Appropriate???

[Fouremco]

During a recent group boat dive, the DM leading our group brought a spear gun to hunt Lion Fish during the dive. The majority of the eight (?) divers were experienced, but there was at least one young lady who had just completed her OW cert at the resort. In addition to the spear gun, the DM was also handling the reel and line for the dive float/flag.

My first question is whether it is appropriate for a DM to be hunting while leading a group, not matter what the level of divers' competency. I realize that Lion Fish pose a growing problem and should be culled if not eradicated in the Caribbean, but I'm not sure that this should be done while leading a dive. Unless it's a hunting party! :)

The second question: was he over tasked? It seems to me that a DM needs to devote his attention to the divers he is leading, and even handling the float can be a (minor) distraction. Add on the active seeking out and spearing of fish along the way, and I'd think that there was far too little attention being paid to the group at times.

Seems wrong to me, but maybe I'm being to critical.

[merxlin]

You might be interested in this thread: eel-attack-cozumel-feeding-lionfish (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/372421-eel-attack-cozumel-feeding-lionfish.html)

[fire_diver]

I guess it would depend on what you NEED from a DM. The MX laws require a DM be on all the dives in the park. Thier typical role is to point out any cool critters that might get missed, and counts heads back on the boat. Personally, all I NEED from a DM if to explain whats below the boat, and then let me dive my own dive. I don't like or need a babysitter.

As for the "new" diver, if they feel like they need personal supervision, then they should hire a personal DM.

[TSandM]

I totally agree with fire diver. I do not view the dive guide (DM or not) as a babysitter. If you are not capable of making the dive, don't do it -- don't overface yourself with the idea that some random guy employed by a shop is going to bail you out if you fail to monitor your gas or can't control your buoyancy.

Whether a given guide is capable of managing navigation, a dive float and a speargun is an entirely different question. Our guides in Coz didn't drag floats -- they shot a bag at the end of the dive instead. Therefore, they would have had their hands free to hunt lionfish during the majority of the dive.

[seaducer]

As stated above, I have no problem with the DM not being a nanny on any dive, unless they are hired for exactly that reason.

As to whether he/she was over tasked, I can't answer that as I don't know the DM, but I would suspect from what I have observed in the Caribbean, they are pretty solid divers. Prolly could have read a book while dragging the float, shooting fish, and still managed to not get lost and keep an eye on everyone else as well.

[saxplayer1004]

I like the DM's here. Go down, tie the boat into the wreck, come up and stay out of the way. No one in the water unless something goes wrong. That's what I feel DM's should be. They give briefing on the way out of what's down there and what to look out for, but aren't babysitters. In the tropics I understand the concept of guides, especially on the reefs, but they shouldn't have to babysit you. If you aren't capable of being an independent buddy, you have no business diving... Obviously that will never happen again, but that's my thoughts

[Fouremco]

You might be interested in this thread: eel-attack-cozumel-feeding-lionfish (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/372421-eel-attack-cozumel-feeding-lionfish.html)

Thanks, I missed this one. Interesting thread.

[Token]

Hmmm...so far all the replies have come from very experienced divers....

As a rookie myself, I'd prefer that a divemaster leading the group I'm in pays all his attention to leading the group. OTOH, if it's laid out in the pre-dive planning [or in the initial arranging for the dive] that the DM would be doing other things, I guess I wouldn't mind too much. Lots of variables in the situation...

[seaducer]

Hmmm...so far all the replies have come from very experienced divers....

As a rookie myself, I'd prefer that a divemaster leading the group I'm in pays all his attention to leading the group. OTOH, if it's laid out in the pre-dive planning [or in the initial arranging for the dive] that the DM would be doing other things, I guess I wouldn't mind too much. Lots of variables in the situation...

I am not trying to be confrontational or start another derailed thread, however if you have an OW card from a recognized agency, you paid for training to make you capable of diving without supervision.

Please do not expect the DMs to be there specifically to watch over you and keep you safe, that is not what they are doing. If you feel you still need professional supervision, hire a DM to dive with just you and your buddy.

[Fouremco]

I totally agree with fire diver. I do not view the dive guide (DM or not) as a babysitter. If you are not capable of making the dive, don't do it.

Couldn't agree more. I'd rather my buddy and I be left to do our own dive, but circumstances (this was a resort dive) sometimes dictate that a guide is imposed even on the most experienced groups of divers.

My primary issue was whether or not killing lionfish is appropriate for a guide. Having now read the thread cited by merxlin, it's obvious that this is becoming increasingly frequent, although the jury is still out on its appropriateness.

[Fouremco]

Please do not expect the DMs to be there specifically to watch over you and keep you safe, that is not what they are doing. If you feel you still need professional supervision, hire a DM to dive with just you and your buddy.

In general I would agree with you seaducer, but the dive in question was at a resort where "resort certifications" and new PADI certifications abound. Part of the sales pitch is safe diving under the watchful eye of experienced DM's. Thus my second issue of the guide multi-tasking with at least one newbie in the group. As a lot of new/occasional divers do use resorts of this nature, I don't think they should be excluded from consideration.

[RTee]

Just came back from Blackbeard cruises and except one night dive which was done at a brand new place, the operator did just that...tie to boat to the mooring and then let the divers go about their business. It is very easy to do when there is no current. Coz is a different ball game. Nowhere to tie and if you did you would end up with a bunch of divers spread about the coast line as there is current, very strong at time to the point you can hardly swim against it and ...

Therefore the way the DM operates there has to do with the environment. It is much easier to send six to eight divers per DM, have him or her lead the drift, shoot the SMB when team of divers reach the prebriefed gas reserve or when it is time for everybody to proceed up to the three minutes safety stop and keep the group together to facilitate control and extraction.

Having said that, I am not a keen fan of underwater feeding/frenzy sessions. While we were supposed to have a shark feeding dive on my Blackbeard cruises, it did not happen for various reasons. Nontheless, I did four or five dives in company of reef/blacktip sharks that were relaxed and just going about what sharks do normally instead of being stuck in the middle or on the edge of a mad and furious fishkabab rodeo. While I do not have much sympathy for lionfish, I think that there is a time and a place for each thing and their hunting for the sake of feeding other sea creatures during guided dive open the doors for too many unknowns...like expectancy for other creatures to be fed, somebody getting accidentally bit by whatever, somebody getting stung or scared/panic due to the erratic actions of a p....ed off/injured lionfish, divers panicking if being approached by a not so timid grouper/moray eel, etc.

When I dive, it is to observe nature in its normal settings. If I want to go on a fioshing/speargunning adventure, I will secure a charter dedicated to that very specific activity.

[RoatanMan]

.... but the dive in question was at a resort where "resort certifications" and new PADI certifications abound. Part of the sales pitch is safe diving under the watchful eye of experienced DM's....

If there was a resort course diver present, if that "DM" was assigned to be his supervisor and buddy, then yes- he was overtasked and not paying close enough attention per any standard.

If this DM was the dive boat crewman who was in the water with your group, he has only the responsibility as directed by the resort and promised to you, a certified diver.

Do not read more into the DM title than you should. DM's in paradise may or may not hold certifications of any kind, but even if they are illiterate, they are likely better in control of their herd of cats than anyone working as a DM back home with 15 patches and c-cards.

If you ask if they are certified as a DM, Oxygen use, or Rescue Diver, you'll get an answer. The real question is... what is their assigned responsibility?

You bring up a new phenomenon in recreational warm water diving- divers are becoming more and more focused on Lionfish hunting. There was a time when noob divers wanted to bring their u/w cameras on their open water portion of their cert dives. Many new divers take on too much to handle, and very early on.

DMs hunting not only might hamper their observational skills in regards to their cat herding duties, but they diminish the enjoyment of the guest divers because they are not showing the paying divers all of the interesting cool stuff.

Contrary to many posters here who eschew the assistance of a DM in spotting critters, I absolutely follow them like a dog. Sometimes, I find as much or more than they do, but 2 more trained eyes are always better than just me alone.

As for divers carrying a pointed stick in my vicinity? A good DM, if he must, I wouldn't be afraid. A guest diver with a three-pronged skewer? I'll be waiting... way over there.

[h90]

I am not diving if anyone in a group has a spear gun.
Killing Lion fish to protect the nature is ridiculous. It has an impact on the population similar like you kill 3 mosquito in your room and hope to make Asia mosquito free with your actions

[fire_diver]

Actually, it has made a noticeable impact on the numbers found. No we can't ever get rid of them permanently but if we control them, we can keep the other reef fish numbers up.

[DevonDiver]

If the novice diver mentioned was a 'resort diver' then I think the DM has a duty-of-care to supervise her. In any other circumstance, why wouldn't her designated buddy be sufficient?

[g1138]

Killing Lion fish to protect the nature is ridiculous. It has an impact on the population similar like you kill 3 mosquito in your room and hope to make Asia mosquito free with your actions


Actually, it has made a noticeable impact on the numbers found. No we can't ever get rid of them permanently but if we control them, we can keep the other reef fish numbers up.

All but 1 small population of California sea otters were wiped out way back when. I think we could exterminate local populations of lion fish if we REAAALLY wanted to. :D

[theduckguru]

All but 1 small population of California sea otters were wiped out way back when. I think we could exterminate local populations of lion fish if we REAAALLY wanted to. :D

Reproduction rates between mammals and fish are quite different. A female lion fish can lay up to 15,000 eggs.

If a charter says they are providing a DM, I think the DM should perform those duties for the customers.

[diverrex]

I don't see it being inconsistent to be the DM and hunt Lionfish, in certain areas it's becoming the norm. I have no problem with it.

[DevonDiver]

If a charter says they are providing a DM, I think the DM should perform those duties for the customers.

THis is a good point. There should be a distinct difference between the duties of a dive guide and those of a dive master.

I think it is fair to expect a dive master to perform the duties and functions that they are trained/qualified to perform.

In contrast, a dive guide really indicates nothing more than an underwater tour host.

[beautybelow]

Although the over-all feeling on Scubaboard it seems is if you are a certified diver, you had absolutely better be able to dive without supervision, this is not so much the case in the real world of resort type recreational diving.

It is my opinion that if you are being paid to be in the water with customers you should be prepared to offer any assistance if needed. That goes from showing them a juvenile spotted drum to giving them another 2 lbs of weight if they need it for a safety stop. It's just the nature of the business the way I see it.

I don't think killing lionfish should be part of the dive.

[TSandM]

I know it has been covered before (as most everything HAS) but WHAT on earth do people think the DMs should be doing? Monitoring everyone's gas? Managing their buoyancy control? Using their magical third eye to spot any problems before they occur?

Diving really is a rather simple activity. You descend, swim around, and go up. Meanwhile, you monitor your gas supply and your deco status, and stay near your buddy. It's not complicated, and honestly, NO ONE can do it for you. If you can't perform those functions for yourself, you should be doing some kind of less challenging dive. (Honestly, this is one of the reasons that I'm dubious about Cozumel for brand new divers, because I found the currents at times quite unnerving, and I was far from novice when I went there. The difference is that I had the ability to cope with being unnerved.)

But it constantly baffles me, what it is that people think the DMs are supposed to do. I suppose that if someone is incapacitated through something completely unexpected, like a venomous sting or a heart attack or stroke, the DM may be the only person in the group with enough experience to perform a rescue. But is it going to be that big a deal if someone has to get his attention away from spearfishing? A good DM should be able to switch gears very quickly.

[Jim Baldwin]

I constantly tell my new student divers and those working on advanced certifications that they are responsible for their diving. Their bouoyancy, gas, deco status. Not the divemaster.

I have made a couple of thousand dives in Cozumel and have seen my share of new divers who had difficulites with staying off the coral or mataining themselves in the water column or trying to fight the currents. I have assisted these divers when I could as have the divemasters.

I do not believe that a DM in MX or anywhere else has a duty of care to provide personal one on one assistance when he is leading a group of 8 to 15 people. If he/she sees a problem and can respond that's great. A diver needing more weight, low of air, OOA. But it is always the diver and his buddy's responsibility to manage these things.

The exception would be if that DM has been hired by an individual. I have been both. I have hired a DM and been a paid DM. In both cases personal attention to the indiviudual was the priority.

In Cozumel all diving is drift diving and it is procedure for the divemaster to carry and shoot a marker buoy at the end of the diving.

Shooting a fish while looking for critters is fine. The fewer lionfish the better.

[herman]

I see this from a different perspective. I am assuming this was Coz so I am basing my response on that but other locations would be similar. First off, at least on Coz, the dive buoy/ SMB is only deployed at the end of the dive so there is no task loading as such during most of the dive and no lion fish to hunt once off the bottom. If anything, watching a group is easier while hanging from a line.
Secondly we need to define "hunting". Actual hunting means his/her was actively searching for the fish and does require a lot of attention and focus, maybe not the best idea for a DM, esp with a new diver with him. On the other hand, if he is just carrying a spear to dispatch any fish that happen to be easy to get to, then the amount of task loading is pretty minimal. I do not define that as hunting. It may have been different where you were but that was the case with the DMs I dove with in Coz this January.
If this was a case of SMB at the end and kill a lionfish if you happen on one, then I don't see this as much task loading at all and no reason for the DM not to, even with a new diver as long as the new diver was doing OK. Any DM worth having should be capable of judging how much attention the new diver needed in the first few minutes of the dive and would have acted accordingly.

[beautybelow]

Monitoring everyone's gas?

Yes, if the diver is relatively new and not familiar with the area/profile and being navigated back to the boat by the divemaster it wouldn't hurt to check how much air the divers have from time to time.

Managing their buoyancy control?

Again, if it is a new diver or a diver who hasn't been diving for quite a while I would expect to help them with more weight during the dive if needed.

Using their magical third eye to spot any problems before they occur?

I was taught to do this with the two eyes that I have and have never needed the magical one I have saved up for my new son. Luckily, he can't read yet and doesn't know anything about it.

Seriously though...I wonder how many people's expectations of divemasters has changed since their 20th dive...50th dive...100th dive...1,000th dive.

I think that some divemasters are the unsung heros of the dive industry. They take every type of diver you can imagine. New, old (literally and figuratively), experienced not experienced. People who know absolutely everything there is to know about diving until they let the air out of their BC. People who are scared but still want to do it...and so on and so on.

How easy would it be if divers never ever ended up in a situation that was beyond their ability? Very easy.

I would like a dollar for every diver I have thought shouldn't be here...why don't they just play golf? But it's my job to deal with them when they are there. You can't just say sorry buddy, you suck. Come back when you have it figured out. No, you have to get them through it.

The lionfish thing is for me a whole other argument though. Not really what this thread has turned in to.

[bowlofpetunias]

I find it fascinating reading the expectations or lack of expectations people have for DM's, guides and boat crew. Seems to me it is very different in different areas.

The standard process in most places we have done boat dives has been.

DM gives dive brief
DM ensures everyone has buddy pairing
DM ensures everyone indicates Ok when they hit the water
DM ensures everyone indicates OK at the bottom before commencing dive
DM signals part way into the dive to determine how much gas divers have so they can decide how the dive should proceed (shorter, longer, more challenging conditions)
DM points out interesting things
DM keeps an eye out for divers in trouble or causing trouble with creatures or coral

On the boat DM checks with diver to record their bottom time, remaining air and depth according to regulations.

I've never been in the water where there were 15 divers per DM. groups of 4 to 6 seem much more common in my experience.

Most places the first dive is really a "check out dive". After that dive we normally get told "You guys are fine you can do what you want on the next dive" We normally chose to follow the DM anyway since they know the sites and where the kewl stuff is. The DM's usually wind up bringing their cameras on subsequent dives and enjoy their dives with divers who don't need to be babysat.

People say that all divers should be competent when they get out of OW but the truth is many are not. In resort and tourist destinations the Dive Operators often have a Duty of Care for divers whose training and skill levels are beyond their control. People talk about cattle car diving and not wanting to be restricted to the herd diving situations. IMHO divers need to check what expectations and procedures are before they book. If you don't like the answers don't book!

Seems to me that if this operator's website and literature talked about DM's being available to make divers feel safe they should not have to pay for a personal DM to achieve that end.

[Ana]

It seems to me that a DM needs to devote his attention to the divers he is leading, and even handling the float can be a (minor) distraction. Add on the active seeking out and spearing of fish along the way, and I'd think that there was far too little attention being paid to the group at times.

Seems wrong to me, but maybe I'm being to critical.

If I have a choice I rather not have any guide, DM or whatever title they may give them.
So if this person is forced on my dive for whatever reason, it comes down to what is their role. Do I have to follow them? Do I have to end my dive when they decide?
If the answers to either one of those questions are yes, then that guy better be paying attention to me and whoever is with me, regardless if I need them or not.

If that person is diving because regulations require to have a guide/dm around with paying customers and it is just a matter of putting a check mark in a box, then this person can take a nap on the bottom for all I care, I won't be around to see it anyways.

[D_B]

both sides of this argument are right

you are responsible for the dives you do, or decide not to do

the (if a requirement) DM on a dive is responsible for being aware of the divers around him .. that does not have anything to do with babysitting, that has to do with being a DM in the first place, his training to be a DM, and being on that dive in more than a just being a diver capacity

(I did not see any reference that the new OW diver, or that anyone on that dive needed any babysitting ..)

[Krazytomdiver]

A SPEARGUN ON A DIVE BOAT??? Not on any dive boat(s) I'm responsible for as a dive master.
As for DM duties, they start hours before the dive ,everything in between,and hours after the dive. Just my experience as a senior dive guide working in Mexico to Nicaragua and the South Pacific.

"living life without a hard bottom"
KT

[g1138]

Reproduction rates between mammals and fish are quite different. A female lion fish can lay up to 15,000 eggs.


Poop. I forgot about that :(

[seaducer]

In general I would agree with you seaducer, but the dive in question was at a resort where "resort certifications" and new PADI certifications abound. Part of the sales pitch is safe diving under the watchful eye of experienced DM's. Thus my second issue of the guide multi-tasking with at least one newbie in the group. As a lot of new/occasional divers do use resorts of this nature, I don't think they should be excluded from consideration.

If they advertised DMs specifically for mentoring new divers, and that is what was paid for, then that is what you should have received. Then I would agree the speargun should be left on the boat. The float is their job though, can't leave that behind.

OTOH this would be outside the normal operating procedures. It is quite likely that you will see those lines advertised but to be honest most DMs treat all divers as if they know what they are doing. That includes divers on their post OW class dive (who for the most part are some of the safest divers there are...

[Insta-Gator]

I am not trying to be confrontational or start another derailed thread, however if you have an OW card from a recognized agency, you paid for training to make you capable of diving without supervision.

Please do not expect the DMs to be there specifically to watch over you and keep you safe, that is not what they are doing. If you feel you still need professional supervision, hire a DM to dive with just you and your buddy.

Is there a definition from any of the certification agency's as to what the DM role is? Seems to me there's an awful lot of training (time & expense) for this person to become a certified DM. DM, Dive Master, not dive buddy, not dive guide, not baby sitter... Dive Master...Master of the Dive, person in charge, person responsible for the successful conduct of the dive (including the safety of the group, in my opinion.) So if what I'm reading is all you experienced divers want to be left alone to do your thing...let's just hope these people with DM certifications don't expect any type for tip, gratuity or other form of appreciation for their time spent spear fishing.

[saxplayer1004]

we tip because they do dive briefing before hand and tell us what's going on as far as conditions and what to expect. We tip them for tying the boat in, because that's not the easiest thing in the world and isn't my idea of fun...
Now, up here, the DM's CAN'T baby sit the dive. They'll blow NDL's before most divers can get in the water.. They act more as ship mates which is fine by me. In the tropics where they don't have to tie in necessarily, and you're on a reef it's nice to have them point stuff out, but I still maintain that you shouldn't need a Dive Master to babysit you and make sure you don't blow your NDL's, suck your gas like a Hoover, and not bounce up and down into the reef. If you can't do all three of those on your own, get out of the ocean, back in a pool and learn how to dive. You aren't a safe independent diver, and you are doing a "trust me" dive. With an instructor that may be fine, and at a resort where they are doing the resort certs, I think the instructor should be there to help you.
"The program is designed to train experienced and knowledgeable divers to organize and conduct enjoyable open water dives for certified divers."-Per NAUI's leadership manual. If you can't do the three things mentioned above you shouldn't be certified and by having to babysit those divers, then the dive is not enjoyable for everyone else. Bring an instructor, that's what they're for.

[seaducer]

Is there a definition from any of the certification agency's as to what the DM role is? Seems to me there's an awful lot of training (time & expense) for this person to become a certified DM. DM, Dive Master, not dive buddy, not dive guide, not baby sitter... Dive Master...Master of the Dive, person in charge, person responsible for the successful conduct of the dive (including the safety of the group, in my opinion.) So if what I'm reading is all you experienced divers want to be left alone to do your thing...let's just hope these people with DM certifications don't expect any type for tip, gratuity or other form of appreciation for their time spent spear fishing.

Dive masters have many roles, depending on what they are doing.

If they are supervising students or Discover Scuba clients they should be managing the dive including buoyancy, gas management and safety.

If they are leading certified divers they are going to be briefing the dive, carrying the float on a drift, navigating and pointing out stuff. Safety concerns are now the responsibility of the individual divers who are trained to manage their own dive, including ending their dive if things are not going well. We are talking about adults...right?

One of the roles of a DM is to safeguard the environment they are diving in. In this case spearing a feral species is absolutely appropriate.

Bottom line is nobody is more responsible for your safety than you are. Its your life after all, and hopefully you are the best person to look after it. If not...well no one ever said life was fair. People make poor decisions all the time and suffer the consequences.