of a Divemaster or they can't work anywhere else. A good DM is a good DM, it doesn't really matter where they were trained.

Plus, more over DMs are being squeezed out as the amount of OWSIs roaming the planet has increased massively, it's incredibly difficult to get DM work now, unless you're super experienced and speak four languages.

[xjeslesx]

It all comes down to comfort.
Do I feel comfortable in 34F water and 2' of viz, yes.
Do I feel comfortable inside a cave, no.
People should only dm in conditions they are comfortable with, and that decision is up to each individual dm.

[DevonDiver]

I've seen DMs who didn't look comfortable in WATER. Where should they DM? lmao

[emilyrose]

I've seen DMs who didn't look comfortable in WATER. Where should they DM? lmao

Obviously they should only DM on dry land.

That's a scary thought though -- I'm already pretty comfortable in warm water apart from navigating (although a fair amount of my diving experience is in colder water, I still need a lot more practice with that... as far as navigating though, I can't do that on land either), and I can't imagine even thinking about considering becoming a DM without years more experience than I have now...