small RB?

[jplacson]

What's the smallest rebreather available?

I know RBs are usually used to extend gas time and all... but what if you're only purpose is to replace your single/double rig with a smaller setup?

I don't wanna get flamed like I did in other threads, so I'm gonna give a disclaimer: "I'm only ASKING" :)

[Atticus]

I heard someone built one out of a TP roll (literally). I think the version that actually was dived used a paper towel roll as they couldnt get enough soda lime into the tp roll.

Back in reality land it sounds like a simple unit like the Dolphin might be the answer to your question. There is a picture on these guys' web site: http://www.axel-horn-dive.de/old%20Browser/alte%20Browser_engl/Draeger%20Dolphin.htm

[BigJetDriver]

...AND WHY NOT ASK?...

Try Dave Sutton's website. He has a very professional, and very small unit. It is not for sale, however, just an example of something one might build!=-)

[Atticus]

Is this the website you're referring to? http://www.nobubblediving.com/

[jplacson]

yup! something like that. Cool RB though!

I was checking out the RB in Halcyon's site, and their ratio is something like 8:1 ...

So a small 10-12cf pony could, in theory, give as much air as a standard AL80, even more.

I was just thinking it would be great if they got to semi-perfect RB technology to a point where they could mass produce small 10-12cf rbs for the general public. Something depth restricted to 130', and normal scuba times.

This way, deep-sea exploration RBs would, in essence, be funded by the mass produced versions... much the way the automobile industry works... high-end cars are semi-test beds for new technologies that push the limits... the technology trickles down to the cheaper cars... which are sold to the masses... which in turn generate more funding for the high end cars... then the cycle repeats.

[Se7en]

jplacson once bubbled...
yup! something like that. Cool RB though!

I was checking out the RB in Halcyon's site, and their ratio is something like 8:1 ...

So a small 10-12cf pony could, in theory, give as much air as a standard AL80, even more.

KISS / mini kiss is dived with 2 by 8 cuft (1 litre) tanks for a couple of hours at any depth...

The benefits of closed loop rather than leaky pipe...

Se7en

[jplacson]

WOW! 2 x 8cf tanks? Thanks almost like diving with a couple of SpareAirs!!! :lol:

is that the same one in the link above? nobubblediving.com?

if not, can you post a link to more info? :) thanks!

[pipedope]

Rebreathers are cool but they have a whole new set of hazards and dangerous failure modes.
Good training is *very* important!

Take a look at;
http://www.atlimp.com/dive.htm
read the warnings and then take a look at;
http://www.atlimp.com/pend2.htm

This guy has tons of cool stuff on his site, plan on some time looking around and reading his stories.

[caveseeker7]

Hi John,
rebreathers can be made quite small, no dpoubt. And tanks are usually still major weight factors. The problem is not the gas to be rebreathed, but rather the bailout gas. Even from 130 ft. a spare air sized cylinder is probably not enough for most people, and certainly wouldn't be if you adhered to max. ascend speed or incurred any deco obligation.

But the thought of a small RB is tempting. Here on of my favorite pics that has been adrift on the net for a while:

[caveseeker7]

Here a pic I took of her and the 'mini' KISS last year.
For links to most of the current RB manufacturers have a look at the "Is it worth it?" thread.

[caveseeker7]

Here a picture of smaller versions of two current CCRs. On the left the Megalodon and the MiniMeg, on the right the Inspiration and upcoming evolution.
The smaller versions use what looks like 13 cu.ft. tanks, what I consider the minimum bailout gas for a recreational (100 ft./no deco/no overhead environ) dive. Both of those will take you into deco obligation easily if you don't pay attention. :rolleyes:

Oxygen rebreathers tend to be very small, but running on O2 can't be taken deep (more than once). The C96 is one that is available through
http://www.divesafe.net/
Dave Sutton's Minimum bailout RB is based on this little rig.
For a seemingly endless amount of RB pics go to
http://www.therebreathersite.nl/

[pipedope]

Gotta send ya back to Tom Rose again.
Take a look at this one;
http://www.atlimp.com/hcmain.htm
:D

I can think of worse ways to die than underwater with my own rebreather.

[Robert Cook]

So does anyone know when the mini-KISS will become available:confused: ,

Thanks,
Robert

[db8us]

Hi John,

do not forget that you still need some bailout if you are not only diving where you can bolt to the surface !
This adds up nicely to the "small rig", making the size of tanks not the biggest issue...

Michael

[dolphinJS]

I think the smallest RB is the Japanese Ouba. You can check out some photo's of it at: Click on the Ouba tab.

It has a duration of just 10 minutes

[jplacson]

OMG! That is the coolest RB!!!! Trust the Japs to shrink things down!!!

It's almost as small as the RB of Batman!!!! :lol:

db8us, it was just a thought since most OW dives aren't that long anyway.

If they perfected an OW RB unit that gave you the same bottom time as a regular no-deco, OW, single-tank rig... I think they'd be onto something that could revolutionize diving as we know it. This way, the mass-produced units would fund research for the more extreme RBs that require more training, bigger tanks...etc..

I think RBs are the way to go.. they are smaller, easier to swim with, and don't scare the fish.

I'm sure current RB users are saying "why bother with RB if you don't want extended bottom time?" ... that's not the point. Most RB users now are highly trained divers who get more training to stay down longer. If the technology was perfected already to allow simpler RB units with shorter bottom times, and a curriculum for OW training... more people will take the RB path... thus bring down over all RB industry prices... increasing awareness of RB procedures and advantages... increasing manufacturer funding and causing more manufacturers to make and support RB units... making more RB units available... lowering impact on marinelife... increasing number of RB divers... increasing RB research for advanced units... making extreme RB units more reliable and longer lasting! It's a win-win for everyone.

New divers will have smaller rigs... better diving experience... manufacturers can now move into the next phase of diving... more advanced RB divers will have more choices and better units due to the increased demand! :)

[SeaJay]

...That RB's don't have the massive shift in buoyancy over the course of the dive, either... Making the need for huge BC's a thing of the past.

Someone would have to manufacture the active chemical... "Sodasorb?" (I can't remember the name of it.) In a filter packet... Like those premeasured coffee filters. They'd have to retail for $10 or less each.

Then make the bottle of dilutent/O2 small enough to be comfy, large enough to work, and capable of doing both of those at low pressure (<1000 psi). If you did that, then you could simply own a couple of HP120 scuba tanks filled with the correct gas... And do three or four fills from your HP120, change the filter, and go...

...Of course, you'd need to make sure that the unit was free from electronics, save perhaps from a depth guage/computer... I've heard less than positive things about electronic life support in water...

[caveseeker7]

You never fail to make me wonder, Sea Jay. One moment you make me gringe because you're radically DIR, the next one you have a perfectly open mind and good ideas. :) Dr. Sea Jay & Mr. Hide ...

Anyway, as db8us pointed out, the most restricting part of RBs is bailout.
Just about any size unit has been build, from the momumental early Cis-Lunars to small Baby-KISS to those tiny japanese contraptions.
But if you want to spend any time underwater, you need enough gas to get back to the surface. From the 30-40m rec limit we're talking 13-20cu.ft. of gas to keep things safe. Deeper/deco, and you're at the status quo: Large tanks on the RB, large tanks for bailout or both. :(

As for the scrubber, have a look at the attachment, Microprene's ExtendAir cartridge. Currently available for Dolphin and Azimuth, should comesoon for the Inspiration. Price is still up there at $76 for four of them, but hopefully will come down as volume increases. Can't beat the convenience and ease. From what I hear they'll have new cartridges at DEMA. :rolleyes:

[SeaJay]

caveseeker7 once bubbled...
...you're radically DIR,


I am? ;)

I think I need to change my avitar... If I'd use a picture where I don't look so big, and not wearing a black T-shirt... Maybe I wouldn't look like such a "radical." :) I swear, I really am a nice guy more "on the road to DIR" than anything else.



...the next one you have a perfectly open mind and good ideas. :) Dr. Sea Jay & Mr. Hide ...


My mind is always open. I wouldn't have been open to DIR if it hadn't been. If you look back at some of my first posts, I was very much once quite "anti-DIR." I thought they were pretty much fruit loops. :D

...But when I dove with them, I saw all of these really great ideas...

By the way, have you seen Halcyon's rebreather? It's pretty impressive... About the size of an AL80, and quite capable... You know, that's the invention of some pretty open minds...

That cartridge-filter thing looks like "just the ticket." I like that... Assuming, of course, that it works and that they're not charging an arm and a leg for them...

Wouldn't it be cool to see the industry go that way?

[jplacson]

Yup, I saw the Halcyon RB... but that's my point...most RBs on the market now, are aimed at serious divers looking for 10 hour bottom times... and as wonderful as that sounds... you can sustain a business model catering to only ultra-high-end consumers. Diving as it is, is already a niche market... to cater to a niche of the niche... well, that limits your funding for research and development...not to mention raises prices of all prototypes...and limits production runs.

Most OW divers just want to have fun, dive with friends, something to do on the weekend kind of thing... if I owned a Rebreather, it would really be pointless and, quite frankly, stupid if I dove with regular air people... and not extend my bt.

I honestly think that a small RB, something that could just keep up with a single AL80, with a 130' depth capability... and a specially structured certification class (no need for prior scuba certs... something made for RB from the very start) would open up a whole new world for diving.

If that Jap Ouba RB could've given the same range as 32EAN, I think that would've been a major break through in diving! :)

I'd love to see the day when traditional scuba gets phased out and everyone is on a rebreather of some kind. I feel the fish would be very grateful!!! :D Imagine having those noisy muffler cars driving through your neighborhood at all times of the day? That's probably how the fish feel whenever divers are close by! :lol:

[caveseeker7]

SeaJay once bubbled...
I am? ;) ... I think I need to change my avitar

Read some of your posts and your write-ups on your DIR-F class and backplates with great intrest. Someone has got to be really into it to spend that much time and work on the subject.
i don't think you need to change your avatar, but if you do maybe see if NG sells 'Always Wonder' T-s. Not only would it be you, but that's why we dive in the first place, isn't it?

SeaJay once bubbled...

My mind is always open. I wouldn't have been open to DIR if it hadn't been.
...But when I dove with them, I saw all of these really great ideas...
Funny, I posted that once. That I was suprised at the lack of openmindedness of many DIR divers, considering that's how they got there.

SeaJay once bubbled...

By the way, have you seen Halcyon's rebreather?

Yes, and I think it is an excellent RB for its purpose (deep cave penetration), and a very good one for most every dive else. Halcyon's website explains it very well, I imagine you've got that link. ;) If you want to have a close look inside it to see how it all comes together, check out this link:
http://www.golemgear.com/scr/scrteardown.htm
The water drain is ingenious, Buchaly did an excellent job the rigs design. It certainly works. Would love to take one for a spin, probably have one, too. But they are very low volume, never ment for the mass market. And around $9K (without bp/w, harness, tanks, valves etc. or frame) in a transport box.
By the time you add all that, an O2 monitor (I would want one) and the required training, we're talking about 11grand or so. :(

SeaJay once bubbled...

That cartridge-filter thing looks like "just the ticket." I like that... Assuming, of course, that it works and that they're not charging an arm and a leg for them...

For Dolphin & Azimuth you have to buy a special cannister to house them, which goes for another $350. For the Inspiration they're supposed to work with the stock cannister. More after DEMA.
But I think the concept has a future, too.

SeaJay once bubbled...

Wouldn't it be cool to see the industry go that way?
The new Nemesis eCCR from OMG (Azimuth manufacturer) is supposed to have the cartridges as stock equipment, and be CEed. With Europe being a much larger RB-user market, getting CE-certification on the cartridges will help. If they can get it certified as optional equipment on Azis they can probably sell them well.

[caveseeker7]

jplacson once bubbled...
... but that's my point...most RBs on the market now, are aimed at serious divers looking for 10 hour bottom times...... to cater to a niche of the niche... well, that limits your funding for research and development...not to mention raises prices of all prototypes...and limits production runs.

I think you're exxagerating a bit, not many RBs have ten hour capacity. Even with 8.5lbs. scrubber the RB80 can only do it to a certain depth and within temperature limits. But as I stated above, it was specifically designed to do that, for the few who do deep cave exploration.
Most RBs, no matter if SCRs or CCRs are in the 3 hour range. And on CCRs when diving a ppO2 of 1.4 that's the O2 limit anyway. Nobody says you have to use it all up in one dive. Three 1hr. dives are perfect for SoCal dive boats, for exmample. Just means you don't have to refill on the boat.

jplacson once bubbled...

Most OW divers just want to have fun, dive with friends, something to do on the weekend kind of thing... if I owned a Rebreather, it would really be pointless and, quite frankly, stupid if I dove with regular air people... and not extend my bt.

It depends why you want to use an RB in the first place. If you enjoy warm moist air and like to sneak closer to wild life, then an RB is a good ticket. Just not an $11K Halcyon or a used MK16 or Cis-Lunar. There are much less expensive SCRs like Dräger's Ray & Dolphin. They use Nitrox, 32 and 50 the former, 32,40,50 amd 60 the latter. Designed and marketed for recreational limits, profiles about the same as OC Nitrox. The Dolphin sells okay, I guess, mostly in Europe. The Ray seems a flop, at least I've never seen one in the water. So the Simple & Limited approach isn't quite as successfull as you may think. Most people spend all the extra money and training time on RBs to extend bottom times, reach further down and in, extend no-deco times and shorten those, too. They are a great tool for extended range, end those divers spend an unproportionate amount of dive dollars.

jplacson once bubbled...

I honestly think that a small RB, something that could just keep up with a single AL80, with a 130' depth capability... and a specially structured certification class (no need for prior scuba certs... something made for RB from the very start) would open up a whole new world for diving.

They tried that in Germany, certifying OW divers on Drägers. Sponsored by a hugely successfull recreational nitrox and SCR agency, NRC, Dräger/Aqualung and a local dive mag. Supposedly worked well, the students loved it.

jplacson once bubbled...

I'd love to see the day when traditional scuba gets phased out and everyone is on a rebreather of some kind. I feel the fish would be very grateful!!! :D Imagine having those noisy muffler cars driving through your neighborhood at all times of the day? That's probably how the fish feel whenever divers are close by! :lol:
Be nice, so we wouldn't have to defend ourself so much. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

[SeaJay]

caveseeker7 once bubbled...

Read some of your posts and your write-ups on your DIR-F class and backplates with great intrest. Someone has got to be really into it to spend that much time and work on the subject.


Ah, yes... You've got that right. :D



i don't think you need to change your avatar, but if you do maybe see if NG sells 'Always Wonder' T-s. Not only would it be you, but that's why we dive in the first place, isn't it?


Absolutely! What a great idea... :)



Funny, I posted that once. That I was suprised at the lack of openmindedness of many DIR divers, considering that's how they got there.


Are you speaking of the DIR divers you've met in person, or the online sort? I've found the ones I've met in person to be pretty open-minded... Which was surprising.

But yeah, I'm with you on that one. Actually, I tend to see closed-mindedness in pretty much everyone, regarding any topic that they're passionate about. I suspect that any closed-mindedness from the DIR community comes from the concept that they know what works, and they're afraid to mess something up which is otherwise "balanced" or "holistic."

Frankly, I can see both points of view.

I think open-mindedness is crucial, followed by education, research, trial and error, mentoring, and finally... Making a decision on what works... Then sticking to it. I believe that any "closed-mindedness" from that point comes from their fear that you might upset that procedure.

...But hey, that's just an initial impression of many divers, DIR or not... And since I don't have a Doctorate in Psychology hanging on my wall, my assessment could be completely off-base.



...we're talking about 11grand or so. :(


Yep. Ouch. That's why I don't have one.

I like your idea that a smaller, simpler (some might say "dumbed down") version would do amazing things to the RB industry... Thus providing a badly needed inflow of money and research into them... Which would benefit everyone.

[caveseeker7]

SeaJay once bubbled...

Are you speaking of the DIR divers you've met in person, or the online sort? I've found the ones I've met in person to be pretty open-minded... Which was surprising.

Both. If I had a buck for everytime some guy with a shiny shingle and jet fins got in my face for not using the same I'd be diving an RB80 (with Force Fins :D )

SeaJay once bubbled...
Actually, I tend to see closed-mindedness in pretty much everyone, regarding any topic that they're passionate about.

Bulls Eye on that statement.

SeaJay once bubbled...

I think open-mindedness is crucial, followed by education, research, trial and error, mentoring, and finally... Making a decision on what works...

Problem is what works for me might not work for you. So I don't like to make decisions for what works for you, nor do I want someone else to make them for me. That's where I usually clash with the DIR way of life.
Ever read Lee's 'Tao of Jeet Kune Do'? Or his widow's easier to understand biography? With your philosophy you'll love either one. Learn everything you can, throw away what doesn't work for you. Wise man.

SeaJay once bubbled...

I like your idea that a smaller, simpler (some might say "dumbed down") version would do amazing things to the RB industry... Thus providing a badly needed inflow of money and research into them... Which would benefit everyone.
What I would like to see is a smaller scrubber option for the RB80, say to the length of 30cu.ft. cylinders, as a recreational configuration. Be a bit smaller and lighter, and still have decent bailout for rec dive profiles. And of course a price drop. Not because I think the rig isn't worth it, but so I can get one. :D
The design of a passive addtion SCR (RB80) is so much better than an active addition SCR (Dräger&Azi), and considerably safer due to the stabler breathing mix. The only way to make those any better is to turn them into KISSes. CMF O2 addition just below your metabolism, add O2 as needed.
To bad the K2/K3 never got off the ground. :(

[anthony12]

As a DIR-F grad and current inspiration diver I have to agree with both of you. Being a former closed minded jerk, all I can say is they dont know what there missing. As my photography got more and more serious and my dives got deeper and deeper a RB was the only way to go.

It would be awesome to see an affordable rec version of a ccr, but thats not likely to happen anytime soon. Which is truly a bummer. There are guys out there that start on a RB from open water on through. I recently met a guy that started on the inspiration and thats all hes ever dove(has never dove open circuit). I have to say he was a great RB diver and I learned alot from him. He said his instructors name was Don(cant remember his last name). So that option must be available through IANTD. But unless you have family and friends diving them how would you even get turned on to it? There is definately no promotion in that. The general consensus seems to be that you have to dive open first.

As for DIR I think everyone should take the F course. It is quite an amazing experience and the skills learned are valuable to either OC or CCR divers. I dont think you can take it on a CCR though:D

Like you guys said take what you need and discard the rest.

[caveseeker7]

anthony12 once bubbled...
As a DIR-F grad and current inspiration diver
The correct term is "Fallen Angel" ;)


anthony12 once bubbled...

It would be awesome to see an affordable rec version of a ccr, but thats not likely to happen anytime soon.

How much is affordable? The KISS comes in at less than $5K, and the design idea is a very good one. I'll check them out asap, I'm curious if the craftsmanship is as good. Probably as close to a DIR mindset as an CCR can get.

anthony12 once bubbled...

He said his instructors name was Don(cant remember his last name). So that option must be available through IANTD.
Might be Don Townsend from Millenium Divers in FL. He does a lot of RB training on different units, and is IT for most of them. Didn't know CCR/OW was possible, but leave it to IANTD to be politically incorrect. There is a reason I like'em. :)

anthony12 once bubbled...

As for DIR I think everyone should take the F course. It is quite an amazing experience and the skills learned are valuable to either OC or CCR divers. I dont think you can take it on a CCR though:D
It's on my to-do list, though not as high as it probably shoud be. :rolleyes:

[caveseeker7]

They don't have those, SeaJay.
All they have is a 'Let's do lunch' at http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/shopping/product/anotherview.jsp?itemno=79749
I'm not hungry ... :rolleyes:

[SeaJay]

caveseeker7 once bubbled...

Both. If I had a buck for everytime some guy with a shiny shingle and jet fins got in my face for not using the same I'd be diving an RB80 (with Force Fins :D )


You're kidding... Really? I haven't found any DIR guys "in" anyone's face... Not in person, anyway, and the online versions of them are often questionable... For instance, they spout all sorts of incorrect assumptions about DIR that you just KNOW they didn't get in any GUE class.

At any rate, if anyone's been "in your face," then allow me to apologize for them. I can't be held responsible for their actions, and I know this... Like I said recently to someone regarding DIR, "I am not GUE, nor do I play one on T.V." Furthermore, I believe it was Uncle Pug who coined the phrase, "You might not be the best example of DIR." That goes for any individual in the DIR group, no matter who you are... Myself included.

Nonetheless, I know that when I'm on a boat with non-DIR divers (sidenote: I know some DIR divers who will not dive with other divers who are not DIR... I don't "draw the line" there, but at "unsafe divers." I might dive with people who are not DIR, but I don't dive with people who have unsafe attitudes... Which transcend DIR and PADI, NAUI, YMCA, and all the rest) I stand as an example of DIR to them. They've heard the rumors... All sorts of wacky stuff; most of it borne of truth but bastardized along the way into something rediculous. All I can do is do my best to represent the organization and try to do what I can to impress with a positive image. It's not easy, but it's for their own good... What sort of disservice would I be doing them if I turned them off to DIR altogether just because of my personal misgivings?

At any rate... Please allow me to apologize for those that poorly represented the group of divers that I respect and emulate. Please don't shoot the message because the messenger was a jerk. :)



Problem is what works for me might not work for you. So I don't like to make decisions for what works for you, nor do I want someone else to make them for me. That's where I usually clash with the DIR way of life.


That makes sense, and I feel exactly the same way.

...Which is why it was such an epiphany for me to find that when I was presented with the skill set taught in DIR-F, and tried some of their recommendations, I found that exactly what they'd been preaching all along was exactly what worked best for me.

...And here's the scary part: What worked best for me was radically different than what I'd been doing.

Here's the "even scarier" part: What I'd been doing was exactly what I'd been taught. Think about that for a moment and allow the implication of the shortcomings in today's mainstream scuba courses to float to the surface.

But since we're all individuals, you'll have to find out for yourself what works best for you. Just be sure to try the DIR way, along with other ways as well (you're obviously very educated about diving, so I'm assuming that you're fairly well-learned in non-GUE courses)... And be honest with yourself in what "the best way" really is. If history repeats itself, you'll find yourself looking more and more "DIR" every time you dive - just like the rest of us did. :)



Ever read Lee's 'Tao of Jeet Kune Do'? Or his widow's easier to understand biography? With your philosophy you'll love either one. Learn everything you can, throw away what doesn't work for you. Wise man.


Nope, I'll have to check that out. Sounds intriguing.



The correct term is "Fallen Angel"


Lol!!!



(DIR-F is) on my to-do list, though not as high as it probably shoud be.


It's not a cheap class, in terms of time or money... And it certainly will challenge the very core of your own diving philosophy. Best of all, you'll have the undivided attention of GUE instructors who are prepared to handle your every question. I highly recommend it.

[caveseeker7]

SeaJay once bubbled...
I believe it was Uncle Pug who coined the phrase, "You might not be the best example of DIR."

Now that's a T I'd love to have: The CamelHead with the Uncle pug byline"Gotta stay wet to stay purdy" underneath and a large "You might not be the best example of DIR." wrapped around the side & top of the camel's head. :D

SeaJay once bubbled...

Please allow me to apologize for those that poorly represented the group of divers that I respect and emulate. Please don't shoot the message because the messenger was a jerk. :)

No I don't. You didn't do anything to apologize for on those trips. I do appreciate the thought, though. :) And don't worry, I usually don't shoot messengers. I throw them off the pier. ;)

SeaJay once bubbled...

Here's the "even scarier" part: What I'd been doing was exactly what I'd been taught. Think about that for a moment and allow the implication of the shortcomings in today's mainstream scuba courses to float to the surface.

But since we're all individuals, you'll have to find out for yourself what works best for you.

No doubt, a lot of scuba training leaves much to be desired. Especially when you start out. My problem was never in the technical aspects (many of which are not exclusive to DIR/GUE) but with the philosophy that comes with it(and caters to intolerance).

SeaJay once bubbled...

It's not a cheap class, in terms of time or money... And it certainly will challenge the very core of your own diving philosophy. Best of all, you'll have the undivided attention of GUE instructors who are prepared to handle your every question. I highly recommend it.
We're talking diving here, not women. It better not be cheap, since it cost plenty. I found a GUE instuctor I get along with, who is more intrested in teaching something he believes is worth teaching, rather than converting me into a new deciple. I'm sure what he teaches is worth learning, but he understandsthat I'm a free-thinking spirit and that I won't stay away from CCRs, occasional solo dives etc. .

[caveseeker7]

travel, without tanks of course, as carry on in the overhead bin. :D
Small enough for y'all?:D