lets look at the DM course

[on my way wanda]

I would like some input on what everyone thinks should be qualifactions of a diver to start the DM course. eg # of dives, experience, years of diving , someone thinks you might be a good DM or just for cash flow???:confused:

[Butch103]

.....since I began my DM training. I thought as long as I was a good diver NP.....WRONG.....

First I found I wasn't as good a diver as I thought. Second I have found I have to be very observant at all times with my "charges". Thirdly, it is not always fun.

I began my DM with just over 100 dives. I was and am comfortable in the water and I thought I was reasonable skilled in the water.

Well I was wrong. Although I am comfortable I discovered I had lots to learn about diving. I dumped almost 10lbs of the weight belt as I became a diver. I am now forever watching the other divers get ready for the dives. I can usually tell looking at a diver if they are overweighted. (Couldn't before).

I just feel a good instructor is invaluable to become a good DM.

I now have closer to 180 dives since I began my DM course in May, and each new dive is learning experience. I really feel I have become a diver now.

[D M I]

Greetings from below

Well! I have to put in my three cents here and this is my own observations. I've been diving for 26 year and over the last lets say 4 years I've met more unskilled Dive Masters on boats than I have ever met in all my years of diving. I can't believe the amount of Dive Masters "working" who do not know how to use basic dive tables or apply emergency procedures when needed. I strongly believe diving instructors who teach the Dive Master courses are not getting the message across to the students and or don't know much about Dive Mastering themselves. I also think On the other hand that I've met some excellent Dive Masters who are smarter, quicker and more skilled than some instructors. I think its time some one told Randy G of PADI canada to put away his palm pilot and marketing campaign and rethink padi's instructor to student Dive Master program. I also beleave that every Dive Master canadiate should complete some type of hands on advanced power boating skills and mechanical program, other than that basic pleasure craft card course.

Thank you

D M I
:boom:

[Butch103]

I have to agree with you.

My instructor required me to know how to operate a boat ( NP I have been running many different types of boats for years, in many different conditions).

He insists that I know how to fill tanks ( not a big deal, but lots of DMs don't know how).

I have can do the vis on tanks (not "licensed") so that I can really understand the process.

I can do some repairs on regs ( again for information only).

He insists that I learn how to do everything required to run dive shop, charter operation etc. I have to be prepared to do everything.

He insists that I teach as much as possible and assume responsibility for student divers.

All this in preparation to become a good DM.

He will not sign off on my DM until he sees I am comfortable with the students in the water, and I am knowledgable in the whole DM concept.

[on my way wanda]

Butch103 once bubbled...
I have to agree with you.

My instructor required me to know how to operate a boat ( NP I have been running many different types of boats for years, in many different conditions).

He insists that I know how to fill tanks ( not a big deal, but lots of DMs don't know how).

I have can do the vis on tanks (not "licensed") so that I can really understand the process.

I can do some repairs on regs ( again for information only).

He insists that I learn how to do everything required to run dive shop, charter operation etc. I have to be prepared to do everything.

He insists that I teach as much as possible and assume responsibility for student divers.

All this in preparation to become a good DM.

He will not sign off on my DM until he sees I am comfortable with the students in the water, and I am knowledgable in the whole DM concept.

It sounds like you have a wise instructor butch 103 would you say you are comfortable with students ???

[Kevin R]

Just out of curiousity Butch do you get paid as a DM? Most DM's that I know of do not, they are offered other incentives for their time.

Kevin

[DeepScuba]

Yeah Kev.........like 10% off equipment.....the likes no-one else gets,...right???


WRONG:

I overheard a joe-who getting the same pricing as a supposed DM pricing..........I really wonder........

Or one of the better ones I've heard.....PADI (NAUI) (YMCA) expects you to work for nothing as a DM for the shop.......

HAHA

Yeah.

The problem is, it's all so over-inflated pricing, they're making a mint either way.


AS for DM's............In the first OW class I helped out on as a DM, we put through a guy that, not 6 months later, I heard was going for his instructors...........

What a sham, what a shame.


It nice you're doing that stuff Butch, but when the $hit hits the fan, who's insurance is it going to fall on?

You know, a reg you touched fails (You're not officially a repair person yet) Or something goes wrong at the fill station (You're not a certified gas blender yet), Or a tank goes KaabooM after you visualled it (You're not trained for that either).

Odds are good it ain't ever gonna happen...........but who you gonna call if it does??

Can you say 4ATA of Poop?


TO Sum up:


A neccesary evil on the way to instructing.

[annie]

Butch

Sounds like a great instructor but pardon me if I point out something I'm not sure about

>>He insists that I teach as much as possible and assume responsibility for student divers. <<

as far as I know, DMs aren't supposed to teach or assume responsibility for student divers?

[Kevin R]

Our shop recently improved the DM's reward program changing it from a % off full pop to cost + 20%, membership and insurance costs are reimbursed through store credit, free visuals, discount on labour in svc dept, etc.

I once thought that the stores are making a fortune on markup, however, now that I work in one, I can tell you that they don't make much after paying for the cascade, compressor, rentals, service on rentals, compressor, cascade etc., instructor fees, insurance, plus the fact that as soon as one shop in the area starts to lose sales, they will firesale half their inventory to bring in customers. What you as a customer percieves to be one shop selling at a good price and another screwing you is actually one shop on the way out and trying to bring back its market share. This one of the reasons that the Ottawa area has a high dive shop turnover.

The reason I asked Butch if he was paid for his services is that I have never heard of a shop actually paying their DM's and I was curious as to where he is working. I was once an active DM, however, since moving into the reg shop I no longer have the time to do both.

As to who's going to cover you when something goes wrong, I would have been the last to believe it, but PADI will stand behind you so long as you followed their policies and procedures during the accident period. Their legal dept. is there as well as councelling if it is required. As for gear serviceing, I made sure I was listed on the shops insurance rider before I started fixing gear. I am a full time technician for Ford and am well aware that Mr. Murphy is always close by. The most important thing to remember here is cower your behind (write everything down) and always be able to prove due dillegence.

I agree on the quality of instruction out there. It is horrible. I also thought I was the next Jaques Cousteau once I was a knighted PADI professional. It wasn't until my ego was horribly deflated during my technical training that I realized where the system has failed and started comparing the instructors to their students, and began noticing that many do not have any better skills than those they are certifying. Number of dives completed before becoming an instructor means nothing. I can do my OW and adv, knock off 20 dives in Prescott, do rescue, perform 40 more dives in Prescott, do DM, followed by 40 more dives in prescott and become an instructor all within one Canadian dive year. What real experiences or skill do I have to pass on to the students? Chances are I cannot swim without raising silt, cannot hold a hover without forward motion, cannot deal with real life task loading. Cannot give advice on minor repairs, the list goes on....

Under PADI, which is the only recreational agency I have trained with, a DM is only allowed to help a student with a skill he has already been taught by an instructor. The DM cannot teach a new skill. A certified DM may take responsibility for students in the water during the tour portion of the OW certification. If I am mistaken here please feel free to correct me. I'm sure someone will.

Kevin

[D M I]

Well said Kevin, well said and very accurate to the point.

D M I:D

[annie]

I know that DMs are allowed to *lead* student divers during the tour portion of their OW. usually the instructor is there too and I always thought the instructor has responsibility for the students. Can someone confirm if DMs ever have responsibility for students?

In any case even if qualified DMs do, I doubt if DM trainees do.

>>assume responsibility for student divers<<

Do you mean under the supervision of the instructor? And who would have ultimate responsibility if something went wrong?

As Kevin said, it's something that should always be in your mind. Who's responsible for an accident and have you covered yourself?

[Butch103]

.....Although when I wrote the post I thought I had clearly implied that I was under supervision from my instructor. Just to clarify, YES at all times was he present . But he took a "backseat" and let me take the lead. He was ultimately in charge.
As far as repair and the vis work. I may have done the work, he than took over and did it again to make sure all was covered under legal and insurance. He is not going to jeapordize his and his families futures.

Insurance, I have been covered by the shops' insurance since day one.

I am not "slave" labour for the shop. The requirement to learn all the skills to run the shop was in the event that I do work as DM in a resort (for example).

All in all I think it doesn't hurt to at least learn the skills.

Do I get any perks??....I don't pay for my air. Do I expect anything as a student DM ..Absolutely not...

Do I expect anything as working DM?? Honestly I have now idea what or if to expect anything.

I feel I have gotten an excellent DM education from my instructor.
I have seen some of the 2-3 week DMs in action and if I look like them..I quit!!!!!

Am I comfortable with the students..for the most part yes.

Do I have more to learn....Only a fool would say no.

[on my way wanda]

Kevin Ripley once bubbled...
Our shop recently improved the DM's reward program changing it from a % off full pop to cost + 20%, membership and insurance costs are reimbursed through store credit, free visuals, discount on labour in svc dept, etc.

I once thought that the stores are making a fortune on markup, however, now that I work in one, I can tell you that they don't make much after paying for the cascade, compressor, rentals, service on rentals, compressor, cascade etc., instructor fees, insurance, plus the fact that as soon as one shop in the area starts to lose sales, they will firesale half their inventory to bring in customers. What you as a customer percieves to be one shop selling at a good price and another screwing you is actually one shop on the way out and trying to bring back its market share. This one of the reasons that the Ottawa area has a high dive shop turnover.

The reason I asked Butch if he was paid for his services is that I have never heard of a shop actually paying their DM's and I was curious as to where he is working. I was once an active DM, however, since moving into the reg shop I no longer have the time to do both.

As to who's going to cover you when something goes wrong, I would have been the last to believe it, but PADI will stand behind you so long as you followed their policies and procedures during the accident period. Their legal dept. is there as well as councelling if it is required. As for gear serviceing, I made sure I was listed on the shops insurance rider before I started fixing gear. I am a full time technician for Ford and am well aware that Mr. Murphy is always close by. The most important thing to remember here is cower your behind (write everything down) and always be able to prove due dillegence.

I agree on the quality of instruction out there. It is horrible. I also thought I was the next Jaques Cousteau once I was a knighted PADI professional. It wasn't until my ego was horribly deflated during my technical training that I realized where the system has failed and started comparing the instructors to their students, and began noticing that many do not have any better skills than those they are certifying. Number of dives completed before becoming an instructor means nothing. I can do my OW and adv, knock off 20 dives in Prescott, do rescue, perform 40 more dives in Prescott, do DM, followed by 40 more dives in prescott and become an instructor all within one Canadian dive year. What real experiences or skill do I have to pass on to the students? Chances are I cannot swim without raising silt, cannot hold a hover without forward motion, cannot deal with real life task loading. Cannot give advice on minor repairs, the list goes on....

Under PADI, which is the only recreational agency I have trained with, a DM is only allowed to help a student with a skill he has already been taught by an instructor. The DM cannot teach a new skill. A certified DM may take responsibility for students in the water during the tour portion of the OW certification. If I am mistaken here please feel free to correct me. I'm sure someone will.

Kevin
Kevin you stated that the # of dives completed to become instructor means nothing so would you say that that the # of years you have been diving qualifies you as a good instructor or DM??
Do you think DM or instructor is over rated and that having stricter guidelines would help in producing better DM or instructors???

[Kevin R]

I think that when actual dive skills were taught and standards were high enough to require effort to pass a course, the number of dives and years of diving meant something. Now I look at the skills (on an actual dive) and the attitude of an individual to decide where he/she stands. I know DM's and instructors who don't know why a DIN valve would be a better choice than a yoke and who are actually still nervous in the water on a basic dive, much less task loaded dealing with students. I helped on the pool portion of an OW course last winter and the instructors answer to the differences between my gear and the rentals was always "Oh he's a tech diver and they dive that way. Now everyone turn your heads. (The last part was sarcasm).

In the modern era of quick as you can courses, the example I gave of diving in Prescott is probable. I know of at least two instructors out there who did almost that to purchase thier OWI card. It was PADI's constant stream of literature asking me to both renew my DM membership and by the way, when are you going to become an instructor flyers that turned me off to their way of thinking.

Kevin