Where does "technical" begin? (or Why get AOW certified?)

[phree337]

I'm still new to diving (cert OW in July '03), so I'm gonna ask this question. Hopefully it doesn't come out sounding like a troll....

At what point does a dive become a "technical" dive from a "recreational" one? Is it when a decompression obligation occurs, or perhaps a specific depth? Something else?

I ask this because I am considering which direction to steer my diving education. Oh sure, I'd love to get cave certified--but that may not be for me; I'm still thinking about how I would handle an emergency underwater in a cave. I would definately like to experience deeper depths with longer times than my current experience would dictate (~20 dives total to date, ~80fsw max depth). So what's the next step? Since I already have the EANx taken care of, I wonder what the value of AOW would be. Since the max recreational diving depth is ~100 feet, why not just go ahead and learn ALL the aspects involved in a dive of that depth, instead of just getting a card that says I can be at 100 feet for 5 minutes?

OK, the real question should be why get AOW certified? Is there something important in the class that needs to be understood before making the step into the "technical" world? Or would it be better to just spend the money on diving and gaining proficiency and experinece, work on getting into/maintaining physical and mental fitness, and then take a staged decompression course?

Does any of this make sense? :lol: I'm open to your input.... Please don't think I'm rushing things--I'm not looking to jump into anything soon. I know there is no substitue for experience. I just don't want to waste time or money getting something I really don't need or will be covered better in a later course.

Thanks!!

[MechDiver]

You've got a few hundred dives to go before you should be thinking about technical diving. IMO the AOW is good in that it usually is the route to rescue diver, which everyone should do.

There is also no "rule" as to what constitutes a technical dive vs a recreational one. Depth, gas, duration, conditions all play a part in how complex or demanding a dive is.

Very generally, beyond 130', overhead (actual or virtual), extended duration, or mixed gas (not nitrox) is considered technical.

MD

[mwilding]

If you ever decide to come to New Jersey and do some wreck diving, be prepared to be sent home. The AOW cert is a prereq for a lot of the boats.

[Rick Murchison]

Probably the most widely accepted definition for "technical" diving is when you're diving with an overhead that makes it impossible for you to survive should you decide to just "blow and go." That is, you're diving too far back in the cave/wreck (distance, complexity, depth or visibility) or with too much deco obligation to make it alive - and therefore must have the discipline, planning, training and the equipment to prevent any situation requiring said "blow and go."
Advanced Nitrox and Cavern are transitional courses that nibble at the edges of technical diving.
Cave and Trimix are clearly technical courses.
As Scuba training exists today, AOW is the minimum trainiing level you should complete to dive unsupervised in all but the most benign environments.
Rick

[bwerb]

DeepTechScuba once bubbled...
Until you have finished these 3 classes, you are not really a scuba diver.

The "technical" road:

Advanced nitrox
Stage decompression
Advanced deep air
Basic/cavern
Basic trimix to 200 ft
Advanced trimix to 300 ft
Advanced/cave

There is also the re-breather tangent:

Basic semi-closed circuit re-breather
Advanced closed circuit re-breather

Re-breathers are mainly for photography and filming.

A fair amount of tech divers are also certified to the instructor level in pre-tech in hopes that this gives them good basic watermanship skills like buoyancy control, and so that they can perform as reliable buddies for other technically trained divers, spotting problems, and dealing with them effectively.

So, the road is long.

The very top of the pyramid is at the tech/cave instructor level. You need a boat, so you can take tech students out to wreck sites. Or you would need to charter someone else's boat, if you do not have a boat of your own. So even if you are a technically certified diver, there is always someone more highly certified than you are.

The most credibility in the dive industry belongs to the tech instructors. These people are quiet, confident individuals that do not rant and rave on dive boards, like the rest of us do!


Man oh Man did I learn some stuff from this post...

1.) I'm not actually a scuba diver! I don't have my Nitrox ticket so I guess that my Rescue and DIRF certs. are just totally bogus and I should just get out of the water.

2.) The technical road I've chosen isn't here at all...purchase doubles, dive them...RecTriox, Tech 1, Cave 1...etc.

3.) RB's are primarily for photography

4.) The DM/Instructor courses are the correct place to learn buddy skills.

5.)Unless I own a boat I'll never be able to teach tech...(didn't see that one in the prerequisites...must have the following equipment...one dive boat; 22 feet or longer...)

6.)George Irvine doesn't really exist (yeah, he's not an instructor but you know what I mean).

;)

[bwerb]

DeepTechScuba once bubbled...
I thought that George Irvine never goes anywhere without his expert tech instructor, Jarrod Jablonski, with him?

Isn't that true? I mean, seriously, JJ can dress up George, but every time he takes George out, he gets embarrased??!

We need "action figures" G.I.JJ! :D

[ScubaRon]

The (PADI) AOW course helps you:
- practise your diving skills further
- explore some of the diving specialties

The course is quite different from the OW course: much less theory and much more practical experience. Many dive outfitters will require AOW before they will take you on more advanced (read: interesting) dives. So I strongly recommend you take it.

If you are not interested in cave diving (which I can fully understand...), you are probably not interested in wreck penetration either. Then you need to wonder why you want to go technical. Just going deep loses its attraction very quickly: 200' doesn't feel any different than 50' and often you see less. Going the technical route just to find this out is a lot of work and a lot of money (technical diving pretty much means you high quality gear and pretty much 2 of everything, so figure).
:snorkel:ScubaRon

[MechDiver]

bwerb once bubbled...



Man oh Man did I learn some stuff from this post...

2.) The technical road I've chosen isn't here at all...purchase doubles, dive them...RecTriox, Tech 1, Cave 1...etc.


See! I TOLD ya not to do those sissy classes :rolleyes:

I'll dive with you if you have a boat...

MD

[5615mike]

bwerb once bubbled...


Man oh Man did I learn some stuff from this post...

1.) I'm not actually a scuba diver! I don't have my Nitrox ticket so I guess that my Rescue and DIRF certs. are just totally bogus and I should just get out of the water...............


You mean that with all your experience you didn't know you were not really a diver?...................Shame on you:upset:

Do better next time:D

[MechDiver]

ScubaRon once bubbled...

200' doesn't feel any different than 50'

Ahh, I might contend that a little, but I understand your point :)

MD

[bwerb]

The three courses which you really should take are:

OW, AOW, Rescue...they are more or less three parts of the basic dive education (or equivalents from other agencies).

OW introduces you to the sport.
AOW exposes you to some new techniques and dive skills under direct supervision...they are experience dives which broaden your in-water experience.
Rescue helps you to start to look at the other divers in your team and yourself in a more objective light, to prepare for what to do when things go wrong and how to prevent them from going wrong in the first place.

If you are interested in the "tech" road...heck, even if you just want to have the bar for your own dive skills raised...take a DIRF.

[ScubaRon]

DeepTechScuba once bubbled...

Basic open water
Basic nitrox
Advanced open water

Until you have finished these 3 classes, you are not really a scuba diver.
Nonsense, you're a good scuba diver when you are OW certified and know how to utilize the skills learned in the OW class. That usually takes 10 or 20 dives, but some people never learn it...
AOW is a class I highly recommend to anyone and can help you get there. There are plenty of great divers who never took AOW.

Nitrox has nothing to do with being a good or bad scuba diver. It is good if you want to do certain types of diving that require extended bottom times. If you are interested in that, take the course, if you're not, don't.
:snorkel:ScubaRon

[bwerb]

MechDiver once bubbled...


See! I TOLD ya not to do those sissy classes :rolleyes:

I'll dive with you if you have a boat...

MD

How about if the "boat" is actually submerged? I'll take you to my "boat" if you want...:D End of October...you have the dates...see you in the water!

[Boogie711]

Deep Tech Scuba might be related to a former poster on this board?

Dude - you haven't been solo-diving under the ice lately, have you?

[reefraff]

phree337 once bubbled...
I'm still new to diving (cert OW in July '03), so I'm gonna ask this question. Hopefully it doesn't come out sounding like a troll....

At what point does a dive become a "technical" dive from a "recreational" one? Is it when a decompression obligation occurs, or perhaps a specific depth? Something else?

The line between recreational and technical diving isn't as great as it used to be - but techical diving can be summarized as non-commercial diving outside recreational limits: dives in overhead environments (and that includes virtual overheads, where decompression issues keep you from a direct ascent to the surface), and; dives using specialty gases (such as >EAN40 and/or any gas with helium in it.) Some would categorize and dive that requires gear such as doubles, drysuits, lift bags, etc. as a technical dive. Others would qualify black water, fast water and cold water dives as technical While there are some specialized skills that are needed for all of these, I think calling any dive in a drysuit a technical dive or any dive in black water a technical dive is overly parochial. A dive in cold, black water that requires a dry suit...well, that might be close enough. In the old days, any EAN dive would have been a technical dive, but things change.

I ask this because I am considering which direction to steer my diving education. Oh sure, I'd love to get cave certified--but that may not be for me; I'm still thinking about how I would handle an emergency underwater in a cave. I would definately like to experience deeper depths with longer times than my current experience would dictate (~20 dives total to date, ~80fsw max depth). So what's the next step? Since I already have the EANx taken care of, I wonder what the value of AOW would be. Since the max recreational diving depth is ~100 feet, why not just go ahead and learn ALL the aspects involved in a dive of that depth, instead of just getting a card that says I can be at 100 feet for 5 minutes?

Why would you love to get cave certified? This is actually an important question that you should ponder carefully - inspect your motives critically. Planning ahead is always a good thing, but especially this early in your diving it probably makes a lot of sense to remain as flexible as possible - who knows what you're going to like? I agree with some of the others; I don't think most folks become competent divers until they have at least completed OW, AOW & Rescue and have 100 dives or so in their log. As with any generalization, there are problems with this. For instance, someone who has successfully completed DIRF will probably be a better diver than someone who has completed AOW, but will have missed the glimpse into the world of photography, night diving, etc. One of the biggest mistakes new divers make is to go card crazy - slow down, learn to enjoy your dives and master the skills you have been taught before you move on to the next step.

OK, the real question should be why get AOW certified? Is there something important in the class that needs to be understood before making the step into the "technical" world? Or would it be better to just spend the money on diving and gaining proficiency and experinece, work on getting into/maintaining physical and mental fitness, and then take a staged decompression course?

The purpose of AOW is to introduce you to a number of different dive situations and to get you to spend some time with an instructor to cover basic skills that may have gone wobbly since OW. It is definitely NOT the last step before technical diving - you have to have ALL of the fundamental skills mastered BEFORE you proceed to technical diving. It really doesn't much matter what you do in the water with the instructor, just that you spend some quality time being evaluated and critiqued and taught. I think it's invaluable, but there are other options that are just as good, if not better. You need to spend the money on diving and gaining proficiency AND taking the AOW class. No way you should even be considering decompression diving at this point. No way.

Does any of this make sense? :lol: I'm open to your input.... Please don't think I'm rushing things--I'm not looking to jump into anything soon. I know there is no substitue for experience. I just don't want to waste time or money getting something I really don't need or will be covered better in a later course.

There's no substitute for experience. Likewise, there is no substitute for instruction - it's the best way to gain a lot of experience in a short time. One of the "big rules" of technical diving that applies to gear and to training is to make no compromises - if you can't afford to do it right, don't do it. I'll repeat: slow down and smell the roses. Diving is the lazy man's extreme sport, so take it easy and please remember to worry more about missing a step than repeating one.

One other thing: twenty dives a year and you will never gain the proficiency with basic skills that will allow you to move into technical diving - practice, practice, practice.

Thanks!!

You're welcome.

Steven

[100days-a-year]

Good question,I asked myself the same questions as well as why all those specialties that some agencies offer.
1.Rec diving blends into Tec at the point you plan to enter intoan environment that basic scuba skills are insufficient to cope with.Deep,multi-gas/mixed gasses,acclerated deco,cave,cold/ice,lo-vis and rebreaters covers most of it.
2.A lot of the money I would have spent on all those courses went for actual tech training.This allowed me also to purchase the requisite gear.
3.There is no substitute for experience,most agencies require 100's of logged dives prior to beginning tech training.Being comfortable and versed in skills at depth is crucial.Being comfortable with your gear is so important that some agencies require some of those dives to be in the appropriate gear for that type of diving,sort of an incremental approach.
4.Motivation is important as well.Why do all this hard work,spend lotsa cash and increase your chances of returning to room temperature unless there is some pay-off.Just to be cool or impress your friends?Buy a Porshe ,it'll cost less.To see unseen things and challenge yourself,cool.
5.The field is dynamic and change is inevitable,15 years ago most eveyone dove deep air,today only idiots and spearfishermen routinely surpass 130' on air and less for some.The spearfishermen can name valid points for it,somewhat.Rebreathers now have mixed gas and are more dependable and safer.
There's more but I'll see what else gets mentioned.

[DeepScuba]

I agree with Steven (Reefraff). There's no substitute for in-water time. The only way to become a good diver is to dive. AOW and other courses are there to speed up learing curve, vs going it alone and finding something out the hard way. Instruction, proper instruction is the most efficient way to go.

It's always what you don't know that will hurt you. The more I learn, the more I know what I don't know, type of thing.

As for the 100 dives to become proficient at it..well I guess it's a close enough ball-park. But I will tell you I have seen many people become darn good divers with only 50-75 dives! I wasn't (I consider) one of them, but as I've always said, my wife is a great diver. Her buoyancy and in-water control is just amazing for the time she's spent diving (75 dives +-) She's not wigged-out by much at all, she's a natural. She may only do 20-30 dives this year, but somehow she manages to keep her diving in pretty top-notched condition.

Relax and enjoy it, live the moment, it's good for your SAC rate too!

We were in Kingston recently, and when we got home I remarked to my wife how it was really relaxing not to be task-loaded up the butt with Deco-diving, which includes the strictest adherance to time, depth, gas management, gas switches, planning, more planning blah blah blah.

It was fun to just Rec dive!! (Not that I wasn't watching guages, of course!)

I was the first time in a while I could totally relax and basically not worry, but to just enjoy it.

[phree337]

Thanks everyone for responding (and especially for the GI/JJ part, that was too funny!!). Just to re-iterate to you all, I am NOT looking to strap a pair of doubles on, dive to 200 ft and penetrate some wreck for my 21st dive; I'm just trying to figure out how best to spend my limited amount of discretionary funding on the new addiction...um, I mean sport!! :) I know enough technical divers that I feel that I can learn quite a bit from being in the water with them and discussing various aspects of diving with them on land. My biggest concern was if the AOW was REQUIRED before taking some of the more technical courses, or if each diver was rated on his/her individual proficiency before being admitted into the class (which, by the way, no one has quite seemed to answer yet...). It seems that everyone wants my money in this game, and I am just trying to gain some insight as to who actually gets it.

I will continue to research the different aspects of diving, increase my physical fitness, and--most importanty--ENJOY the diving I get to do now. I feel kinda privileged to be underwater looking at something that not everyone gets to see.

[roturner]

bwerb once bubbled...


We need "action figures" G.I.JJ! :D

If they were anatomically correct you'd probably be able to put batteries in at least one of them and sell them at more than just toy stores.....

:)

R..

[Scuba_Vixen]

phree, most tech courses expect you to have completed Rescue Diver (or it's equivalent)...Rescue requires AOW....Rescue is probably considered the most important class you'll ever take....

Do AOW and Rescue, then ponder the future..... The money will have been well spent.


Darlene

[100days-a-year]

I beleive some agencies allow the instructor quite a bit of leeway in pre-requisites.I never completed a rescue or AOW course prior to beginning tech training.Incrementalism is a marketing ploy that some agencies use as a cash generator.I have a few "master diver" friends who have fewer life time dives in fewer types of diving than my wife does in a year with a simple PADI OW cert.Once again it's time to check motives.If you want a bunch of pretty cards to wave at people, get all the specialties and junk certs you can.I'm all about the diving,not the labels.The best way to spend money on this hobby is diving,next is gear and last is more training.

[SeaJay]

roturner once bubbled...


If they were anatomically correct you'd probably be able to put batteries in at least one of them and sell them at more than just toy stores.....

:)

R..

Heck, I don't think that they'd have to be anatomically correct... Since one of them resembles a huge "organ" anyway. :D

...Of course, you didn't hear me say that, especially since I'm going the DIR route and have to deal with him regardless. :)

[100days-a-year]

Ahh....the relative anonymity of the internet....allowing people to cast aspersions at people they'd never address harshly in real life.SeaJay you will be pleasantly surprised when and if you meet that "organ"He is actually not what he appears in his writing.Go to Pinas website and see how she portrays him.JJs even nicer.I've only met one of the "gooey guys"in person that wasn't kind and helpful and he has been that way before his association with them.

[SeaJay]

I've met him.

...Frankly, I didn't think that about him until I met him. I think the world of JJ, by the way.

...Also, I'm SeaJay in real life as well...

Sorry, boss... No anonymity there...

But I'm not Trey's biggest concern right now... Apparently someone else has all of his attention right now.

You know, if he would just be a little nicer to people...

[phree337]

Well. . . I haven't met either one, so I'll form my opinions if/when I do. I just thought the idea of the action figures was funny.

Anybody else wanna chime in on prerequisites for technical diving??

[Scuba_Vixen]

There's basically 2 ways to get there that have proven track records....

The GUE track that Bwerb laid out... or

The OW, AOW, Rescue (toss in nitrox there somewhere too)

and regardless of which path you take,
Dive a lot and build experience.....If you take shortcuts, you're the one that looses.


Whichever you choose, you'll never get any more out of a course than you put into it, be ready to work your a$$ off.


Hope that cleared it up,


Darlene

[100days-a-year]

Did anyone mention lotsa money and the time to devote to classes?That and a fanatical attention to detail.