iantd advanced nitrox vs. tdi advanced nitrox

[mannydib]

any comments on how these are same/different better/worse etc?

[Waterlover]

It's all about the instructor. Find yourself a good one, won't make a difference which card you get. The difference is all about the instructor....Good Luck...

[sasdasdaf]

Manny, in my opinion they are both worse... look into GUE as they have the highest standards and teach a standardized curriculum.

[padiscubapro]

DeepTechScuba once bubbled...
NAUI, IANTD, and TDI all teach very similar courses for advanced nitrox.

You will learn the major formulas for technical nitrox, rather than using tables like you did in basic nitrox, and you will be qualified to use all nitrox mixes up to 100% oxygen as a deco or diving mix.

There will typically be 3 to 4 open water dives in your advanced nitrox class, and you may or may not sling a stage tank on one or all of the dives, depending on the instructor.

Ask your potential instructors what you will do in the course, and compare them. Then pick the instructor who gives you the most.

Another thing to be careful about is to see how highly qualified your technical instructor really is. The highest certification is as a cave diving instructor. The next highest certification is as an advanced trimix instructor.

Some instructors are only rated to teach basic norm-oxic trimix to 200 ft.

Some instructors are not yet rated to teach trimix at all.

Pick the instructor who is the most qualified from among your choices because he/she can then take you as far as you might want to go.

just because the instructor teaches cave doesn't mean they are qualified to teach trimix classes.

all it meas is that they can teach OC cave..

in agencies that teach CCR rebreathers, the highest rating is a CCR-trimix instructor, cave is just a "specialty". There are cave instructors without equivalent advanced trimix ratings... It varies with the agency

CCR gas theory is much more advanced than OC gas theory, if done right..

If someone is teaching CCR trimix cave, now thats an advanced class... or an equivalent advanced wreck penetration class.. each has its own dangers just because you are an expert in one enviroment doesn't mean you are in the other..

advanced wreck exploration and Cave both have different skills and procedures that have to be learned..

[O-ring]

Take whichever one you want...it really doesn't matter. IMHO, the advanced nitrox is beyond worthless unless you take a deco procedures class (or equivalent) also.

Are you really going to be doing that many shallow dives on >40% nitrox?

If you are going the deco route, then instructor choice gets really important really quickly. Choose wisely..

[MechDiver]

DeepTechScuba once bubbled...
NAUI, IANTD, and TDI all teach very similar courses for advanced nitrox.

You will learn the major formulas for technical nitrox, rather than using tables like you did in basic nitrox, and you will be qualified to use all nitrox mixes up to 100% oxygen as a deco or diving mix.



IANTD Adv. Nitrox certifies you to use up to 50% EAN, not O2. Technical nitrox is covered in trimix class.

MD

[BigJetDriver]

sasdasdaf once bubbled...
Manny, in my opinion they are both (Editor's note: referring to both IANTD and TDI) worse (sic)... look into GUE as they have the highest standards and teach a standardized curriculum.

Really? Both?:wacko:

Here we have a classic example of the "shoot from the lip" style that so infuriates a lot of other divers when it comes to certain members of the GUE who can ABSOLUTELY be called
"cultists!":whack:

[sasdasdaf]

I said that he should look into GUE "as they have the highest standards and teach a standardized curriculum".

Which part of the above statement is false?

[O-ring]

sasdasdaf once bubbled...
I said that he should look into GUE "as they have the highest standards and teach a standardized curriculum".

Which part of the above statement is false?
I don't see a falsehood personally, but can understand how that might piss other people off. From my experience with TDI and GUE (multiple classes from each), GUE's standards were much higher.

[Green_Manelishi]

One thing for sure: Tom Mount, Brett Gilliam, George Irvine and Jarrod Jablonski (not to mention Terrence Tysall and a plethora of others) have all done more and more physically/mentally demanding dives than most of us will do in several lifetimes.

Personally, I don't much care from whom I learn as long as
I am continually learning.

[O-ring]

All I can say to that is: hey, buddy, lets step outside and settle this once and for all just between you and me!

(Whenever I have said this in the past, all of them have run away.)
You are asking the wrong ones... Stop asking all the tiny ones.

[mannydib]

ive dove with alot of DIR guys and not all their gear is Halcyon

one of them lent me his single tank rig:
the blackplate and regs are Dive Rite
the wing is Halcyon

Dive Rite's Classic Wing is ok with DIR
they basically dont dig bungee on the wing

they use Dive Rite lift bags as well

the DIR insistance on conformity is basically to ensure that everybody on the team is on the same page

it may be overkill in some situations but it insures good disipline

[mannydib]

i have no problem diving DIR when in a DIR team

my main problem is that they expect me to follow the style even when diving with non-dir divers
if i dive with a team that wants to dive ean36 to 80' for 40 min using al 100s then i become a leper and banished?
thats the part that makes it seem cultish

[O-ring]

mannydib once bubbled...
i have no problem diving DIR when in a DIR team

my main problem is that they expect me to follow the style even when diving with non-dir divers
if i dive with a team that wants to dive ean36 to 80' for 40 min using al 100s then i become a leper and banished?
thats the part that makes it seem cultish

[bwerb]

DeepTechScuba once bubbled...
Also, GUE gear is called "halcyon." You will have to re-gear in halcyon stuff. That is not necessarily bad, as long as you have not already bought everything. Their gear is fine, and for some applications their gear is superb. Point being, you will have to throw away most of your 'old' gear.



This entire paragraph is 100% complete BUNK!

You seem to have some real "issues" around GUE and dive philosphies, but if you are going to make comments, at least get your facts straight.

GUE courses are open to gear made by ANY manufacturer as long as they meet the requirements (which have been posted on this board dozens of times and are available on the GUE website).

1.) BP/Wings - no bungied wings (Dive-Rite, Koplin, OMS, OxyCheq, Fred-T, etc. all make products which work).
2.) Long-hose/bungied back-up regulator set-up.
3.) No split fins.

So...out of the three main requirements...Halcyon doesn't even make two of the products (regs/fins) and the first requirement is covered-off by numerous other companies.

Nice try but no dice.

[sasdasdaf]

Manny, the idea is that diving with other DIR divers goes a long way for peace of mind. That is because we have all been trained the same way, our gear is identical, and we provide predictable responses to issues that might arise. In this way, DIR divers make a cohesive team. In any DIR class, you learn that situational awareness and teamwork is paramount. This isn't meant to be a knock on anyone, but the fact is, diving with non-DIR divers tends to be more stressful and less safe.

[BigJetDriver]

sasdasdaf once bubbled...
Manny, the idea is that diving with other DIR divers goes a long way for peace of mind. That is because we have all been trained the same way, our gear is identical, and we provide predictable responses to issues that might arise. In this way, DIR divers make a cohesive team. In any DIR class, you learn that situational awareness and teamwork is paramount. This isn't meant to be a knock on anyone, but the fact is, diving with non-DIR divers tends to be more stressful and less safe.

This isn't meant to be a knock on anyone (he says, very casually)....BUT OF COURSE IT IS...on anyone who is not "blessed" with the stamp of being holy and DIR!

How does a cultist feel when I say: "This isn't meant to be a knock on anyone, but the fact is that diving with DIR divers tends to be more stressful and less safe because their robotic training keeps them from using their heads and any common sense that they might have. Besides, their antiquated equipment configuration, Amish Diving Society fear of computers, and wave-of-the-hand casual disregard for proper decompression procedures makes them candidates for the hyperbaric chamber, if not the looney bin!

The previous comment is not meant to be a knock on anyone, OF COURSE!!!!:livid:

[nyresq]

"big jet said"

Amish Diving Society fear of computers,


I didn't know the Amish had divers?

how do they get those hats under thier hoods?:D

[Albion]

BigJetDriver69 once bubbled...


Amish Diving Society fear of computers

How long before GUE list beards and eccentric hats as part of the equipment requirements

[padiscubapro]

DeepTechScuba once bubbled...
CCR ... what a way to die! I personally stay away from CCRs.



for a properly experienced and trained CCR diver there are many more ways to save your hide than an oc diver..

The majority of dive deaths eventually come down to running out of gas... for this to hapen to a CCR diver, theyd have to be a fool....

At the start of ones CCR experience the units are more dangerous than OC but once you understand what is necessary and don;t skip safety checks, you untilmately have a lower risk factor especially on deep dives...

This is not an ANDI plug but a fact.. out of all the tech agencies out there, ANDI HAS the best safety record.. ANDI has yet to have an insurance claim in its HISTORY... thats over 15 years now... There is no other agency that is close... I would not want to be the first instructor to have a claim....

This covers open water diver ratings, through unlimited depth trimix ccr courses...

[Scuba_Vixen]

That is because we have all been trained the same way, our gear is identical, and we provide predictable responses to issues that might arise. In this way, (blank) divers make a cohesive team. In any (blank) class, you learn that situational awareness and teamwork is paramount.

Now who gets to really make that claim...........

The choices are:

1) Scientology

2) Jehova's Witnesses

3) Moonies

4) Chistian Scientists

5) Latter Day Saints....Holly cow, the LDS initials again...

6) The guys that thought the comet a decade back was a spaceship to take them to heaven

7) DIR

8) U.S. Marines

9) The other military guys



I'm betting on an even split


All in fun, not knocking anyone of course,


Darlene

[nyresq]

10) the Amish diving society

[Scuba_Vixen]

I had the phrase already copied, but forgot to paste, lol

Glad you got it up there.

Darlene

[O-ring]

Can we get back on topic here? If you guys want to dive solo and flop around on the bottom stirring up the viz whilst breathing 12.3/24.8, nobody is stopping you.

You dive your way, I'll dive mine..

[Dryglove]

O-ring once bubbled...

You are asking the wrong ones... Stop asking all the tiny ones.

You better watch out, O-ring knows all that secret stuff. He will strangle you with his long hose before you can blink :D

[DeepScuba]

WAy back, before we started talking about why George Irvine's number 1 rule is, Never dive with a stroke (Bring a body bag if you do), we were discussing Advanced Nitrox, TDI or IANTD.

I'm not gonna start up on the DIR Dudes, exept to say I'm glad my good buddy BigJetDriver69 is here to defend rationalism and thinking for yourself...and GEE I wonder why we get annoyed by the DIR crowd.....

Anyways, I just wanted to say that I agree with O-ring as it pertains to TDI's Adv Nitrox course. It would be a waste to do without doing it with the Deco course, which by the way, I believe is how it is generally taught anyways.

They are probably all good courses IF taught by a competent instructor, which is my belief about most courses.

FWIW, my course was taught by a Trimix Instructor.....he is cave certified, but not a cave instructor.

The guy clearly knows his stuff......and the more I learn, the more I realize what he knows.....

Regards

[O-ring]

..they are usually taught together, but since the post didn't mention it, I figured it prudent to bring it up and possibly save someone the hassle of having to take it later when he may be able to combine it now and either get it cheaper or get it done quicker (combining checkout dives).


I'm not gonna start up on the DIR Dudes, exept to say I'm glad my good buddy BigJetDriver69 is here to defend rationalism and thinking for yourself...and GEE I wonder why we get annoyed by the DIR crowd.....
That's ok...all in good fun. I am sure the DIR types get annoyed with the POS (preference over standardization) divers too..

[runvus4]

I don' know about TDI, and as an aside from the other agencies mentioned in the thread...

If you go with IANTD, then I would strongly reccomend that insted of Advanced Nitrox, you go for Advanced Recreational Trimix with the extended range/deco class. As others have mentioned, taking Advanced Nitrox (or Advanced Recreational Trimix) with a 10 minute max deco (and 50% O2 max? I 'm not sure about this limit without some further research but it sounds likely) is IMHO goofy.

I reccomend the Advanced Recreational Trimix as the if you qualify for Advanced Trimix, then you by default qualify for all the Nitrox mixes, get the same O2 max and Deco limit, and they both cover all the same basic theory/dive planning and have the same pre-requisites.

[DeepScuba]

OK, O-ring, if truth be told, I'm 80% DIR, probably more, but I don't wanna give myself too much.......... Errrrrrr...... Credit :D

TDI has no "Max Deco" time limit, and you're covered for use up to 100% O2

The Intro and "Full" Trimix course do bug me though. At this point, it's all been covered, so there should be just 1 Trimix course (for TDI). I think it's a play for just one more course..Shame shame.......... TDI and because of that, after Intro to Trimix (Or whatever it's called, I can't remember right now), I not going to do the "Advanced" for the sake of another card and a few more "official" feet of depth.

Yeah right. At this point, it's just all about more diving, as the thoery has been learned already.

[padiscubapro]

DeepScuba once bubbled...
OK, O-ring, if truth be told, I'm 80% DIR, probably more, but I don't wanna give myself too much.......... Errrrrrr...... Credit :D

TDI has no "Max Deco" time limit, and you're covered for use up to 100% O2

The Intro and "Full" Trimix course do bug me though. At this point, it's all been covered, so there should be just 1 Trimix course (for TDI). I think it's a play for just one more course..Shame shame.......... TDI and because of that, after Intro to Trimix (Or whatever it's called, I can't remember right now), I not going to do the "Advanced" for the sake of another card and a few more "official" feet of depth.

Yeah right. At this point, it's just all about more diving, as the thoery has been learned already.

The problem is.... without the proper certification you may not be allowed to do certain dives without the card.. I know up in the NE there are boats that wount allow you to do the deeper wrecks without a full trimix cert..

Places like Cayman who have just officially started allowing tech diving (yeah I know sunset house and dive tech allowed it) but now the cayman watersports allows it... The catch you are only allowed to dive to certification limits.. If you break your limits the operation is not supposed to let you continue diving whether you paid or not..

the intro trimix for an TDI class is not necessary for full trimix, you have to take adv nitrox + deco procedures followed by EXT range OR entry level trimix, then full trimix... so its the same amount of classes its just how fast you get on mix..


if you already had ext range and had the proper experience, its best just to take the advanced trimix, if on the otherhand you are relatively new at tech diving the extra class can be a benefit...

[DeepScuba]

I would hope (and if it's not the same, I think it's a bit of a crock) that the NE charters would accept "Basic" Trimix (TDI max depth of 200ft) would be enough to do, say, the Doria.

Since you have to do all the courses before that, you know darn well that anyone that has the Basic Trimix course already, probably knows what they are doing....and if not, well, it's your a$$.

Didn't what-his-name say that, as the boat Captain, it's his job to get you to the wrecks and not to do the dive for you.

I like that philosophy.

This would ensure that you'd better come prepared, with a buddy/team you trust. AS it should be.

We are certainly "carded" to death anymore. ANd it isn't ALL for our own good, but more so for the good of "another course" for the Tech agencies.

regards.

Start flamethrowers now

:out:

[padiscubapro]

DeepScuba once bubbled...
I would hope (and if it's not the same, I think it's a bit of a crock) that the NE charters would accept "Basic" Trimix (TDI max depth of 200ft) would be enough to do, say, the Doria.

Since you have to do all the courses before that, you know darn well that anyone that has the Basic Trimix course already, probably knows what they are doing....and if not, well, it's your a$$.

Didn't what-his-name say that, as the boat Captain, it's his job to get you to the wrecks and not to do the dive for you.

I like that philosophy.

This would ensure that you'd better come prepared, with a buddy/team you trust. AS it should be.

We are certainly "carded" to death anymore. ANd it isn't ALL for our own good, but more so for the good of "another course" for the Tech agencies.

regards.

Start flamethrowers now

:out:

the 200ft trimix limit wouldn't fly on many boats especially when diving the doria.. Check out a few of the websites for NE dive boats..

here is a quote right off the seeker's website

"All participants are required to have the proper certification for dives in which they are participating, based on current industry training standards. For dives beyond 190 f.s.w. you must have Trimix certification, (Normoxic trimix is not applicable). The only exceptions will be for students with their instructors, doing certification dives. A photocopy of each participants certification card is required for dives beyond 190 f.s.w."

besides fullfilling this

"You must provide SEEKER ( Deep Explorers, Inc.) with the following for dives beyond the 190’ level:

a completed, signed and notarized Liability Release. This must be done a minimum of 48 hours prior to departure.
a completed copy of the Diver's Data Sheet and physicians note if necessary. This is to be kept on the boat in case of an emergency.
a legible photocopy of both sides of your certification card (Trimix)
a legible photocopy of your current DAN Master Insurance, or equivalent"

[padiscubapro]

DeepTechScuba once bubbled...
The NOAA Diving Manual in the trimix chapter speaks of air diving as having its limits to about 150 ft, and trimix diving applicable beyond that.

The TDI Basic Trimix cards state their certification limit as 200 ft.

And the TDI Advanced Trimix cards state on them that their certification is limited to 330 ft.

The NOAA Manual in their trimix diving chapter also states that it is their policy for any dives to 400 fsw and beyond to use a saturation diving procedure rather than scuba.

That seems to define the frontier limits of scuba fairly clearly.

Having read PScubaPro's comments on the boat requirements in the Atlantic and Caribbean, I am glad TDI states their diving certification limits on their cards.

I do not know if IANTD does this as well, or not.

Back to the original question, as to whether or not to go with IANTD or TDI, either one or even several other options seems fine to me, as long as you GO ALL THE WAY and make sure you finish up with the advanced trimix certification.

I do not know if GUE is "recognized" on the Atlantic Coast or in the Caribbean? I guess you would have to ask the boat captains?! :)

ANDI lists the requirements and limitations in detail for every certification level.. Full trimix has no depth restrictions (based solely on experience and available support), the only restriction is during training the dives are limited to 100m/327 fsw.

[padiscubapro]

DeepScuba once bubbled...
I would hope (and if it's not the same, I think it's a bit of a crock) that the NE charters would accept "Basic" Trimix (TDI max depth of 200ft) would be enough to do, say, the Doria.

Since you have to do all the courses before that, you know darn well that anyone that has the Basic Trimix course already, probably knows what they are doing....and if not, well, it's your a$$.

Didn't what-his-name say that, as the boat Captain, it's his job to get you to the wrecks and not to do the dive for you.

I like that philosophy.

This would ensure that you'd better come prepared, with a buddy/team you trust. AS it should be.

We are certainly "carded" to death anymore. ANd it isn't ALL for our own good, but more so for the good of "another course" for the Tech agencies.

regards.

Start flamethrowers now

:out:

If you came to me for a trimix fill, the first thing I as for is you C card.. depending on the agency the basic trimix will allow somehwere around 18% oxygen... thats the leanest mix you would get from me.. any fill station that gives you a hypoxic mix is opening themselves up to being sued if you kill yourself..

limiting yourself to a po2 of 1.4 would limit your depth to 223fsw, not deep enough for the sand on the doria or any pary of u-who, the carolina, or any of the really good wrecks up here..

You would have to push you PO2 to the neighborhood of 1.6 to dive these wrecks..

[Scuba_Vixen]

Follow a pretty logical break point between the two. Entry is strictly a normoxic mix course.... You can breath backgas at the surface, and descend on it..(worst case scneario, you could deco on it too)......depth is limited by PO2. (Although 200' seems to be pushing it for 21%, which is TDI's definition of normoxic. Others consider 18% to 24% inclusive to be normoxic, which would cover 200' to 220' nicely, so I guess it's a bit of gray area there). ......Also, you don't have to carry 2 deco gasses for efficient deco...(obviously that changes with experience and longer run time dives).... one cylinder isn't so hard to manage as your mind is preoccupied somewhat with different deco profiles than you were used to before mix. On the other hand, Advanced is their hypoxic course, and involves a greater level of planning, task loading, and equipment management skills. You can't breath the backgas at the surface anymore, so you have to "travel" on something else.....usually your deep deco mix, but could be an intermediate trimix for 10% or 12% O2 bottom mixes.... And now you have at least 1 or 2 more cylinders and switches to manage. When you get to hypoxic mix, the error chain gets Real short, and the number of non-fatal/serious injury errors gets Real small. I like seeing the courses seperated like that. ....However....I'm still trying to understand why you can bypass Entry Tri if you do Extd. Range instead...... Nearest I can guess is they figure if you can handle a controlled ascent and a couple deco gasses after having the snot narced out of you, you can handle about anything.

BTW...My card says 300', not 330'...has it changed?


Darlene

[DeepScuba]

Thanks for the info padiscubapro

By the way, I'm a certified gas blender and mix and dive my own Trimix if I want to, without the (Trimix) card!!!!:wacko:

NOW start the flame-throwers!!!!!!!!

I guess I know "Which" of my "Instructor" buddies are coming with me to do the Doria!!!

Hahah

Where there's a will, there's a way!

SEEKER!!!! I thought they didn't even ask!!!!!

Hahahahah

P.S> Like I've said padiscubapro, I know the math, and the rest is just diving experience, card or no card at THAT Point. I'm NOT talking padi OW to TDI Full Trimix in a week!

Ooooohhh I can feel the heat already on the seat of my pants!!!!

regards, kids.

[padiscubapro]

Scuba_Vixen once bubbled...
Follow a pretty logical break point between the two. Entry is strictly a normoxic mix course.... You can breath backgas at the surface, and descend on it..(worst case scneario, you could deco on it too)......depth is limited by PO2. (Although 200' seems to be pushing it for 21%, which is TDI's definition of normoxic. Others consider 18% to 24% inclusive to be normoxic, which would cover 200' to 220' nicely, so I guess it's a bit of gray area there). ......Also, you don't have to carry 2 deco gasses for efficient deco...(obviously that changes with experience and longer run time dives).... one cylinder isn't so hard to manage as your mind is preoccupied somewhat with different deco profiles than you were used to before mix. On the other hand, Advanced is their hypoxic course, and involves a greater level of planning, task loading, and equipment management skills. You can't breath the backgas at the surface anymore, so you have to "travel" on something else.....usually your deep deco mix, but could be an intermediate trimix for 10% or 12% O2 bottom mixes.... And now you have at least 1 or 2 more cylinders and switches to manage. When you get to hypoxic mix, the error chain gets Real short, and the number of non-fatal/serious injury errors gets Real small. I like seeing the courses seperated like that. ....However....I'm still trying to understand why you can bypass Entry Tri if you do Extd. Range instead...... Nearest I can guess is they figure if you can handle a controlled ascent and a couple deco gasses after having the snot narced out of you, you can handle about anything.

BTW...My card says 300', not 330'...has it changed?


Darlene

per latest TDI update.. entry level trimix is to have a minimum of 18% oxygen

Dpending on how a class is done entry level is definately not necessary..

ANDI never even had an "entry" level class until just a few years ago and the addition was because in some areas they were unable get the required depth for certification..

The difference between full and entry is basically task loading.. in the ANDI program EXT range has a limit of 50m no deeper than the technical diver class, the main differance is dive duration (required deco) and number of cylinders carried..

Our progression is currently technical diver, ext range then full trimix.. for CCR classes, technical RB diver then full trimix..

If you are trained to handle the task loading the baby step is not necessary.. My feeling is that TDI is now treating ext range and entry level as equivalent programs which if taught correctly they are..

[padiscubapro]

DeepScuba once bubbled...
Thanks for the info padiscubapro

By the way, I'm a certified gas blender and mix and dive my own Trimix if I want to, without the (Trimix) card!!!!:wacko:

NOW start the flame-throwers!!!!!!!!

I guess I know "Which" of my "Instructor" buddies are coming with me to do the Doria!!!

Hahah

Where there's a will, there's a way!

SEEKER!!!! I thought they didn't even ask!!!!!

Hahahahah

P.S> Like I've said padiscubapro, I know the math, and the rest is just diving experience, card or no card at THAT Point. I'm NOT talking padi OW to TDI Full Trimix in a week!

Ooooohhh I can feel the heat already on the seat of my pants!!!!

regards, kids.

I mixed and dive my own for many years before I was mix certified.. The requirement to show proof is what originally made me get mix certified.. The boats are now all trying to cover their as*es. Hey, If you can get your instructor buddy to take responsiblity for you thats great and I see nothing wrong with it.. but he will have to sign your waiver as the responsible party..
I know I would do the same (for a friend) but then he'd be signing a waiver to me and would follow my profiles and dive with me...

[DeepScuba]

Aw, we're doing the Gunilda anyways. They won't ask us squat :-)

Hahahah, hey I'm just kidding, I don't know that, I'm just kidding.

Well about the asking us thing.

I guess we're just the "old" school in the new age. We'll do stuff the "Agencies" say we're not qualified to do, so what.

Some call it dumb, some call it cavalier..whatever. What did everyone else do before there were mixed gas classes?

We're far more educated (as a whole) now than they were even 10-15 years ago.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying what people can do without the "Agency's" approval BUT with training. Info, GOOD info is easy to get.

Regards.




:flame:

[Scuba_Vixen]

"Nearest I can guess is they figure if you can handle a controlled ascent and a couple deco gasses after having the snot narced out of you, you can handle about anything. "

That about sums up task loading though, ...and as you say, the normoxic part of Advanced was a baby step from there. (unless it's changed, TDI used to be 180fsw for ER).....Wouldn't mind seeing that revised back some....

Darlene

[padiscubapro]

DeepTechScuba once bubbled...
Yes, Darlene, the TDI cards say 330 now. I guess Brett went international (as in metric) and so for the advanced card to read "100m/330ft" the math had to tie out!

Yes, I agree with Darlene, that there is beauty in an entry level mix course. Here is why.

A tech instructor I know once bubbled: "In technical diving the thing that is most likely to kill you is BREATHING THE WRONG GAS AT THE WRONG DEPTH." True, true.

So here are five various ways that a trimix dive can kill you, especially if you are a student, but not limited to students alone:

1) You start to breathe your backgas on the surface before you are deep enough for the ppO2 in it to be able to sustain consciousness;

2) You use the wrong stage tank as your travel mix and you breath on it too long, hoping to save backgas, and you tox;

3) You have a backgas problem at MOD and you panic and switch to either of your deco mixes and you tox;

4) You cannot keep track of all of your hoses wrapped around your body and neck and you put the wrong second stage (used to be called "your mouthpiece") in your mouth at the wrong depth and you tox;

5) You switch during ascent to your rich mix too deep mistakening it for your lean mix and you tox.

As Vixen has already pointed out, a normoxic mix class eliminates 2 out of the 5 above ways you could die on mix.

Regarding TDI's advanced deep air class (aka extended range), I completely agree that this course is a farce. I remember being totally narked at 185 fsw during that class, and I did not get anything at all out of it, other than about $500 poorer for having paid for it.

The only hoses that get necklaced to you are your back gas regs.. no other mix shoud be there.. as for stages, I teach in all my clases whether it be ANDI or TDI, to use the ANDI gas switch protocol and labeling.. Whenever more than 1 mix is used all second stages are tagged in a manner where the contents are visible to your buddy, so if you put the wrong reg in your mouth your buddy immediately knows, and all gas switches are signaled... no exceptions....

every single one of those are avoidable with the above protocol... no gas switches are done without your buddy... period..

If the TDI ext range is taught properly its about dive planning and skill training.. there is no need (or requiremente) to go to the max 180 fsw.. all my ext range classes are taught to a max of 50m, with some students shallower.. It all depends on my evaluation of them at depth... all that is required is that the dives be conducted to at least 40m. The ONLY exception I would have to this is if the student tells me hes going to a place like bikini or truk where he/she is planning deep air dives, In a controlled enviroment I would extend the depth so under a controlled situation the diver could evaluate themselves... I would make sure they do some skill to demonstrate the narcosis just in case the person doesn't "feel" or remember the narcosis..

Skills can be overlearned enough to become automatic enough to in most likely hood save you butt.. Its not something I recommend But I acknowledge people will do it as I have done (I don;t believe in being a hypocrite) myself when it was necessary.. but thats my personal decision..

[DeepScuba]

Now you see DTScuba (My distant cousin) you could probably add even more reason to that list, but it still all boils down to all those things being "academic". AS in, you KNOW they are mental errors.

They need not be specific to and "Advanced" class, but are taught even at the "Entry" level.

We are assuming folks are smart enough to wanna survive, so they'll take it seriously. If not, as you guys say, Darwin's waiting for you!

AS a case in point, I simply wouldn't be doing 185-200 on air. I didn't need any class to inform me that it's on the edge of what some people call safety. Why is anyone getting narced at those depths when they don't need to be?

Oooops, there's my 80% DIR thinking coming out. But I believe it's a safe practice (Mix over air, beyond XXXft)


As far as gas swithces, I agree with PAdiS/Pro, they are academic, and when performed correctly, are not a problem.

AS I said earlier, and I will refine it more here, Tech students are far more academically astute (when it comes to theory) than they were 10-15 years ago.

This, combined with practice, makes for better, safer divers.