Recreational Trimix classes

[mannydib]

GUE offers a recreational Trimix course and IANTD has one in the making
i hear you have to have really good bouyancy to work with He since you can get bent easily just going up 15'
how "recreational" can these classes be?

[JeffG]

mannydib once bubbled...
GUE offers a recreational Trimix course and IANTD has one in the making
i hear you have to have really good bouyancy to work with He since you can get bent easily just going up 15'
how "recreational" can these classes be?

Its "recreational" because of the depth limit of 130 and no deco stops are involved.

But if you do not have good bouyancy control, you will not pass.

[Scuba_Vixen]

On this course. It really seems like an excellent course, GUE produces some excellent divers, but it's NOT what would be thought of as recreational in the usual use of the term.

If you look at the 5thD site:

http://www.fifthd.com/itindex.htm

you can find info about it. It's a very extensive class, and you have to have at least 1 GUE cert already. It says you can do it in a single tank setup, but most do doubles. It also says it's a No-Deco class:

"What is Recreational Triox?
5th Dimension is the leading source of instruction for this new GUE course! New for 2003, the Recreational Triox course is a no-decompression class structured to prepare divers for deeper recreational diving using proper breathing mixtures and correct ascent procedures."

From some who have posted reports after taking it; you make stops every 10 feet from half way up after a rolling evaluation pause at 70'...Sounds like a deco stop to me, although this is the GUE wording:

"TriOx introduces effective ascent procedures to accentuate the benefits of the gas mix and associated training."

Basically, it's a "No gas switch" deco.

Considering that taking that class would mean $$ thousands in new gear and course & travel costs for most rec divers... and that's if you can meet the pre-reqs...Unless you plan on going into tech diving... it's just not worth it for a noticeable, but not day/nite scale of reduction in narcosis.

It's really all about where you are, and where you want to go, with your diving future.


Darlene

[100days-a-year]

Perhaps shoot Doc Deco a question about the incidence of HE hits.If you're going to use He,I think a full class would be a better use of the same funds.Rec Triox is not the wave of the future ,not withstanding any claims to the contrary.Very few divers are willing to learn the xtra math ,skills and discipline to use it.Not to mention the expense for a slight reduction in narcosis.Below 100' and dark maybe it would sell,but in typical dive who even considers narcosis an issue.Perhaps as an intermediate tech course I could see it,as it stands nitrox offers far more benefits at less expense.

[DeepScuba]

I agree. Given the depth and time parameters you guys say it has, it's just another card to sell.

Even from GUE you say???

Is that 15' from 130, or 15' from 15'?

[Uncle Pug]

... to a few here in the PNW with our dark, cold limited viz waters.

I like using 30/30 as a recreational mix in my double 72s in the 80'~120' range since I already have the gas and the gear but can't see many recreational folks forking out the extra $$$.

[MechDiver]

DeepScuba once bubbled...
I agree. Given the depth and time parameters you guys say it has, it's just another card to sell.

Even from GUE you say???



However I feel about GUE, one thing they do not do is sell cards. From what little I saw of the triox class, you will work your butt off and "maybe" get the card at the end. You will by no means buy anything...

MD

[ERP]

While I would tend to agree that triox is not the next great thing in diving. It's just too expensive and difficult to find.

The GUE Rec triox course is an excellent course, aswell as the obvious Triox content, it covers a lot of information that is useful for diving in the 100ft range safely. Ascent profiles and at least some basic decompression theory. I'd recomend it to pretty much anyone who's taken fundamentals and has practiced the skills.

My course report is on the board if you search for it.

[DeepScuba]

Hey Mech, my mainpoint was really what ERP and Uncle Pug said. It's of marginal use because of the extra $$$$ involved for the dive being done.

Everything else learned in the class is taught in other class (More than likely, the one's we've already taken) And since there's a pre-requisite to the course (not my words) it's "redundant teaching" to a point.

GUE ain't much different than others. I've heard that mantra too many times from too many other companies.......we do it better.........we are ****, we this, we that.....it's standard see through advertisement....telling me that they don't sell cards isn't much of a comfort. They're plan is to teach (And teach well) students, there goal is to make money. There's nothing wrong with that. Telling me they don't "invent" new ways of making a buck is rediculous, and totally missing the point of business.

They can be very good, fail folks, have high standards, and still sell a dog-and-pony course for Rec divers.

No training is bad training, but is it gotten at too high a price, or is it even warranted at all??

Would you ever do a AOW refresher course? NO you're beyond that. It's not that it's bad training, but it's a waste of time for you.

[MechDiver]

DeepScuba once bubbled...
Hey Mech, my mainpoint was really what ERP and Uncle Pug said. It's of marginal use because of the extra $$$$ involved for the dive being done.

Everything else learned in the class is taught in other class (More than likely, the one's we've already taken) And since there's a pre-requisite to the course (not my words) it's "redundant teaching" to a point.

GUE ain't much different than others. I've heard that mantra too many times from too many other companies.......we do it better.........we are ****, we this, we that.....it's standard see through advertisement....telling me that they don't sell cards isn't much of a comfort. They're plan is to teach (And teach well) students, there goal is to make money. There's nothing wrong with that. Telling me they don't "invent" new ways of making a buck is rediculous, and totally missing the point of business.

They can be very good, fail folks, have high standards, and still sell a dog-and-pony course for Rec divers.

No training is bad training, but is it gotten at too high a price, or is it even warranted at all??

Would you ever do a AOW refresher course? NO you're beyond that. It's not that it's bad training, but it's a waste of time for you.

I agree, sorta, with parts.

I don't think the class is necessary as a 100' mix class because He is too expensive, but I think its a natural progression for those enamored of the GUE style of diving. One problem is the class is misnamed. It's more the GUE Advanced OW/Intro to Tech, but be that as it may.

Sure they're doing it to make money. Nothing wrong with that. But, unlike most AOW classes, I think to the GUE minded divers, this one has value.

MD

[DeepScuba]

I just browsed the course outlines.........

Assuming I was working towards "Tech" from an AOW position, I would probably choose Tech 1 over this one.

It's kinda like TDI Ext Range.........you never have to take it to go from Nitrox to Full Trimix, so why bother?

They are as much as saying you're not going miss anything in between by not taking it.

I would suggest that a Rec diver sort his needs and aspirations out before hand, to determine whether he wants to go "tech" and then spend the money wisely.

One thign I should mention, I may be anti-GUE establishment for their lack of answer to simple quesiotns posed to them, but I am certainly PRO their ideas.......at least 95%

I've said 80% in the past, but really, how do you put a %age point to something you almost entirely agree with.

I suspect that secretly, they'd agree with me that the few points I put forth are of little consequence to the actual diving, and they would agree that my concerns wouldn't be "Deal busters" for them. But of course they wouldn't say it publically!

How could such a stroke be so right????

I'm basically DIR/GUE without the cards.....

[JeffG]

DeepScuba once bubbled...
I just browsed the course outlines.........

Assuming I was working towards "Tech" from an AOW position, I would probably choose Tech 1 over this one.

It's kinda like TDI Ext Range.........you never have to take it to go from Nitrox to Full Trimix, so why bother?

They are as much as saying you're not going miss anything in between by not taking it.

I would suggest that a Rec diver sort his needs and aspirations out before hand, to determine whether he wants to go "tech" and then spend the money wisely.

One thign I should mention, I may be anti-GUE establishment for their lack of answer to simple quesiotns posed to them, but I am certainly PRO their ideas.......at least 95%

I've said 80% in the past, but really, how do you put a %age point to something you almost entirely agree with.

I suspect that secretly, they'd agree with me that the few points I put forth are of little consequence to the actual diving, and they would agree that my concerns wouldn't be "Deal busters" for them. But of course they wouldn't say it publically!

How could such a stroke be so right????

I'm basically DIR/GUE without the cards.....
Well, I was thinking of taking the course next year for the following reason.

An alternative for Nitrox Certification.

I could pay $200 and sit in a class for a couple of hours. Learn the equations,get my 2 coupons for Nitrox or Take the Rec Triox course. Its more expensive, but it sound like there is more too it.

And if I do go "Tech" it would a good stepping stone. (I heard that if you have the Rec triox , you are given "credit" in tech 1)

If I don't go tech, well I'm out some money, but I got some better education.

Jeff

[Uncle Pug]

DeepScuba once bubbled...
It's kinda like TDI Ext Range.........you never have to take it to go from Nitrox to Full Trimix, so why bother?
I would say that if you are just planning on recreational diving the rec triox might be a bit of overkill... unless you have the $$$ and inclination.

However if you are aiming at GUE Tech 1 as an AOW then you should not only hit the DIRf but probably take the unfortunately named rec triox. You will get that much more out of your Tech 1 class.

[MikeFerrara]

As it has been explained to me...

The class is essentially GUE's answer to the AOW class. It's meant to give divers the skills and access to and training in ALL the gasses that GUE feels are useful to depths of 120 ft. The gas isn't the main point of the class. Diving to 120 ft is the point of the class. Since GUE feels helium is a useful gas at those depths the class qualifies you for it as well as nitrox.

So...with this class you skip the standard nitrox, AOW and deep diver courses offered by other agencies.

[DeepScuba]

Personally I'd take the money and use it for air fills and DIVE. Practice skills you should already know. Then you wouldn't need to have the cards for any other reason than to buy Nitrox/Mix fills.

This is tabboo to say, but reality is, with the right amount of good information from good organizations, almost all gotten for free, I might add, you could easily learn to do Tech diving with no courses, just by diving, practicing, diving, practicing....you'd no doubt also come across many many great divers to learn from too. You would be diving with them, (Unless they're DIR!!! YOU STROKE) hahahah, and you would learn from them as well.

It's no different than saying that because you have the card, you're qualified.....not neccessarily.

FLAMERS ON......


:spank:

:flame:

[JeffG]

DeepScuba once bubbled...
Personally I'd take the money and use it for air fills and DIVE. Practice skills you should already know. Then you wouldn't need to have the cards for any other reason than to buy Nitrox/Mix fills.

This is tabboo to say, but reality is, with the right amount of good information from good organizations, almost all gotten for free, I might add, you could easily learn to do Tech diving with no courses, just by diving, practicing, diving, practicing....you'd no doubt also come across many many great divers to learn from too. You would be diving with them, (Unless they're DIR!!! YOU STROKE) hahahah, and you would learn from them as well.

It's no different than saying that because you have the card, you're qualified.....not neccessarily.

FLAMERS ON......


:spank:

:flame:
Well sometimes you need a card to get "exotic" gas :) and I can afford the class and air fills, so that is a non-issue.

[Uncle Pug]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
So...with this class you skip the standard nitrox, AOW and deep diver courses offered by other agencies.
You can take your PADI AOW class right after your PADI OW... but I don't think you would be ready to take the Rec Triox right after PADI OW.

[MechDiver]

DeepScuba once bubbled...
Personally I'd take the money and use it for air fills and DIVE. Practice skills you should already know. Then you wouldn't need to have the cards for any other reason than to buy Nitrox/Mix fills.



Its apparent you're only argueing for the sake of knocking anything GUE. Although I don't have any great love there, further posts to you are a waste of time.

Saying you can do any kind of diving you want without training is stick your head in the sand dumb, as well as impractical.

[boomx5]

I like to think of the RecTriOx class as a "Tech1 light class". I would say that having taken both the PADI AOW and the RecTriOx class the RecTriOx class is not for newly minted divers. Leading up to the RecTriOx class I trained pretty hard and still found the class extremely challenging. On the other hand when I took my AOW I had taken a 12 year lay-off from diving and was not challenged at all. The hardest part was mustering up the energy to discipline myself to read the stupid book and do the questions in the back.

[lragsac]

DeepScuba once bubbled...
I just browsed the course outlines.........

I would suggest that a Rec diver sort his needs and aspirations out before hand, to determine whether he wants to go "tech" and then spend the money wisely.


This is precisely what the Rec Triox course allows one to do. It gives a recreational diver an opportunity to learn and experience what it will take (at least via GUE training) to go the Tech 1 route. The beauty of it is that, if one decides s/he doesn't want to commit to technical diving and the cost it entails, s/he will still have learned some really valuable skills. I don't regret having put forth the time and effort to take the course. It is an amped up version of DIR-F with added knowledge for deeper diving and diving with a gas other than air. Just my.02 cents.

[DeepScuba]

Before you get too knobby Mech, allow me to REPOST my previous post, in part.......

.........One thing I should mention, I may be anti-GUE establishment for their lack of answer to simple questions posed to them, but I am certainly PRO their ideas.......at least 95%

I've said 80% in the past, but really, how do you put a %age point to something you almost entirely agree with......


Nuff said, I give credit where credit is due. Regardless od whether I "like" somebody or not.



Jeff:

The money isn't the issue with me either, but I'm not going to waste what I have on a course that I PERSONALLY find that it overlaps other required courses that I would do.

If you wanna go "half-tech", then go ahead. It'll only just dent the wallet, and the training won't hurt. Whether it's required to fill a "Hole" is another story.

[DeepScuba]

Mech m'buddy....


.......Saying you can do any kind of diving you want without training is stick your head in the sand dumb, as well as impractical......

I didn't say without training.

I did say a very controversial thing, and 99.999% of people will never do it, but the fact still remains that a well read, well dove diver could learn to do Tech diving by just searching out the pertinent info, practicing in a safe environment, and progressively learn the "trade". You would also be diving, probably, with many weel dove divers that are a very useful piece of experience.

Would I recommend a OW student to do it?? NO, of course not. I'm speaking specifically of "advanced" divers, with a certain amount of experience and knowledge already, with which to build on. They've been around the block and know the score, they know how to dive already!!

Answer to yourself......all you NON-instructors, could you properly teach a person who's never dove before to dive?? Sure you could. It's the same thing, up one or two levels.

It's no different, it just sounds bad.

Tell me you've never done a tabboo because you KNOW you can do it, whether PADI, NAUI, TDI says you can or not.

regards.

[100days-a-year]

Deep,it's "taboo".And all the guess work and trial&error can be skipped by taking the course nowadays.15 yrs ago we had to sneak 02 into a shop to homebrew nitrox and were often way outta line on oxtox issues.Fortunately not one of us got hurt bad altho the chamber at Beaches hospital is a little worn.Yes it can be done .It can be done safely and economically.......by .0001% of the divers I've met.And then you still have a hard time without the certs getting on boats,in caves or getting others to dive with you.

[DeepScuba]

I hear ya, but it ain't guess work anymore. The info is freely had, and it's way better than it was years ago.

I'm talking about already somewhat accomplished (if I can use that term loosly) divers.

Anyways, this is getting off topic of this thread a tad..I know it happens.

To me, and to others it's no different than teaching your spouse, child or whoever about diving, or as Genesis had mentioned in another thread, about Nitrox diving with his G/F.

I give people the credit they deserve for not being complete ignoramises (is that a word?).

The certs, or lack thereof was never my point. My point was simply selling cards for the sake of selling cards, and which ones were redundant, or may I say next to useless.

The good thing is, there's always more to sell, and more and more divers will fill them.

I just think most people have far more smarts for this than anyone gives them credit for. It's diving, your brain can handle the concept, it ain't brain surgery.

How about the people that still believe that tearing down your own regs and doing an overhaul is actually difficult and should be left to the "Pro"?

C'mon guys, gimme a break. Is everyone still diluted enough to believe than without an official looking card, plaque or cert # that you can't do anything?

Anyways, as fun as this is, it's getting off topic, let move it to another thread if anyone gives a crap.....Uhmmmm I don't, really.

Tabboo just seemed right a the time....but yes you're correct of course..taboo......I'm not freaky enough to use that word too often.

I don't use it even 1 day a year :D

I still know guys that are wau outta line on oxtox issues, I ain't gonna push it, 1.6 is the offical nasty line, but I know guys that do 2.*

Oh yeah, they have the cards to prove their sillyness


:wacko:

[MikeFerrara]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...

You can take your PADI AOW class right after your PADI OW... but I don't think you would be ready to take the Rec Triox right after PADI OW.

MHK is the one who phrased it that way. No you can't take it right after OW but you can take it soon after DIRF. GUE doesn't encourage going beyond 100 ft or an average depth of more than 80 ft (I think) untill this point. Neither AOW or nitrox is a prerequisit and it qualifies the student for those gases and depths.

[cornfed]

DeepScuba once bubbled...

Assuming I was working towards "Tech" from an AOW position, I would probably choose Tech 1 over this one.

It's kinda like TDI Ext Range.........you never have to take it to go from Nitrox to Full Trimix, so why bother?


Let's start with your assumption...

There are lot of wrecks near me that are in 100+ ft range. I'm interested in "tech" because I want to spend more then 10 or 15 minutes on them. Now Tech 1 is the level I'd like to be at but I'm not ready for the class. I have a few opinions,
make these dives with (what I consider) inadequate training
rush to meet the prerequisites for the training I want, eg hit the quarry every weekend and fill up my log book
stop making these dives until I receive the training I want
take a class I don't "need" so that I can dive some of the things I'd like and keep working till I'm read for my "real" training.

Wouldn't you agree that taking a class I don't really "need" is the best option?

[DeepScuba]

I'd say simply, you should be taking a course.

Remember, I'm not anti-courses, far from it. I am anti-periferal course that overlap course I either DO have, or SHOULD have if I want to continue further.

For you diver example, he needs to take Nitrox obviously. If all he wants is more time in Rec diving depth limits (That's the scenario laid out to me) then take Nitrox, grab a 32Mix and do 25min at 110ft. Of course he's probably gonna need a large tank if he want's to continue to abide with his rule of thirds and SAC rates. But that again, is OW training (Exept maybe SAC, and any fool can learn that on the internet if he had to. It's only a formula) In fact browse over to the thread "So what's your average SAC rate". We just taught a PADI OWSI how to do it!!!!
He never had to learn it, because as others had mentioned here, it's not required really in Rec diving.

Simple.

Now, as I've said earlier, if he endeavors further, then grab a deco/adv nitrox class. No mess, no fuss, no overlap, no wasted money on other courses.

Do I suggest a PADI wreck course?? or Deep course.......NOPE.
Overlap and a waste...in fact it's an UNDERlap IMO.

If ya wanna go GUE, then they force you to do DIRf before everything (I assume), then either stay there and do nothing, or do Tech1. No mess, no fuss, no overlap.

[JeffG]

DeepScuba once bubbled...
I'd say simply, you should be taking a course.

Remember, I'm not anti-courses, far from it. I am anti-periferal course that overlap course I either DO have, or SHOULD have if I want to continue further.

For you diver example, he needs to take Nitrox obviously. If all he wants is more time in Rec diving depth limits (That's the scenario laid out to me) then take Nitrox, grab a 32Mix and do 25min at 110ft. Of course he's probably gonna need a large tank if he want's to continue to abide with his rule of thirds and SAC rates. But that again, is OW training (Exept maybe SAC, and any fool can learn that on the internet if he had to. It's only a formula) In fact browse over to the thread "So what's your average SAC rate". We just taught a PADI OWSI how to do it!!!!
He never had to learn it, because as others had mentioned here, it's not required really in Rec diving.

Simple.

Now, as I've said earlier, if he endeavors further, then grab a deco/adv nitrox class. No mess, no fuss, no overlap, no wasted money on other courses.

Do I suggest a PADI wreck course?? or Deep course.......NOPE.
Overlap and a waste...in fact it's an UNDERlap IMO.

If ya wanna go GUE, then they force you to do DIRf before everything (I assume), then either stay there and do nothing, or do Tech1. No mess, no fuss, no overlap.

And I would agree that a person should not have to duplicate training, but (in my case) a diver without nitrox and unsure whether or not they are going to go the full tech, I think the class would be a good fit.

(If the diver goes Tech, the Rec Triox is Part 1 of the Tech 1 Class (Format 2, according to FithD's web site))


Jeff

[cornfed]

JeffG once bubbled...


And I would agree that a person should not have to duplicate training, but (in my case) a diver without nitrox and unsure whether or not they are going to go the full tech, I think the class would be a good fit.


Jeff,
The simple fact that this is a GUE class means that many people will immediately dismiss it.

[DeepScuba]

It would also clear things up easier if you decided to go GUE or TDI or whatever first, as well.

[cornfed]

DeepScuba once bubbled...
It would also clear things up easier if you decided to go GUE or TDI or whatever first, as well.

Please explain...

[DeepScuba]

It makes deciding the path to take easier. There wouldn't be much sense in taking TDI Nitrox, and then doing GUE for the rest....just take GUE from the get go.........or vise-versa.

Since I'm a TDI guy, I wouldn't take any GUE classes, as most of it is overlap, or it's stuff I already know, whether from courses or not.

From there it's diving, practicing, diving........

How many times can someone SHOW you how to, say, blow a bag?? From then on, you just have to do it and do it and do it.


Come to think of it, pracitice has been a while, it's time for my in-water skill check.

[cornfed]

DeepScuba once bubbled...
It makes deciding the path to take easier. There wouldn't be much sense in taking TDI Nitrox, and then doing GUE for the rest....just take GUE from the get go.........or vise-versa.

Since I'm a TDI guy, I wouldn't take any GUE classes, as most of it is overlap, or it's stuff I already know, whether from courses or not.

From there it's diving, practicing, diving........

How many times can someone SHOW you how to, say, blow a bag?? From then on, you just have to do it and do it and do it.


No one in this thread is advocating taking overlapping or repetative courses. Why do you keep harping on this?

[JeffG]

cornfed once bubbled...


No one in this thread is advocating taking overlapping or repetative courses. Why do you keep harping on this?

Because its fun :). OK Really, he does have a point that (assuming you like the instruction you are receiving) that your better off staying with the same cert agency for your training to avoid duplication.

[DeepScuba]

You said explain!!!!

So I did!!!

In fact my only point was to this Rec-triox course, that it's overlapping other existing course....or more correctly UNDERlapping.

That was all!

Just like TDI Ext Range.

Selling a course/card for the sake of $$$$. O sure, the course "desription" will paint a different picture for sure, but it's underlapping.

That's all!

Please, don't ask me to explain, and then pee-pee on me for explaining.

You gave me this hypothetical diver situation!

[cornfed]

DeepScuba once bubbled...
You said explain!!!!

So I did!!!

In fact my only point was to this Rec-triox course, that it's overlapping other existing course....


Which isn't a valid point.



Please, don't ask me to explain, and then pee-pee on me for explaining.


So it's my fault you didn't explain your position to my satisfaction?



You gave me this hypothetical diver situation!

To which you said that the individual in question should seek out the bare minimum of training necessary. You went on to say that if they want more training, they should (assuming they want GUE training) take Tech 1 and skip the "overlap" between it and Rec Triox. Are you even aware of relationship between Rec Triox and Tech 1?

Like I said, it's not my fault you can't explain your position.

[ERP]

DeepScuba,

Other than Tech 1 which requires considerably more experience than Rec Triox, what exactly is it underlapping?

As I understand it the step from the current DIRF to Tech 1 is huge. This might not have been so with the old style DIRF (quite honestly I don't know), I'm not sure that providing a course to fill in some of the blanks without requiring you to become a proficient technical diver is a bad thing.

I went into Triox with no short term intention to become a tech diver. In fact I was more interested in the classroom material than the dives. As it happens I was very happy with the course contents on both fronts (classroom and diving). And to put that in persepective I didn't get the card.

I'm not suggesting you take Triox, clearly you believe that you've gotten to the point in your diving where you would get nothing from it. I strongly believe however that there a lot of divers out there who would get a lot out of it.

And just an observation, but for someone who's never taken a GUE class and who's only exposure to the Rectriox course is the course description on a web site, you have an awfull lot to say about it.

[DeepScuba]

Heh Heh Heh

(To m'buddy cornfed)

UNDERlapping (My newest coined phrase...to use it is 10 cent a minute)

Rec_triox Underlaps Tech 1

As in, if'n you's gonna do Tech 1, then don't bother with Rec_Triox

It's really that simple. Anyone interested enough in DIRf will probably go onto Tech 1, or never do another class with GUE again.

As far as the "Class work" is concerned, you can get it for free.............heck, it's all a click away from your current spot on the chair.

It's live, accurate and playing in Stereo.

I have Ba-Zillions of downloaded video of real-life DIR-Dudes telling us all they know.

The rest only comes from YOU diving and training.

[cnidae]

I would definitely take the GUE Triox course. If you ask before hand they will use the Triox course as the first part of Tech 1. I teach TDI classes and after being exposed to GUE's methods I’ve since adopted quite a few of them in my teaching. Any agency’s class for Nitrox does not even come close to the Triox course, it’s well worth the money and much more practicle than any sit around a table nitrox course.

[DeepScuba]

Yabbutt we're not talking TDI Nitrox vs. GUE Rec-Triox

[DeepScuba]

As somebody said about a week ago on this thread, 99.99% of people wouldn't bother using Tri on 100-130ft dives.

Sure you could, but nobody would spend the money. Really, they wouldn't.

A 200ft dive cost me $75.00 CDN including deco gas. so what's that, about $55.oo USD.

Can you imagine spend something slightly less than that (for a shallower depth) on a recreational dive?? Sure, since you wouldn't be doing deco, it WOULD be a fair bit less, but ain't no one ante-ing in on this one.

The risk-reward factor at 100ft isn't worth the $$$$

Not a chance.

Sure, somebody's gonna be silly and say "what's your life worth", then I'd tell them to hang up their fins forever if they truly believe that on a 110ft dive.

Shoot, you guys are mostly 100ft PLUS vis, and warm warm warm water. 110ft in those conditions is childs play.

I personally give people more credit in the smarts category than that.

Regards.

[wb416]

DeepScuba once bubbled...

[snip]

It's really that simple. Anyone interested enough in DIRf will probably go onto Tech 1, or never do another class with GUE again.
[snip]

There are other options for someone on the GUE track... DIRF to Cave 1... less knowledge intensive than Tech 1 (but not necessary less skill intensive).

A scenario that I could see happening would be for someone with the Cave 1 cert (and content with doing this level of cave diving), might consider the addition of Triox to their toolbox as a good addition for diving Devil's or Little River-type cave systems. Still non-deco type diving (in the traditional deco bottle sense), but provides gases that can increase bottom time, enhance mental clarity at depth, and decrease "work-of-breathing" due to reduced density of helium.

Might be a good addition for someone that likes cave diving, but not interested in the "Tech deco" track....

just my 2 cents,
bob

[RichLockyer]

boomx5 once bubbled...
Leading up to the RecTriOx class I trained pretty hard and still found the class extremely challenging.
So I'd probably fall on my ASCII? :D

[cornfed]

DeepScuba once bubbled...
Shoot, you guys are mostly 100ft PLUS vis, and warm warm warm water. 110ft in those conditions is childs play.


You are so pompous it's unbelievable.

[cornfed]

DeepScuba once bubbled...

Rec_triox Underlaps Tech 1

As in, if'n you's gonna do Tech 1, then don't bother with Rec_Triox
Cute.

You continue to demonstrate your lack of understand of the relationship between these courses. Rec Triox is essentially the first part of Tech 1. You can take Rec Triox then a bridge class to Tech 1. No overlap, no redundancy, no covering material twice. What's wrong with this? Oh, right... "underlapping".

Does TDI's Entry Level Trimix "underlap" their Advanced Trimix? Well according to their website the entry level course
"provides the training required to competenly[sic] and safely utilize breathing gasses containing helium for dives that require staged decompression, utilizing nitrox and/or oxygen mixtures during decompression to a maximum depth of 200fsw/60msw."

Which is interesting because the advanced class
"provides the training required to competenly[sic] and safely utilize breathing gasses containing helium for dives that require staged decompression, utilizing nitrox and/or oxygen mixtures during decompression to a maximum depth of 300fsw/100msw."
According to TDI's official description of the class the only difference is 100fsw/40msw. The descriptions are word-for-word the same until the depth limit -- so much so that they both misspelled competently! It would appear that entry level underlaps advanced, but what do I know I'm just a dumb redneck, right?



It's really that simple. Anyone interested enough in DIRf will probably go onto Tech 1, or never do another class with GUE again.


Oh my god, you really don't get it do you?



As far as the "Class work" is concerned, you can get it for free.............heck, it's all a click away from your current spot on the chair.

It's live, accurate and playing in Stereo.

I have Ba-Zillions of downloaded video of real-life DIR-Dudes telling us all they know.

The rest only comes from YOU diving and training.

This is equivalent to saying you don't need to go to college because you can get a public library card for free.

This argument has nothing to do with what information is available. You're simply a pugnacious twit that can't manage to string together a coherent criticism.

Cornfed

[DeepScuba]

Uhmmmmmm, whatever, m'buddy cornfed,

This Pony's run it course.

Probably not the answer you're looking for, but sorry, that's all you're gonna get today.

One thing I wil say, is that you have made my point exactly RE TDI levels of Trimix.

Definately underlapping (you owe me 20 cents), which is exactly why I wouldn't take both.

[MHK]

Let me see if I can shed some light behind our intention(s) of the GUE Triox program..

The underlying spirit and intention of the class is to fill a void that some of us believe exists in the industry. While for certain the helium content has spurred the curiousity of many, the class is more aligned with what many of us believe should be a true advanced diving class. More often the not, most AOW classes today are an immediate extension of the OW class. Some believe that the OW programs have been diluted significantly so the AOW is the completion of OW training.

A true Advanced diving class should, in my opinion, be about learning proper protocols to dive in the 80' - 120', including proper gas choice, proper team protocols, proper gas management, ascent rate startegies and refining fundamental skills that are often ignored. Against that background we released the Recreational Triox program. I think too many people focus on the helium aspect, whereas we believe that helium is but one small tool in the tool box when you are planning a dive in the 80' - 120' range..

I hope that more fully explains the program, but please let me know if you have any questions..

Regards

[baenglish73]

If there is an official thread for asking questions about DIR philosophy, I apologize.

I was reading the fundamentals book, and if I may refer to Chapter 5 "An Overview of the DIR Equipment Configuration."

GUE "encourages the [process of learning and evolution]"
However, the process of evolution isn't in keeping with the holistic approach of DIR because the system isn't learned as a whole. QUOTE: [This all or nothing view is also relevant to considerations surrounding the equipment configuration itself]

My question is: is it part of DIR philosophy that divers do not evolve their equipment until the entire equipment set is in place?

The reason I ask is quite simply financial. I'm in school, but I'm sure I could get a bit of equipment for b'day and festivus. When I graduate, have money and a job, I think I'd appreciate what GUE offers.

Thanks

[BigJetDriver]

Of course, one can by-pass all of that by getting trained as a mixed-gas CCR diver, and then you will always have the correct gas mix for the job regardless of your depth. You'll save a lot of money on helium as well!;)

[MHK]

baenglish73 once bubbled...
If there is an official thread for asking questions about DIR philosophy, I apologize.

My question is: is it part of DIR philosophy that divers do not evolve their equipment until the entire equipment set is in place?

The reason I ask is quite simply financial. I'm in school, but I'm sure I could get a bit of equipment for b'day and festivus. When I graduate, have money and a job, I think I'd appreciate what GUE offers.

Thanks

I think the best way to answer the question is to say that you don't become DIR overnight, and even if you go out and buy every single piece of gear that we recommend it still doesn't make you DIR. It's a process that takes a while, and as such as your financial position allows you can start accumulating the proper equipment.

Hope that helps, but feel free to ask..

Later

[RichLockyer]

MHK once bubbled...
I think the best way to answer the question is to say that you don't become DIR overnight, and even if you go out and buy every single piece of gear that we recommend it still doesn't make you DIR. It's a process that takes a while, and as such as your financial position allows you can start accumulating the proper equipment.
Likewise, slapping a poodle jacket on your back with split fins and a UK-D8 light would not make you a stroke... it would just make you a very inefficient DIR diver.

[chrisch]

The original post was about the IANTD and GUE Courses. As I understand it the IANTD stuff was to be launched at DEMA. As this has now finished has anyone got a view on their course as opposed to the usual DIR debate?
I would like to do the IANTD Advanced REC TMX as (I believe) it is a 45m (150 fsw) course.

Chris

[BigJetDriver]

Chris,

You would do well choosing the IANTD course. Tom Mount, the founding father of IANTD, is one of the pre-eminent members of the founders of our technical diving sport. He does not allow either his courses or his instructors to stray from the mark of excellence.:D

[sasdasdaf]

Was that meant as a joke?

[cornfed]

chrisch once bubbled...
The original post was about the IANTD and GUE Courses. As I understand it the IANTD stuff was to be launched at DEMA. As this has now finished has anyone got a view on their course as opposed to the usual DIR debate?
I would like to do the IANTD Advanced REC TMX as (I believe) it is a 45m (150 fsw) course.

Chris

I emailed IANTD this morning...



Hello Drew.
Yes, IANTD now offers a Recreational and Advanced Recreational Trimix Diver
course. The details are included in the new standards, and manuals are
available for the course now. To take the course, a diver need only be
certified as an Advanced Open Water diver or as a Nitrox Diver. Advanced
Recreational Trimix is designed to be taught with the Advanced Nitrox class.
You can find the standards that include this at
www.iantd.com/standards/IANTD_Standards_2003.pdf

Thank you!

David Mount
General Manager
IANTD World Headquarters
305-751-4873 iantd.com

[BigJetDriver]

sasdasdaf once bubbled...
Was that meant as a joke?

No, it was not meant as a joke, and if you have the dive history and credentials to criticize Tom Mount, you had best start typing, because you are going to have to go along way to best his experience level!=-)

[sasdasdaf]

I don't have anywhere close to Tom Mount's experience but I do disagree with your statement.

You said that "He does not allow either his courses or his instructors to stray from the mark of excellence."

Have you seen IANTD instructors in action???

[cornfed]

sasdasdaf once bubbled...
Have you seen IANTD instructors in action???

Yes I have.

Shut up before you make yourself look like more of a fool.

[sasdasdaf]

My opinion is the agency's standards are poor and lax. If one has to rely on the individual instructor to exceed the minimum standards in order to get a good educational experience, then the standards are lacking.

There are good IANTD instructors out there but that is not a result of IANTD's standards.

[cornfed]

sasdasdaf once bubbled...
My opinion is the agency's standards are poor and lax. If one has to rely on the individual instructor to exceed the minimum standards in order to get a good educational experience, then the standards are lacking.

There are good IANTD instructors out there but that is not a result of IANTD's standards.

Here are IANTD's current standards

http://www.iantd.com/standards/IANTD_Standards_2003.pdf

Please cite specific examples off where they are "poor and lax".

[narcT]

MHK once bubbled...
Let me see if I can shed some light behind our intention(s) of the GUE Triox program..

The underlying spirit and intention of the class is to fill a void that some of us believe exists in the industry. While for certain the helium content has spurred the curiousity of many, the class is more aligned with what many of us believe should be a true advanced diving class. More often the not, most AOW classes today are an immediate extension of the OW class. Some believe that the OW programs have been diluted significantly so the AOW is the completion of OW training.

A true Advanced diving class should, in my opinion, be about learning proper protocols to dive in the 80' - 120', including proper gas choice, proper team protocols, proper gas management, ascent rate startegies and refining fundamental skills that are often ignored. Against that background we released the Recreational Triox program. I think too many people focus on the helium aspect, whereas we believe that helium is but one small tool in the tool box when you are planning a dive in the 80' - 120' range..

I hope that more fully explains the program, but please let me know if you have any questions..

Regards

Hi, I have never used Helium before so forgive me if this is a stupid question:)

Consider the following(EXAMPLES, DON'T USE FOR DIVING):

120 feet for 15 minutes on EANx 32 requires 3 minute deco.
120 feet for 15 minutes on 21/35 triox requires a 10 minute deco.
200 feet for 15 minutes on air requires 41 minutes of deco.
200 feet for 15 minutes on 21/35 triox requires 49 minutes deco (but your not narcT:-)).

What is the benefit of using triox if it increases your deco obligation? I mean, I understand at 200 feet it helps one keep a clear head.

Triox at rec diving limits just seems like a terrible waste of good Helium??? Isn't Helium expensive???

-Just Curious

[MHK]

narcT once bubbled...


Hi, I have never used Helium before so forgive me if this is a stupid question:)

Consider the following(EXAMPLES, DON'T USE FOR DIVING):
What is the benefit of using triox if it increases your deco obligation? I mean, I understand at 200 feet it helps one keep a clear head.

Triox at rec diving limits just seems like a terrible waste of good Helium??? Isn't Helium expensive???

-Just Curious

I'm not sure where you got your profiles from, but in the recreational diving, ie; in the 80'- 120' range you will NOT see an increase on decompression obligation. In fact, we keep our GUE Recreational Triox class in otherwise recrecational accepted NDL limits, so there is no added penalty. So the obvious question you may still have then is why use it anyway.

Well, when you consider the C02 reduction in terms of potential C02 retention, when you consider gas density issues, when you consider the END benefits over air you start to see that once the misinformation is dispelled that Triox is today what Nitrox was about 10 years ago, misunderstood, demagogued and the benefactor of a scare tactic.. That is until the "giants" figure out how to market it and then they'll be selling it to you in no time.. Remember 10 years ago the big agencies where saying that Nitrox was snake oil and voodoo gas, now today they are selling classes over the internet without ever having to meet an instructor or get in the water.. They had it wrong then, and they have it wrong now..

Later

[wb416]

narcT once bubbled...


Hi, I have never used Helium before so forgive me if this is a stupid question:)

Consider the following(EXAMPLES, DON'T USE FOR DIVING):

120 feet for 15 minutes on EANx 32 requires 3 minute deco.
120 feet for 15 minutes on 21/35 triox requires a 10 minute deco.
200 feet for 15 minutes on air requires 41 minutes of deco.
200 feet for 15 minutes on 21/35 triox requires 49 minutes deco (but your not narcT:-)).

What is the benefit of using triox if it increases your deco obligation? I mean, I understand at 200 feet it helps one keep a clear head.

Triox at rec diving limits just seems like a terrible waste of good Helium??? Isn't Helium expensive???

-Just Curious

What program are you using for the calculation? If I take your first example of 120 ft... first, I, personally, would reconsider the use of EAN 32, nonetheless, if you look at a more apples-to-apples on the "recreational" depth juxaposing EAN30 and 30/30 using V-planner, you'll see the overall time is a wash:
(my bottom times are different than yours above, but I already had these examples saved)


V-Planner 3.10 by R. Hemingway, VPM code by Erik C. Baker.

Decompression model: VPM-B

DIVE PLAN 1
120ft, 25 minutes, EAN30
Surface interval = 7 day 0 hr 0 min.
Altitude = 0ft
Conservatism = Nominal

Dec to 120ft (2) on Nitrox 30.0, 50ft/min descent.
Level 120ft 22:36 (25) on Nitrox 30.0, 1.39 ppO2, 103ft END
Asc to 100ft (25) on Nitrox 30.0, -30ft/min ascent.
Asc to 40ft (27) on Nitrox 30.0, -30ft/min ascent.
Stop at 30ft 2:20 (30) on Nitrox 30.0, 0.57 ppO2, 23ft END
Stop at 20ft 3:00 (33) on Nitrox 30.0, 0.48 ppO2, 14ft END
Stop at 10ft 7:00 (40) on Nitrox 30.0, 0.39 ppO2, 5ft END
Asc to sfc. (41) on Nitrox 30.0, -10ft/min ascent.

Off gassing starts at 71.4 ft

OTU's this dive: 42
CNS Total: 16.7%

98.2 cu ft Nitrox 30.0
98.2 cu ft TOTAL

DIVE PLAN 2
120ft, 25 minutes, 30/30
Surface interval = 7 day 0 hr 0 min.
Altitude = 0ft
Conservatism = Nominal

Dec to 120ft (2) on Trimix 30.0/30.0, 50ft/min descent.
Level 120ft 22:36 (25) on Trimix 30.0/30.0, 1.39 ppO2, 44ft END
Asc to 100ft (25) on Trimix 30.0/30.0, -30ft/min ascent.
Asc to 40ft (27) on Trimix 30.0/30.0, -30ft/min ascent.
Stop at 30ft 1:20 (29) on Trimix 30.0/30.0, 0.57 ppO2, 0ft END
Stop at 20ft 4:00 (33) on Trimix 30.0/30.0, 0.48 ppO2, 0ft END
Stop at 10ft 7:00 (40) on Trimix 30.0/30.0, 0.39 ppO2, 0ft END
Asc to sfc. (41) on Trimix 30.0/30.0, -10ft/min ascent.

Off gassing starts at 70.4 ft

OTU's this dive: 42
CNS Total: 16.6%

98.0 cu ft Trimix 30.0/30.0
98 cu ft TOTAL



In this case with this program, adding He adds no additional obligation, in fact, the overall runtime is the same. Doing the same dive on EAN30 vs 30/30, I've personally noticed greater detail with 30/30 even though I'd done the same dive many times previously on EAN30.

regards,
bob

[cornfed]

MHK once bubbled...


I'm not sure where you got your profiles from, but in the recreational diving, ie; in the 80'- 120' range you will NOT see an increase on decompression obligation. In fact, we keep our GUE Recreational Triox class in otherwise recrecational accepted NDL limits, so there is no added penalty. So the obvious question you may still have then is why use it anyway.


Mike,

Have you taken a look at IANTD's new program? I'm curious as to what you think about it.

[MHK]

cornfed once bubbled...


Mike,

Have you taken a look at IANTD's new program? I'm curious as to what you think about it.

The only thing that I've seen of the program is from Jim Wyatt's website, and since I believe firmly that this program is much more then adding helium to the mix it would be difficult for me to comment on the program based on a comparitive analysis of what I know about the GUE program and what is on Jim's site..

Sorry I couldn't be of more help..

Regards

[cornfed]

MHK once bubbled...

Sorry I couldn't be of more help..


I've posted the current IANTD standards TWICE to this thread...

Come on Mike, it's not like there are 600 posts in this thread! ;)

[chrpai]

cornfed once bubbled...


Let's start with your assumption...

There are lot of wrecks near me that are in 100+ ft range. I'm interested in "tech" because I want to spend more then 10 or 15 minutes on them. Now Tech 1 is the level I'd like to be at but I'm not ready for the class. I have a few opinions,
make these dives with (what I consider) inadequate training
rush to meet the prerequisites for the training I want, eg hit the quarry every weekend and fill up my log book
stop making these dives until I receive the training I want
take a class I don't "need" so that I can dive some of the things I'd like and keep working till I'm read for my "real" training.

Wouldn't you agree that taking a class I don't really "need" is the best option?

Considering I know the wrecks that you speak of, and the quality of divers you'll find at the quarry, I wouldn't say that is your best option.

I don't know about you, but I get more out of a quarry trip then just logging another dive in the old book ( which I don't bother to do anyways)

Also you can go out on Surface Interval or Fiest on a 100' dive and get alot more then 15 minutes out of a dive using just Nitrox.

[narcT]

wb416 once bubbled...


What program are you using for the calculation? If I take your first example of 120 ft... first, I, personally, would reconsider the use of EAN 32, nonetheless, if you look at a more apples-to-apples on the "recreational" depth juxaposing EAN30 and 30/30 using V-planner, you'll see the overall time is a wash:
(my bottom times are different than yours above, but I already had these examples saved)


In this case with this program, adding He adds no additional obligation, in fact, the overall runtime is the same. Doing the same dive on EAN30 vs 30/30, I've personally noticed greater detail with 30/30 even though I'd done the same dive many times previously on EAN30.

regards,
bob

Last time I said I dive EAN 32 at 130 all the time I was called a Troll. So I won't say that again! Ok, so lets say I use EAN 30.

I'm using Deco Planner 2.0.49 from GUE (whoever that is:) ).
Your using a 30/30 mix, I thought Triox was 21/35? That would make a little difference for sure;) Using 30/30 is definitly closer, 120ft for 15 minutes 4 minute deco rather than 10 minutes on 21/35 and 3 minutes on nitrox 30.

Question, how much does it cost for an AL80 with Triox 30/30 v. just plain ol Nitrox 30?

[MHK]

cornfed once bubbled...


I've posted the current IANTD standards TWICE to this thread...

Come on Mike, it's not like there are 600 posts in this thread! ;)

I think you missed my point.. My point was that you can't get a feel for a class by simply looking at the standards, atleast in the class that we are discussing. What I mean by that, and I'm trying to be careful not to throw the IANTD's class under the bus, is that it's easy to copy or modify the standards that we put out to put another's agencies touch on the standards, but in my view this class is all about teaching the proper diving protocols to dive in the deep recreational range, and helium is but one small tool in the tool box. Accordingly, in order for me to comment on the IANTD program I would need to see the course material, and I'm advised there is no books, and I would need to see what the class does in the way of skills.

For example [ and it's completely hypothetical for illustration} but let's say the approach is that in their view the class is about helium, and they do a similiar approach to their Nitrox class, meaning they talk about the gas and the dives are recommended, but not required. If that was the case I would have one view of the class. However on the other end of the spectrum, let's assume that they do 6 dives [ or whatever number] but the dives are more aligned with skills necessary to be practiced for a class that is certifying someone to dive deep in the recreational relm, then I would have a different view of the class. There just isn't enough information to comment by looking at standards..

Regards

[cornfed]

Welcome back, how's the desert?

Since you and I have somewhat of a less then amiable history, Chris, let me preface by letting you know I'm in a pissy mode today so take what I say too personally, alright? ;)


chrpai once bubbled...


Considering I know the wrecks that you speak of, and the quality of divers you'll find at the quarry, I wouldn't say that is your best option.


You'd be amazed who you find at the quarry if you know where to look.



I don't know about you, but I get more out of a quarry trip then just logging another dive in the old book ( which I don't bother to do anyways)


Pedagogical.... let's not rehash that shall we?



Also you can go out on Surface Interval or Fiest on a 100' dive and get alot more then 15 minutes out of a dive using just Nitrox.

Try doing 2 back-to-back 100 ft dives on nitrox with a 1 hr SIT and see what kind of times you acutally get on the bottom. Not run time, but actual time at 100 ft.

[cornfed]

MHK once bubbled...


I think you missed my point..

Fair enough.

You and I need to talk about...

[narcT]

narcT once bubbled...


Last time I said I dive EAN 32 at 130 all the time I was called a Troll. So I won't say that again! Ok, so lets say I use EAN 30.

I'm using Deco Planner 2.0.49 from GUE (whoever that is:) ).
Your using a 30/30 mix, I thought Triox was 21/35? That would make a little difference for sure;) Using 30/30 is definitly closer, 120ft for 15 minutes 4 minute deco rather than 10 minutes on 21/35 and 3 minutes on nitrox 30.

Question, how much does it cost for an AL80 with Triox 30/30 v. just plain ol Nitrox 30?

Never mind I found it. Your right they do use a 30/30 mix for the rec class. My bad:D

[narcT]

narcT once bubbled...


Never mind I found it. Your right they do use a 30/30 mix for the rec class. My bad:D

OK now I know why nobody would answer my question!

Called the LDS and a 30/30 mix is $35 for an AL80<<-- OUCH!
Nitrox 32 is only $10...I'll pass on shallow dives (130 or less).

[MHK]

narcT once bubbled...


OK now I know why nobody would answer my question!

Called the LDS and a 30/30 mix is $35 for an AL80<<-- OUCH!
Nitrox 32 is only $10...I'll pass on shallow dives (130 or less).

That is extremely expensive. Our LDS charges $16 for an AL 80 of 30/30..

Also, in our classes we teach you how to blend and what we've found is that many of our students go on to buy their own T or H bottles of Helium and a transfill whip, do there own Helium fills and save a fair amount of money.. $35 for 30/30 is a bit much

Regards

[narcT]

Wow thats cheap!

I still think 30/30 is a lot of He for shallow diving:)

Why not 30/20?

Or 27/17, thats good to 150:D

[RichLockyer]

narcT once bubbled...
Why not 30/20?

Or 27/17, thats good to 150:D
27/17 is not good to 150. It's good to 130... and really, it would be best not to take it below 120 or so.

As far as the helium level, it is true that 30/30 gives you an END well above 100ft, but there are physiological advantages that you don't get from helium when the level is below 30%.

Other than cost, there's no drawback.

[Charlie99]

RichLockyer once bubbled...

27/17 is not good to 150. It's good to 130... and really, it would be best not to take it below 120 or so.

As far as the helium level, it is true that 30/30 gives you an END well above 100ft, but there are physiological advantages that you don't get from helium when the level is below 30%.

Other than cost, there's no drawback. If you are easily confused, then there's a big drawback to using multiple mixtures. :)

Seriously, there is an advantage to diving just a few selected standard mixes, particularly if you are calculating NDL on-the-fly in your head.

[RichLockyer]

Charlie99 once bubbled...
If you are easily confused, then there's a big drawback to using multiple mixtures. :)

Seriously, there is an advantage to diving just a few selected standard mixes, particularly if you are calculating NDL on-the-fly in your head.
Absolutely... it's really nice ALWAYS knowing what your MOD is without having to calculate it for every dive plan.

[chrisch]

Well I'm a bit more clearer now - thanks for the URL for the new IANTD standards that's useful.

I've heard a lot about the 30% point for He, but cannot find much supporting info. Also it appears that NAUI use a 17% mix.

What's the thinking behind this?

Chris.

[narcT]

RichLockyer once bubbled...

27/17 is not good to 150. It's good to 130... and really, it would be best not to take it below 120 or so.

As far as the helium level, it is true that 30/30 gives you an END well above 100ft, but there are physiological advantages that you don't get from helium when the level is below 30%.

Other than cost, there's no drawback.

Why can't you dive 27/17 at 150 ft? PPO2 is only 1.5:confused:

I'm not being a smart a*%, but what are the physiological advantages of using such a high level of helium rather than say 17?

Or should I just shutup and take a trimix class:D

[detroit diver]

narcT once bubbled...


Why can't you dive 27/17 at 150 ft? PPO2 is only 1.5:confused:

I'm not being a smart a*%, but what are the physiological advantages of using such a high level of helium rather than say 17?

Or should I just shutup and take a trimix class:D

Conventional thought is that ppo2 should be no higher than 1.4.

The advantages of higher helium is that you have less nitrogen to breathe.

[baenglish73]

How do these numbers work? :dunce:

What is a 27/27.

Then what is an 80/20 (Strokemix)? :reaper:
I may have interpreted why it is bad, but the lingo is beyond me.

[Charlie99]

detroit diver once bubbled...
The advantages of higher helium is that you have less nitrogen to breathe. If the goal is to have less nitrogen, why not go all the way and have a 30/70 heliox mixture?

(I don't want to hear about costs, but rather the relative desirability of heliox vs trimix for 150' near NDL dives).

Charlie

[RichLockyer]

Charlie99 once bubbled...
If the goal is to have less nitrogen, why not go all the way and have a 30/70 heliox mixture?
Cost outweighs the benefit.

[detroit diver]

baenglish73 once bubbled...
How do these numbers work? :dunce:

What is a 27/27.

Then what is an 80/20 (Strokemix)? :reaper:
I may have interpreted why it is bad, but the lingo is beyond me.


The first number is your oxygen content, the second your helium content, in percentages.

Ie. 21/35 would be 21 percent O2 and 35 percent He. Nitrogen is not represented in this number.


80/20 would be 80 percent O2 and 20 percent He.

[detroit diver]

He didn't want to hear about costs, so that's why I didn't respond!!!:)



RichLockyer once bubbled...

Cost outweighs the benefit.

[RichLockyer]

narcT once bubbled...
Why can't you dive 27/17 at 150 ft? PPO2 is only 1.5 :confused:
Take a trimix class and a current nitrox class.
Current limit for PPO2 is 1.4 for the working portion of the dive and 1.6 for decompression. It is wise to go even lower, especially for extended exposures or repetitive dives. 1.0-1.2 would be a good limit for a week long liveaboard.

Drop the abject fear of decompression. There isn't some magic bottom time that will bend you... below traditional NDL, your ascent rate is your decompression stop. Beyond NDL, your ascent rate is simply slowed further. If you were to go to 100ft for 10 minutes and immediately surface, you would probably get bent, though you are well within NDL.

Once we drop the fear of decompression, we realize that we no longer need to optimize our O2 level for the specific dive. We can now dive a standard mix based on planned depth RANGE... 0-100ft, EAN32. 70-120ft, 30/30. 70-150, 21/35. 150-200, 18/45. 200-250, 15/55. 250-400, 10/70.
This means that:
1 - We don't get stuck with a tank that's "too hot" for the dive if conditions required a change in destination/site.
2 - We reduce our exposure to high pressure O2
3 - We can bank EAN32 and fill our tanks (except for the 30/30) by simply priming with helium and topping with EAN32. There is never a need to blend pure O2 directly into our tanks, and the bank can be filled from a CF blender.

[RichLockyer]

baenglish73 once bubbled...
What is a 27/27.

Then what is an 80/20 (Strokemix)?
27% oxygen, 17% helium.
80/20 is a unique case, which refers to 80% nitrox.

[DeepScuba]

Rich's post brings me to a question I've had for a while now. Not so much a question, but more than I just want some input to here the pro's and con's.....don't mean to hijack the thread.....

I used to opt for one long(er) deco dive on a site, vs two short(er) deco dives.

I then came across George Irvine's rant about doing two "milder" deco dive lessens the chance of a DSC vs one longer one due to the greater increase of deco time on the single longer dive.

My thought was alwasys centered around doing one longer one, doing the required deco and skipping the compressing/decompressing follow by compressing/decompressing for the second dive. There again, my thinking was, only doing it once was "kinder" to my body.

I've since changed to his philosophy, also noting I get more actual (total) bottom time and spending less time (per dive) getting "deep" into the "Deco-Zone".

Thoughts?

[Charlie99]

detroit diver once bubbled...
He didn't want to hear about costs, so that's why I didn't respond!!!:) What software do you use to plan your dives?

I notice that for example, on a 140' 15 minute dive, that V-Planner gradually increases the deco requirements as the He% increases, with heliox deco times being signficantly longer than 30/30 or even 30/50.

This implies to me that eliminating all N2 is not an ideal goal.

What does your software or tables say?

[100days-a-year]

I don't claim to be smarter than the math wizards who wrote all the software I have but as a devil's advocate I have run tables with every conceivable mix and despite any claims to the contrary I have found that different conditions reward certain mixes and penalize others.FI..32/36 and 80/20 will sometimes get you out sooner,sometimes more He does beget more deco.What I also found was that the differences either way in dives I've done which are <250' and BTs less than 35min amount to less than 5 minutes in most cases.If people would back off those easily disproved claims(I used VPM,Voyager,GAP,ZPlan,MPlan)and concentrate on Rich' posts claims and goals there would be a lot more agreement.Standardization prevents a lot of problems from ever arising.Is it really so important that everyone dive exactly as you do? no, but getting out the info in a combative manner makes it seem that way.It is funny to see that cost is an issue in deco gases that have much less volume used versus back gas which can eat up more He than a deco cylinder can carry.Are the "benefits less important?200cuft of 30/30 equals 60 cuft of he and stages of al40 50o2/50he would have 20cuft and at 1/3 s it would be 40cuftHe used backgas and 13.6cuftHe seems to me.

[narcT]

detroit diver once bubbled...


Conventional thought is that ppo2 should be no higher than 1.4.

The advantages of higher helium is that you have less nitrogen to breathe.

Weeelllll I have had this debate before. My wife and I set our dive computers to 1.6 and dive it all the time.

EAN32 at 130 is the norm. Its a personal choice, we simply have chosen to dive this (EAN32 is all we can get on a lot of live aboards anyway).

The 1.4 is a good place for most people, but I don't know any tech divers where I live that dive 1.4;) And in thousands of dives out here I have never seen anyone take a hit...even after 30 minutes at 1.6. Just doesn't happen were I live, maybe its because of all the BC's we burn to the DIR gods???

NOTE: I DO NOT RECOMMEND ANYONE DIVE PPO2'S OVER 1.4

Triox 30/30 for rec divers is a money making scam. Its a waste of money (and makes my nads hurt when I think of all that precious helium being wasted!!!). Dive nitrox or take a real trimix class, then dive the proper mix for the dive.

Hummmm tomorrow at 425 I'll use a mix of:confused:

Have you hugged a Troll today???<<--:boom:

[chrisch]

Hey guys I thought we were debating He/N2 here not PO2s!!

While I agree that 30/30 sounds wierd as the PO2 limits the depth and therefore makes the He content questionable I really was trying to get some feedback on the other (non-GUE) mixes. If a high PN2 has problems with red cell rigidity and CO2 retention then some He is helpful. Likewise narcosis can be combatted by some He in the mix.

Qustion is how much is needed at "recreational" depths - i.e. less than 150fsw/45m

What's the thing about 30% He?

Chris

BTW I've signed up for the damn thing now so too late...

[narcT]

Ask your instructor to explain this (decoplanner 2.0.49):

120ft for 30 minutes on 30/30 is 20 minute deco.
120ft for 30 minutes on 30/17 is 17 minute deco.
120ft for 30 minutes on EAN30 is 15 minute deco.

30/30 is just tooooo much darn helium at rec depths IMHO.

NOTE: FOR TROLLING PURPOSES ONLY, DO NOT USE FOR DIVING:D

[chrisch]

Mmmm...

Well that's software for you. Just run the same profiles on V Planner and the longest stop is the EAN30 with the 30/30 next then the 30/17.

Guess we could do this lots of times and get lots of answers. I also notice that you can speed things up by using a EAN deco gas or travel gas to "pull" the He out and then He mixes get way better.

However, my question still stands why should the fraction of gas (FHe30) be important? Surely its the PP (PPHe) that is important??

Dazed and confused..

Chris :confused:

[narcT]

The only reason He is important to me is because out here it costs $1.50 per cubic foot!

So if 30/17 works at 120ft or less, why pay for 30/30?

[cornfed]

chrisch once bubbled...
Mmmm...

Well that's software for you. Just run the same profiles on V Planner and the longest stop is the EAN30 with the 30/30 next then the 30/17.

I think it's pretty obvious that you can't draw any meaningful conclusions about helium use from these numbers.

But then again, what I think is obvious isn't always what others see as such.

[100days-a-year]

And could someone post a link to a study or even an MD that validates the red blood cell rigidity thingie.I have seached,googled and talked to DSOs and could get no validation.In the law buisness we call that hearsay.;) and it's not accepted as evidence.

[Delta_P]

Councillor: Much as I would like to believe that Diving Safety Officers are the font of all diving related knowledge, you're better off searching the medical literature:

www.pubmed.com

A search on Erythrocytes and Rigidity produces ~ 400 hits. I leave it to you to comb the abstracts. Lots of interesting stuff on changes in RBC membrane structure with exposure to hyperbaric oxygen and hydrogen, and some on hyperbaric nitrogen.

This paper from the 80's is a little old, but might be a good place to start:


"Alterations in red blood cell morphology during a 500 metre dive."

Paciorek JA, Onarheim J.

[flw]

I had a look in ovid this morning out of interest, and came accross lots of references to the mechanisms for hyperbaric O2 causing changes in membrane lipid order, and one for a 100m dive using heliox causing changes in osmostic resistance and decreases in Cl, K and Na - but nothing suggesting it was hyperbaric N2 as is commonly suggested.
Is it therefore a mechanism dependant purely on hydrostatic pressure, or a function of high PO2s rather than high pN2's

[100days-a-year]

Delta-P,thanx for the link.I'll look in my liesure, may be a month or so to find stuff.BTW not a lawyer,I just played one on TV or was it that I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express:)