Make Good Money as a Scuba Instructor [Archive]

captdave

October 11th, 2001, 09:42 PM

You guys sure do a lot of crying. Nobody promised you a rose garden...Unfortunately when you learn how to teach scuba nobody tells you how to make money as a scuba instructor. There are courses available in this. Frankly to make any money in this industry you need to be an independent who works loyally with his or her scuba shop. Loyalty is the key word.
If any of you out their want to learn there is some great books "How to make money as a scuba instructor" This is how I learned to do multi level training? Boy that really boosts your income and does not cause you to skip standards>
Another good reference is How to make $10,000.00 in Two weeks teaching scuba...It is being done all the time.... I did it.
Potential students have a belief that all certification classes are created approximately equal and they tend to make decisions on their entry-level dive course based on price. Once they have found cheap.. They stay cheap.

Frankly if you are not making $100,000.00 a year teaching scuba your screwing up. It may take a few years to establish your client base but it is attainable and sustainable.

Well here goes guys.
The first thing you have to do is to set yourself apart from the regular run of the mill scuba instructor. You need to make a deal with your dive shop. Believe me any dive shop owner will love you if you make good money because they make a lot more with you than with the regulars that just say; where is my next student.
The Deal.
Tell your shop that you will keep working with their pay scale but that you want to bring in your own students aside from theirs and that you will charge them yourself. You will sell only the shops scuba equipment and charter the shops dive boats. You must set up a commission on your sale of equipment as this adds to your income. You should ask for 15% and settle for 12%. Now think about that. If you train 100 students a year and they spend $1500.00 on scuba equipment. That figures out to about $18,000.00 at 12% and you haven't even put your foot in the pool. The key is to sell scuba equipment complete packages to your students. This requires selective students on your part.
The dive shop owner will love this...
Have any of you trained a 100 students a year. I do it all the time.. It is easy...
The trick is to get the quality students you want and how to keep them loyal to you so your back end (repeat business and sales) defies industry standards.
This is not easy. Do not get the idea it is get rich quick deal it takes a lot of work and commitment but it is attainable. Keep an open mind....
Scenario #1
your average class is 9 students 6 guys and 3 girls.
Your in cold water and so everybody has to wear wetsuits strap on 25-30 pounds of weight then one of the girls has to pee. You tell her to pee in her suit when you get in the water. You make a surf entry.
Someone gets seasick; a weight belt is lost. Someone needs more weight. Buy the time you finish the skills and time to go on the tour 2 guys are nearly out of air one of the girls is exhausted and they look at you like are you sure this is the fun stuff you promised...4 of the guys can't wait to go again. Two guys stare at you in disbelief.and there is another dive for cert. dive # 2.

Or you could:

#2 scenario.
Your luxury live aboard has just anchored in the sand off
the Turks and Caicos.Your in 30 feet of water with 83-degree water temperature. A shallow reef is nearby.
You prepare your dive float and toss it 10 feet off the stern. You tell the boats other instructors your plans.
Next you assign each of your students a number say 1 to 10
That right I said 10 students. When 1 is on the platform ready to dive #2 begins to suit up with the help of the other two instructors.
You and student #1 descend to 30 feet with 100-foot visibility
and 83-degree water temp. You�re in skins with 4 lb. of weight and the student is wearing 8lbs.
Your dive master is waiting with your underwater video camera. You have a full-face dive mask with one way communication to your student and two-way communication to your divemaster. After 15 minutes you ascent completing all of the skills.
The crew assist this diver outs of the water and shows him how to tank up again.and stows his gear. About the same time student #2 descents with Instructor #2
Student #3 ready to dive with you again now looses his weight belt. No problem the boat crew simply hands another one and the lost belt is retrieved later.
After about 2 hours all of your students are done with the skills.
The boat crew is setting up lunch on the sundeck and you debrief your students with your videotape of their skills (Video is not necessary for this to work).
You then prepare them for their second dive and announce that there will be an afternoon fun and experience dive planned for all divers.

Now.
Which class would you like to teach ?

Here we go again!
First of all if your local shop won't work with you (They are Dinosaurs) Now is as good as anytime to make good money as a scuba instructor. There at literally dozens of shops that will.you DO NOT HAVE to have a local shop to work with. I own a shop and would love to have you work with Mme. know a shop in Mexico that will give you classroom pool facilities dive masters instructors etc. I also have these available for any instructor free of charge. Just sell my equipment is all I ask, and I will give you a top commission. All live aboard have these services available to you.
Logistics, Logistics.Logistics. This is the key. Let me explain further. I should be charging you all big money for this information maybe some time down the road you will work with me or sell equipment to your students from my shop or my on line scuba catalog <http://www.diveremporium.com>

The point is there is two ways to teach scuba:

LOW TICKET AND HIGH TICKET!
1.Low ticket logistics Cold water, Thick wetsuits lots of weight, surface swims no restrooms, low vis, emergency equipment 10 minutes away, possible overheating, possible hypothermia, surf exits, lost equipment hard to retrieve.etc.etc.etc.

2. High ticket logistics=Warm water, lycra suits, low weights, food served, emergency equipment seconds away, 100 foot visiblity, great underwater scenery, extra dive equipment seconds away, showers to rinse off, one step entry, no float towing, easy to retrieve lost equipment, backup instructor, crew available to assist.

If diving is hard many of your students will not like it. Introduction to diving must be easy fun and your students; all of them must love it. If they do chances are they will keep doing it WITH YOU making it easy for you, as you don't have to go out and find so many new students.

The cafeteria style of training students is stupid makes nobody any money and produces less than adequately trained divers.

I know what you�re thinking: This sounds real good but none of my students can afford it or they can get it cheaper in my local shop

DONT YOU BELIEVE this. It is just plain WRONG!

True, The Turks and Caicos,, Grand Cayman, Hawaii, Australia, Belieze, Cozumel,The Sea of Cortez,The Bahamas,
Roatan,Palau,IS MORE EXPENSIVE! That is just what you want.
People get into this because they have seen the TV Pictures of these exotic dive vacations. Not to dive a Quarry.

Just because you think something is expensive does not mean they think it is expensive have had to fight some of my instructors to ask for $500 up front deposits because they thought this was too much. It is not too much and it is non-refundable as well.

TO many people $3000.00 for a week of safe fun and adventure is cheap. People spend this every day for adventure travel, ecological trips, and yes-even scuba.

If you cannot grasp this concept (GOOD BYE) you will spend your career-teaching budget minded students that want to dive "Cheap" I throw them out of my shop.

This type of "Client" will never allow you the income necessary to explore the great dive sites of the world; you will have to have a real job. Or live back in the compressor room to make ends meet. I have done this. Scuba is a great job but living in the shop back room gets old after a while.

Think about all of the people who dive regularly aboard the big live aboard fleets like the Agressor, Peter Hughes livaboards, and etc.etc.etc. If people could not afford to dive aboard these expensive fleets then the fleets would be shrinking right! Wrong! They are growing like crazy, in 1984 they started with one boat in less than ten years they expanded to all the great dive spots with 9 boats and they are still growing today and up grading there fleets.

THE MOST EXPENSIVE DIVE SITES ARE THE MOST POPULAR!

There is no shortage of people who can picture themselves diving in style but there is a severe shortage of scuba instructors who can imagine themselves working exclusively with clientele that travels, explores, and dives, and purchases only the best equipment. Equipment that you tell them to buy.

If you believe that a normal class sells from $100-$400 starts in a pool, then travels to the local beach, blue hole, quarry. Then you are destined to be one of the small minded mediocre dive instructors who never gets past the dreaming stage of great diving and then you face the reality get a real job and hate it.

I am sorry if this insults some of you but unless you are brand new you know what I am saying is true. You may be the best technical instructor there is but if you don't get the correct mind setting you will live the dark side of the scuba instructor business. Don�t blame me. I am trying to show you the way.

Lets face it teaching scuba is hard work. Don�t you think your services are valuable? Your customers trust you with their lives! Then why should you get paid less than a car mechanic should, massage therapist, or handyman.

Considering your responsibility and the liability. You are worth the pay of a doctor, lawyer, professor, and etc.etc. IF YOU ARE VERY GOOD!

Some of the cert. agencies don't like this because they make their money by the numbers.the more students, divemasters, instructrs etc. that get pumped out is how they make their money. Don�t get me wrong. I love all of these agencies they provide us a valuable service but if you follow the traditional system you end up not teaching scuba and they just pump out another one to take your low paid place and as everybody has heard. We do this because we love it. It is a live style and money is not the object!
BULLROAR! I do this because I want to dive the top sites in the world make great friends and live the way one is supposed to.
I know this because I have lived both sides of this track!

Should I go on?

Hey Beluisi

I don't think you have been listening to me. It does not matter where you are. Cold climates are really the best to use this system. Colorado certifies more divers than some coastal areas. They all have to travel to dive. What matters is how you acquire the students and where you take them. Again I repeat if you start with cheap students you get no where. I have heard this over and over again about how they run down the prices. IF I get someone who tries this tactic on me I politely tell him or her they would be happier diving elsewhere and pass on them. They are not worth your time or effort.
There are many more students who will be glad to take your advice on what to purchase and what the true value of the equipment is.

The Diving industry has prostituted it self and that really works in our favor as we are the elite of a system that frankly makes it more easy for me to make real money.

I can see you have been on the dark side for too long if your license is still in tact you can do this part time to get started and then after a while you will be able to switch to full time top dollar earning scuba instructor.

Should I go on with the how and where�s?

captdave

October 11th, 2001, 09:48 PM

Hey Duca,
You do not need any money for this to work.. You do not need to own a dive shop and you only need to work 1 week a month while you are diving in the best dive sites of the world. You don't have to work that hard to make $50,000 a year. Im talking about one dive trip a month to make the $100.000. SO you go every other month for the 50..Besides it takes time to develop a clientel so you can start on a budget....

joewr

October 11th, 2001, 09:50 PM

there were darn few communist nations left on this planet Dave! I think we buried most of them during the Reagan years. Just what are you so hung up on about communists? Can't you just invite folks to hear what you have to say without invective? Give us a break, Dave, we are over 21 and most of us lived through the Cold War...and saw the Berlin Wall come down!

Joewr...inveterate capitalist...West Coast Style...

syruss32

October 11th, 2001, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by joewr
there were darn few communist nations left on this planet Dave! I think we buried most of them during the Reagan years. Just what are you so hung up on about communists? Can't you just invite folks to hear what you have to say without invective? Give us a break, Dave, we are over 21 and most of us lived through the Cold War...and saw the Berlin Wall come down!

Joewr...inveterate capitalist...West Coast Style...

I love ya Joewr, your 'da man!

joewr

October 11th, 2001, 10:17 PM

"In God we trust"...all others bring data!

Well, here are some course prices for OW cert in various "paradise" locations:

Maui Dive Shop, Maui, HA $350---40 hours of instruction

Chris Sawyer, St. Th., USVI $595---5 "days" of instr.

Kauai Divers, Kauai,HA $495---3-5 "days" of instr.

Habitat Resort, Bonaire $300--4 "days" of instr.

So, in Paradise for small classes it looks like ca. $10-20 per hour is the rate...and that is the total rate including the dive shop's cut.

These are all for classes of one to two divers. To make more money, you would have to charge more or have larger classes, not a very competitive concept...especially in a capitalistic system!

I was certified in the Virgin Islands in a class of two--it took 5 1/2 full days...nearly 60 hours. And if you can afford the the time and money, it is a great way to do it, but the teachers were not quite in the millionaire category!

Joewr

SpyderTek

October 11th, 2001, 10:46 PM

Yes, sure the class is about the same price no matter where you go in the world...

But Capt is talking about more than just the sticker price. He's talking the price of the class, Pluse the price of the liveaboard, plus the price of the equipment they didnt bring and now need to buy. Etc....

Even for thos of us with our own equipment and airfair and stuff the average price I am seeing for "dive weeks" to Bonaire, Coz and Balize are $1500.

I can totaly see what Capt. Is saying. And can see how it works...

However, not just anyone can do it. It takes a sales person's personality to be able to sell the big ticket items consistently.

SpyderTek

joewr

October 11th, 2001, 11:16 PM

And the ones who make it big offer something unique! When we talk about making money, the language is the same all over the world. There is something called Return on Capital Employed (ROCE): it is a measure of how successful one is a recovering his investment...somewhat like an interest rate.

Now,if you want to make money on your own, you usually need to make an investment. When an investor looks for a place to put his money, he looks for an high ROCE and in this capitalistic world (which I love). And there are lots of folks constantly looking for investments: banks, private investors, etc. But I can assure you that they will expect anyone they entrust their money to to have a good "story", including a very good ROCE.

If it takes no investment to make money, there will be a lot of competition--and it will make it hard to charge high prices.(Case 1) This should be common sense; if I offer you a chance to make a lot of money with no effort, wouldn't you jump at it?

If it takes a lot of money, then only folks with a lot of money or who can get a loan or financial backing will be able to enter the fray.(Case 2)

In competition theory, Case 1 is said to have a low entry barrier and Case 2 could have a high entry barrier if money is tight.

You can raise the entry barrier to your competition by having a unique product or skill. Microsoft is a great example of a unique product...and Mr. Gates' fortune is the result.

Now, what is the demand for high cost dive training? And how much do you have to invest to get the business? What is the purchase price or lease rate for a live-aboard? How much to crew it? How much for all the equipment? How about the cost of carrying all that inventory to sell things to folks who forgot all that gear? (How many $500 Henderson Golds are you willing to carry, for example.)

I spent a lot of years in business and have seen a lot of get quick rich schemes...most of the "rich getting" was done by the guys selling the schemes.

In fact, I have thought that the best way to get rich is to write a book on how to get rich--and get rich on the royalties! And that brings me to my final point: P.T. Barnum said it best, "There is a sucker born every minute--and two to take his money."

Well, enough. I hope I did not offend anyone...

Joewr...at a loss for words

captdave

October 11th, 2001, 11:31 PM

This information is give free. There is no get rich scheme here. Believe me this takes a whole lot of work.

Here is the next bit of information...

The way to do this is to package the program that appeals to people willing to spend money for a great adventure and lots of fun. Plus how to find these people
This means you are no longer giving scuba lessons or scuba classes.

What you are selling is SCUBA SEMINARS.

You charge your clients $3000.00 for an all-inclusive trip to one of the great dive resorts.

You can get the entire package as stated earlier a lot cheaper and that is what you do. You make the arrangements with the dive centers and the hotels and the boats etc. You should be able to get the entire week with food lodging and diving for around $850.00 add another $100.00 for incidental and your total cost for this seminar is $950-$1000.00. You use the resort facilities for your classrooms; pool or pool like conditions in the ocean equipment rental etc. etc. etc. Your students must supply their own basic 5 pieces of equipment (Mask, snorkel, fins, gloves, and boots). You make sure they get this equipment from you and your chosen dive shop that will work with you.

You can then make arrangements for their air fare to your resort that can cost anywhere from $500-$1000.00 Australia is $2000.00 so you have to charge the extra for the numbers to work out.

You take ten students on your scuba seminar and that leaves you with a cool profit of $10,000.00 for one week�s work. You can do this 10 to 12 times a year.
The great benefit of this type of seminar is that the people have paid a great deal of money to go on this adventure.
I can assure you many of the problems we are used to in the budget scuba class never happen. For Instance: Late and missed classes, late and unfinished assignments, classes that start out with 9 students and end up with two, too many worked hours for fee collected. Problems collecting the money, Students who just wanted to buy their C Card, Wives who really do not want to take the lessons but their husbands insisted, etc.

When people pay this kind of money they really want to do it and they don�t screw around. Plus the money is all collected up front with no refunds.

THIS DIVING ADVENTURE MUST BE A CONTINUING EXPERIENCE>

You follow up with the Advanced Course and 50-60% of the first students will go on to the Advanced Seminar. They will do this within the next year.

Now a great way to go is to create the basic and advanced in back to back weeks and you save the airfare for the second trip and your profits go way up.

This program develops superior divers from regular people. This means you must teach a superior course.

Next I will get into the meat and potatoes of this system. Where and how to find these students. The dynamics of a high priced scuba seminar and how to find the kind of customers it takes to make you what you are really worth as a scuba instructor.

Remember the Cert. Agencies have a vested interested in turning out a lot of students to do this they need for you to keep your prices reasonable. There are now three generations of scuba instructors who believe that this low budget system is the way to market scuba instruction. Continue on this path and make no money or
Copy a successful Instructor who actually made money in the business. Remember this stuff has worked and is time tested in not only scuba but also many other ventures.

joewr

October 11th, 2001, 11:59 PM

Well, I do not intend to give a course in Business 101, but I will make one last post here on this topic(I promise).

Let's list the incidentals:

Insurance...do you think a resort will let you use their pool without insurance? And do you think liability insurance is cheap?

The Resort...do you think they will let you use their pool for free? How about a free room for classes? How many resorts have you been to where there is anything that is free? Believe me they have MBA's somewhere who will figure out your costs and not let you make a rate of return that is obscene! In fact, they might even go into competition with you. In fact, they already are: Chris Sawyer on St. Thomas has such an arrangement with a resort; the only thing lacking is air arrangements. And there are others...check the dive mags.

10 divers x 10 to 12 times a year = 100 - 120 divers...Ask your local dive shop how many divers a year they teach?

Cost of teachers...Aren't you going to pay them anything?

Competition...I can get a class of one or two people for the same price. Why should I go to you for my class of 10?

Advertising...You would be amazed at what it costs to run an ad in a national magazine.

What is offered here is basically what a travel agent does...now, there is an industry that is not famous for producing lots of millionaires!

Finally....no, I've written enough...

Joewr

captdave

October 12th, 2001, 12:26 AM

Hi Joewr

As a scuba instructor your yearly insurance covers you where ever you teach. This is high quality insurance that is covered by LLoyds. You can add additionally insured pools, resorts, boats, etc at no cost to you. That answers that.
The reasoning for 10 people is not only for the money but your are creating dive buddies.These people will want to continuing with their new dive friends and they will all want to dive with you.

The resorts and dive boats I work with provide these services for free if you ask them. I always tip the instructors and helpers nicely and they remember because they aren't making squatt from the resorts etc.

There are virtually no advertising cost if you know the rest of the story. How to market to the right kind of people. I am talking direct marketing. Spending money on expensive adds is a waiste of money. I have done it and it does not work. Frankly I would rather take a trip to Las vegas as I get more for my buck.

Most dive shops have to push the numbers of students to break even because they are in a local bidding war all the time. Here is a good question you should ask? How many students drop out of scuba after their initial training?
This figure is very high and an embarresment to not only the shops but the cert. agencies as well.
This is because they have to do the cafeteria style of training and people do not have the great fun and adventure they thought this would be.
We give them a week of top quality superior training in one of the worlds greatest resorts or livaboards and let me tell you most of all of my students are still diving and loving it.

socaldiver

October 12th, 2001, 03:09 AM

Capt Dave,

I have always had problems with people wanting to "share" get rich ideas with other people, what's in this for you?

Secondly, I believe the vast majority of people that are either looking to get into scuba or buying gear are going to do research prior to this major expenditure and realize that your "paradise" training is far more expensive than what they can do on their own.

And finally, do you work for Divers Emporium? If so, are you not showing a little conflict when they "Guarantee" the lowest prices on their products?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Duca

October 12th, 2001, 03:44 AM

Well, I have no expectation of going into the SCUBA business. The only instructing I plan on doing probably going to be in the public safety sector or for friends/family... so maybe I'm not your target audience, but I still say your plans sound far-fetched.

No, this is not a negative attitude. I made a pile of money in the direct marketing industry years ago, so save your "dream stealer" speech. ;)

Joewr pointed out some of the real world hurdles that would have to be jumped.

I think it's great if your plan has worked for you. What would you think about bringing along one of us as DMs or AIs at some point to see for ourselves how you do it?

Meanwhile, one thing that really bothers me about your posts is the following statement:

"...spend your career-teaching budget minded students that want to dive "Cheap" I throw them out of my shop."

I don't think that attitude speaks very well for the industry... particularly if you are to be considered one of the "successful" ones or someone whose example should be followed.

Don't get me wrong, if you sincerely want to help people, that's great. Meanwhile, bragging about how you've got everything figured out and degrading potential students who aren't in the top tax bracket carries a shadow with it that, frankly, makes me doubt just about everything you've claimed.

BTW, I checked out your site and followed your training link. I didn't see any $3000.00 luxury yatch 10 student minimum certification programs, but I did find these (can you explain how to make $100k a year with them?):
('course, I might have missed the "big money" courses, if anyone else wants to look, here's Capt Dave's complete price list: http://www.seaofcortez.com/courses.html )

$ 225.00
Quick & Easy
Canyon Lake, Arizona

269.00 Certification
Weekend getaway!
San Carlos, Mexico

$100.00 Tuition Fee Includes:

Five Classroom Sessions in our comfortable fully equipped classroom
Four Pool Sessions in two days in an Olympic sized heated pool, convenient, comfortable and safe.
Use of All Scuba Equipment for pool training. Cylinders, Regulator Systems, Buoyancy Compensator, Wetsuit and hoods. All maintained by Factory Trained Equipment Specialists.
Clean Fresh Breathing Air that meets OSHA Standards and is tested regularly for your safety and comfort. (Certificate available upon request).
Internationally Recognized Scuba Certification by the largest, most prestigious Certification Agency in the world.
Largest Most Qualified and experienced Staff of Scuba Instructors In the State.

ScubaBaby

October 12th, 2001, 07:11 AM

but I still have a point of view even tho this is "devoted to those who want to make a good living teaching scuba".

1....I dont think there are many that will pay stupid money to learn with 9 other students. I paid �300 for my Open Water...it was 4 1/2 days one on one! I couldn't have asked for more...other than some more fish - the med tends to be a tad bare!

2....$3000 for a trip....I could get 2 weeks all inclusive in the maldives for that and some! Not a chance in hell.

Captdave, you refered to people like me as "budget minded diver" just cause I am not willing to spend silly amounts.

I am sure most divers with sense would look round to see price comparables to courses and see that the prices quoted are very steep and would choose a cheaper alternative that gives the same quality of teaching...and maybe even better.

I know I am not an instructor, however I think this thread is best open to non-instructors as well, as we would be the ones paying for the courses you talking about.

Another point, the big organisations are trying to appeal to the young generations to get them into diving young, if this pays off, we will have more teenagers looking to do there O/W after doing PADI Seal and Bubblemaker etc...and I have strong doubts that they'll be able to afford these prices you seem to feel are suitable.

Just my thoughts.
NB. The prices your quoting on the board and the prices you charge on your webpage seem a tad different, if this is the way to earn the money...how come you dont do it?

svs3

October 12th, 2001, 11:10 AM

I guess to start making big bucks in the scuba industry, I'll just have to take some time off from my part-time job making millions a years buying and selling real estate with no money down.

BTW, CaptDave, I'm keeping my eye out for the infomercial. ;)

Gimme a break,
Sam

P.S. I don't know about you but I not sure I'd want to cave dive with "Mexican Guides trained by Captain Dave in Merida" (photo on bottom left of page) http://www.seaofcortez.com/cenote.html

WetDane

October 12th, 2001, 12:08 PM

Ok - so I was about to say good riddance - ever since the gas mask thing I have had an aversion to Capt. Dave and that happens...

However - from a purely marketing point of view - the idea of getting %incetitives on sales seem like a good idea...

All is not well in the scuba industry, if you read the material closely you will see a couple of good ideas and we had some discussions on this a while back as far as how to improve "staying" in the sport and therefore laying more money for equipment.

I am about to start running dives the weekends following OW certification, when I was cerfied nobody bothered to - alas - it took a long time before I got back in the water.
The dives would get people out and diving and excited about AOW a month later...

I will keep you posted on the turnout.

Big T

syruss32

October 12th, 2001, 12:09 PM

Why is it because you realize there are like 1600 or so divers watching you put both feet in your mouth.

I imagine business from us will come to a standstill cause we are so stupid.

Can you send pictures of the "foot in mouth" experience you are having?

ScubaBaby

October 12th, 2001, 12:33 PM

CaptDave, please dont.

I am sorry if you feel we have all ganged up on you in this thread, its just everyone feels so relaxed with one-another that we feel we can express our feelings with the other person understanding....we tend to forget that with all our imput it can end up looking very hurtful from you point of view.

We aren't all out to gang up on you, merely to share our own points of view. And unfortunately, I guess you opened up a can of worms that was best left closed.

I do not think this thread should be deleted, simply down to the fact it is educational for both diving and for how we treat other members.

I am sorry you feel ScubaBoard has done you an injustice...I hope you will reconsider and give us another try.

Again, my apologies.

captdave

October 12th, 2001, 12:35 PM

This thread was intended for information on how to make real money as a scuba instructor.. I welcomed all questions and any information that was in that area.
It seems that a few of the regulars felt it necessary to only find fault with many of the views expressed rather than to ask questions or to add positive information..Because of this I have asked that this thread be deleated..
I can no longer find the energy to try and give information that I have proved that worked for me . I hope any of you out there at the scuba board who wanted to learn will not be put off by all of this. If you want e-mail me and I will continue with my dialogue privately with you.
Sincerely,

Zagnut

October 12th, 2001, 01:08 PM

" I can't take constuctive criticism and can't engage in healthy debate.. You all are stupid and I'm outta here!"
- a paraphrased post from Captdave that I guess he later deleted from this thread after calling all of us crybabies.

I read your post and I will say that if you can make that kind of money, I think that's great! Capitalism at it's finest. I would be willing to bet there are wealthy people out there who would like to learn in paradise, and I think that is great. I got my cert from a LDS who told me to buy his gear because all other gear is crap. I don't think I'm cheap because I don't want to pay $800 for a $400 BC...I think I'm smart. If you have the money, and don't have the time or wan't to expend the energy to do the research to get the best deal, more power to you. I don't call you stupid .. and I don't think you should call me cheap. The impression I got from my OW instructor/LDS owner was that if I don't spend my money on just what he tells me to buy at the price he says, then he doesn't want anything to do with me. Guess what? Not only did I not buy my $3,600 worth of gear from him, but I will get my continuing instruction from somewhere else. In fact I don't even get my air fills from him anymore. I mean, if what he's doing works for him, or what you are doing works for you, great!..more power to you. I'm not afraid to spend money, I just don't like feeling like I've been taken. And if I'm trying to focus on new instruction, I don't need the thought that my instructor is trying to swindle me, in the back of my mind. I want to have complete trust in my instructor. So, again I say, I have nothing against your approach. It's just not for me. I don't think I'm cheap. Like I said, a month after my OW cert, I went out and purchased $3,600 worth of very high quality gear. I just didn't pay more than I had to. In my opinion, that's smart...not cheap.

WetDane

October 12th, 2001, 01:12 PM

I will second ScubaBaby's motion to keep the thread - I may not agree with everything said and that goes for both CaptDave AND some of the other members of the board.

I think that any discussion - no matter how much I disagree or think things might be a bit far fetched - I have to say that although the particular economic model may not appeal to me - there are a number of ideas that I find highly interesting and I may have to try it out just to see what happens.
I know people don't see the take home as $1000 a student - but looking at the math - it coudl be significantly more than what an instructor currently brings home.

I think that it is important to approach these things - not as a true/false statement, but rather as an idea for something bigger and better - I for one don't think I would do well selling like that - but I can see a number of things that could easily be implemented in a cold water environment.

Anyway, don't shut down the dialoque - and don't shut down your fellow members because you don't agree - this is like a TV, you can move on if you want.

Go diving,
Big T

uwsince79

October 12th, 2001, 01:13 PM

all I have to say is, great comment......

ScubaBaby

October 12th, 2001, 01:21 PM

I respect you very much for trying to share your thoughts and ideas.

Thank you for your email, but if you look make i am also one who doubts what you have to say. I may support you when your feeling bullied by others but I still do not see where your coming from considering what you say on the board and what you advertise in your dive shop are opposites.

The reason I wish for this to remain, is no matter how many people disagree, to disagree they must learn to opposite first...and thats what this gives people the opportunity to do - hope that makes sense!

CaptDave, all I can say is I hope in your eyes, this thread doesnt reflect the rest of the board and its members. I am sure if you stick around, you'll almost find us bearable.

Hope to see you around the board.

Zagnut

October 12th, 2001, 01:23 PM

..that Captdave, you had some good and innovative ideas. Learning in paradise, the videotaping, these are good ideas. In fact, you should even have a guy on the boat with editing equipment, to quickly edit the footage while everybody eats or on the trip back to shore, and maybe add some background music or something, then offer a copy to your students for a small price. There's nothing wrong with offering good information or innovative ideas. It just that your original post was pretty condescending to those of us who aren't rich or maybe who are, but still like to get the most for their money. You made it sound like everybody who doesn't teach like you is stupid, and everybody who doesn't take your class is cheap..And I just think that that's not the case. That's why you got the responses you did.

joewr

October 12th, 2001, 01:34 PM

A post was deleted on this thread because the management decided to delete it rather than delete the whole thread or close the thread. Thus, there will be some disconnects.

However, in the spirit of free interchange of ideas, it was thought that this was the best way to go. We do not delete threads or posts without considerable thought. The reasons usually have to do with inappropriate language, etc. They are NEVER because a regulator disagrees with a poster, NEVER!

Joewr

captdave

October 12th, 2001, 01:39 PM

Thanks for the nice responses. I can see there are reasonable ones out there that want to look at a subject and offer concrete critizism..To answer your critic about the differences in shop prices and the posts is their is a totaly different operation in effect for the high end..I still have to compete on the low end. The high end is not advertised and never will be . It is marketed by direct marketing which I have not had a chance to tell you about as yet.
It has never been my intention to offend anybody. It was my attention to wake people up to the facts about what is and what is not...
I want people to offer any ideas they have on how to create a good paying job for our scuba instructors..As was stated earlier they don't get paid squat.

My model works I have done it.. Sure there are people who can get anything cheaper so why go with my group. This is handled quite effectively in the marketing area....

The math can be adjusted in either direction to fit into a particular area etc but it truly does work.

I again do not want anything for this information it is offered free...

Should I continue?

WetDane

October 12th, 2001, 01:46 PM

I for one is very interested in your marketing ideas - although I have never seen direct marketing as the answer to things I have been involved with, I am an optimistic student of marketing (for many years) in general and always have an interest for ideas in a field that interests me.

Big T

Zagnut

October 12th, 2001, 01:51 PM

I think you should. Whether you intended to or not, you opened up a good debate and created a pretty good thread. Add to it. Also, don't get too bent out of shape over us. We disagree often, but we generally believe that it's in the interest of the thread and not a personal attack. I think you should stick around. After reading your bio, I think you could add alot to the board.

syruss32

October 12th, 2001, 02:20 PM

CaptDave,

I only object to your theory that if we disagree with you we are communists, or stupid, or stupid communists. The methods you mention may or may not work, I for one am always somewhat unbelieving when someone says some of what you said. MLM's are all like that. And if you are at the top you make the bucks if you are at the bottom you pay the bucks.

So my vote is if you want people to listen to your ideas, or you just want to express them, don't go spouting off. You have a history of that and it pisses others off and makes you look a fool instead of a person with an idea trying to share it.

Those are my 2 cents worth again.

SpyderTek

October 12th, 2001, 02:34 PM

Ummm Syruss, These weren't coins...these were plugs!

hehehehe :goofy:

ST

captdave

October 12th, 2001, 04:58 PM

OK guys I get the point.
First of all I know none of you out there are communists we did away with them. I want you to understand that it is OK to make good money and a lot of money teaching scuba. For too long scuba instructors have had to provide this wonderful service without proper pay. I want to see this change for as many as possible. If this causes prices to go up them maybe they should go up. I have stated earlier that it is in the interest of the Cert. agencies to keep prices low as they benefit by the numbers. I suspect they have even created an intense competition in order to keep their numbers high. I have to compete in this arena but I also have found another way outside the stream to make some good money. That Said.

The next phase of this plan is not MLM as someone suggested.
This is where the real work comes in. This is not an easy plan to promote and you will likely receive a lot of rejection before you strike the goldmine. The key is persistence persistence persistance.

Your target market.
Teach only to people who have access to money. This gives you enough money to provide the logistics necessary to put on a superior scuba seminar.

Your find your clients in-groups. The right client is a special type of individual. They are not leaders, they are not physically gifted and they are not independent thinkers.
They are not rugged adventurers, nor are they millionaires or celebrities.

They are joiners; they join groups, associations, clubs, and work for corporations.

Any group, churches, self-help groups, seminar companies, educational organizations, etc.
This is key to your success as the group phenonomin.

This means you can register your clients in bunches plus the group will recruit for you as the group endorses your seminar.

The age of the target market is 25-55 with an income from 31-79,000.00 per year.

The best way to approach the group is through the leader and get them hooked on scuba in doing so you will get the endorsement to register the flock.

Kiwanas clubs, bankers, mortgage brokers, chambers of commerce�s, rotary, lions, single clubs, even any of the self-help anonymous groups like AA can be an asset to your plans.

How would you like to get in at Microsoft, IBM, apple, Intel Hughes, Cisco, How about the thousands of other corporations that exist in our society.

You can go directly to the headman and offer to put on a free scuba demonstration to their employees and give the boss free lessons to see what your superior program consists of. This will justify the added cost of your program over the local competitors as well as give your program endorsement and the dominos will fall as the followers and joiners will want to please the big guy.

Avoid Doctors and Lawyers, as they are too independent and do not have enough free time for this program. And for a lot of other reasons will not work out. Now do not get offended you doctors and lawyers you just do not fit the profile for this plan to succeed.

The best people and the ones who go over and over again are the computer nerds, tech heads, engineers, etc.

They get hooked on imagined adventure and they love equipment especially computers, cameras, and regulators.
They find it an easier way to impress a girl than with their calculators, ram, dos, gigs, etc. and they have something to talk about with others that are interested in and willing to listen to them. Now I am not being sexist here it is just that 75% of the divers are men. I will talk about the ladies later. They love this, as it is a great place to meet men. Don't get mad at me these are the facts I am only the Messenger.

This is where the hard work comes in. This is not a get rich plan as you can see. You have to contact people, go talk and put on programs get the big guy hooked and this costs time and a little money. The big thing is it takes your time but if teaching scuba and wanting to make the big bucks this is the way to go.

People will not pay big bucks for a scuba class but will pay for a packaged, fun, adventure, travel, romance, (Safe) excitement, and ego enhancement. And as a famous salesman once wrote: Sell the sizzle, Not the steak

The right types of people buy benefits not features.

Keep in mind all of the "Right people" get from 1-4 weeks of vacation per year and they plan it 10-12 months in advance. So that is how far in advance you book your scuba seminars 12-14 months. That sure is not getting rich quick.

The Concept of Perceived value is why your program succeeds:

You are not selling scuba lessons: You are selling a unique package of superior training, adventure, etc. Now you have no competition, as you will be the only one in your area that offers this type of Scuba seminar package...

You are selling: The finest scuba course in the world, escape to the tropics with like minded people, cruise on a custom built luxury livaboard with state of the art scuba support systems and creature comforts. or the best resort in the area. You are selling fun, excitement, adventure, romance, and appealing to the ego.

The fact is people will pay much more for something if they perceive it to be more valuable. People will pay more to go with a group of friends and known instructors than with strangers. They will pay more to go with you, as their instructor will than they will pay to go on their own.

You have to wear a lot of hats in this program. As someone stated earlier, you have to be a travel agent good scuba instructor, a people person, a salesman, etc. etc.

This is not easy but it only takes a few groups to get you rolling.

When I first started. I used to book these exotic trips and was happy to get to go for free. That seems all well and good except that your rent, utilities bills etc. are coming in while you are on vacation...You have to be making an income for taking people away to these great places or you will loose you butt. I gave it away for free twice before the light went off. I have to compete locally with those same types of thinkers who give the dive trip away so they can go for free.

By packaging it as stated above this is not the run of the mill scuba class and dive travel trip. It is unique and the best there is to offer.

You have to get on the telephone call and talk to group leaders and make appointments. Advertising does not work as this is a special unique program you are offering to their organization....Of course business cards are a great help a brochure of the livaboard and pictures help a lot including slides of previous adventures. That is all you need to put this over. If you contact the finest resorts and livaboards they all will be glad to send you a video of their operation.

Shall I go on?

Butch103

October 12th, 2001, 05:08 PM

I missed a couple of the postings. Damm can't miss a minute. hehehe

CaptDave I am not sure if your program works because I HAVE NOT TRIED IT and from what I can tell NO ONE ELSE on the board has either. So I am not sure why there are so bent out of shape.

Well I agree the inuendos of us being "stupid" and "cheap" were uncalled for we should listen with open minds.

I am unsure of everyones chosen careers and or jobs but I will give you a couple of thoughts.

I am in the investment business, and I deal with many varied clients. Some are multimillionaires and some are average blue collar workers trying to save a little or a lot extra for their retirement.

I can tell you this ........many of these people would pay 2-3 X the amount for a service or product than the average person or even some of the more well off clients.

I can see CaptDaves idea working for some. Folks this is not as far fetched as what you might think. These people will pay for the "pamered" service which they envision they will get. They will not only get certified, but certified in a exotic local. Now, we all know you can get this anyway, but if it is presented that this is "special" they will jump at it.

No, many of you are right in your comments, who in their right mind would do this ? and why? at such "inflated" prices.

Some and I mean some wealthy people would pay 2-3 X for any thing just because they can. I know I deal with these types almost everyday.

CaptDave........... As I told Syruss.........I don't like anyone to leave the board as we all have valuable input to make......Although I don't like to be insulted. I believe you have apologized for this an I accept on my own behalf your apology and await your next chapter in "making Money Teaching Scuba".

Butch :Peace:

NJDiver_34

October 12th, 2001, 05:16 PM

I have to give it to you CaptDave, you have sure thought this thing out. Wheather it can work for everyone or not is a different story. I suspect one must have a great deal of charisma to have your program work for them. You now what they say, "If you cant dazzel them with knowledge, baffel them with bull*****!
NJDiver_34

SpyderTek

October 12th, 2001, 05:17 PM

This is all 100% accurate information and works in principle for just about any sort of business. However, the information is nothing new.

CaptDave is totally right. These things WORK. But only if you have the right personality and look to sell them. It isnt something that anyone can go out and do. If you are able to do this with diving then you would also be able to do it with any travel package, Auto Sales, Infomercial, Amway, Etc. I often wish I had this sort of personality. instead I tend to get people annoyed. :)

Guess I'm just going to have to be happy with the idea that I will be a tropical drifter type scuba instructor that lives from paycheck to paycheck.

SpyderTek

Butch103

October 12th, 2001, 05:21 PM

you are both right on the money.............ya gotta have the kajonies to do this ............

Butch :Peace:

WetDane

October 12th, 2001, 05:28 PM

Hehe...
Whaddaya mean I can't impress a girl with my 10 terrabyte hard drive??? BS I say.

Big T

Zagnut

October 12th, 2001, 06:18 PM

Captdave,

Now that's an approach that you didn't include in your earlier posts. You should have started with that info, then we might not have had all the ruckus. Oh well, ruckus makes for good reading.
Anyhows, the corporate angle is one I hadn't thought of. Many corporations purchase timeshares in exotic places for their employees to use while on their vacations and things of that nature. It is a "perk" to entice better quality employees. I guess your approach could be used by a corporation as a similar tactic. Often when corporations do this type of thing, they don't mind spending more money than necessary because it ultimately ends up as a tax write off anyways seein' as how it is seen as investing the money back into the company. I don't even think you would need alot of "kajonies". You would just need some decent salesmanship skills and know who to target. The IT industry seems like it would be a good start. Target the yuppie types. At least once that industry pulls out of it's recession. They may not be as likely to go for it now, than they would have been when the IT stocks were riding high. They might if it were a tax shelter and all although, I doubt that their industry is having trouble hiring good employees right now.

captdave

October 12th, 2001, 07:16 PM

You guys sure can get a laugh out of me sometimes.Good humor always helps. Wow what a hard drive?
To zagnut. I think your tax angle idea is really good. I hadn't thought of that. Lets add it to the plan. There is nothing wrong with being a scuba instructor bum and traveling from exotic place to exotic place and living from paycheck to paycheck..If that's what you want. I think what I am talking about is making scuba instruction into a real job..

Any more good ideas out there ?

Video Diver

October 12th, 2001, 07:30 PM

After reading some of his posts I feel like the old days when I came home after a hard night of drinking, plopped down in the couch with the TV on, and fix-stared at the thing without the energy to change the channel nor even really knowing what I was looking at. Coming out of the daze an hour or more later realizing that it was an INFOMERCIAL I had been staring at, all the while being hammered with the hypnotic, psuedo-charasmatic host who promised riches untold. A draining feeling to be sure! Would it work, who knows? Does the attempt leave most of those trying with that emtpy, helpless, frustrated feeling of just being had? I suspect so.

Bill
Bill@pwrvideo.com
http://www.pwrvideo.com

bash

October 13th, 2001, 02:56 AM

While I acknowledge the principal of 'caveat emptor' (buyer beware) I feel betrayed by my local dive shop, which has taken a similar money-harvesting approach to me-the-customer.

As a new diver I was trying to find out about the world of diving (the gear I need, my options for purchasing comfortable equipment, the range of diving opportunities available, the social 'norms' for divers). The owner of my LDS fed me unbalanced information in the interests of snaffling my dollar.

It was like brainwashing a baby.

(It is interesting to note that this thread originally started out as a discussion on ethics.)

In a business where people-skills are so important (see the thread on 'what makes a good instructor') the long-term success of a diving business is a matter of loyalty. If you fire a staff member for providing honest advice to a paying customer, then you aren't being loyal to your customer. It doesn't take long for the customer to learn the value - or lack of value- of being loyal to such a shop (I speak from experience).

If you want to be ethical in the diving-business, think about how loyalty to the customer and return-business are linked.

Still, I have to acknowledge that my diveshop owner has a right to make a buck, the law is riddled with 'caveat emptor' (so I've been warned)..... and I have the right to take my buck to another dive shop.

-bash

neil

October 13th, 2001, 04:30 AM

Deja vu all over again!
A few years ago, I answered an ad in the NAUI magazine "Sources". There was only a phone number and a line that said: "make a bazillion bucks teaching diving". So I call the number (Hawaii) and talk to a guy, named Dave I believe, who wanted to share his secrets with me. I've been a saleman, this guy was GOOD. He sends me a floppy with some more sales pitch on it and an offer to sell me the password for the rest, so I can have the complete plan laid out in detail. Only $500! He actually followed up with a number of calls to me before giving up. Capt. Dave, where's the punchline? I sincerely doubt that Dave is the Linus Torvalds of the scuba world.

Neil

captdave

October 13th, 2001, 06:13 PM

:rolleyes:

To the basher and Neil. I guess you really do not know what loyalty is. You really do not know what you have missed by spending your money elsewhere. You are one of those type of customers I don't want in my shop. Get Out!!!

What you don't realize is that by supporting your LDS loyally then you begin to get more benefits than walking into the next shop for a better price. I love you guys cause I can undercut my competetor and I don't have to spend any time training you and taking care of what we call in the business (BABY DIVERS)

Had you had the loyalty factor your LDS you started with would have realized this fact and you would have received a lot of extra attention, more training than the minimum, special sale prices just for you and many other perks, A loyal customer is a friend we care about. .Now you don't get crap.

Think about how we make money in this business: Not in giving you training,we loose money most of the time..If we can make it up in the equipment sale then we can go on. With customers like you we go broke---So again I say to you Get out of my shop.. Eventually you will loose at everyshop as they soon learn you aren't worth the bother.
It because of customers like you I have had to put up a website to get the sale of scuba equipment at discount prices..I don't have to talk to you, I don't have to train you, and this way I can take the business away from my competetors. I now can spend the extra time really training my loyal customers.

Again I repeat if any of my staff send any customer to another shop then they are unethical and they wil be fired on the Spot!

I don't want to piss you off but I am pissed of by this stupid attitude..

joewr

October 13th, 2001, 08:17 PM

CaptDave,

And I have the solution:

1. Close your shop so you do not have to deal with disloyal customers anymore.

2. Visit some hi-tech nerdy companies and put together about, say, 10 one-week-long dive trips for 10-12 of their employees for $3000 per person.

3. Make all the travel reservations and hotel reservations for them, but be sure to book them into coach class on some third world flag carrier; of course, you will meet them there after a first class flight to the destination.

4. Put them up 3 or 4 to a room in a decent resort; of course, you will have a suite.

5. Convince the resort to let you use its pool and conference room for free since you will fill up 40 of their rooms a year.

6. Sit back and watch the money roll in as these nerds crawl over each other to get in on your course...and give you lots of word of mouth advertising.

7. And you will not ever have to deal with that bane of capitalism: the customer. (Of course, you will have to dream up a new word for the nerdy guys. I have a suggestion:sucker )

Joewr...bowing to the wisdom of a new age Andrew Carnagie

Lost Yooper

October 13th, 2001, 08:49 PM

Looks like ya finally hit it, Joe! :thumb: :jester:

captdave

October 13th, 2001, 09:50 PM

You guys just love to crack me up. HA HA HA HA

My facts are true although delivered rather courseley to get a reaction. Here is the bottom line.

All scuba shops rate there customers. And of course the customer is always greeted with warm open arms and asked to come dive with us. "You will hear the term" We would love to have you come dive with us" While in the mind they are saying that so and so took his open water lessons from us and bought all of his gear from the shop down the street and the internet.

That is how I treat my customers with niceness and bull****. But the fact that still remains the same that customer will never get any type of consideration and extra help in their development. We will take their money but we will not consider them a good customer.

On the otherhand a customer who bought all his gear and takes all his training will get the extra mile in service and concern.. Better training, better position on the dive boat. the best of the hotel rooms. friendship, concern,etc. When we have a close out they get called and e mailed way before the rest of the slobs do....They have paid us for it. Guys like you just don't get it and never will.

This goes back a couple of generations that you tech heads don't remember.. Your parents and their parents used to shop at the same butcher shop and the same gas staion even when they could get the meat and gas cheaper at the bigger stores. Why do you think they did it. Simple they got something more from the shop that guys like you don't want to understand because you have grown up in the walmart generation....You are price motivated and thats ok.
The people in my business plan are also price motivated but they will pay more for the services because they perceive more.

All of the Tech companies are on their ass because they have confused customer loyalty vs customer service vs price. It cost money to provide customer service..Cheap ain't gonna get it...

It really is guys like you that have hurt the scuba industry but it has cost you and you will never know it because that LDS you screwed over with still great you with smiles.

In this forum I can tell you like it is cause you aren't my customer and I never expect you to be. Maybe I will get the idea to some others out there that there is usually a reason for a higher price other than trying to rip you off....

neil

October 13th, 2001, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by captdave
:rolleyes:

To the basher and Neil. I guess you really do not know what loyalty is. You really do not know what you have missed by spending your money elsewhere. You are one of those type of customers I don't want in my shop. Get Out!!!

What you don't realize is that by supporting your LDS loyally then you begin to get more benefits than walking into the next shop for a better price. I love you guys cause I can undercut my competetor and I don't have to spend any time training you and taking care of what we call in the business (BABY DIVERS)

Had you had the loyalty factor your LDS you started with would have realized this fact and you would have received a lot of extra attention, more training than the minimum, special sale prices just for you and many other perks, A loyal customer is a friend we care about. .Now you don't get crap.

Think about how we make money in this business: Not in giving you training,we loose money most of the time..If we can make it up in the equipment sale then we can go on. With customers like you we go broke---So again I say to you Get out of my shop.. Eventually you will loose at everyshop as they soon learn you aren't worth the bother.
It because of customers like you I have had to put up a website to get the sale of scuba equipment at discount prices..I don't have to talk to you, I don't have to train you, and this way I can take the business away from my competetors. I now can spend the extra time really training my loyal customers.

Again I repeat if any of my staff send any customer to another shop then they are unethical and they wil be fired on the Spot!

I don't want to piss you off but I am pissed of by this stupid attitude..

Capt. Dave,
I read this post a few times, and at the risk of seeming dense, I have not the slightest idea of what you are talking about! Are you saying that I should be loyal to a dive shop no matter what their prices because they trained me? You don't want me in your store, but you'll fire your help if they send me elsewhere? What did I say to make you believe I am ANY kind of customer? You're rambling, dude.
On the "to-be-fair" side, your marketing ideas are sound, but not new as already pointed out. The amount of energy and personality needed to be successful at what you purport to do is beyond what most folks have, or can muster. You my friend, are a HARD salesman, and that doesn't work as well as it used to, what with tons of info on the internet.
As far as direct marketing goes, my understanding is that a 1-2% reply rate is good. You have to cover a lot of ground with direct marketing to get any meaningful results, and that's expensive.
As I've said, I've seen this stuff before. Yeah, there's no doubt someong really doing it, maybe you. Why don't you post a copy of last years' W2 for us? Love to see it. Well, now I'M rambling!
Neil

captdave

October 13th, 2001, 10:15 PM

:(

For some reason the forum posted my reply before the response so i am re-positing to keep the thread intact.
You guys just love to crack me up. HA HA HA HA

My facts are true although delivered rather courseley to get a reaction. Here is the bottom line.

All scuba shops rate there customers. And of course the customer is always greeted with warm open arms and asked to come dive with us. "You will hear the term" We would love to have you come dive with us" While in the mind they are saying that so and so took his open water lessons from us and bought all of his gear from the shop down the street and the internet. I have indeed thrown people out of my shop.. I have a reputation...

That is how I treat my customers with niceness and bull****,most of the time. But the fact that still remains is the same. that customer will never get any type of consideration and extra help in their development. We will take their money but we will not consider them a good customer.

On the otherhand a customer who bought all his gear and takes all his training will get the extra mile in service and concern.. Better training, better position on the dive boat. the best of the hotel rooms. friendship, concern,etc. When we have a close out they get called and e mailed way before the rest of the slobs do....They have paid us for it. Guys like you just don't get it and never will.

This goes back a couple of generations that you tech heads don't remember.. Your parents and their parents used to shop at the same butcher shop and the same gas staion even when they could get the meat and gas cheaper at the bigger stores. Why do you think they did it. Simple they got something more from the shop that guys like you don't want to understand because you have grown up in the walmart generation....You are price motivated and thats ok.
The people in my business plan are also price motivated but they will pay more for the services because they perceive more.

All of the Tech companies are on their ass because they have confused customer loyalty vs customer service vs price. It cost money to provide customer service..Cheap ain't gonna get it...

It really is guys like you that have hurt the scuba industry but it has cost you and you will never know it because that LDS you screwed over with still great you with smiles.

In this forum I can tell you like it is cause you aren't my customer and I never expect you to be. Maybe I will get the idea to some others out there that there is usually a reason for a higher price other than trying to rip you off....

In regards to taxes and my income forget it. That it and will always remain a private matter between me and the IRS>

bash

October 13th, 2001, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by joewr
.... (Of course, you will have to dream up a new word for the nerdy guys. I have a suggestion: sucker)

Yep. That's just about how I feel in my relationship with my LDS: like a sucker.

I'd spent about AUD$12K at my LDS on gear and beginner courses, and had signed up for a must have series of courses (I was loyal to my LDS), before I'd gained enough experience in the diver-world to realise I'd been lead along by the nose.

(You may notice that my profile says I'm advanced trained with less than 50 dives: in fact, I'm nearly a master scuba diver... with less than 50 dives - I have been a sucker)

Originally posted by captdave
.....Your target market.
Teach only to people who have access to money. .....
The right client is a special type of individual. They are not leaders, they are not physically gifted and they are not independent thinkers.
They are not rugged adventurers, nor are they millionaires or celebrities....

Yep: that's what I think my LDS thinks of me. So much for loyalty to the customer, eh Captain?

Still, as I said before: a dive operator has the right to make a buck and I have the right to take my business elsewhere.... that's capitalism for you.

I'm not one to 'bite my nose off to spite my face': if my LDS can offer something worthwhile to me, I'll take up the offer, but not until I've checked it against other options.....I'd be a real sucker if I didn't learn from my past experience with my 'commerce-comes-first' dive shop operator.

:)Captain: I can see that what you are proposing is clever and I genuinely think, 'good on you' for putting in the energy to set up the market, and for taking the risk. You have a right to reap the benefits of your work.

Are you aware that the language you use to describe your target market implies that you don't really respect them? It hit a nerve with me 'cos I felt 'used' by my shop and I felt they didn't respect my intelligence. As a result, they don't get my loyal return business without being compared with other market options first.

If I was considering an investment in your company, I would want more information about how you intend to keep customer loyalty. Return business is an area of your strategy that appears unconvincing.

-bash

captdave

October 13th, 2001, 10:26 PM

:confused:
I really can't figure out why you don't get the reason for firing an employee who sends a customer to a competetor.

DO you really think that if a guy worked in a FORD dealership and he sends a customer to a Chevy Dealership he would keep his job for very long..

DO you think there is something different about the business of scuba that this type of behavior would be acceptable.....

Again I state it is totally unethical for an employee to send a customer to a competetor and that employee should be terminated immediately...

Unless of course you really believe in the miracle on 34th street.....Ain't

captdave

October 13th, 2001, 10:38 PM

Hey Bash,

You could not be more than wrong. I love my customers and I have the upmost respect for them.

The description in the plan is from a marketing point of view and not from a personal point of view..

I am confused about what your LDS did to you and why they have driven you away. I know some times this happens but maby they perceived you were not worth the trouble or perhaps they are real jerks anyway.. What was the details..

They is a great deal of more information yet to be delevered regarding the plan that may answer some of your questions but I certaintly do not want the perception that we do not respect our customers at all...

scuba_adventurer

October 14th, 2001, 01:18 AM

First of all, you have to be a pretty bad shop to have a guy working for you who feels the competitor down the road has a better product. There are instances when a customer wants to purchase something somewhere else, but it is stupid for an dive shop employee to make that decision for them.

Captain Dave,

I have read your comments with great interest, and while I am not sure how much you are BSing, you have good ideas. What you do is foster that continuity that makes a local dive shop great, in my opinion. LeisurePro can not give advice, fringe benefits, or act like they give a damn if someone is having a problem with a skill. Many people who don't have a dive shop search online, and naturally form message boards to express their questions (I realize that these people are not the only ones who use this board), so they will have trouble seeing the logic of your ideas. Your package is not the trip for the LeisurePro shopper. Your package is however ideal for many of todays "I am too busy to have fun" kind of people. They just want to take a vacation and be done with it. No work in advance, or no follow up. It is the success of Adventure Travel summed up.

I think you have some great ideas, but I don't understand how you find time to run a dive shop and go our and proactively drum up al of this business. What you suggest is time consuming, as is running a dive shop. Which operation takes a back seat to the other?

Belushi

October 14th, 2001, 03:06 AM

Capt Dave, most of your ideas have sound financial sense, but your idea that to sack your staff because he send a customer to another dive shop is ludicrous!

If I come into your dive shop and want a Poseidon Cyklon 5000 because I am going to dive Scapa Flow in Scotland in three days, and you do not stock it, and you cannot get it for me in two days, what am I supposed to do? Not go to Scapa Flow? I want this regulator because it is a top quality regulator.

You do not stock one, you cannot get one for me, but Dodgy Joe's dive centre down the road sells them and your salesman knows this. He tells me that Joe's does sell them and then I go there. You then sack your salesman. The reason I went to your dive shop in the first place is because I trusted the word of the professionals in it, which generally means I will be back to purchase other stuff.

So, not only do you lose a good salesman, but you lose my custom. But then you do not want my custom anyway because I am a cheap and nasty customer who will not go on your $3000 a week trips. It sounds vaguely lose-lose to me.

:boom:

captdave

October 14th, 2001, 12:32 PM

Belusi,

First of all I think the Poseidon is one of the best regulators made. I do not carry it any more nor recommend it to any of my regular customers because parts are very difficult to come by and it requires a very special technician to work on it. This is not a good Idea to purchase here in the U.S. I would have expected one of my Salesmen to deliver you this message and suggest a top of the line regulator that has parts available and the service technicians in our shop can handle any problem you might have.

I Think your trip to Scotland sounds nice and if you still want to Dive a Poseidon I suggest you purchase it overseas as it is cheaper than paying duty to get it here but don�t bring it to us to service and as you will find there are very few shops that really know how to deal with the service problems�Most end up sending the entire unit into the Distributors and your unit is down for weeks and In one case I sent one in it took two months.

There are no dealers in our town that carry the Poseidon any more..

neil

October 14th, 2001, 02:06 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by captdave
[B]Belusi,
I would have expected one of my Salesmen to deliver you this message and suggest a top of the line regulator that has parts available and the service technicians in our shop can handle any problem you might have.

Capt. Dave
So what happens when the potential customer says, "thanks, but I really only want to purchase the Poseiden regulator, no matter what the drawbacks", and your employee, after giving his best pitch tells him, albeit reluctantly, where to get one? Do you still fire him?
In my humble but experienced opinion, everybody that walks OUT your door should be happy for some reason: either happy with a purchase, or with good info. You failed, what a shame. Do you want to discuss loyalty some more?
Secondly, your indignation at being asked to prove that you make the kind of money you say you do speaks volumes. To me at least.

Neil

captdave

October 14th, 2001, 03:30 PM

Belushi,

I think one thing you may be forgetting that most of my customers come to us as their scuba instructors and ask for good advise. They trust our honest advice. I have never had a situation like you describe. Should this happen I would again tell them that their decision in my opinion is not a sound one but if that is their choice I will respect it and leave them with a smile. A stranger off the street would get the same information but We would supect he is out shopping his dive shop and note it for future reference.

I again repeat that it is neither my place nor any of my sales people�s place to offer any information regarding any of our competitors. This is not good business and is not done anywhere that I know of. That is what the yellow pages are for. We are not the Telephone Company!

Again my friend my tax information is none of your business...Or should I doctor something up to make you feel good like most of the real crooks do!

I could possible understand this if I was asking someone for money but I am not asking for a thing. What I offer is free to anybody who wants to learn...

rstone

October 14th, 2001, 03:45 PM

From a business point of view I can understand a company to not want its employees to send customers to its competitors. I think more often then not you will find most companys frown on this, however they cant watch every employee 24/7. As someone who works in a dive shop I usally dont have a problem with not being able to get something since we have 9 stores and usally 1 of them have it and I can get it quickly. However if someone comes in the store looking for something we "our stores" dont carry like Sherwood.. i have no problem referring him to a shop down the street if i think he has made up his mind, however that doesnt mean i wont try to sell him one of ours first :)

CAMPER

October 14th, 2001, 09:04 PM

This is my first post to this board. I was really overjoyed to see this thread.

I am one of those old divers who am taking up the sport again after many years absence. I have recently completed cert classes with my teen age boys. My experience with instructors/classes was a great deal less then satisfactory. The quality of the instruction was great the wow factor stuff was not to be found.

I am a small business owner that was looking for a way to do some quality things with my boys. Diving has filed the bill but it has been a struggle from poor rental equipment, no upgrade available, to large classes, to hurried teachers, etc.

Capt. Dave may be over my budget but I would really have prefered an upgraded class routine which I would have been happy to pay for. I also considered certifying in a foreign location but was nervous about the quality of instruction available and not knowing for sure ahead of time who was giving it.

I hope some of you take this stuff to heart I believe the industry needs it.

Thanks,
Camper

joewr

October 14th, 2001, 10:08 PM

Welcome to the Board! Seems like you jumped into the middle of an "interesting' thread...

Well, if you want to discuss any aspect of scuba, this is the place to be! Most of our threads are a little less controversial than this one and we hope you will join us. As I am wont to say: if you have questions, we have answers; if you have answers, we have questions.

And if you would like a recommendation for a scuba class/teacher, I have a first rate one for you. And if you really want a "foriegn" locale, how about the US Virgin Islands? A very pleasant tropical paradise where you can get first class instruction for PADI certification; it will take about a week.

Try this link and ask if Frank Vince is available:

http:www.sawyerdive.vi/classes.html

Joewr

captdave

October 15th, 2001, 01:34 AM

:mean:
Enough of the kibitzing. It�s time to move ahead. Since there seems to be no real concrete additions to making money as a scuba instructor here goes!

This is going to really get me some flack and e mail but here goes.

New scuba divers are like baby ducks. They imprint on the Instructor. In the business of teaching scuba we say �Monkey see and Monkey do� This is how we teach by perfection of the skills with perfect demonstrations (under perfect conditions). The new divers imprint the skills and there FIRST scuba Instructor!
This is guy who held their hand. Got them through the skills, perhaps even the instructor who they perceived even saved their lives.

Once imprinted it is irreversible.
If you are trying to attract students to your advanced courses and your specialties and they were certified else where forget it it will not work. It�s too late! They will not have the same affinity for you as your original students. The only exception to this is someone who is already certified enters our seminar and re-certifies.
So don�t waist your time on the rest they are already ruined. You of course can let them enroll but I don�t advise it as they can pollute the minds of your students so if you do, you have to keep an eye on them. I have seen some certified divers who cannot even clear their masks or equalize their ears.

Now we do a little cheating. We arrange it so the student always wins! We do this by boosting their ego, making sure they have success early and often. We set up the training so they start having fun immediately. Because that is what we are selling fun and safe adventure. We use everything to our advantage to make this happen. Warm water, Clear water, low student to instructor ratio, the best equipment available, etc. etc.

A scuba course needs to be easy and the student must be spoiled. For those of you who think this is wrong think about this. Who are you trying to impress with the perfect skill prevention your own ego enhancement or the student? Making an entry-level scuba course tough is great for the military but not here. If you do the skills under adverse condition you only impress the student how good you are. You aren�t teaching them squat only stroking your own ego.

If you have selected the correct clients you will find most of them expect to and need to be led. You must know this, as the majority of your clients must be the joiners. Every once in a while an independent thinker gets in the group. Don�t allow this to be a distraction. Go with the flow but keep an eye on them and if they begin to be a disruption quietly ask them to leave and give them their money back on the spot. I have not had to do this too often but I have literally thrown them out of the pool and written them a check on the spot. I was a hero to the rest of the class. Of course the best way is to structure the situation so they make the decision you want them to make. This is the diplomatic may.
Do not work with Jerks get rid of them as quickly as possible!

This is important so don�t forget it. The sooner your students start having fun is directly proportional to your success as a scuba instructor is.

When people are having fun they are motivated and a physical average person can do wonders on scuba. So rig the course so they have fun right away. On the first day they must have fun. You all know about first impressions well scuba is no different. This can make the difference of success or failure of your student�s scuba course and your career. The student in the clear warm beautiful water who sees fish and feels safe and doesn�t choke will have a very different impression than the wetsuits clad, who waddles into a frigid rock quarry hoping to see some miner�s tools?
Schedule your course for 5-7 days of instruction. This leaves plenty of time for your slow learners. Only use full-fledged instructors as your assistants. Like I said before dive masters are wise fools. I can�t tell you how many times a wanna be divemaster yells at one of my student to put his snorkel in his mouth. Most of them have not been trained properly unless of course I brought them up through my system. They come in the shop all the time wanting a job. Actually what most of them want is a free scuba ride. I have had nothing but trouble with them from drinking to smoking pot to chasing the women students. I had one of them I showed the NOAA Manuel to who retorted Hey they stole this stuff from PADI. Wow what an idiot. Save your self-the trouble and train your own staff to Instructor level before you let them speak to a student. While Dive masters are in training they are not by standards to teach anything to a student and by my standards they keep there damn mouth shut. If they get in the way I get them out as soon as possible.

Should I go on�?

Zagnut

October 15th, 2001, 02:58 AM

Baby Ducks? People certified elsewhere will pollute the minds of your other students? It sounds like you've got everybody all figured out. You must be a SCUBA Demigod in the eyes of your ever so grateful and loyal students...
You give yourself way too much credit and not near enough to others. Just one question.. why would a full fledged instructor work as your assistant when he or she could make $100,000 a year teaching in paradise?

ScubaBaby

October 15th, 2001, 08:21 AM

Originally posted by captdave
Like I said before dive masters are wise fools. I can�t tell you how many times a wanna be divemaster yells at one of my student to put his snorkel in his mouth. Most of them have not been trained properly unless of course I brought them up through my system. They come in the shop all the time wanting a job. Actually what most of them want is a free scuba ride. I have had nothing but trouble with them from drinking to smoking pot to chasing the women students.

Captdave....
I agree completely with the fact that you have to start having fun in a diving course, if it doesnt start fun, people loose motivation very quickly and no longer are interested in completing the course successfully.

However, I did not catch on previously to you mentioning not using Divemasters. I think you have obviously had a few bad Divemasters, but surely you can't rule them all out. After all, the point in having divemasters is to assist the instructor where possible.

And one thing I'd like to point out, not all Divemasters are male...you can get female divemaster who might want to chase after the men students!!!!

Originally posted by captdave
Once imprinted it is irreversible

I also would have to disagree with what you have said above for several reasons.

I am currently learning to drive, my first instructor was terrible...taught me to hold the clutch whenever braking etc, my new instructor is teaching me not to do this...yes its hard for me to get out of the habit, but I'm getting there.

If "quality" instructors refuse to train students who have previously been with another instructor who may have taught them different with minor errors etc, how will that student ever learn whats right?

SubMariner

October 15th, 2001, 12:02 PM

As I said in a previous post, captdave, you might get more positive responses if you softened your approach. The tone I get from your msgs is: "I am the greatest and the rest of the dive world knows nothing".

And you wonder why people react defensively?

It is your contention that you have a successful scuba business model. While that may be true, your condescending attitude when addressing legitimate queries leads me to question your motives and your sincerity.

In addition, I find some of your remarks about customers, other dive operations, and dive leaders (like divemasters) to be less than professional.

Save your self-the trouble and train your own staff to Instructor level before you let them speak to a student. While Dive masters are in training they are not by standards to teach anything to a student and by my standards they keep there damn mouth shut. If they get in the way I get them out as soon as possible.

Your profile asserts that you are a PADI Master Instructor. I wonder how they would react to the aforementioned remark?

~SubMariner~

WetDane

October 15th, 2001, 12:48 PM

Hey Abby,

woudl you tell me what class I will have female DM chasing me? might just be worth a trip across the pond...
;)

Big T

captdave

October 15th, 2001, 12:55 PM

:)
OK!
Some Really good remarks and questions.
First of all I learned what I am telling you the hard way. I have made every possible mistake you can imagine in this business. The problem is most scuba instructors are really poor businessmen. They operate on an emotion level and not from the point of view of business.

In regards to Instructors; there is a Mexican proverb that I learned a bit too late. It translates: If you lay down with eagles they will peck your eyes out. This is really the case. I have created more competitors than I can stand. My town is full of dive shop owners that were once my students. Not all but most. I learned to late how to be selective in choosing assistants and then how to keep them loyal. In an earlier post someone mention that that they had to sign a non �compete contract. This is very good. SSI has gone one step further. All SSI Instructors can only work in an authorized SSI Dive Shop. They cannot order any teaching materials on their own. More and More the industry is coming to this although I dought very much that PADI would even consider anything like this. I however insist on a non-compete contract when any of my students wants to start Dive Master training. I also only select those individuals who are not too much of an independent thinking but who want to help out. If I get the slightest feeling or notion of them planning trips outside of our system or training friends outside of our system. They are History�and I do not hesitate to file a lawsuit to stop them. At least for a short time. A non-compete contract is only good for maybe two to three years. You cannot stop someone from making a living forever. That is enough time usually for them to move on to something else. I have had them come back to me years later saying they really missed our adventures and wish they had not of gone on the path they did. They are still out, Forever. I don�t even speak to them nor recognize them in a crowd.

I am sorry if I offend some of you out there but This is the only way I have of telling you what I consider the Hard truth and that is to not mince words too much. I will continue to try and keep it toned down a little.

Never Never Never Never Never allow yourself to be alone with a female student above water. My Course Director who is now deceased gave me this information and I didn�t really think this was a big deal. Well I can tell you it is a big deal. I have been accused of sexual harassment when I didn�t. I once was accused of hitting on a customer�s wife when I didn�t and later learned that she was angry because I didn�t hit on her.

This is a professional business and you must refrain from any kind of contact in this manner. Abby talks about lady divemaster hitting on the men. I think she was kidding but again this is a no no. You loose complete control at that point. Students will always try to drag you down to their level. You must stay above them at all times. This sometimes comes across as arrogant. It is only a defense mechanism.

We have a joke we pass around; never sleep with a student until the last night! This way they go home the next day. They are certified and it does not screw up your class.

I cannot speak to what PADI would say about my comments about my Dive Masters. The standards are quite specific. A dive Master may not deliver new information to any student. This means keep your damn mouth shut in my book. They can however elaborate something an Instructor has already taught. I do not allow this with my Dive Masters. They are there to observe and learn. After they complete this year of training they are put in the Assistant Instructor program for two years and then maybe they will become an Instructor. I currently have two assistants that I work with who are more than happy to travel to exotic places and enjoy our adventures while they are learning. IF you�re a pro, you�re a pro. Admiral Nemitz once said. When in command: COMMAND.

ScubaBaby

October 15th, 2001, 12:57 PM

Wetdane....
Well I don't know many divemasters round near me - but I'll look some up for you lol ! Shame I havent qualified yet really ! :jester:

joewr

October 15th, 2001, 01:45 PM

CaptDave,

Perhaps a more useful Mexican proverb is:

"Quien se duerme con perros se levanta con pulgas."

Which liberally translates to:

"He who sleeps with dogs wakes up with fleas."

And, I suppose we ought to do the "eagle" one in Spanish, too. However, I have not actually heard that one:

"Quien se duerme con aguilas se levanta sin ojos."

Joewr...saying, "Vamos a bucear, amigos!" (Let's go diving, friends!)

captdave

October 15th, 2001, 02:47 PM

To scuba baby and jower.
I didn't mean to forget you on my last post scuba baby but I think you would be a great candidate for my scuba re-certify seminar. I am very sorry your first instructor was so bad. This is what I have been talking about. I am glad we didn't loose you to the sport of diving. I really recommend re-certifying and taking your advanced at the same time. This will get you past that sour experience.
To Joewr. Thanks for the translations. and Really I am (what one of my 12 stepped dive masters use to say) JONESING for a dive trip.

WetDane

October 15th, 2001, 04:21 PM

Scuba Baby,
when you qualify I will get on that plane with a kit in my bag so fast the security guys heads will spin... :tease:

I guess I should not tell you this - but I have a plan to own (not operate - just own) a scuba resort in say the Channel islands in Honduras - my plan is to over charge CaptDave for his nice classes so all I need is a mate to drive MY dive boat...

Big T

SubMariner

October 15th, 2001, 04:42 PM

I cannot speak to what PADI would say about my comments about my Dive Masters. The standards are quite specific. A dive Master may not deliver new information to any student. This means keep your damn mouth shut in my book. They can however elaborate something an Instructor has already taught. I do not allow this with my Dive Masters. They are there to observe and learn. After they complete this year of training they are put in the Assistant Instructor program for two years and then maybe they will become an Instructor. I currently have two assistants that I work with who are more than happy to travel to exotic places and enjoy our adventures while they are learning. IF you�re a pro, you�re a pro. Admiral Nemitz once said. When in command: COMMAND.

I was trying to be diplomatic, but it's quite obvious you are a legend in your own mind. Very, very scary. :eek:

Now I know why you're a PADI MI and not a CD.

~SubMariner~

ScubaBaby

October 15th, 2001, 06:14 PM

I didn't mean to forget you on my last post scuba baby but I think you would be a great candidate for my scuba re-certify seminar. I am very sorry your first instructor was so bad. This is what I have been talking about. I am glad we didn't loose you to the sport of diving. I really recommend re-certifying and taking your advanced at the same time. This will get you past that sour experience.

Sorry, Captdave, I obviously explained myself badly. I wasnt actually talking about diving....i was talking about driving but how even if one instructor "mis-informs" you, there is always a better instructor to right the wrongs. But if the dive industry changes its ways to have your point of you, those instructors who misinform students, the students will never learn any better as they'll be turned away from everywhere else.

As for the offer of re-doing my openwater and doing my advanced at the same time, I am very very grateful for the offer, but I have a fiancee who is a Master Instructor who is currently taking me through my DiveMaster...but thank you anyway.

ScubaBaby

October 15th, 2001, 06:22 PM

Captdave

When I mentioned that female divemaster may chase the fellas, I wasn't actually meaning this as such. You'd previously said that you find most divemasters cause the girls - i was merely pointing out that there are female divemasters as well.

Students will always try to drag you down to their level. You must stay above them at all times. This sometimes comes across as arrogant. It is only a defense mechanism.

We have a joke we pass around; never sleep with a student until the last night! This way they go home the next day. They are certified and it does not screw up your class.

First, I am not an instructor, but am a student, and have never tried to "drag" down my instructor...nor would I try...maybe I am understanding this wrong - could you explain further please.

As for your non-fratanisation policy, I completely agree in a business sense in the fact it could disrupt work, however I also have to fight for the fact, if you get two people mature enough, it wouldnt be a problem - cause thats how I met my fiancee, and he made a buddle of commission on me anyway...no matter what was going on - it just made me spend more money cause i trusted him!

WetDane

October 15th, 2001, 07:20 PM

As you well should - well, that is after you have known him for a while...
Now - when Belushi finds another student - let me know would ya...

Big T

ScubaBaby

October 15th, 2001, 07:22 PM

I wouldnt let him find another student....hes all mine now!!
I know what he gets up to with his students now you see....i was/am one!!!

bash

October 15th, 2001, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by captdave
New scuba divers are like baby ducks. They imprint on the Instructor.....
(wince)LOL - I think you're quite right.

I guess that means the instructor has a great deal of moral responsibility to not pass on unbalanced information....

An ethical instructor wouldn't abuse the trust of an 'imprinted' student just for a buck? now would they? Hmmm?

:p
-bash

PS Actually, I can think of some instructors who would be working up hill to imprint their students... but on the whole I think your imprinting statement is correct for OW learners.

captdave

October 15th, 2001, 10:20 PM

well abby,
I guess I was wrong when I thought you took diving lessons from a bad instructor you now say it was DRIVING LESSONS that were so bad.
You also state you trust your instructor who you began dating and have been paying commissions all along the way. WOW!

I guess your really imprinted on him after all!.

I have seen this all too often in the business. I hope this isn't the case in your relationship but I suspect as soon as you stop paying commissions the relationship will end....Food for thought! GOOD Luck.:boom:

Tom

October 16th, 2001, 12:38 AM

Got to say something here. I've been putting up with your attitude through this whole thread. If I treated my customers or my employees like you do I would have have been out of business a long time ago. But you go ahead, it just makes the rest of the business people look good.

But when you start saying things about Abby, you lose whatever little respect you may have from anybody here. She's one of the most sincere and most liked people around. Anybody that thinks they can come on here and start saying things that may hurt her doesn't deserve our attention anymore. I'm done reading these arrogant, ego driven ramblings.

Tom

captdave

October 16th, 2001, 01:39 AM

:p
This thread is really getting too long and may be loosing its value. I noticed over 1200 have viewed it and that may be it needs to be started again as I have even barely touched the surface of making real money as a scuba instructor�. I have not been getting much more quality input other than those who want to take a jab at me. HA HA it�s been fun. SO here goes I will make another installment and that may be the last, as it seems to be cooling down now�.

When putting on your scuba seminar one of the reasons for using properly trained and highly seasoned Instructors and not divemaster is your students are paying top dollar and to give them a divemaster or a divemaster in training will make them feel cheated.

Your student to instructor Ration should be no more than 4 to 1 and with problem or slow students 1 to 1. Most of the time a 2 to 1 ratio is fine but really the one one to one approach is fantastic.

You spend about five minutes doing a few skills on the first dive and then ten minutes of seeing the fish and reef etc. Keep them at the rock sand interface so they won�t hurt anything. Make sure they have FUN. This is your ticket to success. The fun I repeat must start immediately and you have got them hooked�. I go to the 4 to 1 ratio when they have nearly completed the course.

Your clients will (Correctly) perceive your course to be safer and more personalized thus justifying the higher costs�.

8-10 students use 3 instructors this allows plenty of 1 to 1 time for the slower students.

Always use all of the training aids offered by your certifying agency. Textbook videos, slates, knowledge reviews, quizzes and exams.

Always use underwater video to help critique your students. (Not absolutely necessary) but I highly recommend it> It really helps to putting on the best scuba course possible.

Give them more dives than the course minimum. They paid for it and this really helps them to get solidly set in their diving abilities and keeps them diving and going on to the advanced and specialties.

Schedule there days to be full from lecture to videos to water. This keeps them focused and fills up their time. OF course the even is time for acknowledging everyone�s successes with dinner and a couple of drinks. Stay off the booze. Stay off the Booze.

It�s not safe. All too often a scuba course is really an excuse for a party to drink and chase babes. If this is your motivation it is fine and fun but don�t expect people to pay you big bucks for this type of situation. They will feel cheated from the start and probably will never return.

Be a professional all the time and it will reward to handsomely.

ScubaBaby

October 16th, 2001, 05:04 AM

Ok.....

I have seen this all too often in the business. I hope this isn't the case in your relationship but I suspect as soon as you stop paying commissions the relationship will end....Food for thought! GOOD Luck.

Captdave..just to explain a bit further cause I am really not saying this well enough for you to understand.

I paid commission to my instructor on my previous course of Recsue and Medic when I first met him...however we were having a fling at the time.

But I must add, that after I left Egypt (where I was doing this course) my instructor travelled 4500 miles to come live with me to start a relationship and that was 15 months ago and he is now my fiancee.....so what you have seen all to often before hasn't worked in this situation.

Sorry I didn't explain myself clear enough before!

Duca

October 16th, 2001, 06:15 AM

Cap'n,

I've been sitting back and watching this thread for a few days now.. and I still can't believe that anyone out there is taking your advice seriously.

So, how about it.. are you sincere enough (and legitimate enough) to take someone from the board as an AI or DM on your next trip? I'm sure you'd have a few willing participants to choose from...

To be honest, I'd be impressed (and surprised) if you could provide us with pictures or testimonials from your most recent expedition. although, after what you've said about fleecing them, I can't imagine that you'd invite your students to the board?
Has it not occured to you that some of those Nerdy-Techno-Geeks that you supposedly put through your program might be participants on the largest, most professional Scuba Discussion site in the world????:rolleyes:

WetDane

October 16th, 2001, 10:56 AM

Well, I have heard a couple of interesting things here - amongst other things that I am a sitting duck (it happens so that I am a techno geek - and proud of it).
I have let all these things slide since this is to me an interesting discussion, there is always something to learn - even if a concept is a little high flying...

However, regardless of available documentation.
The comments about Abby's relationship was completely uncalled for and to me indicates that CaptDave is not only lying (he does not have the charisma to successfully pull this off), but he has no respect for people and have not bothered to become a member of this community - he has chosen to be an outsider who insists on insulting members of this board.

To those who has an interest in him - good luck.
And to CaptDave - you know what honorable guys do when you insult their friends right? (Oh, nevermind - you wouldn't know what I'm talking about).

Big T

Lost Yooper

October 16th, 2001, 11:09 AM

:upset:

It's one thing to have a "lively", but civil, debate on various topics, but outright insults like this are totally uncalled for. Personally, I can handle people who come on who are misinformed, arrogant, strongly opinionated, and even out right liars. Heck, maybe I fit into some of that, but IMO, you have added more insult than info to this board and that isn't welcomed as far as I'm concerned.

Too bad Dave, that was the last straw.

Mike

captdave

October 16th, 2001, 01:04 PM

:rolleyes:

I think some of you people out there can�t read or only want to hear what you want. I have in no way insulted Abby, If anything I was trying to warn her of a possible problem. Like I said because of the imprinting factor Some Instructors take advantage of the situation with students. Damn it guys wake up and smell the roses.
Teaching scuba is a sexy thing. Your in the water your operating in swimming suits, your bolstering ego�s making people feel good about them self. Some people get this confused and fall for the scuba instructor. It happens all the time. I was just trying to warn Abby. Since her last post it seems this may be a legitimate relationship but prior to that who knows.
A scuba instructor has to take these facts into consideration. When I first started Teaching I was shocked at this phenomena and had to really hold back. Now it just comes with the territory.

ScubaBaby

October 16th, 2001, 06:23 PM

Duca and Wetdane

I am touched that you jump to my rescue but there is no need. I must admitt here that CaptDave is right in saying what he has. He is obviously a man of experience and knows this does go on and was only protecting my back....as I had not explained properly my currently situation.

But Captdave, altho this mistake was made my Duca and Wetdane I don't think we need to start saying people cant read!!!! I know it was probably said in jest but none the less this doesnt seem to be heated and I am worried everyone is taking everything word for word.

We all have to remember, this is an educational thread. I for one have learnt a lot from the posts of CaptDave and I am sure many of you have, even if it was just the opposite for what you believe it.

Remember that for you to believe in something, you have to know the opposite first....and to some thats what CaptDave has provided....and for others it provided free information that could prove to be the turning point in your life in the dive industry.

joewr

October 16th, 2001, 06:58 PM

ScubaBaby,

We all have to believe in something...

I believe I'll have another glass of good California Cabernet to go with my late lunch...

Joewr...beyond belief and into denial...

ScubaBaby

October 16th, 2001, 07:28 PM

And I believe that belushi and I shouldnt have polished off two bottles of very nice white wine this evening cause Belushi snores badly at the best of times!!!! ;)

captdave

October 16th, 2001, 07:48 PM

:)
Thanks Abby.
Some of you out there seem to think that a high-end expensive scuba course is a rip off. Then why do so many people come again and again?

Never NEVER never believe that by being well paid to make other people happy is wrong. To many of us have this problem with making money? It is OK to make money and it is OK to make a lot of money teaching scuba. Never let anybody tell you it cannot be done. It can be done, you can do it. I have done it and I will continue to tell you how to make it work for you.

The next question you need to answer is how you can become the scuba instructor that people will pay a lot of money to be with?

You have to be well seasoned, experienced and know what your doing. You have to be believable. If you want to build a world class dive program that will attract quality people who will pay you the big bucks.

You must be able to teach all of the recreational scuba courses. That�s all the Specialties.
Learn underwater photography and videography.
Become an expert on scuba equipment including repair.
Use every training tool you can
Become a master of Logistics.
Learn the top 12 dive locations and become familiar with them all and expert guide.

Avoid teaching any of the leadership courses this means from rescue on up until they have taken as many of the specialties and done a great deal of traveling with you and are finally begging you for the rescue class.
Try not to make Instructors, as they will become your competitors sooner or later. Always use a non-compete contract if you decide to.

It is the regular person who wants to become a recreational diver that is your meat and potatoes. This is where the money is so stay in this are and teach them all of the recreational courses available.

By Using Video and Underwater communications you can speak directly underwater to your students and you can show them their mistakes when you�re back on board the boat. This will help your job become a lot easier and get your students to become better divers quicker. Plus the razzel dazzle of the hi tech also makes your expensive course seem justified. You can rent an u/W Video camera if you do not have one. I think even the low end courses will produce better divers if they went to the video aspect in their training.

People just love to watch themselves in home movies and on television. They just love this and have fun laughing at themselves and showing off to the new dive friends�Never ever put a student down always find a positive way to critique them.

Logistics is the most important aspect of your program, Things must go right and if they go wrong it can hurt your entire program. If something goes wrong do not make a big deal and curse and or stomp your feet. I have seen scuba instructors throw weight belts and slam hatches etc. etc. This is stupid. If you have a problem you must be able to communicate to your assistants with special pre-arranged signals that only you and they understand. Make sure the clients never know something went wrong.
Remember if you get upset they get upset.

Discuss the primary dive sites, alternate dive side, weather consideration and time to the sites. Do this in private so that if a site is no good or wind screws things up you can adjust to the other sites without anybody noticing.

MAKE PROBLEMS BECOME INVISIBLE

Discuss in private with your staff problem students and possible solutions. Before the student re-enters the water.
Have spare equipment readily available at all times should an equipment failure happen it is corrected quickly.

Institute a plan for aborted dives for those divers who pop UP by having standby personnel readily available. This prevents other students from being left UN-supervised.

Make sure the transportation to and from the airport. To and from the boat. Etc. is handled. People will blame you if it isn�t

Arrange for baggage transfers and early check INS when necessary. Make sure they get their stuff. I spend several hours once on the tarmac Guarding my client�s luggage and gear that had been thrown off the airplane. While waiting for grounded airplanes due to bad weather. Never expect that things will go correctly. Make sure they do!

You check on the accommodations in advance. DO not rely on a provider or a travel agent. They are notoriously terrible with this. I learned this the hard way. I had a great resort at Cayman booked When I arrived I learned that there were Hugh Fuel Storage Tanks on both sides of this resort. They had built a fuel dump around the resort. Wow What a Mess. We used the side of one of the tanks to show slides and videos and never had a problem. I also went out and purchased a barbecue grill and cooked several meals for everybody. I told them that this resort which was beautiful allowed us to do lots of extra fun stuff. Nobody seemed to mind but I never booked the place again and I think some people felt a little cheated.

Be able to switch your schedule at a moments notice when ever boat problems and weather prevents you from diving. Have another lecture ready to go etc�I remember once I fixed a shaft of the boat with some Monelwire I always carry in my save a dive trip box..

Belushi

October 17th, 2001, 12:49 AM

I have seen this all too often in the business. I hope this isn't the case in your relationship but I suspect as soon as you stop paying commissions the relationship will end....Food for thought!

Capt Dave,
There was no insult intended (I hope), and no insult was taken. Being of the broad shouldered variety I understand your thoughts on the matter completely.
Generally most guys who become instructors do it for the "God Complex"

A good diving instructor is empathetic, understanding, never chiding, never loses their temper, patient and freindly. Lots of the attributes women want in a man. But in reality, this is only a job. The "benefits" of the job in respect to the members of the opposite sex are manyfold (if you are into that sort of thing)

I am a 34 year old Master Instructor with nearly ten years teaching experience in three continents and I have also seen it all. I am a cynical old instructor who does not want to be bothered with the absurdities of teaching diving and all the doggies-do-do that go with it.

Your comment above, was fairly personal and not very pleasant. If I did not have the experience I do, I could have taken great offence to this and want death before dishonour.

Your threads are informative (for those who listen and dont rant) and educational. It is just the fact that you and I are similar in our bluntness. I get greif all the time about my bluntness. To which I reply if they don't like it then they can whistle.

this does not work here. I used to take my responsibilities as a professional educator seriously and I enjoyed educating people.
but people who do not have the werewithal to understand a message that is short and brief will get upset.

You have the pleasure of being able to market your saleable product in a manner that you want. I did not. When you have to cheapen your courses by doing them in three days to make money by turnover, you cheapen yourself.

Your competition is your own fault, and by being a professional educator, you have created a rod for your own back. Been there as well. one of my Instructor students got me the sack and then went on to take my General Manager's job. She is now a PADI Course Director.

All I am saying is ignore your detractors, and should only one person take on board your knowledge, then you have succeeded as the professional educator you are. But be a bit less forthcoming about other people and their opinions

vmf

October 17th, 2001, 05:35 AM

:) After reading over 1200 replies to this thread what have I learnt:
a. People love to read about how to make money.
b. Every one has their own morals & ethics.
c. Capt Dave should produce a book - I'm not sure if it would be included as background reading to the topic "How to successfully run a dive business!" or an accompaniment to various dive instructor manuals.

Regards,

vmf :sunny:

Ldreamin

October 17th, 2001, 08:19 AM

Capt. Dave,

You have said a lot throughout your post and it makes me wonder, what exactly are you looking for here? Are you looking for someone with no experience that has nothing better to do for the next 3 years that you can train your way? :confused:

There's been lots of input but you've never said what you are looking for...

Ldreamin

DivingGal

October 17th, 2001, 08:30 AM

Wow. Talk about opening up a can of worms, and then to keep putting your foot in your mouth.

Some --- yes some of your ideas of making money probably will work. If you have the guts to use them. And you have to have the naive consumer available to believe them.

I have found this thread, well interesting to read. It's got me hot under the collar for all the insults that have been thrown by Capt Dave to us. Then I've calmed down, and read his explanations when he's realized that he's overstepped the line. Although I may not agree with his opinions -- that's what they are, his opinions.

What I find upsetting is the fact that it's a constant cycle. He keeps putting his foot in his mouth, and insulting someone else, and then trying to explain.

Sorry CaptDave, read the responses, and the profiles of the people you're "zinging". We're not all novices and we're not all dumb.

Input from everyone is welcome. How else are we going to learn to improve on what we see as irresponsible behaviour.

captdave

October 17th, 2001, 11:11 AM

:(
Hello Diving Gal
Thank you for your post. I did what you suggested and checked your profile. I see you are a Dive master� Hum! Like I said, dive masters are wise fools and they should keep their mouths shut. You need to hook up with a good instructor and stay there for a couple of years. I also notice you have 8 specialties this will stand you in good stead toward your goals in the dive industry. I also notice you are from Canada. This is wonderful. You know that Canada has more divers than down her in the United States. It is because the children are started into snorkeling at a young age and are ready for scuba by 12. Hang in their diving gal I am sure you will make a good instructor someday. I do not think you would fit into my program .

syruss32

October 17th, 2001, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by captdave
:(
Hello Diving Gal
Thank you for your post. I did what you suggested and checked your profile. I see you are a Dive master� Hum! Like I said, dive masters are wise fools and they should keep their mouths shut. You need to hook up with a good instructor and stay there for a couple of years. I also notice you have 8 specialties this will stand you in good stead toward your goals in the dive industry. I also notice you are from Canada. This is wonderful. You know that Canada has more divers than down her in the United States. It is because the children are started into snorkeling at a young age and are ready for scuba by 12. Hang in their diving gal I am sure you will make a good instructor someday. I do not think you would fit into my program .

CaptDave must you always insult people. I think the reason you have this thread is simply to give you avenue to vent your inner problems on us because you can't elsewhere.

I wonder were telling DivingGal she is a "Wise Fool and should keep their mouths shut" is of need in this post. Then to make it worse you tell her she needs to be under a good instuctor for a few more years. Man if you are a good instructor, diving as a sport is doomed.

But I do agree that she would not fit into your program, as there is not enough room in your delusions for anyone but you.

I would hazzard a guess that divers that train under you wish they would learn more about how to off someone and make it look like an accident because the attitude you present has to show to everyone. And I can pretty much assure you that you do not make the kind of money you claim to make because nobody would come back for seconds with someone like you or recommend others.

Give me a Wise Fool and a REAL instructor anytime, but if you are it, I give up on my path to training!

DivingGal, you could be my DM anytime (course being just OW certified it make take like 20 years till I make instructor hehehehe)

TwoBitTxn

October 17th, 2001, 12:32 PM

I find this thread educational. He has put forth some interesting ideas. These ideas would work for a (IMHO) very small percentage of instructors, and a very small percentage of students. It takes a tremendous amount of work, research, moxy, a very healthy ego, and I'm sure plenty of up front capital.

Dallas is( or at least used to be) loaded with young single professionals who if their singles group said "hey we are gonna provide you with an opportunity to get dive trained in St. Croix on a week long trip for $XXXX. It would go over well. That is probably the first route I would go. The logistics are still very difficult. It would be easier to do if you had your own shop.

I don't agree with the attitude towards DM's. To keep people from becomming competition... pay them well, give them benefits, don't give them a reason to leave.

Yes students like to stick with one instructor. Its a comfort factor. Its someone they know, and trust. Who better to keep CE going than having to learn from someone else and find out if thats someone you can get to know and trust. I was trained in college, and like most college students I moved after graduation. I would love to find a shop I can deal with and an instructor I can relate to.
Interesting ideas, and in a truly ideal situation I don't doubt it would work. I also don't think truly ideal situations exist. As you have said Capt. you still have to be able to compete with everyone else.

Tom

Duca

October 17th, 2001, 12:50 PM

Cappy,

I've noticed since my last post that you have managed to bluntly insult at least one more person... and a whole class of divers... but you have yet to respond to many of my questions.
Found any testimonials from satisfied students?
Got any info on your next class that someone can participate in?
Care to take on someone from SB as an observer/student/whatever?
If you have everything figured out, and "made it rich in SCUBA," why are you still offering the same courses/programs as everyone else on your website?

Butch103

October 17th, 2001, 01:25 PM

I have read with grat interest this thread and your ideas. I have also commented on this thread an put forth my own opinions.

I am saddend with the tone of your messages to the other posters when they disagree with you and your ideas. This said, I am also saddend by the response to your idea.

Perhaps I will understand the negativity when ( and if ) I become an instructor. From a business sense most of your ideas sound resonable. I am assuming you have a far more indepth business plan than what has been expressed on this thread.

Butch :Peace:

captdave

October 17th, 2001, 01:46 PM

:D
OK enough fun now its time to move ahead. I really love to kibitz with you guys. I hope you don�t take it too seriously. Once you get to know me better I think you will find I am full of a lot of xxxx and love to have a lively exchange. It does get me into trouble sometimes but I am the stage in my life where I really don�t care anymore. When talking to my friends I love to rank them when talking with students and clients its mister diplomatic. On this level that we are talking about I am no longer stroking egos I am making professionals. Most of the up comers have got it all wrong and need a kick in the pants to think about what is. Lets move ahead with the thread and see what else I have to say that you can critique me about.

Don�t just sell your scuba seminar sell yourself and your staff. By preparing yourself and your staff to the highest level you have something more to offer your students than the run of the mill Instructor and divemaster routine. Again I state: Your staff should all be well seasonsed instructors and master instructors. Do not use Dive Masters. If you have a Divemaster in training his or her only function is to observe and to provide backup in the event of a pop up student. They need to be friendly cordial and humble. If they are even apologetic this goes well with your clients.

My dive Master/ Assistant Instructor Course costs $1000.00 I think the most expensive in the nation. How can I get this much for this course?
The run of the mill dive master has to take 5 tests on physics, equipment, bla bla bla. He has to assist with two open water classes and wha la he is a dive master�Well no he is not a dive master. I don�t even allow my dive masters to take their exams for at least a year. What constitutes a good dive master is experience with students in training. Operation of the compressor systems, Operation of the small boats, ability to fix a regulator in the field in minutes. Understanding of the equipment that the shop sells. Make sure that all your assistants and dive master wears exactly the same equipment that you do and then sell this exact system to your students. Why not, it is the best in the industry and this will make your money on the far side. I do not want any of my staff to wear anything that we do not sell in the shop and if they advise differently they are out forever.

Anyway what makes a seasoned Instructor. In an earlier thread I think called what makes a good instructor or diving uncertified there was a lively debate about teaching scuba and some felt an experience diver could do a great job. Well this is just stupid. One of the sections in the Instructor training program is to deal with student problems. The course director creates scenario where the instructor candidates have common problems and deal with these problems. The key is experience in what is going on out there underwater and how to deal with a problem right now. A well-seasoned Instructor not only has practiced these in the pool and classroom and open water but he has lived it for a couple of years as an assistant instructor. Now this is a guy you want on your staff. I know Instructors who can�t even fill a scuba tank.

Now lets get one thing straight about why I am so tough on my staff. It is past the spoiling stage. I no longer need to stroke their egos. We are professionals with people�s lives in our hands. If I tell an Instructor to do something he had better know how to do it and to do it now. If he doesn�t its my fault> This is especially when things get real dicey like in a hurricane, which I have lived through two, and brought back all of my divers UN harmed. Since I am a real Captain I can tell you a life on the sea is not all fun and games.
I remember one time we were in a Hugh storm I was at the helm and we had a student go down. I was using the boat staff as my staff. I needed for them to get Oxygen to this student. I had brought my Oxygen kit from Dan. Do you know not one of those people knew how to assemble the oxygen kit? I had to instruct them on the spot while my student waited for Oxygen.
In another InstanceI was with a major dive operation in Roatan and had even checked out that they had the correct emergency equipment on board. When I had a student who surfaced to quickly and needed oxygen we learned their oxygen bottle was near empty. Fortunately we were close enough to shore and were able to get oxygen quickly�
Don�t trust anybody or any operation. You make damn sure that you have all of the equipment in place and that it works properly and the staff knows how to operate it.

I should point out that I have never had an injured student or a student who got DCS etc. I use oxygen for seasickness as well as other minor problems. It really makes a difference. More on this later.

My last dive master I trained wandered off as they usually do. He ended up in Thailand. He went to work for a dive operation and when they learned what he knew They made him the shop general manager and then put him through a quick instructor course�He later got drunk and wrecked a car and is now selling soft wear.

ScubaBaby

October 17th, 2001, 01:57 PM

Captdave...

I do not want any of my staff to wear anything that we do not sell in the shop and if they advise differently they are out forever.

So, if I wanted to train with you on my DM course, I had everything you wanted me to have, but I needed a BC that you didnt stock due to a kidney condition which means I can't have to much weight on my back, would you employ me even tho i couldnt wear matching gear - and possibly gear from somewhere other than your shop?

Ask just out of interest!

Zagnut

October 17th, 2001, 03:16 PM

"In another Instance I was with a major dive operation in Roatan and had even checked out that they had the correct emergency equipment on board. When I had a student who surfaced to quickly and needed oxygen we learned their oxygen bottle was near empty. Fortunately we were close enough to shore and were able to get oxygen quickly�" - Captdave

I guess your not as thorough as you'd like us to believe. If you were, you'd have followed your own advice and made sure the O2 tank had been filled.

"Don�t just sell your scuba seminar sell yourself" -Captdave

Judging from how you "sell yourself" here on the board, I find it hard to believe that you could "sell yourself" to your students and customers like you say you can. I'm always suspicious of someone's stated skills and abilities when they have to tear others down to elevate themselves. You've made some good points here, but I would be willing to bet that you think you're better than other people think you are, including your students and costumers.

syruss32

October 17th, 2001, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by Zagnut
"In another Instance I was with a major dive operation in Roatan and had even checked out that they had the correct emergency equipment on board. When I had a student who surfaced to quickly and needed oxygen we learned their oxygen bottle was near empty. Fortunately we were close enough to shore and were able to get oxygen quickly�" - Captdave

I guess your not as thorough as you'd like us to believe. If you were, you'd have followed your own advice and made sure the O2 tank had been filled.

"Don�t just sell your scuba seminar sell yourself" -Captdave

Judging from how you "sell yourself" here on the board, I find it hard to believe that you could "sell yourself" to your students and customers like you say you can. I'm always suspicious of someone's stated skills and abilities when they have to tear others down to elevate themselves. You've made some good points here, but I would be willing to bet that you think you're better than other people think you are, including your students and costumers.

All I have to say is Jekyl and Hyde.... One face to most people and one face to himself. I think you are likely right on the nail with this one Zagnut

captdave

October 17th, 2001, 05:00 PM

;)
Hi Abby. This is a really good question. Again I insist you wear our equipment if you want to work with us. However, There a lady versions of the BCD that may work for you. Further, I would want you to see my doctor who is a great friend and diver about this Kidney condition to make sure it is safe for you to continue diving and especially in a professional manner. Now for clarification You must wear the BCD, Regulators and Computer. Mask fins and snorkels can be different but must come from our chosen dive shop.

To the other guys that point out my mistakes this also is good. If you remember in an earlier post I told you I have made every mistake in the book before coming to this point in my life. I offer these as examples of my mistakes so that you will not make the same mistakes as I have. I really could rank you guys but you did a good job on yourselves with this one any way HA HA :mean:

NJDiver_34

October 17th, 2001, 05:13 PM

I believe captdave is showing a side of the dive industry that many don't like. And the truth is most won't even talk about. Its kinda like when you found out that your parents had sex. The reality is diving is a sport to those who don't own a dive shop. And it's a bussiness for those who make their living in the dive industry. I dont feel that there is anything wrong with looking at the dive industry through captdave's perspective. It helps the recreational diver to see this side though many may not agree with it. Though a doctor sees you and gives compasion to those who are sick, try to visit him with no money or insurance. You will see a side that your not used to seeing. Money does make the world go round and wheather you like it or not, captdave's view on this issue are more prevelent then most think. I for one don't think there is anything wrong with making a good buck as long as your student's safety isn't jeopardized!!!!! If unnecessary risks are taken and safety is diminished in anyway, I think it's time to stop and rethink your priorities.

NJDiver_34

Heads Up

October 17th, 2001, 05:44 PM

I have spent the past two nights reading your postings and reading the questions / arguments / queries posted by my fellow board members.

First off, congratulations on proposing an original and intuitative concept on the ways and hows of earning more money through Scuba instruction. You really have 'thought ouside the box' and, as with most industries, this is the key to uncovering and dominating a new market. I read your early posts with interest because, while not original in themselves (I train a similar concept to over 100 financial advisers a year), it is unique in my experience to have related this to Scuba instruction.

I followed your earlier posts with interest because you seemed to have a new message to pass on to us.

Where it started to go sour was with your attitude.

You are obviously only in this for the money. If your students or staff fail to meet your expectations, you simply get rid of the problem. You refund money to troublesome students and sack staff who do not toe 'the party line'. I understand that you qualify students under the PADI system - but really you want to sell the 'Captain Dave qualification'

You do not want free thinking staff who you are proud to say you certified, but would prefer to certify Captain Dave automans who only preach the gospel according to Saint Dave.

This is wrong to many of us on the board. I am currently a DM candidate under a superb Master Instructor (who, contrary to your previous posts, was NOT my original OW instructor). I have great respect for his diligence and patience and for the fact that he will sacrifice his earnings from an OW class to developing me to the next level.

You may not have realised (or more probably do not recognise or even care) that many of this board's members dive for the sheer enjoyment of experiencing the wonders of the underwater kingdom. We revel in our experiences and rejoice in sharing them with others. I have many friends here who I would not only gladly dive with, but am willing to confer my meagre knowledge with FOR NO MATERIAL GAIN.

Scuba is NOT my be all and end all as far as generating an income (I do sufficiently well, by your standards in my day job to satisfy this)

I took great exception (and I am sure you will find most of the board members did too) to your comments regarding Scubababy's relationship with her instructor and partner Belushi.

First off, hats off to both of them by replying to you in a detached and constructive manner (this confirms why Scubababy has had Regulator status conferred upon her). Had it been me or my partner you slandered, I don't think I would (or could) have been so gracious.

I am sorry that you could not impart your message to us without displaying the arrogance and disregard for the general values held by the other members of the board because I genuinely felt you had something of value to add to the board. Instead, you have confirmed the general opinion that you are a money grabbing, self serving, arrogant know-it-all who, in my opinion, has no place in the general Scuba community.

Zagnut

October 17th, 2001, 06:32 PM

I agree with your post. I will also say that I understand that Scuba, to some people, is a business. That is fine. I started out in this thread encouraging Captdave to continue and even threw out some ideas for his approach. After all, if nobody treated scuba as work, where would we sport divers find instruction and/or equipment. That is why I personally have no desire to work as an instrustor or be anything more than a rec diver. I feel like it might take some of the pleasure out of diving for me, but I'm glad there are those out there who do work in this industry.

I will say however, that in the industry I work in, or any other for that matter, someone can maintain the bottom line without treating others with disrespect or making enemies out of the competition. I don't know about other professions, but in mine there have even been times when a competitor has helped me out. In my line of work we bid directly against each other, but I can still build a constructive relationship with many of my competitors. Doing this has benefitted me at times. I would imagine those principles would apply to the business of scuba as well. I just don't see the need for arrogance and a disrespect for others in the industry.

captdave

October 17th, 2001, 06:40 PM

Hey if you guys can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen. I find it rather interesting the same few who want to rank me continue to do it without much real input to the subject. I really wish you guys were on my boat as I would throw you off at the next harbor. HA HA.

OK Guys lets move ahead.
Being prepared encompasses a lot of preparation. You need to carry spare equipment, regulators, gauges, and alternate air sources. Flashlights, hoses, straps, dive computers and computer batteries, and mouth pieces. It is easier to swap a regulator on the spot rather than take the time to fix it just then. I always carry the necessary repair kits for repairs later when time permits. Now this becomes really easy if everybody is wearing the same equipment. You can�t carry an entire dive shop with you but if everybody is using the same REG. same BCD�s, and same computers a few repair kits and your home free and everybody keeps diving. There is no excuse for someone to miss a dive due to malfunction equipment so keep it simple and have ample backups and supplies.

I had a diver forget his mask once and after a 20-mile trip to a special island I know in the Sea of Cortez, He could not dive because he had forgotten his mask. When I pulled out a spare it saved his dive and he has been diving with me ever since�

Let�s talk more about this Underwater Video and Camera Business.
YOU MUST DO IT> It sets you apart from the regular instructor. It allows you the opportunity to create exciting moving pictures of your dive seminar for your �Commercial� and the people just love this. Editing is extremely important as nobody likes to watch a video unedited. Editing machines are real cheep now days and most live-aboards have one on board and you can shoot in the day edit in the afternoon and present in the evening. You can create a trip video which you sell to your clients at the end of the trip say $60.00 apiece Times 10 that�s a potential of another $600.00. DO IT. Not all will buy but many will.

Give them a Nikonis V to take some pictures with as soon as they get their buoyancy control down. DO NOT USE these cheap versions of an underwater point and shoot. They really don�t take very good pictures and a course in U/W Camera usage is designed for the use of a real camera. I have students come to me with a point and shoot and want to use it in my underwater camera course and I say no. I will let them use one of my cameras. A REAL CAMERA. Most good operators have the ability to process your film the same day and you can show slides that evening. DO not make prints. ALWAYS MAKE SLIDES this way everybody can enjoy the fun and prints can be made later. I am now using a Nikonis III with a light meter and it is truly fun. When I go on a fun dive trip for just me and my staff I could spend the whole time taking pictures. I am also hooked on this part of our sport. Your clients get hooked also after one roll of film with a good cameras and you then sell them the U/W Camera course and of course a camera.

This same philosophy holds true with all of the Specialties. Teach them how to use a speargun and you sell spear guns. Teach them how do to a wreck dive and you sell extra lights. Reels and safety equipment. Teach them the Night dive specialty course to sell dive lights and back ups. Etc. etc. etc.

Another point here. When you go diving for yourself never dive with anybody less qualified than you otherwise you end up with the liability and the responsibility. I have gone on fun dive trip with my staff and we sign up as advanced divers. This is so we can have fun and not be bothered by everybody else�s problems. We go to dive and be left alone. You should take your staff out on frequent adventures just you and the guys and gals for fun- it helps clear the cobwebs.

Heads Up

October 17th, 2001, 07:02 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by captdave
Hey if you guys can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen. I find it rather interesting the same few who want to rank me continue to do it without much real input to the subject. I really wish you guys were on my boat as I would throw you off at the next harbor. HA HA.

Not sure I understand this as your English is kind of sketchy - what nationality are you (or did you decide to abandon your education at an early age in pursuit of your chosen 'Donald Trump' dive career?) Personally, if I found myself aboard HMS Captain Dave, I think I would probably have jumped by now. You find it interesting that the 'few who rank you continue to do it without much real input' - ie if you have not replied, you must be WITH me - BIT of an assumption perhaps (maybe the VAST majority of the Scubaboard family do not regard your thread worth the effort of replying to)

Another point here. When you go diving for yourself never dive with anybody less qualified than you otherwise you end up with the liability and the responsibility.

This COULD prove to be a problem if instructing n'est-ce pas?

I have gone on fun dive trip with my staff and we sign up as advanced divers. This is so we can have fun and not be bothered by everybody else�s problems.

Hmmm - if this was MY instructor's attitude to buddies the I'd have to quote Arnie - 'Asta La Vista Baby'

Keep 'em coming CD, I have just realised you are trying to become the Buster Keaton of the Deep Blue

As I have previously stated, I am sorry you feel unable to impart your message on an impartial level.

captdave

October 17th, 2001, 10:04 PM

:)
OK Guys lets move ahead.
Being prepared encompasses a lot of preparation. You need to carry spare equipment, regulators, gauges, and alternate air sources. Flashlights, hoses, straps, dive computers and computer batteries, and mouth pieces. It is easier to swap a regulator on the spot rather than take the time to fix it just then. I always carry the necessary repair kits for repairs later when time permits. Now this becomes really easy if everybody is wearing the same equipment. You can�t carry an entire dive shop with you but if everybody is using the same REG. same BCD�s, and same computers a few repair kits and your home free and everybody keeps diving. There is no excuse for someone to miss a dive due to malfunction equipment so keep it simple and have ample backups and supplies.

I had a diver forget his mask once and after a 20-mile trip to a special island I know in the Sea of Cortez, He could not dive because he had forgotten his mask. When I pulled out a spare it saved his dive and he has been diving with me ever since�

Let�s talk more about this Underwater Video and Camera Business.
YOU MUST DO IT> It sets you apart from the regular instructor. It allows you the opportunity to create exciting moving pictures of your dive seminar for your �Commercial� and the people just love this. Editing is extremely important as nobody likes to watch a video unedited. Editing machines are real cheep now days and most live-aboards have one on board and you can shoot in the day edit in the afternoon and present in the evening. You can create a trip video which you sell to your clients at the end of the trip say $60.00 apiece Times 10 that�s a potential of another $600.00. DO IT. Not all will buy but many will.

Give them a Nikonis V to take some pictures with as soon as they get their buoyancy control down. DO NOT USE these cheap versions of an underwater point and shoot. They really don�t take very good pictures and a course in U/W Camera usage is designed for the use of a real camera. I have students come to me with a point and shoot and want to use it in my underwater camera course and I say no. I will let them use one of my cameras. A REAL CAMERA. Most good operators have the ability to process your film the same day and you can show slides that evening. DO not make prints. ALWAYS MAKE SLIDES this way everybody can enjoy the fun and prints can be made later. I am now using a Nikonis III with a light meter and it is truly fun. When I go on a fun dive trip for just me and my staff I could spend the whole time taking pictures. I am also hooked on this part of our sport. Your clients get hooked also after one roll of film with a good cameras and you then sell them the U/W Camera course and of course a camera.

This same philosophy holds true with all of the Specialties. Teach them how to use a speargun and you sell spear guns. Teach them how do to a wreck dive and you sell extra lights. Reels and safety equipment. Teach them the Night dive specialty course to sell dive lights and back ups. Etc. etc. etc.

Another point here. When you go diving for yourself never dive with anybody less qualified than you otherwise you end up with the liability and the responsibility. I have gone on fun dive trip with my staff and we sign up as advanced divers. This is so we can have fun and not be bothered by everybody else�s problems. We go to dive and be left alone. You should take your staff out on frequent adventures just you and the guys and gals for fun- it helps clear the cobwebs.

Zagnut

October 17th, 2001, 10:34 PM

I gave input to your original topic, but you seem to have run out of steam. The video thing is a good idea, but you've mentioned it several times now. Keeping spare equipment around such as a mask isn't new or innovative and you've mentioned it a couple of times. Teaching someone to use a camera and hoping they buy one isn't new either. Like the rest of us, you don't seem to have any new input. I guess that would be a sign that this thread has pretty much run it's course...interesting thread though..

captdave

October 17th, 2001, 11:48 PM

:)
A little clarification before I go on. Jay was concerned that when we traveled for fun we threw out the buddy system. This is not true. The facts are that once you become a divermaster and instructor you are liable for everything. If you go diving with an advanced diver and you are a dive master or instructor and that diver gets hurt you will be sued. That�s just the way it is. Of course if someone was in need of our help we would help out and have done so but we still keep our little secret about our certification level. This is why all professional levels should have insurance. I know many dive masters who do not think this important. Well it is if you want to keep your house. We are all insured but a lawsuit is time consuming and a real pain in the butt so we avoid these as much as possible when diving for fun.

About your competition. An earlier post talked about how nice they get along with their competition and they all bid in the same scenario. Wow that is not a competitor but an associate. A competitor will steal your client list and screw up your database so you can�t mail or call them. A competitor will steel all of your training aids and copy all of your training videos that you spent thousands of dollars acquiring. A competitor will spread lies and gossip about you and slander you to every diver they can. A competitor will steal your girl friend and sabotage your dive boat. A competitor will tell a scuba manufacturer that if they sell to your shop they will drop their line and effectively keep you from being able to handle a line of equipment you wanted to offer your students. Have you ever wondered why different shops sell different equipment? It is not a preference it is the way the Manufacturers divide up the territory and if your sales go down you can loose your equipment line to a competitor. One earlier post mentioned that he trained a lady who later stole his job. Wake up and smell the coffee about your competitor. Haven�t any of you doubters seen the godfather? This is WAR. You are in a very glamorous profession Most people have no idea how much work it really takes and will do anything to have your life style. They will try to steal your staff and ruin you so they can have what you have. I have had all of these things perpetrated on me. I just let karma takes its time and as always revenge is a dish best served up cold.
I am currently training two rather great gentlemen to assist me on my future seminars and adventures. These guys will be a real asset to our operation and I am looking forward to getting them trained the correct way.

In answer to those of you who think I disrespect my clients you couldn�t be more wrong. I have found a niche in the market place. I train the don�t wanders. I train those nerd types and tech heads that aren�t good-looking or physically endowed. They have less than perfect motor skills and have been rejected in a lot of areas of their lives. Have you noticed there is always one shop that has all of the beautiful people in town? Hell anybody can train a highly physical independent type personality. They mostly train them selves but it takes a real pro to take an average guy to top scuba diver. I�ll even go one step further. My nerd type divers are a lot better divers after their training with me than those jock types. They can dive circles around them and I am proud to have been the one who brought them to that level of diving excellence. They all did it themselves. I just guided them. These guys are the smartest brains on the planet for Christ sake these are the guys who built the Internet and make software programs that I wonder how they ever thought of all those things. These are the engineers that can make things happen that really matter. Frankly I am in awe of these types and enjoy associating with them a whole lot more than the dead head jocks with quick and perfect motor skills.

For those of you who think I have nothing more to add this couldn't be the furthest from the truth. In my next post I will show you how to put on a 12-16 beginning diver open water course that produces highly skilled divers.
Should I continue?

Guillermo

October 17th, 2001, 11:52 PM

As someone new to SCUBA and just joined Scubaboard, I read the whole thread with great interest and would like to comment on some isues:

Basically, Captain Daves aproach, from the positive side, boils down to:

1.- niche market to affluent customers
2.- Loyalty to dive shop through a commercial relationship
3.- Work on a continuos loyalty customer base to maintain and increase revenue stream
4.- Make it a lot of fun with a lot preparation, exotic locales, and present it as a bundled offer (all-encompassing)
5.- Be always prepared to avoid and rapidly resolve any little intereference on making it a lot of fun

(1) can be done. There are customers who do not care how much they pay, and also it has to do with the perception of the value of the offering, not the real value. However, there are very important hurdles to muster: it is difficult to attract them and direct mailings might not be the best way (response rates are very low), and it takes a lot of time to build the clientele.

(2) this is interesting, however, most people would want an unbiased opinion but a compromise might be arranged without ever putting anyone at risk nor selling low-qualilty gear.

(3) this is the big issue. this is customer service, this is relationship, this is upgrading and cross-selling, this takes a lot of effort, a lot of attention to details, and be able to take the plunge once in a while to keep a customer satisfied. Everyone in business knows this needs to be done, only very few do it right.

(4) cool, I see a lot of people wanting something like this, having slides, having videos, having a complete diving experience

(5) very important to keep everyone happy and not make fuss of little things that can go wrong, and turn it into positives.

I think these things that Captain Dave has raise are very interesting. Too bad that some other ideas do not seem to have too much business sense and raises some ethical questions. But then again, no business plan is perfect.

But the major hurdle was capt. dave's presentations skills. Capt. Dave wanted to sell his idea of making a good living out of this; but managed to put everyone in the defensive, did not present his ideas in an orderly fashion and basically lost his audience discussing petty details for the lack of an appropriate framework and delivery.

Just my 2 cents,

Guillermo

Manogr

October 18th, 2001, 08:43 AM

I read the whole thread and keep the best ideas from everybody.

I am a person that tries to get the best of everyone and I believe that every view can be rewarding for an individual...

:bolt: Since Captain Dave started this thread and is the main person of discussion here I think that he should prove his legitimacy !! He should prove that he is doing all that he describes and answer some questions raised before !

CaptainDave.....Do that now and give us photographs from your organized adventures, seminars etc etc That way you can prove that you practicing what are you talking about.
Moreover you should answer the question of WHY are you sharing those "secrets" with us ? You will ask for money later to reveal more or you just want to create a name in the boards ?

Do that now, prove to us that you are really doing all those and keep up the thread...it is interesting...

Manogr from :sunny: Greece

Natasha

October 18th, 2001, 11:45 AM

I also have been following this thread. I have to say I haven't learned one thing. Nope not one.
I guess if I had to say I got anything at all out of this, it is that people write they way they talk in real life. I bet you must put people down in real life also. You seem to talk down to everyone, and are fast to criticize. I don't know how you can be successful with this way of working.
I make money selling scuba trips. I have been in business for 9 years. I was just wondering if you're a member of Dema, Clia, Icta, or Iatan? I am a member of all of them. Do you carry a million dollar insurance policy, like I do to sell travel? Oh I'm sure you carry it to certify divers, but do you have it to sell travel? If not, you will be sorry one day. The waivers you have people sign are very hard to hold up in court. Several things need to be done, such as have a witness sign them and date them. And if there is any stress when the diver signing them does, the judge will throw them out. You better have insurance to back yourself up, or the 100,000 a year you are making will be gone fast.
Also I was wondering.. how can you be on line and post so much, over a post a day, according to your stats, and still make so much money? I post a post a day also, but I personally don't make 100,000 a year.
Oh don't mind me, I'm just a travel agent. And on page 6 I think it was, you put down travel agents and said we are "Notoriously terrible".
:sunny:

syruss32

October 18th, 2001, 12:26 PM

Come on Natasha, this could be his slow year. Maybe he has spent more time on delusions of grandeur than actually performing.

I think he has avoided answering many questions because he doesn't have the answers. I think he is getting this info from somewhere else and is spewing it as his own.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me he gets a might tad upset when anyone questions his motive or for details.

Which is why I suspect what I say above.

And I reiterate that there are several good ideas woven into his posts between idiots, morons and communists that I would certainly think could be beneficial if I was to take the route that lead me to be an Instructor.

So I anxiously await the next verbal thrashing or subtle hints to our collective ineptitude.

NJDiver_34

October 18th, 2001, 12:55 PM

Personally I think Captdave should continue!! If for nothing else I think this thread has provided some interesting thoughts on the dive industry. Sometimes you have to spit out the bones when your eating fish!!

NJDiver_34

joewr

October 18th, 2001, 02:20 PM

Natasha,

The actual quote was "notoriously tearable", i.e., they can be torn easily. So, we might say for, e.g., "I easily tore my travel agent," or, using the p.p., " I have easily torn my travel agent."

Joewr...wondering, "What the h_ll am I doing here?

syruss32

October 18th, 2001, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by joewr
Natasha,

The actual quote was "notoriously tearable", i.e., they can be torn easily. So, we might say for, e.g., "I easily tore my travel agent," or, using the p.p., " I have easily torn my travel agent."

Joewr...wondering, "What the h_ll am I doing here?

Yep it's pretty plain to see you have missed your last few Deco stops....

joewr

October 18th, 2001, 04:11 PM

Syruss,

What do you think happens when you dive this thread? You just have to get out before it gets you...hence, you sometimes miss the stop...........

Joewr...who thought "deco" meant decolatage and brought some paste, magazines.on a dive...and used his dive knife to decorate a tank during a recent deco stop.

Duca

October 18th, 2001, 08:33 PM

Whaddayasay Cap... are you ready yet to answer any of my questions? I see that others are coming out of the woodwork to request some of the proof in your pudding.
:nono:
From your last "lesson," I gleaned that I'm supposed to commit crimes to make money in scuba ("steel" (nice speeling, BTW) client lists and tamper with databases). That's not a competitor, that's a crook. I guess you think olympic atheletes should try to trip thier opponents during competition?
Does your advanced course suggest entangling other instructors teaching students in your area?

(still) Can't wait to see any of the following:

Pictures, testimonials, links to your "other" website, etc, etc.

ScubaBurt

October 18th, 2001, 10:23 PM

Well, I sure am glad I fell into this thread. Captain Dave sounds like a true X theory Instructor/Manager. For those who may not recognize this theory of management, it basically says: �Do as I say, don�t do as I do�. I don�t know about the rest of you, but I depend on my dive masters/crew, travel agents, and dive instructors for the many services they provide. I want them to make me feel that I am important to them/their business and they would like to have me back as a return customer. Sometimes it is not totally the product making the profit for a business or getting that return business, it usually has a lot to do with the positive attitude, service to the customer, professionalism and natural karma. Lacking any of these attributes may allow that competitor to get some or all of your business. The worst advertisement you can receive is from the customer you pissed off with your arrogant and condescending attitude. After reading the replies from the members of the board, I think Captain Dave�s value, as a respected member and dive operation, have dropped considerably. If that happens with board members who only know him by what he writes, just think about the divers that have met him in person. Good Luck Captain Dave, I think you will need it.
Burt

captdave

October 18th, 2001, 10:51 PM

:mean:
The Challenge

Sorry I was absent today, as I do have to make a living. I also wanted for all of the rankers to get there post in so I could give you all a good bashing before going ahead. I think I will do the necessary bashing at the end of this message with a verbal walk the plank but I want you to read what I have to say first before we get to the fun bashing stuff.

The Challenge is simple.
I will take any board member who is a scuba instructor and personally mentor and guide them through their first high-end scuba seminar. Then you will see how easy this is and that it does work. I want instructors who have an open mind and who think the idea is a good one not someone out to try and prove it wrong. I want instructors who want to make it happen for them. All I ask is that the instructors who wish to partake in this adventure be from different states as we do not want to compete with one another and further that any of the scuba equipment that is purchased is purchased and supplied by my company loyally. I also want them to agree to post honest progress reports to the scuba board about their activities without giving certain proprietary information that I will reveal to them only as well as agree to sign a contract agreeing not to divulge this proprietary information.

The following are board members that I would just throw off my boat rather than letting them off at the next harbor you all receive the Walk the Plank award for being just plain dumb:

Guillermo had a nice post regarding the actual business aspects of what I have been talking about. It reminded me of those guys who try to tell you how to program you VCR but nobody knows what they are talking about. I think they call them technical writers. You know the ones you have to translate into real English to figure out what they said. I already translated it for you but if you want the big vocabulary just reread his post. Plus he really missed the boat in regards to the marketing of this plan. I never once state that direct mail was mailing out sales literature. I guess he can�t read either. He further stated that I lost the Audience. Well if this is so why have over 2000 hits to the thread happened. SO Guillermo good try but you get thrown off the boat.

Natashia the travel agent claims she didn�t learn anything and was upset at the bashing I gave travel agents as She is one of them and probably does a good job. Well folks this just is not going to work with this plan. If you remember an earlier post where I told you I booked a resort that was surrounded by a fuel depot. Well it was my lesson about travel agents. I relied on one to book this for me and you all see what I got. You have to go to the destination yourself and scout out your exotic dive spot and figure all of the logistics. If you listen to a travel agent you will end up in the middle of a fuel depot. They do a great job getting you to grandmas� house during thanksgiving. But I assure you when your booking an air plane for 10-15 people you can get a better price than any agent can get and I will show you how and you can get a resort price a whole lot better. Remember they are not scuba people. The reason most of them become travel agents is they love to travel and this way they can get there FAM Trips. This is a neat way of going traveling for almost free. They could care less about your career they only want there little commission and a chance to travel cheap or free. Stay away from them. Natashia gets thrown off the boat as well with a Walk the plank award.

Joewr and Syrus have nothing better to ad than I spelled a word wrong. Come on guys you can do better than this. You both get the Walk the plank award. Get off my boat.

TANSTAAFL=
Their Ain�t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

END OF THREAD

joewr

October 19th, 2001, 12:12 AM

CD(a good name for someone who goes round and round and gets nowhere),

I was using "irony" defined by Webster as, inter alia:

... a pretense ... to make other's false conceptions conspicuous...

But, it probably went over your head...

And since you do not want the desparately needed spelling, grammar, or finance lessions, I will walk the plank. Do I get to do it with my dive gear on? Please!

Joewr...sad and dejected...but, at least, I have Syruss for company...Wait! Is this one of CD's tricks? Hmmmmmmmmm

Duca

October 19th, 2001, 03:00 AM

I resent the fact that I would not be instantly thrown off your boat.

:whoa:

rstone

October 19th, 2001, 07:28 AM

I have been reading this thread before dave moved it here and while I believe there is alot what instructors call critical attributes missing in his plan, it is interesting none the least, and if i had the money id consider some of his ideas.

I find it hard to believe everyone who is a instructor doesnt care about how much they get paid.. Maybe when your new its the greatest profession on earth with all the glamor and excitement of being underwater and getting paid to do it, but then you realize you need money just like everyone else.. and dont tell me you dont ALL work because you just LOVE your jobs sooooo much. I know for a fact if you were not getting paid you would of quit a long time ago. Just because we are instructors doesnt mean we shouldnt get paid what we deserve. We are extremelly under paid for the amount of work we do which can be as low as $1.25 per student per hour.. which isnt crap... I could make more money at mc donalds, however there are some jobs i refuse to do. To say someone is in it for the money IS DAMN STRAIGHT, are you going to pay my bills? should i certify you for free because i love scuba?? geez people you make me sick. THIS IS A JOB AND A PROFESSION for some of US and we want to get paid as much as we can! dont we all?

As for attitudes.. i dont care for some of daves.. but maybe all you should read these post again.. most of you have a bad attitude to!. It makes me sick to read it, you attack dave for posting his ideas, then you insult them, then daves response is to defend himself then you attack him for responding.. geez.. grow up people!. As they say.. if you dont have anything nice to say.. dont say it at all!!!.

On another note.. and im directing this to Natashia... yes instructors are required to carry one million dollars in insurance, and legal fees are included free. Those PADI waivers are as good as gold as long as you followed standards. V&B employs about 28 lawyers ready to defend PADI at all cost. There has been many cases, with most of them being thrown out due to the paperwork the person signed or filled out.. You are right if they are signed under stress they wont hold much weight for the dive operation or boat or instructor. However if you screwed up... your on your own.. good luck.. because you will need it. You know natashia you may be a excellent travel agent if thats what you do, but the fact of the matter is most travel agents dont know how to do there job. They constantly call the airlines to book seats when they have a computer in front of them, and ask the airlines to book seats that dont exist, because they think airline reservation agents can book seats that dont exist i guess, then they expect a airline reservation agent to do all the work and yet still expect to get there commission. If you wondering how i know this... lets just say i can travel for 10% of a fare on standby.

enough said.. your all making me sick...

syruss32

October 19th, 2001, 08:23 AM

I love the CD reference! Classic Joewr for sure!

CaptDave why would you throw me off the boat? Just because I think you are full of bologna? And the reality you could have just eaten lunch and all this BS you claim is your ideas is jst a little gas coming up in the form of text...

I can honestly say if I get thrown off with Guillermo, Natasha and joewr, we'll make a go of it and have a good dive!

So now back to hand any proof?

OH thats right you will accept pupils (aka people willing to do nothing but blindly sell stuff sold from your shop) and teach them the ways of the Force!

What you neglected to mention and I am sure this has slipped your mind is that these pupils will need to buy gear that is "100% CD Certified and Sold" in order to even learn from you.

Hot damn where to do I sign up for this $1500 free course.

Question if my tank is brushed aluminum do I have to buy one that is from your shop and has a picture of you embossed on it too?

ScubaBaby

October 19th, 2001, 09:23 AM

that I am not an Instructor and live in the UK. If i fitted the requirements I'd be happy to join CD to try this out. But....I'm only training to be a DM and I live in the UK.....typical!!

Anyone else willing to give it a go who is more accessible to CD with the requirements ? (Only people who are strong swimmers without dive gear need apply.....CD seems a tad enthusastic about throwing people over board!!!)

Natasha

October 19th, 2001, 09:43 AM

Dave,
Don't worry, I know I do a good job. I couldn't be in my own business for 9 years with 60% of my business, repeat business, if I wasn't doing a good job. However I do know travel agents that don't know anything about selling Dive Travel.
I am a certified Dive Travel Specialist according to DEMA and ICTA. I have gone through their classes and been to the "exotic dive spots" in order to help people.
As for the insurance that was brought up. please re read what I wrote. I said insurance to sell Travel, not insurance to certify divers. Two different things, sorry.
Dave was talking about selling travel to his new 'want to be certified divers'. He needs insurance to sell travel.
:sunny:

syruss32

October 19th, 2001, 09:50 AM

Natasha his reponse is still above. It is down toward the bottom of his last long winded post.

Zagnut

October 19th, 2001, 10:12 AM

Rstone,

I don't think anyone is saying instructors shouldn't be paid well, and of course instructors, like anyone else, want to make all they can. More power to them. As far as Captdave defending himself, he was the one who started flinging insults. It's just that those posts were deleted. Aren't you flinging insults as well. I thought you said if someone didn't have anything nice to say, they shouldn't say anything at all. Does your advice not apply to you, just to everyone else? Although, I would agree with you in that, criticizing spelling errors and things of that nature does seem nitpicky and irrelevant. Captdave has had a couple of really good and innovative ideas. I liked the video idea and especially the corporate approach. Those are things that many instructors may not have thought of. Really good ideas. Most of the rest are not new or innovative. They are things that any one with any common sense could come up with or things that others feel aren't necessarily sound business ideas, which is fine for this post. It's just not groundbreaking, and I'm not so sure they would earn you $100,000 a year. As for you slamming travel agents, it's great you can get a D2 or D3 seat on a plane. Perhaps you have a spouse or relative that works for an airline. Thats a great thing to have access to. I flew to Belize for $60 a seat, but not everybody has access to that kind of deal, so they use travel agents. In an earlier post Captdave mentioned arranging the resort and airfare for his students for around $3,000 or something like that. This, in effect, makes him a travel agent, and an expensive one at that. You slammed travel agents, so you were indirectly slamming Captdave too.

ScubaBaby

October 19th, 2001, 04:57 PM

CaptDave

On more of a side note, could you explain why you have such a low opinion of dive masters that havent been trained under your wing??

I understand your a Master Instructor for PADI, surely that means you work under PADI standards along with a very proportion of other dive centres....so whats different about the way they learn with you? Surely you are obligated to teach DiveMasters they way they are set down by PADI so there shouldnt be that much difference between dive centres?

Fair enough that you train them for far longer than some - you do more of an appreticeship for them. But surely after they have done the standard PADI DM you could still employ them and build upon their knowledge further?

rstone

October 19th, 2001, 05:29 PM

No i was not insulting anyone.. just stating a known fact. There is a difference. As for captdave.. i dont consider him a travel agent anymore then i consider myself to be when we i arrange for a class dive trip to the keys for our store. I think there is a difference. A travel agent is someone who does that as there primary business and profession in my opinion.

Heads Up

October 19th, 2001, 05:32 PM

A travel agent is someone who arranges travel, accomodation etc for a person or group of people who pay for it (non-legal definition but there you go). Whether you regard yourself as a travel agent is immaterial. Be careful as you could leave yourself wide open to litigation!

Natasha

October 19th, 2001, 05:37 PM

Thanks Jay. I agree with you 100%.
But don't mind me, or anything I say, I'm only a " Notoriously Terrible" travel agent. And one that has been thrown over board on top of it!
:sunny:
PS. I love this thread. I wish no one would have to edit it anymore.

ScubaBaby

October 19th, 2001, 05:40 PM

Oxford English Dictionary:
Travel: go from one place to another; journey along or through; travelling
Agent: a person who does something esp. on behalf of another; thing producing an effect

Combine : a person who organising another to go from one place to another.

Its not whether you think you work as or "like" a travel agent, its the customers. If I went away on holiday and it was organised by you, I would see you as my travel agent. The agent who assisted in my travelling!

Heads Up

October 19th, 2001, 05:41 PM

The waters warm, we have GREAT company, the viz is excellent - lets dive!

rstone

October 19th, 2001, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by ScubaBaby
Oxford English Dictionary:
Travel: go from one place to another; journey along or through; travelling
Agent: a person who does something esp. on behalf of another; thing producing an effect

Combine : a person who organising another to go from one place to another.

Its not whether you think you work as or "like" a travel agent, its the customers. If I went away on holiday and it was organised by you, I would see you as my travel agent. The agent who assisted in my travelling!

in�struc�tor (n-strktr)
n.
One who instructs; a teacher.

If i used a dictionary to state what a instructor is.. then anyone who decided to try to teach a friend to scuba would be considered a instructor... im sorry that doesnt hold water with me :rolleyes:

Natasha

October 19th, 2001, 05:50 PM

Jay,
You look good in that skin. And that mask is a turn on, babe. ;)
Abby, you haven't been thrown over board yet, and I so wanted to dive with you someday. Maybe that last post will get you in here with us!
:sunny:

rstone

October 19th, 2001, 05:53 PM

Also one other side note.. unless you have a IATA number.. your not a travel agent. Just as if you dont have a instructor card / number your not a instructor.

ScubaBaby

October 19th, 2001, 05:54 PM

Natasha
If my last post gets me thrown in as well....I'll know I'm with the right people I want to be diving with! Cause I dont think anyone should be "thrown in" as this is an open-forum and people have to expect peoples honest opinions!

Anyway, I'll be jumping in soon....think I'm starting to burn on the boat! ;)

Heads Up

October 19th, 2001, 05:54 PM

I have a friend who is currently doing 5 years for supplying class A narcotics. His defence was that he wasn't a drug dealer, but was helping out a few mates on the night.

Unfortunately, the law WILL take literal definitions whether you like it or not.

And lets not get into a side thread as to whether he deserved it or not - I just use it as an example.

ScubaBaby

October 19th, 2001, 05:56 PM

rstone

I've only just noticed the tone in your posts....they seem quite sharp. I am very sorry if you feel we're being rude.

This is a forum where people get on and we tell things how we feel about them. I hope we havent offended you in anyway.

Again, my apologies for any harm caused!

rstone

October 19th, 2001, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by Heads Up
I have a friend who is currently doing 5 years for supplying class A narcotics. His defence was that he wasn't a drug dealer, but was helping out a few mates on the night.

Unfortunately, the law WILL take literal definitions whether you like it or not.

And lets do get into a side thread as to whether he deserved it or not - I just use it as an example.

The law may like to take literal definitions, but thats why there is case law to prevent the law from being to literal. As there is the law as its written, and the intent of the law. And yes I took criminal law and am certified reserve police officer and if i wanted to know more about the law id just ask my brother whos a DA. ;)

Heads Up

October 19th, 2001, 05:59 PM

... if I set up shop calling myself a Travel Agent but did not register under the IATA, I am immune from prosecution? I think not

ScubaBaby

October 19th, 2001, 05:59 PM

Men and women, and those not specified....

I think we are loosing touch of this thread now. Lets not drift into our own here....its important to stick to the topic - esp. on a thread of this length.

I think now its just getting into a he said, she said situation which will get us nowhere.

rstone

October 19th, 2001, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by Heads Up
... if I set up shop calling myself a Travel Agent but did not register under the IATA, I am immune from prosecution? I think not

I never said that.. as you should know.. anyone can be sued for anything.. then its up to the DA to decide if they have a case and the court to decide if its a friviously filed lawsuit or not.

Headsup.. just drop it.. i didnt come here to get in a legal debate with you..

Heads Up

October 19th, 2001, 06:05 PM

All I was saying is that you COULD be deemed liable. Of course, I live in the UK and the law is different so no offence meant and thanks for your side!!;)

Natasha

October 19th, 2001, 06:08 PM

Abby is right. We're geting off the subject. Let's all continue to learn how to make $100,000 as a scuba instructor.
But by the way, you can sell travel without an IATAN number. Several of my friends sell travel using only a CLIA number. But anyone can sell it without either number. They would just be buying travel from an " uncertified" travel agent. This is done everyday, if instructors are selling travel that aren't certified travel agents..
:sunny:

rstone

October 19th, 2001, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by Natasha
This is done everyday, if instructors are selling travel that aren't certified travel agents..
:sunny:

Exactly.

Natasha

October 19th, 2001, 06:35 PM

Well, I really want to get back to the subject, but that just doesn't seem possible at the moment. I don't want to split this thread. So one last thing.. I'll get the last word ..on travel agents ..only fair don't you think? And if you want to start a whole new thread on travel agents, 'Who can sell travel and who can't' we can do that. But lets get back to Dave and his money making ways $$$$$$ OK?
The last word, on travel agents for THIS thread.
Buying travel from an uncertified travel agent is equal to buying scuba from an uncertified instructor. No difference. Sorry. It can be done, but you're really not protected are you?

Duca

October 19th, 2001, 11:49 PM

I can't believe I'm going this far off topic (..and not addressing the great CD himself...), but:

Rstone,

How many civil lawsuits has your brother the DA worked on?
I know I'm only a full time cop, not a reserve with familiy ties, but I've only known DA's to work on criminal cases. ;)

Belushi

October 20th, 2001, 12:04 AM

It is illegal for an instructor to organise two parts of a holiday( Diving & flights) in the UK, (for financial gain)as he is not a IATA travel agent.

rstone

October 20th, 2001, 04:33 AM

Duca did you really need to ask that question?? As im sure your aware.. they teach more then just criminal law at law school.

Manogr

October 20th, 2001, 05:28 AM

As a professional travel agent working in family owned IATA travel agency (founded in 1970 !) I am really sad when I hear generalizations about travel agents ! I know that there are bad travel agents as there are bad diving instructors, bad salespeople and bad bartenders :)...But the vast majority of us are really knowledgeable professionals that care about quality, customer satisfaction and safety !
And CD..we travel a lot less than you imagine because we don't have the time to do so !! We send others to travel and we stay in front of a SABRE system (or other :) and between our paperwork...

Ok..now that i boost my ego again :) I am ready to get back to the original point of this thread :mean:

Manogr from still :sunny: Greece

CheeseWhiz

October 20th, 2001, 10:17 AM

Boy, am I ever glad I found this thread! This is better than Saturday morning cartoons.

A brief comment to those who maintain that the spelling and grammatical mistakes on posts are no big deal: IMHO, English is a reasonably precise language; use it well and you can easily get your point across and indeed even persuade people of the merits of your argument. Use it poorly and, at best, you will make no converts, and at worst, completely confuse everyone because you have said something you didn't mean to say. For example, there is a big difference between the words "there", "their" and "they're." Same goes for "to" and "too." If you don't know and use these differences you wind up either stringing together a lot of words which don't mean anything or appearing as if all those years in 5th grade didn't pay off.

Sometimes these mis-usages are simply the result of "fat fingers." Taking a few seconds to review what you've typed before hitting the "Submit Reply" button can be a big help.

As for CD's definition of a competitor, maybe I've lead a sheltered life: aren't there laws against sabotage, slander, etc? :confused:

Zagnut

October 20th, 2001, 11:01 AM

Actually, I don't think I would consider those misspelled words. I would consider them misused words. I read somewhere that good or bad spelling is a genetic trait and doesn't necessarily reflect a persons intelligence. There are alot of people out there who are quite intelligent, but are not good spellers. However, poor use of grammar is quite another thing. It has probably been years since most of us have had a class in grammar and we hear the language being butchered and bastardized every day. It makes it easy to forget all the rules and regulations of speaking without constant review, so we should all be cut a little slack. . . Where's Joewr when you need him?.. I believe he's an English language authority. ;)

But, of course, this is ENTIRELY off the track of this thread...(was that supposed to be a semicolon after the but, or just a comma?...I'm going with the comma).

captdave

October 20th, 2001, 11:33 AM

:rolleyes:
Boy oh boy you guys sure do like to visit with each other and talk about saying nothing. Therefore you all get the walk the plank award especially abby as she wants to join the rest of you . First of all put on all your dive gear and make a proper giant stride and get off my boat.
You should all get back to the real subject. Making money as a scuba instructor for capitalist not communists. HA HA.
I have to say so long for a while I have to go on a week long hi end dive trip. This one I only will make $5000.00. So have fun while I am gone . I will look forward to any relevant ideas when I get back so keep to the thread or end it. How do you end a thread anyway?

Zagnut

October 20th, 2001, 03:40 PM

You just quit posting. This thread started saying nothing somewhere around page 5 or 6. We'll miss ya Dave.

striking viking

October 20th, 2001, 05:11 PM

To get right to the point, I have to agree with Zagnut. I realize that I'm now opening myself up to the same criticism CD unknowingly opened himself up to, but it seems that this has turned into a public bashing forum. I can respect the opinions of each and every one of you if it is done to prove a point, or even make a point, but people are now trying to find fault with each and every post--incorrect spelling, hoo cares {sarcasm}. It seems that the indifferences that each of you have is based on your perception of the definition and PERSONAL beliefs. To argue efficiently, we have to agree on what we are arguing about first. If you don't want to try and make money as a dive instructor under CD's process, then don't. If you want to give it a try, go for it. If CD is making a fortune instructing, why don't we congratulate him and wish him well. Is CD going to recieve the thrashing he recieved here with every post he starts or responds to?
There, I said it. Now go ahead and bash me if you feel the need. :argue:

ScubaBaby

October 20th, 2001, 08:39 PM

striking viking

There is a very thin line between bashing people and providing positive critisism. This board is designed for divers to discuss and give both positive and negative feedback.

One problem is sometimes the line between bashing and positive critisism becames a tad too worn, and eventually ends up on the wrong side!!! Most of the time, this is accidental, and has been a misjudgement by the person replying!

I dont think any member of the board has intentionally intended to offend another.

As I have said many a-time before, I find what CD has to say both informative and interesting - even if I dont agree. If I dont agree and have a reason why, then I'd post it....its the way an idea becomes a masterpiece - through discussions and debates to make it perfect!

Overall, I have throughly enjoyed this thread. Not only has it been informative, but its had some pleasant banter - which is all that I believe has ever been intended.

Diving contains many "black-spots" which tend to be the topics that cause tensions...and this is one I didnt believe would be - but its the mixture of divers who do it for money, and divers who do it for fun. Nevertheless, I feel although this thread has had its rough patches, its been handled well and with grace by the majority!!!

Now I am going to apologise cause I didnt intend to make this quite as long as I have - sorry for being boring guys!!

Sara Smiles

October 22nd, 2001, 10:23 PM

Hello,
I JUST GOT DONE READING SO MUCH B.S. I STARTED FALLING ASLEEP AT THE COMPUTER.
DO HAVE AN M.B.A. WANTED TO TEACH SCUBA. LIVE IN A GREAT LOCATION. NOW YOU GUYS COMPLETELY TURNED ME OFF.
A MAJOR HEADACHE FROM READING THE LENGTHY DIALOGUE.
DAVE PROBABLY CAN MADE TONS OF MONEY CATERING TO THE LIFESTYLES OF THE RICH AND FAMOUS, BUT WE ALL CAN.T CATER TO THIS SMALL SECT OF DIVERS. SOMEHOW YOU REMIND ME OF A MOTIVATIONAL SPEAKER OR SOMEONE TRYING TO SELL YOU A
CONDO. SALESPEOPLE DRIVE ME CRAZY, THEY LIKE TO HEAR THEMSELVES TALK. NO OFFENSE. SMILES...

Iguana Don

October 22nd, 2001, 10:46 PM

HEY SMILES, TURN OFF THE CAPS LOCK PLEASE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks

ID

Sara Smiles

October 23rd, 2001, 10:22 AM

HEY, IGUANA --

SOME OF US HAVE VISUAL IMPAIRMENTS. I'M KNOWN AS MRS.
MAGOO. THEY PROBABY DON'T HAVE SPEARGUNS WITH SITES LIKE THE NEW BOWS. DARN..... BUT THAT DOESN'T KEEP A GOOD PREDATOR DOWN.

THANKS FOR THE EXTRA BOLD LESSON. SOME PEOPLE LIKE THINGS BIG.... LETTERS OF COURSE.

SMILES

Butch103

October 23rd, 2001, 10:31 AM

If you are not sure why ID said what he did.........caps mean you are yelling on the internet/e-mail/chat . We don't have to yell here (most of the time) . (Sara Smiles such a nice song BTW)

Scubababy.......................I will agree with you.

People you either agree or disagree with CD and his ideas. Let us not carry on about spelling and law etc. Yes CD is insulting to some, arrogant to others, but some, and I do repeat some of his ideas have merit.

Give him his due, and if you feel slighted by his harsh remarks and rudeness, stay away from the thread.

Butch :Peace:

Video Diver

October 23rd, 2001, 12:37 PM

Quite right. I'd have called it self-aggrandizing {I have to go on a week long hi end dive trip. This one I only will make $5000.00.}, but your descriptions work equally well! I'm very interested to find out if any of the regulars here actually know him and can verify ANY of his claims of his abilities and lifestyle. I remember someone a few pages back asking for his W-2! Ha! A little extreme, but I second the sentiment!

It's good for a laugh and a shake of the head if nothing more...

Cheers,

Bill
Bill@pwrvideo.com
http://www.pwrvideo.com

TwoBitTxn

October 23rd, 2001, 04:57 PM

I posted something similar earlier and I have thought it thru further.

An instructor and a Dive master hook up with a singles organization. They offer a scuba class for 8 students. Preferably 4 male 4 female. That allows for buddy pairs. I work for Plano so I'll use what I have access to. Plano parks and rec has a large public pool and rec center that has meeting rooms. The pool and rooms can be rented for a really reasonable price. The class room and pool work can conceiveably be done in two to three weekends.

I'm not instructor certified so yall correct me if I'm wrong.

Part of the package deal includes doing the OW in Bonair. The instructor can go thru an agent or book the trip him(her)self and skip the shop as a middle man and save $$. The only place the shop comes in is in renting gear. I don't see how the instructor and DM could get rich doing this but I do see how they could get a couple free nice scuba trips a year out of it. That would suit me just fine. Some one else pay for me to go diving in Cayman, or Aruba, or Bonair. I'm in....

Tom

Butch103

October 23rd, 2001, 05:07 PM

you are starting to sound like a CD convert. lol Hmmmm to bad he didn't explain it as easily as you did.

Butch :Peace:

TwoBitTxn

October 23rd, 2001, 06:06 PM

I think,

I wouldn't consider it a convert. I admit its hard to listen to a guy with an ego and attitude like his, but I tend to try to hear everyone out. Sometimes you just gotta cut thru the rock to find the geode inside.

For the record, I still don't think everything he poses would work, and his attitude towards (IMHO) DM's stinks

Tom

Ron Brandt

October 25th, 2001, 12:41 AM

He is quoting verbatiun from the book "How to Make $20,000 a Week Teaching Scuba" . The author of the book did in fact do it and is based in Maui(I think).An ex Dive associate of mine has actually talked to the guy.

As far as hooking up witha dive shop and split profit , well that is why my dive associate is ex. He is also one of the biggest dive shop crooks in western Canada.

Ron

NetDoc

October 25th, 2001, 01:52 AM

I have read all twelve pages of this thread with interest and not a small amount of bemusement. Having worked 15 years for a major automotive company, thirty years total in the automotive field and having very little to show for it, I started to work on my own a couple of years ago as a Network consultant. It HAS been an eye opener, but there are some great points being made here.

1) We all agree (with our employer or clients) to trade our time for nickels. Make sure you get as many nickels as the traffic will bear. I now make a good deal more in only 20 hours a week as I did while working 60+ hour weeks. I truly believe that my clients get more than they pay for! No, I refuse to tell any one how I do it. You would lose all respect for me!

2) Many people love the "all inclusive" package deals. Give it to them and you will be rewarded. Being rewarded is not a bad thing.

3) Making money off of the rich gives me time and resources to give to the not so rich. I give a boatload of time and money to the Boy Scouts of America. I plan on starting a Venture crew this December after I finish my IDC. I do not plan on charging the kids, but I have many of my current clients who would LOVE for me to teach them SCUBA at an �exotic location�. Consequently, I will be �borrowing� from some of the concepts in this thread to make sure I provide a great service to my clients.

4) Your actual attitude about your customers will endear you to them or drive them away. People can sense when you are truly genuine in your dealings with them. They will reward you with loyalty only if you are loyal to them first. Never, EVER compromise your client�s trust in you. Once gone, it is not easily restored. This includes condescension behind closed doors. Only a fool feels he can fool others successfully.

5) Don�t lose the message in the messenger. Arrogant, abusive language will always detract from good ideas. The trick is to discern which ones are right for you (if any), and toss the rest. I have always been able to learn from my harshest critics. Sometimes there are salient messages hidden within their venom. Not all of us will see value in what any particular person has to say. It makes us neither right nor wrong� just different.

6) Good ideas do not need to be proved to be good. That being said, it still takes only one cogent fact to destroy a great theory. Inherent logic and reasoning are sometimes good enough. A person need not justify his actions or beliefs to me. If they do, I see it as a bonus! Not every idea is beneficial, nor can all ideas be bogus. There are always gems in the matrix if you know how to look for them.

This has been one of the �livelier� threads on the board. Yet, the Mod Squad has left it generally intact. Our goal is to not create a homogenous board where we all espouse the same opinions, but rather to provide an open forum that is free from verbal abuse. We got close to that line many times here, and possibly stepped over it once or twenty times. Still, the thrust of these posts were still anchored in an open discussion. That can only be healthy for our board.

Sorry this post was sooooo long; I guess I am starting to sound like Iggy!

:tease: