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View Full Version : Question about cave diving



Ith
September 29th, 2010, 11:48 AM
Hi, this is my first post on this forum. As you can see, I'm a new diver with few dives under my belt. I have heard horror stories about cave diving and have decided it is not for me. However, I know another diver who is only OW certified and has done some cave diving around the entrances and in caverns. I am concerned for him, but more so for who dives with him, one of my friends. She is brand new to diving. Just certified this summer. She went with him for her first dive after being certified to Morrison Springs. He led her into the cavern and she had an issue with integrated weights falling out of her rented BC. She had to abort the dive at this point. When I spoke to him about this later on, he showed a cavalier attude about the danger he put her in. I think it is very likely that he will continue to explore caverns and caves without certification.

After that long introduction, my question is this, what is the best way to impress upon someone the dangers of cave and cavern diving without proper training? I know he will balk at telling him that it is dangerous, so any advice will be greatly appriciated. Please include the cavern diving as I don't really know the different dangers between the two.

Thanks,

Ith

ucfdiver
September 29th, 2010, 12:01 PM
I think you need to show them that the dangers are real, and not over played.

Here's a page with accident data collection-
untitled (http://www.iucrr.org/report_a.htm)

Specifically, this incident would be of interest to your friend-
untitled (http://www.iucrr.org/20010309_01.htm)

Here's a rescue 911 episode that's good as well-
Pt1: YouTube - Rescue 911 - Episode 202 - "Scuba Cave" (Part 1 of 2) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkALlYZYfrc)
Pt2: YouTube - Rescue 911 - Episode 202 - "Scuba Cave" (Part 2 of 2) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzDL-rSAD3A&feature=related)

Scott
September 29th, 2010, 12:11 PM
A recent discussion about an untrained diver going into a cave
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/349414-vortex-missing-diver-incident-aug-2010-a.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/348860-accident-vortex-springs-8-20-10-a.html

Read this summary from International Underwater Cave Rescue and Recovery on fatalities
http://www.iucrr.org/fatalities.pdf

SuPrBuGmAn
September 29th, 2010, 12:14 PM
There used to be a sign at Morrison with the number of deaths that have occured there... I wish they'd reinstate that sucker.

Crush
September 29th, 2010, 12:21 PM
There is a difference between diving in a cavern or cave and diving near a cavern or cave. Let's assume that your friends are diving in a cavern or cave. Let's also assume that the diver who is leading your friend into peril is a male - we usually are the ones to do stuff like that. Let's finally assume that the male daredevil will not be swayed by reason or logic. Why don't you try to insult his manhood? As him if he has taken a cavern course. He will probably say "No" and that he doesn't need one because what he is doing isn't that dangerous. Again, don't appeal to reason - suggest that he might be afraid of taking a cavern course because he might not have what it takes, and that his skills are not sufficient to be a certified cavern diver. Bet him a case of beer that he can't handle it.

Finally, your friend who is following the daredevil is responsible for his/her own safety. you might be able to reason with this follower-friend, or perhaps using the same approach as that suggested for the daredevil might work.

In the above discussion I suggested a Cavern cert instead of a Cave cert because in most cases: (1) you begin with a Cavern cert first; and (2) some agencies will allow you to do a Cavern cert with your regular OW gear + some modifications that don't cost too much. The requirement to buy Cave gear might cause your daredevil friend to refuse such training based upon cost.

Ith
September 29th, 2010, 12:28 PM
Thanks for the quick replys guys.

I read through that entire Vortex thread yesterday and had some ideas as to what to say, but I almost don't want to point him to that thread because he might get the idea that because he learned a little in the thread he would know enough to actually go into a cave.

Mpetryk, I'm not sure I could pull off the challenge. He is the kind of guy who makes everything a joke and would easily do so.

Ith

ucfdiver
September 29th, 2010, 12:39 PM
Thanks for the quick replys guys.

I read through that entire Vortex thread yesterday and had some ideas as to what to say, but I almost don't want to point him to that thread because he might get the idea that because he learned a little in the thread he would know enough to actually go into a cave.

Mpetryk, I'm not sure I could pull off the challenge. He is the kind of guy who makes everything a joke and would easily do so.

Ith
Is he local to FL where one of us could take him diving, show him the different gear/skills, and possibly either discourage him or show him where to seek training?

Ith
September 29th, 2010, 12:58 PM
He is. I'll be talking with him on Thursday. I'll let you guys know how it goes. I'm also going to talk to my friend and her brother about this again.

SuPrBuGmAn
September 29th, 2010, 01:00 PM
I'll be at Vortex Friday night and at Morrison on Sunday morning, tell him/them to meet me out there and I'll explain why its important to have some training and the right gear.



If you can't reach the guy... focus on the girl.

Rather one 'tard getting hit up by Darwin rather than him taking another along for the ride.

ucfdiver
September 29th, 2010, 01:04 PM
He is. I'll be talking with him on Thursday. I'll let you guys know how it goes. I'm also going to talk to my friend and her brother about this again.
Sounds good. Let us know if we can help. I live about 20 minutes from Ginnie.


focus on the girl.
Already on it. asl?

hudson
September 29th, 2010, 02:20 PM
This too:
YouTube - A deceptively easy way to die (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVmqK5YZuxM)

GLENFWB
September 29th, 2010, 02:28 PM
It is great that you recognize the dangers. The reality is you might not have much luck with your friend who has such a "cavalier attitude", but it is worth trying. Remind him that actions like he took the other day have killed many divers. The 911 videos UCFDIVER posted are a great place to start. We had to watch those when I took my Cavern class.

I would explain that if he has no regard for his safety, at least consider the safety of others. I would certainly speak with the diver that had the problem in the cavern. Explain to her the complete stupidity of doing a "trust me" dive. At least for her this incident can possibly be a teachable moment. Many new divers still have a relationship with their instructor. Maybe their instructor could help impress on them the dangers of overhead environments.

Obviously how you say something can be as important as what you say. But don't worry about making your friend mad....just tell him you are only saying this to him because you would rather have him mad at you and alive, then remain dead friends!

LiteHedded
September 29th, 2010, 02:30 PM
hopefully someone can meet him and maybe hop in the water with him somewhere. maybe a blue grotto type place. I'd do it but I'm out of commission for a while

SuPrBuGmAn
September 29th, 2010, 02:41 PM
Also mention to him if he kacks, or gets someone else kacked, in one of the caves; and that cave subsequently gets closed... he'll have alot of very ticked off cave divers after him.



Already on it. asl?

Lulz

Capt Jim Wyatt
September 29th, 2010, 05:45 PM
Order the DVD "A Deceptively Easy way to Die" off of the website found at: National Speleological Society Cave Diving Section (http://www.nsscds.org) and click on the "shop" tab. I saw a link to this DVD on YouTube on an post prior to this one, if this link works ask your friend to watch it.
A Deceptively easy way to Die (http://tinyurl.com/28oj89r)


Be vigilant with your friend and insist that he mends his ways before he becomes a statistic. Encourage him to take a cavern class.

vinegarbiscuit
September 29th, 2010, 05:58 PM
+ 1 for Hudson and Capt_Jim_Wyatt. I watched that tape when beginning my cave education in Florida, and it scared the pants off me. Another thing that might work for your friend: point him (and his companion) in the direction of the accidents/incidents board. Maybe he'll recognize himself in some of those situations, and back the hell off. I hope your mate manages to meet some of the cave divers that have already offered their services on this thread, too - jolly decent of them.

It's a hard situation, no question about it. Some folks simply don't know how dangerous their actions can be, and are very amenable to changing their ways once they've been presented with the facts (facts that in cave diving's case, were learned at the awful cost of people's lives). Others won't listen whatsoever, and still others will nod and pay lip-service to the need for cave-training and experience, before turning 'round and breaking the rules anyway. I truly hope your mate falls into the first category. All the very best. He's lucky to have a friend like you.

TSandM
September 29th, 2010, 06:17 PM
I think, if he's the kind of person I suspect he is, the best thing is to strongly encourage him into a cavern class. If he's a daredevil, he's isn't going to stop doing what he's doing just because somebody tells him to, or because somebody ELSE got into trouble. But doing a lost line drill might -- just might -- give him a wake-up call.

Dive-aholic
September 29th, 2010, 08:29 PM
All of my recreational students have to watch the videos in my signature line. Unfortunately, more instructors don't do that. I'll be at Vortex the next couple of days if your friend is available. If he's willing, I can take him on a dive that will change his attitude... :crafty:

ucfdiver
September 29th, 2010, 08:38 PM
All of my recreational students have to watch the videos in my signature line. Unfortunately, more instructors don't do that. I'll be at Vortex the next couple of days if your friend is available. If he's willing, I can take him on a dive that will change his attitude... :crafty:
I've heard that about diving with you! :D

Ith
September 30th, 2010, 08:42 AM
I'll be speaking with him tonight, so I'll let you guys know on Friday how it goes. I'll make sure he knows about the offers from you guys to teach him a little something. Maybe he'll actually take the opportunity.

Ith
October 1st, 2010, 09:30 AM
Well guys, it's mostly bad news. I spoke with him. Last weekend he went and dove the cavern at Morrison. I told him that cavern or any overhead was just as dangerous as caves, but he didn't believe me. He said he "wouldn't do anything that he knew he couldn't handle" and the he was going to continue to dive into canvern and overhead areas. He said he was only goes places where he can see the openings while inside. I tried to convince him that this isn't safe.

We talked about the recent Vortex incident and that didn't sway him. I mentioned Superbugman's offer to be at Vortex, and he thought it was going to be a free caving cert. I corrected him and said it was just an informal meeting to talk about the dangers and he completely lost interest.

Luckily, he did say he is planning on taking a cavern course, but didn't say when. I couldn't convince him of anything. I think he has talked with a few people and knows just enough to get himself into trouble. I'll continue to talk to him about it every time I see him, but that is only once a week.

BabyDuck
October 1st, 2010, 09:55 AM
well, tell him that now we know that he was told, if/when he dies or gets hurt in an overhead we will say *the same things or worse* about him as are in the recent vortex thread. he may think he's seeking glory, but when he gets there, we will call him an idiot for all time. if he wants that as his epitaph, go for it.

SuPrBuGmAn
October 1st, 2010, 11:01 AM
Go after the girl, focus on the girl, save the tatas at the very least.

Ith
October 1st, 2010, 11:56 AM
Go after the girl, focus on the girl, save the tatas at the very least.

Will do!:D


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