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pheel
March 14th, 2011, 08:57 PM
Hello all,

I was told 4 years ago when I started diving that I might not be allowed to dive at a dive center different from my agency cert card. In other word, a NAUI diver might not be able to dive in a PADI resort...

It sounded BS to me that a dive center would refuse business. Well we never know.

just wondering if it had happened to someone?

pheel

Cave Diver
March 14th, 2011, 09:00 PM
I've never had a problem with a card from another agency as long as it was an equivalent level for the dive I was attempting to do.

Wookie
March 14th, 2011, 09:23 PM
Pheel, in the distant past many PADI resorts would refuse CMAS or BSAC cards. I believe that is now in the past. BSAC and CMAS did not follow the RSTC standards. Who issued your card?

Peter_C
March 14th, 2011, 09:24 PM
My friend almost got denied diving a Florida wreck because the DM had never heard of GUE, and stated they required a AOW card. GUE lists max depth as 100ft right on the card, which was enough to do the wreck. Eventually she gave up and let him dive in his well used Hogartian gear.

I have heard in places like France they do not look highly upon training agencies like PADI since they require more stringent training standards in France.

Mayor
March 14th, 2011, 09:37 PM
Most ops just want the AOW card. You could have tech 2 or cave 2 training but they still want the AOW card. I always get a good laugh out of it.

gypsyjim
March 14th, 2011, 09:44 PM
I have read some time back of some dive ops not honoring PADI certs, in other parts of the world where CMAS is the standard. I have no idea how prevalent this was, if it really was, or if this is still the case.

I have never had any issues, beyond one time I had to do a refresher dive, to confirm my skills, as my original Y card was the only one with me, and it was pretty severely damaged by all the years in my wallet.

Figure with my Y, CMAS, and PADI cards all in my log book now, when I travel I pretty much have it covered for most recreational diving.

pheel
March 14th, 2011, 09:50 PM
Pheel, in the distant past many PADI resorts would refuse CMAS or BSAC cards. I believe that is now in the past. BSAC and CMAS did not follow the RSTC standards. Who issued your card?

I did all my courses at a local PADI school.

emoreira
March 14th, 2011, 09:53 PM
I'm SSI certified and have dived several times with PADI groups and DMs.
However, in south Brazil, in Bombinhas (known as the diving capital of the Santa Catarina State), where there are several operators, a friend of mine was told to go to the PADI boat instead of the diving boat I've recommended that is from a SSI operator.

Jim Lapenta
March 14th, 2011, 09:54 PM
Ditto, YMCA Silver Instructor, SEI Instructor, CMAS 2 star Instructor, NAUI Helitrox, and PADI DM. Only issue I might have is with the moron who will not accept my Helitrox (NAUI entry level trimix) to get a nitrox fill. But then again a place that dumb I likely don't want to dive with anyway. Who knows what else they don't know? But I carry one of my nitrox cards anyway. It doesn't say nitrox instructor on any of my cards even though I can teach it.

vladimir
March 14th, 2011, 10:20 PM
I actually had some issues with my YMCA card a long time ago (80s?). I was never prevented from diving, but it was questioned a few times.

tbone1004
March 14th, 2011, 10:29 PM
Most ops just want the AOW card. You could have tech 2 or cave 2 training but they still want the AOW card. I always get a good laugh out of it.

Hrrm, could be a problem. Have tech cave but not AOW... woops, oh well. If they have issues with that then I don't want to dive with them anyway

gypsyjim
March 14th, 2011, 10:37 PM
I actually had some issues with my YMCA card a long time ago (80s?). I was never prevented from diving, but it was questioned a few times.

My only problem with my Y cert was that mine was so tattered it was illegible. When I learned that the YMCA card is a cross over to the CMAS (they honored each others certs because of the training involved), I applied for the CMAS card, and carry them both when I travel.

I did some PADI training later, as my '70's Y training needed a bit of updating over the years, simply because the sport keeps evolving.

NWGratefulDiver
March 14th, 2011, 10:38 PM
I was once refused service in Maui because of agency. Stopped into a shop near where we were staying to sign up for a boat out to Molokini the next day. The fellow said I needed an AOW certification. So I pulled out my YMCA Advanced Open Water card. He told me he couldn't accept it. So I then pulled out my NAUI Instructor card. He said he couldn't accept that one either. I asked him what he could accept, and he said it had to be a PADI card.

Sorry to say, I couldn't accommodate ... I don't own one ...

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m257/NWGratefulDiver/Miscellaneous/certcards.jpg

We walked across the street to another dive shop, who was happy to take us out ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Farback
March 14th, 2011, 10:53 PM
I've always found that grey hair, gear older than the kid behind the counter, and the color of my money has sufficed no matter which card I bring along.

Nemrod
March 14th, 2011, 11:13 PM
I have had, mostly in the 80s when padi was going berserk, a few issues with my Y cards and my wife still only has Y cards. But I just pulled out another, really, these days, sometimes, many times, nobody even asks to see my cards. I don't show any professional level cards to go diving, just my NAUI AOW.

N

diverrick
March 14th, 2011, 11:27 PM
"YMCA" LOL!!!! Now your dating yourself there. I got mine there in 76.Very thorough class, MOre like boot camp. Sure was a far better class than the cert class my wife got decades later.
I lost my card a few years ago and called YMCA to get it replaced. They insisted they had never did SCUBA classes, ever... I had to laugh, as those folks had not even been born back then.
I still like to show off my card on trips. Single stage regs, no gauges, no BC's, huge masks,diamond black rubber suits with the all needed repair glue in tow.. talc powder so you could get the darned things on.. Made our own weights from old tire weights. Man that's bringing back some memories now.

japan-diver
March 14th, 2011, 11:31 PM
I don't think I have shown a card other than "VISA" to go diving in over 10 years. I normally have a card stuck in my wallet somewhere if asked but no one usually asks to actually see the card.

ajduplessis
March 15th, 2011, 05:31 AM
Complete BS, however I am very sure this still happens in smaller remote resorts.

seasick
March 15th, 2011, 06:31 AM
I have never come across an operator who refuses to bring you diving once you put cold hard cash on the table. You don't even need a c-card.........of course having your own gear helps......


Best regards,
SS

tstormdiver
March 15th, 2011, 06:33 AM
Most ops just want the AOW card. You could have tech 2 or cave 2 training but they still want the AOW card. I always get a good laugh out of it.

Never ceases to amaze me........ demanding an AOW card,... with the possibly of only 9 dives total & possibly never without an instructor......:shakehead:

scubadada
March 20th, 2011, 05:01 PM
I've always been tempted to show my LA Co Underwater Unit OW card (1970) as proof of certification but have never done so and do not carry it with me in my dive log. I could always use my log for recent deep dives if that was needed. Someday I'll try it and report back to SB.

Perception is everything.


Good diving, Craig

Doc Harry
March 20th, 2011, 07:40 PM
If you flash this card, any many more like it, you can probably dive anywhere:

http://meshack737.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/dollar-bill-front-and-back.jpg

drbill
March 21st, 2011, 12:17 PM
I had to do a checkout dive off a boat in Thailand back in 2001 because the PADI instructor, a young guy from Los Angeles, didn't know what a Los Angeles County Underwater Unit c-card was. I told him PADI didn't exist when I started diving and where did he think the founders of PADI got THEIR training? After seeing me on the check out dive, everything was fine (I guess he had his eyes closed while observing me).

Dhboner
March 21st, 2011, 02:54 PM
When I was certified in 1973 my instructor was affiliated with PADI and ACUC (a Canadian certification agency). He told us we needed the ACUC card since very few stores or charters had heard of PADI. Back then NAUI was "King of the Hill".

Funny how times have changed!

Bob (Toronto)

coldsmoke
March 21st, 2011, 03:27 PM
If you flash this card, any many more like it, you can probably dive anywhere:

http://meshack737.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/dollar-bill-front-and-back.jpg

Ha- wish my diving was that cheap. I usually have to show a few more than one. :D

rhwestfall
March 21st, 2011, 04:16 PM
1989 YMCA Open Water card (not quite as fancy looking as NWGD's are)..... I gotta say I'd be pretty pi$$ed if someone felt it wasn't acceptable for the recreational diving I do..... (though I do have another agency AOW card, and I am curious if it meets their "standards" - PDIC).

This is pretty much the reason I dive off my own boat......

Doppler
March 21st, 2011, 04:57 PM
if you flash this card, any many more like it, you can probably dive anywhere:

http://meshack737.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/dollar-bill-front-and-back.jpg

wrong dead president, man!

Puffer Fish
March 21st, 2011, 08:06 PM
I was once refused service in Maui because of agency. Stopped into a shop near where we were staying to sign up for a boat out to Molokini the next day. The fellow said I needed an AOW certification. So I pulled out my YMCA Advanced Open Water card. He told me he couldn't accept it. So I then pulled out my NAUI Instructor card. He said he couldn't accept that one either. I asked him what he could accept, and he said it had to be a PADI card.

Sorry to say, I couldn't accommodate ... I don't own one ...

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m257/NWGratefulDiver/Miscellaneous/certcards.jpg

We walked across the street to another dive shop, who was happy to take us out ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob, I have had that happen three times, and oddly enough, once was on Maui.

Today, I figure if my instructor card is not good enough, then I need to go somewhere else...but when I was younger, I was much more compliant and would take that expensive, one hour PADI skill test to get a card..I have three of them....

Has not happened in a fair number of years...

Mike Campbell
March 27th, 2011, 11:38 AM
Some years ago I had correspondence with the French about diving the Alabama and their CMAS requirements. That worked out through an international agreement as all the divers were NAUI and NOAA certified and well qualified. I was the sole CMAS 3* Instructor around at the time.
That said, if I went to a dive operation and they refused an LA County or YMCA certification I'd walk out based on their lack of appreciation for the history and quality of diving.
Mike

Jim Lapenta
March 27th, 2011, 11:55 AM
Hey Mike, off topic but on as well. Considering a trip down your way this summer. Hopefully bring 6-8 people mix of AOW thru Instructor (me). Best place to look for deals on housing and a boat. All will be ok with deeper stuff and I may want to go into a little deco if it's really cool site. All will have SEI AOW certs or better.

Mike Campbell
March 27th, 2011, 05:03 PM
Jim as it gets closer to your time call me. I always recommend Olympus as they are family to me, but for a small group doing some of the more unusual sites Atlantis IV and Tortuga have good six packs.
I will crank up checkouts here beginning a week from tomorrow and running for two weeks. I dread chilly water!!
Mike

Rhenry
March 27th, 2011, 05:44 PM
When i went for my AOW course, the shop questioned my cert from NAUI. It was resolved in short order, they looked me up online. It was the thought that my NAUI card was somehow less valid than a PADI card..

In the end i took the AOW course and now have a PADI card to go along with my NAUI card..

tekdvr2
April 2nd, 2011, 04:29 PM
When I need a good laugh......I pull out a NAUI OW card from 1982 signed by Drew Richardson...before he went to PADI.

Granny Scuba
April 2nd, 2011, 04:46 PM
I have never even been asked to show my cert card on any boat dives or spring dives. They do ask for my husband's when he fills our tanks. Funny, Ala Blue Water always asks for our cert cards (as they should) and they know who we are.

mongodives
April 2nd, 2011, 05:10 PM
Had it happen in 2000 in Thailand, shop run by Europeans in Pattaya told me no PADI card no diving. Russians down the street saw that I had gear and money, only question they had was how many dives I wanted to do.

sumpdiver
April 2nd, 2011, 06:27 PM
Think they would take a 1977 YMCA CAVE DIVER card.
92123

Scared Silly
April 2nd, 2011, 06:39 PM
wrong dead president, man!

Yeah, but the one you really want does not have a dead president on it.


BTW I once had a problem with my card. I gave them my VISA card instead and all was well.

Gilldiver
April 2nd, 2011, 07:36 PM
Do you think I would have any problems with this?

http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp179/Gilldiver/mics/FirstCertCard.jpg

RTee
April 3rd, 2011, 03:28 PM
I'm SSI certified and have dived several times with PADI groups and DMs.
However, in south Brazil, in Bombinhas (known as the diving capital of the Santa Catarina State), where there are several operators, a friend of mine was told to go to the PADI boat instead of the diving boat I've recommended that is from a SSI operator.

I think this may be very well localized and not widespread.

In 1996 (Dominican Republic) March 09 (Cozumel) I dove with PADI Dive shop using a NAUI Scuba diver card. In Oct 09 (Cuba), I dove with a SSI dive shop using PADI AOW card.

In Feb 10 (Bahamas) a group of us including a Spaniard dove with Blackbeard. While most of us seem to have PADI cert cards, he was CMAS qualified and still had no problem.

Before summer I should have a couple of TDI additions to my logbook. I should be pretty safe come summer time.

RTee
April 3rd, 2011, 03:34 PM
I asked him what he could accept, and he said it had to be a PADI card.

Sorry to say, I couldn't accommodate ... I don't own one ...

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m257/NWGratefulDiver/Miscellaneous/certcards.jpg

We walked across the street to another dive shop, who was happy to take us out ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

...I was expecting Visa, MC or American Express

NWGratefulDiver
April 3rd, 2011, 03:40 PM
...I was expecting Visa, MC or American Express

I've got all of those. I really should take a new picture ... I've had a few more classes since I took that one ... I'm such a card collector ... :D

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Kiwi303
April 3rd, 2011, 09:28 PM
...I was expecting Visa, MC or American Express

You know, around here is you wave an AmEx around, you're likely to be asked to produce a REAL card...

dmoore19
April 3rd, 2011, 09:40 PM
You know, around here is you wave an AmEx around, you're likely to be asked to produce a REAL card...

I don't have a REAL card. I guess that must be one from New Zealand?:rofl3::rofl3:

smurf doc
April 3rd, 2011, 11:35 PM
Hey guys, if you don't mind a slight diversion, I have a question. Is there any advantage to getting cards from multiple agencies, especially since it seems it is not a problem? At the recreational level, do other agencies offer something that PADI (my cert) doesn't teach?

In my area it is PADI or SSI, and the SSI shop did not give me good feelings. Of course I love my instructor who trained me for OW and want to take my other courses through her. However, I'm sure almost everyone else probably loves their initial instructors also.

Gombessa
April 4th, 2011, 12:04 AM
Do you think I would have any problems with this?

http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp179/Gilldiver/mics/FirstCertCard.jpg

"I'm sorry Mr. Johnson. This certification doesn't qualify you for general open water dives. As I'm sure you're already aware, with a "Scuba Diver" certification, you may only dive under the direct supervision of a Divemaster, Assistant Instructor or Instructor to a maximum depth of 12 metres / 40 feet. Of course, you can always upgrade to an Open Water certification, just sign up for one of our classes here!"

Scuba Diver Open Water Diving Adventure Courses - PADI Scuba Diving Training Organization (http://www.padi.com/scuba/padi-courses/diver-level-courses/view-all-padi-courses/scuba-diver/default.aspx)

Gilldiver
April 5th, 2011, 06:38 AM
"I'm sorry Mr. Johnson. This certification doesn't qualify you for general open water dives. As I'm sure you're already aware, with a "Scuba Diver" certification, you may only dive under the direct supervision of a Divemaster, Assistant Instructor or Instructor to a maximum depth of 12 metres / 40 feet. Of course, you can always upgrade to an Open Water certification, just sign up for one of our classes here!"

Scuba Diver Open Water Diving Adventure Courses - PADI Scuba Diving Training Organization (http://www.padi.com/scuba/padi-courses/diver-level-courses/view-all-padi-courses/scuba-diver/default.aspx)

Well I could show my Nitrox from 93, or my AOW, from 95, or my Trimix, but my cert card from Andew Jackson most likely will do it.

Back in 95 I was in the Bahamas and left my cert cards in the hotel and was getting the line about needing a log and my cert to do a 2 tank run. The owner came over and told the guy giving me the line that I has a $500 reg around my neck and had about $3000 worth of camera in my hands (Nikonos V, 15mm lens and view finder and strobe) and that anyone who walked into his shop with that amount of gear that had a used look to it could go and dive.

On the boat I was in only shorts and a T-shirt, the same Line guy handed me a weight belt with 14#’s of lead and I asked him what I was to do with that much, anchor the boat? I then asked him for 6#’s (4 for the tank and 2 for me) and he muttered “Oh, you do know how to dive …..”

NWGratefulDiver
April 5th, 2011, 07:02 AM
Hey guys, if you don't mind a slight diversion, I have a question. Is there any advantage to getting cards from multiple agencies, especially since it seems it is not a problem? At the recreational level, do other agencies offer something that PADI (my cert) doesn't teach?

In my area it is PADI or SSI, and the SSI shop did not give me good feelings. Of course I love my instructor who trained me for OW and want to take my other courses through her. However, I'm sure almost everyone else probably loves their initial instructors also.

To address your question ... I would say if you're happy with your instructor, stick with her. At the recreational level, a good PADI instructor can teach you what you need to know.

At the recreational level, all the agencies teach basically the same thing. There are some slight variations in what skills are required, and some differences in what they emphasize, and how they present the material ... but a good instructor will more than make up for those differences.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

smurf doc
April 5th, 2011, 07:33 AM
To address your question ... I would say if you're happy with your instructor, stick with her. At the recreational level, a good PADI instructor can teach you what you need to know.

At the recreational level, all the agencies teach basically the same thing. There are some slight variations in what skills are required, and some differences in what they emphasize, and how they present the material ... but a good instructor will more than make up for those differences.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Thanks Bob!

bwade
April 5th, 2011, 09:29 AM
Do you think I would have any problems with this?

http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp179/Gilldiver/mics/FirstCertCard.jpg

Yup, looks exactly like my first card and is in the same shape. Mine's 1978 the instructor number was 110... loooong time ago...

Now I feel old... :shakehead:

Cheers

Puffer Fish
April 6th, 2011, 08:15 AM
Yup, looks exactly like my first card and is in the same shape. Mine's 1978 the instructor number was 110... loooong time ago...

Now I feel old... :shakehead:

Cheers

Here, this should make you feel younger:

http://www.scubaboard.com/gallery/data/500/card.jpg (http://www.scubaboard.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/168195)

Sadly, I lost my first card from an agency that no longer exists... darn.

Mike Campbell
April 6th, 2011, 09:59 PM
That YMCA cave card should still be good. That was a pretty good program and probably as intense (with the gear and knowledge of the time) as many of programs today. I actually remember stopping in High Springs back in the late 60's to buy line for the diving and eggs and bacon for breakfast after sleeping in someones cow pasture for the night....
Those were the good old days....
Mike...at least, I like to pretend they were anyhow....

knfmn
April 15th, 2011, 12:40 PM
Hey guys, if you don't mind a slight diversion, I have a question. Is there any advantage to getting cards from multiple agencies, especially since it seems it is not a problem? At the recreational level, do other agencies offer something that PADI (my cert) doesn't teach?

In my area it is PADI or SSI, and the SSI shop did not give me good feelings. Of course I love my instructor who trained me for OW and want to take my other courses through her. However, I'm sure almost everyone else probably loves their initial instructors also.

I'm not an expert by any means, but I would tend to think that the main advantage to having the same cert from different agencies would be gaining exposure to the different teaching methods from different agencies. I believe, but can't swear to it, that when I finished my OW cert in MX, the folks I was diving with would let you get two cert cards at the same time if you passed the tests for both agencies, I.E. SSI and a PADI cert. I didn't do it, but in retrospect, if it really was an option and not something I made up in my own little head, I probably would have, just for the heck of it.

Kristopher

Randy43068
April 15th, 2011, 12:44 PM
Some of you folks should be questioned thoroughly, perhaps even detained while your sanity is sorted out.

:D

DiverLS
April 15th, 2011, 01:31 PM
I dived with NO card one time. We went to Monterey and I was a little nervous diving with someone I just met. I forgot my cert cards.

So my buddy showed his instructor card, probably the only time he's showed it since that day over 2 years ago. I got to dive as his student. But since I had my own drysuit the guy let me on the boat as certified.

And the instructor is now my snuggle buddy. That's a dive buddy with benefits :D

jan-japan
May 15th, 2011, 10:24 AM
"I'm sorry Mr. Johnson. This certification doesn't qualify you for general open water dives. As I'm sure you're already aware, with a "Scuba Diver" certification, you may only dive under the direct supervision of a Divemaster, Assistant Instructor or Instructor to a maximum depth of 12 metres / 40 feet. Of course, you can always upgrade to an Open Water certification, just sign up for one of our classes here!"

Scuba Diver Open Water Diving Adventure Courses - PADI Scuba Diving Training Organization (http://www.padi.com/scuba/padi-courses/diver-level-courses/view-all-padi-courses/scuba-diver/default.aspx)

Naui Scuba Diver is equal to Padi OW Diver. PADI Scuba diver is equal to Naui passport diver. So yes, Mr Johnson will be able to dive anywhere, and I'm sure he did in over 30 years of being a diver.

Dive Africa
May 16th, 2011, 05:26 AM
The funniest I ever had, was arriving with a mate at a spot we don't normally dive (somewhere on the South African south Coast) my buddy has never done a sports diver cert, but at the time was a police diver with some 15 years diving experience of zero viz, dive in all types of .... water including caves, sewers, rivers.. fishing out bodies and the like.... they refused to let him dive and it took a number of calls to some people known jointly by me and the operator to get (from a well known ITT) a "ha-ha-ha-ha... yes I think he can dive... but you better watch him just in case :-)" before we where let into the water.

To my mates personality: he subsequently did an OW and AOW... he just grinned when the instructor told him that he was a natural and must be sure to keep diving... maybe come and do a rescue course when he had done enough dives - that was after an instructor mate offered to just certify him

ZenDiver.3D
May 16th, 2011, 05:58 AM
You know, I seem to see that it is PADI outfits who don't like to take other cards, if it happens, cause then they offer more courses....:cool2:

drbill
May 16th, 2011, 11:21 AM
I was certified by the Los Angeles County Underwater Unit back in the 60s. I never bothered to get another card until 2001 since the LAC card covered "everything" in BOW, AOW and Rescue back then and I only dove the areas I lived in. When I started doing international dive travel, I was confronted at the very first stop by a young PADI instructor FROM Los Angeles who did not have a clue what the LAC c-card was. He made me do a check out dive before I was allowed to dive on the boat... despite the fact I'd been diving since well before he was born. I had more "trouble" with other dive centers until I got to Cairns, Australia. The instructor at Deep Sea Divers Den I talked to not only recognized my LAC c-card, but said it was a "museum piece." I explained my problem and he gave me a PADI AOW c-card (after I did all the required steps) while I dove the GBR with their shop. I will be interesting to see what happens when I travel to the Red Sea, South America and the Philippines "soon" (soon as I get the $$$).

tomfcrist
May 19th, 2011, 01:08 PM
Ditto, YMCA Silver Instructor, SEI Instructor, CMAS 2 star Instructor, NAUI Helitrox, and PADI DM. Only issue I might have is with the moron who will not accept my Helitrox (NAUI entry level trimix) to get a nitrox fill. But then again a place that dumb I likely don't want to dive with anyway. Who knows what else they don't know? But I carry one of my nitrox cards anyway. It doesn't say nitrox instructor on any of my cards even though I can teach it.

Jim that is funny as heck. I am a NAUI Instructor. When down in the Keys last year i stopped by a NAUI dive center to get some Nitrox fills and the guy behind the counter asked for my NITROX card. When I showed my Instructor card, he refused to accept it and said, "sir i need to see your Nitrox card". I asked to see his manager, who Immediatly filled my tanks while we laughed about what happened. Some people are just uneducated.

NWGratefulDiver
May 19th, 2011, 01:53 PM
Jim that is funny as heck. I am a NAUI Instructor. When down in the Keys last year i stopped by a NAUI dive center to get some Nitrox fills and the guy behind the counter asked for my NITROX card. When I showed my Instructor card, he refused to accept it and said, "sir i need to see your Nitrox card". I asked to see his manager, who Immediatly filled my tanks while we laughed about what happened. Some people are just uneducated.

I carry my trimix card. Had a guy in Bonaire question whether or not it was good for a nitrox fill, so I told him to just give me trimix without any helium in it. He thought about it for about a second and busted up laughing ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Jaydubya
May 19th, 2011, 02:32 PM
It's nothing to do with boats but PADI (and perhaps some other recreational agency) Cavern cards are not always accepted for cavern diving or to meet the prereqs for some Intro to Cave courses.

azchipka
May 29th, 2011, 01:02 PM
I have been denied at a few locations due to the agency that issued the card. This occurs most commonly when the person checking the card have not heard of the agency.

I have also denied cards myself due to the agency that issued the card being one i never heard of.

If the card is laminated and looks like it was made at home I will deny it unless I can contact the certification agency for verification.
If the agency has no website and no contact information for verification I will deny it.
If the picture on the card does not match what you look like and you have no other photo ID I will deny it.

A instructor friend of mine actually made his own cards at home with absolutely insane certification titles like Underwater Manatee Hunter just to see how many shops would take it. He has only been denied a couple of times.

Jim Lapenta
May 29th, 2011, 01:12 PM
Some agencies do not put pictures on cards. My YMCA, SEI, CMAS, and NAUI cards do not have pictures. If it's a card I do not recognize it's easy enough to just ask a few questions and see them in the water once -even if it;s a swimming pool - to know if they are a diver. When I was sending out emails to familiarize the dive world with SEI I received a number of comments about strange cards - especially from Europe - showing up. A few of those comments came from shops in the Keys. All they did was a short interview and checkout dive. Verifying via website is also not always possible with some CMAS certs, SEI also does not yet have it, and just the time differences when a phone call would find no one in the office. I'd say that most agencies also do not have online verification of individual divers. Some of the bigger ones do but that also does not mean the person just verified as having a card knows how to dive.

Best thing to do when you run into this is find another op, boat, or shop. If they are not able to determine if someone is a diver within 15 minutes of questioning or in the water observation you don't want to use them anyway.

Thalassamania
May 29th, 2011, 01:29 PM
Jim understands reality and azchipka would do well to learn from his approach. Actually, I have been using my cardboard, laminated, University of California Research Diver card (expired on 1 November 1974 to boot) since I received it and have never had a single problem with boat access, tank fills, etc.

fisheater
May 29th, 2011, 02:04 PM
I have been using my cardboard, laminated, University of California Research Diver card (expired on 1 November 1974 to boot) since I received it and have never had a single problem with boat access, tank fills, etc.

Naturally. Who's gonna mess with a grizzly ole Bear?

Akimbo
May 29th, 2011, 06:46 PM
Some agencies do not put pictures on cards. My YMCA, SEI, CMAS, and NAUI cards do not have pictures. ....

NAUI will now put photos on replacement cards. I am not sure if it is normal for newly issued cards.

https://www.naui.org/replace_lost_card.aspx

Vassilis Vlachopoulos
May 29th, 2011, 06:54 PM
I carry my trimix card. Had a guy in Bonaire question whether or not it was good for a nitrox fill, so I told him to just give me trimix without any helium in it. He thought about it for about a second and busted up laughing ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I've got a good one too : Once on a liveaboard in the Red Sea my tec (TDI Deco procedures) card was refused. They wanted an AOW. I suggested, as an alternative, my Advanced Nitrox (IANTD). It was accepted, on one condition : I should / could ONLY dive with Nitrox, throughout the liveaboard (plain air was not good enough for me ...). Luckily, all dives were shallow !

Gilldiver
May 29th, 2011, 07:09 PM
Naui Scuba Diver is equal to Padi OW Diver. PADI Scuba diver is equal to Naui passport diver. So yes, Mr Johnson will be able to dive anywhere, and I'm sure he did in over 30 years of being a diver.

I only have 4 certs, my original "SCUBA Diver" from 1979, A NITROX card from January or February 1993 (it was the first NITROX class held in CT, perhaps in New England), My Advanced Diver from 1995, and My TDI tri-mix from 2008. I did my first tri-mix dives in the summer of 93. I just was in a place and time where there was a lot of advancement in the first use of non-air gasses and the groups of wreck divers I dove with were doing this stuff before there was certification for it. It was only many years later when, as a traveling diver, I was having problems getting fills etc. in an area that I did not know or didn't know me. On just about all of these occasions It was a quick talk, and perhaps a reference to some other diver that was a mutual acquaintance got me the dive, but sooner or later I figured I just had to spend the $$ to get the card.

Oh, I do have a 5th card, my DAN card that says I joined in 1986 with a member number under 1200. Dan Orr got me to sign up at about 2AM in the Sea Rovers party suite after god knows how many beers, at the time DAN stood for Divers Accident Network, not Diver Alert Network.

drbill
May 30th, 2011, 11:51 AM
The first time I used SCUBA (winter of 1961-62) NAUI was just a few months old and PADI wouldn't be formed for another 4-5 years. We didn't realize anyone had to be certified to dive. If we did, where would we go in the depths of the Midwest? It wasn't until 1969 when I moved to Catalina that I discovered I had to be certified and went with L.A. County because it had the best program in SoCal. If you really want good training, try the ADP (Advanced Diver Program). Since my original LAC c-card was paper, I only carry a color xerox copy of it when I travel.

http://www.starthrower.org/images/c-card-f.jpg

MDJ
June 9th, 2011, 01:17 PM
I'm not an expert by any means, but I would tend to think that the main advantage to having the same cert from different agencies would be gaining exposure to the different teaching methods from different agencies. I believe, but can't swear to it, that when I finished my OW cert in MX, the folks I was diving with would let you get two cert cards at the same time if you passed the tests for both agencies, I.E. SSI and a PADI cert. I didn't do it, but in retrospect, if it really was an option and not something I made up in my own little head, I probably would have, just for the heck of it.

Kristopher

I originally went throught the Y boot camp course in college but the OW dives got postponed a semester and I never got my certification. Later I went through the PADi course and the shop manager was a NAUI instructor. At the end we took both tests and got both certifications. I'm still more proud of my Y accomplishments though.

STwill
July 8th, 2011, 05:42 PM
You know, around here is you wave an AmEx around, you're likely to be asked to produce a REAL card...

In all honesty, it is better to have one of each(at least Visa and MC). I have been to a lot of places that don't accept AMEX, and a handful of ones that will only accept one of the other two. An example would be on my recent flight back from Cozumel when I upgraded to 1st class.

coldwatercanada
October 24th, 2011, 04:00 PM
only place i heard of is cuba refusing padi certs cause there american

Tom Smedley
October 24th, 2011, 04:18 PM
If they deny your PADI, NAUI, SSI, CMAS, etc card just show them your VISA or your AMEX certification card. That will usually suffice.....

gypsyjim
October 25th, 2011, 08:42 AM
If they deny your PADI, NAUI, SSI, CMAS, etc card just show them your VISA or your AMEX certification card. That will usually suffice.....

Franklin's image works wonders in most places too. IJS

NetDoc
October 25th, 2011, 10:03 AM
I was told 4 years ago when I started diving that I might not be allowed to dive at a dive center different from my agency cert card. There are a ton of myths perpetrated by well meaning albeit misguided instructors. "Only get our certs, because others might not be accepted when you travel!" "Narcosis is when you offer your regulator to a fish! I've seen it happen!" "You have to learn tables to understand decompression theory!" "A snorkel is essential safety equipment!" "Back inflate BCs will drown you!" I could go on, but the real problem is that they try to scare you into doing things their way. If something sounds patently unreasonable: it probably is.

Jill from Phoenix
October 25th, 2011, 01:13 PM
Snorkels and tables are patently unreasonable.....is a little extreme

Thalassamania
October 25th, 2011, 01:14 PM
It's just another NetDoc excursion into the realm of logical fallacies.:D

Scott L
October 25th, 2011, 01:33 PM
Snorkels and tables are patently unreasonable.....is a little extreme

What's a snorkel? :dontknow:

gypsyjim
October 25th, 2011, 02:36 PM
What's a snorkel? :dontknow:

Like split fins, one of those pieces of seriously unsafe pieces of old fashioned dive gear that will probably instantly kill you if you are foolish enough to try using it? ;)

the main purpose of a snorkel always seemed to be as a large squirt gun

Jill from Phoenix
October 25th, 2011, 03:44 PM
Like split fins, one of those pieces of seriously unsafe pieces of old fashioned dive gear that will probably instantly kill you if you are foolish enough to try using it? ;)

the main purpose of a snorkel always seemed to be as a large squirt gun

I have excellent aim with my squirt gun...must be all that practice

boulderjohn
October 25th, 2011, 03:50 PM
I could go on, but the real problem is that they try to scare you into doing things their way. If something sounds patently unreasonable: it probably is.While I agree very much with the general concept, I think for the most part the person stating the myth sincerely believes it. As human beings, one of our innate failings is that we tend to believe what we are told. If we somehow hear one of those myths, we repeat it without thinking, no matter how silly it seems if we give it some thought.

And you forgot to mention how a DM will leap in the water in a frantic attempt to save you if you push your mask up to your forehead.

NetDoc
October 25th, 2011, 04:03 PM
It's just another NetDoc excursion into the realm of logical fallacies.:D Oops, I forgot Thal's favorite: "You'll die if you dive the Pacific with a weight integrated BCD!" :rofl3: :rofl3: :rofl3:

Thalassamania
October 25th, 2011, 04:08 PM
I never said that, not even something similar, but then why start confusing yourself with reality at this late stage?

NetDoc
October 25th, 2011, 04:13 PM
While I agree very much with the general concept, I think for the most part the person stating the myth sincerely believes it. Its passed down from Instructor to student much like "Computers rot your brain!" People with agendas and strong opinions often stretch the truth and reality to make their point. They may or may not fully believe what they are saying, but they want to win the argument. Currently we have one individual bent (soon to be literal) on proving that bounce dives are normal and a good idea. While some would have us simply censor such drivel, it serves as a great sounding board for responsible divers to discuss how to dive safely and within sane limits. Without such candid discussion, these myths would have a far wider audience. Reasonable people have no problems discerning reasonable discussions and rejecting unreasonable claims.

Thalassamania
October 25th, 2011, 04:37 PM
... People with agendas and strong opinions often stretch the truth and reality to make their point. They may or may not fully believe what they are saying, but they want to win the argument. ...Hmmm, yah think?:D:D:D

gcarter
October 25th, 2011, 08:22 PM
Its passed down from Instructor to student much like "Computers rot your brain!" People with agendas and strong opinions often stretch the truth and reality to make their point. They may or may not fully believe what they are saying, but they want to win the argument. Currently we have one individual bent (soon to be literal) on proving that bounce dives are normal and a good idea. While some would have us simply censor such drivel, it serves as a great sounding board for responsible divers to discuss how to dive safely and within sane limits. Without such candid discussion, these myths would have a far wider audience. Reasonable people have no problems discerning reasonable discussions and rejecting unreasonable claims.


Hmmm, yah think?:D:D:D

Get a room you two!

:D :D :D :rofl3: :rofl3: :rofl3:

NetDoc
October 26th, 2011, 07:24 AM
We've got an entire forum! :D So you know, I had already PMed Thal to let him know that it was just a bitOfun at his expense. :D I told him that so I didn't accidentally start "World War Thal".... which I also thought was punny. Hey, I laugh at my own jokes only cuz no one else will! :D

NWGratefulDiver
October 26th, 2011, 07:47 AM
Its passed down from Instructor to student much like "Computers rot your brain!"

Hmmmm ... I know exactly where that one comes from. It has nothing to do with computers, yanno ... and everything to do with the tendency of people to accept data without making an effort to understand what it really means, or why it matters.

There's nothing wrong with computers ... and quite a lot wrong with relying on them to do your thinking for you.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

NetDoc
October 26th, 2011, 08:11 AM
Hmmmm ... I know exactly where that one comes from. Me too... and I have found that it has made its ways to the Keys, but the instructor making the statement had no idea of its origins and was using it all wrong. The funny part? When I told him the origin was UP and what it was in reference to, he told me I was wrong and should do a bit of research to get my facts straight. :rofl3: Guys like this are always priceless to talk with and he regaled me with lots of stories about his daring do and how he single handedly saved countless students. I almost pointed out that properly trained, students shouldn't need saving, but why? Its impossible to reason with unreasonable people. The point is, once a pithy saying expands past the original circle of influence, the inference shifts a bit. Like the bit about giving your regulator to a fish. The first instructor I heard it from stated that narcosis was precisely NOT that. His divemaster that became an instructor told one of his classes the exact opposite. After his class I pulled him aside and told him that wasn't a good way to teach narcosis. He didn't believe me either until he called the instructor trainer and got straightened out. No, I don't do that often, but Tom is a good friend. Friends don't let friends teach stupid. :D

Its my opinion that fear, like anger and disparagement, is an enemy of learning. Trying to scare your students into submission is no better than an angry tirade or terse ridicule. True understanding comes with patience and careful reasoning. I want my students to come back to me for training because they had fun and were challenged and not because I scared them with some myth about the competition or their agency.

drbill
October 26th, 2011, 08:51 AM
My original cert back in the 1960s was through Los Angeles County. When I traveled outside the region, some ops were skeptical about the card (and its age). I frequently had to undergo check-out dives. While in Australia I decided to get a PADI AOW card (even though my LAC card went through Rescue). What triggered that? The instructor at the dive op in Cairns not only recognized my LAC card immediately, he called it a "museum piece."

I generally use my LAC whenever I dive and if the dive op questions it, I pull out one of my PADI cards.

Rick Murchison
October 26th, 2011, 09:16 AM
You might, given that "Scuba Diver" doesn't mean scuba diver anymore... "Scuba Diver" is the "new" moniker for what is essentially a resort course, half an "Open Water Diver."
From PADI...

Scuba Diver

http://www.padi.com/scuba/uploadedImages/Padi_Courses/Diver_Level_Courses/View_All_PADI_Courses/Scuba_Diver/Thai07_0517_TS2DivOnshore.jpgPADI Scuba Diver Course

Short on time and long on the urge to become a certified diver? The PADI Scuba Diver certification might just be for you. This course requires less time than the PADI Open Water Diver (http://www.padi.com/scuba/padi-courses/diver-level-courses/view-all-padi-courses/open-water-diver/default.aspx) course, covering only the first three of five sections of knowledge development (http://www.padi.com/scuba/scuba-diving-guide/start-scuba-diving/scuba-certification-faq/default.aspx), the first three of five pool sessions, and the first two of four open water training dives, resulting in a limited certification. Particularly if you expect to go scuba diving primarily in the company of a dive guide or if you have limited time to devote to scuba certification, consider becoming a PADI Scuba Diver.



Rick
Do you think I would have any problems with this?

http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp179/Gilldiver/mics/FirstCertCard.jpg

NWGratefulDiver
October 26th, 2011, 09:37 AM
PADI has a habit of taking terms from other agencies and making them mean something less than they originally meant. "Master Diver" is another such term. Both the YMCA and NAUI were teaching Master Diver courses that had actual content when PADI sniped the term and turned it into a marketing event.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

gypsyjim
October 26th, 2011, 09:40 AM
You might, given that "Scuba Diver" doesn't mean scuba diver anymore... "Scuba Diver" is the "new" moniker for what is essentially a resort course, half an "Open Water Diver."
From PADI...




Rick

My original Y cert from '70 simply said Scuba Diver too.

Same words, but a whole different meaning.

Rick Murchison
October 26th, 2011, 09:53 AM
My original Y cert from '70 simply said Scuba Diver too.

Same words, but a whole different meaning.No joke! The closest equivalent to a 1970 YMCA Scuba Diver card from PADI would be Master Diver with a little mild deco thrown in.
Rick

Jill from Phoenix
October 26th, 2011, 10:28 AM
I would dare to say that a PADI card from the 1970's meant something much different back then than it does today too.

Jill from Phoenix
October 26th, 2011, 10:31 AM
PADI has a habit of taking terms from other agencies and making them mean something less than they originally meant. "Master Diver" is another such term. Both the YMCA and NAUI were teaching Master Diver courses that had actual content when PADI sniped the term and turned it into a marketing event.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

NAUI is STILL teaching a Master Diver course with actual content....and actual dives too. And for me, it's also a marketing event.

NWGratefulDiver
October 26th, 2011, 10:51 AM
NAUI is STILL teaching a Master Diver course with actual content....and actual dives too.

I know .. I teach the class. My point was that the term had a meaning before PADI ever decided to use it to mean something else.


And for me, it's also a marketing event.

Fair enough ... but it still bears little resemblance to the PADI definition of the term ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Jill from Phoenix
October 26th, 2011, 11:02 AM
Perfect! I just wanted to make it clear for anyone not familiar with it.

Don't you love it?

Jill from Phoenix
October 26th, 2011, 11:04 AM
You know you could give your students a little beanie or patch for completing the master diver challenge too.... :D

Akimbo
October 26th, 2011, 02:03 PM
PADI has a habit of taking terms from other agencies and making them mean something less than they originally meant. "Master Diver" is another such term. …

I agree with your assessment of PADI’s even more onerous application, but all recreational groups are guilty. To the best of my knowledge the term originated and was copied from the US Navy where it meant a great deal. I personally feel the use of this title for rookie amateurs demeans those who worked most of their career to earn the coveted US Navy Master Diver pin. A lot of us have known US Navy Master Divers and most wouldn’t win personality contests. But I have never met one that made me think twice about trusting them with my life.

A friend sent an SDI Master Scuba Diver card so I could avoid hassles when traveling. Neither of us felt that even that more qualified name is appropriate given that a 12 year old with 50 dives, all of which could be supervised, can qualify.

Aside from the Navy issue, such marginal requirements demean the value of the card and the organization that issues it. Even if you are a collage swimmer or experienced freediver, how much can anybody “Master” in 50 dives? Several years and perhaps 500-1,000 unsupervised dives at least takes them out of the rookie category.

Thalassamania
October 26th, 2011, 03:26 PM
As the person who used the term "Master Diver" when I wrote NAUI's standards I need to make several points:
I had named the course, "Master Sports Diver," in deference to the Master Divers (USN) that I knew.

I developed the NAUI Master Diver program under contract from NAUI. It was intended to provide all the diving skills and knowledge that were expected (back then) of a NAUI Instructor except for the NAUI administrative details and the teaching theory stuff. The idea was that a NAUI Master Diver could become a NAUI Instructor by just adding those two modules. The NAUI Master Sports Diver program was specifically designed to exceed the CMAS Three Star standard.
PADI went and used almost all the NAUI terms, one course down in the their sequence, e.g., PADI's "Advanced Open Water" was roughly the same as NAUI's Sport Diver (OW II).
PADI's Master Diver was always just a vanity card.
A few years ago NAUI did the same thing as PADI, applying the Master Diver name to the the Advanced Diver Standard that I had previously developed.

Jill from Phoenix
October 26th, 2011, 04:10 PM
As the person who used the term "Master Diver" when I wrote NAUI's standards I need to make several points:
I had named the course, "Master Sports Diver," in deference to the Master Divers (USN) that I knew.

I developed the NAUI Master Diver program under contract from NAUI. It was intended to provide all the diving skills and knowledge that were expected (back then) of a NAUI Instructor except for the NAUI administrative details and the teaching theory stuff. The idea was that a NAUI Master Diver could become a NAUI Instructor by just adding those two modules. The NAUI Master Sports Diver program was specifically designed to exceed the CMAS Three Star standard.
PADI went and used almost all the NAUI terms, one course down in the their sequence, e.g., PADI's "Advanced Open Water" was roughly the same as NAUI's Sport Diver (OW II).
PADI's Master Diver was always just a vanity card.
A few years ago NAUI did the same thing as PADI, applying the Master Diver name to the the Advanced Diver Standard that I had previously developed.


Thal:

Ok, I understand that OW1= SD, OW2=Adv, Adv=Master
But I'm not understanding what was taken out of the present Master class, that would 'downgrade' it from past programs.
If it presently has all our highest dive theory/academics, what's missing in today's NAUI Master Diver?

NetDoc
October 26th, 2011, 04:26 PM
what's missing in today's NAUI Master Diver? All that macho Navy Demolition Diver crap. :D

The shift has been from a program that was highly influenced by the military to one that is geared towards having more fun. They often refer to it as "dumbing down" while I refer to it as "funning up".

Akimbo
October 26th, 2011, 04:46 PM
Thal, maybe you can expound on this. I understand that Bret Gilliam refused to use the term “Master” in any of the certifications when he controlled TDI — for the same reasons of deference you expressed. After he sold, SDI/TDI/et al they were functionally required to adopt the term in their certifications for some kind of inter-agency acceptance. I don’t recall the organization but does CMAS coordinate such things? If not them, is there a governing or advisory body that would?

FYI, for others: CMAS (http://www.cmasamericas.com/), formally Confédération Mondiale des Activités Subaquatiques also known as “The World Underwater Federation”.

Thalassamania
October 26th, 2011, 05:39 PM
Thal:

Ok, I understand that OW1= SD, OW2=Adv, Adv=Master
But I'm not understanding what was taken out of the present Master class, that would 'downgrade' it from past programs.
If it presently has all our highest dive theory/academics, what's missing in today's NAUI Master Diver?
The number of dives was, I believe, reduced, as were skill performance objectives. The written exams ... which used to be identical to the NAUI Instructor exams, were revised and the Prep Course that was the bridge from Master Diver to Instructor was scrapped.

All that macho Navy Demolition Diver crap. :D

The shift has been from a program that was highly influenced by the military to one that is geared towards having more fun. They often refer to it as "dumbing down" while I refer to it as "funning up".There never was ANY influence from the military on the Master Diver Course or it's standards. I was never in the military, neither were any of the people whom I learned from, in fact, we had rejected all harassment drills and such decades before NetDoc started diving. So ... with all due respect, there never was any macho Navy Demolition Diver crap in the Master Diver course, not from day one. If you observed such it was added to the curriculum by instructors who did not know how to use the curriculum, with was sufficiently challenging all on its own. I would appreciate your identifying FROM THE STANDARDS any items that featured such, "macho Navy Demolition Diver crap."

Thal, maybe you can expound on this. I understand that Bret Gilliam refused to use the term “Master” in any of the certifications when he controlled TDI — for the same reasons of deference you expressed. After he sold, SDI/TDI/et al they were functionally required to adopt the term in their certifications for some kind of inter-agency acceptance. I don’t recall the organization but does CMAS coordinate such things? If not them, is there a governing or advisory body that would?

FYI, for others: CMAS (http://www.cmasamericas.com/), formally Confédération Mondiale des Activités Subaquatiques also known as “The World Underwater Federation”.I have never been able to decipher what was going on in Bret's brain, so I'll not try now at the this great distance. I suspect that "X"DI, which started off as a NITROX and then Technical only agency wanted to have something to be the analog of the CMAS Three Star ... ask DOPPLER, he should know. CMAS does not require that such a thing exist, but I'm sure the folks at "X"DI felt that they were not competitive without it.

Akimbo
October 26th, 2011, 06:00 PM
All that macho Navy Demolition Diver crap. :D

The shift has been from a program that was highly influenced by the military to one that is geared towards having more fun. They often refer to it as "dumbing down" while I refer to it as "funning up".

Anytime a course of any kind is developed there is a dumbing down relative to those who innovated, pioneered, and/or cobbled diverse information sources together. That can be a great thing and I absolutely benefitted from it throughout my life. It is a good thing that first grade arithmetic classes are dumbed-down or even the future Einsteins wouldn’t see second grade.

The place where funning-up and dumbing-down collide is when the same simplifications that are essential in first grade prevail through calculus. I have seen diving students told “never stop breathing” in order to forgo decidedly un-fun aspects of barotrauma. I appreciate that telling diving students that “holding their breath on ascent will cause their lungs to explode in their chest and you will die a horrible death” is bad for business. Unfortunately, the rule of “never stop breathing” seems easily forgotten in minor emergencies.

A similar collision occurs in the compromise between swimming tests suitable for BUD/S (Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL) training and no swim test at all. After all, anyone with functioning limbs can swim with fins. The problem is fins make many functional non-swimmers deathly afraid of a loose fin strap and they enter the water primed for panic, as-in half their brain left onshore.

I didn’t go through harassment dives in my initial Scuba training, but was a much better diver after them in Navy Scuba school (also nothing like BUD/S). I am not suggesting incorporating them into recreational training but I believe that funning-up has gone too far resulting in divers that are fundamentally uncomfortable and leave the sport. I increasingly believe that the industry would be better off making the basic diving course include Open Water, Deep Water, and Nitrox; partly for the depth of knowledge and partly for the time in and out of the water for a lot of important stuff to sink in.

I believe the industry needs lessons for dive shops on selling a more expensive diving course rather than depend on sales gimmicks more akin to drug dealers. Every instructor I have ever met would be much happier if they did. Another missing piece is well produced training videos that make a lot of boring and dry crap interesting and memorable. Not just "talking heads" with a few primitive illustrations and props.

Gilldiver
October 27th, 2011, 06:42 AM
No joke! The closest equivalent to a 1970 YMCA Scuba Diver card from PADI would be Master Diver with a little mild deco thrown in.
Rick

When I got that card in 1979 we had to show that we could work the US Navy air tables (all we had both for tables and gas) quickly and accurately. This included working the DECO tables as we were prepared for what-if's. We were also run through where the tables were known to be most critical and how to pad them to the next depth and time especially in the bends depth range of 60 to 90 feet. This is the depth range where most divers get into trouble and where going past your NDL has the most impact to the deco schedules. A little shallower or deeper and 2 to 3 minutes extra just don't impact you as greatly.

NetDoc
October 27th, 2011, 08:10 AM
Anytime a course of any kind is developed there is a dumbing down relative to those who innovated, pioneered, and/or cobbled diverse information sources together. Nothing causes myopia quite like nostalgia. It allows the self indulgent to participate in the worst kind of bathos imaginable. Progress is then perceived as some sort of regression rather than appreciated for its quiet efficiency that comes from a relentless evolution. Rather than pontificate long and hard about how things were somehow "better" in the old days, just show us how you teach NOW. If we like what we see, we'll emulate it. There is no need to denigrate the new methodologies. We get that you don't understand or appreciate the need for change, but we don't understand the need to incessantly remind us just how superior you think you are. [/rant]


I believe the industry needs lessons for dive shops on selling a more expensive diving course rather than depend on sales gimmicks more akin to drug dealers. Every instructor I have ever met would be much happier if they did. Another missing piece is well produced training videos that make a lot of boring and dry crap interesting and memorable. Not just "talking heads" with a few primitive illustrations and props. I'll be giving three presentations through Aqua Lung on how to do this utilizing social media. "Social Media and Your Business", "Social Media and Efficiency" and "Social Media: Turning Lemons into Lemonade". [/shameless self promotion] Well produced and marketed FREE videos can go a long way to improving a business' bottom line.

NWGratefulDiver
October 27th, 2011, 08:36 AM
Nothing causes myopia quite like nostalgia. It allows the self indulgent to participate in the worst kind of bathos imaginable. Progress is then perceived as some sort of regression rather than appreciated for its quiet efficiency that comes from a relentless evolution. Rather than pontificate long and hard about how things were somehow "better" in the old days, just show us how you teach NOW. If we like what we see, we'll emulate it. There is no need to denigrate the new methodologies. We get that you don't understand or appreciate the need for change, but we don't understand the need to incessantly remind us just how superior you think you are. [/rant]


Can't say that I read that into anything Akimbo said ... an my radar's usually pretty sensitive to nostalgia tripping. In fact, I think he made some pretty interesting points ... some of which I agree with. Where we run into problems (as usual) is in generalizations that don't necessarily apply to all programs or those who teach them. But let's be honest, Pete ... a great many people who pass their OW class and receive C-cards are obviously frightened in the water ... and frightened people aren't having fun. I think one of the most significant reasons why so many people drop out of scuba so soon after getting certified is because they are only taught enough to scare the crap out of themselves ... and when they do, they decide to use their discretionary dollars and precious vacation days doing something else.

Students are all individuals, who each learn at their own pace. I commonly have students who need more than the prescribed dives in order to learn how to become comfortable in the water. I don't see that as a failure on my part or theirs ... I see it simply as a need based on how they learn, and what preconditions they need to overcome in order to adapt to an environment none of us were ever designed for.

Fun comes when you're comfortable doing something. I think the successful instructor factors the evaluation of diver comfort into the successful completion of the class objectives. And that is, I think, the concept that Akimbo was trying to convey.

If so, then I agree with him.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

NetDoc
October 27th, 2011, 09:13 AM
I was actually AGREEING with his assessment and amplifying it, Bob. People who give birth to a concept, ideology, idea, product, certification or the like are often blinded to its actual shortcomings due to nostalgia induced myopia. As an instructor, I have turned out a few "frightened" students, and it caused me to rethink and reevaluate how I taught. In fact, I make a point to evaluate all of my classes based on the final product. There are a few things that I see as completely outdated like requiring snorkels on an OW student. I have streamlined my course to accentuate the core skills that I see are needed for my students to be comfortable and safe in the water while having the maximum amount of fun. Rather than treating any skill or methodology as a sacred cow I view each with a critical eye to see if it promotes fun, comfort and safety.

Akimbo
October 27th, 2011, 12:26 PM
Nothing causes myopia quite like nostalgia. It allows the self indulgent to participate in the worst kind of bathos imaginable. Progress is then perceived as some sort of regression rather than appreciated for its quiet efficiency that comes from a relentless evolution. Rather than pontificate long and hard about how things were somehow "better" in the old days, just show us how you teach NOW….

If you took that from my post, that was not my intent. I am also not sure I fully understand your reply to Bob. Here is my current thinking: Progress is rarely a smooth curve up and forward. The primary purpose of macho Navy Demolition Diver crap in training never had anything to do with diving. It was about keeping people alive when others are trying to kill them. Not much of that in our sport, excluding Mother Nature herself.

There is an important aspect of longer training programs that the laudable goal of funning up is currently compromising — time to think and understand. Understanding at a gut level translates into divers that feel safe and comfortable, thus able to have fun and continue to spend money.

That is the primary reason I favor combining Open Water, Deep Water, and Nitrox into Scuba 101. I wouldn’t say there is a fear of the unknown in the new divers I have met, more like a fear of how much they realize they don’t understand. They adhere to a few simplified rules that they barely comprehend the reasons for. I believe that these divers would be more comfortable if they understood more. Regurgitating information on a test is not understanding. This is based on many questions I hear on long boat rides.

I also believe that a one-size fits all class-schedule is inappropriate. There is a lot more a new diver must contend with in Maine versus Florida. The additional facts aren’t that much greater, but the environmental distraction is huge. It is more about the ability of people to process and integrate than the foreign environment itself.

I also believe that the efficiency of presenting the factual aspects can be dramatically improved, in all education environments. We have a bunch of fairly good teachers saying the same thing over and over with a white-board and arm gestures… diving instructors and physics professors. I believe that very well-produced interactive computer-based videos that are full of graphics, in-situ scenes, and props to demonstrate a point in many different relatable settings will prepare diving students to formulate questions for classroom sessions. Also, definitely more fun. That is the best use of student and instructor’s face-time. I don’t think it should be eliminated because interaction with a human instructor and the class cements concepts that might otherwise be missed.

Some people here take offense to comments about the “merit badge” system. I first heard the phrase from several independent diving instructors. They describe it to me as a marketing technique for their clients (the dive shops that sign their check). It isn’t a bad economic model, at least in the short term. I appreciate competitive pressures, difficult retail economics, and making payroll. I also see industries that invest in their sales staff for long term gain. This conundrum is not the fault of instructors; it is the inability of dive shops to sell training.

Rick Murchison
October 27th, 2011, 12:36 PM
... I didn’t go through harassment dives in my initial Scuba training, but was a much better diver after them in Navy Scuba school (also nothing like BUD/S) ... funning-up has gone too far resulting in divers that are fundamentally uncomfortable ... the industry would be better off making the basic diving course include Open Water, Deep Water, and Nitrox; partly for the depth of knowledge and partly for the time in and out of the water for a lot of important stuff to sink in.

I believe the industry needs lessons for dive shops on selling a more expensive diving course rather than depend on sales gimmicks more akin to drug dealers...Hear! hear!
If I were the Scuba training God I'd reinstate one "harassment drill" immediately - the "valve shutdown; diver has to turn it back on" drill. Every year there is at least one death from a diver jumping in with gas off (or barely on) and being unable (whether physically unable or never trained to do it) to simply reach back and turn on the gas. Totally inexcusable.
As for the longer course, all of us in the instructing business recognize the shortfalls of the "bring-em-in-&-spit-em-out" courses these days, and we do as much to put meat in the programs as possible. But the fact remains that folks "just want to have fun" - and cheap. So instead we see the continuing march towards meatless courses (like these new "Scuba Diver" courses), and an ever increasing drop-out rate. Penny wise and pound foolish.
Rick

awap
October 27th, 2011, 12:55 PM
Hear! hear!
If I were the Scuba training God I'd reinstate one "harassment drill" immediately - the "valve shutdown; diver has to turn it back on" drill. Every year there is at least one death from a diver jumping in with gas off (or barely on) and being unable (whether physically unable or never trained to do it) to simply reach back and turn on the gas. Totally inexcusable.
As for the longer course, all of us in the instructing business recognize the shortfalls of the "bring-em-in-&-spit-em-out" courses these days, and we do as much to put meat in the programs as possible. But the fact remains that folks "just want to have fun" - and cheap. So instead we see the continuing march towards meatless courses (like these new "Scuba Diver" courses), and an ever increasing drop-out rate. Penny wise and pound foolish.
Rick

Valve drills for single tank recreational divers would be a nice skill even if it is nothing more than a confidence builder. But since they are already being taught to go to their buddy in the event of a gas problem and a CESA as a backup, I'm not sure a third option is at all necessary. In fact, since it would probably be taught as the first option to chose in some cases, it could even be counter-productive if it delays the other 2 options. So the real teaching challenge may be more of when to take such an action rather than how. And I'm not sure what the answer to that is for a new diver.

gypsyjim
October 27th, 2011, 01:58 PM
Hear! hear!
If I were the Scuba training God I'd reinstate one "harassment drill" immediately - the "valve shutdown; diver has to turn it back on" drill. Every year there is at least one death from a diver jumping in with gas off (or barely on) and being unable (whether physically unable or never trained to do it) to simply reach back and turn on the gas. Totally inexcusable.
Rick


Valve drills for single tank recreational divers would be a nice skill even if it is nothing more than a confidence builder. But since they are already being taught to go to their buddy in the event of a gas problem and a CESA as a backup, I'm not sure a third option is at all necessary. In fact, since it would probably be taught as the first option to chose in some cases, it could even be counter-productive if it delays the other 2 options. So the real teaching challenge may be more of when to take such an action rather than how. And I'm not sure what the answer to that is for a new diver.

Such a simple skill, which could go so far in easily preventing heartache.

Sadly, buddies can be seperated , especially with new divers doing entries from a boat. I believe that the simple act of being able to reach back and turn on your own gas is a skill that should be taught almost before the student ever once enters the deep end of a pool.

From what I have seen I do not think most new divers are even aware that they CAN do this self correction in the water.

Rick Murchison
October 27th, 2011, 02:12 PM
...From what I have seen I do not think most new divers are even aware that they CAN do this self correction in the water.Most of 'em can't, because they've been trained to position the tank too low to reach it, and haven't been trained how to raise the tank so they *can* reach it when the tank's positioned too low.
Hell, I'd take a better than even bet that half the non-tech rated OW instructors can't turn their own tank valves underwater.
Rick

Akimbo
October 27th, 2011, 02:17 PM
…If I were the Scuba training God I'd reinstate one "harassment drill" immediately - the "valve shutdown; diver has to turn it back on" drill…

The definition of harassment dives is pretty broad and often a loaded phase. Again, my history in the Navy was on the salvage side of diving, not combat. Most people understandably see video of harassment dives used in both disciplines as mindless and cruel with the intent of “weeding out” the undeserving. That was my view as a young sailor dreading going through it (which is many times easier than what combat divers experience). I understood later that the weeding-out aspect was the very bottom on the list. Allowing people to discover that they can survive adverse events was the objective. That allows problem-solving to displace panic, which is the ultimate killer.

Valve shutdowns and a few mask yanks probably don’t meet the threshold for harassment dives of people who have watched the History Channel. I dove for 8 years in the 1960s before Navy Diving School so was relatively comfortable compared to most of my classmates. There was a marked difference in confidence in everyone before the final harassment dive and after (contrary to many beliefs, the harassment was slowly introduced early in the class).

So, if you define harassment as creating environments to discover one’s abilities and apply what they have learned, I fully agree. Unfortunately it is extremely labor intensive and seriously un-fun unless executed very well and in bit-size pieces. I think that we can all agree that the end result is very desirable. I won’t even pretend to suggest the best way to get there in the recreational environment. However, it is also foolish to dismiss harassment dives based on incorrect perceptions without finding a method to replace the result.

I also question the efficacy of the technique in the general population. I suspect it works best when dispensed to high testosterone driven individuals with an under-developed sense of self-preservation. This is not a criticism or a compliment. Only an observation that people like this/us/me exist and are wired differently than at least half the rest of the population.

Akimbo
October 27th, 2011, 02:42 PM
…From what I have seen I do not think most new divers are even aware that they CAN do this self correction in the water.

Sadly, this and Ricks comments are consistent with my observations. I suspect that the vast differences in human experiences are not adequately compensated for. The majority of the male-dominated diving community, especially in the earlier days, had more shared experiences than today. Sure a high pressure cylinder is no big deal to someone who has been around welding or even paint-ball guns. I doubt my English teacher understood the difference between a Scuba cylinder and a dry fire extinguisher. Sure it seems like something you can teach in a few seconds. But being calm enough to hold your breath, reach back, and twist a valve is a pretty complex interaction.

That’s not so easy when you are wearing a lot of heavy crap that feels really strange, cold water hits your face, you are sinking, are surprised when there is nothing to breath, and the whole idea of compressed air is somewhere between a new concept and friking magic.

I have no idea how to implement it but grouping people in tailored diving classes based on swimming ability, life experience, and confidence levels would be a wonderful innovation. This is an interesting conversation.

NetDoc
October 27th, 2011, 10:05 PM
If you took that from my post, that was not my intent. As I stated: I amplified what you said about the "inventor" of any course, etc. They have bought in often to the neglect of any other possibility.


QeHVYuRnIjY

Akimbo
October 27th, 2011, 11:14 PM
As I stated: I amplified what you said about the "inventor" of any course, etc. They have bought in often to the neglect of any other possibility…

I guess that is outside my experience. The early Scuba diving innovators predated me. The innovators, those that were my heroes, had no interest or involvement in diver training.

I was fortunate to be taught by someone who loved diving, was a mechanical engineer in real life, and taught himself by reading the 1952 and 59 Navy Diving Manuals and the Compleat Goggler. He didn’t have a military diving background and bore the scars on his eardrums from the now classic mistake of wearing ear plugs. I was very fortunate and related well to him.

It is human nature to become “contaminated” by familiarity. It does not matter if it is an innovator, engineer, or a marketing department. Once you work with a problem long enough you lose sight of what is common knowledge or intuitive to others. After all, we each experience a different “reality” as seen through our eyeballs and processed by our brains. No matter how much we try, what our brains conclude is influenced by what is already in there… right, wrong, irrelevant, and technically correct.

This can be Scubaboard’s greatest value, if we allow it. Sure it can get boisterous and combative. But it can also be enlightening. You have a powerful collection of people with diverse experience who are primarily motivated by the love of diving — not the business of sport, commercial, manufacturing, retail, training, or travel diving. Just diving.

I think it could become the greatest source of guidance for all aspects of the recreational industry. Let’s face it; these businesses exist to make a profit by delivering what we want. All we have to do is help each other figure that out so we can tell them.

Jill from Phoenix
October 28th, 2011, 01:57 AM
The number of dives was, I believe, reduced, as were skill performance objectives. The written exams ... which used to be identical to the NAUI Instructor exams, were revised and the Prep Course that was the bridge from Master Diver to Instructor was scrapped.
.

Thal -

What was the number of dives required for Master? The current minimum is 8.

The official 'Instructor' examination has Teaching Theory, Business of Diving, Legal Aspects of Diving, and Standards and Policies. I would say they end up testing for dive theory, but officially, all the physics, physiology, equipment, decompression, tables, etc. is tested at the master diver level.

The Prep program is still in existence. It's an absolute requirement to enter ITC if they haven't been up through the NAUI ranks of Assistant Instructor and Divemaster.

I love talking to the old school members and picking their brains. From your old post, I gathered that you helped write NAUI courses?

Thalassamania
October 28th, 2011, 02:26 AM
Back in the 1980s, Paul Heinmiller and I did a full revision of all NAUI standards from Skin Diver up through the ITC, this was a multi-year project that involved first meetings with the membership all over the country and Canada. We then prepared a set of Proposed Standards that were circulated to all members with a questionnaire, and after analysis, and meetings in most of the Branches, we put together a final set of standards. When we started there was Skin Diver, Open Water I, Open Water II, Advanced, Rescue, Asst. Instructor, Divemaster and Instructor. When we were done the structure was essentially what you see today.

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