LDS Loyalty

[Aerosynth]

General question...

How loyal does a LDS expect its customers to be? Are LDS groups offended when a diver shows up to a dive, sporting a piece of gear not purchased from them? Or when they find out a diver is carrying around a new C-Card and didn't take the course from their shop?

And to the divers... do you use more than one LDS or source for your gear and training? And, does your primary/preferred LDS know... or do you just keep it to yourself? If they know, are they cool with it? Ever had confrontations/questions about it?

From the customer end, I can say this... there are LDS groups that I absolutely enjoy and love doing business with. I think they consider me a good customer. However, I can't always wait 3 months to take a certain class, or I can't get the brand/model of something I want at their shops, or the price difference is just too great and I have to buy something somewhere else.

The diving community in general seems extremely hung up on LDS loyalty... and I understand that... but for me, in this market, it just isn't reasonable (or possible) to use my preferred LDS for every single dive-related transaction.

I don't want to hurt feelings and stop getting invited out to dive. I suppose I'm looking for that right balance between loyalty to the businesses/groups that I like, pursuit of my individual diving goals, and satisfaction of my personal gear preferences.

Just wondering. I know that this topic goes beyond diving into the realm of small business in general. Just seems that divers are particularly loyal, and the topic might have special resonance in this community.

[scubafanatic]

over the years I've experienced a wide range of LDS 'attitudes', and over the years I've sometime had to lead a double life, being a different person/customer to different LDS's...and I'll share different amounts of my personal diving information/shopping habits with different shops, depending on the extent of the relationship I want to have with that shop...it's kinda complicated. And like so many relationships, they can come and go, sometime s the LDS goes out of business....sometimes there's a 'falling out' where our interests diverge, or perhaps a cooling of the relationship if one's purchases taper off over time (either because I've acquired the vast majority of dive gear I'll likely ever need and am no longer one of their 'big spenders', or because I've found a more competitive supplier for the big purchases I do still make)...or because I'm forced to hop around among different dive shops to participate in specific trips that work for me $ and vacation time wise, so I can't really stay loyal and do trips that best work for me.

[awap]

It is just a place where $$$ can be exchanged to goods and service.

[Capt.Ed]

I live in the keys and have 20 LDS to choose from in a 10 mile radius...ok, maybe just 15 shops. But I also have Divers Direct right down the road as well. I go there for some things and go to my LDS (Key Dives) for others. I just bought a $500 speargun for myself and dropped $850 on a used BC and new reg for my son through my LDS. I scoot down to Divers Direct when I'm looking for terminal tackle or a new compass and although they are smaller purchases, they add up over the year and I figure I spend close to the same amount at each.
My preferred local dive shop will order anything I want and will try to match or even beat the prices at Divers Direct or other shops in the area but doesn't get "offended" because I shop elsewhere. Hell, one of his employees is also employed by Divers Direct. The other interesting thing is that everyone in my LDS knows me by name...I only know a couple of people down the road at Divers Direct.
The way I look at it, I would hate to see either of them fold up and close so I spread my money around town. But I do prefer my local dive shop/op.

[munselln8]

I have to agree with AWAP. This "LDS Loyalty" discussion is getting out of hand. He is where the loyalty stands (IMHO). The LDS should expect immediate and full payment for goods or services. I should expect to receive those goods or services at that time (or another previously agreed upon time). Whichever LDS has the better combination of goods, services and prices has done the diving community a great service indeed and deserves the rewards that come along with that (my patronage).

[Aerosynth]

Well I'm not having any problems with my preferred LDS specifically, just for the record. It's more of just a general question/rant based on the attitudes of some divers that I have met.

Some people I've dove with seem to have this "all-or-nothing" loyalty to their LDS. If you want to dive with their group, you have to buy all your gear there. If you take one class there, it suddenly obligates you to buying all your gear there for the rest of your life and you can never go diving with another shop. Seriously... I mean, I am exaggerating to make a point... but not by much.

Just trying to figure out why some people treat interactions with their LDS like a monogamous relationship.

[spectrum]

A good shop can generate a bonding effect and make some customers into dedicated advocates, call that loyalty if you want. Most divers will say that the best regulator is the one that worked well for them on the last dive. This shop loyalty can be the same fickle deal. If the shop is doing well by somebody they will be loyal. Dependent divers in particular can associate closely with a supportive shop.

In your case it never hurts to patronize a shop but any shop worth dealing with will recognize that they can't have it all. Get what you need when and where you need it.

I am an advocate of seeing if the local shop can hit a price you can live with compared to online. The local shop does bring some special value to the table when you need to try something on or need a last minute repair.

I have a mix of goods from all local shops and online and have never felt any animosity regarding my choices.

Pete

[Scubagolf]

As the consumer, I set the parameters. I generally buy "big ticket" items online (my preference is ScubaToys) unless one of two local shops have what I want at a price that is within 10-15% (including tax.)

I sometimes take classes locally, go on trips sponsored by the local shops, and I buy the odds and ends of equipment locally. I dive a Zeagle Brigade BC so it obvious that I deal online with ScubaToys. I have never felt shunned and if that ever happens it will be the end of my patronage of that shop.

[fisheater]

Must be a regional thing.

I've never ran into or heard anything like this in Calif.

[TSandM]

Our shops can get very "territorial" about their customers, and they can and do get upset when you buy something from someone else. I got thrown off the e-list from one shop for telling one of their customers where he could buy a $7 item that THEY DIDN'T CARRY.

That sort of behavior irritates the stink out of me. My tack shop doesn't get mad at me for buying a saddle from someone else; they just work harder to get the next sale.

Luckily, the dive shop which is now my LDS has been VERY good about not hassling me when I bring in tanks I bought used to get them VIPed. They would lose me as a customer if they gave me a hard time, and I think they know that.

[Stu S.]

We all appreciate a harmonious customer-merchant relationship. In that relationship, the customer is in charge. You can fire them, but they can't fire you.

If they don't like how I spend my money, so what. They are not in a position to pass judgement on how I spend. Only my wife is.

[fnfalman]

A good LDS wouldn't give two cents as to where the customer went to get additional training or purchase new gear. That LDS would ask the customer how they can perform better so that they can win more of the customer's business.

[RU4SKUBA]

...do you use more than one LDS or source for your gear and training? And, does your primary/preferred LDS know... or do you just keep it to yourself? If they know, are they cool with it? Ever had confrontations/questions about it?

My advice is never discuss where you bought your gear with a LDS. Avoid the subject. If someone asks just say it was a gift, you cannot remember where you got it, shrug and ignore the question, or politely walk out. Your call, but don't invite criticism because someone will be judgmental about where you bought your gear and rant about the alleged negative effect it has on the industry.

Regarding instruction, its my advice to have as many individual instructors as possible from different sources. If you're a new diver how could you possibly know if your instructor is skilled, mediocre at teaching entry-level courses, or unsafe?

[bracko]

I've noticed a few things over the past couple of months that has concerned me a bit...

the guys are a bit snappy about some things, I'm not sure if it's me being over sensitive, but it's kinda annoying. we pay eachother out all the time and it's all in good jest, but I've noticed one or two things lately... I've sent someone there in the past who ended up buying gear from ebay and getting it serviced there, now i don't know how much help the store gave him initially, but, he did take the gear there to get serviced! & he joined their club! there are a few other things, but i've just put it down to the winter blues / bored...

[OneRestlessNative]

My LDS has been around for over 50 years going into 3 generations with the youngest now in the shop filling tanks and such. Dad was certified by them and all my classes were through them. They know me by name and every time I pull up to the register with a decent purchase around 80$ or more they drop 10%. Major items I bought were BC, computer, couple wetsuits, 2 tanks, and a fair amount of small items. Everything I've bought used they serviced no questions or attitude. When I walk in they greet me and I have even been asked how a previous purchase was performing. They ask if I need help when browsing and have never pushed something more expensive. They service all my gear at reasonable prices and in fair times. Reg's are done in a couple days max, visuals and hydros are done in house and also done in a day or two. NO amount of internet savings could replace what this shop does for me as a customer. There are 4 other shops within a 30 mile radius that I have never stepped foot in.

Here is a little testament to their general attitude: I have an old 83' luxfer al80 with the 6351 alloy. It was a hand me down from Dad and still remains in decent condition. I was told by several dive shops in S.Fl. that it was trash and get it out of their building ASAP! seeking a fill during a dive trip (Vis and hydro were current). Got back in town asked about the tank, they checked the numbers, confirmed it wasn't in the bad batch. They said they would continue to fill and service it as long as it continued to pass.

I try to give them as much of my business as I possibly can because I hope they will be there for another 50+ years.

[String]

It is just a place where $$$ can be exchanged to goods and service.

Correct!

[Mike Boswell]

My wife and I run our own business, and sometimes we screw up, and sometimes we feel a customer has been "disloyal". But we have learned that grown-up business people sometimes have to swallow their pride and overcome their emotions. We know that we need to earn our customers' loyalty, and keep earning it, with good products and services at a competitive price, and a friendly, positive, helpful attitude.

Running a business isn't easy, and we all make mistakes. The customers we love the best are the ones who will give us unshirted hell when we deserve it: Criticism is what keeps you on your toes. Good businesses are kept good by honest customers: If your LDS slips up, let them know about it.

[Garrobo]

The only fer shure memory that I have of buying anything from an LDS was a mask strap. The rest of my gear came from either an online supplier like Leisurepro or Ebay.

[Kingpatzer]

An LDS or diver who insists on loyalty is simply being foolish. However, an LDS who is doing their job well will generate loyal customers, and they will likely do more for their loyal customers than for those who just happen to have an attitude of "you take my money and give me what I want and that's it."

That "more" can be discounts, package deals, first shot at trip slots, free classes, and all kinds of other things. But whatever it is, loyal customers will get rewarded by good shops.

The problem happens when shops who aren't working hard to provide good value (value, not prices - the two are different a point missed by many people who think there's no point to being loyal) start demanding loyalty. That is the sign of a shop that doesn't deserve loyal customers.

[fnfalman]

My favorite LDS actually encouraged me to take training with other shops and agencies because the owner believes that breaking out of the mold is a good idea for learning.

He believes in putting divers into water instead of just generating cashflow. He'd tell me to buy gears elsewhere if those other places give me better discounts than he can. That's why he gets 80-90% of my spent moolah.

[Avonthediver]

The way I see it, it should be about the diver not the LDS. Dont get me wrong you should show your support but in the end its what price are we talking about.
I support three shop's and all three have what I need most of the time. And not every LDS has that one class your looking for.

And for what its worth LDS' need to come out of the dark ages and see that the net can make or break them...Like I said for what its worth.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Depends on the shop. I've had relationships with several in my area. As an independent instructor, some see me as "competition" while others see an opportunity for a cooperative relationship that benefits both of us.

Guess which ones get my business?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[N2DeepInAz]

Here's how I see it and let me preface with this statement, I am not a dive shop owner.

So, if I were a dive shop owner and you walked into my shop, I'd be more concerned with helping you find what you needed in my shop and at a fair price, not where you bought your previous gear from. You're in front of me at the current moment and all I can focus on is the current sale at hand and hope that we treat you well enough that you'll come back again and buy something again.

I have no control over where you bought your previous gear from or why, my only focus is that when you leave my shop you're a happy customer who felt they got a solid deal on some quality gear and that you would patronize my establishment again in the future as well as recommend us to your other dive buddies.

That's how I expect to be treated when I walk into a shop.

[Rhone Man]

I always think a good test of any store's customer service is to pick an item that you know they don't stock, and ask them if they know anywhere else you might look for it.

You can tell a lot about a place from the helpfulness of their reply.

[NWGratefulDiver]

I always think a good test of any store's customer service is to pick an item that you know they don't stock, and ask them if they know anywhere else you might look for it.

You can tell a lot about a place from the helpfulness of their reply.

I once worked at a shop that had all the other local dive shops phone numbers on speed dial. Whenever a customer wanted an item he didn't sell, he'd call around and help them find it.

He went out of business about six years ago ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Gombessa]

In that relationship, the customer is in charge. You can fire them, but they can't fire you.

"You are no longer welcome at this store. Please leave now." Interestingly, I could easily see this happening at a dive shop, but not in too many other retail industries, particularly for an "infraction" such as showing up with gear purchased somewhere else.

I feel pretty lucky, my LDS earns my loyalty. They provide truly expert advice and service, chat and shoot the bull even when I'm not making a purchase, and they don't nickel-and-dime on minor stuff (if I bring two half-filled tanks in, they don't charge for two full fills).

[NWGratefulDiver]

"You are no longer welcome at this store. Please leave now." Interestingly, I could easily see this happening at a dive shop, but not in too many other retail industries, particularly for an "infraction" such as showing up with gear purchased somewhere else.


Sad but true ... there are two dive shops in Puget Sound that I would not walk into because of this scenario. Not coincidentally, I suppose, I used to work at both of them ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[tkdgodess]

Whichever one is closest to my house. I hate traffic, what's my time and gas spent worth to drive across town to save a few bucks? Oh ya, I like delivery too. Epecially on the stuff my LDS does not carry or stock.

[Avonthediver]

One of the things I dont like about some shop's is that they mark their stuff up so high you dont want to buy from them and in turn walk out to find a better deal. I have been given dirt looks before and have seen this happen to others.

[scubafanatic]

"You are no longer welcome at this store. Please leave now." Interestingly, I could easily see this happening at a dive shop, but not in too many other retail industries, particularly for an "infraction" such as showing up with gear purchased somewhere else.

I feel pretty lucky, my LDS earns my loyalty. They provide truly expert advice and service, chat and shoot the bull even when I'm not making a purchase, and they don't nickel-and-dime on minor stuff (if I bring two half-filled tanks in, they don't charge for two full fills).

I've been 'banned' from one LDS over gear purchases, and banned from a certain dive group for differing viewpoints on dive styles, so yeah, customer's can be 'fired' so to speak.

[awap]

I've been 'banned' from one LDS over gear purchases, and banned from a certain dive group for differing viewpoints on dive styles, so yeah, customer's can be 'fired' so to speak.

I was banned by TommyD, the wetsuit guy, after I was a bit critical over the lack of any warranty with his products. I think it made him feel good.

[Avonthediver]

I've been 'banned' from one LDS over gear purchases, and banned from a certain dive group for differing viewpoints on dive styles, so yeah, customer's can be 'fired' so to speak.

LOL! I had a buddy who had been banned from the LDS that did our OW for buying a set a gear from a dive con! And the only reason he got back into the shop was that he called SSI and they made the owner put him back into class!

My buddy did make it up to the owner by buying a trip to cozumel :D

Note: the reason that SSI got involved is that paul had paid and the owner would not refund

[leabre]

I have no sympathy. On the one hand they act symphathetic regarding the draconian policies of maintaining impeccable paperwork to save money on parts when servicing name brand equipment and but turn around and revel in the fact that they can only sell the same price-protected gear at 100% markups and to ask for a discount is the same as asking them to close their doors all because the vendor will pull their dealership from them if they offer discounts.

Some shops around here have flat out told me they won't service my gear just because I either had incomplete paperwork or photocopied papers (I scan every original mail and receipt and shred after words to save storage space, it's a lifestyle I practice). Not even an issue of just charging more, they just wouldn't service it.

I learned an important fact about the local dive industry: I must make my purchases from a place that makes me happy. After exiting certain shops a number of times feeling guilty and upset, like I did something wrong, for not keeping exacting paperwork or for the simple reason I bought my gear from a different shop that is no longer in business, and being emotionally distressed over it I eventually decided any shop that causes me to feel that way for any reason will not get my patronage. PERIOD!!

A paying customer should not feel guilty or distressed after leaving a dive shop.

The dive industry is an interesting one. So I learn when to make political purchases, and when to lie about the origin of my equipment (I absolutely detest and abhor having to lie) in order to get air fills or other things like O2 analyzers or drysuits in the future.

In the end, shop where you please but be careful what you say around them. One can no more expect to be treated like royalty at Target after spouting off how Wallmart offers better prices than to expect most LDS' to treat you like royalty after spouting off how you spend your money online or at their competition.

[ecrcks]

I actually switched shops for this reason. Due to high pressure sales and feeling guilty for buying some used gear like I had done something wrong. Now I’m a grown man and it wasn’t until I was talking to another grown man about us both having guilt complex’s for buying gear from different sources that I realized that this is b/s. I should NEVER have to feel guilty about how I spend my hard earned money, with maybe the exception of allocating money for hookers (Just for the record, I do not do this) due to the wife.
P.S. I am new to scuba board. I just had to chime in for this!

[Stu S.]

There is a concept that some members of diving society subscribe to: diving has "ranks". OW student equates to buck private and instructor is like a captain. A dive shop owner is like a general in that way of thinking. This assumption of authority may cause those generals disapointment when regular-guy customers don't follow their command. The imaginary authority is born from a system of "working yor way up".

This should not change a consumer's perspective on buying for value. We must recognize that the "diver rank" concept is real to these people, and deal with the personalities involved.

[Avonthediver]

ecrcks welcome to the board!

And Stu s. thats a very good way of looking at things. what I like about the military is that their is always a way around the brass!

[SCUBASailor]

I buy from the my nearby LDS when prices are reasonable and he has what I need. When there is a substantial purchase (like AOW training) that I am getting from a more distant shop, I let the local owner know why I had to go elsewhere. He needs to know if and why customers might not be satisfied with some of his services, and he seems to appreciate my forthrightness. If a shop owner is not mature enough to listen to my needs, then he probably doesn't deserve my business anyway.

[munselln8]

I was thinking about this topic and, although I am a pretty hard core capitolist, I do recall a time I actually felt bad for not buying from the LDS. My wife wanted to get her own wetsuit (instead of renting-which we did from the LDS for $15 a pop for a year and a half). The LDS was having a big 40% off sale. So I take my wife down there and she spends close to 45 min-hour trying on diffferent suits (all the while the staff is being really great and offering suggsetions, helping her take measurements, running different suits back and forth to the dressing room, etc..). Eventually we find a suit that fits her great (I don't remember which one). The tag says ~$400.00...and I'm thinking..."I know that goes for around $189.00 online..." but with the sale it comes down to around $240.00. I tell my wife...hey, That is a pretty good deal...we should get it. But my wife insists on checking the price vs. online first. After about ten minutes I give up. She eventually bought a different suit online (Waterproof for $139.00 !!!) but I really felt guilty for that one. We spent a lot of their time that day and they treated us great. I'll cop to that one cause it was, IMO, sketchy. I felt we should have, at least made an offer ($220.00 maybe?)
Not that we haven't spent thousands in there on other stuff, but I guess that is just my sensibility :-/
BTW the new suit doesn't fit as well as the store suit, we sent it back once for an exchange adding $40 to the price so after shipping we spent ~ $200...not worth the hassle IMO, but my wife is MONDO cheap :)